Since the topic is raging hot on another post I figured I would open up this one to talk specifically on this match up. The great thing about these match ups is everyone has a different and unique perspective and opinion. I loved two years ago when they compared the 1996 UK men's basketball team against the 2012 UK men's basketball team. It's extremely difficult to do but I am going to give it a shot.

*I'm looking strictly at what these kids did in high school that current year! We know that Sean as a Senior would beat Hines but as a sophmore not so much. I am also not looking at what they have or have not done in college, strictly that year in High School is all I care about. 

CC 2004                                                                                      CC 2012

103- Kyle Griffin (Freshman) 3rd @ Reg                                     106- Stephen Maggard (Sophomore) 4th @ Reg

112- Dan Hurrlenbrink (Senior) Reg Runner up                           112- Brian Sparh (8th Grader) Reg Runner up

119- Jake Hagedorn (Junior) 3rd @ Reg                                     120- Garth Yenter (Senior) Reg Champ, State Champ

125- Ben Hines (Senior) Reg Champ, State Runner up               126- Sean Fausz (Sophomore) Reg runner up, 3rd @ State

130- Corey Bankamper (Senior) Reg Champ, 3rd @ state          132- Corbin Woods (Junior) Reg runner up

135- Bo Hines (Senior) Reg Champ, State Champ                       138- Paul Hamilton (Junior) Reg Champ, State runner up

140- Brian Wilson (Senior) Reg Runner up,                                  145- ??

145- Aaron Hickey (Senior) 3rd @ Reg, 5th @ state                     

152- Mike Nolan (Junior) Reg Runner up, State Champ                152- Stephan Myers (Junior) Reg Champ, State Champ

160- Adam Moeves (Senior) Reg Champ, State runner up            160- Dustin Turner (Sophomore) 3rd @ Reg

171- Jim Houze (Senior) Reg Champ, 3rd @ state                         170- Eli Matthews (Freshman) Reg Runner up

189- Kevin Orth (Junior) 3rd @ Reg, 6th @ state                           182- Brett Keaton (Sophomore) 4th @ Reg

215- Travis Friedly (Junior) Reg Runner-up                                   195- Kody Key (Junior) 4th @ Reg

HWT- Andy Hagedorn (Senior) Reg Champ, 3rd @ state               220- Austin Myers (Freshman) Reg Champ, State Champ

                                                                                                       HWT- Mason Frank (Senior) Reg Champ, State Champ

I'm going to blend the weight classes to get a more accurate guess.

103/106- Griffin at this time would beat Maggard. It would be close but dec 04.  3-0

112/ 112- Hurrlenbrink was one awful call from placing at state this year. Also at Regionals he was up on Peace until a lat drop from Peace gave him the victory. Hurrlenbrink is way too much for Sparh to handle. Maj dec Hurrlenbrink.  7-0

119/ 120- No question Yenter pins in this match up.  7-6

125/ 126- Hines as a senior vs Sean as a sophmore is a big advantage Hines. Hines ran into Murton that year who was a buzzsaw. Had Murton stayed in Ohio Hines would have been a state champ. I'm giving him the edge over Sean. Dec Hines. 10-6

130/ 132- Bankamper was outstanding an a hammer on top. He would turn Woods anyway he wanted too. Pin Bankamper 16-6

135/ 138- As good as Hamilton was that year, he still gets put through a clinic by Hines. Hines wouldn't pin him, as he wasn't much of one. But he would take Hamilton down at will. I will go conservative and give Hines a major here. 20-6

140/ 145- (Because of the weight classes it gets real tricky here) Wilson pins CC '12 145, whoever that would be. 26-6

145/ 152- Myers would pin Hickey, or Nolan so no biggie here. 26-12

152/ 160- Nolan would work Turner. Not too confident to go with a major here but a dec nonetheless. 29-12

160/ 170- Not even a match here. Moeves would work Matthews. Too much for a freshman Matthews against Moeves. Going with a pin here. 35-12

170/ 182- Houze was up 13-0 before getting reversed to his back and pinned in the quarter finals. With out that move, he is a sure fired state champ. He smashes Keaton here. Pin 04'. 41-12

189/195- Orth was very good here, had a tough regional with Stone and Roberson, both who placed high at state. Orth cruises and crushes Key. Pin 04'. And the blow out continues. 47-12

215/ 220- Austin crushes this match up. Stop the slide. Going 47-18

HWT- Hagedorn was very good and moved well for a HWT. Although Frank is superior here I see this being a close decision in a typical HWT matchup. Dec Frank. 47-21

Overall, this is a blow out match up. Yes CC has some heavy hitters but the overall depth of the 04' team trumps the 12' team.  I competed against the 04 team and coached against many of the 12' team in middle school. BTW i'm the same nut who did the big breakdown on CC and Union County at state last year. 

Have fun debating  

On second thought, Nolan would as a Junior and state champ would pin Turner as a Sophomore. Gives the 04' team 3 more points for a final score of 50-21

Sounds about accurate. Be ready for a certain person to blast you with comments about strength, all Americans, D1 signees, parent coaching, Yada Yada etc. there is no right answer to this discussion, but in my opinion the 2004 team would come out on top.

And in a real tournament real studs determine who wins , bigger guns means bigger placing , fact of life . You do Not shiw much faith in Mathews who most see as a stud , and woulda couldas if so and so had stayed in Ohio only leads one to believe thery were already second best ,compare the accomplishments of everyone on the 04 team with those of the 12 - not close , in a state tournament setting of high caliber like a Penn again not close duals do not determine the best team , state placings tournament placings do ,

I have seen teams beat teams in a dual that would not even be noticed in a state or tough tournament when the team they beat in a dual places very high .

Not that any of you actually came close to calling it as it would actually be or maybe you are dead on either way I was around in 04 no one in Ohio even knew anyone from that team , compared to Those on the 12 team known nation wide

Again not even close .

With that type of thinking then you only need SAM ATM Yenter and Fausz at that big tourney to beat any of the other teams.  As stated, 1-4 people do not make a team. 

Using your thinking.  If for some reason both SAM and ATM would have wrestled for another team in 12, and that team had no other state qualifiers.  The two of them would have scored 63 1/2 points for thier team and tied for 17th with Wayne Co. That would mean that the team they wrestled for would be a better team than all than 16 teams in the state.

Yeah that's how it works except you probably have their points scored wrong .

Sam had four pins and a tech more points by himself than a lot of schools .

Just looking at history and big tournaments four placers usually puts a team up there maybe not champs but up there I would take those four at their best vs the 04s top four at their best and the 12 team would win same goes for all those on the team at their best 12 would win considering some from the 12 team are still jrs it's hardly a stretch .

The 12 team had the most talent easily .

They will never wrestle they wrestle different schedules , 12 being much harder , and so looking at members their accomplishments in HS state placings titles nat placings and so on 12 easily out distances 04 90 or any team in Nky ever .

It all depends on the criteria put them all in a top tourny , Powerade super 32 Fargo , no one from 04 comes close to accomplishing what the kidson the 12 team could do , setting in the stands at 12 state and hearing some kids cime of the mat after losing and hearing teammates and parents say don't worry our big guns are going to get it done it made me angry but it was the truth , Big guns blow people out of the water . They not only score but in the proper atmosphere energise a team with confidence that leads to contagious victories 12 wins ,

Using  your criteria you are correct the 12 team (or big 4) wins hands down. 

But dynasties are not built on a couple of individuals, its built on the team concept.  The one thing that CC has done throughout the years of Bankempers tenure there.  83-present.  I am on your side that Campbell is a dynasty with very little doubt.  And with the framework that has been built there, after Bankemper finally leaves, the team will still continue to be dominate.  That is the final criteria of a dynasty.  Can they survive after a legendary coach leaves.  And I think when Boggs finally takes over, the team will continue without missing a beat.  They have a framework built to succeed.  (and man you know how much that hurts for me to say this, but its the truth.).

Not so sure it's just the big four everyone needs to do their part I agree thus my anger at the comments in the stands in 12.

I'm a firm believer that if stacked up individual state champs from year to year. You would find that new wins the majority of the time, especially the wider the time span.

Now having said that, was the 04 team stronger as whole, maybe..... but would they do of as well if they were thrown into this years State Tournament, probably not......

I will say this, the 04 team was all about winning as a team, they feed off each other like few teams I have ever seen.

Having been around wrestling since 1974, one of the most amazing things I've seen was when the 04 team dismantled a solid #2 team at the state duals.

Starting out with 9 straight pins and only losing two individual matches. I'm not sure we will ever see that again even with the split divisions.

Tarzan-

Two things-- 

1. In a dual, no way does the 2012 team come close to beating to 2004 team. No matter how you want to spin it it wouldn't happen. Remember, I'm comparing what they did at that time and not where they are now! Is Matthews a stud? Hell yea he is! But was he this super stud who could beat Adam Moeves or Jimmy Housz as a freshman?? Get out of here! You know absolutely diddly squat if you believe Matthews could even score on one of these two men. Ask anyone at CC, if as a FRESHMAN, could Matthews beat one of these guys and they will politely say "NO WAY". Same goes for Sean. I talked with my old high school coach who has been coaching in NKY since 1974 and he told me Sean is one of the best kids he has ever seen! But could a sophomore Sean Fausz who lost 4 times to TJ Ruschell beat Ben Hines who was a Senior that year? Not a chance! 

Did the 2012 team have more Nationally recognized wrestlers? Yes. But does that make it a better team? Not even close. The 2009-10 UK basketball team had 5 players drafted in the first round, 2x more than any other team, yet were they the best team? No. It's not about 3 or 4 guys, its about 14 and 2004 CC had NO holes where the 2012 had several.

And again this is not a dig at anyone! I enjoyed competing against the 2004 team and I especially enjoyed watching the 2012 team. But realistically they are not even close when it comes to dual or state tournament format. Just saying

I enjoy hearing others perspectives this can be a fun topic to debate.

And i repeat a dual is not how you always judge the best Team , every top ranked team get there by winning big tournaments duals as well

But more so on .

And if someone was to judge the best team ever assembled for any school they would

Look at who was on it and not only what they did as a fresh but in their HS careers altogether no one on the 04 did anything that would stack up to the kids from the 12 team did are doing or will do , and they wouldn't beat the 12 team in a current top tournament .that said maybe they were solid top to bottom very admirable maybe they would win but I doubt their horses ran as far Or as fast as the 12 teams did or do . Give everyone their due but today's kids like Yenter ATM Sam Fausz - Boston - and some of the others have wrestled all across the country and in modern camps with top national level

Coaches the 04 team probably didn't even know half the moves these guys do let alone beat them , no debating the level has improved not declined , sorry to hurt the old timers feelings facts are facts

I couldn't agree more about the talent and overall quality of wrestlers that the 12' team produced or will produced. No denying that whatsoever.

And if someone was to judge the best team ever assembled for any school they would

Look at who was on it and not only what they did as a fresh but in their HS careers altogether

Never heard of someone judging a certain year team on what the team members did in their career? Most judge them on their ability the year in question, not what they achieved in later years or previous years. You yourself critisized someone bringing up Ruschell saying they were going by what he did in college, but according to this statement then you would use his college achievments in determining a superior team.   

If Cambell wins it this year then you can say the ATM of 14 beats the ATM of 12 same goes for Fausz and Mathews.  You need to look at the team as a whole and thier abilities in the year in question.

Well this is the HighSchool forum not the college one and how Ruschell entered the picture is beyond me it's the 04 ,12 CC teams wich one was Ruschell on because I'm really lost now ,

I can say the ATM of 12 beats everyone because he did , he's a bad dude just repped 275 for ten on the bench after practice not even being 100 % no one can touch him .

ATM would pin every single kid on the 04 team in succession without breaking a sweat .

And while Ruschell places at nationals in comparrison ATM has win it twice convincingly , you don't even comprehend the level hes on .

Add him with the rest of the 12 team it's insane , and I would think someone could judge a team on a lot of things I would think being on team with a bunch of national champs placers college wrestlers would be more impressie than being on team of really good guys lol. Now I judge by talent .

Must be nice to be able to argue over 2 different dominant teams from the same school. CC has an awesome program and I hope our slightly new program can build to be that consistent year in and year out.

Always root for your team no matter what , just makes it easy when they back their play with wins and accomplishments .

State duals are this week and some of those studs from the greatest CC team ever will be wrestling , CC hvys have been hitting it hard ,

Sinclair is a Beast and the 195 the Russian kid Gratsastonivich is a powerhouse just needs to be on the Matt more . He will be a state placer before he leaves CC .

ATM just said I don't know why they think those teams would beat us they would have no chance , Corbin woods was a beast look at all the state champs from that team even Hamilton the laziest wrestler in CC history won from that team .

I dont know why I have to keep saying this, but Corbin Woods as a Junior, which he was in 2012, would get rolled up and smoked by Bankamper. No question about it. Cory was a machine his senior year. Again, Paul Hamilton as a Junior against a Senior in Bo Hines would get taken down all over the mat any way Hines wanted too. These can't be serious questions!

Night hawk your accessment is spot on. I really enjoyed and agree with your breakdown. Tarzan, you are also correct with the individual accessment of the 3 from the 2012 team yenter,sam and atm (fausz had not yet blossomed into what he has become today) now take the remaining 11 into any tournament,duel, or any othe format you like and 04 rules. and your comment about them being unheard of in ohio? they won every tournament and duel they entered in 04 including the 2 that I know of in ohio. the hammer and one off Kenwood rd.

if memory serves me. Not to mention accumulating the second most points ever in the history of the ky state tournament. yes they were all juniors and seniors except 103lb. and all the stars were in alignment.

they put on a show that was memorable, does not happen often, and should not be ridulculed or scoffed at.

by the way, we are also proud of the 2014 team and have great hopes for the future.

The Hammer is a decent tournament but probably not as tough as Fairfield and no where near as tough as th GMVA , just kidding about woods and Paul both good kids and wrestlers , I keep hearing someone mention a coaches kid I have to think there is some brown nosing going on just being Honest , back to the question of, Who considers everyone on a teams accomplishments before or after they actually make those accomplishments in HS , everyone , if you played on a team of

Football players with four who would turn pro all from different grades fresh thru sr you would say hey I played with each of them and they were all on the same team particularly if they won a title one yr , that's a no brainer , when everyone looks back at the 12 team they will say look at all the titles they won the things they each did in HS the colleges they wrestled for and so on of course it matters , Now educate me about the 04 team - they won state I know convincingly , I doubt they had the comp the 12 team had ? They did not wrestle their schedule or anything remotely close to it , what did any of them do out side of Ky that yr or ever in HS All Americans ?? NHSCA Fargo ??anything I already know NONE of them won state more than twice , so it's hardly a stretch to say the 12 team and it's members we're better !!

PH a runner up and winner over Carr the next yr , SAM a champ a runner up a jr and CC first ever SR AA

Yenter a 2xer Fausz a champ an AA , ATM , Mathews still up and coming Turner the same and The rest , I'm hearing how the 04 team would do this and did that but none of them were good enough to win a title more than twice and most not that , and none actually proved they deserved to be mentioned on the same level as the 12 team , like I said in a big tournament the 12 team would have been on the Matt wrestling when the 04 team was sitting in the stands watching . Sounds like they were a solid well rounded team , they won but the 12 team evidently was better they won state duals the next yr and were runners up and the remnants of that team are still in the hunt and may well end this debate in a few days as they attempt to win state duals a second straight yr , ,SAM and ATM were not allowed to wrestle duals in 12 , or it would

Be a possible threepeat coming up .

If i'm not mistaken Campbell has been in the Fairfield tourney since 1990.  If the 2012 team was undefeated then they must have won that tourney also. 

Cambell has only been in the GMV since 2010 (I think). 

Campbell also was ranked nationally in either 90 or 91 (25th) not sure if the 04 or 12 team was.

I believe only Jake Hagadorn wrestled in college for the 04 team.

Bo HInes was a two time finalist 2nd Jr. year and Nolan a two time finalist 2nd his Sr year to Cooper who he beat in the state finals his jr. year.

Looking at bet team ever (in KY) you must look at Woodford Co. also.

93 team had 7 in the finals that year with 3 champions.  (those wrestlers would accumulate 8 champions and 14 finalists career)

96 Woodford team had 11 state career champions. (C. Valentine 1, C. Dunn 3, Ian Horn 3, and Joe Carr 4, (2 MOW's))

97 Woodford Team had 13 career state champions. (J. Gentry 1, J. Whitaker 2, C. Dunn 3, I. Horn 3 and J. Carr 4, (2 MOW's))

I can only tell you what they did in ky high school thats all I really study or care about (sorry)

I will look up the 4 CC state champion teams and give you their state breakdowns.

Oh and did I Mention who officially has the longest Win streak in Campbell County History !!!!!

Clue - its still on going starting in 12 !!!!

OK I'm confussed are we talking individuals or team? 

The information on the longest win streak in CC history I don't have.  Nor do I have a way of confirming it.  However since CC only has a few two time state champions I would guess it will be the one who recieves his 3rd state championsip. 

That does lead me to the question of how many wins might he have if and when he wins his 4th.  Will it be enought to top the national record?

No I doubt it , Khsaa made him set out till regionals his fresh yr ,and CC is losing matches because of weather and I think they had points or weigh inns left they didn't even use this yr and for some reason most of the varsity had to set out in their own only home dual meet so they lose matches there all very €|€{£}£ annoying when you have kids who are chasing records and live for it . He does have a very long win streak without a loss since sixth grade in folkstyle comp .

A state and national title or gold medal placing at nationals every yr since then . Sure he may lose in HS but I don't know of any wrestler in Ohio or ky in recent yrs who can match that streak , and no Otto not BO he lost in HS his fresh yr after setting out a certain tourny for Graham .

How many wrestlers showed up at 220 at these "national tournaments"?

Now Wildcat, is that really necesary?

Just curious how many high school wins does ATM have now?

Thats how Bankemper use to do things over there.  He cared very little about records, wins, and other accolades for himself or his wrestlers.  It use to be about making every wrestler on his team the best they could be.  Whether that means two varsity victories in the season, or a state championship, maybe he has returned to this philosophy.  

Actually it is. Hes constantly spouting off stat after stat. Lets just be clear how many wrestlers actually attended these "national tournaments". Im sure the 220 classes were stacked.

Im not being disrespectful but at least the top two wrestlers in ky dont wrestler for CC. They may not have the "win streak", but they are in competiitve weight classes and have wrestled in tougher tournaments. With that said, kids in ohio see better comp every weekend in compete in many or the toughest tournys (ironman, MIT , Brecksville, topgun, etc) in one of the top three wrestling states in the country...but yeah I agree. ATM is the greatest 220 to come out of KY all time.

Well you and everyone else knows the response that will be comming back. 

1.Another resume of ATM's past, all the way back to elementary. 

2.His unmatched dedication in the weight room to becoming the best. 

3.His future records he will reach. 

4.A dig on you and your team. 

5.Finally ending up with a threat or challenge to find someone better than his boys. 

all between 100 and 200 words long

^^ agreed but its a worthy discussion. His GOAT rants need puy into better context. Im not saying ATM isnt the best 220 in ky. Just not the best wrestler or the most nationally qualified. A bunch of ky kids are doing big things (ironman, flo nationals, ncaaD1) it doesnt have to be ATM all the time.

Ahh wildcat another person who has absolutely nothing to do but be envious lol and what is your concern with this 04vs 12 CC thread ,

How many 220 were at these nat tournaments ??

Guess it wouldn't matter if there were only 5 or 6 as for who he has beaten and their quality you are way of 220 is one of the toughest classes in the Country including the pfp best wrestler in the. Nation , once again you spread falsehoods as lies . As for Ohio no team in KY wrestles in Ohio as Much as CC and no kid in KY has beaten more of those Ohio state placers and ranked kids in all divisions than Austin ,as for who he has beaten Nationally ranked kids every yr he has wrestled at every national tournament as a matter of fact in his weight class on intermat he has actually beaten the next three wrestlers below his ranking he's probably the only wrestler at 220 who can say he has actually beaten the three next guys below him ,

If you knew anything about wrestling and these national tournaments you would already know Austin and Brock are the two undefeateds at that tournament over the last two yrs and Austin has wins over ind champs runners up and I'll runner ups as well as many others his wins there were against higher quality wrestlers than most if not everyone else from ky .

You sound like the haters who tried to downplay him his fresh yr saying his class was weak lol beating a Sr returning champ and being the only non Sr on the podium one fresh 7 srs lol .

As for your statement the Top Two Wrestlers in KY , that your opinion they may be the top two Srs not going to debate comments on two kids i respect and like and are great wrestlers and not going to let some hater who's about to see their fav team go down and knows there about to take a dose of their own medicine use someone else in an attempt to knock a good kid , One who happens to have the best record of any wrestler in KY history from youth through HS and who may well go undefeated throughout his whole HS career , when you have a fresh win a state title against returning champ sr and pin the second ranked kids in the state in under 30 seconds of course his class will thin out and when that second ranked kid in kY is making finals in top tournys in Ohio against state ranked kids and placers from multiple states then that class is hardly weak !!!! Austin has wins over top ranked kids in ky in multiple weights all with first period pins , and has majored an Ohio D 1 recruit who was a top ranked wrestler in Ohio previously this yr !!

As for your tournament rants and what everyone is doing few football players do iron man and coaches choose their schedule not wrestlers this is an old debate . Flo nationals is only a few yrs old and the same day as NHSCA the tournament Austin has won two yrs straight and Brock won last yr , the one a couple weeks before National duals where they both went undefeated again

The NCAA D1 comment is funny you love dwelling on it , you should dwell on the records in whatever div and the wins against d1 kids rather than the div lol there are D2 D3 And NAIA kids with bigger wins against D1 wrestlers than a lot of kids wrestling for D1 schools ""Knowwhatimean"

And there is a jr in ky who can beat a lot of d1 wrestlers right this instant ,

So the kids in Ohio who all see better comp have all lost To Austin , all the kids in his state and from your team have lost to Austin , and everyone else at 220 from every other state including state placers from every decent wrestling state in the country .

Now considering everything he has done in high school he did in Youth and Jr High.

Hes pretty darn good hahahah

The two I'm sure your saying are the top two wrestlers in ky are srs and as for tougher tournaments maybe so maybe no they do not compete in multiple sports and their Records are not unblemished in weight classes that are competitive but dominated by underclassmen while Austin dominated and remained undefeated in a class almost always dominated by upperclassmen the whole time without staying exclusive to one sport .

Think I covered the length of the post ,

Think I explained wildcats comment on a thread that has nothing to do with him or his team because he knows what's coming their way this weekend

Austin is a machine in the weight room most powerful HS athlete in Ky and that mean p4p including your two picks above him

The boys rock including the on in college who whipped that kid on wildcats username pick like a dog at the rumble and only lost to by a point at state last yr .

Pick a leauge a div or a state and Austin has a college Letter from it if they have the sport .to answer your question about college and D1 .

As for wins I think he's around 130 and 0 or so and if not for the bs his fresh yr it would be around 40 more and had he got to wrestle at the home dual as the other state champ from CC did he would have another win , but it will not matter .

No one from Ky will beat him and as for his brother he proved he was better than everyone in ky crossing weight divisions beating state champs he did lose one by a point to a kid he beat far worse the same yr giving him a 3-1 record against KY state champs last yr lol .

Looking forward to three straight looking forward to this weekend , really looking forward to next yr i will hate to see the level drop because there are no replacements for a Brock or Boston just like there are no replacements for a Stephen or Kevin , But there is also only one ATM and he is also the only one with a chance to be Perfect .

Grappler you are no CC fan rather a saboteur out to stop an unstoppable force ATM ,you failed as soon as you chose to make negative comments about him .

Wildcat sorry about your luck you should stick to threads about your own school they are not as widespread as last yr but still you shouldn't jump ship and try and poke holes just because your own ship has sunk lol

State duals this weekend , looking forward to a good tournament and a good shot at seeing a repeat from last yr .

Looking forward to the shock and AWE as the good fans in Ky get to see the most powerful most winningest only undefeated HS state Champ in the state do his thing .

Looking more forward to state where ATM should be 100 % and focused on himself And what he does rather than the distraction around him .

Three in a row grappler the undisputed King of the county hahahahahahahh

GOO- The 04' Campbell County team was ranked nationally that year. If I am not mistaken they were some where in the 25-30 range. 

Wow, you still haven't mentioned how many wrestlers showed up? Do we really have to look it up ourselves. You seem to remember everything else perfectly fine. And about the letters from D1 schools. Are they the same letters EVERYONE gets, the feelers..or actually letters from coaches.

Can you tell me how many wrestlers showed up at any wrestlers tournaments over the last two years lol ,doubt anyone can tell you how many wrestlers showed up at any tournament last yr or two yrs ago lol , and as for we ,do you have a mouse in your pocket because your the only one asking stupid questions , like I said if you want to know who someone has beaten look it up , everyone who was at nat duals or NHSCA nationals would have no problem explaining to you that Austin won and beat some high quality kids , I'm sure the lighter classes are fuller particularly for fresh but your attempt to downplay him will only backfire , four pins and a tech at fresh nationals , a win over an Indiana state champ as a fresh at nat duals , a win against a beast of east top placer and intermat ranked kid as well as others at soph nat and wins against multiple state runners up a nationally ranked kid and a champ at national duals as a soph . Unbeaten against in and out of state comp and ranked opponents ,

Now what was your reason for posting on this CC thread lol .

As for his college letters get serious "feelers " why don't you call Austin and ask him yourself , as for the totally ignorant things you imply about him and college there's about twenty or thirty ranked High school wrestlers in Ky who are on his Facebook and can see who his friends are and these "friends " request him these guys don't mess around with Feelers they Make it personal with a good wrestler And kid they hope to coach one day lol , Why don't you ask his coach or AD he doesn't even reply anymore he just says send them all my transcripts Hahahahahahhahahahahahahatime

Your obsession is showing , mine is training and talking up a kid yours is straight up envy hahahahah your sick

Duals this weekend

Obsession? Youre the one who will never shut up about him and can never back up your claims. Good luck to Austin. No one is saying he is not the best 220 in KY. And to stay in topic...CC04.

Back up my claims hahahahah Well when someone is undefeated and beats everyone everywhere he wrestles in and out of season I think claims are a moot point I'm sure you and your cronies and cc informants are all excited hes hurt but Dont worry he will devestate everyone this week and at regionals and state he will be a three timer remain undefeated then make another run at nationals where win or lose he gets another AA placing then he will embark on becoming the states first ever career undefeated Champ , now those are claims most of wich are history a couple of wich he will do and perhaps exceed and calling him the best 220 in Ky is correct hea the best 220 in Ky who has beaten everyone he has wrestled in a folkstyle match since the sixth grade the baddest greatest most powerful scary Matt monster in ky History , and some hate him for it but most love him hes so fun to watch I can see it now as can everyone else here comes Austin walking to the Matt all his friends and coaches from across the state set around and say How long can this kid last , one guy says second period some coach from Walton says no way asks me how long did his last match last , I say 39 seconds the Walton coach turns to everyone and says I got ten says its under 39 , it's the finals mind you " ATM pins the kid in 37 sec , Walton coach turns and says pay up suckers , ATM is Money hahahahahahahh ,

True story hahahahahahhaha

Who said anything about him being hurt? Paranoid much? He's the best 220 in ky. No one is denying that. When he steps out in college and more on the national seen we will see. Until then everything is pure speculation. Good luck to austin.

Can we close this thread. Looks like we can no longer discuss the match ups between the two teams. I would like to see others opinion on the breakdown.

Speculating what ,no one speculates they just pin and win and win and keep winning no speculation look it up ,

04 , how many champs did they have ?

Tarzan, you asked for some education on the 04 TEAM I have learned from this post somethings I did't know before. They won both the fairfield inv.and hammer. stompped the #2 team in state duels as tapout explained 1st 9 matches pinned lost only 2matches in final duel. had more than

half the team (9) on the podium in state tourney. 4 in the finals. 3 third place finishers. no, they did not have any super duper studs like brock,atm

or boston. but from top to bottom there were no weak links, each weight division would be  contested. the time difference is less than a decade

it's not like comparing a 70's or 80's team to today so the comp level was not a tremendous difference. Trust me, we parents of that team were every bit as proud of "our boys" as you are of yours.In Kentucky, we are a community I root for ALL of them when they are out of the state.

and naturally I root for CC but I also root for all region 6 because I know them better. But when someone else Wins I have to acknowledge their

superior abilitys and congradulate them as well. I wish you could recognize others acheivements as easly as your sons. I congradulate the 2012 team, and look forward to more.

Well it looks like they only had two , the 12 team had four so it's hardly a stretch to say that the 12 team would fare better in a tournament and looking at four there were champs from like ten schools showing it wasn't a yr of powerhouse teams in kY and that a decent team could dominate , like no Union vs CC vs Sk powerhouses like in twelve.

Seems that with little research many questions are answered ,

So what was it just an extra stupendous wrestling yr in Ky or what it appears to be , a yr when one solid team could dominate because there were in fact no powerhouse teams like today .

12 hands down .

I understand ,but I disagree the comp level Definatly in Ky is much higher now than in 04 , I also looked up records in twelve Union CC and Trinity had studs , they stood out easily , the twelve team seemed even in a down yr with no they standout teams it shows in The results , being honest great champs make everyone around them better the twelve teams had that , the hammer and Fairfield great CC 12 could have and probably did win there and competed at other tougher tournaments not really a factor what's surprising is the results on the khsaa site No othe powerhouses that yr , easy pickings for a good team leading to the big score

In a dual match up, which matches do you have going the other way? I only counted four victories I believe for the 12 team (Yenter, Stephan, Austin, and Frank).

If you could explain why too. You have a ton of insight I know, but want to here your reasoning. Please, remember its what they were that year not the next year or the summer after. Thank you

with the same number of wrestlers in the finals. how do you propose to make up for  the points scored by the by the 3 third place finishers and 5

count them 5 as in one two three four five other wrestlers standing on the podium? That is why the point totals for the 04 team far exceeded

the 2012 team Tarzan people have tried to explain a team is not made up of 1 , 2 or 3, individuals.

Like I said the 04 yr had no standout teams easy pickings for a solid but not super team LOOK at the Results , in real tough Tournaments the team with the four state champs not 1 , 2, or 3 , but four would beat the one with only two in a down yr ,

To say Kentucky is not tougher in twelve than in 04 is just dreaming or straight up ignoring facts , CC had a good team in 04 but the results at state say the state as a whole had no standout Teams ,

No Union 12 , No CC 12 , , just a solid CC 04 , if that team wrestled seperatly in 12 THEY WOULD NOT WIN , Their champs would not be champs they would lose to Cooper and SAM and their placers would fall way behind in classes dominated by studs from other classes ,

Now think about it before replying , Tarzan Knows Wrestling ,

Ugh me Tarzan me know nothing. Facts just the facts. 04 out scored 12 peorid...spectulation and trying to justify why 12 didn't do as well with excuses about competition, strength of teams ,etc,etc. or any other usless lame esxuses you can dream up will not change history or the point totals.

nothing you say can change what is. you will have to suffer with the "trying to explain why the 04 numbers didn't count" As to the people who were there, remember, and knows, I understand the frustration of trying to explain to the ones who were not, missed out and cannot understand.

And you can explain why the 04 team only had two champs , sorry I actually looked into the history of the tournament and added facts to the conversation , and I do apologise for thinking wrestling in the near present in ky has advanced over that of ten yrs ago Me Tarzan me am right you am

Wrong , Great white ape headed to state duals watch little ape pin a barrel of Monkeys .

excuses, excuses... 04   234points #2 all time   12 196points  #11 all time

Four champs vs two against weaker comp , excuses work both ways , either way lol your only as good as your last win and that was in 12 against the best and most modern teams a CC team has won state against ,not a bunch of sub par teams in a down yr with champs scattered all about

And I agree excuses excuses when your the champ your the champ .

And did I explain the 04 team could not have won state in 12 !!

excuses, excuses... 04   234points #2 all time   12 196points  #11 all time

facts just the darn facts
 

The facts - four champs and kids with nat cred vs two champs , the fab Four vs two who would have lost in 12 , it's like winning regionals vs state , the 12 team had to actually beat much better comp . More kids in the sport more weights more teams simply did more and some from it still are .

The four team would have fell against the 12 Union team they wouldn't have even been top two in 12 maybe even lower !!!

 04, 9 on the podium 12, 6 on the podium just one more fact you have to try and explain away with myths and excuses

No need to explain away anything as I said in a tougher tournament the top placers would advance the rest would be in the stands Four champs out score two More placers out score fewer ones , like I said The 4 not have won against the tougher comp in twelve . The champs of 4 would be placers in 12 and the placers would either be lower placers or spectators in the stands duiring finals !!!! I doubt the champ of 04 at 152 would have made finals in 12 if he had he would have been pinned or teched wich is what happened to the runner up who was a state champ the next yr .

Cooper would have pinned the champ from 04 at 145 as well. Pretty much a given .

Who cares about 9 on the podium and who cares about most points scored it is not the sole criteria for the best team , who did they beat that was any good --------- not Union or Trinity like the 12 team did ??????

tougher comp? prove it. how do you prove it? where are the cold hard numbers? numbers are facts. opinion is questionable.

Cold hard facts Wth are you talking about , CC 12 beat Union and Trinity both with nationally ranked kids and multiple champs lol there's your numbers. And facts , so far today the myth of 04 has been totally outdistanced by the modern day warriors of 12 who beat real teams not a bunch of teams on the rise but teams that were already there with studs on them .

I would think the 90 team if they were ranked 25 in the nation although that's the last spot probably ranked would be a much more suitable candidate for best CC team . I will still go with 12 for sheer impact of studs and the attention it's Champs and team brought to the sport , no denying it they raises the level brought national attention to the school and state lol your 04 team can't touch them neither can the 90 team lol Real champs national level modern day butt kickers who turn heads across the nation not a bunch of decent wrestlers who won duiring a period of stagnancy in the state .

the more it goes on The more 12 gets ahead , c

Anyone care to chime in with the accomplishments of the 04 Woodford team?

I'm guessing they were not stagnate team since there was serious talk about them challenging for the team title, up until the State Duals anyway.

I would throw the 2006 WC team in the mix. 5 finalist, 5 champs. Never been done before, never been done since.

Five champs is actually better than Four much better than two . Even had a team with 5 champs lost to a team with 9 placers they could still be ranked higher on a national level than a state level ,this they are a better Team ,

Anyone ever heard of a little school in Ohio - Monroeville - well their four studs and their team could lose in a little tournament and place at an Iron Man level ,

point proven

Lose a quad against unranked state teams and win national tournaments

Me Tarzan hahahahahahahhaah

I would say many teams have lost state titles to teams they would beat at bigger tournaments , probably some in very recent history

And with a mighty head and arm heard around the Tri state the ohio state 220 champ gets stuck by a lower ranked Ohio 220 one of ATMs former youth wrestling teammates Seth Brennock and as I said , ATM rises another notch on the national level , quite a few words I would lie to throw out to all th haters &$:$:$: it hahhhahah

What a fun day this has been , didn't some airhead on yappi just say what century hahahahhahahaha

Week later and Cthelights hahahaha hahahahahahahha

I would say many teams have lost state titles to teams they would beat at bigger tournaments , probably some in very recent history

Prove it with something other than your opinion. Oh wait you can't.

Austin beats the Ohio 3 handily by major while the four sets in the stands ,

Then a lower ranked Ohio kid who lost to the four pins their one who all these buckeyes say would beat ATM and who Bucksman has ranked ahead of ATM lol here it comes excuses , what was that a few posts ago quality wins hahahahahahahh,

In the big boy world it's different giant fall now and again , well most of em hahaha

A national ranking change coming up about one pin ago ahahahhahaha

What are you talking about? Can somebody please ban his IP like countless forums have had to?

You mean like clowns like you try to make happen lol , your team gets hammered come sat

ATM moves up in the national intermat rankings as of about an hour and a half ago hahahahah he beats top ranked Ohio kids and OHIOs top ranked 220 falls to lesser ranked kids from Ohio hahahah you know squat about wrestling and your tactics to push buttons only allow me to have fun love that pic I will take some sat if anyone steps on the mat with ATM he hates your team they are all out to destroy them ,

What does any of that have to do with this. You constantly use this forum as a personal hype board. Shouldnt you be looking for a job or something.

So bad he beat up a Rock , injured a stone , Murdered a Brick , wrestled an alligator beat up a whale handcuffed lighting and threw thunder in jail . ATM wildcat your lucky to even get to be in the same arena as him ,

There's some Ky History for you straight from the man my Friend Ali . Gonna whoop everyone bigger faster stronger meaner stronger harder nastier midevil he will smack the taste out your mouth crush the back of your skull if you test him after he sends you crashing to the mat , you want to get serious about who's the best wrestler in Ky it's the one no one in ky can beat and hasn't been able to since he entered 9th grade no one no weight , The Man ATM Money

The best 220...maybe the 4th or 5th best. What does an ohio kid losing have to do with austin. Did he ever beat the kid who lost or the kid who beat him? And who is the ranked ohio kid that austin beat that you mention in every thread?

My job your true nature comes out personal attacks you aimed at Mpire to get a response lol . My Job is making bad M€|€{^{ scooters and they are about to roll all over everyone . My little crew hitting at this very moment while your thinking up ways to push buttons on the happiest wrestling dude in the state hahahahh Me Tarzan Hahahah

I'm happy the boys team is rich in history great there could be a debate sad some hater clown from anothe team nuts in and draws out the fake home team supporters lol state duals bring the diapers and the napkins mommas will be crying and kida will be wettin their britches there's a a legend headed there way and hea full of p/££ and vinegar it's going to be bad weekend for some kids .

Alright.....but what was the ranked ohio kids name?

 

Grappler you are no CC fan rather a saboteur out to stop an unstoppable force ATM ,you failed as soon as you chose to make negative comments about him .

.

Three in a row grappler the undisputed King of the county hahahahahahahh

OK

1.  I never claimed to be a CC fan nor did I claim not to be. I consider myself more of a historian of ky wrestling.

2.  I don't see where I made negative comments about ATM.  If you point them our I will gladly appologize it was not my intent.

Of course he has beaten the kid that beat him

Back in the day almost every gd day they were teammates and he beat kida who beat kida that beat him a couple weeks ago lol your lost in this whole conversation your making stabs in the dark and you seem to but realise how rankings matches and comparisons work lol B and C beat D D beats a number one ATM beats B who has beaten C and D and he moves up lol hahahahahaha

None of your concern really you have never had to worry about someone ranked that high nationally on your team , go backward run stall whatever everyone is getting pinned this weekend and The only undefeated 220 lb state champ in the Tri state is headed to Montgomery co on a mission to demolish everyone and keep haters like you all stirred up hahahhah

Pin first period lol ATM hasn't been pinned since about the third grade never been on his back in HS hahahahahahahha Bucksman us eating crow at this moment where's Otto and his big Ohio bias bs right now

Did you mention the name of the ranked ohio kid yet?

Don't you know genius hahahahahaha

ATM is so mean he makes medicine sick hahahahah ATM majored Nye a couple weeks ago lol a good match but all ATM anyone can lose but he wrestles all comers doesn't set out and has not lost

You should be more concerned with what's about to happen come sat ATM just ate a hand grenade and p1$$ some napalm hahahaha powerful lol he crushes apple trees not apples ,

OK here is some fun facts.  04 had 2 champs.  Bo Hines 135 Places second in 12 behind Fahey defeats Hamilton.

Mike Nolan 152, Places 2nd at best no worse than third in 12 behing SAM.

12 had 4 champs 120 Yenter.  Probably beats Kris Perry in 04 in a close match.

SAM 152, wins hands down in 04 agains Nolan.

220 ATM would be the match everyone would want to see.  Tyler Shearer his 10th grade year (1st of 3 titles) Vs ATM 9th grad year (1st of 4 titles).  This is the match people in KY want to see.  Be a good match with ATM on top. 

HWT.  Frank,  Places at best 2nd behind Berrow probably 3rd behind Brewer (who beat Berrow in 03)

Im sorry. In your humber opinion. Who is the number 1 highschool opponent atm has defeated? We know you love spouting off awards and such, please tell us the names of the "national tournaments" atm has won, in highschool. Feel free to add actual names of events so that we can all look in amazement at the achievements of the best highschool wrestler ever from ky, the only 2 time undefeated champ.

Here is my take on all this. 

1.  At the iron man 12 wins

2.  In a dual 04 wins

Who is the better team?  Depends on your definition of TEAM.

Listen, I root for your boys and I hope they do well. They, atm included, are not the best ever, and thats fine. They are very good and should have great futures. If it wasnt for you I'm sure no one would have any issues at all with them. You don't see brock or bostons dads on here constantly demanding you talk about their boys. They do the talking with big tourny wins and college scholarships. You should give your kids the same chance.

Well he beat a handful of fresh studs at fresh nat , then beat Robinson a couple weeks later at nat duals Beat fl and Nj placer beast of east placer and nationally ranked Chakonis at soph nat , then beat an ill runner up and an ind runner up and Fargo placer in Fletcher Miller and many others at those nat tournaments his soph yr , now as I said He has wins over the next three kids ranked under him can't you read .had he never wrestled at any nationals he would still be an undefeated beast who has beaten ky state champs and Ohio top ranked kids every month he has wrestled lol , you look it up hahahah

Or better yet just watch come sat as he toys with everyone ,

And ATM would have pinned the 04 champ before The third .

Seriously, there is really no need to question ATM's accomplishments. These attacks are tacky and unwarranted. Tarzan raised studs, period. If you want to know what tournaments he won......Google it! The kid is a muti X National Champ and AA. The kid is the $h!t. Enough said.

Yeah google it Tarzan and Boy all over internet , kings of the Jungle baby there's gold In them thar hills of Ky and it's around ATMs neck now Otto tell your boy Josh Lowe to do his work and quit homering his states champs it makes him looking a Buffoon every time Tarzans boy goes ape $hip all over his buckeyes ha hahahah ungawahhh

ATM is mad there is no talk of state duals Iwin let's post over there so everyone will drop this stupid thread ,

Sounds good to me!

Thanks again nighthawk for starting this thread it sure did turn out to be a hot one. The opinions from the people who witnessed both teams seem to number 5 votes for the 04 team. the one vote for the 12 team is the opinion of someone who never saw both teams wrestle. so his vote does not count. thus the opinion count is 5-0 for 04

Since this went all over the place, I sitill think the best team was the 2003 South Oldham team. Just an opinion.

I agree with that opinion. And CC was second that year.

South Oldham 03 and CC 04 are neck and neck for the best team ever status.

Back to the 04 vs 12 debate, I think Goo got it right!

It comes down to one's opinion of what makes a great team.

Coach B always strives to make every kid the best they can be and also peak at the end of the season.

Would you rather have 8 or 9 state placers and a team championship or 3 or 4 state champs that carry the team to the championship.....

It's all just a matter of opinion which is better, in the end it's still a championship.

The 12 team had more than just 3-4 champs they had a few placers as well , if your setting in the corner at a tournament like Powerade or NHSCA nationals you want the studs or you won't be setting in a corner at all come day Two , you will be in the stands or on the bus headed home

Considering the 5 votes for 4 were bias and the one vote for 12 actually looked into the history and has coached kids who were ranked higher than anyone on the 4 team And been to actuall tournaments that include top national teams. Lol I think it does count but either way four kids to two can say they are champs and

That was probably the most champs CC ever had on a team and in the new era The team with the most champs will probably win because the level of wrestling in Ky has improved , Look at the best states and see wich ones win titles the ones with the most champs not placers !!!

Prove it with something other than your opinion. Oh wait you can't.

And the rumble last yr

Guess I can smarty pants that's two out of three oh wait I just did --- Now what !!!!!

Oh ye of little knowledge and even less understanding, surely you are being facetious!

Well state duals last yr for one lol

And the rumble last yr

Guess I can smarty pants that's two out of three oh wait I just did --- Now what !!!!!

oh yeah, last i checked those were not the STATE CHAMPIONSHIPS.  LOL

This is awesome!!!! It's like watching a bunch of old men yelling and screaming at each other over the big red mechine or murders row.

yea, but having a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed is rather tiresome and unsportsman like

Tell me about it if they actually knew anything about wrestling or what it takes to win they might have something worthwhile to talk about or something or someone in their gene pool that has actually done something in wrestling or in any sport , so I guess the doers have to argue with the arm chair wannabees .

And day by day ATM goes up in the Rankings , you have to watch those head and arms they are a garbage move but always there surprised a decent kid would get caught by one .

Otto ---- Otto --- knowhatimean ,

Oh sorry didn't mean to wander and leave those without higher insight into the sport lost ,

Not really yelling over the old days 12 and it's participants are still relevant as we speak some of its champs and placers are still winning one hasn't even lost in HS - - ever.

If they are questioning Austin that's crazy.. Iv said this before . He is a top notch wrestler and more importantly a top notch young man. He don't even know my son but I seen him at a youth tournament pull my son to the side and show him how to do a move better and explain to him why

He loves coaching kids that know wrestling already to a certain extent like those that are into it and learning or want to learn he gets hit up a lot to train first yr kids and he gets mad of course it's easier to train those with some knowledge , he is a great kid when his little brother wrestles he usually goes and helps focusing on everyone he can doing so in between his own practice and his workout time. Funny most of these kids are first yr kids lol .

Hes working out a deal with the school , if he wins four all wrestlers get out of school one day ,

Otto ---- Otto --- knowhatimean ,

 

Not the first time you mentioned me on this thread. Not sure why. Must be some kind of primal man crush. To the original post. I am not able to speak on it as I am not familiar with the '04 team. These types of discussions can be fun when kept civil. I think I saw where the '04 team was nationally ranked, no? I think that speaks volumes. My best guess aligns with GOO. Head to head '04 probably wins. Big time individual tournament (Powerade, Ironman.....) '12 probably wins. Hard to say either way. 

Otto bucksmans boy your Ohio d1 220 #1 got pinned in the first period by a sixth or seventh ranked D1 220 2 nights ago, Austin majored the D1 Ohio #3 12-2 , a few weeks back , yet Bucksman ranks the Ohio champ over an undefeated 2x state and national champ from KY with more wins more quality wins altogether and even bigger quality wins in Ohio ,Pretty bias stuff and pretty funny considering all the trash they throw Austin's way , when they show up he beats them and when the Ohio boys dodge him no one says a word yet they talk mass smack about him

Running to KY , it's a shame everyone goes by rankings that are so home state bias .

Primal man crush lol the only people getting crushed is people's rankings lol a ky boy just moved up past all your Ohio favorites and shut up all his detractors . It was only a matter of time

Rough times over on Montgomery rd I hear

Otto bucksmans boy your Ohio d1 220 #1 got pinned in the first period by a sixth or seventh ranked D1 220 2 nights ago, Austin majored the D1 Ohio #3 12-2 , a few weeks back , yet Bucksman ranks the Ohio champ over an undefeated 2x state and national champ from KY with more wins more quality wins altogether and even bigger quality wins in Ohio ,Pretty bias stuff and pretty funny considering all the trash they throw Austin's way , when they show up he beats them and when the Ohio boys dodge him no one says a word yet they talk mass smack about him

Running to KY , it's a shame everyone goes by rankings that are so home state bias .

Primal man crush lol the only people getting crushed is people's rankings lol a ky boy just moved up past all your Ohio favorites and shut up all his detractors . It was only a matter of time

Rough times over on Montgomery rd I hear

 I saw the results from the Moeller v Loveland dual. I am surprised at the results in the upperweights. Go check it out on Baum's. Each team is top heavy at the upper weights, and Loveland won most of those matches. I see Sizemore did not wrestle. I was at state duals at St Eds. A little closer to home than southwest Ohio. Not the greatest comp at this dual, lots of blow outs. I should have trucked on over to Elyria, much better in terms of competitive matches. Your good friend Bucksman has not updated his rankings in quite a while. He will adjust them. I do like Bucksman, though he did have Nye as a top HWT when the kid was going 220. He adjusted him to top five 220.There is another guy that does a good job with Ohio rankings. Concerning rankings. Who really cares? I have often chuckled at the high school football national rankings. Same goes for all sports. There is no way these rankings are accurate. Don't get so riled up about it. Or, here's a thought. You should do your own rankings. It appears as though you spend an inordinate amount of time picking apart the rankings of others. Make better use of your time and contribute in a positive manner. Who are "all these detractors" you talk about? I see no mention of your kids on the Ohio boards. No need to. 

You are making me laugh "no word of my boys "? every loss they have gets overblown in Ohio on Ohio wrestling site and on yappi they get blasted when mentioned and Bucksman updated his site not long ago ,

I'm sure your aware of it Ohio wrestling site is horrendous in their attacks and comments on anything to do with any Myers lol calling ATM fat boy and on and on lol

Yeah Austin beats Nye by ten Freauhauf dodges all of Moes tough tournaments and beats an elder unknown by five the same day and iter ranked kids are setting in the stands who should be in the tourny when Austin is wrestling Nye lol

This week Freauhauf gets stuck by the first decent kid he wrestles , Bucksman is bias no doubt

Nice comment about me doing rankings difference is college recruiters do not look at mine nor do other ranking authorities but they do Lowes . How about this I stick to what I do best creating kids that debunk bias rankings and watch them

Keep beating kids from Ohio and everywhere else and you stick to what you do best wich is nothing other than veiled trash talk , glad I'm confident enough to say what I want when I feel like it I'm not a coward or bs artist who dances around message boards and the truth ,

Yes all of Austin's old Loveland teammates decimated Moellers fab four lol , I like those now kids as well most are just led astray by their hypocrite cowardly sires ,

Like I said no one in Ohio can beat Austin now Bucksman can get on pfarrs jock lol the ref gave Pfarr the match against Bere at Swowca watched it too , Austin would beat him worse than he did Nye .

If you want to hear how trashy your states boards are simply google Stephen and Austin's name and all the Bs pops up , it's all good because it's only fuel for something Ohio hasn't seen in a long time an undefeated 4 x champ ,

I don't pick anyone's rankings apart just state facts , and yes there are Ohio guys who do better than Lowe at rankings , like the ones done for USA wrestling although I'm sure they look at lowes as a measure at times ,

I will look up the Pfarr v Bere match. Is it still on Waycross? I recently read somewhere that Bere is looking at Duke for football. As for the rest of your rant.......whatever dude. You seem to revel in the role of bad guy. Going so far as to create controversy where there is none. A mentor of mine said, "Work hard in silence. Let success make the noise." Give it a go. 

The one fact in all of this is the '14 team isn't going to be a State Champ team today.

Someone told me Otto was a windbag bser they were right

The one fact in all of this is the '14 team isn't going to be a State Champ team today.

Another idiotic post that has nothing to do with 04-12 CC but whatever looks like the only state dual champs today were UNiON who the 12 team beat at state and with that same team would again , think about it ,

The 14 team is not the 12 team a few studs left in it but sad to say not many who have learned from their peers what it takes to win , Yenter Stephen Shaun and ATM from that class paid their dues over the years , some seem to think they come to wrestle most if the time and that's all it takes . A wake up call to some people , now I see how the dumb mentality of just filling a team to make everyone happy vs the lets have a kick @$$ team hurts the level of wrestling in a state. Club teams and private school teams have wrestlers that pay or are recruited who want to do whatever it takes as well as being from everywhere HS public teams have to take what they get and if some do not want to do what it takes to win it will not happen , CC has wrestlers who do what it takes or try as beat they can with what they got others simply go through the motions and cry on game say when they are getting hammered .

Once again I say what I think no fear from inside or out ,

CC needs to fire the superintendent or whoever makes the calls for allowing / disallowing practice , the snow doesn't stop real teams from practicing , no excuses but kids blowing weight and extra sloppy performances at major tournaments are whats in store for teams and schools that do not do what it takes to make sure their wrestlers Are prepared , the 12 team would not even notice the 04 team in a real tournament .

Tarzan,

CC was certainly disappointing to watch on Saturday. Not much desire and very little intensity.

Sitting in the stands I overheard one of the kids say to his parents, "no I'm not sick, I just don't feel good this morning"........ Really, the kids can't be fired up for a match against Trinity in the first round of the STATE DUALS....

Hopefully, things will be different for the State Tournament. Maybe you can shake a few of them by the ankles for us.....oh wait, they don't allow that anymore, haha!

How's that dynasty looking now?

The part that I have influence over looks pretty darn spiffy and the rest aint so bad either , I think I was the first to point out the state dual champs the last few yrs were not the state tournament Champs that yr , perhaps Union will change that this yr perhaps not , either way I saw no team at duals as impressive as CC 12 neither did. Anyone else there .