It looks like they will be released today at 3:01 central time/ 4:01 eastern time.

Good Luck to all!!

Random draws are out

Brackets are complete and on track.

awesome

Vega v. Cook in qtrs. 113

At heavyweight, Landon Young, Brandon Johnson, Raynel Brown and Hayden Vinegar are all on the same side, wow!!!!!!

220- Myers, Chandler, Kellon Williams and Conner Sherman all on same side.

195- Miozza v. Miller is qtrs., if seeds hold.

Frankrone v. Cornett in 2nd round at 182!!!!!

170 looks evenly spread out and wide open--Is Ryan Woolf a favorite now?

160- Overman v. Nevels 2nd rd. Haddad v. Little qtrs. and Meiman v. Emerson qtrs.

152 evenly spread. looking forward to Hoffman and Williams rd 2.

awesome

Vega v. Cook in qtrs. 113

At heavyweight, Landon Young, Brandon Johnson, Raynel Brown and Hayden Vinegar are all on the same side, wow!!!!!!

220- Myers, Chandler, Kellon Williams and Conner Sherman all on same side.

195- Miozza v. Miller is qtrs., if seeds hold.

Frankrone v. Cornett in 2nd round at 182!!!!!

170 looks evenly spread out and wide open--Is Ryan Woolf a favorite now?

160- Overman v. Nevels 2nd rd. Haddad v. Little qtrs. and Meiman v. Emerson qtrs.

Top heavy at 145.

138 Miller v. Leak 1st round winner most likely has Bryan Spahr

Vasquez v. Wiley rd. 2.

132- Duncan/Smith in quarters.

126- Poynter/Kline and Burroughs/Cambron qtrs. on the top

120 has two quarters that look super tough but overall seems well spread

Tucker/Kraeszig qtrs.-106

Saul Ervin likely awaits in semi's

Klein/Yenter in a bottom quarter.

Heavyweight seems as if is the most imbalanced.

Not sure why they would, or even if they can change the brackets.  The random draw is done for a reason and changing the "random" draw does not seem logical or ethical.  If the brackets change at this point something is wrong with the system.  I look for these to be the brackets used for next weekend.

These will be the final brackets unless illness/injury/skin/weight issues arise and then it will only be adjusted by sliding in the regional alternate and everyone else from that region moves up a seed. There have only been a few times that I can remember the alternate roll up table being used.

These will be the final brackets unless illness/injury/skin/weight issues arise and then it will only be adjusted by sliding in the regional alternate and everyone else from that region moves up a seed. There have only been a few times that I can remember the alternate roll up table being used.

I think it happened last year @ 106

Miller vs Spahr is too good to be a 2nd round match, but these sort of things happen every year, Regaldo and Wells at 113 is another example

I should have said barring injury they should not change.

I wouldn't say Woolf is the favorite in 170's ..I'd give a slight edge to Macintosh but look out for Lawson as my sleeper to win 170's ..Meiman 160's ..Frankrone 182's

Miozza and Miller will be a good match Dodd should coast to the finals in 195s. Look for a region 6 rematch in the 220's with Hamedian and Myers.

Not sure why HS cant seed the region winners, its not that hard. 

I wouldn't say Woolf is the favorite in 170's ..I'd give a slight edge to Macintosh but look out for Lawson as my sleeper to win 170's ..Meiman 160's ..Frankrone 182's

Miozza and Miller will be a good match Dodd should coast to the finals in 195s. Look for a region 6 rematch in the 220's with Hamedian and Myers.

You do realize this is not the same Lawson as last year. This is Isaac Lawson's little brother. He is not a bad wrestler but not the caliper of wrestler you saw last year. Region 1's 170 weight class is much weaker this year than last. 160 and 182 are going to definitely have a couple placers or possibly finalist from region 1 for sure.

The state tournament NEEDS to be seeded! 

Dead horse meet pin2win

I'm all for getting out a new whip and let the beating begin.

How would the seeding be done?  I think it's worth a look but interested in ideas.  I just can't see how a conference call coaches meeting would go (30 different teams according to Track).  Some of these guys don't have any common opponents etc.

Just not sure, why it can't be done.  I thought wrestling involved doing things that may be difficult and tough to get better.  Obviously, this would make the tournament better.  You will always be where you are unless you change.   

supernat not sure why you are so high on Williams at 152? please let me know what I am missing. I looked on track and saw where Tristan Badida pinned Williams earlier this year(unless track is wrong)  Kidwell lost to Badida by 4 the first time and by 2 at regionals. I am not saying Williams wont be there im just not sure why you predicted this.  please let me know your insight..thanks 

I don't think the state tournament would be any more exciting if they seeded the wrestlers.  Look at what is being said about early round match-ups, this will have excitement from the start.  I personally like the random draw.  Does it pit the best two guys against each other early absolutely, but in the end that is what we want to see anyway and to me two studs hitting in the qtrs or semis makes for better wrestling, b/c they know a trip to the finals is on the line.  Either way seeded or random draw the state tourney is a blast to watch.

supernat not sure why you are so high on Williams at 152? please let me know what I am missing. I looked on track and saw where Tristan Badida pinned Williams earlier this year(unless track is wrong)  Kidwell lost to Badida by 4 the first time and by 2 at regionals. I am not saying Williams wont be there im just not sure why you predicted this.  please let me know your insight..thanks 

There's four top level guys in that 8-man bracket: Wright, Hoffman, Williams and Kidwell along with a couple of sleepers. If Kidwell wins wouldn't surprise me at all. I've seen Williams really progress as the season has moved along I think a matchup between him and Hoffman would be exciting.

Why your at it lets just not seed the NCAA's or the Big ten championships, that should go well LOL. Seeds are done for a reason in all the big sporting events, sometimes there are upsets yes but Ive watched several state finals where the top 4-5 guys are on one side and the best one prevails wrestling someone who couldnt beat one one of those 4-5 guys and the finals is awful, a tech fall or a pin in the first period 

So yeah that randown draw is pretty good, always gets the best two guys in the finals

I think a 32 man bracket is ridiculous!!

At 220 1,2,3 and the Harrison county kid on the same side

170 looks evenly spread out and wide open--Is Ryan Woolf a favorite now?

Top 3 ranked wrestlers in the state are on the same side of the bracket. Not very even in my opinion.

Top 3 ranked wrestlers in the state are on the same side of the bracket. Not very even in my opinion.

That's only if the rankings are 100% accurate. 

That's only if the rankings are 100% accurate.

Well that's a given GOO!

The KHSAA or coaches association should have an official person that works for either of the two parties rank the kids.

Week of state after regions, seed the wrestlers based on criteria/rankings as if it were a reg tournament up to say top 4, after that their all about equal anyway. Heck after top 2 or 3 there's a big drop off in skill set.

I think you need the coaches input. They would revolt if it was left up to one person and I would agree.

Who at KHSAA would be qualified to do this?  Heck hardly any of them know what a half nelson is or a single leg. 

I however would have no problem if they picked the top 4 regional champs in each wt. class and separated them with a random draw. That way the supposed top 4 would not meet until the semi's.  

Ranger, I don't think I've ever put you on the spot.....BUT will there be a 2015 Ranger Report? I make no demands, just wondering.

Well that's a given GOO!

Oh snap  !?!?

How could I forget.   

Ranger, I don't think I've ever put you on the spot.....BUT will there be a 2015 Ranger Report? I make no demands, just wondering.

With all this snow and no practice you should have all the time in the world. 

    (looking over my shoulder to make sure there is not a baseball bat heading my way)

Ha ha. Snow doesn't slow down my real work schedule (I work from home full time).

Updated rankings coming later tonight. Dutch and I will be chatting later working on the tournament preview. Hope to post it by Wednesday morning.

Coaches would be there for the seed meeting, it would be like a reg tournament. Seeds based on record, head to head, previous state finish ect.

As others have posted, having the top 3 guys in one side of the bracket is a crime for everyone involved.

Oh I agree 10000%. That's why I pushed to seed the ms state tournament and those coaches have proven it can be done.

Playing devils advocate here. 

When would this meeting happen?  And how would all the coaches be there?  Are the WKy teams going to travel all the way to Frankfort, then back home again?  

Hypothetically it would happen sometime after regions prior to state obviously.

That is a good question I do not have an anwser for, coaches would have to show up to be heard. IMO coaches who refused to show up and wanted to come in morning of state and do seeds should be left out of the conversation, why should a few ruin it for the masses?

Seeding is the responsible and right thing for ky wrestling, imo

The ms has done this the last 2 years with no issues (to my knowledge). We have a conference call the Sunday or Monday night after region. This year the call lasted less than 2 hrs. (Including delays for background noise and waiting for all the beeps to stop as folks dial in and doing a roll call). It's not really all that hard. We have about 90% participation rate. The couple of coaches who don't participate just have their kids thrown in unless another coach has information to share. Actually, it would be easier for HS because of all the information on track.

Why your at it lets just not seed the NCAA's or the Big ten championships, that should go well LOL. Seeds are done for a reason in all the big sporting events, sometimes there are upsets yes but Ive watched several state finals where the top 4-5 guys are on one side and the best one prevails wrestling someone who couldnt beat one one of those 4-5 guys and the finals is awful, a tech fall or a pin in the first period 

 

So yeah that randown draw is pretty good, always gets the best two guys in the finals

Sounds like you or someone close to you was bit in the butt by the random draw.  I myself met my demise in the semis 2 years in a row lost to the #1 guy both times once as the 3rd ranked guy and once as the 2nd ranked guy!  My senior year all but two of the state placers came from my side of the bracket.  So, I feel your pain, if my previous statement is true. 

I still think trying to seed the state tourney would be a nightmare and would not change the outcome other than possibly the finals match-up.  When it all shakes out the champ is still undefeated while second and third still have one lose.  What I am saying is the top guy is going to come through regardless!

Hypothetically it would happen sometime after regions prior to state obviously.

That is a good question I do not have an anwser for, coaches would have to show up to be heard. IMO coaches who refused to show up and wanted to come in morning of state and do seeds should be left out of the conversation, why should a few ruin it for the masses?

Seeding is the responsible and right thing for ky wrestling, imo

Though the phone conference would negate the whole argument I am about to make, just bare with me while I try to explain the life of most coaches.  

Those few that are left out might have a wife and small kids or teach in the district where they give up personal days to even coach on Friday of the State Tourney.  I for one know if they had an in person seed meeting a third or better of the coaches would not make the meeting due to other responsibilities (i.e. job, family, cost not only personal but from the school district, travel to a from, etc.).  So anything other than a phone conference and the idea of seeding is out the window.

Who at KHSAA would be qualified to do this?  Heck hardly any of them know what a half nelson is or a single leg. 

 

I however would have no problem if they picked the top 4 regional champs in each wt. class and separated them with a random draw. That way the supposed top 4 would not meet until the semi's.  

Sorry GOO I usually agree with what you say, but here I disagree.

If you only seed the "top 4" (barring the rankings are correct),  you are still throwing 28 guys into the random draw.  Even if you seeded the top 8 region champs, that leaves 24 random draws.  Now my point with only seeding region champs, some regions have 4 of the top 8 ranked guys so the brackets could be top heavy still.  You can never completely eliminate the lopsided brackets without seeding based off of some other criteria, other than region champs being seeded.   

Never break, no that is not the case. I wrestled when they had district region state and qualifying was quite difficult.

I didn't realize that seeding a high school tournament was harder than seeding the NCAA,S, I missed that memo.

The difference with the finals is great match between two great wrestlers vs one great wrestler and one guy who really doesn't deserve to be there and ends up getting teched or pined.

That's part of a responsibility of being a head coach, if you can't commit then don't put your name down as head coach, be the assistant. Seeding is in the future of this great sport

I also wrestled pre 2002 (the first 32 man state tourney).  Not sure what that has to do with the discussion, but okay!

I have no idea how hard it is or isn't to seed the NCAA's. (please fill us in!)

Also, I do know how hard it is (in some years) to seed a regional tourney and in most cases you are only seeding top 6 not 8 and the bracket is 16 men or less.  So I could imagine seeding the state would be just as hard if not harder.  Especially when factoring in teams like region 6 who have very few in state matches and going off of a ranking system mostly done by one or two people.

You keep working hard to get the state tournament seeded and I will enjoy watching what is still (regardless of random draw or seeding) the greatest show in the state of Kentucky maybe even the world.

I see that reason and reality are not on your radar.

Generally people who are anti change don't seem to quite grasp the big picture and that's what's best for the kids, remember the ones actually wrestling here lol. And those people are left out of the decision making process all together

Last year on this forum we were talking about seeding the State Tournament and I believe it was GOO who had a great idea. 

We run the current Regionals as Districts, which they essentially were before the 32 man bracket at State, and allow the top five to qualify for a Regional tournament the next weekend.  The Regional would consist of two combined Districts, again what they used to do, and the top eight qualify for State...wrestling back to ninth for the alternate.  

This way, we allow the kids to seed themselves based on their performances.  The seeds would be 1 vs 8, 2 vs 7, 3 vs 6, and 4 vs 5.  This would separate the 1s and if the best two kids were in the same regional, it would keep them in opposite brackets.  I understand this makes for three weekends rather than two, but we would just start the series one weekend earlier.   

Oh Geez someone actually listened and maybe even agreed with me.  Man there must be a really really big earthquake coming or a huge comet coming our way.     

I would stop short of 'doesn't deserve to be there' for any kid that made the final.  You talk about seeding it, but honestly that isn't a perfect system either.  Honestly go back to last year, where would Brandon Johnson have been seeded...6th?  Didn't he pin through and in the first period everyone?  The state in my opinion is not yet big enough in the sport to justify a 3 weekend 'playoff'.  Are there kids in the tournament you wouldn't rank as the top 32 for the weight class?  Absolutely.  I believe I even saw a few losing records.  If it is going to be seeded it would be best at this point to just seed a general consensus of say the top 16 and let them random draw from the rest, then go from there.  Even in the very deep 138, this should allow the cream to rise to the top while still allowing for one of the others to have a chance.  I'm definitely not against seeding the tournament, but there has to be a logical method that fits the field and the sport in the state.  3 weeks just seems a bit much.

B10grapple:

Three weeks of wrestling happened for about 30 years.  We have only had the 32 man bracket for about 13 years with no district.  

And as far as I can remember no one ever asked about seeding the state tourney when there was the three weeks. 

I would stop short of 'doesn't deserve to be there' for any kid that made the final.  You talk about seeding it, but honestly that isn't a perfect system either.  Honestly go back to last year, where would Brandon Johnson have been seeded...6th?  Didn't he pin through and in the first period everyone?  The state in my opinion is not yet big enough in the sport to justify a 3 weekend 'playoff'.  Are there kids in the tournament you wouldn't rank as the top 32 for the weight class?  Absolutely.  I believe I even saw a few losing records.  If it is going to be seeded it would be best at this point to just seed a general consensus of say the top 16 and let them random draw from the rest, then go from there.  Even in the very deep 138, this should allow the cream to rise to the top while still allowing for one of the others to have a chance.  I'm definitely not against seeding the tournament, but there has to be a logical method that fits the field and the sport in the state.  3 weeks just seems a bit much.

If we feel we are large enough to allow 32 wrestlers at state...which is debatable...I think it appropriate to consider a three weekend series.  (We actually had three weekends when we allowed only 16 in State and it worked quite well.)  Doing so allows the kids to determine their seedings and it takes the rest of us out of the equation.  Seed the first meet in the series and then let the kids determine where they end up.

One of the reasons the MS is able to seed is because they do have a district, region and state.  Its a 16 man bracket (not saying I want to return to this) with only 8 regional champs to seed. 

Why act like I am lost on reality and reason.  Seems a person who keeps kicking a dead horse would be the one out of touch with reality. 

Like I said in my previous post, You can keep kicking the dead horse trying to changing the minds of the KHSAA on a message board.  Has anyone of any importance tried to submit a proposal to the KHSAA takedownartist have you?

In order to do it right the whole post season schedule would have to be different. 

Finally, your comment about the "kids" what is the difference between second and third?

 

Finally, your comment about the "kids" what is the difference between second and third?

Second is the 1st loser     

One of the reasons the MS is able to seed is because they do have a district, region and state. Its a 16 man bracket (not saying I want to return to this) with only 8 regional champs to seed.

Actually middle school only has 4 region champs to seed. There are 8 districts where top 4 kids from each district qualify for regions. Then 4 regions where top 4 kids from each region qualify for state. The 4 region champs are then seeded.

I will bite on this.  This is my first year coaching in Kentucky (past 6 years in Ohio).  I found it very unfortunate to see the state brackets and hear that everything is a complete random draw.  It makes it very unfortunate that some kids who "should" place won't, and some who "shouldn't" will.  I'm not taking anything away from any of the guys who place, because it takes work to get there no matter how you get there.  Yes, the cream will rise to the top, as they always do, however from my perspective you would believe that the state would want the best kids in the finals all the way around.  There are upsets and guys who should have been the champ end up going for 3/4 or even 5/6 but the opportunity to create good wrestling through each match would be to seperate the kids in an orderly fashion.  Looking at some of these brackets (HWY seems HORRIBLE) it just shows as an unfortunate draw for quite a few. 

In Ohio they do seed the state tournament, and the coaches have ZERO say in how it's drawn.  They do not go off of rankings either.  Your placement on the bracket is random, however if you are a returning placer and a district champ then you are seeded 1, 2, 3, or 4 (only 16 qualify).  They only seed the district champs, based off of returning criteria.  So if you win districts, and placed the year before you will be seeded.  If you win districts and have no criteria, then it's random.  EX: 2 returning placers will be seperated and the other 2 champs who have no criteria will random fall into the other 2 slots. Then obviously everyone else falls into place.  It is not that difficult to do, even with a 32 man bracket, I mean heck you only need to navigate 8 kids, then everyone else falls in. There have been times that the finals match happened in the semi's, but more often than not, the finals are the finals.

Yes this does make for some really good QTRS/SEMIS here in KY, but it is so lopsided in some weight classes that the finals matches will not hold a candle to what took place in the QTRS.

I feel to provide the best competition, and the best wrestling for the state and for the boys who have gone through blood sweat and tears they should seed at least the top 8 region champs.  However, in this first year of coaching in KY, I'm figuring out that the KHSAA is quite a bit different than the things I am used too.......

I think 32 is a large bracket for this, on the flip side I don't think there are enough numbers to qualify 3 weeks just yet.  You would have to combine some regions for a district tourney; you would have to combine 4 regions to create a 16 man bracket, but then would only end up with 8 kids in the state tourney, where would the remaining 8 come from to create a 16 man bracket?  Unless you chagned the number of qualifiers, etc....  I just don't think the numbers are quite there to justify this. 

And third probably lost to the same guy!  my point exactly.

The takedownartist acts like anyone who is not 100% convinced that seeding is the way to go is totally against it.  If I felt there was possible way to seed a 32 man bracket I would be on board and even back the idea, but at this point I have not heard of any, so I am satisfied with separating region placers and random drawing.  If this makes me unrealistic then so be it!

Actually middle school only has 4 region champs to seed. There are 8 districts where top 4 kids from each district qualify for regions. Then 4 regions where top 4 kids from each region qualify for state. The 4 region champs are then seeded.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, Remember in MS, you are dealing with clubs, and the numbers are larger due to a lot of schools can enter more than 1 wrestler per weight right?  That is harder to accomplish in HS, it would be more difficult to fill the brackets.

The ms has done this the last 2 years with no issues (to my knowledge). We have a conference call the Sunday or Monday night after region. This year the call lasted less than 2 hrs. (Including delays for background noise and waiting for all the beeps to stop as folks dial in and doing a roll call). It's not really all that hard. We have about 90% participation rate. The couple of coaches who don't participate just have their kids thrown in unless another coach has information to share. Actually, it would be easier for HS because of all the information on track.

Or a coach has you on the line to do it for them. 

People keep saying seed the region champs...that is proving my point yeah it might fix the lopsided brackets in some cases but brackets will still be lopsided.  

Example:

region - ranked guys

1 - 1,3,4,8

2 - 2,7

3 - 5

4 - 6

5 - no ranked

6 - no ranked

7 - no ranked

8 - no ranked

This scenario which happens quite often example region 6 145 and 132 this year alone.

If you seed the region champs you have to random draw the 3,4,8,7 in the bracket and 4 kids out of the top 8 would be seeded.  Still have the possibility of a stacked bracket does it decrease the chances absolutely, but it is still not fair to the ranked guys who are drawn in.  Factor in the 1 vs 4 and 2 vs 3, then you might keep a tough match out of the mix until the qtrs but that usually happens with the current system as well.

Neverbreak;   I am with you on this.  I have been one of the few that have been against seeding for years. Mostly because I don't think it is possible.  What Coach Wagers says makes a little sense.  But even if we did that others would say will thats not fair. Even though he was a qualifier last year and we were not we beat him so we should be seeded higher.  

It's a never ending process.  That's how I came up with going back to the 3 week scenario with a twist.  5 qualify for regional tourney.  (region can still be 1 day with a 10 man bracket) then qualify eight to state. (keeps the 32 man bracket) which will separate the 4 regional champs into semi finals. This allows the kids to decide some of the seeds.  

I will bite on this.  This is my first year coaching in Kentucky (past 6 years in Ohio).  I found it very unfortunate to see the state brackets and hear that everything is a complete random draw.  It makes it very unfortunate that some kids who "should" place won't, and some who "shouldn't" will.  I'm not taking anything away from any of the guys who place, because it takes work to get there no matter how you get there.  Yes, the cream will rise to the top, as they always do, however from my perspective you would believe that the state would want the best kids in the finals all the way around.  There are upsets and guys who should have been the champ end up going for 3/4 or even 5/6 but the opportunity to create good wrestling through each match would be to seperate the kids in an orderly fashion.  Looking at some of these brackets (HWY seems HORRIBLE) it just shows as an unfortunate draw for quite a few. 

 

In Ohio they do seed the state tournament, and the coaches have ZERO say in how it's drawn.  They do not go off of rankings either.  Your placement on the bracket is random, however if you are a returning placer and a district champ then you are seeded 1, 2, 3, or 4 (only 16 qualify).  They only seed the district champs, based off of returning criteria.  So if you win districts, and placed the year before you will be seeded.  If you win districts and have no criteria, then it's random.  EX: 2 returning placers will be seperated and the other 2 champs who have no criteria will random fall into the other 2 slots. Then obviously everyone else falls into place.  It is not that difficult to do, even with a 32 man bracket, I mean heck you only need to navigate 8 kids, then everyone else falls in. There have been times that the finals match happened in the semi's, but more often than not, the finals are the finals.

 

Yes this does make for some really good QTRS/SEMIS here in KY, but it is so lopsided in some weight classes that the finals matches will not hold a candle to what took place in the QTRS.

I feel to provide the best competition, and the best wrestling for the state and for the boys who have gone through blood sweat and tears they should seed at least the top 8 region champs.  However, in this first year of coaching in KY, I'm figuring out that the KHSAA is quite a bit different than the things I am used too.......

 

I think 32 is a large bracket for this, on the flip side I don't think there are enough numbers to qualify 3 weeks just yet.  You would have to combine some regions for a district tourney; you would have to combine 4 regions to create a 16 man bracket, but then would only end up with 8 kids in the state tourney, where would the remaining 8 come from to create a 16 man bracket?  Unless you chagned the number of qualifiers, etc....  I just don't think the numbers are quite there to justify this. 

Referring to the last paragraph...the current Regions were the old Districts, for the most part.  Then the two Districts in an area would come together the next weekend for the Regional tournament...a step dissolved by the use of the 32 man bracket.  There were 4 Regionals with four wrestlers qualifying out of each for the 16 man State bracket.

What was suggested was having 4 Regionals which would allow 8 qualifiers per Regional, making the total of 32 wrestlers per class.  I would agree that our numbers may not be suitable for a three weekend series, but it seems to be a good option and it would involve little to no seeding.  We currently have about 100 schools that offer wrestling.  There were around 70 when we had the 16 man bracket.  One could argue that we do not even need a 32 man bracket if you consider that we are allowing about 33% of our varsity wrestlers to be state qualifiers.  Of course, I can see support for the 16 and 32 man brackets...dead horse.

using your example neverbreak.

The 1 and 2 would be separated with the 3rd seed on the same side as the 2nd seed. 

Worst case scenario is that the 2 and 3 meet in the quarters then the 2 would meet the 4 in the semi's. 

Still kind of better than what could happen otherwise. 

Geez look at me: arguing for seeding.  Man the snow must be getting to me. 

Referring to the last paragraph...the current Regions were the old Districts, for the most part.  Then the two Districts in an area would come together the next weekend for the Regional tournament...a step dissolved by the use of the 32 man bracket.  There were 4 Regionals with four wrestlers qualifying out of each for the 16 man State bracket.

 

What was suggested was having 4 Regionals which would allow 8 qualifiers per Regional, making the total of 32 wrestlers per class.  I would agree that our numbers may not be suitable for a three weekend series, but it seems to be a good option and it would involve little to no seeding.  We currently have about 100 schools that offer wrestling.  There were around 70 when we had the 16 man bracket.  One could argue that we do not even need a 32 man bracket if you consider that we are allowing about 33% of our varsity wrestlers to be state qualifiers.  Of course, I can see support for the 16 and 32 man brackets...dead horse.

Why do you see support for both brackets?

going with what takedownartist brought up before (we are old pre 32 man bracket old).  When we had district region and state I saw kids from my region miss going to state who I know would have placed if they could have qualified from a weaker region.  Either way if someone gets it approved and the system works I am all for it but right now noone has convinced me it will work with our current 32 man bracket and qualifying events.

using your example neverbreak.

 

The 1 and 2 would be separated with the 3rd seed on the same side as the 2nd seed. 

 

Worst case scenario is that the 2 and 3 meet in the quarters then the 2 would meet the 4 in the semi's. 

 

Still kind of better than what could happen otherwise. 

 

Geez look at me: arguing for seeding.  Man the snow must be getting to me. 

I was typing this at the same time, I guess GOO has faster fingers!

That scenario if you used the Ohio format (pending that was last years placements) would seperate all the guys, and create better semi's and better finals.  That bracket wouldn't be so lopsided, unless I'm seeing this wrong

Referring to the last paragraph...the current Regions were the old Districts, for the most part.  Then the two Districts in an area would come together the next weekend for the Regional tournament...a step dissolved by the use of the 32 man bracket.  There were 4 Regionals with four wrestlers qualifying out of each for the 16 man State bracket.

So the old regionals was a 8 man tourney?  Top 4 from 2 districts?

I was just throwing out numbers but it is still possible to have 2385 or 6 all on the same side of the bracket!

This is similar to the HWT bracket except the 1 and 2 are separated.

I to would be for seeding the High School state tourney but even with seeding its not a sure thing. The middle school seeds its 4 regional champions and it works good for the most part but it still doesn't guarantee much. At this years middle school tourney they were only 1 weight that came out with the top 4 seeded kids placing top 4. The 80lb class came out the top 4 placing exactly how they were seeded with 2 number 2 seeds placing 5th and 6th.

So the old regionals was a 8 man tourney?  Top 4 from 2 districts?

Yes sir.  They had two Districts that would feed into one Region...top four from district went on to the Region.  Then, top four out or region went on to State.  Eight Districts, Four Regionals, State.

FWIW, Indiana does a blind draw on most sports. You could have the state's two top-ranked football teams meet in the first round and a winless team get a bye.

I don't laziness on the state's part to say it's "fair" so they don't have to put in the work and hear the bitching.

Why do you see support for both brackets?

I was not a fan of the 32 man bracket when it was announced, but have since come to see some merit to it.  More participants has led to more spectators which has led to more interest which has led to more involvement....which has been great.  When you allow 1/3 of the wrestlers to qualify for the State Championship, however, it does take some of the luster out of it.

FWIW, Indiana does a blind draw on most sports. You could have the state's two top-ranked football teams meet in the first round and a winless team get a bye.

I don't laziness on the state's part to say it's "fair" so they don't have to put in the work and hear the bitching.

That is correct, but the team sport is a bit different from the individual.  When the team loses...the team is done.  When the individual loses, he can still move on unless it is in the qualification round.  I see what you are saying, however.

I was typing this at the same time, I guess GOO has faster fingers!

 

That scenario if you used the Ohio format (pending that was last years placements) would seperate all the guys, and create better semi's and better finals.  That bracket wouldn't be so lopsided, unless I'm seeing this wrong

I definitely support reseeding the tournament.  However to attempt to model it after Ohio is apples vs. oranges.  Kentucky is not remotely the same in levels of participation or experience.  We need something that works for KY that grows the sport in all regions, including those not directly adjacent to our northern neighbors such as Ohio, Indiana, Illinois.  Once the sport has grown, then adapt.

I beg to differ on the people that think does it really matter 2nd or 3rd.Ask the kids? So many of the kids over the years have said the same thing "I WANT TO WRESTLE UNDER THE LIGHTS" I have been hearing this from kids since elementary.If we seperate top 4 kids we have still improved. Just look no further than the ncaa in football,they only took 4 teams and the team that got robbed the most this year was TCU and even by their coaches own admission ,the system is better now than it was and he had more reason to be upset than anybody.The sport owes it to its wrestlers and fans to try and put the 2 best on the biggest stage,even if that doesn't turn out to be who most people thought im might be such as in the case as ohio state in football this year.

I definitely support reseeding the tournament.  However to attempt to model it after Ohio is apples vs. oranges.  Kentucky is not remotely the same in levels of participation or experience.  We need something that works for KY that grows the sport in all regions, including those not directly adjacent to our northern neighbors such as Ohio, Indiana, Illinois.  Once the sport has grown, then adapt.

The two states are apples vs oranges in referring to number of wrestlers, participation, experience, etc....  However none of those aspects matter when it comes to seeding a tourney.  The goal is still to seperate the best kids.  So modeling the seeding format after Ohio, PA, or whomever would still be better than total random draw like it is currently.  Pick a weight, take all 8 region champs, ascend them in order of returning placers and qualifying experience, then fill the rest in.  I would like to see if the lopsidedness of the brackets is mostly remedied.......

Keeping the 32 man bracket will help support all regions.  someone posted 33% of all wrestlers qualify, that is a good number, and a good way to get kids interested with an obtainable goal.  More so of switching it to 16 man brackets and a 3 week process would be something to adapt to after there is more growth.  Growth mainly comes from your youth programs however.  And I believe that over the next few years the numbers are growing rapidly based on the groups coming up. 

I understand now coach.  That does make more sense.  I think 33% is a good number.  I just never have thought it was a good idea to involve fewer than those we have making it to states.  The way to grow the sport is definitley through youth programs. 

District region state was done with a 16 man bracket for ever, 30 plus years and there were no problems , no need to restructure anything. Qualifying would be more difficult and some kids wouldn't get to go.

And Neverbreak if you cant distinguish the difference between the top few guys in state vs the rest well.....try to figure that out, might help ya or we could just have lop sided brackets which is so great to watch for state finals, we should random draw the NCAA bball tournament to right?

Really wonder what the Coaches association would vote??

District region state was done with a 16 man bracket for ever, 30 plus years and there were no problems , no need to restructure anything. Qualifying would be more difficult and some kids wouldn't get to go.

And Neverbreak if you cant distinguish the difference between the top few guys in state vs the rest well.....try to figure that out, might help ya or we could just have lop sided brackets which is so great to watch for state finals, we should random draw the NCAA bball tournament to right?

Really wonder what the Coaches association would vote??

I'm not sure how they would vote.

IF  

There vote is informed and not an emotional vote.

 Everyone will agree that separating the best two wrestlers in a tourney is the right thing to do. No question about that.  

The real question is how do you decide the best two wrestlers?  Some say have a coaches seed meeting, every coach should be in attendance.  Have you ever been to a regional seed meeting?  Coaches have a hard time agreeing there. 

Some coaches will not be able to attend.  Most are teachers themselves or have other jobs to attend to.  They also have practice to run (for those that are hours away).

The answer to that was "if you can't do these things then don't be a head coach"  How many teams only have 1 coach (I know Scott High only has 1 coach) And if they didn't coach then there would not be a team at several schools.  

There are many logistics that would need to be worked out, before an "informed" vote could be made.  

Coming on here and just saying it should be done is easy.  Figure out a way for it to be done fairly to all, not just the power teams, take into consideration those small teams with a hand full of wrestlers with only 1 coach that has to do it all, along with convincing their school to keep the team going. 

That is how I came up with my idea of going 3 weeks again. Problem there is that there may be an extra cost for some teams, along with shortening the regular season by one week. (KHSAA will not extend the season another week).

By the way it takes what 4 days for the NCAA to seed their BB tourney, and those are experts. 

Those are all great points, your are right easier said than done, maybe in the near future some solutions will be brought to light.

I'm not sure how they would vote.

 

IF  

 

There vote is informed and not an emotional vote.

 

 Everyone will agree that separating the best two wrestlers in a tourney is the right thing to do. No question about that.  

 

The real question is how do you decide the best two wrestlers?  Some say have a coaches seed meeting, every coach should be in attendance.  Have you ever been to a regional seed meeting?  Coaches have a hard time agreeing there. 

Some coaches will not be able to attend.  Most are teachers themselves or have other jobs to attend to.  They also have practice to run (for those that are hours away).

 

The answer to that was "if you can't do these things then don't be a head coach"  How many teams only have 1 coach (I know Scott High only has 1 coach) And if they didn't coach then there would not be a team at several schools.  

 

There are many logistics that would need to be worked out, before an "informed" vote could be made.  

 

Coming on here and just saying it should be done is easy.  Figure out a way for it to be done fairly to all, not just the power teams, take into consideration those small teams with a hand full of wrestlers with only 1 coach that has to do it all, along with convincing their school to keep the team going. 

 

That is how I came up with my idea of going 3 weeks again. Problem there is that there may be an extra cost for some teams, along with shortening the regular season by one week. (KHSAA will not extend the season another week).

 

By the way it takes what 4 days for the NCAA to seed their BB tourney, and those are experts. 

Exactly, this is all I was saying to begin with.  So many people complain but nobody offers a viable solution that fits the state.  Much easier said than done.

takedownartist,

You can twist what I say however you want, but I never said anything about the lower placers being as tough as 1-4, in some cases they are, but usually not.

If you only come to watch the finals ("where the best matches take place") you are not a real fan of the sport.  

This is where I insert my opinion whether you agree or not it is mine and I am entitled to it.

The state tournament is not only about the finals I hope you realize that  . So the 1-2 meet in the quarters or semis, oh well poop happens, the number 2 should still come back and get third.  He still lost to the same guy as the person who gets 2nd.  There is no difference between 2nd and 3rd, except maybe wrestling under the lights, which isn't really that special anymore (thanks KHSAA).

Brackets with the top three guys on each side are common and ridiculous , not seeding the tournament is admitting ignorance as well as laziness , Also the way the regions are so ignorantly lopsided giving decent teams from regions without good all around Union in particular would only make it worse if you narrowed it down more because their region is still weak. Red 6 will once again probably have the most points at state and that's with kids knocked out that would win most other regions .

SORRY TO BE FACTUAL but looking at just the top two weights 4 out of the five best on one side and it's common place , seen it every yr , makes the tournament lopsided and changes every possibility of a fair tournament because whoever is in charge cannot figure out what any group of freshmen wrestlers in the state could and seed the tournament , and I see JV teams that have and could beat some regular dist champs soooh Enjoy the tournament and get your snow shoes on its a winter sport quit crying and if your to askeered to show up no one wanted to see you get pinned in a few seconds anyway ,

AVENGERS ASSEMBLE it's CLOBBERING TIME THUNDER CATS HOOOOO By the Power OF Red bull and Kameeeee Ameeee AHMeeeee Haaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Seeding regional champs is the most fair and practical way.

It can be done and Ranger can prove it!!

I agree with you Tapout. They could seed all 8 and everyone else falls in line. I did not think for a minute this would work when it was don at the Middle School level. But it has. Now I'm not saying there wouldn't be good early match ups but it makes sense to try to have the best meet when it counts, under the lights. I'm for seeding it, but as I said before, if MS can do it, we can too.

I wrestled in the 90' s and there was no need to seed the state tournament. The wrestlers decided their draw by how they placed at Region. I prefer to go back to the three weekends of wrestling and lettin the wrestlers decide where try are seeded for the state tournament based on how they wrestled at regions. Top 4 from district continued to region (districts), top 4 from region(4 regions), seeded in state tourney based on regional placement (regional winners were 1 seeds and you split up regionals and everyone else fell in line).There were fewer wrestlers in the state then than there are now, not sure why this format was changed but I think was a mistake. Bye, it used to be an accomplishment to wrestle at state but now, as has been said, almost everyone gets to wrestle at state.