It seems that every year the quality of wrestling in Kentucky goes higher and higher. Inversely the quality of refs drops. Is there anything that can be done to get some higher quality refs here? The refs need match the skill if the wrestlers.

A wise man once told me, "You can never blame the refs for the outcome of your match, you put yourself in that position to give them that opportunity."

Take Initiative and become an official to solve this "problem."

Well I'm already working on that. And I agree you shouldn't let the red decide the match. However, I saw a lot of calls be made wrong or not at all. For example I watched an OT match where a st. X kid was behind the other wrestler and the other kid put his hands on the mat. That should have been a takedown to win but the ref never called it and let them continue. St. X lost the match and was cheated.

You'd like to think you can take the match out of the refs hand. But let me tell you sometimes refs can and do decide matches. But that's the sport of wrestling, you gotta get used to bad refs

Take your test next summer and officiate. I know most of these refs out there and they are working their tails off.

You'd like to think you can take the match out of the refs hand. But let me tell you sometimes refs can and do decide matches. But that's the sport of wrestling, you gotta get used to bad refs

gotta get used to bad wrestling?

or do you reflect on the mistakes that you made during that match to let the decision/criteria of the referee determine the outcome? 

I have seen this same topic every year since I began as a head coach (finishing 6th season), and someone always posts that if we perceive an issue we should all become officials. First thought is who would coach and most of us wouldn't get any work because of the influx. Becoming an official doesn't solve the problem.

Most refs, especially at state, truly are the best. I rarely have had a complaint. With that said, all of us know at least one ref who doesn't stay on top of the match, gets out of position, and / or misses or makes a call at a critical moment. I assume they all work hard and genuinely want to improve their abilities. I don't think there is a solution.

To me the big issue is the inconsistency. One ref is big on stalling, the other is keenly observant of riding the hips. One ref will call stalling when a wrestler takes a step back, as we were told they have been instructed to do, while others simply seem not to notice the back peddling across the mat.

At the end of the day, all of us have a tough job and we all make judgment calls pertaining to our responsibilities. There is no real solution about the refs, and all of us becoming officials to fix the problem is ludicrous. We just learn to live with whoever gets assigned to our mat.

I had spoken to a ref recently and he had brought up a good point that I think we tend to overlook. We all know how long days at tournaments can be, but the refs spend more time on the mats than the wrestlers. They are on their feet most of the day and by the 11th hour they might not be as quick on their feet as they were that morning. I agree that there should be a higher level of consistency, but find a sport where every call is correct, from the minors to the majors. All be it I will still continuing yelling out and mumbling "how did he miss that" but I appreciate the zebras who take the time to correct our kids and not only call them out.

A wise man once told me, "You can never blame the refs for the outcome of your match, you put yourself in that position to give them that opportunity." Most of the time I would agree but last year the ref screwed Logan jones on a bull crap slam call. Also seen the same bull call on a Midfle school kid at MS state

Take Initiative and become an official to solve this "problem."

Take your test next summer and officiate. I know most of these refs out there and they are working their tails off.

Just because you are working your tail off does not mean you're doing a good job.

Referee.....the only job (well except coaching) where everybody else in the building thinks they can your job better than you.

Sorry there are good one and bad ones and Terrible ones and I saw one ref make tons of mistakes over and over - and over - I think most are very good and do work hard a great group of guys for the most part but a couple that just shouldn't be there , pretty much like every job no ones perfect .

Well I'm already working on that. And I agree you shouldn't let the red decide the match. However, I saw a lot of calls be made wrong or not at all. For example I watched an OT match where a st. X kid was behind the other wrestler and the other kid put his hands on the mat. That should have been a takedown to win but the ref never called it and let them continue. St. X lost the match and was cheated.

My son wrestling at super 32 a few years back lost a match for this exact scenario. He arm dragged the kid 3 times, got behind him....kid put both hands on the mat, even had all his weight on his hands. After the match I complained to the ref and showed the video to the tournament director. Director said two of them were no chance one was questionable, but it was explained to me that a wrestler has to have "reaction time". So if their hands hit, and they pop back up quick enough I was told its not a takedown. Prior to that tournament I was told the rule was if they shift their weight to their hands its a takedown.

I really didn't think the refs done to bad this weekend.. Sure they were some mistakes made but were never going to have a state tournament that is perfectly called, that  simply doesn't happen in any state or nationals. I personally think the wrestlers and coaches need to work on what they can control, because the element of human error will always be present.

You cant criticize the refs until you get out there yourself. I just wish they would call a bigger mat or change the out of bounds rules to college. I did see a lot of line dancing in a few finals matches, so many refs forget the its a responsibility to wrestle inside the 10 foot circle

My problem with the refs is two of the best two in the state weren't even wearing shirts to ref.  They should have taken the two worst that were on the mat and put them in the position of errand runner and paper person instead of those two.  Also I think there needs to be a better use of the two refs on the mat.  The whole purpose for having two refs is not to just catch the wrestlers when they go out of bounds, but to look for locked hands and pay attention to what is happening in the match and make calls and discuss things to get the best outcome in the match.  Not to say "well Im not the official you need to ask him".  And then when you ask the head one he shouldn't say "its my call". 

The mat assistant or 2 ref system, second ref doesn't make calls, its to help with time , to watch for positioning, not to make calls..

The second ref is there to look for locked hands, out of bounds or other calls that the first could not see.  They are there to assist the first one in the calls if asked or if questioned.  Correct, not to blow their whistle and stop action or interrupt it.  But if they see locked hands they are allowed (and expected) to call it or let other ref know.  As well as out of bounds takedowns etc.  They don't need help with time, there are two table workers and a buzzer for that for the other 755 matches and it goes just fine with one then.

Refs can and do change the outcome at times and some are bias for whatever reasons , don't paint a picture of perfection no one believes it .

No matter the sport....

No matter the level...

The referee calls will make somebody happy and somebody else mad.

Its all good if its the right -honest - call

Its all good if its the right -honest - call

Its all good if its the right -honest - call

Its all good if its the right -honest - call

Exactly. If the right calls are made for against who I want I can't argue. But when the wrong calls are made regardless it make me angry

Tarzan, don't have a heart attack but we agree on something (might wana change you meds after this)

One of the best Dave Barnett stories I like to tell was at the Bluegrass State games; he was sitting in the bleachers and some one said aren't you going to the mat to ref aand he turn to that person and said "According to you guys, you can see more up here than I can down there. So Ill just ref from here"

I believe that 99.5 percent o the refs I have seen have gave an honest effort to their abilities and the .5 % is now retired. One of the hardest thing about officiating wrestling is that there is so much left for digression, it doesn't have the concrete rules of baseball, it relies on human judgment. Im extremely knowledgeable of the rules but because of my size, I wasn't the best official even though I did a lot of the top tournaments when I wasn't coaching. I missed calls, I enforced things that other refs didn't enforce. Heck a parent once told me to wait right there while he goes and gets his shotgun. as long as he makes the same call every time he sees it, he is trying as hard as he can.

Two Eighty Franck - I officiated and am now a coach.  Even with my officiating experience I still have issues with refs.  My kid won the match that you claim the St. X kid got cheated.  You are welcome to have your own opinion.  Control is established beyond reaction time.  I agree that reaction time is subjective, just like a lot of our rules are.  I wouldn't go as far as to say a kid was cheated based off of your opinion of what reaction time is.  My opinion is the match wouldn't have even been in overtime if the ref hadn't made a poor call for the St. X wrestler.  My kid earned that win.  It was hard faught and no one gave him anything.

Refs do seem to try and even things out at times it seems to be an unwritten not talked about subject but I have seen them make a bad call for one kid then give the other kid what may be a break later , not good but at least trying to even the scales is honorable of them . Seen it a hundred times

I thought the officiating was the best and most consistent that I've seen all year as it should.  If I could quibble at all it did seem that there were an inordinate amount of last second/match deciding referee awarded points (stalling cautions etc.)

I'm sure my son will be furious - but I have been broken hearted since the weekend and had to vent....

If your son was a Senior and the following happened to him - I bet you would feel a little differently about it:

First Match: Win - Fall 0:50

Second Match:  Win - Fall 0:53

Third Match:  Lost - Dec 7-6  - Our coach discussed points not given with the Ref during the match - Ref refused to award the points - my son lost the match and therefore would not be wrestling the match he had worked so hard to obtain

Fourth Match: Win - Dec 9-5

Fifth Match:  Win - Fall 2:21

Sixth Match:  Lost - Dec 7-6 - Same Ref - same thing - therefore my son lost the match and could not even wrestle for 3rd place

Seventh Match:  Win - Fall 0:36 - He got 5th place

After the finals - the Ref came up to our coach and apologized saying that he messed up on 2 different calls for the 2 matches

WHAT GOOD DOES THAT DO NOW !!!!! - I personally think he wasn't apologizing - I think he was rubbing it in...

If this continues to happen - wrestling in Kentucky will decline - we are just now starting to compete with some of the tougher states - but if the competition keeps getting thinned out at the top - it won't be long until we will be at the bottom again.

Regionals - Same Thing:

My son was in the finals - two Refs - the other Kid kept pulling on his head gear - my son heard the 2nd Ref tell the 1st Ref you better watch him he is pulling on his head gear - GUESS WHAT no calls - my son's head gear had to be readjusted 4 times - insn't that 4 points??? - he lost the match 6-5

They need to tape every match and if a call is disputed - there should be several Refs designated to review the film and make a quick decision - therefore nobody loses a match that he should win - there is too much at stake here - once a bad call is made and the match is lost - you can't get it back!!

I think ref should spend more time looking at rankings and reading this web site so they know who is supposed to win. If that doesn't make him better then call Tarzan, Josh Claywell, Naples, Ranger, or Otto. LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

Referees , killing hope and dreams since 1974

I really never get into post on here I just like reading it for the humor, but after some long deliberation I figured I'd respond to some of this since after all I am a wrestling official and just finished up my 27th year of doing so.  I've had the honor of working in some of the best wrestling states which date back as far as 1988 in Ohio during my college days.  I for one take officiating very seriously and at the end of the day when I come off the mat I'm beat and totally exhausted, I give it my all for the KIDS and the sport that I love(giving back to something that gave so much to me).  I'm not the only official that feels this way, I'm not in it for the money that is for sure.  I was so sore Sun that I thought that I was out there wrestling and I'm in-shape and compete professionally in a sport to this day, so I know I'm not FAT or out of shape.

It's very easy to sit back and be a MONDAY morning quarterback or be one of the brothers; coulda, woulda, shoulda.  The ref should have called, if only the ref would have called, The ref could have called....  What's humorous is that most of the parents have never stepped on the mat to wrestle or if they did they were average at best and think they know more than the officials or coaches(SOMETIMES not ALL).  Just as they do around the office on Monday when their NFL team blows the big game.  If you want to be a part of the solution then take the test and buy your gear, donate your time to the KWOA attend the clinics, attend bi-weekly meetings in your region during season and give up EVERY Sat and one or two nights a week....  We are always looking for new officials.

Rankings:  Ranking are NOT who is guaranteed to win the state title that is just a stretch.  Coming from Ohio there is a guy named Brian Brakeman who has been publishing a report called the "Brakeman Report" for 42 years and his avg is only at about .677%.  A ranking is just an educated guess, Bamma was ranked #1 most of the year and they didn't win the national title...  Brakeman has been at this for 42 years, I was 3 when he started and that was way before the internet and track wrestling and he's only above 500 and has a ton more schools/divisions-D1,D2,D3 and wrestlers to GUESS at then KY does.  I think you get the point...  http://www.cleveland.com/timstake/index.ssf/2013/01/brakeman_report_ohio_wrestling.html

Officials are human, humans make mistakes.  It's the great official that can say "hey I made a mistake".  I personally know of one this past weekend where I called a TD to fast and didn't allow for reaction time.  The kid did score the TD I just gave 2 to fast, could it have went the other way, yes.  Then the score would have still been the same, 0-0 vs. 2-2 for the reversal I would have had to award.  Once the season starts you can go to the National Federation and download the rule book and get SMART on the rules, not what you think you know.  There is a reaction time and it always amazes me when the fans yell 2 or scream he's pinned or he's locking hands.  When I or anyone else is 2-3 feet or 3-4 inches away making a call.  I think fans and parents must have some of the best eyesight known to man or some superman xray vision to make a call 200-300+ feet away this past weekend.

Stalling:  One of the toughest calls in all of wrestling, regardless of the state you officiate in.  It’s a judgment call and then again it's not.  There is criteria that is within the book that we follow and that will guide us to make that call.  NO state is uniform in this area are some stricter, yes, are some officials stricter, yes.... Can we get better as a state YES.  It's one of the hardest to recognize and to get.  If you don’t make contact within the 10ft circle and back out more than once then that could be stalling.  I gave a stalling call to a kid that continued to back up to the point that he went out of bound 3 times and on the 3rd time I called the kid for stalling.  The coach took me to the table and said, "he's pushing us out", "I said yes he is and your kid did nothing to stop it".  Then the very respected coach said "what's he supposed to do"? I simply replied, "how about circle right or left and stay on the mat".  The coach said, "you're right" and went back to his chair and yelled at his kid.  Stalling and the clock:  We do look at the clock from time to time so that we make sure that it is running and to keep tract on the time.  Stalling can occur at any time, at 1:45 in the 1st or at :04 in the 3rd.  I saw a stalling call at :05 in the 3rd in the finals, the kid was up by 2 and was not going to give up his lead and backed up or I should say ran away(I would have done the same thing), that is stalling and it was called regardless of the time in the match. Most of us count shots and use the 3:0 ratio, 3 REAL shots vs NONE your more than likely going to get a stalling call.  Ridding the hips and not getting out to the side and work for a pin, I like to count and to show it with my arm.  That way if I call it you were warned that it's about to come.

I have seen and have known 100s of refs throughout this country and I'd like to think I had a great mentor in Tom Rooney from Central Ohio, not only did he call many of my high school and college matches he took me under his wing and I hope he molded who I am today on the mat.  As a wrestler I would aggressively STAll my ass off to see what I could get away with.  Kids these days are no dif than what we were back then...  One person said it best and something that my high school coach would say, "never leave anything up to the ref".  That means you SCORE and continue to score until the end of the match.

In summary:  If you don't want to be part of the solution then don’t be part of the problem!  Go take the test, it's 100 questions open book no time limit.  Join the KWOA, join your region KWOA, attend meetings give up every Sat from Dec to Feb officiating 10-12 hours a day for the LOVE of this sport. The KWOA is working on a "officiating class" that all new officials will have to take before they become an official.  This will help the officiating within the state of KY.

Here are the links you need.  The KOWA site will have your region reps who will be glad to assist you with anything you need.....  If you like post your questions here and I'm sure I or someone will answer your question about becoming a wrestling official, who knows in 10-15 years maybe you'll be at the state calling the Tour.

"The 1st period is won by the best technician. The 2nd period is won by the kid in the best shape. The 3rd period is won by the kid with the biggest heart" Dan Gable

Talk is cheap, ACTIONS speak louder than words!

Below are the link to help you become an official, the first one has instruction lined out for you on everything you need.

http://kyofficials.com/node/13

http://khsaa.org/coaches-officials/officiating-information/

Great post!!

Great Post!

I'm sure my son will be furious - but I have been broken hearted since the weekend and had to vent....

 

If your son was a Senior and the following happened to him - I bet you would feel a little differently about it:

 

First Match: Win - Fall 0:50

 

Second Match:  Win - Fall 0:53

 

Third Match:  Lost - Dec 7-6  - Our coach discussed points not given with the Ref during the match - Ref refused to award the points - my son lost the match and therefore would not be wrestling the match he had worked so hard to obtain

 

Fourth Match: Win - Dec 9-5

 

Fifth Match:  Win - Fall 2:21

 

Sixth Match:  Lost - Dec 7-6 - Same Ref - same thing - therefore my son lost the match and could not even wrestle for 3rd place

 

Seventh Match:  Win - Fall 0:36 - He got 5th place

 

After the finals - the Ref came up to our coach and apologized saying that he messed up on 2 different calls for the 2 matches

 

WHAT GOOD DOES THAT DO NOW !!!!! - I personally think he wasn't apologizing - I think he was rubbing it in...

 

If this continues to happen - wrestling in Kentucky will decline - we are just now starting to compete with some of the tougher states - but if the competition keeps getting thinned out at the top - it won't be long until we will be at the bottom again.

 

Regionals - Same Thing:

My son was in the finals - two Refs - the other Kid kept pulling on his head gear - my son heard the 2nd Ref tell the 1st Ref you better watch him he is pulling on his head gear - GUESS WHAT no calls - my son's head gear had to be readjusted 4 times - insn't that 4 points??? - he lost the match 6-5

 

They need to tape every match and if a call is disputed - there should be several Refs designated to review the film and make a quick decision - therefore nobody loses a match that he should win - there is too much at stake here - once a bad call is made and the match is lost - you can't get it back!!

 

 

 

 

First, if the ref didnt award teh points then in his opinion they weren't earned. Its not like the kid got a takedown and the ref forgot to give the points. Its like saying a guy got fouled in basketball, then in the 4th period when he gets his 4th foul you start arguing he has 5 because you think he committed a foul earlier. 

Second, most wrestling tournaments barely have the ability to have table workers and people who can keep the score correctly. Now your wanting different camera angles and coaches challenges in a sport thats known for not having breaks? Please tell me you thought this through after typing. 

Your son must be an awesome wrestler if the entire state of ky wrestling is going on the decline because he didnt win a state championship.

Refs make a lot of bad calls period at all levels and nearly all refs take up for each other it will not change . Ohio refs are in no way the best ,

And any # of ky coaches who are honest could attest to the unethical calls aimed at KY kids over and over .

Nice speech but all of us dads are not armchair quarterbacks and some work as hard or harder than any refs and guess what ????

We do not get paid to cheat anyone ,we do it for the love of our kids and the sport ,

Now ask any coach from CC or Sk about some refs . I have seen it in every level and style , Fargo , Ohio , Ky , and nationals , it's all good no one is perfect but sometimes it's less than on the up and up . Sometimes I honestly think someone deserves an @&& beating .!!