Topic ID: 11739 | 137 Posts
Check out this quick formula to show who brought the best team not the biggest. It's simple devide the number of points a team scored by the number of wrestlers they had. The sum is the average pts each wrestler earned for his team.
Raiders. 313÷55=5.69
Braves. 224÷28=8.00
River 202÷52=3.88
Union 180÷29=6.20
Pounders 115÷14=8.21
Dear Mr. Purchase Pounder,
Congrats on your unbelievable season. We'll add it to the KY Youth Wrestling archives.
Matt Lee
Raider Youth Wrestling
You can't leave us hanging on that!!!
Just want it to be clear. The Braves don't cut our roster for state. We believe every kid gets the chance to experience Youth State!!
So just to be clear Purchase Pounder coach, you believe that you have the best team in the State because you brought 14 quality wrestlers. Please keep in mind that as the largest club in Kentucky we don't discriminate against any participation at Yourh State. We believe each kid( no matter how green they are) should experience this great atmosphere. Gives them something to look forward to. You'll never see us keeping our numbers down to get our PPW average up. To each their own!! We'll continue adding more kids to this great sport and help Kentucky Wrestling grow and you guys keep increasing your PPW!! Congrats on a great season and tell the 2 boys that didn't make it on your roster we'll take them.
That is a nice metric, BUT one thing I learned as a leader in this organization is that the primary goal of this event and our youth program overall is participation and growth.
So I would rather see 800 more kids there even if a lot of them are 0-2 kids. Sure I could add Spencer Moore and Isham Peace to the Walton roster and leave some of the first year kids at home and we would be right there with your metric. But that doesn't say much about our youth program. We need numbers and more numbers. In fact I would like to give every team a trophy who brings 30+ kids.
All we ask is they attended practice. Last year we had 27 kids and took 1st. We would never deny a kid a chance to wrestle in the state tournament if they were coming to practice. Not sure were you are getting your information from, but our numbers are down this year and any kid that wanted to wrestle at state had the opportunity.
Check out this quick formula to show who brought the best team not the biggest. It's simple devide the number of points a team scored by the number of wrestlers they had. The sum is the average pts each wrestler earned for his team.
Raiders. 313÷55=5.69
Braves. 224÷28=8.00
River 202÷52=3.88
Union 180÷29=6.20
Pounders 115÷14=8.21
With that formula, Colonel Wrestling Club appears to have brought the best team with an average of 9. 
.
That would be awesome.
What team are you with
Raider Nation. The club that brings all of our kids not just the ones that will score points. Its about growth not PPW!!!
Purchase Pounder coach, Chris Duke has 2 wrestlers that wrestle for Raider Wrestling. His son was runner up in the Middle school State as a 5th grader at 105 and his younger boy was a national placer. I'd say they'll help our PPW in the Dual!
I'm not trying to talk trash. Or start anything. I don't think we should use that formula for team title or anything. It was just a statement. We are a wrestling club over 4 hours away from Lexington so parents had to bring their kids. Everyone who wanted to wrestle did. We do not deny any child the chance to wrestle at the state tournament
I am curious why we are being accused of just bringing the kids who will score points
Congrats on the KY state tournament. It looks like you all had a good one.
In Indiana we have three different team races; small, medium, and large. I think to be considered in the small, you must field at least 8 wrestlers. It isn't a perfect system but it is the one we use. We have a separate category for academies as well.
We also do a dual team state tournament which adds another aspect of coming up with a team champion.
At any rate, congrats on growing wrestling in your state. I love hearing about our sport growing period. Thanks for your dedication to the kids and wrestling.
Congrats on the KY state tournament. It looks like you all had a good one.
In Indiana we have three different team races; small, medium, and large. I think to be considered in the small, you must field at least 8 wrestlers. It isn't a perfect system but it is the one we use. We have a separate category for academies as well.
We also do a dual team state tournament which adds another aspect of coming up with a team champion.
At any rate, congrats on growing wrestling in your state. I love hearing about our sport growing period. Thanks for your dedication to the kids and wrestling.
A couple years ago we adapted to this same concept. We also have 3 divisions. We wanted to give all teams a chance to compete for a championship. We bought more trophies which awards 12 teams total. The only problem is when teams use last years cut off numbers and try to keep kids from participating. I say bring what you have, let the kids wrestle and have fun and you might be suprised. I had several 1st year wrestlers up on the podium scoring points. And How about the Colonels and Braves. Top of their divisions with what they brought. Congrats to all the teams that took home hardware!!
I believe you have the wrong idea about our team. I'm not taking anything away from the kids. All teams did an amazing job. Very tough competition. Very proud of the whole state.
We fell short of hardware but we had a lot of 1st year kids and moved up in divisions. We had 14 kids wrestle at state last year and 22 this year, not counting the 3 who had to scratch. Which means we are certainly growing and still being pretty competitive. I hope through our efforts we can get Martin County (Sheldon Clark) back to where they once were... and beyond!!
I'm not trying to talk trash. Or start anything. I don't think we should use that formula for team title or anything. It was just a statement. We are a wrestling club over 4 hours away from Lexington so parents had to bring their kids. Everyone who wanted to wrestle did. We do not deny any child the chance to wrestle at the state tournament
Oh talking trash is exactly what you are doing. You did much more than make a statement, you went out of your way to create a mathematical matrix in an attempt to prove you had the "best team". So since you wanted to compare clubs and are obviously trying to criticize the larger teams....lets break it down.
The Raiders only had 47 participants. Of those 47, they had 8 champions and 10 runners-up. We also had two youth aged kids who could not participate in the youth state because they placed in the top 4 of middle school. Looking at the brackets they would have been in, they would have most likely won their weight class giving us a total of 10 champions and 10 runners-up. I know this also hurt other clubs like Connor, WV, and Union County. Did Purchase Pounders have any kids that couldn't wrestle at youth state because they placed at Middle School? However, even forgetting about those two kids, Raiders had 10 champions and 8 runners-up compared to Purchase Pounders 2 champions and 3 runners-up. In fact, Purchase Pounders had a total of 12 place winners where the Raiders had 18 in the finals. So it is statiscally obvious that the best of the best from the Raiders out performed the best of the best from Purchase Pounders even with two of our studs out no matter how you look at it.
The goal at the youth level should always be to grow the numbers as much as possible to expose as many kids and families to the sport. If you want to declare your team the "best team" because you had a couple champions and a few placers, then go for it. However, as a youth coach, you should evaluate yourself on your ability to accomplish growing your team as much if not more than how good your best 5 kids perform at state. I am much more impressed by the teams like the Braves and Union County that do a great job of exposing wrestling to as many kids in their communities as possible. It is much harder to deal with running a team of 50-60 kids than it is 10-20. You have to have more coaches, fund raising, volunteers, larger practice facility, more mats, etc. Instead of pounding your chest and declaring your team the "best" I would be more concerned with the fact that you brought almost 40% less kids to state this year compared to last year.
I am curious why we are being accused of just bringing the kids who will score points
It was well known that a coach/parent from Purchase Pounders was very concerned around the divisional cutoff for the team title. He went so far as to say he had a couple of kids that rarely come to practice that wanted to go to state and he was concerned their participation would move them from division 3 to division 2. Not sure if these kids were allowed to wrestle or not. But, when someone from Purchase Pounders gets on here and claims they are the "best team and not the biggest", it sure looks fishy. I know this for a fact, the Raiders want as many kids to come to state as possible for the experience of it more so than their potential points earned for the team race. They would never discourage a kid from coming for any reason.
We fell short of hardware but we had a lot of 1st year kids and moved up in divisions. We had 14 kids wrestle at state last year and 22 this year, not counting the 3 who had to scratch. Which means we are certainly growing and still being pretty competitive. I hope through our efforts we can get Martin County (Sheldon Clark) back to where they once were... and beyond!!
That's exactly what we hope to see. And Martin Co was very impressive in that morning session. At some point I'm pretty sure you were near the top of the leader board and a couple coaches commented on that fact. Keep working and getting kids involved and Sheldon Clark will reap the rewards.
I'm not the coach. I love the sport.my son wrestles for them.I Never had the opportunity to wrestle in Kentucky when I was in school. So I'm no expert on how this all works. I know we brought every kid that wanted to wrestle. Which happen to be 14 we won 2nd and the team that won 1st had 28. That's twice the chances to score. Thats why I did the math. I probably should have chosen another way to word it. My bad. The 2 kids you said rarely come to practice. Was not apart of any practice or any team function for the last 3 months. I didn't know they still wanted to wrestle until last Friday. The team that won 1st did an amazing job also had a high % of placers. I'm really not trying to put any team down
I'm not the coach. I love the sport.my son wrestles for them.I Never had the opportunity to wrestle in Kentucky when I was in school. So I'm no expert on how this all works. I know we brought every kid that wanted to wrestle. Which happen to be 14 we won 2nd and the team that won 1st had 28. That's twice the chances to score. Thats why I did the math. I probably should have chosen another way to word it. My bad. The 2 kids you said rarely come to practice. Was not apart of any practice or any team function for the last 3 months. I didn't know they still wanted to wrestle until last Friday. The team that won 1st did an amazing job also had a high % of placers. I'm really not trying to put any
No problem. Good luck to you and your team.
Martin County (Sheldon Clark) has a great youth program with great kids and awesome coaches. Blue is at Johnson County (has been the last 4 years) which also has a great program and a coach second to no one and he loves it. But to be truthful without Martin County and Coach Stafford Blue would not be wrestling. Thanks for twisting my arm coach. I think these coaches have MC on the right tack with this group of kids.
Not sure were Johnson County finished team wise Blue and I couldnt make it van wouldnt get out of the driveway lol. JC also had a kid (Blue) that couldnt participate in youth state due to placing top 4 at middle school state.
Our coach goes out of his way to recruit kids. He goes to all the local schools passing out flyers. A first year wrestler(that didn't place) rode with his family to tournament.because his parents couldn't take him. The two wrestles in question placed at the state tournament last year. He was telling me the night before state that they would probably still place. Despite not doing any wrestling activity in 3 months. My son didn't place last year and he never hinted at him not needing to go. If it wasn't for him my son would not have the chance to wrestle. Yes he is competitive but not to the level of denying a child the experience of wrestling in state.
Our coach goes out of his way to recruit kids. He goes to all the local schools passing out flyers. A first year wrestler(that didn't place) rode with his family to tournament.because his parents couldn't take him. The two wrestles in question placed at the state tournament last year. He was telling me the night before state that they would probably still place. Despite not doing any wrestling activity in 3 months. My son didn't place last year and he never hinted at him not needing to go. If it wasn't for him my son would not have the chance to wrestle. Yes he is competitive but not to the level of denying a child the experience of wrestling in state.
I don't know all the circumstances around those kids and I don't really care. However, I don't think there should be any situation where willing kids shouldn't be able to participate at youth state. I don't like the rule preventing youth aged middle school placers from participating. When will a wrestler ever be more evenly matched up against other wrestlers by age and weight than at the youth state? In middle school and high school there is a much greater chance of kids competing against each other who have a 3-4 year age difference and possibly much smaller due to weight cutting. At youth, these kids are all practically the exact age and weight. I just think it takes away a little of the luster when you keep some of our best kids out and I can't see any benefit in doing it, especially with 16 man brackets.
I think the fact that this discussion can even take place shows improvement in the state we are talking about a decent youth program all the way in Mayfield Kentucky
Raider coach-----I believe the rule that keeps youth aged kids that place top 4 at middle school state out of the youth state tournament is one of the best rules we have to help keep youth state competitive. I have no doubt your 2 state placers would have won youth state in their division. They should though, hence the top 4 placement at middle school state. Letting them wrestle youth state would be for no reason other than to say yippie my boys a state champ. You say there's no benefit. I say it only benefits them to let them wrestle. I can assure you their respective brackets were not lacking competition this past Sunday. Not one kid in their bracket went home unfulfilled because they didn't get pounded by a middle school state placer that is the same age and weight as them. I believe that's where we as parents and coaches should help them keep things in perspective and understand that the top 4 finish at middle school state is a much bigger accomplishment for a youth aged wrestler than a youth state championship.
Just a thought. Say the smallest team in the division has 14 kids what if all the teams with more kids in that division only used the points scored by their highest 14 placers. With a minimum number of kids in the smallest division. When you have 2 teams in the same division with one having twice the chance to score isn't exactly fair. I don't know it's just a thought
Just a thought. Say the smallest team in the division has 14 kids what if all the teams with more kids in that division only used the points scored by their highest 14 placers. With a minimum number of kids in the smallest division. When you have 2 teams in the same division with one having twice the chance to score isn't exactly fair. I don't know it's just a
We need to start a Yourh State Dual Championship. Just like Middle school, the more quality you bring/qualify the better your chances of winning!
Raider coach-----I believe the rule that keeps youth aged kids that place top 4 at middle school state out of the youth state tournament is one of the best rules we have to help keep youth state competitive. I have no doubt your 2 state placers would have won youth state in their division. They should though, hence the top 4 placement at middle school state. Letting them wrestle youth state would be for no reason other than to say yippie my boys a state champ. You say there's no benefit. I say it only benefits them to let them wrestle. I can assure you their respective brackets were not lacking competition this past Sunday. Not one kid in their bracket went home unfulfilled because they didn't get pounded by a middle school state placer that is the same age and weight as them. I believe that's where we as parents and coaches should help them keep things in perspective and understand that the top 4 finish at middle school state is a much bigger accomplishment for a youth aged wrestler than a youth state championship.
Actually, I know that had all the middle school placers been able to wrestle, one of our placers probably would not have won the youth tournament considering the kid that won his weight at middle school was also youth aged! I don't disagree with the other points you made except I belive there is benefit of showcasing these kids at the state tournament. Wrestling is a sport of imitation. Kids who want to get better watch and imitate those that are successful. I vividly remember as a youth aged wrestler watching everything that the best wrestlers did at every tournament I went to....what they wore, how they warmed up, what moves they hit, how they reacted when they won or lost. Kids still do this today. When we don't allow our best to showcase their stuff at state, I believe we miss out on that. I'm not saying it's a huge loss since we are only talking about a few kids.
However, back to my original point, how is it in any way unfair to allow these kids to compete against other kids who are practically the exact same age and weight? If we do it at youth, why don't we do it at middle school? If a middle school kid is ranked or even varsity on his high school team, why don't we prevent them from wrestling in middle school? After all, there realistically could be a high school ranked 8th grader who is cutting weight wrestling against 5th and 6th graders in middle school who are wrestling their natural weight and are 3-4 years younger. There is a much greater chance of there being a larger gap in experience, size, and age at the middle and high school levels, but we don't keep those kids from wrestling. Just to be clear, I'm not in favor of any of that. I just don't think it makes sense and its rather hypocritical to do this at youth.
Just a thought. Say the smallest team in the division has 14 kids what if all the teams with more kids in that division only used the points scored by their highest 14 placers. With a minimum number of kids in the smallest division. When you have 2 teams in the same division with one having twice the chance to score isn't exactly fair. I don't know it's just a thought
That would require each coach to tell us their preferred point scorers. That could work but honestly we are lucky to get simple rosters in a timely manner so we can build brackets.
That also leads to the situation where every kid doesn't score hence they don't all matter. If ryle and river city only have X point scorers what incentive do they have to push more and more kids into the event.
How would that work for Division 3? Only 1 scorer?
And finally, Braves (Grant Co) had 10 finalists and their top 14 kids scored 175 pts so that doesn't necessarily change any finish order.
I want to say congrats to a Shamrock wrestler, Jack Cummings. Kid was a huge gamer all day, and had my son worried during the tourney. I just want jack to know that he is a hell of a wrestler and the finals match could of gone either way. I also want Jack to know that he brings the best out of my son (Jackson Belk) when they wrestle. His parents are a class act, and I just want to give the kid props, because he handled himself like a champion when he lost in the last 6 seconds. Yes he was upset, but he got up and acted like a young man when shaking hands. Myself and my son have huge respect for Jack Cummings and his family. Thank you all for a great tournament.
Raider coach-----I believe the rule that keeps youth aged kids that place top 4 at middle school state out of the youth state tournament is one of the best rules we have to help keep youth state competitive. I have no doubt your 2 state placers would have won youth state in their division. They should though, hence the top 4 placement at middle school state. Letting them wrestle youth state would be for no reason other than to say yippie my boys a state champ. You say there's no benefit. I say it only benefits them to let them wrestle. I can assure you their respective brackets were not lacking competition this past Sunday. Not one kid in their bracket went home unfulfilled because they didn't get pounded by a middle school state placer that is the same age and weight as them. I believe that's where we as parents and coaches should help them keep things in perspective and understand that the top 4 finish at middle school state is a much bigger accomplishment for a youth aged wrestler than a youth state championship.
I agree with this 100%. Especially the last sentence.
I want to say congrats to a Shamrock wrestler, Jack Cummings. Kid was a huge gamer all day, and had my son worried during the tourney. I just want jack to know that he is a hell of a wrestler and the finals match could of gone either way. I also want Jack to know that he brings the best out of my son (Jackson Belk) when they wrestle. His parents are a class act, and I just want to give the kid props, because he handled himself like a champion when he lost in the last 6 seconds. Yes he was upset, but he got up and acted like a young man when shaking hands. Myself and my son have huge respect for Jack Cummings and his family. Thank you all for a great tournament.
Jack and his father are two people my son and I seek out at each tournament to speak with. Great people and a joy to be around. Jack has a very bright future.
I know that the debate about middle school placers wrestling at youth state will continue to a hot topic. I agree with the current rule that does not allow those who place top four in middle school to compete at youth state.
There are now several youth age wrestlers who have won 2 middle school state titles. We all know that if these kids compete at youth state, they will win their brackets. Who does this benefit?? Not the multiple time middle school state champs. These boys already have bigger and better titles. Not the youth age kids who could have placed or won titles at youth state if these middle school champs are not able to compete. So why not give these other youth age wrestlers a chance to stand on the podium and get their recognition?
In my opinion, you can't compare youth wrestling middle school and middle school wrestling high school. How many KY middle schoolers have won a HS state title?? Only a few. How many have done so at 7th grade or below? Because youth allows some kids to wrestle who are 7th graders, there are a huge number of middle state champs who are eligible to wrestle youth state. Those same numbers do not carry over from high school to middle school.
The points could be added up after the tournament is done. That way all kids have a chance to earn points for their team. Their would have to be a minimum for division 3. 1 kid could not be a team. And yes grant county did a great job and earned 1st place. Its just an idea for the smaller teams in each division to have a equal opportunity. Especially with the difference from smallest to largest team in each division
The idea is to grow your programs and wrestling in Kenticky. We made 3 divisions for the sole purpose to give different size clubs the chance to win. If we want to limit it to specific scorers then we need to establish a Kentucky State Youth Dual Championships. Top 3 or 4 get awards and top 2 teams get medals for wrestlers
I know that the debate about middle school placers wrestling at youth state will continue to a hot topic. I agree with the current rule that does not allow those who place top four in middle school to compete at youth state.
There are now several youth age wrestlers who have won 2 middle school state titles. We all know that if these kids compete at youth state, they will win their brackets. Who does this benefit?? Not the multiple time middle school state champs. These boys already have bigger and better titles. Not the youth age kids who could have placed or won titles at youth state if these middle school champs are not able to compete. So why not give these other youth age wrestlers a chance to stand on the podium and get their recognition?
In my opinion, you can't compare youth wrestling middle school and middle school wrestling high school. How many KY middle schoolers have won a HS state title?? Only a few. How many have done so at 7th grade or below? Because youth allows some kids to wrestle who are 7th graders, there are a huge number of middle state champs who are eligible to wrestle youth state. Those same numbers do not carry over from high school to middle school.
I don't see how you can't compare the two. First, there aren't a "huge number of middle school state champs eligible to wreste youth state". There are only a few a year and almost always they are kids at the lightest weights where those weights are mostly filled with youth aged kids anyway. Also, we aren't talking about just champs, but top 4. There have been plenty of top 4 placers over the years at high school who were 8th graders and again, it's mostly at the lightest weight classes where there are many more middle school wrestlers participating at those weights. There are many similarities between these two situations.
The point that you aren't reconginzing is how close we match up the youth aged kids in age and weight. Again, this is a close as these kids will ever be matched up in age and weight in their entire careers, yet we are arbitrarily saying these select few can't compete for what...safety or because we want other kids to have a chance to stand on the podium? Can't the same be said about stud middle schoolers who do well at high school? It's the exact same thing. The only difference is, we have the high school state after the middle school state so we don't know who those placers are at the time the middle school championship is wrestled.
I really don't have a dog in this fight. I just hate when kids who want to compete have that taken away from them because of some silly rule that isn't based on common sense. We've had a few kids where this has happened to and all of them I have spoken with would have preferred to have been able to wrestle the youth state. Of course they are proud of placing at middle school and anyone can recognize thats a greater accomplishment, but why shouldn't the kid be able to do both if he earned it?
I don't know if we would have enough kids for every weight class. This is my sons 2nd year and he's never done a dual. I have a good idea what it is. But not 100% sure how it works
I don't have the time nor desire to research all the top 4 placers however, 5 of the 15 middle school state champs were eligible for youth state. That is 1/3. How many of last years high school state champs were middle schoolers last year? I believe only Carr was a middle schooler. I venture to say that if we looked at top 4 placers at high school and middle school state we would find a similar percentageI don't see how you can't compare the two. First, there aren't a "huge number of middle school state champs eligible to wreste youth state". There are only a few a year and almost always they are kids at the lightest weights where those weights are mostly filled with youth aged kids anyway. Also, we aren't talking about just champs, but top 4. There have been plenty of top 4 placers over the years at high school who were 8th graders and again, it's mostly at the lightest weight classes where there are many more middle school wrestlers participating at those weights. There are many similarities between these two situations.
The point that you aren't reconginzing is how close we match up the youth aged kids in age and weight. Again, this is a close as these kids will ever be matched up in age and weight in their entire careers, yet we are arbitrarily saying these select few can't compete for what...safety or because we want other kids to have a chance to stand on the podium? Can't the same be said about stud middle schoolers who do well at high school? It's the exact same thing. The only difference is, we have the high school state after the middle school state so we don't know who those placers are at the time the middle school championship is wrestled.
I really don't have a dog in this fight. I just hate when kids who want to compete have that taken away from them because of some silly rule that isn't based on common sense. We've had a few kids where this has happened to and all of them I have spoken with would have preferred to have been able to wrestle the youth state. Of course they are proud of placing at middle school and anyone can recognize thats a greater accomplishment, but why shouldn't the kid be able to do both if he earned it?
The major difference when comparing youth/MS and MS/HS is the goals of the programs. Youth we want numbers and growth. So giving those less experienced kids a better opportunity to have their moment in the spotlight with Darren. While MS we are more focused on competition.
I don't have the time nor desire to research all the top 4 placers however, 5 of the 15 middle school state champs were eligible for youth state. That is 1/3. How many of last years high school state champs were middle schoolers last year? I believe only Carr was a middle schooler. I venture to say that if we looked at top 4 placers at high school and middle school state we would find a similar percentage
If you really want to make a fair comparison, look at the percentage of kids participating who were actually youth aged in those weights compared to the weights in high school. I'm totally guessing, but I would expect the lightest 5 weights in middle school have a very high percentage of youth aged kids participating in middle school, at least much higher than the lightest 5 weights in high school. Just looking at Ranger's rankings, there are way more kids that are youth aged in those 5 lightest weight classes compared to the amount of middle school kids ranked in high school. How many middle school kids actually weigh 70lbs or less? I'm an average sized adult and was average sized in 8th grade and I weighed over 120lbs. Lets face it, those weight classes are filled with youth aged kids, hence you are going to have a high percentage of youth aged champions coming from those weights. All the more reason to let them wrestle at youth state!
I don't have the time nor desire to research all the top 4 placers however, 5 of the 15 middle school state champs were eligible for youth state. That is 1/3. How many of last years high school state champs were middle schoolers last year? I believe only Carr was a middle schooler. I venture to say that if we looked at top 4 placers at high school and middle school state we would find a similar percentage
I voted against the MS/Youth rule. I was certainly in the minority. Here are my key reasons why I dislike the rule:
The major difference when comparing youth/MS and MS/HS is the goals of the programs. Youth we want numbers and growth. So giving those less experienced kids a better opportunity to have their moment in the spotlight with Darren. While MS we are more focused on competition.
Valid point...but I don't see how allowing these kids in the tournament will affect growth. If we are truly worried that these kids are so dominant that they will scare kids off (I don't belive that) then we should create an elite division and a starter division. We can have the starter division go in the morning and run 8 man brackets and place top 4 giving many younger and less experienced kids the chance to medal. In the afternoon, we can run the elite division and run 16 man brackets and allow everyone in, including middle school placers to offer a more competitive tournament for the more experienced kids.
Valid point...but I don't see how allowing these kids in the tournment will affect growth. If we are truly worried that these kids are so dominant that they will scare kids off (I don't belive that) then we should create an elite division and a starter division. We can have the starter division go in the morning and run 8 man brackets and place top 4 giving many younger and less experienced kids the chance to medal. In the afternoon, we can run the elite division and run 16 man brackets and allow everyone in, including middle school placers to offer a more competitive tournament for the more experienced kids.
Ha...raidercoach if you would ever go to a meeting, you would know this proposed and voted down.
Ha...raidercoach if you would ever go to a meeting, you would know this proposed and voted down.
As you know, no boys in my family so I spend my time at dance and music recitals and soccer games. Unfortunately, half the time when I'm there I'm on my phone looking at this site or Flowrestling.
If you really want to make a fair comparison, look at the percentage of kids participating who were actually youth aged in those weights compared to the weights in high school. I'm totally guessing, but I would expect the lightest 5 weights in middle school have a very high percentage of youth aged kids participating in middle school, at least much higher than the lightest 5 weights in high school. Just looking at Ranger's rankings, there are way more kids that are youth aged in those 5 lightest weight classes compared to the amount of middle school kids ranked in high school. How many middle school kids actually weigh 70lbs or less? I'm an average sized adult and was average sized in 8th grade and I weighed over 120lbs. Lets face it, those weight classes are filled with youth aged kids, hence you are going to have a high percentage of youth aged champions coming from those weights. All the more reason to let them wrestle at youth state!
That was my point to raidercoach. You can't compare middle school placers that are eligible for youth state and high schooler placers that are eligible for middle state. The middle schoolers don't have the same success at high school as youth do at middle school. It's like comparing apples to oranges.
That was my point to raidercoach. You can't compare middle school placers that are eligible for youth state and high schooler placers that are eligible for middle state. The middle schoolers don't have the same success at high school as youth do at middle school. It's like comparing apples to oranges.
Its not comparing apples to oranges when you eliminate those weights at middle school that are filled with youth aged kids. If you look at the weights in high school that actually have a higher percentage of middle school kids participating, they are obviously more successful. If you had an 85lb weight class in high school, don't you think you'd have many more successful middle school kids?
The Association has to decide is youth wrestlings main objective: GROWTH or competitiveness ?
I don't believe you can have both.
I personally think it is absurd that a wrestler of the correct age is not allowed to compete due to their placing at MS State! What's the next rule, they can't compete if they place at a national event?
That being said; Somehow, I was elected VP of the youth. I was lead to believe that growth at the youth level was priority. #1. If that is truly the case, I would keep all MS placers out of youth. Top 6. This would keep youth state a feel good tournament.
Before the haters jump all over me Rember this is not my personal belief but my position as VP. The association is clear GROWTH is our top priority!!
The Association has to decide is youth wrestlings main objective: GROWTH or competitiveness ?
I don't believe you can have both.
I personally think it is absurd that a wrestler of the correct age is not allowed to compete due to their placing at MS State! What's the next rule, they can't compete if they place at a national event?
That being said; Somehow, I was elected VP of the youth. I was lead to believe that growth at the youth level was priority. #1. If that is truly the case, I would keep all MS placers out of youth. Top 6. This would keep youth state a feel good tournament.
Before the haters jump all over me Rember this is not my personal belief but my position as VP. The association is clear GROWTH is our top priority!!
I don't understand this thinking at all. What evidence does anyone have that by allowing these kids to compete, we are somehow restricting our growth? If we are going to make a rule that takes opportunities AWAY from kids who earned it to compete, I would hope that decision would be based on common sense and/or evidence. How does having these kids in the tournament hurt growth? Can anyone give one example or piece of evidence that justifies that claim? Saying that we just want other kids to have opportunities to medal or possibly win the tournament that probably wouldn't had these kids wrestled does not have any correlation to growth.
I had a wrestler decide not to attend KY youth tournaments because of lack of competition. He's no longer in our club because they wanted more than what KY youth wrestling (and us) could offer. There were other factors, but you could probably make a better argument that weaker competiton hinders growth, not helps.
My suggestion: All coaches concerned show up to the spring meeting. Force a vote with all your concerns. Accept the vote or continue complaining and do nothing. Leave me off the next ballot!
The Association has to decide is youth wrestlings main objective: GROWTH or competitiveness ?
I don't believe you can have both.
I personally think it is absurd that a wrestler of the correct age is not allowed to compete due to their placing at MS State! What's the next rule, they can't compete if they place at a national event?
That being said; Somehow, I was elected VP of the youth. I was lead to believe that growth at the youth level was priority. #1. If that is truly the case, I would keep all MS placers out of youth. Top 6. This would keep youth state a feel good tournament.
Before the haters jump all over me Rember this is not my personal belief but my position as VP. The association is clear GROWTH is our top priority!!
If you want growth, offer up $500 and a trophy to the team at state that has the highest percentage of growth compared to year prior. Nothing motivates like the almighty dollar.
Youth winning Middle School State Championships isn't that common. How many 3 time State Champions are there? Last year was only the 3,4,and 5 time a 5th grader has won.
70 pound winners last 3 years
13 Zeke Escalera 5th geade
12 Zach Holub 8th grade
11 Tanner Yenter 8th grade.
USA National Duals start at 75
KY is about the only team that has any youth on there team. The ones that are winning the national duals don't have any.
I nominate raidercoach for the next VP.
Good luck to you sir. This doesn't work in reality like it does in your mind/heart! I accepted the position with positive aspirations for change as well .
This might be an odd year, but it looks like every placer from 70-80 #'s are youth wrestlers. 18 of 18 kids.
The biggest issue I see with trying to compare youth kids wrestling MS to MS kids wrestling HS is that there is a huge overlap in MS/youth eligibility. Most MS wrestlers are still youth eligible until 8th grade, so saying those brackets are full of youth kids is a mute point. Only the 7th graders with late birth days or held back kids are not youth eligible prior to 8th grade. Of course those brackets are full of youth kids.
Many states do have 70 and 75 pound MS weight classes. IN, OH, And IA are three huge wrestling states that do. There are many more but no need to list them all.
The biggest issue I see with trying to compare youth kids wrestling MS to MS kids wrestling HS is that there is a huge overlap in MS/youth eligibility. Most MS wrestlers are still youth eligible until 8th grade, so saying those brackets are full of youth kids is a mute point. Only the 7th graders with late birth days or held back kids are not youth eligible prior to 8th grade. Of course those brackets are full of youth kids.
Many states do have 70 and 75 pound MS weight classes. IN, OH, And IA are three huge wrestling states that do. There are many more but no need to list them all.
You are actually making my point. EVERY middle school kid is technially elgibile to wrestle in high school unless their high school doesn't allow it. Yet why aren't there as many middle school aged kids placing at high school state compared to youth aged kids placing at middle school state? It has nothing to do with elgibility...its the weight classes. Our lowest weights in middle school are not reflective of what middle school kids weigh, hence they are filled with youth aged kids. High school weights do a better job of reflecting what high school kids weigh, hence there are more high school aged kids placing at the high school state tournament. If high school had an 80lb and 90lb weight class, don't you think we'd have a lot more middle school kids placing and winning those weights?
MS starts at 6th grade where we live, so according to that, all the champions except for one are MS kids.
Actually, I believe all the champions were 6th grade or higher. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Not sure of grade, but birth years of youth in KY is 2002 and younger. Not 100%, but I bet the vast majority of our participants and placers from 70 to 80 were 12 or under.
OH starts at 74, not 70.
Not sure of grade, but birth years of youth in KY is 2002 and younger. Not 100%, but I bet the vast majority of our participants and placers from 70 to 80 were 12 or under.
OH starts at 74, not 70.
Right on the 74, but the post I was referring to said we may be the only state with 70 or 75. I would venture to say almost every state has 75 and many have 70.
I really don't care if MS placers can wrestle youth state. My point is just that most actual MS kids are still youth eligible until 8th grade. There is an overlap between the two. For example, 2002 is schoolboy which is officially MS on the national level.
How many 12th graders are 106 probably about the same 8th graders at 70lbs. Look who is favorites at 106 freshmen.
Correct me if I am wrong but does the rule for youth state read must not turn 13 by January 1st?? If that is the case then my son who has a late January birthday would be 13 and still be eligible for youth state. That just blows my mind.
Raider Coach----if your youth wrestler placed in the top 4 at middle school state and wishes he hadn't so that he could've wrestled in the youth tournament then I see a problem with that. Maybe too much of a focus on winning and not really seeing the big picture. I hope that you, as his coach, helped him see the folly in that.
How many 12th graders are 106 probably about the same 8th graders at 70lbs. Look who is favorites at 106 freshmen.
Of the 29 kids in Ranger's rankings at 106, only 5 are in middle school. Obviously, there is a much higher percentage of youth aged kids wrestling at the lowest weights at middle school.
I don't believe I've ever had an 8th grader eligible for youth state. That cannot be common.
I don't believe I've ever had an 8th grader eligible for youth state. That cannot be common.
But, the majority of 7th graders are hence the overlap.
Marriedtothemat---blows my mind too. 2002 is schoolboy at USA national wrestling tournaments this year. Our years were off. It should have started with 03-04.
Marriedtothemat---blows my mind too. 2002 is schoolboy at USA national wrestling tournaments this year. Our years were off. It should have started with 03-04.
That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. There is way too much overlap between youth and MS. Youth should be for elementary kids.
MLee--- you comment about why not let them enjoy the spot light. That's exactly what 15 other parents in your sons youth bracket are saying. Hey your son placed 4th at middle school state. Of course he's going to win this bracket. Why not let some other kids get a chance to enjoy the spot light.
Raider Coach----if your youth wrestler placed in the top 4 at middle school state and wishes he hadn't so that he could've wrestled in the youth tournament then I see a problem with that. Maybe too much of a focus on winning and not really seeing the big picture. I hope that you, as his coach, helped him see the folly in that.
I think you are missing the point....its not what I want for any of these kids, or what you want, or what anyone in the association wants, its what the kids want! Has anyone actually asked these kids if they would have liked to wrestle in the youth tournament? I have, and all of the ones I asked wished they could wrestle in that tournament. Does that mean they would trade their middle school placing to wrestle in the youth state? Absolulely not. Obviously it is a greater achievement to place in middle school as a youth than it is to win or place at the youth tournament. It has nothing to do with winning or losing to me. I just don't like taking the opportunity for a kid to compete, under any circumstances, when he/she has earned it.
Raider coach---as for your 29 kids in rangers rankings comment. That's awesome. These are the type of things that happen when a state begins to grow. KY wrestling is no longer a sport where these older kids can take off during the offseason and come season win because they're older and stronger. Our younger kids are working all year and setting the pace. Give it a few years and like other highly competitive wrestling states the youth wrestlers won't be competing in middle school.
But, the majority of 7th graders are hence the overlap.
The overlap doesn't matter.....every middle school aged kid is elgible to wrestle in high school. Yet only a small percentage of them are successful. That has everything to do with the weight classes and nothing else.
The overlap doesn't matter.....every middle school aged kid is elgible to wrestle in high school. Yet only a small percentage of them are successful. That has everything to do with the weight classes and nothing else.
Yes but high school freshman are not eligible to wrestle in middle school competitions even if they are of age!!!!! Why? Because they are not in middle school. 7th & 8th graders are not in elementary school and therefore should not be allowed to wrestle in youth tournaments.
The overlap doesn't matter.....every middle school aged kid is elgible to wrestle in high school. Yet only a small percentage of them are successful. That has everything to do with the weight classes and nothing else.
6th graders are not. My son is a Middle schooler and only weighed 66 pounds at MS state after eating breakfast and drinking an entire bottle of water. There are MS kids who weigh 70. You will see more of them as wrestling grows in KY. There are plenty of MS 70 pounders in Indiana and Iowa.
It's great that KY wrestling is experiencing growing pains. And, I did ask my son about youth state last year and this year. He had no desire to compete in it. We were in Iowa this year and went to Indy Nationals last year. He understands that those events will help him reach his goals.
Raider Coach----my point exactly. At least from an earlier post. That's where we as adults/coaches help them understand and keep things in perspective. Of course the kid wants and why not. Heck, take him to the AAU Spring Nationals if feel good is what you're after. Otherwise, bring him to KY team trials and let him beat the youth state champs at his weight and let him see why he didn't need to wrestle youth state.
Yeah, right sbfraz. How big was that bottle? 
.
Please don't assume my opinions are based around the thoughts of my son. He didn't want to wrestle in the youth tournament. I voted against it before he even wrestled a MS match years ago. I explained why I don't like the rule. I believe my points are valid. If you don't agree, no biggie. Obviously you are in majority because it got voted that way. As mentioned not a shred of evidence to support how it improves #'s, which is one of the reasons people voted for it. If I recall, 1 kid who was the MVW of MS State showed up at the Youth tournament and everyone freaked. I've had MS placers decide not to wrestle before the rule was implemented. I've also had a kid that wanted to wrestle in it because he had a goal to win 6 or 7 youth titles, but couldn't. It didn't sit right with me that a bunch of adults w/ agendas prohibited him from achieving his goal, as silly as that goal may seem to some.
In the end, there are more important issues that needs to be addressed in our state. It's a dead issue to me.
Yes but high school freshman are not eligible to wrestle in middle school competitions even if they are of age!!!!! Why? Because they are not in middle school. 7th & 8th graders are not in elementary school and therefore should not be allowed to wrestle in youth tournaments.
Youth is done by age...not grade. High school and middle school are done by grade. There is a high percentage of kids that are youth aged that successfully compete in middle school, particularly at the lightest weight classes. Why is this? People on here are claiming that you can't compare youth to middle based on the fact that there aren't as many successful middle school kids competing in high school as there are youth aged kids competing in middle school. My point is that the difference in success has everything to do with the weight classes and nothing else. It goes back to my original point about not allowing youth kids that place at middle school to compete at youth state. With such a high percentatge of youth aged kids successfully competing at middle school state at these lower weights, why punish those kids by not allowing them to compete at youth. It makes no sense. You have 3 weight classes that are practically filled with youth aged wrestlers competing at middle school. These are some of our best youth wrestlers. Yet because of some silly rule that shouldn't be applicable to those weights, none of these placers can compete.
My apologies MLee. Please forgive me for assuming. What at arse am I. . Darn my dad taught me better than that.
Geez, You guys are too serious about who should wrestle, and who should not. I thought that we all were in the position to get any and every kid on the mat. What is a youth state champ any way??? My son has won elementary school state 6 times, since kindergarten, he is in the 5th grade now. If he is good enough he will wrestle middle school again next year. This year he wrestled 8th graders that were either state champs or ranked in the top 5 in the state at his weight class. It is about what he learned while wrestling these kids, not his wins or loses. It is what it is, either train hard on the off season or take your lumps. We took our lumps and we are better for it. Don't bitch about my kid wrestled a 7th grader at the youth state, because your kid will be a 7th grader sooner or later and he will be doing the same.
My son must be in the minority. The first thing he said when he came off the may after he won his match to get into the 3rd 4th place match was "I don't have to wrestle youth now". I'd say a lot of it was because he was tickled that he was assured of placing top 4 in middle school as a 5th grader. But he really didn't want to wrestle youth state any longer. He won state 4 years in a row and he knows he has nothing else to accomplish in youth in Ky. The only youth match he has lost in Ky was to M.Lees boy when he was 5 I believe years old. I think youth should be for the kids that are youth level wrestlers. If a youth kid places top 4 in middle school they shouldn't be wrestling in youth state regardless of age just my opinion. Sure I would've loved for Blue to have won his 5th straight youth state championship. But he knows placing top 4 in MS in a greater accomplishment then winning a youth championship.
I know I had one dad (hiskid is youth age also) on my MS team ask what I was going to do if Blue was in a situation were he could wrestle in a match to get to the 3-4 place match. I said he will wrestle it and I hope he wins. He went nuts saying he wouldn't he eligible for youth state. I said why would I even consider letting him not wrestle in that match. If he can place top 4 in MS that is a better accomplishment then youth state. He disagreed with me and said if my son is in that situation I wouldn't let him wrestle so he could wrestle youth. So some people are nuts and think a youth championship is greater than placing top 4 MS. Crazy.
How many 4th graders are ranked.Of the 29 kids in Ranger's rankings at 106, only 5 are in middle school. Obviously, there is a much higher percentage of youth aged kids wrestling at the lowest weights at middle school.
Guys - you do understand that if you took the 70-86 weight classes at middle school, the majority are youth aged? These are essentially weight classes filled with YOUTH wrestlers. We would have seen many rematches at youth state that we saw at middle. We aren't talking about some Livingston Merrit type who is a 130lb youth kid placing at middle school state. Basically, all we have done with this rule is cut off our best, most experienced, and most competitive weight classes from the youth state tournament for no reason. I am baffled that so many act as if we are doing something good with this. We have accomplished nothing but removed our best youth kids from the state tournament. We aren't protecting anyone, helping growth, or whatever else you have convinced yourselves this accomplished. If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy because you feel good about giving some other kids some medals, then fine. But please don't act as if this has had or will have any positive affect on our state's growth.
You're right Duke...we've beaten the dead horse relentlessly on this today. I now must force myself away from the vortex. Good night fellas.
Raiders Coach-- evidently it has had a positive impact on our youth wrestlers. As you stated, so many of them are beating the older kids. The older kids see that cutting down for state is no longer an advantage. The younger kids are working harder year round and have caught up. Let's hope that we, as a state, can continue this trend. Before you know it, our middle school will be so competitive that we won't have this conversation because youth will have to wrestle youth.
This is entertaining to read. My feeling has always been the same. I believe you leave it up to the kid and his parents if he wants to wrestle youth state.
We can spin it anyway people want to, but here's the reality of restricting a kid based on his performance.
Think about the kid that placed at middle school. He probably worked his tail off to make that happen. Now a week later the kid has an opportunity to wrestle kids the same age and weight. It doesn't get anymore fair than that. Considering chances are the same kid just wrestled older kids at middle school state.
So now that kid has an opportunity to have a level playing field and we are going to tell him "sorry kid your to good".
I say reward hard work and leave the choice up to them. Chances are if a kid is that good they are trying to get as much mat time as possible. So the parent that takes that kid all over the place to wrestle is excluded. I think it's crazy. I say those kids should be rewarded and not discriminated against for the fruits of their labor.
I also believe that if a middle school wrestler can win a spot in the line up on his high school team. He should be able to compete.
I read all the time about trying to catch ky up to other states. It will never happen if we want to shelter kids from competition. It all works in cycles. Older kids move on and now that younger kid has his opportunity to shine.
This is entertaining to read. My feeling has always been the same. I believe you leave it up to the kid and his parents if he wants to wrestle youth state.
We can spin it anyway people want to, but here's the reality of restricting a kid based on his performance.
Think about the kid that placed at middle school. He probably worked his tail off to make that happen. Now a week later the kid has an opportunity to wrestle kids the same age and weight. It doesn't get anymore fair than that. Considering chances are the same kid just wrestled older kids at middle school state.
So now that kid has an opportunity to have a level playing field and we are going to tell him "sorry kid your to good".
I say reward hard work and leave the choice up to them. Chances are if a kid is that good they are trying to get as much mat time as possible. So the parent that takes that kid all over the place to wrestle is excluded. I think it's crazy. I say those kids should be rewarded and not discriminated against for the fruits of their labor.
I also believe that if a middle school wrestler can win a spot in the line up on his high school team. He should be able to compete.
I read all the time about trying to catch ky up to other states. It will never happen if we want to shelter kids from competition. It all works in cycles. Older kids move on and now that younger kid has his opportunity to shine.
what he said
This is entertaining to read. My feeling has always been the same. I believe you leave it up to the kid and his parents if he wants to wrestle youth state.
We can spin it anyway people want to, but here's the reality of restricting a kid based on his performance.
Think about the kid that placed at middle school. He probably worked his tail off to make that happen. Now a week later the kid has an opportunity to wrestle kids the same age and weight. It doesn't get anymore fair than that. Considering chances are the same kid just wrestled older kids at middle school state.
So now that kid has an opportunity to have a level playing field and we are going to tell him "sorry kid your to good".
I say reward hard work and leave the choice up to them. Chances are if a kid is that good they are trying to get as much mat time as possible. So the parent that takes that kid all over the place to wrestle is excluded. I think it's crazy. I say those kids should be rewarded and not discriminated against for the fruits of their labor.
I also believe that if a middle school wrestler can win a spot in the line up on his high school team. He should be able to compete.
I read all the time about trying to catch ky up to other states. It will never happen if we want to shelter kids from competition. It all works in cycles. Older kids move on and now that younger kid has his opportunity to shine.
I agree with Dutch and RaiderCoach. I also voted against the change. I felt it was up to the kids and parents. Plain and simple. If you didn't want your kid to wrestle, that's your choice. Keep in mind , their still kids. I seen a few 5th graders that wrestled great at MS state and placed too 4. The same kids that beat them thru the year but didn't wrestle as good that day were wrestling at Youth State. The 70lb weight class was full of crazy good kids. Top 10 on Rangers list shuffled all around. 8 beat 3, 4 beat 1, 9 beat 3.(just an example Their all great and can beat each other on any given day. We are blessed to have such good kids! IMO of course
Dutch---you make a lot of good points but I would have to disagree with the mat time statement. As much as mat time matters I believe quality mat time is much more important than mat time itself. Also, if the kids parent(s) take them all over the place I am sure they would have found Indy or Liberty Nationals as better mat time that same weekend then KY youth state.
Dutch---you make a lot of good points but I would have to disagree with the mat time statement. As much as mat time matters I believe quality mat time is much more important than mat time itself. Also, if the kids parent(s) take them all over the place I am sure they would have found Indy or Liberty Nationals as better mat time that same weekend then KY youth state.
So you would recommend our best youth wrestlers to compete at an out-of-state tournament versus competing at youth state? That would be like encouraging Austin Myers to just skip high school state to get some better mat time. Our state championship should be the ONE tournament during the season that all of our best wrestlers should be exicted to compete at for the competition and to represent their state. I don't see how it could possibly benefit Kentucky wrestling to have our best skip that tournament to go Missouri. There are plenty of great tournaments they can attend practically every other weekend of the year to get good mat time.
But is that what we want? Do we want our top kids to shun our youth state tournament? I don't see how this helps our #'s.
I can't believe what I am seeing on here! I've never heard such whining before in my life! Shouldn't our sole purpose be to grow our state wrestling program? The youth tournament is such an experience for our younger wrestlers. It gives them a taste of what a large tournament feels like and, if lucky, what it feels like to stand on the podium. For some youth, that tournament gives them the confidence they need and makes them strive harder to improve their skills. Is a youth tournament title going to get them a college scholarship? No. What it will do is give them that boost to work harder and to become a great wrestler in the future. Shouldn't that be the sole purpose? The more we encourage our youth, the better our state program will be in the years to come.
Just for reference there are 21 school districts in Kentucky that Middle School is 5th through 8th grade. (just looked it up)
How many of those districts have youth wrestling I have no idea.
Just for reference there are 21 school districts in Kentucky that Middle School is 5th through 8th grade. (just looked it up)
How many of those districts have youth wrestling I have no idea.
Exactly, so saying the MS brackets are full of youth wrestlers is a mute point. Of course they are, but many of those same youth wrestlers are also middle school kids. You would have to go through the brackets and find a 13 year old before you found a champion who is not a youth wrestler. After looking at the brackets, it seems like the first bracket with a champion who is not youth eligible is 98. 105 is technically a youth wrestler, so according to the logic being given, MS weight classes shouldn't begin before 100 pounds because otherwise the brackets are full of "youth" wrestlers. 6 of the 15 brackets have champions who are youth eligible but all of them are actually middle school kids.
The brackets are full of youth wrestlers because well over 50% of actual middle school kids would still be youth eligible with the current birth years in place. That is the reason you can't conpare youth in MS with MS wrestlers competing at HS. There is no situation where a HS freshman can still be eligible to compete in MS, but more than half of our middle school students in the state of KY are technically eligible to compete in our youth state tournament based on age. Apples and oranges.
It is not a moot point....you are actually making the case for these youth wrestlers to be able to wrestle at youth state if they place at middle school. The fact that so many of the kids from those weights are youth aged demonstrates how ridiculous it is to keep them from wrestling at the youth state.Exactly, so saying the MS brackets are full of youth wrestlers is a mute point. Of course they are, but many of those same youth wrestlers are also middle school kids. You would have to go through the brackets and find a 13 year old before you found a champion who is not a youth wrestler. After looking at the brackets, it seems like the first bracket with a champion who is not youth eligible is 98. 105 is technically a youth wrestler, so according to the logic being given, MS weight classes shouldn't begin before 100 pounds because otherwise the brackets are full of "youth" wrestlers. 6 of the 15 brackets have champions who are youth eligible but all of them are actually middle school kids.
The brackets are full of youth wrestlers because well over 50% of actual middle school kids would still be youth eligible with the current birth years in place. That is the reason you can't conpare youth in MS with MS wrestlers competing at HS. There is no situation where a HS freshman can still be eligible to compete in MS, but more than half of our middle school students in the state of KY are technically eligible to compete in our youth state tournament based on age. Apples and oranges.
Let's call it what it is, this rule was implemented to keep our elite youth kids from going to youth state and pounding other youth kids. The reality is, all of these weight classes at middle school are filled with youth kids, so all you are doing is arbitrarily cutting off the top 4 and saying you are "too good" and allowing the other kids who placed lower a chance at a gold. If we are so concerned about these top 4 from pounding other youth kids at the youth state, where is the uproar at middle school? Because in many cases at these weight classes, we are talking about the exact same kids pounding on the exact same other kids. With this logic, it would make way more sense to have a rule that if you place at high school state as a middle school kid, you shouldn't be able to wrestle at middle school state because 106 in high school is filled with mostly high school kids.
It seems to me that some are trying with this rule to make the middle school tournament more prestigious and more competitive while keeping the youth tournament just a walk in the park. In the long run, that will hurt the youth state tournament. If our best kids can't get any competition or are not permitted to wrestle at the youth state, then we are systematically removing any prestige the kids have for that tournament. Right now, it's a badge of honor for these kids to skip the youth state because they placed at middle school. We have convinced them that the youth state is beneath them. That was NEVER the case before we implemented this rule. All of our stud youth wrestlers showed up to the youth state regardless if they placed at middle school or not. All we have done is hurt the reputation of this tournament with the kids.
Raidercoach, I'm not arguing about whether they should be allowed to participate. I honestly don't think it's a big deal either way. My point is that the argument against the decision cannot be founded in comparing this situation with MS kids wrestling HS. That point is completely invalid for the very reason I stated.
Honestly, if we want youth state to be appealing to the elite level kids, then we need to use USA divisions and weight classes like the rest of the country, but again, dead horse!
I can't believe what I am seeing on here! I've never heard such whining before in my life! Shouldn't our sole purpose be to grow our state wrestling program? The youth tournament is such an experience for our younger wrestlers. It gives them a taste of what a large tournament feels like and, if lucky, what it feels like to stand on the podium. For some youth, that tournament gives them the confidence they need and makes them strive harder to improve their skills. Is a youth tournament title going to get them a college scholarship? No. What it will do is give them that boost to work harder and to become a great wrestler in the future. Shouldn't that be the sole purpose? The more we encourage our youth, the better our state program will be in the years to come.
I hardly think a good debate among people who put countless hours into making our state better should be considered "whining."
Dividing brackets up by GRADE for youth has always seemed silly to me. What does grade have to do w/ physical development? Nothing. BIRTH YEAR does. What if a kid was 14 years old and in the 5th grade? Should he be allowed to wrestle in our youth tournament? Of course not.
This is why the youth tournaments are sorted the way they are. It is much more fair...smaller age and weight diiference. Sbfraz, you seem to be making our point. If the smaller weight classes are close to 100% youth aged kids, then why exclude them from a youth tournament?? Because someome thinks that placing in the top 4 in our MS tournament has miraculously made these kids superior to the youth kids. Broken record....shouldn't this decision be left with the individuals it impacts, their parents and coaches? I guess the few coaches that showed up and voted are better suited to make those decisions.
I have a great youth kid that took 2nd to a wrestler who was ranked top 3 all year in MS. The MS kid didn't place top 4. We lost a close 2-0 match. BIG DEAL! It was a great experience. He got to stand on the podium and think about what he needs to do to get better. In addition, I received an email from a parent of a kid who won 1 match all year! He was hoping he would win one down state, but failed to do so. She thanked me for our coach's efforts and pledged to send him to more off-season events to get him better next year. They didn't get scared off.
We handed out medals to almost 50% of the wrestlers that showed up. Since we don't have qualifiers, that is almost 50% of the entire state! Isn't that enough? If not, lets hand out more, but don't water down the competition out of fear some kid and their parents will quit. They won't, but if they do, are these the type of families we need in our sport? Let them play basketball and earn as many participation ribbons they want from their local YMCA.
The other point worth noting...this the end of the year tournament. My newbies have been through a few "beginner tournaments" before they wrestled in more challenging tournaments. The parents and kids were forewarned. We told them not to expect great results. Some decide in the first few weeks, wrestling is not for them. I believe we started with 85 kids and ended w/ under 50. By the end of the season, these kids and their families understand the sport. We won't run them away if little Johnny doesn't make the podium.
Raidercoach, I'm not arguing about whether they should be allowed to participate. I honestly don't think it's a big deal either way. My point is that the argument against the decision cannot be founded in comparing this situation with MS kids wrestling HS. That point is completely invalid for the very reason I stated.
Honestly, if we want youth state to be appealing to the elite level kids, then we need to use USA divisions and weight classes like the rest of the country, but again, dead horse!
We'll have to agree to disagree on that. I agree with you 100% that we have more "youth" kids wrestling at those weights in MS than we have MS kids wrestling HS...that's obvious. I just look at that differently. To me, that just supports the case against the rule to prevent these kids from wrestling.
At the end of the day, I just don't like under any circumstances creating rules that take away opportunities away from our kids to compete. That's what it all boils down to. Give the kids the choice and I bet you most will choose to wrestle versus sitting at home or watching from the stands.
Raidercoach, I'm not arguing about whether they should be allowed to participate. I honestly don't think it's a big deal either way. My point is that the argument against the decision cannot be founded in comparing this situation with MS kids wrestling HS. That point is completely invalid for the very reason I stated.
Honestly, if we want youth state to be appealing to the elite level kids, then we need to use USA divisions and weight classes like the rest of the country, but again, dead horse!
My original proposal was to have novice and experienced brackets. Novice in the morning, 8 man brackets, remote weigh-ins, same as it was in years past. 2nd session, adopt set weight classes (USA would work), weigh in morning of, pre-register on Track, 16+ man brackets. I still like this the best, but this year's tournament was a lot of fun.
Regardless of what we do, I personally appreciate others opinions and input. We can get heated on these message boards, but it usually between all the people that are passionate about the sport. Our youth and MS kids are looking great!
One last post. I couldn't resist!!
I wrestled in states where quality was more important than quantity. If you guys want to make our state tournament legit then let's use the regionals a qualifier and all age appropriate kids can compete. Yes a smaller state tournament that could be held at lets say Grant County High School. The Come one Come all mentality is fine if our state tourney is about Money and exposure but if you want it to be a true State Tournament then show up to vote in the spring and let's make the proper changes. I'm all in !!!
Here is how this rule of not letting middle school placers came about. Back when Stan Martin was the president (That's a long time ago) the main goal of the association was to grow youth wrestling. As the years past it did grow we moved from holding the youth state meet in a high school gym to the arena in Frankort and now at Montgomery county. For years people complained about not having 16 man brackets but the numbers didn't make sense and the sport was continuing to grow so why change what was working. As ideas were presented at the state association meetings on how to continue the growth of the sport I brought up the idea of if a youth wrestler places at the middle school state they would not be eligible to wrestle at the youth state. It was voted on and passed.
Last year after looking at who placed in the top six at middle school and who didn't that were youth eligible it was changed to the top four placers. Now agree or disagree I can say this was done to help grow the sport. At the time the idea was proposed my son had placed at the middle school state prior to the meeting that this idea was brought up and voted on and he was youth eligible it kept him from competing for the next two years at the youth level so they was no personal agenda.
Now Raider Coach has a valid point he and I have talked about it more than once. Over the last two years the numbers haven't changed that much maybe even down a little that was one of the reasons that the 16 man brackets were implemented to see if that would help in growth by making it more competitive more significant if you place, however you want to look at it. The numbers may have not changed much in the past two years but the level of competition has the skill level of youth wrestling has grown with the exposure the kids have gotten through Team KY and wrestling in the off season ect. So now maybe that idea needs to be looked at again with sixteen man brackets and better competition maybe a change is needed.
As it has been said on this forum more than once if you don't come to the meetings to share your ideas on how to better the sport what do you expect. The past administration has done a done a great job of listening and implementing ideas brought up at the meetings and I'm sure that will continue with the new leaders.
Coach Wheeler
Yes but high school freshman are not eligible to wrestle in middle school competitions even if they are of age!!!!! Why? Because they are not in middle school. 7th & 8th graders are not in elementary school and therefore should not be allowed to wrestle in youth tournaments.
This is youth wrestling not elementary wrestling. A 12 year old 7th grader has NO advantage over a 12 year old 6th grader. So, until it is changed to elementary wrestling instead of youth wrestling you have no point.
One last post. I couldn't resist!!
I wrestled in states where quality was more important than quantity. If you guys want to make our state tournament legit then let's use the regionals a qualifier and all age appropriate kids can compete. Yes a smaller state tournament that could be held at lets say Grant County High School. The Come one Come all mentality is fine if our state tourney is about Money and exposure but if you want it to be a true State Tournament then show up to vote in the spring and let's make the proper changes. I'm all in !!!
You wrestled before??
This is certainly where we're headed, but the # 's have to make sense. We need some of the regions to find ways to grow if we use regional qualifiers.
I like the Tournament of Champions quailifier format. Have a few tournaments scattered around the state. They need them to be sanctioned and ran the same way. If the kids place top 4 in one of those tournaments, you're eligible to participate in the state. It would also encourage more "in-state" wrestling.
I hardly think a good debate among people who put countless hours into making our state better should be considered "whining."
Dividing brackets up by GRADE for youth has always seemed silly to me. What does grade have to do w/ physical development? Nothing. BIRTH YEAR does. What if a kid was 14 years old and in the 5th grade? Should he be allowed to wrestle in our youth tournament? Of course not.
This is why the youth tournaments are sorted the way they are. It is much more fair...smaller age and weight diiference. Sbfraz, you seem to be making our point. If the smaller weight classes are close to 100% youth aged kids, then why exclude them from a youth tournament?? Because someome thinks that placing in the top 4 in our MS tournament has miraculously made these kids superior to the youth kids. Broken record....shouldn't this decision be left with the individuals it impacts, their parents and coaches? I guess the few coaches that showed up and voted are better suited to make those decisions.
I have a great youth kid that took 2nd to a wrestler who was ranked top 3 all year in MS. The MS kid didn't place top 4. We lost a close 2-0 match. BIG DEAL! It was a great experience. He got to stand on the podium and think about what he needs to do to get better. In addition, I received an email from a parent of a kid who won 1 match all year! He was hoping he would win one down state, but failed to do so. She thanked me for our coach's efforts and pledged to send him to more off-season events to get him better next year. They didn't get scared off.
We handed out medals to almost 50% of the wrestlers that showed up. Since we don't have qualifiers, that is almost 50% of the entire state! Isn't that enough? If not, lets hand out more, but don't water down the competition out of fear some kid and their parents will quit. They won't, but if they do, are these the type of families we need in our sport? Let them play basketball and earn as many participation ribbons they want from their local YMCA.
The other point worth noting...this the end of the year tournament. My newbies have been through a few "beginner tournaments" before they wrestled in more challenging tournaments. The parents and kids were forewarned. We told them not to expect great results. Some decide in the first few weeks, wrestling is not for them. I believe we started with 85 kids and ended w/ under 50. By the end of the season, these kids and their families understand the sport. We won't run them away if little Johnny doesn't make the podium.
Some concerns are valid points, others not as much. The tournament is called a YOUTH tournament. To me, this means that it is a tournament for our new youth to show what they have. I was pleased to find out that the brackets went from 8-man to 16-man this year. This meant a bigger challenge to our youngest members. I also want to commend those that worked hard this year to do placement for the older kids brackets. I know they have put a lot of time and effort into this event. Hence, where my whining comment comes into play. A lot of people worked hard to make this tournament stronger this year. I feel as if the first comment anyone should say is "Thank you" to all those who gave up countless hours to make the tourney run so smoothly! I have read everyone's comments. Most of them are valid, but you should first thank all involved before you hack it to pieces. I, just like the rest of you, want Kentucky wrestling to grow all children into great wrestlers, not just the ones you feel are top dogs.
You wrestled before??
This is certainly where we're headed, but the # 's have to make sense. We need some of the regions to find ways to grow if we use regional qualifiers.
I like the Tournament of Champions quailifier format. Have a few tournaments scattered around the state. They need them to be sanctioned and ran the same way. If the kids place top 4 in one of those tournaments, you're eligible to participate in the state. It would also encourage more "in-state" wrestling.
I think we continue to focus on getting more kids involved in the sport. Not only on a state level but a local level. IMO, qualifiers for a youth state tournament is a turn in the wrong direction. I think the state tournament is a great experience for a young wrestler. And a experience they should all have.
I think we continue to focus on getting more kids involved in the sport. Not only on a state level but a local level. IMO, qualifiers for a youth state tournament is a turn in the wrong direction. I think the state tournament is a great experience for a young wrestler. And a experience they should all have.
I agree 100%. If and when we're ready to have qualifiers (I'd say around 1500 kids), I would prefer the TOC format over regionals. Kind of hard to have regionals at youth when some regions have 20 kids and others have 350.
Plus, I would think we would have to go to weight classes instead if the 10% rule.the way things are right now you can wrestle at region and be in a different bracket at state. Or not wrestle at region and wrestle at state. Seen both scenarios this weekend.
Here is how this rule of not letting middle school placers came about. Back when Stan Martin was the president (That's a long time ago) the main goal of the association was to grow youth wrestling. As the years past it did grow we moved from holding the youth state meet in a high school gym to the arena in Frankort and now at Montgomery county. For years people complained about not having 16 man brackets but the numbers didn't make sense and the sport was continuing to grow so why change what was working. As ideas were presented at the state association meetings on how to continue the growth of the sport I brought up the idea of if a youth wrestler places at the middle school state they would not be eligible to wrestle at the youth state. It was voted on and passed.
Last year after looking at who placed in the top six at middle school and who didn't that were youth eligible it was changed to the top four placers. Now agree or disagree I can say this was done to help grow the sport. At the time the idea was proposed my son had placed at the middle school state prior to the meeting that this idea was brought up and voted on and he was youth eligible it kept him from competing for the next two years at the youth level so they was no personal agenda.
Now Raider Coach has a valid point he and I have talked about it more than once. Over the last two years the numbers haven't changed that much maybe even down a little that was one of the reasons that the 16 man brackets were implemented to see if that would help in growth by making it more competitive more significant if you place, however you want to look at it. The numbers may have not changed much in the past two years but the level of competition has the skill level of youth wrestling has grown with the exposure the kids have gotten through Team KY and wrestling in the off season ect. So now maybe that idea needs to be looked at again with sixteen man brackets and better competition maybe a change is needed.
As it has been said on this forum more than once if you don't come to the meetings to share your ideas on how to better the sport what do you expect. The past administration has done a done a great job of listening and implementing ideas brought up at the meetings and I'm sure that will continue with the new leaders.
Coach Wheeler
You are really showing your age now....
More medals works better w/ retaining kids, not growing the #'s. By tournament time, the #'s are already established. How does giving out more medals increase #'s? It doesn't. It helps retain the kids we have, but we are having a growth issue more than a retainment issue.
Growth comes from coaches that are committed. How did Grant County get to 2nd overall and 1st in DII in 3 years? From Coach Messerly and his staff. They've worked their butts off and built a great program. The question becomes..."how do we get more guys like that?"
This all started with the pounders ppw metric. I will give you the Division 2 Championship Trophy.
You can pick it up in Grant County. We practice Monday, Tuesday and Thursday. 6-8. See you soon !!
Disagree, I believe medals, especially at state, do help growth. We (Martin County) have started to have some success at the state tournament. We won divison 3 last year and we seen a big influx in our numbers, especially for a county this size. Now we did not just set back and it happened. We publicized our success, we printed T shirts, we held camps but nothing can recruit like success. When little Jimmy sees little Johnny doing good little Jimmy might decide to give it a shot. Imagine your 8 years old and your buddy is in the newspaper for winning the state wrestling championship. He's got a big trophy, his coaches have their arm around him, he's got a big smile on his face. THAT makes kids want to try things. So yeah, I believe medals do help with your growth.
This all started with the pounders ppw metric. I will give you the Division 2 Championship Trophy.
You can pick it up in Grant County. We practice Monday, Tuesday and Thursday. 6-8. See you soon !!
You guys did a great job!!
Medals are a selling point, but someone needs to do the selling! Think about it, by the time the medals have been handed out, our #'s have been established. Maybe there is a small % of kids that start wrestling the following year because they've seen a medal somewhere. But every time we've seen a surge in #'s, there was a committed coach behind the scenes recruiting at football fields, schools, etc.
Medals are a selling point, but someone needs to do the selling! Think about it, by the time the medals have been handed out, our #'s have been established. Maybe there is a small % of kids that start wrestling the following year because they've seen a medal somewhere. But every time we've seen a surge in #'s, there was a committed coach behind the scenes recruiting at football fields, schools, etc.
Your absolutely right with eight man brackets more medals were given out and the numbers stayed the same. So now 16 man brackets see what happens but the point about committed coaches and parents is where it is going to come from. That's why I push the point of coming to the meetings sharing ideas make changes.
To give a number example to help address qualifiers three years ago we had approx a 950 -1000 wrestlers in the state the CInn area had 2,500 in the surrounding area. The number mentioned by Matt of 1,500 is what we figured out several years ago based upon what areas kids were coming from that would make sense with going to qualifiers.
enjoy that trophy y'all did a very good job. Also had a high percentage of placers. You earned that trophy.This all started with the pounders ppw metric. I will give you the Division 2 Championship Trophy.
You can pick it up in Grant County. We practice Monday, Tuesday and Thursday. 6-8. See you soon !!
Wow! The Cincy area has 2500 youth wrestlers?
IMO that number is too low, I assume that is the entry number to the citywide tournament they have every year.
Why these hot topics are fresh in people's heads. When and Where is the spring meeting?
Let's do a roll call. If you are not present then you are not allowed on the MB!!
LOL
Some concerns are valid points, others not as much. The tournament is called a YOUTH tournament. To me, this means that it is a tournament for our new youth to show what they have. I was pleased to find out that the brackets went from 8-man to 16-man this year. This meant a bigger challenge to our youngest members. I also want to commend those that worked hard this year to do placement for the older kids brackets. I know they have put a lot of time and effort into this event. Hence, where my whining comment comes into play. A lot of people worked hard to make this tournament stronger this year. I feel as if the first comment anyone should say is "Thank you" to all those who gave up countless hours to make the tourney run so smoothly! I have read everyone's comments. Most of them are valid, but you should first thank all involved before you hack it to pieces. I, just like the rest of you, want Kentucky wrestling to grow all children into great wrestlers, not just the ones you feel are top dogs. [/quote
IRONICALLY, the person that put the most time into the State Bracket is none other than(insert drumroll) MLEE!!!!! That's right, I know this for a fact because I work side by side with him 7 years now. He and I along with 3 of the other "whiners" on here(insert sarcastic here) are the one lbs that implemented 16 man brackets, ran the youth state, and facilitate this tournament. This Topic we are discussing comes up every year along with other topics. All the folks "whining"(sarcastic again) are the same people that put the most into the youth as of today. SBfraz, Braves, JBrown and Rescalara , Ranger,MLee and I'm forgetting a fee on here, are all coaches of programs. RaiderCoach is a coaching celebrity that has daughters so he's not aloud to coach(only dance recitals)lol EAST aka Coach Wheeler(who poked that bear and woke him up) is also a coach heavily involved with youth and MS, Dutch is a Coach and Rangers "Hitman"!
So you see there is no whining, it's a bunch of great parents that love their kids and this great Sport!!
Why these hot topics are fresh in people's heads. When and Where is the spring meeting?
Let's do a roll call. If you are not present then you are not allowed on the MB!!
LOL
Anderson County, May 17th
We need to make sure they can host an open mat for kids across the state. I would like to see 2 sessions.
Well after a couple of days of this, I must admit that I've heard a lot of good arguments on both sides. It got me thinking about the way a few organizations that run national tournaments and how they provide a tournament that all levels of wrestlers can enter and enjoy. Rocky Mountain Nationals Events (Rocky Mountain National, Show Me Nationals) and American Crown Wrestling (Dixie Nationals, Liberty Nationals) have 2 different divisions, a Rookie division and an Open division. The Rookie division is for wrestlers with no more than 2 years of wrestling while the Open division is the more competitive one. Can we look into something like this with our Youth State? The Rookie division would allow us to continue to grow and encourage kids to wrestle and allow them to share in the State tourney spotlight and the Open division is one where all youth age kids can wrestle no matter their success at middle school state. We adopt the weight classes of USA wrestling or any other organization and eliminate the type of weight classes we had this year. Open division has one bracket per weight class no matter how many kids. This will allow all kids to wrestle as well as create a very competitive youth state tournament.
Rescalera - some states do that with their state tournament as well. We discussed this very option this off season and the coaches chose 10% 16 man brackets.
Rescalera - some states do that with their state tournament as well. We discussed this very option this off season and the coaches chose 10% 16 man brackets.
Yep. I don't think we spent more than a couple of minutes debating the three options, and don't think the vote was very close. I'd be for a novice/experienced division, but it seems like the verification part would be difficult. I guess most coaches would be honest but it seems like checking 900+ wrestlers would be a difficult and tedious process.
Yep. I don't think we spent more than a couple of minutes debating the three options, and don't think the vote was very close. I'd be for a novice/experienced division, but it seems like the verification part would be difficult. I guess most coaches would be honest but it seems like checking 900+ wrestlers would be a difficult and tedious process.
Many tournaments with two divisions like this offer nicer awards to the open division than what those in the rookie division get. The open division usually costs a little more for participants than the rookie division. The majority of wrestlers want the nicer awards, so that system seems to keep people pretty honest from what I've seen.
Great read. I think it's important that we understand some Youth wrestlers participating in MS are wrestling only youth wrestlers, lower weight. When it comes to weigh in the 120 and above, Youth wrestlers (Elementary age) actually wrestle MS wrestler with MS age. There were comments on here referring to difference of opinions on participating in Youth State while already earned a MS state placement.
If you have a wrestler in the 100lbs&below bracket, they most likely wrestle youth (Elementary age) wrestlers. If you look at 120lbs and up, the Elementary age wrestlers participating in MS will wrestle MS aged wrestlers. Huge difference. Therefore to declare someone crazy is really not fair.
If you have an Elementary aged wrestler participating in MS, great, but let the child wrestle their own age and size, too. I guess it's always up to each individual wrestler and parent to decide. Winning or placing in MS State or Youth State, i think it's equally a great accomplishment. To downplay one to another would be a great injustice to the program and the child.
Guys - you do understand that if you took the 70-86 weight classes at middle school, the majority are youth aged? These are essentially weight classes filled with YOUTH wrestlers. We would have seen many rematches at youth state that we saw at middle. We aren't talking about some Livingston Merrit type who is a 130lb youth kid placing at middle school state. Basically, all we have done with this rule is cut off our best, most experienced, and most competitive weight classes from the youth state tournament for no reason. I am baffled that so many act as if we are doing something good with this. We have accomplished nothing but removed our best youth kids from the state tournament. We aren't protecting anyone, helping growth, or whatever else you have convinced yourselves this accomplished. If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy because you feel good about giving some other kids some medals, then fine. But please don't act as if this has had or will have any positive affect on our state's growth.
Completely agree w it.
I would like to add that this year's Youth State Tournament was like any other we have attended before. The new brackets, 16 wrestlers were awesome. Competition was tough, not like other years. Great job.
