arre the any other schools that drive more than 3 hours and through 2 other districts to get to their district tournament. 

Yes our team has too as well.

2 minutes ago, TommyD3498 said:

Yes our team has too as well.

What district? From where to where?

Montgomery County to Wayne county.  About two hours for us.  Some of the other schools had to drive even farther then us.

Is district 8 the only one with this problem. 

We had to drive 3 hours to attend District 8 

Yes district 8 is the major issue. Teams have been assigned there based on the low numbers historically. I can't recall there being 100 kids in that district for a while. Hopefully this growth is solid and will be sustained and it can be realigned to reduce the drive for some teams. 

55 minutes ago, Ranger123 said:

Yes district 8 is the major issue. Teams have been assigned there based on the low numbers historically. I can't recall there being 100 kids in that district for a while. Hopefully this growth is solid and will be sustained and it can be realigned to reduce the drive for some teams. 

According to info from a different post district 8  is second in numbers behind district 1. District 3,4,5 all are below 100. District 1 has more participation than region 2. I was trying to figure out if all districts are spread out that far it seems since we go through other district to get to the host school that there should be a better way to align district. 

Possible solution-

1- Get rid of having multiple entries by the same team in one weight class. Simply stated, 1 kid, per team, per weight class.

2- Drop the district tournament. Too many times I have seen only 2-3 kids entered into a weight class at districts while other districts have plenty. Show up, weigh in, and go to regions. Sounds like youth wrestling to me. Time to put our big boy undies on. 

3. Once the district tournament is eliminated, you keep your 4 regions, with plentiful numbers and have a great competitive tournament sending the best kids to state. 

Not popular ideas, I know, but it does introduce competitiveness at the team level for middle school. Just my thoughts though. Let the boos begin!

13 minutes ago, Nike Man said:

Possible solution-

1- Get rid of having multiple entries by the same team in one weight class. Simply stated, 1 kid, per team, per weight class.

2- Drop the district tournament. Too many times I have seen only 2-3 kids entered into a weight class at districts while other districts have plenty. Show up, weigh in, and go to regions. Sounds like youth wrestling to me. Time to put our big boy undies on. 

3. Once the district tournament is eliminated, you keep your 4 regions, with plentiful numbers and have a great competitive tournament sending the best kids to state. 

Not popular ideas, I know, but it does introduce competitiveness at the team level for middle school. Just my thoughts though. Let the boos begin!

I actually agree, many times there are kids that doesnt make it to region from 1 district that is much better than a kid from the other district that makes their region. This would also make it more consistent with hs, which I always hear we are trying to do.

This also frees up refs on an already busy weekend. With districts and section duals the same day, there was a shortage of refs. That many events is hard with the numbers of refs on the decline

Limiting post season entries will immediately reduce numbers at the ms level. Yes we want to be as consistent with HS as possible, but we have to also keeps kids out. 

We can eliminate the district round of the post season, but I think with that we need a 2 day regional (Friday night/ Saturday) to run what would likely be 32 man brackets in some weights/regions. 

I second Ranger's thoughts and idea

yes how many middle schools are going to pay for an overnight tourney. 

2 hours ago, Nike Man said:

Possible solution-

1- Get rid of having multiple entries by the same team in one weight class. Simply stated, 1 kid, per team, per weight class.

2- Drop the district tournament. Too many times I have seen only 2-3 kids entered into a weight class at districts while other districts have plenty. Show up, weigh in, and go to regions. Sounds like youth wrestling to me. Time to put our big boy undies on. 

3. Once the district tournament is eliminated, you keep your 4 regions, with plentiful numbers and have a great competitive tournament sending the best kids to state. 

Not popular ideas, I know, but it does introduce competitiveness at the team level for middle school. Just my thoughts though. Let the boos begin!

1.  I think this would kill numbers at the middle school level.  Like it or not, Middle School should still be somewhat about getting kids to participate.  Often some of the deeper teams have multiple good kids at a weight class...you'll knock out quite a few good wrestlers if you limit teams to 1 per weight class.

2.  So what if you have a short weight class or two??  If those kids don't belong, they get weeded out at region.

3.  The regional tourney will be no more competitive under that format...as it is, the best kids in each district make the region.  All your doing by having a super region, is just adding the kids that got weeded out in the district tourney.  The quarterfinals of a super region won't likely be any different than what you have under the current format of 8 man bracket region tourney.

Letting all kid experience post season wrestling is great prep for high school, which is what ms wrestling is all about.  Preparing kids for high school wrestling.

2 hours ago, Nike Man said:

Possible solution-

1- Get rid of having multiple entries by the same team in one weight class. Simply stated, 1 kid, per team, per weight class.

2- Drop the district tournament. Too many times I have seen only 2-3 kids entered into a weight class at districts while other districts have plenty. Show up, weigh in, and go to regions. Sounds like youth wrestling to me. Time to put our big boy undies on. 

3. Once the district tournament is eliminated, you keep your 4 regions, with plentiful numbers and have a great competitive tournament sending the best kids to state. 

Not popular ideas, I know, but it does introduce competitiveness at the team level for middle school. Just my thoughts though. Let the boos begin!

1- Is an awful idea. Ask Ryle/Union Co what they think about that. Possibly eliminating really good wrestlers. Gabe & Gideon Adams most recently.

2- You never know who is going to have what at district. Its always a numbers game.

3- Region is already competitive thanks to multiple entries.

Possible idea. Combine district 3/4. Take a few of the teams from region 1(Ohio Co., Apollo, Daviess Co.) add to district 2. Realign districts 7 & 8 to split into 3 districts.   

Lastly, centralize your tournament venue. Share the expense?

RJS beat me to the punch

I understand building programs and numbers. But, in my opinion, this should be done on the youth level. By the time our kids reach middle school, we should be able to distinguish between varsity and jv. I would guess some district numbers are inflated due to teams entering multiple kids per weight class. If numbers give you a warm fuzzy feeling inside, then all is well. No need for change. If more competitive wrestling and improving as a state is the goal, then obvious changes need to be made. Numbers are great, but how are those numbers translating into high school? Not great. Better competition and elite level wrestlers are making the bigger splash. I don't really have a dog in the fight. Just have an old school mentality of you get what you earn. Numbers are great for the eye test, but at the end of the day, I'll take quality over quantity.

Building the sport of wrestling is the job of the youth and middle school.  Kids start developing in middle school and you won't know how big or small they will be down the road. And if you limit the participation then your not doing your best job for your high school. By not giving them a chance they will quit and go do some thing else. We already have a problem at the high school level that if some kids aren't on the varsity team then they would rather sit out a year or quit all together. Most high school teams hope to get probably 5 or more freshman a year to keep numbers a float. Most middle school teams can't even fill every weight class as it is. 

District 5 : Ryle 31, Walton 21, Cov Cath 8, Conner 5. Total : 65. If you limit 1 per weight 43. 22 kids not even getting a chance and some of those will qualify for State and may even place. Doesn't make sense to me. Look at moving teams makes more sense. 

4 hours ago, Nike Man said:

Possible solution-

1- Get rid of having multiple entries by the same team in one weight class. Simply stated, 1 kid, per team, per weight class.

2- Drop the district tournament. Too many times I have seen only 2-3 kids entered into a weight class at districts while other districts have plenty. Show up, weigh in, and go to regions. Sounds like youth wrestling to me. Time to put our big boy undies on. 

3. Once the district tournament is eliminated, you keep your 4 regions, with plentiful numbers and have a great competitive tournament sending the best kids to state. 

Not popular ideas, I know, but it does introduce competitiveness at the team level for middle school. Just my thoughts though. Let the boos begin!

I like the idea of getting rid of Districts too.  Simply put, we just don't have the #'s to warrant 2 qualifiers. 

Maybe allow 2 entry limit per class at Regions. That would help control the bracket sizes and ensure the best kids participate. The Adams brothers are a great example. Do we really want to exclude the 2nd best wrestler from the state tournament? I wouldn't.

The youth state tournament added a "middle school" age group last year for this exact reason. It even counts their team points (if you can believe that).  If a newbie MS kid cannot crack their lineup but still wants to participate in a post season event, this should be the tournament for them. 

MLee, you make excellent points. I don't want to exclude anyone, especially if they are 2 of the best. Just trying to see us grow, and in my opinion, growing isn't always a number game. I didn't realize that the youth had made that amendment. Sounds like you guys are doing a great job. I know that you and I have been at odds in the past, but, at the end of the day, it sounds like we both want what is best for our sport. Neither right or wrong, just both, very bull headed.  

With the attrition rate as high as it is in this sport, youth AND middle school has to be about numbers. As a parent/coach of a kid who is 10 and is in his 4th year of wrestling and #4 on the depth chart on our team, I would hate see the district limited to one wrestler. He is in that stage where he is beating most of kids his age at youth tournaments and getting beat by the middle school kids. He went two and out at our district tournament with one match he was clearly outclassed in and another he lost in overtime. The best wrestlers still won and advanced and a young kid got some good experience a local tournament wrestling older competition that he will likely see again in the coming years. In my opinion that is still helping the quality of competition while allowing for quantity. There are also a lot great kids who burn out at the middle school level  and never make it to high school. Inevitably the second and third string guys fill those roles and a lot of times go on to be great wrestlers. If you weed them all out early you wind up with holes on your high school team when your middle school hammers flame out .

My thoughts are you stay with 4 regions and introduce the possibility of up to 24 man brackets, still allows the "newbies" to wrestle in the rat tails of the bracket. Obviously seed the top 8 in each region. Then the rat tails fill spot 12-16 of the bracket. I know the five match rule could possibly come into play. But the odds show that the wrestlers drawn in the rat tails won't advance farther then the cons quarters. Just my two cents

     Once again the community is trying to get rid of the "middle class".  Those kids who are in the sport, but are not the greatest.  The lower class or "kids with lower level skills" probably won't care much about not entering the district tourney.  The upper class or "kids who are at the top" won't care much about not having a district tourney.  But those middle class kids, it means a lot for them.  This is the heart of wrestling.  If you can't keep these kids out then you lose the sport.  High school is already having that problem.  If you don't wrestle year round or are not one of the top kids you are overlooked.  

     What is one more week of post season going to hurt?  The season already ends 3 weeks before the high school does.  What is the negative impact of the district tourney?  

Lets remember why KSWA went to the district format in the first place. 

1.  32 man brackets or bigger under the old regional format (each team got 2 wrestlers per weight class), as # of teams continued to grow, it became hard to have it as a one day event.  

2.  Gyms spaces not big enough to hold a 1 day - 32 man bracket tournament.  (name the places that it could be hosted in your region, then work the event around HS Basketball schedule and HS Wrestling Schedule)

3.  Due to the 2 wrestlers per weight class format, it was noted that several wrestlers were dropping inappropriate amount of weight to make lower weight classes so they could wrestle due to the kids on their specific roster.  

4.  Why should kids that practice all year with a team, not be given the chance to participate in the post season. 

3 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

     Once again the community is trying to get rid of the "middle class".  Those kids who are in the sport, but are not the greatest.  The lower class or "kids with lower level skills" probably won't care much about not entering the district tourney.  The upper class or "kids who are at the top" won't care much about not having a district tourney.  But those middle class kids, it means a lot for them.  This is the heart of wrestling.  If you can't keep these kids out then you lose the sport.  High school is already having that problem.  If you don't wrestle year round or are not one of the top kids you are overlooked.  

     What is one more week of post season going to hurt?  The season already ends 3 weeks before the high school does.  What is the negative impact of the district tourney?  

Goo, the biggest complaint we here is that teams loss money on the district tournament. (yet no one has ever been able to show any financial proof that actually happens.)  This year is the first year anybody has complained about travel for Districts.  

Not saying a realignment of teams isnt warranted, but lets remember that realigning teams based upon this seasons roster sizes can be foolish to an extent, kids here today, gone tomorrow. Have to look at the whole picture. 

If you mean the host team lost money on the event that is easy to rectify.  After the receipts are counted then divide the loss by the teams entered and that is their entry fee. If your school is concerned about losing money then skip your turn to host it.  

If you skip the district tourney then those teams would probably enter another tourney that would cost them an entry fee anyway.  

Alignment needs to be by geography and a little about participation.  Don't make teams travel 2 hours out of their way to enter a district that needs it. 

The high school old districts and now regions have number problems also but its by geography and a little bit participation. 

4 minutes ago, KSWA Staff said:

Lets remember why KSWA went to the district format in the first place. 

1.  32 man brackets or bigger under the old regional format (each team got 2 wrestlers per weight class), as # of teams continued to grow, it became hard to have it as a one day event.  

2.  Gyms spaces not big enough to hold a 1 day - 32 man bracket tournament.  (name the places that it could be hosted in your region, then work the event around HS Basketball schedule and HS Wrestling Schedule)

3.  Due to the 2 wrestlers per weight class format, it was noted that several wrestlers were dropping inappropriate amount of weight to make lower weight classes so they could wrestle due to the kids on their specific roster.  

4.  Why should kids that practice all year with a team, not be given the chance to participate in the post season. 

 

 

To address #4- .....never mind. Here's your trophy.

2 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

If you mean the host team lost money on the event that is easy to rectify.  After the receipts are counted then divide the loss by the teams entered and that is their entry fee. If your school is concerned about losing money then skip your turn to host it.  

If you skip the district tourney then those teams would probably enter another tourney that would cost them an entry fee anyway.  

Alignment needs to be by geography and a little about participation.  Don't make teams travel 2 hours out of their way to enter a district that needs it. 

The high school old districts and now regions have number problems also but its by geography and a little bit participation. 

The distance thing I dont get.  If every school should get a chance to host districts, then on some years are you not going to travel further than others?  

5 minutes ago, Nike Man said:

To address #4- .....never mind. Here's your trophy.

I think I am missing your point or understanding it incorrectly.  How does allowing a kid to participate in an OPEN District Tournament giving them a participation trophy?

it comes down to the school not wanting kids to leave before 6 in the morning.  What I mean by travel is look at the average travel time for a team to travel to other schools in their district.  

Schools also have to pay bus drivers for the entire time they are gone not just while they are driving, plus fuel costs.  It may not seem much to some schools but it does to many schools. 

4 minutes ago, KSWA Staff said:

I think I am missing your point or understanding it incorrectly.  How does allowing a kid to participate in an OPEN District Tournament giving them a participation trophy?

I think this was said as sarcasm. 

It is about earning the opportunity. Have you ever had a high school freshman that wrestled throughout middle school come up to you and not understand why his teammate is wrestling in the regional tournament and he isn't? He is used to the mentality of everyone gets a chance. Every since youth wrestling, this is what we teach. When does the coddling stop? 

1 minute ago, grappler-of-old said:

it comes down to the school not wanting kids to leave before 6 in the morning.  What I mean by travel is look at the average travel time for a team to travel to other schools in their district.  

Schools also have to pay bus drivers for the entire time they are gone not just while they are driving, plus fuel costs.  It may not seem much to some schools but it does to many schools. 

 

That could be a valid point.  Our school doesnt provide travel for MS sports of any kind, so I wouldnt know.   Lets also remember though that only about 40% of the teams are school teams.  You take away the 4 school teams in our area that dont provide travel via bus and you the numbers are less.  However like I said, a rotation plan of District host elevates this. 

     i think what we forget when talking and making decisions is that every parent/family is as supportive as we on this site are.  In the many many years that I have has some involvement in this great sport I know of many who's parents never saw them wrestle one match.  Probably more than you think.  Not to include those parents/families that could not afford to send their kids to events if not for the school.  

     Some will say that they can find the money if they look, but for most of these type of parents/families it is easier to not allow their child to participate than go out and beg for money.  I'm not agreeing with this but it is the truth.  I would bet that at least 15% of middle school kids are in this category, probably a lot more. 

6 hours ago, Nike Man said:

It is about earning the opportunity. Have you ever had a high school freshman that wrestled throughout middle school come up to you and not understand why his teammate is wrestling in the regional tournament and he isn't? He is used to the mentality of everyone gets a chance. Every since youth wrestling, this is what we teach. When does the coddling stop? 

No.  I've never known of a freshman that didn't understand why he didn't get a chance to wrestle in the regional tourney, or even wrestle in very many tourneys.  Kids aren't stupid...they understand how high school wrestling works, especially if the HS and ms team work together closely as most do.  

I hope we're not expecting a half-day, 100 participant tournament (or less) improve our #'s at the MS level....if so, we're in trouble.

8 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

it comes down to the school not wanting kids to leave before 6 in the morning.  What I mean by travel is look at the average travel time for a team to travel to other schools in their district.  

Schools also have to pay bus drivers for the entire time they are gone not just while they are driving, plus fuel costs.  It may not seem much to some schools but it does to many schools. 

 

This is closer to the point that I was asking about. I was just wandering if 3+ hour travel is an issue in all districts or just district 8. No matter where the tournament is hosted somebody is going to making a 3-4 hour trip, being there for the tournament and then 3-4 hour trip home.

I do not think doing a way with districts is good for the development of the sport. I do believe realignment should be looked at but that was not the intent of this thread but it has turned into a good conversation. 

On ‎1‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 11:09 PM, KSWA Staff said:

That could be a valid point.  Our school doesnt provide travel for MS sports of any kind, so I wouldnt know.   Lets also remember though that only about 40% of the teams are school teams.  You take away the 4 school teams in our area that dont provide travel via bus and you the numbers are less.  However like I said, a rotation plan of District host elevates this. 

Only 40% of the teams at the middle school level are school teams?

42 minutes ago, kyrj said:

Only 40% of the teams at the middle school level are school teams?

Give or take a few % points, yes. 

Is there a district alignment map somewhere?

14 hours ago, tcats said:

Is there a district alignment map somewhere?

Updated list as of today.  Please act accordingly.  

22 hours ago, kyrj said:

Only 40% of the teams at the middle school level are school teams?

This may be true but many of those "club" teams are only club teams so they can add a few kids from outside the main middle school they represent. 

30 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

This may be true but many of those "club" teams are only club teams so they can add a few kids from outside the main middle school they represent. 

Maybe, majority of them are club teams due to the school district in the area they are in, do not sponsor wrestling, hence being a club team is the only option. (See Boone County) for an example. 

So they really are a middle school team just not backed by the middle school they represent. 

I have never truly understood the problem.  Middle school teams should be covered under the high school team.  How is the middle school basketball, and football teams handled? 

That is another argument, which does not change the discussion about distance of districts. 

13 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

So they really are a middle school team just not backed by the middle school they represent. 

I have never truly understood the problem.  Middle school teams should be covered under the high school team.  How is the middle school basketball, and football teams handled? 

That is another argument, which does not change the discussion about distance of districts. 

Football and basketball are sports sponsored by the school district, in most cases wrestling is not.  

There is nothing with the High School or KHSAA that covers anything middle school sports wise. 

I could be wrong but I think the majority of the teams in district 8 are school sponsored teams, not sure though. District travel can be an issue at times, but with the rotation of the district tournament I think it evens out a little.

I have had this argument with coach Smith on this.  Years ago when all this started the school I was involved with told me that the middle school is covered under the high school team.  The old AD and the new AD today still say this is true today. 

2 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

I have had this argument with coach Smith on this.  Years ago when all this started the school I was involved with told me that the middle school is covered under the high school team.  The old AD and the new AD today still say this is true today. 

We are a school sponsored team , my AD assured me we are covered.

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 10:38 AM, grappler-of-old said:

So they really are a middle school team just not backed by the middle school they represent. 

I have never truly understood the problem.  Middle school teams should be covered under the high school team.  How is the middle school basketball, and football teams handled? 

That is another argument, which does not change the discussion about distance of districts. 

in Louisville many of the high schools don't have a single middle school associated with them.  There are actually very few that do.  For instance, Fern Creek has several middle schools that feed into the high school, like Ramsey, Newburg and others.  While others like Moore have a middle school and a high school on the same campus.  Some high schools that have wrestling teams, do not have feeder programs either.  That is why you have kids that grow up with a club team like Fern Creek never planning on going to the high school,  end up going to Male or one of the private schools. Also several club teams have wrestlers from some of the catholic grade schools around town.  I guess I'm just saying that the high schools can't always cover the middle school teams.