So I just found out today that it appears Eastern, one of the most storied and successful programs in all of Kentucky, let alone Louisville, has dropped their program
I don't want to name names and cause people to feel unjustly called out but I can think of several other programs in the Louisville area alone that are on life support and I would be surprised if we don't lose at least one more program before season start.
I think the days of sitting around and grumbling about "Title IX" or "Kids aren't mentally tough" has gotten us nowhere. Well no that's incorrect, it has buried us deeper into this hole. I can think of many ideas some kind and some unkind about what would turn around the health of men's wrestling in Kentucky. But just go off of region numbers from last year, how many teams in the state even fielded a full lineup? There is literally a science about motivating kids to want to compete and engaging in the literally millennia old blame game of blaming teenagers and their attitudes will do us absolutely zero favors if we want to actually see some positive change.
So I open the floor, those who know me well personally know that I can and will rant but I want to leave the opportunity open for others before I let my very vocal opinions get expressed
Program Health
Topic ID: 13996 | 52 Posts
One of the big problems is that sports are not for fun anymore.
Those kids that are just trying to have fun with any sport are shunned away. If your not trying to win a state title or national championship then these kids are not given the time of day. I know in my day (you know the stone age) there were many kids on our team that just wanted to have fun. They were satisfied with winning more than they lost. They were not going 24/7 365 days a year trying to be the best in the country or the state or even the wrestling room. However those kids were and are needed in our wrestling rooms. It gives those who just want to have fun something to do instead of running the streets, it also helps those that are trying to be the best in the country/state. Gives them some different competition in the wrestling room.
Other sports have an easier time because there kids can have pick up games whenever they feel the urge to. Basketball, baseball, football, soccer, all have the luxury of being able to wake up one day and say "I want to play a game of soccer" they go to the soccer field or backyard with a a few others and play. Then the next day or week they don't feel like playing they don't. During the season we can't have kids not coming to practice every day, but in the off-season we have to allow these kids to come when they get the urge, and not chastise them when they don't come for a couple of weeks in the summer. If we fill the kids needs, not the coaches/parents needs we can get these kids more interested in the sport. Then maybe they will show up more often in the off-season and love the sport more.
I hear so many coaches say "this kid is killing me. He can be so much better but does not give me 100% in the practice room" I usually say to them "What does he want from wrestling? does he want to be a state champion, or is he satisfied with his progress?" We as parents and coaches can't push every kid to be a state champion or national champion. We have to push them just a little farther than what they expect from themselves. Then when they reach their own goals most will move there goals to higher expectations and then parent s and coaches can push them a little bit harder. Some kids will just be satisfied with a 500 record. If that is what you have then foster that goal, push them to just be over 500 and not scold or scoff them when they don't want to be a state champion or national champion.
FUN FUN FUN that is the key. We all know you have more fun when you win, but NOT when someone is always telling you 'You can do better"
OK I have said enough. I will end this with my old disclaimer.
These are the opinions of GOO nothing more and nothing less. In the grand scheme of things it means very little and you can take them or leave them.
GOO OUT>
GOOd point. BUT ...
I've never had any issues with kids who just want to be part of the team or just win half their matches. I actually appreciate those kids especially when they are honest and up front with their goals. The problem comes with kids and parents who whine and cry when they don't place or do not even qualify for state. Too many of those whiners are people who don't put in the time or effort to achieve those goals, but expect magic to happen in season. Heck I even preach to the kids I work with all summer that life isn't always fair and nothing is guaranteed even for those who work 24/7/365. You have to enjoy it and realize it is about more than the wins and losses. Being a state champ is great, but my kid winning a state title wasn't on the radar for criteria in him going to Cornell. Grades, work ethic, and getting outside our state borders were much larger factors.
All I've ever asked and expected of kids is to put in time/effort commensurate with their goals. Unfortunately, what I typically see in our state is maybe 50% of necessary effort.
I think a big part of our problem here in KY is our scheduling. Being from another state, I've had the opportunity to see how other states do things. And quite frankly, our way of scheduling sucks. Traveling up to a couple of hours and spending all day in a gym every Saturday from December through February is a grind. Where I'm from, the majority of the season is made up of two dual meets with other schools every week, with a few Saturday tournaments mixed in. This type of schedule has lots of benefits. One, it allows parents and wrestlers to have some free weekends. It also makes the sport more spectator friendly....dual meets are easier to follow, and it really brings the team element of the sport to the forefront, and allows the student body to get involved. These types of events are far more exciting, and might even help draw more kids into the sport. Also, it would allow JV wrestlers more opportunity to wrestle in get experience, as they can can wrestle before the main event (rather than being left out in individual bracket tourneys), helping develop experience and depth in programs. It also helps reduce weight cutting, as wrestlers are forced to maintain weight because of multiple weekly weigh ins, rather than cutting hard all week after blowing up after weighing in. Now I understand that some schools are limited geographically, and can't get the gym time to host weekly meets, but we need to do better. It's the number one complaint parents have, especially with new wrestlers who often go two and out. It's not that kids are soft, or lazy. We just make the sport so time consuming, that those casual wrestlers everyone has mentioned, just don't want to do it. I think it's also one of the reasons we have such a hard time finding and keeping coaches and officials.
My opinion on this subject could go forever but I will try to stick to a few points. What I feel we are missing is expectations. What I mean is over the summer kids from all different programs come to our club and I ask each one of them where does your coach see you next year? Does he see you in a certain weight class or is there any thing in particular he wants you to work on. Of all the kids I've asked one had an answer and I've asked a lot of kids. Ironically he wrestles in Jefferson County and that program isn't struggling and by the way the young man didn't stay a word about a state title his response was a weight class his coach saw him in and certain things he needed to improve on. We have all had that young man that has come to us and he says he wants to quit wrestling because he want's to focus on football. When I talk with them almost everyone of them says that their coach wants them to focus on a certain position and they need to be bigger, stronger ect. An expectation has been put on him and a message that he is needed and it's no secret that many young men these days are lost in where they fit in.
Another issue is that many of these young men don't come from family's with wrestling backgrounds and they don'y know what they are capable of. Grappler -of- old "What does he want from wrestling? I often believe they really don't know what they want because they don't know what they are capable of and motivation is so different for each kid. As coaches we need to step up and help them figure that out.
As coaches what expectations do we put on our young men not just wrestling grades, life ect. Kids want to part of something they will typically rise to the level of expectation set for them. And when the parents buy in it works pretty well. So my second issue is when we as coaches myself included say I hate dealing with parents "if I could only just coach the kids" well that isn't the real world. Now I know there are exceptions to every situation but for the most part when the Wrestler and the parents know the expectations of the coach they typically improve. You can't change that attitude or culture of a program with out the kids and parents buying in.
The bottom line is the CULTURE in some programs needs to change and yes it has to be FUNNNNN. Last year when each of the PENN state wrestlers that won national titles were interviewed they said "I'm just having fun with the sport" or something very close to that. When talking to wrestler who wrestles for Coach Kolat he said "we have fun it's a blast being part of that team".
Lastly the issue of burn out we have all heard "I don't want him to Burn out". So let me quote Coach Tom Brands from the IOWA Hawkeyes "there is no such thing as burn out it's a lack of motivation". Now not every kids want to train year round and there is nothing wrong with that but here is nothing wrong with an setting an expectation for the next years season and for them to wrestle/train for a period in the off season a 6,8 or 12 weeks during the summer. If I'm correct doesn't football do summer work outs that aren't optional.
The bottom line is that we as coaches have to take responsibility for not doing a better job at managing our sports. There are programs that struggle and there are other programs in the the same region or county that are successful so it can be done we have to mange this situation better.
Yes the trend toward dual tournaments have helped the sport. It allows for wrestlers to compete the whole event and allows for those JV/extra wrestlers to wrestle. It also keeps the day shorter. It also allows for teams who are not complete or competitive to wrestle teams like themselves.
Working with parents is a necessity. If they are difficult or not does not matter. You have to remember that they are doing what they think is best for their kid. They may be misinformed but its the coach and the other parents who can help these parents be more informed. Get them to the competitions, get them to interact with the other parents from other schools. Then they will learn the sport and the expectations, but be patients. Kids complaining is to be expected, that's what they do, they are kids.
Give them all a chance. An example I always use is this one. Years and years ago we had a kid who was a good athlete which allowed him to win many matches. 2 years in a row he just stopped showing up near the end of the season. When the next season was about to start we heard that he was coming out again. A coach said "we can't let him come out and quit on us again". We coaches sat down together and talked. I said let him come out, we as coaches just have to realize that we can't count on him at the end of the year. If nothing else we keep him off the street, help his grades and he makes the practice room better. I wish I could say that he stuck it out but he didn't however I am certain that the time he was with the team we made his life better.
Finally finding the right competition for each wrestler is vital. Larger teams can do this easier than smaller teams. They can send two teams JV and Varsity to separate events which helps both. Smaller teams have to get good competition for their 1-3 good wrestlers and less still find the correct competition for their wrestlers filling the spot because they have no one else and can't send JV teams places. (This is where the dual tourneys are a great fit). It takes work for the coach to find those tourneys and maybe changing their schedule from year to year.
The struggling teams can try this. I know a team that has struggled for years. What they do now is when the season is over they take 2-3 weeks off. Then open the wrestling room every day after school. A coach will be there if no-one shows up after 1 hour then they leave. this may happen 1 or 2 times a week. They get 1-5 wrestlers on good days. Their participation has gotten better since they started this.
We here at DC are one of those programs that are not enriched with a wrestling past and sometimes we haven't had much of a present. We started this program in 2005 and over the years have had many state qualifiers, but never a champ. Our numbers and dedication to our program has went up and down. I have been here since the start as an assistant coach and now head for last 6 years. We aren't known to have great wrestlers, but I hear a lot across the state from friends and others about the numbers and problems as do we all. We never was allowed to have a feeder program till about 4 or 5 years ago and through that our numbers stayed balanced over past couple years. I have to say the ever changing hoops you have to jump throw to even have a youth and middle school program for coaches and charters is a royal pain and makes it a tough question is it really worth it. I have fought that question a lot over the past 2 years and still think it is way to hard and don't understand why a certified high school coach should have to go through all the stuff again to coach middle school one should count for the other. Anyways last year was our worst in the history of our school, but my numbers went from 10 kids in 2016 (only 3 actually high schooler's) and State Medalist to zero state qualifiers in 2017, but we had 17 wrestlers (only 4 middle schoolers). This year we currently have 26 on the high school roster and about 7 are middle schooler's still we have very little experience with our most experienced kid a 5th year sophomore who had his first winning season last year, but we are lucky to only have 2 seniors and 1 junior so we are hoping for bigger things. We have never had more than 5 kids show up at any off-season workouts till now we had 21 kids at open mats last Mon. I believe there is 3 big things that has helped our numbers and most have been mentioned. About 4 years ago I started changing our schedule first more duals in some hard tourneys for the few good kids and a few we could actually have some success in, but also making sure that in all tourneys we entered the host schools agreed to allow backups to be placed on other teams to fill there holes so the few JV kids I do have get matches as well. We now only go to 2 individual tourney all year just so the kids know what to expect when entering Regional's. This has helped keep kids happy with match time instead of sitting and watching time. Second we have started traveling a little bit out of state where some of our kids might not get to travel much so this excites them they love the trips. On these trips we as coaches don't stress winning as much as getting experience and have fun enjoy yourself. Last year I took the kids to Alabama University as we wrestled a dual meet near there after I paid to take the kids to Bear Bryant Museum it was really cheap and the kids had a blast. I took them year before to a Military Air Museum free they enjoyed getting out and doing things together. Word has spread how much fun the team is having and numbers grew. And the 3rd thing We tell the kids up front it will be the hardest thing you have ever done in your life and if you stay with it regardless of wins and losses your body will thank you. We work hard for 5 days a week 3 hours a day lifting, running, jump rope all the stuff to get you in shape to wrestle as well as wrestling is hard. I tell them you wont always like practice you will want to quit a hundred times, but the ones that don't will someday have a winning record. It might take some of you a year to go 500 other 3 years, but if you do the stuff you need to rest when you need to work when you should then someday you will be at your goal and you all should set a reliable goal for yourself. Have a winning record maybe make state someday and finally long range hope to medal. All of you are here for a different reason keep that reason close to you and work for why you are here. We will be tough but caring and help you achieve your goals. Its not just about wrestling I tell all my kids I want grades first if you have homework do it before practice come to the room do it there because you will get much further in life with a GPA. We want good kids not just good wrestlers. I believe by us being firm but honest with them I it has helped our numbers grow. We might not ever be in the running as a great program or state championship but if we can make better kids for our world and teach them more about hard work gets you places. Then maybe our program will at least be a good one someday.
This is one of the best threads I have seen on this forum (apart from the news about Eastern, that is sad to see....). A lot of wisdom being shared here that we could all learn from. The one thing I would add to the "List" of things mentioned here that can help your program is to make sure your staff includes at least one teacher or staff member that is in the school building interacting with kids every day! I know that it isn't always a possibility to find teachers with wrestling experience, but even if we are talking about a volunteer assistant that may know nothing about the sport, but knows how to communicate with kids and sees them every day, I think you will find this person to be invaluable in helping promote the sport within your school and get more kids out. If you do not know anyone on the staff at your school, start by asking your wrestlers.....maybe then ask your principal. You will probably be pleasantly surprised at who would be willing to help out if asked.
On 9/23/2017 at 7:12 PM, FalconWrestling said:But just go off of region numbers from last year, how many teams in the state even fielded a full lineup?
I'm not sure this is a true measurement of the health of our sport. Wrestling is not like other sports where anyone can play any position. A certain body weight is required. A full basketball team can be had with any 5 kids on the team or 9 on a baseball team etc. etc......
Fielding a full team is hard for any school. I would bet that many of the schools with 11 or 12 in the lineup have several extra wrestlers on their team. Just because a team can't separate their wrestlers does not mean they have a small team. Some schools have a hard time finding 3-4 big guys, some have trouble finding 3-4 little guys. Some can fill the spots but don't for the region because those kids are not ready for the regional tourney.
I have not seen the numbers but in my opinion a team with 12 or more spots filled should be considered a full team. (Shoot back in the stone age we only had 12 wt. classes).
OK you asked for the numbers. I broke it down into regions. Number to the left are how many qualifiers and the number of teams that had that many qualifiers. (Example: Region 1 had 1 team with 14 wt classes filled. Region 6 had 5 teams with 11 wt classes filled)
R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 R7 R8
14 1 3 0 1 0 3 2 1
13 0 0 1 2 2 1 2 1
12 1 0 2 1 0 0 3 0
11 2 0 0 1 2 5 1 1
10 1 5 1 0 2 1 1 0
Since there are 101 teams that wrestled at regionals last year the math is easy.
11% of the teams sent full (14 wrestlers) to the regional tourney
20% sent 13 or more
27% sent 12 or more
50% of the teams had 10 or more wrestlers at the region.
4 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:OK you asked for the numbers. I broke it down into regions. Number to the left are how many qualifiers and the number of teams that had that many qualifiers. (Example: Region 1 had 1 team with 14 wt classes filled. Region 6 had 5 teams with 11 wt classes filled)
R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 R7 R8
14 1 3 0 1 0 3 2 1
13 0 0 1 2 2 1 2 1
12 1 0 2 1 0 0 3 0
11 2 0 0 1 2 5 1 1
10 1 5 1 0 2 1 1 0
Since there are 101 teams that wrestled at regionals last year the math is easy.
11% of the teams sent full (14 wrestlers) to the regional tourney
20% sent 13 or more
27% sent 12 or more
50% of the teams had 10 or more wrestlers at the region.
How has this number changed over time? How does this number compare to other states? How does this number compare to other states in regards to change over time.
Obviously I am not asking you to take time out of your life to dig up that information for me, given the time I'll probably just do it myself. Those are just the questions that immediately come to mind when I read that
6 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:OK you asked for the numbers. I broke it down into regions. Number to the left are how many qualifiers and the number of teams that had that many qualifiers. (Example: Region 1 had 1 team with 14 wt classes filled. Region 6 had 5 teams with 11 wt classes filled)
R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 R7 R8
14 1 3 0 1 0 3 2 1
13 0 0 1 2 2 1 2 1
12 1 0 2 1 0 0 3 0
11 2 0 0 1 2 5 1 1
10 1 5 1 0 2 1 1 0
Since there are 101 teams that wrestled at regionals last year the math is easy.
11% of the teams sent full (14 wrestlers) to the regional tourney
20% sent 13 or more
27% sent 12 or more
50% of the teams had 10 or more wrestlers at the region.
Good info GOO. And actually surprising. Half of teams with 10+ kids at region is much better than I expected. Like you said, a lot of teams have trouble finding the smallest and largest kids to fill those spots. Throw in the possibility of an injury taking another kid out of a lineup and like you also said 11-12 is a good solid lineup.
Scheduling is an interesting topic here. Asking parents to sit in a gym for anywhere from 7-11 hours for an individual tournament is a big ask. It's an even bigger ask when its every weekend from Dec-Feb. Parents drive opinions of their kids and also talk to other parents of prospective wrestlers.
Dual tournaments, 6 schools wrestling 4 different duals on a Saturday, etc. are the way to go. Doesn't have to be like that every weekend and certainly understand the importance of individually bracketed tournaments, but freeing up some time for kids to be kids on a Saturday every now and then can't do anything to hurt the sport.
5 hours ago, bestmistake33 said:Scheduling is an interesting topic here. Asking parents to sit in a gym for anywhere from 7-11 hours for an individual tournament is a big ask. It's an even bigger ask when its every weekend from Dec-Feb. Parents drive opinions of their kids and also talk to other parents of prospective wrestlers.
Dual tournaments, 6 schools wrestling 4 different duals on a Saturday, etc. are the way to go. Doesn't have to be like that every weekend and certainly understand the importance of individually bracketed tournaments, but freeing up some time for kids to be kids on a Saturday every now and then can't do anything to hurt the sport.
So I've been thinking the same thing for years, and this year I'm finally taking a chance and making changes.
This year we will be taking off 3 Saturdays during the season, four I'd you include the thanksgiving weekend which we usually don't compete. We will also only be practicing 4 days a week for a majority of the season.
My thinking behind it is that we will be healthier, less burned out, and in the end the overall result will be a better program result as a whole.
The grind is hard on everyone. Wrestlers, parents, and coaches. I can continue to push, grind everyday, matches every week, lift, and go year around, but what does it achieve? Sure there are the few that can handle this, but I've found that a majority cant. Even as a coach, it's become hard to do that.
I might be totally off and it might blow up in my face, but I'm willing to evolve and try new things. I want my team to be successful always, but more importantly I want to build good kids. I want them to enjoy wrestling, to love the sport like I do.
3 hours ago, coachteater said:
So I've been thinking the same thing for years, and this year I'm finally taking a chance and making changes.
This year we will be taking off 3 Saturdays during the season, four I'd you include the thanksgiving weekend which we usually don't compete. We will also only be practicing 4 days a week for a majority of the season.
My thinking behind it is that we will be healthier, less burned out, and in the end the overall result will be a better program result as a whole.
The grind is hard on everyone. Wrestlers, parents, and coaches. I can continue to push, grind everyday, matches every week, lift, and go year around, but what does it achieve? Sure there are the few that can handle this, but I've found that a majority cant. Even as a coach, it's become hard to do that.
I might be totally off and it might blow up in my face, but I'm willing to evolve and try new things. I want my team to be successful always, but more importantly I want to build good kids. I want them to enjoy wrestling, to love the sport like I do.
We've done the same thing with our middle school program. Staying closer to home, and a few 6 team duals rather than long tourney's every weekend. While we have been steadily growing, I really feel scheduling is what's pushing/keeping kids away. Hopefully getting even stronger at the level, will translate to more depth and better numbers at the high school level.
Great Topic and points from everyone.
Sorry to hear about Eastern, that program has been around for long time and has had some great kids come from there. Hopefully they get it back!
My two cents on this. I agree 100% that making it FUN is by far the most important thing. We have way too many parents living through their kids and pushing their kids to be this or that. Sometimes its the parents goals and how the parents feel and how they look when they can brag about what their child has done or accomplished. I've seen it first hand.
Yes, there are some kids that just enjoy it and want to put the time in because of THEIR GOALS, not their parents. I myself went through a time where my son wanted to put in the time and travel all year round. I loved it because I'm so passion about the sport. BUT, it also caused me to push him at times when he didn't want too. This is where, I became that parent and focused on what looked good about ME and didn't really hear my own son and what he wanted. Well, that has been the best lesson and very humbling for me as parent and a coach. My son has choose to play soccer the past three years and skip many wrestling off season workouts. SHOCKING-that he has enjoyed his wrestling seasons more now then in years past because not having to go through the grind all year long. Now, I'm not saying that training in the off season is bad, I'm just saying that it should be what the kids want to do and not what their parents are making them do. Placing at State or winning State or placing at top national events are great things, but to me its only worth it if the kid placed the pressure on themselves to achieve those goals and not the pressure of parents or coaches.
GOO, you made some great points. Kids will show up if they want too. Although I do get frustrated when I try to schedule things and only get 3-5 kids, knowing that there should be at least 10-15 kids there that aren't doing anything but sitting at home. But you can't make them come to workouts, its not about US as coaches or parents. Its about us giving them the opportunity to become better young men and women first then get better as athletes last.
I'm sure many may disagree with my thoughts on this, so be it. All I know is that my own kid is much happy now and enjoys wrestling way more with him having his time away in the off season to pursue other activities. He has said that he would like to "win state", but if it happens it will, if not, its just not meant to be. He tells me all the time that GOD has plans for him and that winning state may not be one of them! When its all done with, I want his memories to be that he enjoyed his last years of wrestling having "FUN" vs winning any State Title if he his miserable trying to do it or make his coaches or parents happy due to unwanted pressure add to him or any kid for that matter.
OK here you go. I could only go back to 2013. Here are the raw numbers. I'm tired you can come up with the figures. 
2017
R1(13) R2(14) R3(13) R4(12) R5(10) R6(12) R7(14) R8(13) Tot(101)
14 1 3 0 1 0 3 2 1 11
13 0 0 1 2 2 1 2 1 9
12 1 0 2 1 0 0 3 0 7
11 2 0 0 1 2 5 1 1 12
10 1 5 1 0 2 1 1 0 11
50
2016
R1(12) R2(14) R3(13) R4(12) R5(10) R6(12) R7(15) R8(14) Tot(102)
14 2 3 0 1 3 3 1 2 15
13 1 1 1 1 0 0 3 1 8
12 2 0 1 3 1 2 2 0 11
11 1 2 2 0 1 5 1 0 12
10 0 2 0 0 0 1 2 0 5
51
2015
R1(11) R2(13) R3(13) R4(12) R5(10) R6(12) R7(13) R8(13) Tot(97)
14 2 1 0 2 2 2 0 2 11
13 1 1 3 3 1 0 1 0 10
12 0 2 1 2 0 4 3 0 12
11 2 1 2 1 2 2 4 0 14
10 1 1 1 0 2 0 1 4 10
57
2014
R1(12) R2(14) R3(13) R4(11) R5(10) R6(12) R7(12) R8(13) Tot(97)
14 1 2 2 3 1 4 1 2 16
13 1 0 2 1 4 0 1 1 10
12 4 3 0 1 2 3 0 2 15
11 1 3 1 1 0 1 3 0 10
10 1 0 2 2 2 1 1 0 9
60
2013
R1(14) R2(12) R3(14) R4(7) R5(8) R6(13) R7(13) R8(12) Tot(93)
14 2 2 2 3 1 2 1 1 14
13 0 0 2 2 1 3 3 2 13
12 3 0 2 0 2 3 3 0 13
11 1 2 1 0 1 0 1 2 8
10 1 2 1 0 3 2 2 2 13
61
On 9/26/2017 at 11:29 AM, grappler-of-old said:GOO's wonderful raw data
Well I went and did the math and each one usually rounds up so that the percentage matches the number of teams since Kentucky has been hovering around 100 or so teams in the state, there are some exceptions when we start to get to the higher numbers near the tail end of the calculations. Now of course because of date limitations with track the data is incomplete, does NWCA scorebook even still exist? We are stuck in a situation where it's a lot harder to find data which is unfortunate because there appears to be a downward trend but I am of the school that you need at least a 10 year trend to make a statistic meaningful. So if someone has access to pre-2013 regional brackets or numbers we need those back to at least 2007
2017
11% of the teams sent full (14 wrestlers) to the regional tourney
20% sent 13 or more
27% sent 12 or more
39% sent 11 or more
50% of the teams had 10 or more wrestlers at the region.
2016
15% with full teams
21% 13+
31% 12+
43% 11+
50% 10+
2015
11% 14
22% 13+
34% 12+
48% 11+
59% 10+
2014
16% 14
27% 13+
42% 12+
53% 11+
62% 10+
2013
15% 14
28% 13+
43% 12+
52% 11+
66% 10+
So I graphed the limited data set we had and it came out to this. I made one graph for number of teams with full rosters at regionals and another graph for percentage of teams sending 10+ wrestlers to regionals. Then I just slapped on simple predictive linear trendlines
Now obviously these trend lines would be a lot more accurate with data going back to 2007
Here are some more raw numbers.
These are the participants in the regions by year.
R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 R7 R8 Total
2013 150 111 136 82 92 149 146 121 987
2014 128 140 126 115 119 137 119 109 993
2015 110 113 126 124 105 133 127 118 956
2016 111 136 102 106 98 140 142 109 944
2017 98 133 105 89 96 133 148 100 902
What are the chances we would ever be able to go to a model similar to NAIA where a couple extras (backups, jv, or whatever you want to call them) we able to enter the post season. This is one area where we definitely lose HS kids. Wrestling isn't a glamorous sport. Much less so when you aren't the starter. A ton of kids quit once they realize they won't have a varsity spot. If coaches were able to give a few of them the opportunity to compete in region and possibly qualify for state maybe we could keep a few more.
15 hours ago, FalconWrestling said:Well I went and did the math and each one usually rounds up so that the percentage matches the number of teams since Kentucky has been hovering around 100 or so teams in the state, there are some exceptions when we start to get to the higher numbers near the tail end of the calculations. Now of course because of date limitations with track the data is incomplete, does NWCA scorebook even still exist? We are stuck in a situation where it's a lot harder to find data which is unfortunate because there appears to be a downward trend but I am of the school that you need at least a 10 year trend to make a statistic meaningful. So if someone has access to pre-2013 regional brackets or numbers we need those back to at least 2007
201711% of the teams sent full (14 wrestlers) to the regional tourney
20% sent 13 or more
27% sent 12 or more
39% sent 11 or more
50% of the teams had 10 or more wrestlers at the region.
201615% with full teams
21% 13+
31% 12+
43% 11+
50% 10+
2015
11% 14
22% 13+
34% 12+
48% 11+
59% 10+
2014
16% 14
27% 13+
42% 12+
53% 11+
62% 10+
2013
15% 14
28% 13+
43% 12
52% 11+
66% 10+
So I graphed the limited data set we had and it came out to this. I made one graph for number of teams with full rosters at regionals and another graph for percentage of teams sending 10+ wrestlers to regionals. Then I just slapped on simple predictive linear trendlines
Now obviously these trend lines would be a lot more accurate with data going back to 2007
Go to KHSAA. It is there. i have looked at the older brackets in the last few years.
I'm not sure it is so much just competing in the region or state. It's being able to compete throughout the year. I think most of those same kids would stay out if they could compete each week with the rest of the varsity team, then realize that the best in each wt. class will compete in the region.
I would say that most schools can't field both a varsity and JV team. So those kids that are not on the 1st team are left sitting in the bleachers or at home most of the season.
5 minutes ago, halfhalfhalf said:
Go to KHSAA. It is there. i have looked at the older brackets in the last few years.
After 2013 the region brackets are not available. If so I could not access them.
30 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:I'm not sure it is so much just competing in the region or state. It's being able to compete throughout the year. I think most of those same kids would stay out if they could compete each week with the rest of the varsity team, then realize that the best in each wt. class will compete in the region.
I would say that most schools can't field both a varsity and JV team. So those kids that are not on the 1st team are left sitting in the bleachers or at home most of the season.
JV individual tournaments would probably be more realistic to host in order to get JV kids tournaments. The problem that you will run into is not having enough assistants to take kids to JV tournaments. This is where a strong youth program will help. Youth programs generate funds that can be used to give 'stipends' for assistant HS coaches. Schools rarely are willing to pay for more than one assistant. You just have to get creative.
How do youth programs generate funds?
Seems to me It increases the need for funds. Cost for tournaments, buses uniforms etc....
1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:Here are some more raw numbers.
These are the participants in the regions by year.
R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 R7 R8 Total
2013 150 111 136 82 92 149 146 121 987
2014 128 140 126 115 119 137 119 109 993
2015 110 113 126 124 105 133 127 118 956
2016 111 136 102 106 98 140 142 109 944
2017 98 133 105 89 96 133 148 100 902
I was debating about going through and recording how many teams are sending teams of five or less but raw region totals serve the same purpose
Here are charts showing changes in numbers for each of the regions plus a total at the end with trendlines included
I tried to play with the charts to make the vertical scale equal but excel wasn't playing with me on this matter. So please note that the scales aren't equal among the regions but the trend remains the same outside of some exceptions (Region 7 and Region 2). Like I said I wish I had pre-2013 data and of course it will be interesting to see how the data meets the trend line with the uniform change
So random thought. I know it would be hard to prove/track, but I have a theory. I know we have a decline in numbers, but what about other sports? So my guess is that even though it's not tracked other sports are having lower numbers as well. The reason why? One sport athletes. You may not notice as much in major sports, but I would bet other sports like wrestling are also struggling. I always have encouraged multi sport athletes, and hope others do as well. If not, it could be the downfall of smaller sports.
19 minutes ago, coachteater said:So random thought. I know it would be hard to prove/track, but I have a theory. I know we have a decline in numbers, but what about other sports? So my guess is that even though it's not tracked other sports are having lower numbers as well. The reason why? One sport athletes. You may not notice as much in major sports, but I would bet other sports like wrestling are also struggling. I always have encouraged multi sport athletes, and hope others do as well. If not, it could be the downfall of smaller sports.
http://www.nfhs.org/ParticipationStatics/PDF/2014-15_Participation_Survey_Results.pdf
From the NFHS, total numbers seem to be going up. Their format is terrible in measuring change over time so I'm still working on that especially in regards to break down by sport. The raw data is all at NFHS but it's a nightmare to turn into charts
Also however downvoted my chart dump be my guest but if you don't like bad data then do something about it.
I found this useful table on a lax site hence their numbers are bolded. Interesting to note that the wrestling population drop is recent and we have made gains since the early 2000's but it's been on a decline since 2012 nationwide. 2016 was the first year Cross Country passed Wrestling in participants.
| B O Y S - P A R T I C I P A T I O N | |||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Sport | Participants (Thousands) | % Change | |||||||
| 2010 | 2011 | 2012 | 2013 | 2014 | 2015 | 2016 |
15 16 |
01 16 |
|
| Football (11-player) | 1109.3 | 1108.4 | 1096.0 | 1086.6 | 1093.2 | 1083.6 | 1083.3 | 0.0% | 7.0% |
| Track & Field (outdoor) | 572.1 | 579.3 | 575.6 | 574.5 | 580.3 | 578.6 | 591.1 | 2.2% | 20.2% |
| Basketball | 540.2 | 545.8 | 535.3 | 538.7 | 541.1 | 541.5 | 546.4 | 0.9% | 1.2% |
| Baseball | 472.6 | 471.0 | 474.2 | 474.8 | 482.6 | 486.6 | 488.8 | 0.5% | 8.5% |
| Soccer | 391.8 | 398.4 | 411.8 | 411.0 | 417.4 | 432.6 | 440.3 | 1.8% | 32.3% |
| Wrestling | 272.9 | 273.7 | 272.1 | 270.2 | 269.5 | 258.2 | 250.7 | -2.9% | 2.3% |
| Cross Country | 239.6 | 246.9 | 248.5 | 249.2 | 252.5 | 251.0 | 257.7 | 2.7% | 36.8% |
| Tennis | 162.8 | 161.4 | 159.8 | 157.2 | 160.5 | 157.2 | 157.2 | 0.0% | 9.4% |
| Golf | 157.8 | 156.9 | 152.7 | 152.6 | 152.6 | 148.8 | 146.7 | -1.4% | -9.3% |
| Swimming & Diving | 131.4 | 133.9 | 133.8 | 138.2 | 138.4 | 137.1 | 133.5 | -2.6% | 50.3% |
| Lacrosse | 90.7 | 95.7 | 100.6 | 101.7 | 106.7 | 108.5 | 109.5 | 1.0% | 161.9% |
| Track & Field (indoor) | 67.7 | 70.3 | 69.4 | 78.7 | 73.7 | 75.2 | 76.7 | 2.0% | 51.3% |
| Volleyball | 50.5 | 50.0 | 49.5 | 50.4 | 52.1 | 54.5 | 55.4 | 1.6% | 39.4% |
| Ice Hockey | 36.5 | 36.9 | 35.7 | 35.2 | 35.4 | 35.9 | 35.2 | -2.0% | 6.2% |
| Bowling | 27.7 | 28.3 | 27.4 | 28.4 | 28.1 | 29.1 | 29.6 | 1.7% | 192.5% |
| Team Tennis | 28.9 | 28.4 | 36.2 | 33.0 | 30.5 | 25.0 | 25.5 | 2.1% | 112.8% |
On 9/29/2017 at 9:50 AM, grappler-of-old said:After 2013 the region brackets are not available. If so I could not access them.
That is new. I will go look again to see if I can find it. I saw something up to 1999.
They list the placers of each region only. Not the full brackets. So I can't count the number of kids entered in the tourney.
I probably have most of NKY district and regional tourneys going back through the 90's in my files. But man would that be a project. Not one that I am inclined to pursue. LOL.
22 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:They list the placers of each region only. Not the full brackets. So I can't count the number of kids entered in the tourney.
I probably have most of NKY district and regional tourneys going back through the 90's in my files. But man would that be a project. Not one that I am inclined to pursue. LOL.
lol. I went to look. They pulled it all down. Only thing I was able to find was the state tourney brackets. Oh well.
With Mike Clark leaving J-Town to go to Fairdale, it sounds like J-Town may get the ax as well. We have to work together to find coaches and ways to keep programs growing. We add one team but lose two in the process. I'm very concerned about wrestling in Jefferson County. We may lose two programs with rich tradition in J-Town and Eastern. And other high schools such as Ballard and Butler that do not have teams either. I think one issue is also the amount of paperwork required. A brand new head coach can easily want to give up with the paperwork involved and than trying to find time to actually coach.
Just a thought. Could this just be growing pains? With the increase of Ky wrestlers going to college to wrestle that has reduced the number of those who would become officials and coaches. I'm not sure of the numbers but how many younger coaches are there in Ky? We may not see an increase for another 5-10 years when those college wrestlers return to coach.
On 9/24/2017 at 0:33 AM, grappler-of-old said:One of the big problems is that sports are not for fun anymore.
Those kids that are just trying to have fun with any sport are shunned away. If your not trying to win a state title or national championship then these kids are not given the time of day. I know in my day (you know the stone age) there were many kids on our team that just wanted to have fun. They were satisfied with winning more than they lost. They were not going 24/7 365 days a year trying to be the best in the country or the state or even the wrestling room. However those kids were and are needed in our wrestling rooms. It gives those who just want to have fun something to do instead of running the streets, it also helps those that are trying to be the best in the country/state. Gives them some different competition in the wrestling room.
Other sports have an easier time because there kids can have pick up games whenever they feel the urge to. Basketball, baseball, football, soccer, all have the luxury of being able to wake up one day and say "I want to play a game of soccer" they go to the soccer field or backyard with a a few others and play. Then the next day or week they don't feel like playing they don't. During the season we can't have kids not coming to practice every day, but in the off-season we have to allow these kids to come when they get the urge, and not chastise them when they don't come for a couple of weeks in the summer. If we fill the kids needs, not the coaches/parents needs we can get these kids more interested in the sport. Then maybe they will show up more often in the off-season and love the sport more.
I hear so many coaches say "this kid is killing me. He can be so much better but does not give me 100% in the practice room" I usually say to them "What does he want from wrestling? does he want to be a state champion, or is he satisfied with his progress?" We as parents and coaches can't push every kid to be a state champion or national champion. We have to push them just a little farther than what they expect from themselves. Then when they reach their own goals most will move there goals to higher expectations and then parent s and coaches can push them a little bit harder. Some kids will just be satisfied with a 500 record. If that is what you have then foster that goal, push them to just be over 500 and not scold or scoff them when they don't want to be a state champion or national champion.
FUN FUN FUN that is the key. We all know you have more fun when you win, but NOT when someone is always telling you 'You can do better"
OK I have said enough. I will end this with my old disclaimer.
These are the opinions of GOO nothing more and nothing less. In the grand scheme of things it means very little and you can take them or leave them.
GOO OUT>
Nailed it. I agree.
1 hour ago, Nkawtg said:Why does wrestling start so early in Kentucky compared to other states?
OK you know me I need the data and stats so here they are.
Of all the surrounding states of KY
State--1st day of Practice----1st event date-----last day----length of season
KY----------------Oct 15------------Nov 20-----------Feb 17---------126
OH---------------Nov 10-----------Dec 1-------------Mar 10---------121
WV--------------Nov 13-----------Nov 29-----------Feb 24----------104
Tenn-----------Oct 30------------Nov 17------------Feb 17---------111
Mizz-----------Oct 30-----------Nov 17-------------Feb 17----------111
Ill--------------Nov 6--------------Nov 20------------Feb 24-----------111
Ind ------------Oct 30--------------Nov 13------------Feb 17--------111
We have a longer season than any of our surrounding states. The starting date will not change because that is the starting date for all our Winter sports.
That seems to be the only difference between the rest of the states. Our 1st event is only earlier than 2 of the 6 states. (OH and WV). Our ending date has no one earlier than ours.
4 hours ago, cmccoy said:With Mike Clark leaving J-Town to go to Fairdale, it sounds like J-Town may get the ax as well. We have to work together to find coaches and ways to keep programs growing. We add one team but lose two in the process. I'm very concerned about wrestling in Jefferson County. We may lose two programs with rich tradition in J-Town and Eastern. And other high schools such as Ballard and Butler that do not have teams either. I think one issue is also the amount of paperwork required. A brand new head coach can easily want to give up with the paperwork involved and than trying to find time to actually coach.
I can tell you that I tried to start a program at Butler but the athletic department had no interest. Jtown's days had been numbered for awhile, the AD had been anti-wrestling.
But yes on a whole wrestling in Jefferson County is not in a good situation and a lack of viable head coaches is something I consider to be part of the problem
GOO - not sure I understand the states who have first event only 2-3 weeks after first practice. That doesn't seem very logical. Our "season" being longer with more "preseason" practice time doesn't sound like a bad thing to me.
MIssouri's First date to compete is just based on eligible practice days. The true opening date usually is last week of November or first week of December. Missouri also has participation limits on their wrestlers which keep the season shortened into a span of about 6-8 weeks. 15 competitions which only 6 can be tournaments.
Just throwing it out there, but goo may be right how growth could actually be hurting high school coach numbers and ref numbers, but not just kids are wrestling in college.
With the expansion of middle school and youth, I think you are also thinning out the coaching pool for high school. There are many middle school and youth coaches who have an opportunity to coach that didn't use to be there. I see coaches who stay in the programs they wrestled for, but as youth and ms coaches now. In the past they would move on to open high school positions or try to start new programs to make themselves a position.
Hopefully some of these coaches get a couple years in and desire to move up. Start new programs and take over open positions.
I think the extra practice is OK. I do however think that the point system needs to be adjusted. I talked to an Ohio coach and told him we have 17 events. He said then a 2 day dual tourney which you could get 10 matches only counts as (1), then that means in theory you could have 170 matches in a season. We need to look at this.
While looking at some of the other states I noticed how they monitor the teams/wrestlers. Many seem to monitor the wrestler and dictate how many matches they are allowed in a year. Not the team but the individual wrestler.
We could put a match cap on individual kids. That could open up opportunities for jv kids to get some varsity action. But it could also increase the number of forfeits we see in dual events as a coach may sit kids out to save matches for bigger events.
I like what I saw in some states. They specify how many tournaments a team can compete in.
When I started coaching in Missouri the first thing I noticed was the limitations on competitions. It was just changed recently to allow a wrestler more than 50 matches only if they were receiving forfeits throughout the year. So a wrestler could be 56-0 going into districts but had received 6 forfeits during the year. Teams have began scheduling more dual tournaments or even 16 man pool tourneys. Allowing wrestlers to get the maximum amount of matches each day they wrestle.
I'm not sure I like the idea of limiting the number of matches per individual.
We have 11 Saturdays in our season. If you limited a wrestler to 8 tournaments and 8 Dual/Tri meets a year would be reasonable. I think. In theory you could get 5 matches each tourney (excluding 2 day tourneys) and 2 matches in Dual/Tri meets a year.
That would total about 56 matches a year. I would guess that each wrestler would average about 46 actual matches a year using this.
The 50 match limit was up until districts. Depending on the weight class usually determined if a wrestler was getting more forfeits. We have 6 tourneys, but no state dual tourney or qualifier. We are allowed to have 9 duals/tris/quads, as long as it doesn't get classified as a tourney. Most schools schedule quads as to up their numbers as best they can. So if I had scheduled 5 quads and 4 tris, this would give my kid 23 matches from duals alone. Then throw in my tourney schedule:
10 team dual tourney (1 day) 5 matches;
2-day tourney 3 possibly 4 matches first day and 4 matches second day. (20 Teams)
Two day invitational 4-5 matches first day, plus 4 matches second day (28 Teams)
One day invitational 5 matches (16 Teams)
Two Day Invitational 3-4 matches first day, 4 matches second day (20 Teams)
One Day 8 Team Dual Tourney 4 matches
Taking the most possible matches allowed for each day my kid would have 62 matches before district. So, we had to watch totals and make sure kids were getting accurate numbers and tracking forfeits. Still allows for a lot of wrestling in a short period of time but also can allow a wrestler to get a break if he needs one.
119Rider.
The only concern to me would be for those small teams. Those that fill 4-8 wt. classes. It seems they would have a hard time finding duals/Tri/Quad.
GOO, what would those limitations you mention (8 tournaments, 8 duals/tris) change for the vast majority of kids? My guess is a lot of teams are close to that already.
I would guess that most teams fill all 11 weekends with tourneys. That itself is 55 matches. With the added 7 open dates. Where most will wrestle at least twice that is a possible 69 matches. Using the same formula these kids average 56 matches.
I've talked to some about the limitations of the season. We talked about the 20 pts Ohio uses. I think many of the schools in Ky just try to "Keep up with the Jones'". And schedule as many as they can get.
This would force them to regulate the number of matches and probably reduce the number by 5-10 and more in some cases.
We wrestle a pretty aggressive competitive schedule. But our top end kids generally get about 50 per year (including the post season).