I'm interested in people's thoughts on the way byes are handled vs.forfeits.  My opinion is that these two conditions can and do create some scoring / seeding anomalies, at least at the high school level:

1.  Why are tournament byes not given the max team points?  No bonus points are allowed for tourney byes, just standard advancement points, but conversely a full 6 points are given to the opposing team for dual forfeits, not 3.  In tournaments byes usually go to the higher seeded kids, who then lose an opportunity to score bonus team points, an opportunity the other kids in the bracket that do have matches get.

2.  Since overall record is almost always used as a seeding criteria, why do forfeits count toward your record, but byes don't?  By the end of the season, this skews in favor of the heavier dual participant.  The kid receiving the bye scores team points in the tournament for advancement, but isn't allowed to count it toward his record.  The dual participant receiving the forfeit also scores team points in the dual, and does get to count it toward his record.

It seems to me that in a true comparison of overall record, you'd either want to use "all matches actually wrestled" for both kids, or "all potential matches, both wrestled and not wrestled' for both kids.   Not a mix of the two conditions.

Byes should absolutely, 110%, no questions asked, be counted as wins! Your team gets penalized for having top level wrestlers? That's crazy! 

The forefiets should at least be taken out of their records. Some heavyweights have 1/2 of their wins as forfeits. 

8 hours ago, CBender said:

I'm interested in people's thoughts on the way byes are handled vs.forfeits.  My opinion is that these two conditions can and do create some scoring / seeding anomalies, at least at the high school level:

1.  Why are tournament byes not given the max team points?  No bonus points are allowed for tourney byes, just standard advancement points, but conversely a full 6 points are given to the opposing team for dual forfeits, not 3.  In tournaments byes usually go to the higher seeded kids, who then lose an opportunity to score bonus team points, an opportunity the other kids in the bracket that do have matches get.

2.  Since overall record is almost always used as a seeding criteria, why do forfeits count toward your record, but byes don't?  By the end of the season, this skews in favor of the heavier dual participant.  The kid receiving the bye scores team points in the tournament for advancement, but isn't allowed to count it toward his record.  The dual participant receiving the forfeit also scores team points in the dual, and does get to count it toward his record.

It seems to me that in a true comparison of overall record, you'd either want to use "all matches actually wrestled" for both kids, or "all potential matches, both wrestled and not wrestled' for both kids.   Not a mix of the two conditions.

 

 

 

 

Great questions.  Really looking forward to some understanding on this.  I've only got 5 years under my belt in the world of wrestling and have asked other parents but no one else seems to know either.  

     I think a few things are not understood.  The top seeded wrestler does not always get the bye this occurs only if the tourney is seeded all the way down.  In my several decades of wrestling I have not been part of a tourney that does this.  I understand that some of the regions do this and I applaud them.  

     With that said I do believe that a bye should be given full points in a tourney.  This would do two things give the kid who got the bye points for his team and maybe influence coaches to seed tourneys all the way down. 

     As for the forfeits being counted as wins.  This only occurs in duals or if during a tourney a kid leaves the tourney by DQ or injury.  if a kid makes weight and goes to a dual then he should get a win over that team because they don't have one or choose not to send someone out to wrestle.  At a tourney there is no opponent to get the win against. Many times a team may have a 1st year wrestler or a weak wrestler and they choose to forfeit against a greatly superior wrestler.  Do you punish the better wrestler for this? 

34 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

     I think a few things are not understood.  The top seeded wrestler does not always get the bye this occurs only if the tourney is seeded all the way down.  In my several decades of wrestling I have not been part of a tourney that does this.  I understand that some of the regions do this and I applaud them.  

     With that said I do believe that a bye should be given full points in a tourney.  This would do two things give the kid who got the bye points for his team and maybe influence coaches to seed tourneys all the way down. 

     As for the forfeits being counted as wins.  This only occurs in duals or if during a tourney a kid leaves the tourney by DQ or injury.  if a kid makes weight and goes to a dual then he should get a win over that team because they don't have one or choose not to send someone out to wrestle.  At a tourney there is no opponent to get the win against. Many times a team may have a 1st year wrestler or a weak wrestler and they choose to forfeit against a greatly superior wrestler.  Do you punish the better wrestler for this? 

GOO, how do you applaud seeding the regional tournament all the way out but yet your last sentence asks about punishing a superior wrestler? In my opinion, when you seed out the regional tournament, your punishing an entire team for having top notch kids. So, in the end, to answer your question, yes, we are punishing the better wrestlers.

the difference is spelled out in the rule book.  Any changes would have to come at the NFHS level first.

that being said, I believe there is an option to push the byes to the top seeded wrestlers in Track.  In other words, you can seed the top three and any byes would go to the top seeds in order.

25 minutes ago, Nike Man said:

GOO, how do you applaud seeding the regional tournament all the way out but yet your last sentence asks about punishing a superior wrestler? In my opinion, when you seed out the regional tournament, your punishing an entire team for having top notch kids. So, in the end, to answer your question, yes, we are punishing the better wrestlers.

Hes saying that you need to award them max points AND seed all the way out. This gets proper seeding and gives the higher seeds their points

1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:

     I think a few things are not understood.  The top seeded wrestler does not always get the bye this occurs only if the tourney is seeded all the way down.  In my several decades of wrestling I have not been part of a tourney that does this.  I understand that some of the regions do this and I applaud them.  

     With that said I do believe that a bye should be given full points in a tourney.  This would do two things give the kid who got the bye points for his team and maybe influence coaches to seed tourneys all the way down. 

     As for the forfeits being counted as wins.  This only occurs in duals or if during a tourney a kid leaves the tourney by DQ or injury.  if a kid makes weight and goes to a dual then he should get a win over that team because they don't have one or choose not to send someone out to wrestle.  At a tourney there is no opponent to get the win against. Many times a team may have a 1st year wrestler or a weak wrestler and they choose to forfeit against a greatly superior wrestler.  Do you punish the better wrestler for this? 

If at a dual and the other team doesn't have a weight or chooses not to send someone out to wrestle, then there's also "no one to wrestle".  I am willing to accept that duals handle the situation correctly...but if they do, then tourney byes should get max points and +1 to your record as well.  After all, some team at the tournament didn't have one, or chose not to enter whomever they had.  Comparing records as a seeding criteria, with forfeits (at least non-injury forfeits) counted and byes excluded, seems to breed an inconsistency.

4 minutes ago, coachteater said:

Hes saying that you need to award them max points AND seed all the way out. This gets proper seeding and gives the higher seeds their points

Thanks for clearing that up. I misread it. 

GOO is correct. If a kid makes weight and shows up for a dual, he should get the win if the other team has no one to wrestle that other wrestler.

Regarding tournaments (Bracket Individual tournaments), you can select to have the BYES to be randomly drawled into the bracket. I know on track you can do this. However even with this, they seem to sometimes always go to the top 4 seeds getting the BYE. Not always but it seems to put the BYE on one of those lines.

My suggestion would be to do this. If you have 12 kids that are entered, lets say at 145 pound weight class. Before any seeding takes place for that weight class,  I would have the coaches vote or place the byes first on the bracket. Then I would seed the kids and then let the computer/track randomly place the other wrestlers into the bracket. 

So you would need 4 byes for this weight class. And if you know your going to have 6 seeded kids. Take the lines or seed places/positions on the bracket out! This way you can't place a bye on those lines (because that's where the seeded kids will go). Then have someone pull two byes for the top side of the bracket out of hat or something, and have someone pull two byes for the bottom half of the bracket. Place those byes and then drawl in the other wrestlers.

If this was a state rule I could see the argument more, but this is a national rule. I'm not exactly sure why they do this, but I'm sure guys with my more wrestling knowleshe did it this way for a reason. It's funny I've never really seen this brought up as an issue till now. Seems like the only reason why, is because a good team didn't finish first, but could have with that kind of point change. Point is, I don't feel it would have been brought up if that situation didn't happen. Seems more like a hidden agenda for one team rather then genuine concern over a rule

OK, what about this, regarding bracket tournaments.

Lets say you have 12 kids for wt class 145. You use a 16 man bracket. So you are saying that those kids receiving byes should get max points?

What about a weight class that has 6 kids in it. Do you still create a full 16 man bracket with a bunch of byes and still expect for that kid to receive max points for like two or maybe three byes in a row before they even get a real match to wrestle?

It was brought up as a general question and a logical one, I've wondered this for years. From a points perspective, I think it should be equal to a forfeit in bracket tournaments ( 2 for advancement in championship round + 2 for bye/forfeit/dq/pin) in the conso round ( 1 for advancement + 2 for bye/forfeit/dq/pin). So it would be max points given for it. 

2 minutes ago, Bearcats Coach said:

OK, what about this, regarding bracket tournaments.

Lets say you have 12 kids for wt class 145. You use a 16 man bracket. So you are saying that those kids receiving byes should get max points?

What about a weight class that has 6 kids in it. Do you still create a full 16 man bracket with a bunch of byes and still expect for that kid to receive max points for like two or maybe three byes in a row before they even get a real match to wrestle?

Switch to an 8 man bracket?

2 minutes ago, Bearcats Coach said:

OK, what about this, regarding bracket tournaments.

Lets say you have 12 kids for wt class 145. You use a 16 man bracket. So you are saying that those kids receiving byes should get max points?

What about a weight class that has 6 kids in it. Do you still create a full 16 man bracket with a bunch of byes and still expect for that kid to receive max points for like two or maybe three byes in a row before they even get a real match to wrestle?

The reason above is why wrestlers shouldn't get full points for byes.  Most tourney's have to use several different bracket types.  I ran one early this year that had bracket sizes from 32 down to a 3 man round robin.  Byes are just byes...not scheduled matches and receiving a bye shouldn't earn a team points.  A forfeit in a tourney occurs when a scheduled match doesn't occur because one wrestler isn't able to compete for one reason or another.

8 minutes ago, coachteater said:

If this was a state rule I could see the argument more, but this is a national rule. I'm not exactly sure why they do this, but I'm sure guys with my more wrestling knowleshe did it this way for a reason. It's funny I've never really seen this brought up as an issue till now. Seems like the only reason why, is because a good team didn't finish first, but could have with that kind of point change. Point is, I don't feel it would have been brought up if that situation didn't happen. Seems more like a hidden agenda for one team rather then genuine concern over a rule

So just because it only effected 1 team, it's not a cause for conversation? No hidden agenda. Woodford had a ton of byes and lost Regionals by 2 points to very good Oldham Co. At no other tournament during the year does almost every #1 seed get a bye, they are randomly chosen by track. No sour grapes, just trying to understand why it is done this way once a year. 

5 minutes ago, justaref said:

Switch to an 8 man bracket?

Yes normally you would go to 8 man bracket. My point is to make it fair on even playing field. Some weight class will not be full. Heck Region 4 120 had like 4 kids.

So not one wrestler is receiving 2-3 byes vs another wrestler, if you can prevent this.

7 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

The reason above is why wrestlers shouldn't get full points for byes.  Most tourney's have to use several different bracket types.  I ran one early this year that had bracket sizes from 32 down to a 3 man round robin.  Byes are just byes...not scheduled matches and receiving a bye shouldn't earn a team points.  A forfeit in a tourney occurs when a scheduled match doesn't occur because one wrestler isn't able to compete for one reason or another.

exactly!

11 minutes ago, Bearcats Coach said:

OK, what about this, regarding bracket tournaments.

Lets say you have 12 kids for wt class 145. You use a 16 man bracket. So you are saying that those kids receiving byes should get max points?

What about a weight class that has 6 kids in it. Do you still create a full 16 man bracket with a bunch of byes and still expect for that kid to receive max points for like two or maybe three byes in a row before they even get a real match to wrestle?

Bearcats Coach - yuck, I can't say I'd want to watch that, but why not?  At one team dual we attended this year, Adam's first 3 matches were forfeits.  He went 3-0 and scored a max 18 points for his team.  Why shouldn't he get max team points for tourney byes?

Coachteater - you're mistaken that this has anything to do with regional team outcomes, so you can abandon your hidden agenda premise.  I've had this discussion with people from well back when we were a 1-man team, and couldn't viably participate in dual format events.  After attending tournaments exclusively all year long and having 1st round byes in 90% of them, he'd come out of the season with a record 10-15 wins short of everyone else and compare unfavorably with the other low-loss kids that had picked up forfeits all year long.

I'm not arguing for or against either system...merely discussing the discrepancy that gets introduced.

As for the source, I'm sure it's a national HS rule, that derives from a college rule, that has less impact and thus less discussion merit in wrestling hotbed states with 5x the teams and with more complete rosters / full tournaments on average.

5 minutes ago, Bearcats Coach said:

exactly!

But, those byes should be random and not given to just the top seed or top seeds. 

5 minutes ago, Nike Man said:

But, those byes should be random and not given to just the top seed or top seeds. 

That's really simple to do.  Trackwrestling allows you to choose whether you want the top seeds to receive preference for byes, or whether they be assigned randomly.  Or you could do it the old fashioned way and draw cards.

Nike Man..

If you see my previous post. I stated, I think we need to put/place the BYES into the bracket First. Before anything else.

2 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

That's really simple to do.  Trackwrestling allows you to choose whether you want the top seeds to receive preference for byes, or whether they be assigned randomly.  Or you could do it the old fashioned way and draw cards.

 

DRAW CARDS!!!!! Thats my point. Put the byes on the bracket FIRST! Yes rjs, I think this is by far best way to handle this. Yes it takes a little time, but I think its fair!

If this is all about Reg 5 results there were only THREE competitors at 120!! That is insane.  If Yost gets one more win (even a decision) then Woodford wins the tournament. Blame the lack of full rosters not first round byes.

13 hours ago, DrBaker said:

The forefiets should at least be taken out of their records. Some heavyweights have 1/2 of their wins as forfeits. 

5 minutes ago, CradleKY said:

If this is all about Reg 5 results there were only THREE competitors at 120!! That is insane.  If Yost gets one more win (even a decision) then Woodford wins the tournament. Blame the lack of full rosters not first round byes.

 

 

There are entire teams who have half of their wins as forfeits. It's not fair when seeding to teams who have not accumulated forfeits. 

Mathematically, sure, give them points for byes and forfeits at tournaments and duals. But, I've never been a fan of using forfeits and byes as part of the actual record. Records should reflect actual matches wrestled, imo. Otherwise, you'll have major discrepancies when seeding a tournament that goes by record. We've experienced that a lot this year and brackets get "busted" quickly. Just my Canadian $0.02.

If all events drew byes into a tournament first and randomly as a matter of statewide policy, I believe you would certainly take a significant step to help to minimize the impact of both situations, maybe as well as could be expected within the context of the current NFHS rules.  

When byes are not random and esp. when they are assigned to seeded wrestlers first, then I have difficulty understanding any "tourney byes don't score max points" argument, or any "forfeits count on your record but byes don't" policy.  There is little logical argument to include a non-injury dual forfeit as an achievement of highest merit (a worthy-of-the-record books win by fall), but not treat an assigned tournament bye that results from high seeding similarly, when scoring or when comparing two overall records for seeding purposes.  

Could that have been the reasoning behind Woodford coming in second to Oldham? I am with you CBender. Union had 7 guys with byes their first round, it would clearly have put them over the 300pt mark (297.5).

5 minutes ago, ukpridewrestler11 said:

Could that have been the reasoning behind Woodford coming in second to Oldham? I am with you CBender. Union had 7 guys with byes their first round, it would clearly have put them over the 300pt mark (297.5).

So, I went to Track and counted the numbers of byes on each team. Both had 6. 

Oldham - 4 byes in champ side, 2 in consoles. 

Woodford - 6 byes in champ side. 

OC won by two points - if all byes received bonus, then no - but if only champs, then yes. 

BC;   If you draw the byes first then coaches will try to disrupt the seed process so they don't get the seed that has the bye

It seems to me that the only real time this comes into play is at the regional tournament.  

With the use of Track Wrestling seeding could be done by a 3rd party in most cases.  Looking at Head to head and common opponent will almost always sort the top 6 kids out from each other.  For that matter it would probably sort out all the seeds all the way down to 16.  

What many don't see is that getting in for that 5th or 6th place is extremely important to many wrestlers/teams.  It's not just about the top two or top 4.  If you are one that might be 6th best but get randomly drawn to where you never meet the 6th or 5th seed you never get to prove it.  

The inconsistency between the two formats regarding byes and forfeits has bothered me for a long time.  With duals I think a team that has an empty weight class should be penalized (or the full team should be rewarded, to use positive language), because it's collectively a team competition.

Tournaments are obviously individual, but they keep a team score, meaning teams that have full rosters should be rewarded in this situation as well, in my opinion.  One could argue that the teams are already rewarded by having a wrestler that has the opportunity to score points, which is true.  One could also say that team scores at tournaments should be done away with, which I'm not advocating, but the discrepancy between the systems does exist and should be addressed.

Perhaps a compromise is to allow byes to count as a win (could be a regular decision or a pin in terms of points, either would be fine with me) to reward the teams with full rosters in tournaments.  This means however that records would be further inflated by matches that didn't really occur.  To counter this in seeding meetings, regions could modify their win percentage criteria to only include wins where two wrestlers actually competed against each other.  This gives consistency for dual and tournament scoring, rewards teams with full rosters at tournaments, and doesn't negatively affect wrestlers with less "opportunities" for wins where no match actually occurred.  Maybe the KHSAA could mandate this for next year, although we all know how much they listen to us coaches.

Just do placing points  10 for 1st 8 for2nd 6 for 3rd 4 for 4th 2for 5th 1 for 6th Then its just win baby

Zeus;  At many duals a great wrestler will receive a forfeit because the opposing team may bump up their wrestler for a better chance of a win.  This great wrestler then receives fewer wins which will hurt his record.  To me this is worse than an inflated record.  As I said it really does not matter during the season, seeding in not important during regular season tournaments.  This only effects the regional tourney and at that point your wins are recorded by who you wrestle. "Head to Head and common opponent" 

Very true GOO, I guess I think only wins actually wrestled should be counted in seeding now matter what.  The overall record can be as whatever, but we all know a forfeit/bye is not the same as an earned win.

7 minutes ago, Zeus said:

 I guess I think only wins actually wrestled should be counted in seeding now matter what.

I think this is already being done for the most part.  I don't believe many kids have received a higher seed because of forfeits. It is usually because of their quality of work during the season.

Coaches are not dumb when it comes to seed meetings. 

Not true, I know our seed meeting body of work is not a factor.