The teleconference for the middle school state seeding meeting has been changed from tonight at 7:00 pm to Monday at 8:00 pm. All times listed are eastern.

Will the blind draw take place tonight also?

Last night went a long way in proving that seeding a state tournament is possible. It also should be noted that it so much easier to accomplish when there are head-to-head match-ups. 

Maybe we should make it mandatory to wrestle 2-3 in state tournaments to ensure we get head to head match ups

Maybe we should make it mandatory to wrestle 2-3 in state tournaments to ensure we get head to head match ups

 

I like the thought but dont think it would work even in doing that.  NKY teams could wrestling in state all season and not go outside of NKY.  Still could not see other kids for Head to Head match ups.  Our team travels all over the state and still dont see some of the teams/kids. 

They might not have a head to head but they surely would have a common opponent.

This has been brought up several times at the HS level.  32 man bracket is dumb and a blind draw is even dumber. But I was proposing a format to where: to be eligible for seeding at the state, you must compete in X # of (Seed Tournaments). T A (seed) tournament would be... Dragon, Raider Rumble, WCI, etc.  you get the idea.

 

But who seeds it?

The middle school Region winners coaches did a conference call each team got a chance to talk about their wrestler. We looked at head to head, common opponents, win percentage, and last years placement. In that order. I think it went really well but could have been shorter if there was a mandatory amount of in state tournaments. Region 1 has 3 big tournaments John Hardins veterans memorial, trojan at North Hardin, Battle of the Brave at Union County had on average 24 kids in a bracket, Region 2 has raider rumble, North Oldham duals, Eat Oldham had something, Region 3 Bearcat Brawl, Campbell County Duals, NKY tournament, and Region 4 has WCI. If you go to two of these events I guarantee you will at least have a common opponent. Union County was scheduled for 6 but snow cancelled Campbell County duals. Region 4 was the only one we didn't travel to but would like to.

. T A (seed) tournament would be... Dragon, Raider Rumble, WCI, etc.  you get the idea.

 

 

 

all that does is marketing for those tourneys, forces teams to go compete in them.

all that does is marketing for those tourneys, forces teams to go compete in them.

Yep, and that's a good thing. If you keep whooping the kid across town or one county over and show up to the post season with a ridiculous record.......well, people will know why.

If they have tournaments that teams are forced to wrestle in they will have to give each section of the state a tournament. Eastern Ky ( Johnson Co. maybe) would have to host one of these tournaments. Along with western Ky (Union) and one in Central Ky there are a host of teams that can host that one. But I don't see a reason to try and in force a set number of tournaments you havento attend.

It doesn't have to be required or enforced, just understood.  If you don't have head to head or common opponent, you don't have seeding criteria.

It's unfair to try and enforce that as a common knowledge rule.

I really don't know what to think about seeding wrestlers at state tourney.  I can see it making for better finals matches, but I guess I like seeing the underdog having a shot to make it also.  I like leaving things to chance with the blind draw.  Thats what makes the Sweet 16 fun to watch and a team like Shelby Valley having a chance to win the state tourney.  I always hated playing Highlands in the football playoffs and I'm sure Johnson Central feels the same way, but when it comes down to it, you had your shot and being the runner up or 3rd or 5th is not what you want.  There is only one champ and thats what every kid wants to be.

 

I think seeding benefits the powerhouse teams and is more about trying to earn team points to win the team title.

 

I agree teams should travel around to see better competition and beating up on the same team every week pads your stats, but some teams can't get a invite to some of these tourneys because they do not have enough kids or if they decide to host a tourney and a big school commits to come, they end up backing out the week before.  This really sucks when officials have been hired and the host team loses money because of cancellations.

 

I do like Bluesdad's idea of hosting maybe 4 big events in 4 areas of the state in order for everyone to have a shot to wrestle the best competition possilbe.  It would be so big though it would have to be a 2-day event.  Something good to debate after the season.

There are good tournaments within a reasonable distance from everyone. As a first year team, we attended 4 of the events listed above. Two were about an hour away. One was 2 hours and one was 3.5. It's doable.

Johnson County attends great tournaments every year, mostly in Wv and Va but also sometimes in Oh. Just because we dont wrestle up in northern Ky doesn't mean were not wrestling tough competition. In fact the tournaments we went to in St. Albans, Summersville, and Grundy are as good as any in this state.

Johnson County attends great tournaments every year, mostly in Wv and Va but also sometimes in Oh. Just because we dont wrestle up in northern Ky doesn't mean were not wrestling tough competition. In fact the tournaments we went to in St. Albans, Summersville, and Grundy are as good as any in this state.

Maybe they are the best tournaments anyone has ever seen, still doesn't give you common opponents in KY. I love Coach Matney, but I have heard crying about that mountain region for 20 plus years. Big school, small school, Inez, Paintsville, come here, can't go there, etc! Get on a bus and travel like everyone else. If a bus isn't provided, jump in a car.

Where are you getting "enforced"?? No head to head or common opponent no criteria. Records will still account for something, but probably third or forth criteria on the list.

 

It would be unfair if and only if you didn't have the info. You can wrestle anywhere you choose.

Johnson County attends great tournaments every year, mostly in Wv and Va but also sometimes in Oh. Just because we dont wrestle up in northern Ky doesn't mean were not wrestling tough competition. In fact the tournaments we went to in St. Albans, Summersville, and Grundy are as good as any in this state.

I have no doubt that you all have a tough schedule. I'm just saying that it wouldn't be difficult to attend one large in state event to assist with seeding. They aren't all in NKY. We didn't go to any up north but still had lots of head to head matches with ranked kids by attending 4 tough tourneys: John Hardin, North Hardin, Union and Woodford. Each one of those events was full of state qualifiers.

There's no way, or nothing anyone can do to force anyone to wrestle certain tournaments on certain places. NO WAY.

Coach Matney success speaks for it's self. So I dont think because some folks in northern Ky are upset some of the middle school kids didn't have common opponents is going to make him switch his way of coaching. It surely isn't going to make him change the tournaments he sends his teams to.

So if you guys want to get on a bus or a car and head souteast come on. The road travels the same both ways in these here mountains ...lol.

I have no doubt that you all have a tough schedule. I'm just saying that it wouldn't be difficult to attend one large in state event to assist with seeding. They aren't all in NKY. We didn't go to any up north but still had lots of head to head matches with ranked kids by attending 4 tough tourneys: John Hardin, North Hardin, Union and Woodford. Each one of those events was full of state qualifiers.

I'd love to hit one of those tournaments and hopefully we can in the future. My only argument is this. Coach Matney as had a great deal of success. His way of coaching and the tournaments he travels to has been proven to get his wrestlers were they need to be. So I don't think he will change it because of middle school.

No body is forcing anybody to do anything.

No body is forcing anybody to do anything.

By saying the head to head criteria will be #1 is sort of forcing it. But I don't think it will make Johnson County change their way of doing things, IMO.

And thats OK. I kinda think you understand though.

Yeah we understand, whatever makes NKy crew happy.

No doubt that Coach Matney is an extraordinary coach. He is one of my favorite of all time. He did a heck of a job at Sheldon Clark and is definitely putting Johnson Central on the map. As a matter of fact, I would be willing to bet if he were at a more centrally located school, he would have already doubled his success. But that is really neither here nor there. The bottom line is JC has the option to travel or not. Just don't complain if lil Johnny isn't seeded as high as you'd like when there is no common opponents. One solution would be to start hosting a big home tournament that gains a reputation that other teams would want to make the trip to compete in. No since in making that trip if it isn't worth it.

I'd love to hit one of those tournaments and hopefully we can in the future. My only argument is this. Coach Matney as had a great deal of success. His way of coaching and the tournaments he travels to has been proven to get his wrestlers were they need to be. So I don't think he will change it because of middle school.

Johnson Central did see many of the NKY teams at Harrison County right after Christmas.  The only big player missing from NKY that event was Walton.  There were close to 30 state Qualifiers from NKY there, so there should have been a few head to head matchups (or at least "A" beat "B" who beat "C" situations).  And that's just from one average sized tourney.  For the most part I would think there is enough info out there to seed.

Yeah you guys tried to do Gamble wrong in the seeding last night. Tried to seed him a 3 when he's the returning runner up in that weight class.

Yeah we understand, whatever makes NKy crew happy.

Really? Don't go there. Is NKy prominent in KY wrestling? Absolutely. But no different than Union Co running western ky wrestling. Coaches have built strong programs from top to bottom and continue to put in the time and effort for success at all levels. When you have numbers and success and coaches are active and participate regularly in the administrative process they have a strong voice. I've heard the joking about a NKy mafia. Funny funny. The fact is we are highly competitive and try to beat the snot out of each other on the mat. But in 2 months I guarantee I will be on a mat on Brown Rd in Verona, Ky training kids from all around NKy. We are in it to help any and all kids that are willing to work no matter what school they go to.

The bottom line is this. Does NKy have a major voice in MS wrestling right now? Absolutely. Much of the board is from this area. As soon as anyone else is ready to step up and put in the hundreds of hrs it takes to keep this organization moving in the right direction please send me an email. We welcome the opportunity for someone to take our "job" and allow us to spend more time with our paying jobs, with our teams, our kids, and our family.

Yeah you guys tried to do Gamble wrong in the seeding last night. Tried to seed him a 3 when he's the returning runner up in that weight class.

Were you on the call? If so, were you listening during the 140 discussion? Gamble was unanimously given the benefit of the doubt and awarded the #1 seed solely based on being the returning runner up.

Is your comment about NKy related to Blue's seeding? It was clear cut common opponent. 55 pound Spencer Moore beat Blue. Trevor Frietsch beat Spencer Moore. No other criteria to discuss. Clear cut. No NKy bias. No mafia impact. Just wrestling.

Is your comment about NKy related to Blue's seeding? It was clear cut common opponent. 55 pound Spencer Moore beat Blue. Trevor Frietsch beat Spencer Moore. No other criteria to discuss. Clear cut. No NKy bias. No mafia impact. Just wrestling.

and the #4 from region 3 (who went 1-4 against Frietsch) also beat Blue in a not so close match.

some teams can't get a invite to some of these tourneys because they do not have enough kids

Union County hosted Battle of the Brave and invited everyone. We took teams with extras, teams with 3 wrestlers, and even unattached wrestlers. We got great hotel rates and even put a couple teams up. We had an average of 24 wrestlers per bracket and was out by 530. Last year I was at a smaller school and still got my two kids into Bearcat Brawl and WCI most of the time you just have to ask. Just one or two tough in state tournaments helps get kids ranked appropriately.

While I agree we should all support and seek out these competitive tournaments I don't think it should be required. But as has been mentioned you can't expect to get seeding consideration without some good in state wins.

We have stepped up throughout the state with some great MS events that attract great national level talent. Hopefully we can continue that progress and get the same momentum at the youth level.

Seeding is not perfect nor will it ever be. Look at how they seed some of the national level tourneys from MS to HS.  Or even Track for that matter.  Cream will always rise to the top, for someone to say it would be great for an underdog to make it to the finals, the underdog would in fact upset all of the top seeded wrestlers to the finals, not the other way around. 

 

At least the MS coaches are giving it a shot. The KHSAA will not even consider it, like always, its lopsided. But to take on the "seeding" is a major feat in itself.  The same people complaining about the seeds would be the same people complaining about the draw, if in fact they received the raw end of the deal. 

 

Best of luck to all MS wrestlers, great to see level of competition rise to the occasion and for the coaches, admin and wrestlers for making this such a problem.  When they introduce the 32 man bracket at the HS, some weight classes just had to weigh in to qualify for state, at the HS level.  What a joke that was.  You guys should be happy to have those problems to deal with, and attack them for the best of MS wrestling in the state.

Really? Don't go there. Is NKy prominent in KY wrestling? Absolutely. But no different than Union Co running western ky wrestling. Coaches have built strong programs from top to bottom and continue to put in the time and effort for success at all levels. When you have numbers and success and coaches are active and participate regularly in the administrative process they have a strong voice. I've heard the joking about a NKy mafia. Funny funny. The fact is we are highly competitive and try to beat the snot out of each other on the mat. But in 2 months I guarantee I will be on a mat on Brown Rd in Verona, Ky training kids from all around NKy. We are in it to help any and all kids that are willing to work no matter what school they go to.

The bottom line is this. Does NKy have a major voice in MS wrestling right now? Absolutely. Much of the board is from this area. As soon as anyone else is ready to step up and put in the hundreds of hrs it takes to keep this organization moving in the right direction please send me an email. We welcome the opportunity for someone to take our "job" and allow us to spend more time with our paying jobs, with our teams, our kids, and our family.

well said!!!!!!!!

some teams can't get a invite to some of these tourneys because they do not have enough kids

Union County hosted Battle of the Brave and invited everyone. We took teams with extras, teams with 3 wrestlers, and even unattached wrestlers. We got great hotel rates and even put a couple teams up. We had an average of 24 wrestlers per bracket and was out by 530. Last year I was at a smaller school and still got my two kids into Bearcat Brawl and WCI most of the time you just have to ask. Just one or two tough in state tournaments helps get kids ranked appropriately.

I will agree and say that in the past two years, the tournaments at John Hardin, North Hardin, Bearcat Brawl, Union's "Brave" Tourney, WCI, Harrison, and a host of other tournaments I'm not referencing by name have let me bring as few as 1 wrestler to them.  I've never asked to enter more than 3-4 wrestlers in any tournament in the past 2 years, and I've almost always been accommodated.  The weekends that ARE tougher on the smaller clubs/teams are the weekends that only duals events are running.  But even then, I have usually managed to find overflow matches for my kid(s) by working with the folks hosting the duals.  Only on a very few weekends over the past two years have we been completely shut out and had no in-state venue for matches, or found that an event (almost always a duals/teams event) would simply not work with us.  "You just have to ask" has usually proven to be the case.  No matter the small size of your group, you're going to be able to get into 1-2 of these larger events, if you really want your kids to participate.  Plenty of coaches in this state are willing to do whatever it takes to help kids get matches in their event.

If you require a team to attend certain number of in state tourneys to get seeded.  That still solves nothing.  If a team does not met the requirements and they have studs that should be seeded.  When they are blind drawn into the touney they become bracket busters.  You may have them wrestling the next best in the early rounds, just as if there were no seeding.

 

To properly seed a touney the coaches must be in agreement that they are trying to get the best wrester the top seed and the 2nd best the 2nd seed and so on.  Most of the time it becomes politics.  After the first couple of seeds are given then the coaches look at weather they have a beter chance with the 1st or 2nd seed. and so on.  Or they look at how they can get more team points for thier team or take some away from another.  (I have played this game myself in the past)

Is your comment about NKy related to Blue's seeding? It was clear cut common opponent. 55 pound Spencer Moore beat Blue. Trevor Frietsch beat Spencer Moore. No other criteria to discuss. Clear cut. No NKy bias. No mafia impact. Just wrestling.

Is your comment about NKy related to Blue's seeding? It was clear cut common opponent. 55 pound Spencer Moore beat Blue. Trevor Frietsch beat Spencer Moore. No other criteria to discuss. Clear cut. No NKy bias. No mafia impact. Just wrestling.

He didn't beat Blue the ref did. Moore didn't score a point his self against Blue. Not 1 single point did he create by him self. The only way he beat Blue was the ref called 3 crap tight waisting calls against him. So did your son get awarded the match? Sure. But did he beat Blue his self NO he didn't. Now Spencer is a great wrestler but he was handed the match that day. Also at the end Blue shouldve at the very least been awarded an escape and the match shouldve went to overtime. But the ref was terrible. You run into that it's part of the sport.

I really wished names of kids wouldn't have been brought into this. I didn't mention anyone's name because they are kids.

Were you on the call? If so, were you listening during the 140 discussion? Gamble was unanimously given the benefit of the doubt and awarded the #1 seed solely based on being the returning runner up.

Were you on the call? If so, were you listening during the 140 discussion? Gamble was unanimously given the benefit of the doubt and awarded the #1 seed solely based on being the returning runner up.

YES

Only after you guys tried to award him the 3seed then another coach had to step up and say he deserves the 1 because he was runner up last year.

Really? Don't go there. Is NKy prominent in KY wrestling? Absolutely. But no different than Union Co running western ky wrestling. Coaches have built strong programs from top to bottom and continue to put in the time and effort for success at all levels. When you have numbers and success and coaches are active and participate regularly in the administrative process they have a strong voice. I've heard the joking about a NKy mafia. Funny funny. The fact is we are highly competitive and try to beat the snot out of each other on the mat. But in 2 months I guarantee I will be on a mat on Brown Rd in Verona, Ky training kids from all around NKy. We are in it to help any and all kids that are willing to work no matter what school they go to.

The bottom line is this. Does NKy have a major voice in MS wrestling right now? Absolutely. Much of the board is from this area. As soon as anyone else is ready to step up and put in the hundreds of hrs it takes to keep this organization moving in the right direction please send me an email. We welcome the opportunity for someone to take our "job" and allow us to spend more time with our paying jobs, with our teams, our kids, and our family.

Do you help kids? Sure and you need to be commended for that.

But when all these by laws and rules are put into place whatever is best suited for NKy is what is passed. Its a numbers game, and you guys have the numbers.

and the #4 from region 3 (who went 1-4 against Frietsch) also beat Blue in a not so close match.

Well you are correct. Did I say Blue was going to win his weight class at middle school state? Did I even say he would win a match? No, but I think he will win a match.

Let's dissect your comment a bit. He did lose to Pye. It was 5-3 in the third then Blue got stuck. So yes Pye beat him that day.

Frietsch beat Moore 7-6. Moore beat Blue 3-2. But in the Blue Moore match Moore didn't score a single point his self. The ref awarded every point on crap tight wasting calls. Something Blue has not been called for all year or ever except by that ref. So it looks to be pretty close to me.

Is your comment about NKy related to Blue's seeding? It was clear cut common opponent. 55 pound Spencer Moore beat Blue. Trevor Frietsch beat Spencer Moore. No other criteria to discuss. Clear cut. No NKy bias. No mafia impact. Just wrestling.

Is your comment about NKy related to Blue's seeding? It was clear cut common opponent. 55 pound Spencer Moore beat Blue. Trevor Frietsch beat Spencer Moore. No other criteria to discuss. Clear cut. No NKy bias. No mafia impact. Just wrestling.

No the comment wasn't about the seeding. After we were told that Frietsch beat Moore we got the seeding. At first we thought you were saying he got the 3 seed because he faced him at the Harrison Co tourney. Which we knew couldn't happen because Frietsch was at 80lbs that day. We didn't know they wrestled at districts. So we follow the seeding now.

Yeah we understand, whatever makes NKy crew happy.

Are you speaking for all of Johnson central when you made this silly post calling out all of nky? I am in northern ky and I find this comment childish. I have your read multiple post about nky being bias. From rangers response it sounds like you are mainly upset because your son did not receive the seed you thought he deserved. I thought it was pretty black an white when it came down to the head to head. I know as a farther you want to argue to get him the best possible seed in order to have success at the state tournament. I get it. Their must be a better way to go about this than calling out the entire nky area. I believe that their were over 20 coaches from around the entire state voting on this.

As far as seeding it will never be perfect. I believe their was a debate that involved my son mason. Sounds like there was good points made on why he should be the 1 and Brock the 2. It seems like it could have went either way. Personally I wouldn't be upset either way. When I was told about the debate my response "give him 2,3, or 4. I personally believe that Reguardless of what seed you are, you are going to have to wrestle. My point is that I have seen a lot of top seeds get knocked off early. I know from my sons trip to state last year. The cream will rise to the top. The last thing I would do is call out an entire area of the state because I wasn't happy with a decision.

I am northern ky and I have a facility at my house that is open to any wrestler that wants to come. I have had the privilege of having kids from all over the entire state showing up to train and get better. Doesn't matter what school and of course it is always free. My point is you label all of nky as bias. Maybe you should ask around and you might find that there are some people in nky that go out of their way to help any kid that wants to get better.

I wish your son and the rest of the kids that made it to state the best of luck.

Rules are rules and Points are points. Will never forget a few years back in Frankfort when John Wolseifer (one of my favorites ever in KY wrestling) nearly kept himself from a hs state championship with the exact same call by not lining up properly. That official you are calling out was one of the best you will see at the ms level. In fact he will be in Mt Sterling in a week and a half. And let me promise you this. I didn't say anything that day to get caution calls, but when the big matches are on the line I will do my part as a coach to make sure the officials are making that proper call.

And to finish my though... wins/losses are wins/losses no matter how they come or what state they are in.

But when all these by laws and rules are put into place whatever is best suited for NKy is what is passed. Its a numbers game, and you guys have the numbers.

What bylaws and rules are best suited for one part of the state? Coaches cards? Maybe increasing hwt to 240? Requiring wrestlers to have a physical?

Are you speaking for all of Johnson central when you made this silly post calling out all of nky? I am in northern ky and I find this comment childish. I have your read multiple post about nky being bias. From rangers response it sounds like you are mainly upset because your son did not receive the seed you thought he deserved. I thought it was pretty black an white when it came down to the head to head. I know as a farther you want to argue to get him the best possible seed in order to have success at the state tournament. I get it. Their must be a better way to go about this than calling out the entire nky area. I believe that their were over 20 coaches from around the entire state voting on this.

As far as seeding it will never be perfect. I believe their was a debate that involved my son mason. Sounds like there was good points made on why he should be the 1 and Brock the 2. It seems like it could have went either way. Personally I wouldn't be upset either way. When I was told about the debate my response "give him 2,3, or 4. I personally believe that Reguardless of what seed you are, you are going to have to wrestle. My point is that I have seen a lot of top seeds get knocked off early. I know from my sons trip to state last year. The cream will rise to the top. The last thing I would do is call out an entire area of the state because I wasn't happy with a decision.

I am northern ky and I have a facility at my house that is open to any wrestler that wants to come. I have had the privilege of having kids from all over the entire state showing up to train and get better. Doesn't matter what school and of course it is always free. My point is you label all of nky as bias. Maybe you should ask around and you might find that there are some people in nky that go out of their way to help any kid that wants to get better.

I wish your son and the rest of the kids that made it to state the best of luck.

I didn't call anyone out. No I dont speak for all of Johnson Co. I'm one person with one opinion. You call it a silly comment amd it may very well be that. Let me say I'm sorry if I offended anyone with the comment. I see how it may have. But every time a vote of any sort goes down it seems to benefit the NKy teams. It seems Eastern Ky is a after thought when it comes to decisions concerning middle school wrestling. But that is just my opinion. So like I said in apologize for that comment.

No im not upset about seeding. At first we were told the 3 seed got that seed because he finished higher at a tourney that he and Blue both were at. But he wrestled 80lbs there and not 75lbs so we were a little confused. Then it was explained to us that there was a common opponent that took place during districts that we didn't know about at the time. So the seeds are correct.

As far as having to wrestling everyone at some point. Blue hasnever dodged anyone and will wrestle anyone. Now will he win them all No but he will win his fair share. I believe if your winning every weekend your not going to the right places.

Also it's great that people in NKy help kids that only grows the sport. But its same here in eastern Ky. We have kids that have to be picked up for practice and taken home afterwards. Some can't afford to buy shoes, head gear, etc. for wrestling. So we help with that. There are helping hands in all parts of the state and country which is great.

Rules are rules and Points are points. Will never forget a few years back in Frankfort when John Wolseifer (one of my favorites ever in KY wrestling) nearly kept himself from a hs state championship with the exact same call by not lining up properly. That official you are calling out was one of the best you will see at the ms level. In fact he will be in Mt Sterling in a week and a half. And let me promise you this. I didn't say anything that day to get caution calls, but when the big matches are on the line I will do my part as a coach to make sure the officials are making that proper call.

And to finish my though... wins/losses are wins/losses no matter how they come or what state they are in.

I didnt say you said anything I thought you handled your self great on the mat. I didn't have a problem with anything you said or did that day.

The ref maybe a great ref but on that day in that match he blew that call period. You can say i called him out if you want but he did blow the call. We have it on film were you can look directly at the setup. Actually 2 views from to different cameras. Blue wasn't setup wrong at all. Coach Matney watched it and said they were nothing wrong with the way Blue was setup at all. Said the ref blew the call. But your right a win is a win and that day Spencer got the win regardless of how or who awarded the points.

Wins/loses are wins/ loses no matter how they come or what state they are in. Let's remember that next year in the seed meeting...lol.

What bylaws and rules are best suited for one part of the state? Coaches cards? Maybe increasing hwt to 240? Requiring wrestlers to have a physical?

Next time you call a meeting let's have it in Eastern Ky. Then the time after that let's have it in western Ky. Then well have it in NKy. That way all coaches from all districts and regions can attend and have a hand in shaping the by laws and rules. The meetings are always held where and when coaches and concerned parents from other regions can't attend. We can't just up and drive 3 hours to a meeting with work and life activites.

I know some of you may not believe this but I'm not just trying to be a pain in the butt. I love this sport and want to make it the best for all wrestlers in this state. I think for this to happen the whole state needs to have more of a voice.

So if I understand Bluesdad correctly, he's upset about his son's seed because his son was robbed of an escape point that would have sent his son's match to OT with a wrestler from Region 3 that didn't even qualify for state.  I must admit, when I first read this I was a bit puzzled as to why he might be feeling this way but when it came to my attention that his son also lost to the #4 seed from Region 3, I completely understand where he's coming from.  For his son to have been robbed of OT with a NKY wrestler that didn't make state then get pinned by a NKY kid that is a 4 seed in his region and finally for his son to be ranked lower than a NKY wrestler that won his region, there is obviously a NKY force working against him.  And we all know it isn't due to better more competitive wrestling up north.  For Pete's sake he takes his kid to WV, OH and TN so we all know that he's not afraid to travel for competitive wrestling.  Obviously, it's just due to the fact that we in KY do not provide that same level of competition so he must go out of state to escape the great force know as NKY.  Never mind that his son lost to a kid from TN 8-4 that a KY 70 lb wrestler beat by more than 10 points.  That KY wrestler isn't from NKY but he's been there plenty enough over the last year that I wouldn't doubt if the NKY force may have rubbed off on him.  Any hoot, all beware.  Per Bluesdad, Region 4 has the toughest wrestlers in the state and they never get the credit for it.  I'm with him, let's all just shut up and let their wrestling tell the story.  Good job Bluesdad.  Way to fight the fight.      

So if I understand Bluesdad correctly, he's upset about his son's seed because his son was robbed of an escape point that would have sent his son's match to OT with a wrestler from Region 3 that didn't even qualify for state. I must admit, when I first read this I was a bit puzzled as to why he might be feeling this way but when it came to my attention that his son also lost to the #4 seed from Region 3, I completely understand where he's coming from. For his son to have been robbed of OT with a NKY wrestler that didn't make state then get pinned by a NKY kid that is a 4 seed in his region and finally for his son to be ranked lower than a NKY wrestler that won his region, there is obviously a NKY force working against him. And we all know it isn't due to better more competitive wrestling up north. For Pete's sake he takes his kid to WV, OH and TN so we all know that he's not afraid to travel for competitive wrestling. Obviously, it's just due to the fact that we in KY do not provide that same level of competition so he must go out of state to escape the great force know as NKY. Never mind that his son lost to a kid from TN 8-4 that a KY 70 lb wrestler beat by more than 10 points. That KY wrestler isn't from NKY but he's been there plenty enough over the last year that I wouldn't doubt if the NKY force may have rubbed off on him. Any hoot, all beware. Per Bluesdad, Region 4 has the toughest wrestlers in the state and they never get the credit for it. I'm with him, let's all just shut up and let their wrestling tell the story. Good job Bluesdad. Way to fight the fight.

What are you talking about I'm not saying anything about the seeding. The seeding is correct. The matches you mentioned were brought up so I explained what happened in them. If you wouldve read the posts you couldve understood this if you can.

Didn't say region 4 was the toughest, didn't even come close to saying that. But region 4 does have some solid wrestlers that are just as good as anyone in the state.

Didn't say NKy doesn't have good wrestling because they do.

Do we travel and wrestle anyone? Yes. Does he win all his matches no he doesn't but he does win his fair share and does quite well for his age. I'm willing to say he just as good as your son was when he was 10. So if you want to try and put my sons accomplishments down on the mat you might aswell put your sons down also. Let me ask did he win his region at 75lbs as a 10 year old? I'm guessing no. Since he's 11/12 and still at 70lbs. Your son is a great wrestler and so is my son and I will not sit by and let you make fun of all the hard work he has put into this sport to make his self better. You should be ashamed trying to belittle a Childs accomplishments on a message board.

The meetings are very seldom in a location convenient to me, or should I say US in NKy. In fact they were routinely held in Richmond hoping to get some Eastern participation. Guess what? Didn't happen. Here is the way the process works. I offer the hosting option to the coaches that consistently attend. If they bother to drive and show up I give them an opportunity to stay home. Same thing has happened with western ky. We've tried going a bit west for meetings and many of them don't make it. BUT I will give most every coach out there credit. They seldom if ever complain about the decisions that are made; they just say we didn't participate so we take what we get. Since I have been involved in MS wrestling the coaches meeting was held in NKy once. So if in fact we rotated among the regions we are well overdue in NKy. But instead we will all travel so those who complain can NOT be there.

Ranger let me say this. I think your a great guy. I've not spoken to you a lot but the times I have you have been very nice and polite. I think your an awesome coach, I mean the proof is in the pudding. I also think your in this for all the right reasons. My complaint is maybe something of an armchair QB so to speak. I know we don't have all the info and hear all the discussions. But it seems a lot of decisions are made with out our region in mind. Like the new seeding criteria. Was there a criteria for the seeding? Was it voted on? Why change the blind draw? It worked for years why change it. Some people I've spoken to seem to think it's to place certain kids certain places. I didn't get on here to complain about Blues seed. I think that was a miscommunication. I just want what's best for the kids and sometimes when I feel there was a slight toward them I get a little to aggressive. So to you Ranger and any person from NKy who thought I was attacking them I apologize.

I apologize that my point got lost in translation with my earlier post. I was in no way aiming to have a my son out did your son conversation and I never put your son down nor did I attempt to belittle any of his accomplishments. My post was an attempt to illustrate how ridicules your posts can sometimes sound, especially once all the information begins to fall into place. I apologize for not just coming out and saying that. Messages laced with sarcasm, like my previous post, often times are misunderstood. So I apologize for the sarcasm.

As for an earlier post discussing making it mandatory for our wrestlers to attend meets. I think this is a great idea on many fronts. Of course, we couldn't make it mandatory in any way other than for seeding purposes but it would provide the individuals that seed with the necessary information. It will also allow Kentucky the opportunity to showcase its wrestlers to our neighboring states. WV had several teams from OH & IN, John Hardin and Union County had teams from TN & IN. By putting these larger tournaments together and requiring that our own wrestlers attend a certain number throughout the year, we would ensure that these tournaments are filled with the best young wrestlers KY has to offer allowing us to compete with the clubs/wrestlers from TN, OH, IN & and other surrounding states that come to our tournaments. The more competitive they become the more they will grow. We are full of a lot of really good young wrestlers, some great. Lets not keep them a secret. With the relationships our friends in eastern KY have in West Virginia and eastern TN, I am certain they could put together a great tournament and pull in some strong out of state talent for us too. I have heard a lot of people talk about KY not being considered much of a wrestling state. This should put us on the map. Maybe just a small little city on the map but a growing city that's for sure.

Quote from son: dad I don't care where I am seeded, I just want to win!

Next time you call a meeting let's have it in Eastern Ky. Then the time after that let's have it in western Ky. Then well have it in NKy. That way all coaches from all districts and regions can attend and have a hand in shaping the by laws and rules. The meetings are always held where and when coaches and concerned parents from other regions can't attend. We can't just up and drive 3 hours to a meeting with work and life activites.

I know some of you may not believe this but I'm not just trying to be a pain in the butt. I love this sport and want to make it the best for all wrestlers in this state. I think for this to happen the whole state needs to have more of a voice.

As far as meeting locations, I've been to the last 3 and logged over 700 miles (as have most of the other NKY Coaches) of driving for about 6 total hours of actual meeting time.  Is it inconvenient??  A little.  But they are held on Sundays, and it is only twice a year.  And just about all the NKY coaches manage to make it.  And I can assure you, that none of the discussions that have taken place, even remotely have a NKY slant.  We don't sit around and decide how we can work over the rest of the state, or create secret handshakes designed to keep all others out.  I can guarantee, if someone from Eastern KY would offer to host a meeting, the Nky coaches will be there.

 

I can also almost guarantee a few NKY teams would travel to Eastern KY for a tourney.  The were a couple open dates on the schedule this year (January 4th and 11th) that didn't get filled until almost right before the season started, and even then a lot of teams were still looking for places to go.  Would have been a great opportunity for an EKY school to host an event.  Instead, two NKY schools stepped up and hosted events on those dates.  

 

It just surprises me how much the move to seeding the State Tourney has caused so much friction.  Every tournament I go to, I hear coaches complain about the draw some of their wrestlers get (myself included), and a move gets made to fix that in the biggest tourney of the year, and suddenly people don't want seeding.  It will make the tournament better.  I for one, am happy that we have an association that continues to try to evolve and get better, rather than sitting back and making the same mistakes over and over, because "that's how we've always done it".

"But when all these by laws and rules are put into place whatever is best suited for NKy is what is passed. Its a numbers game, and you guys have the numbers."

Maybe instead of complaining about the NKy coaches who are active participants and working hard to improve this sport for all wrestlers, you should be complaining about the coaches who don't bother to show up at the state meetings and then want to complain about the decisions that were made there.

The state meetings are open to all coaches. The dates and times are routinely posted on this site. Every coach has the opportunity to attend and share their opinions and vote on the issues at hand. The meetings are generally held in a central location as to be more convenient to more coaches. The NKy coaches are not the only coaches there. Many of the Jefferson County and surrounding area coaches are there, along with other coaches from around the state. These coaches are giving up their time to discuss the issues and try to do what is best for the kids and the sport. Every team represented there gets the same right to voice their opinion and vote. You may not know this but coaches are also allowed to mail in their votes if they are unable to attend the meeting. So every coach in this state has the opportunity to vote on all issues. If coaches don't bother to attend or mail in their votes, they have NO right to complain.

On a side note, a wise coach once told by son, "if you allow a ref to decide a match for you, you have no one to blame for the loss but yourself."

Next time you call a meeting let's have it in Eastern Ky. Then the time after that let's have it in western Ky. Then well have it in NKy. That way all coaches from all districts and regions can attend and have a hand in shaping the by laws and rules. The meetings are always held where and when coaches and concerned parents from other regions can't attend. We can't just up and drive 3 hours to a meeting with work and life activites.

I know some of you may not believe this but I'm not just trying to be a pain in the butt. I love this sport and want to make it the best for all wrestlers in this state. I think for this to happen the whole state needs to have more of a voice.

the meetings have been held at different locations all over the state

"Coach Matney watched it and said they were nothing wrong with the way Blue was setup at all. Said the ref blew the call"

Would you and coach Matney also like to blame the ref for the fact that Blue gave up a point because he didn't have his mouthpiece or will you take responsibility for that one?

Can someone answer a question for me? Why are we doing seeding? Is it to make sure the two best wrestlers make ot to the finals? If this is the theroy I dont agree. I like the blind drawl its fair to every wrestler. Go out wrestle who ever steps on the mat with you beat them and advance or go home.

Can someone answer a question for me? Why are we doing seeding? Is it to make sure the two best wrestlers make ot to the finals? If this is the theroy I dont agree. I like the blind drawl its fair to every wrestler. Go out wrestle who ever steps on the mat with you beat them and advance or go home.

In my mind, seeding just makes sure the brackets are balanced in terms of strength, therefore producing a competitive tournament.  It doesn't ensure that the best two wrestlers make the finals.....you still have to beat your opponent to advance.  But lets face it, there is usually a pretty big gap between the top few wrestlers and the bottom few wrestlers, even at the state tournament.  And if all the talent gets stacked on one side of a bracket, it leads to non competitive matches in the finals.

Can someone answer a question for me? Why are we doing seeding? Is it to make sure the two best wrestlers make ot to the finals? If this is the theroy I dont agree. I like the blind drawl its fair to every wrestler. Go out wrestle who ever steps on the mat with you beat them and advance or go home.

What a great question bigshow78.  I would like to here a response to that.  I believe seeding is to ensure that the best teams are able to get the most team points to contend for the team title.  I don't think it benefits the individuals in the bracket, just team points.

This thread took on a life of it's own something I wasn't trying to achieve with my posts. I don't think it does the site or sport any good. It just makes grown folks post things that they probably shouldn't. But good luck to all the wrestlers around the state stay safe and wrestle hard. God bless.

Im sorry if I sound ignorant but I dont understand why there needs to be seeding. For starters the criteria is wrong. The whole common opponent thing dont make sence to me. Anybody can be beat. If a middle of the pack wrestler gos out and catches a hammer with a lucky move then then the same kid gets beat by a lower talent wrestler does that mean the lower talent wrestler

can beat the hammer. No. Besides if your only seeding the number one seeds whos to say they are the best four wrestlers anyways.

So you are saying we should never seed tournaments? If that's the case then why don't we just let the computer totally random draw the brackets. Why separate the region champs? Because it is fair and balanced. I've heard a few arguments against seeding (hard to get coaches together, not enough head to head or common opponent, records are skewed,etc) but never that random draw is BETTER. Really? So it is better if the top 2 or 3 kids in a weight are grouped together due to the luck of the draw?

As far as the criteria, head to head and common opponents are always at or near the top of the list. Returning state champs/placers and the like took care of themselves including Mr Gamble. Take a few minutes today and chat with Coach Matney. I'm sure he will confirm.

As for the idea that this was just a way to manipulate team scores that is ridiculous. My team has been rather successful under the prior format. Because it is better for the kids. Not my team or another NKy team, but better for the kids who have earned the rich for a fair and balanced bracket. Not some coach playing the lottery hoping for a cakewalk to the podium. Just glancing at the seeds it appears to me that there is a nice balance and distribution between a number of teams for top seeds and lower seeds. 11 different teams have #1s. Union co has 3. Not sure what bias that was. Hayes has 2. What? Could that be region 4? Yes. Region 4 and 1 had the most number 1s with 5 each. I guess it is helping NKy or even River City (sorry Coach Q) team scores by manipulating the seeds and not getting the 1s.

I have my own personal beliefs on the "seeding" issue. It's never been an issue in years past so why is it this year? I don't see this hurting or helping the association as a whole, so big picture not a big deal. I'm not sure how many states do this, would like to see the number on it.

 

The only issue I ever had about the state tournament was how the 1 and 3 seed from the same region were on the same side. It killed us one year when a kid got upset at Regional's and finished 3rd. As it played out he then wrestled our returning state champ and regional champ in the semi's at state and beat him 4-3. I strongly believe had the individual been on the other side we would have been in the state finals competing against him instead of taking 6th place. I'm glad that is taken care of.

 

Again why the need to seed? Not being critical just curious, do we really think this will benefit the kids or the sport in any sorta way?

So you are saying we should never seed tournaments? If that's the case then why don't we just let the computer totally random draw the brackets. Why separate the region champs? Because it is fair and balanced. I've heard a few arguments against seeding (hard to get coaches together, not enough head to head or common opponent, records are skewed,etc) but never that random draw is BETTER. Really? So it is better if the top 2 or 3 kids in a weight are grouped together due to the luck of the draw?

As far as the criteria, head to head and common opponents are always at or near the top of the list. Returning state champs/placers and the like took care of themselves including Mr Gamble. Take a few minutes today and chat with Coach Matney. I'm sure he will confirm.

As for the idea that this was just a way to manipulate team scores that is ridiculous. My team has been rather successful under the prior format. Because it is better for the kids. Not my team or another NKy team, but better for the kids who have earned the rich for a fair and balanced bracket. Not some coach playing the lottery hoping for a cakewalk to the podium. Just glancing at the seeds it appears to me that there is a nice balance and distribution between a number of teams for top seeds and lower seeds. 11 different teams have #1s. Union co has 3. Not sure what bias that was. Hayes has 2. What? Could that be region 4? Yes. Region 4 and 1 had the most number 1s with 5 each. I guess it is helping NKy or even River City (sorry Coach Q) team scores by manipulating the seeds and not getting the 1s.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument

Forget the seeding.  Separate the champs, runners-up, thirds, etc. and let the cream rise to the top.

If the cream will rise to the top then why put any effort into separating them?

Could you imagine the outrage? 

 

There are so many variables when seeding a state tournament.  (Many tournaments actually...)  Head to Head, Common Opponent, ultimately, due to regular season scheduling, some of it may come down to opinion.  Separating athletes based on their performance at the Regional level rewards their efforts in the State Tournament Series.  Separating athletes on that basis allows for a bit more black and white when setting up the brackets...as a result, we do not run into as much confusion and disagreement.  It will never be completely resolved as placing athletes based on their Regional finishes may pit the perceived top two wrestlers in the state in an early round, but it takes the opinion out of the issue.  Certainly not full-proof, but more concrete and everyone knows what they are getting in the process.

If seeding is not needed or not important why do we ever do it. Or at early season tournaments when we don't seed coaches always complain when the best kids wrestle early. By the way that affects team scoring too.

I'm just not the great concern. If you think the random draw is fine then how does seeding hurt you? It doesn't. Yes it required some extra time and effort. If you don't think it is worth it them don't participate. Pretend we are randomly drawing the bracket and move on.

Let's look at a situation. Not that we have kids at this level, but let's consider the possibility that Brock Ervin and Sean Fausz both stayed at 138. Would that be an amazing highlight match for the state finals or what? Under the spotlight. Two of the best of our generation. With a random draw they can wrestle in the quarters. Does that make sense? Does that build excitement for Saturday night in Lexington? Again we don't have anything on that level, but the state tournament is about much more than crowning a state champion. Getting into the finals is a big deal. There will always be big upsets in every tournament. That doesn't mean we should just ignore the fact that after the #1 other kids have earned their consideration as well.

Maybe I should rephrase. 

 

I suppose, by way of Regional results, there is actually some type of seeding taking place...thus, my rephrasing.  I certainly have no problem with what is currently taking place...I have no dog in this fight and even if I did, I have no leadership in the organization.  I just noticed some intensity on the thread.

 

I get that we want the best matches for the final, but as we grow that seeding process will become increasingly more difficult.  (Which I am certain you know.)  And growth is good!  And I know that having the best matches in the finals right now is a good way to grow the sport.  But we will ultimately get to the place where it may not be possible due to the sheer number of wrestlers and their diverse schedules.  Again, i think it is fine for now...just thinking forward with no criticism of current procedures.

 

A number of years ago, I remember being told of the numbers one and two ranked wrestlers having to wrestle one another in the Indiana semi-state to qualify for State.  One had to go home when he lost.  Not the most peasant of situations, but something we may see as our sport grows!      

A true "randon draw" could potentially put a Regional Champ vs Regional Champ first round!  A random draw is nothing more than the lazy way to do a seed meeting.  Kudos to the MS association and coaches around the state for stepping up and getting it done the right way.

MLee-  just out of curiosity, what makes this the "right" way?

 

What classifies "Right"? If this is the "Right" way why doesn't more follow this pattern? No way only KY can be ahead of the pack

A true "Random Draw" for the State Tournament series would be a HUGE mistake.

If seeding is not needed or not important why do we ever do it. Or at early season tournaments when we don't seed coaches always complain when the best kids wrestle early. By the way that affects team scoring too.

I'm just not the great concern. If you think the random draw is fine then how does seeding hurt you? It doesn't. Yes it required some extra time and effort. If you don't think it is worth it them don't participate. Pretend we are randomly drawing the bracket and move on.

Let's look at a situation. Not that we have kids at this level, but let's consider the possibility that Brock Ervin and Sean Fausz both stayed at 138. Would that be an amazing highlight match for the state finals or what? Under the spotlight. Two of the best of our generation. With a random draw they can wrestle in the quarters. Does that make sense? Does that build excitement for Saturday night in Lexington? Again we don't have anything on that level, but the state tournament is about much more than crowning a state champion. Getting into the finals is a big deal. There will always be big upsets in every tournament. That doesn't mean we should just ignore the fact that after the #1 other kids have earned their consideration as well.

How do you seed a wrestler who has dropped a weight class for post season and has not wrestled that class all year?  For example your 86lber who dropped to 80.  (I'll leave names out as someone mentioned earlier).  He is one of my favorite wrestlers to watch and is a great kid.  Beats my son everytime.  He probably wins that first place medal every weekend and thows it on the floor of his room because it doesn't mean a thing to him...he just wants to compete.  Great kid.

 

He placed last year, but I'm not sure if he has a head to head match with anyone other who he wrestled in districts.  Obviously IMO he should be the top #1 or at least the second #1, but how do you seed him?

 

I think most of the confusion is a lack of understanding of how the process works and people not involved just assume the NKY mafia is working toward world domination.

 

No doubt people respect you and value your opinion.  The sport is better because of you and the things you have done.  Don't let our ignorance discourage the work you are doing.

I've asked a ton of hs coaches why they won't do it. Clear and simple answer is it is too hard and the coaches can't agree on anything. I give 100% credit to the coaches involved Monday night for doing that "hard work" and giving up their limited free time to get it done. Were all of the coaches happy with where their kids fell? No way. But all professionally addressed the questions and we all worked through the issues very well. I was very impressed with our coaches. And as hard as some of us have been on bluesdad Johnson county didn't throw a fit with that result. Talked through the criteria and asked questions to understand but no major issues.

MLee-  just out of curiosity, what makes this the "right" way?

 

What classifies "Right"? If this is the "Right" way why doesn't more follow this pattern? No way only KY can be ahead of the pack

Let me ask you, would you be ok with throwing all the qualifiers in and hat and "randomly" draw matches...regardless of what they placed in the regionals?

How do you seed a wrestler who has dropped a weight class for post season and has not wrestled that class all year? For example your 86lber who dropped to 80. (I'll leave names out as someone mentioned earlier). He is one of my favorite wrestlers to watch and is a great kid. Beats my son everytime. He probably wins that first place medal every weekend and thows it on the floor of his room because it doesn't mean a thing to him...he just wants to compete. Great kid.

He placed last year, but I'm not sure if he has a head to head match with anyone other who he wrestled in districts. Obviously IMO he should be the top #1 or at least the second #1, but how do you seed him?

I think most of the confusion is a lack of understanding of how the process works and people not involved just assume the NKY mafia is working toward world domination.

No doubt people respect you and value your opinion. The sport is better because of you and the things you have done. Don't let our ignorance discourage the work you are doing.

Very good example. He actually got the 3rd #1. Yes I think he is potentially the best kid there. But as you mention when kids move weights it creates issues. But I think we don't give our coaches enough credit sometimes. We talked through their finishes and agreed upon a deciding criteria. We didn't come out where I would have liked but it was fair and I can live with it.

Ranger123...thankfully you have some gracious and accommodating coaches with whom you are able to work.  Sadly, it is not always that way.

MLee- The competitor in me say's who cares. However, I'm not an idiot and no way that is that the right way to do it.  I saw no problem with the old format whosoever. I didn't see how changing and now seeding the number one seeds improved the state tournament in any way. If this is the "right" way to do it then why haven't others adopted this same format.

 

I'm under a new screen name now but you and I have agreed on an awful lot in the past so I'm not attacking you, I understand your passion and want further insight. My opinion though, which doesn't count for much, I don't see this as a win for anyone other than the coaches involved. I see it as a way to get your kid away from another kid, and the chicken*&$^ of that aggravates me. Again I got at least a solid ten years before my little one is wrestling at the state tournament and when my kid wrestles I would like to see the organization growing and becoming better for the kids involved. 

To my knowledge they don't seed NHSCA, FILA, or any of the Cliff Keen tournaments. If you draw a stud in your first match so be it, come back and get third right?

I should clarify what I ment when I said I like a blind draw. Have four pools your #1s your number#2s your #3s and your #4s. Draw a #1 out draw#2 out #3 out then draw a #4 out. That would be the first quater of the bracket. Then repeat the process till the bracket was complete. Could a #1 and a #2 from the same region end up facing each other yes but that would be luck of the draw.

I personally like the fact that Ranger led the charge to keep evolving our middle school wrestling.  I think a lot of people have make some valid points.  I like the fact that people are willing to attempt to make changes.  No matter what changes are made or not made not everyone will be happy.  That is why their is state association meetings to take a vote.

    As far as the seeding itself it will never be perfect here in Ky or any other state.  However I think the majority of people like the process of trying to put the top kids on opposite sides of the bracket.  As long as I have been going to tournaments the brackets have always been a topic of discussion.  If I had a choice of blind draw vs. seeding I would have to go seeding.  The point I made on the my last post is that seeding is not always perfect and calling out people for teaming up to get what they want is silly.  There is no conspiracy theory.   There are to many variables that make it 100% accurate.  I would have to imagine that most of the coaches that voted feel like they got it right.  I say most.  No matter what seed those top 16 kids in each weight are I can assure you they can all wrestle.  They had to work their tails off just to have the honor to be in the state tournament.  

    I say keep moving forward with the willingness to change.  Im sure we will make mistakes but as a whole we can probably do some amazing things to make this sport grow.  Finally I say come to the meetings and meet face to face with the ideas that are so easily typed on a public forum.  Participation is the key to growth. 

What a great question bigshow78. I would like to here a response to that. I believe seeding is to ensure that the best teams are able to get the most team points to contend for the team title. I don't think it benefits the individuals in the bracket, just team points.

really I swear I think I can remember last year at the HS state tourney everyone complaining that the #1 171 lbs we had to wrestle Lane Jones in the 2nd round and got beat. That they shouldn't of ever met that early in the tourney that they should seed the tourney

MLee- The competitor in me say's who cares. However, I'm not an idiot and no way that is that the right way to do it.  I saw no problem with the old format whosoever. I didn't see how changing and now seeding the number one seeds improved the state tournament in any way. If this is the "right" way to do it then why haven't others adopted this same format.

 

I'm under a new screen name now but you and I have agreed on an awful lot in the past so I'm not attacking you, I understand your passion and want further insight. My opinion though, which doesn't count for much, I don't see this as a win for anyone other than the coaches involved. I see it as a way to get your kid away from another kid, and the chicken*&$^ of that aggravates me. Again I got at least a solid ten years before my little one is wrestling at the state tournament and when my kid wrestles I would like to see the organization growing and becoming better for the kids involved. 

To my knowledge they don't seed NHSCA, FILA, or any of the Cliff Keen tournaments. If you draw a stud in your first match so be it, come back and get third right?

 

MLee- The competitor in me say's who cares. However, I'm not an idiot and no way that is that the right way to do it.  I saw no problem with the old format whosoever. I didn't see how changing and now seeding the number one seeds improved the state tournament in any way. If this is the "right" way to do it then why haven't others adopted this same format.

 

I'm under a new screen name now but you and I have agreed on an awful lot in the past so I'm not attacking you, I understand your passion and want further insight. My opinion though, which doesn't count for much, I don't see this as a win for anyone other than the coaches involved. I see it as a way to get your kid away from another kid, and the chicken*&$^ of that aggravates me. Again I got at least a solid ten years before my little one is wrestling at the state tournament and when my kid wrestles I would like to see the organization growing and becoming better for the kids involved. 

To my knowledge they don't seed NHSCA, FILA, or any of the Cliff Keen tournaments. If you draw a stud in your first match so be it, come back and get third right?

I know you're not attacking me.  No biggie. 

 

My point is though, if you agree with the previous format (1 vs 4, 2 vs 3/ blind draw), then you agree to some level of "seeding."  All the coaches and association did by seeding the Regional champs is take it one step further from where we were.  They are trying to prevent the 2 best kids from facing each other before the finals.  My guess is most states don't attempt this because of the workload.  The wrestlers still have to show up and wrestle!  I guarantee there will still be numerous upsets!  It is not exactly the same, but its very similar to numerous events: NCAA's basketball and wrestling, NBA, NHL, Tennis, etc., NFL.   

 

At the end of the day, I believe most (if not all) participants, parents, and coaches would rather see a Fausz and Ervin match in the finals, not the semis...and certainly not the quarter finals.  The seeding process ensures that would at least be a possibility. 

The seedings are fine.  They seeded region champions 1 through 4.  

 

There is a kid that took third in his region that has beaten every other region champion.  He is not seeded.  Head to head has proven his ability but he did not at his own region tournament.  Oh well.  His job to wrestle through now.  

 

As Dutch said in an earlier post, seed them but they still have to wrestle.  My kids have wrestled in Georgia, Ohio, West Virginia this year also, but they still managed to wrestle the majority of the kids in their weight class in the state of Kentucky.  Make out of state an exception, not a rule and you will get your match-ups. 

 

Referring to last years state to get your 140 seeded but not referring to it for your light weight is kind of hypocritical.  We have all the head to heads, common opponents, tournament placings we needed from last years bracket if we need to reference more.  

 

The seeding of all weight classes turned out really well, a great tournament will take place, Rangers job will be up for re-election.....those complaining won't step up - he will be stuck with the job again and we will go into next year so the same people can complain endlessly about the NKY Mafia.  Which makes no sense because Ranger and John forced me onto their committee when I did not want it and I have probably been the biggest devils advocate for years to them, but they wanted expansion out of Northern Kentucky and a different view.

 

Good job to those that participated on Monday night and acted professionally afterwards.  To those who have allowed emotion to over ride passion on this, get your head right because seeds, previous records, past results won't mean $h!t on February 8th.  All on the wrestler.  When the 4th placer from Region A wants it more than the Region Champion from Region D it would have been better time spent helping a young wrestler understand the mental game more than complaining on a forum.

 

Good luck to the 239 young men and one lady who have put in the work for us immature adults to argue over you at 14 years old and below.  

I spoke with some coaches last night and realized that the current seeding system is what I was suggesting in my earlier posts.  My bad...I should have done more research before inserting my foot! 

He didn't beat Blue the ref did. Moore didn't score a point his self against Blue. Not 1 single point did he create by him self. The only way he beat Blue was the ref called 3 crap tight waisting calls against him. So did your son get awarded the match? Sure. But did he beat Blue his self NO he didn't. Now Spencer is a great wrestler but he was handed the match that day. Also at the end Blue shouldve at the very least been awarded an escape and the match shouldve went to overtime. But the ref was terrible. You run into that it's part of the sport.

I really wished names of kids wouldn't have been brought into this. I didn't mention anyone's name because they are kids.

YES

Only after you guys tried to award him the 3seed then another coach had to step up and say he deserves the 1 because he was runner up last year.

You were the 1st to mention a kid by name.

I dislike the Kentucky High School State Draw as much as anyone else but, the random draw takes out any of the human effects of prejudice, bias or influence. 

 

If we are working on best practice why not seed 2’s 3’s or 4’s above 1’s?  If they were to have head to head wins or meet other criteria?  Would that not be the best practice and create the most combative match up? 

 

The middle school state tournament had been a great event for the past 10 years not sure it needed to be tweeted.  The old saying do not fix what is not broken applies here. 

 

Ranger you may very well be the most knowledgeable person in the state when it comes to skill level of each wrestler and this is not an attack on you or anyone else.  However, when you add subjective date into a conversation it becomes no more than a populate contest. 

 

Someone is going to come back and say the criteria’s are objective.  I strongly disagree that Winning % is an objective criteria.  It useful and need for seeding but not objective due to the difference level of competition each wrestle faces. 

Jcb I hear ya. But i don't know if we went to winning % on any brackets. Most of them had head to heads or common opponents or last yr state placer.

OK I don't have a dog in this fight. And most know I am against seeding the state tourney.

However in looking at some of the other states, I believe the only true honest and objective way to seed the state tourney is to only seed the regional champions and only by what they did last year. Returning state champions at the same wt. class are 1st, then returning state champions at another wt. class. ect. ect. I've seen a few states do it this way. (can't remember which ones I researched it last year).

The head to head is flawed because of the fluke win. I've seen kids lose a seed because of common opponent because they had to medical default a match and therfore took the loss. Ive also seen a kid lose a seed because of a defensive pin. (both in the district/regional seed meetings in high school). We can all agree that it was probably not the best seed.

Oh and by the way. I actually wouldn't mind seeing the Fausz v Ervin match in the quarters. Makes the whole tournament exciting, not just he finals.

Blind seed with region #1 against another region's #4, then rotate through the classes so you don't get Union versus River City in every semifinal. Then again a lot of these kids are 11 years old, so what's the real point?