Here is a poll for you.
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Middle school Weight allowance.
Topic ID: 14123 | 57 Posts
Making the scratch weight twice...... Before receiving the 2 pound weight allowance seems fair. That shows that you made the scratch weight and you truly need the 2 pounds to stay in your weight class..... But this is like the price is right.... Come on down..... My son's weight class is going to be tough no matter what. He could possibly cut down a class.... But honestly I don't think he would want to. He would have to eat healthy .... His Knickname is Suge.... He likes sugar LOL...
Making a kid make weight twice (or whatever number you decide) won't change anything without a weight management program. If the kid is walking around 2 pounds over the next lower weight class, the only thing that would change is the kid would then cut into the lower weight sooner, rather than waiting for the allowance to arrive. And while a weight management program like the high school does would be great, it would greatly increase the cost and expense non-school teams (or school teams who don't have access to a trainer) would have to incur. Fat tests aren't free, and my thought is that it would drive some schools/clubs away from the sport at the middle school level.
There has been a poll for this at least once in the last few years, but I'm thinking it's more like 2 or 3 times. They were official polls that mattered. And the elimination of the 2 lb allowance was defeated each time. This isnt about cutting weight. That argument is just the catalest to try to make certain kids stay in the higher weight class away from other kids that want to win the state tournament. That has been the underlying factor every time it has been put on the ballot!!
This sort of certification process used to be in place many years ago. It doesn't change weight cutting at all. All it does is introduce additional administrative duties on coaches who now have to track weighins and documentation to prove a kid can compete at a weight. Every year we have coaches who can't simply complete the bylaw acknowledgement. Plus we all know certain coaches who we don't trust any farther than we can throw them regarding honestly meeting the certification requirements.
I've always said it is up to coaches and parents to be the adults and make sure kids are making good choices about weight no matter what age group we are talking about.
As vocal as Notorious has been on this, I'm beginning to think he's worried about a wrestler coming down after the allowance and possibly ruining the chances of his kid or one on his team. Soumds a lot like politics to me.
1 minute ago, REscalera said:As vocal as Notorious has been on this, I'm beginning to think he's worried about a wrestler coming down after the allowance and possibly ruining the chances of his kid or one on his team. Soumds a lot like politics to me.
I think Notorious is a middle school wrestler.
For real real? Haha! For his sake I hope not. If he would put forth half the effort to get better as he is trying to get it changed the 2lb allowance wouldn't matter come state tourney.
8 minutes ago, Chris Duke said:I think Notorious is a middle school wrestler.
Exactly. Focus on the wrestling and don't worry about who might be cutting a bunch of weight.
Sounds like you can't take being challenged? The poll is leaning in my favor? But by ALL means you all continue massaging each other's ego's! While the rest of us laugh at you! If you all put forth half the effort that you say you do? Why would you even want a 2LB laughable growth allowance?
6 minutes ago, Notorious said:Sounds like you can't take being challenged? The poll is leaning in my favor? But by ALL means you all continue massaging each other's ego's! While the rest of us laugh at you! If you all put forth half the effort that you say you do? Why would you even want a 2LB laughable growth allowance?
Are you serious? I truly couldn't care less about a 2 lb allowance. My kid has been weighing in anywhere from 3-6 pounds under his weight class of 86 all season.
As as for putting forth effort to help our state and wrestlers improve, you have no clue.
I can see this little group of parents face TURNING RED! As the Poll doesn't favor there opinion! It's okay. Eventually KY will get it right.
On December 14, 2017 at 9:05 PM, Chris Duke said:I think Notorious is a middle school wrestler.
Well since you do the Rankings. Put me at 1st at 190 then. I just brought up a valid issue? You do a decent job with the rankings. For the information you can get your hands on. But I see you got JOKES!
On December 14, 2017 at 11:38 PM, Ranger123 said:Are you serious? I truly couldn't care less about a 2 lb allowance. My kid has been weighing in anywhere from 3-6 pounds under his weight class of 86 all season.
As as for putting forth effort to help our state and wrestlers improve, you have no clue.
Well maybe that's the PROBLEM Ranger? Nobody has a clue of how we are making ALL of KY wrestling better! And not just an area of Kentucky! Maybe ask for help, tell parents, coaches, what you need from us? Maybe tell us on the forum? Have a vote? Let programs have a VOICE? Or I guess you could just keep it a secret. I'm SURE you do a lot of work for KY wrestling! But just telling me I don't have a CLUE doesn't answer anything really?
On December 14, 2017 at 9:02 PM, REscalera said:As vocal as Notorious has been on this, I'm beginning to think he's worried about a wrestler coming down after the allowance and possibly ruining the chances of his kid or one on his team. Soumds a lot like politics to me.
I could guess every weight classes champion right now. I would Probably be about 95% accurate! Everyone already knows who going to win every weight.
This has nothing to do with winning a championship. But everything to do with a "Growth " allowance that is not needed. If the allowance is kept. In the future I would hope it would be enforced differently. That is all.
On December 13, 2017 at 6:06 PM, CoachC said:There has been a poll for this at least once in the last few years, but I'm thinking it's more like 2 or 3 times. They were official polls that mattered. And the elimination of the 2 lb allowance was defeated each time. This isnt about cutting weight. That argument is just the catalest to try to make certain kids stay in the higher weight class away from other kids that want to win the state tournament. That has been the underlying factor every time it has been put on the ballot!!
Who votes to allow the 2LB allowance? When was the last vote? Does the STATE of Kentucky have by laws we follow? Or do coaches vote? Or the school system? Is there anywhere we can see how the vote was done? And how close it was to being terminated? I would be interested in seeing how this 2LB allowance was ment to work and who passed it?
I can promise you Ranger has done a ton and continues to do a lot for this state. I think he knows what he is doing helped his kid get to Cornell lol..
28 minutes ago, Notorious said:I could guess every weight classes champion right now. I would Probably be about 95% accurate! Everyone already knows who going to win every weight.
This has nothing to do with winning a championship. But everything to do with a "Growth " allowance that is not needed. If the allowance is kept. In the future I would hope it would be enforced differently. That is all.
You could guess every champion at every weight... ? lol I like this guys ridiculous banter its fun overall seems positive.. lol alright give me those high school and middle school State Champ picks...
Congrats for getting into Cornell. Glad his kid made it. Well deserved. I hope he represents KY to the fullest! I'm a fan of Cornell now!
I would just like to know about the 2Lb issue. How it was passed? Who passed it? Was it voted in? Last time it was voted on? Was it voted by the coaches? The State? School system? How many people approved the allowance? This is turning into an argument? That's not what this question was about! But when you have the people who run this FORUM making insults about me being in middle school. It's kinda hard to respect anything they say. I would just like an answer from whoever runs this forum. It went from a conversation. To now it's a problem. I would like to get more information on this topic.
I'm indifferent on the allowance if it's there fine if not fine. I do know kids do grow and for that reason I understand it being in place and honestly I don't really think there is much "weight cutting" going on. I had a kid who weighed 108 at the beginning of the middle school season last year and he was in the state finals at 102. I can promise you it wasn't "weight cutting" he just chose to stop drinking sodas started eating slightly smarter and busted his butt in practice and that where he ended up. And because of those smarter eating habits and hard work he got to get beat up on by Rangers 102 pounder in the Middle school state finals lol.
Sounds like you have a HAMMER I understand what you mean. I just would like some answers to the rule. Since we couldn't be adults about it and just take a poll. I think I'd rather have ALL the information. So the wrestling community can understand how it was passed and by who.
And overall I honestly don't think there is much or any weight cutting going on at the middle school or youth level in KY most halfway decent coaches realize its horrible for the kid and burns them out most coaches in middle school or youth if there is any weight loss going on it because they are overall just encouraging these k8ds to be healthier not saying that is always the case but I do believe it is most of the time.
On December 14, 2017 at 0:43 AM, tja said:You could guess every champion at every weight... ? lol I like this guys ridiculous banter its fun overall seems positive.. lol alright give me those high school and middle school State Champ picks...
I will contact the representatives of KY wrestling myself. This forum is useless.
1 minute ago, Notorious said:Sounds like you have a HAMMER I understand what you mean. I just would like some answers to the rule. Since we couldn't be adults about it and just take a poll. I think I'd rather have ALL the information. So the wrestling community can understand how it was passed and by who.
Long way away from being a hammer. And lol its banter don't take it personal you do slightly sound like a kid or parent who is worried about someone dropping. Overrall like I said don't think the allowance is that big of a deal one way or the other. Focusing on just wrestling period regardless the weight class or weight allowance is probably a much better productive way of thinking
On December 14, 2017 at 1:03 AM, tja said:Long way away from being a hammer. And lol its banter don't take it personal you do slightly sound like a kid or parent who is worried about someone dropping. Overrall like I said don't think the allowance is that big of a deal one way or the other. Focusing on just wrestling period regardless the weight class or weight allowance is probably a much better productive way of thinking
I'm not wrestling. I can focus on the rules. But thanks for the advice.
2 minutes ago, Notorious said:I will contact the representatives of KY wrestling myself. This forum is useless.
It's literally a public forum no decisions are made here. That's what those representatives will tell you they will also tell you collectively coaches have made a decision on the 2 pound allowance.
On December 14, 2017 at 1:06 AM, tja said:It's literally a public forum no decisions are made here. That's what those representatives will tell you they will also tell you collectively coaches have made a decision on the 2 pound allowance.
That's what I would like to know. How many coaches decided for ALL of KY.
70 Vega
75 Spalding
80 Rowdy Benner
86 Moore
92 Eckman
98 Chapman
105 Thorton
113 Bean
121 Reece
130 Blue
140 Caleb
152 Duke
168 Braydon
190 Paxton
240 Walhe
That is your KY champions.
I would like to see Moore win 92 . He could win 92 and possibly 98.
6 hours ago, Notorious said:This is turning into an argument? That's not what this question was about! B
I believe you turned it into an arguement by arguing against anything anyone would say in favor of the 2lb allowance and supporting everything anyone said that was against the 2lb allowance.
6 hours ago, Notorious said:That's what I would like to know. How many coaches decided for ALL of KY.
If you really want know, yes coaches decided. I’ve been involved in Middle School wrestling and going to meetings for the last 6 years. And this issue got voted on at least 3 different times over those 6 years. I honestly can’t remember how’s my coaches voted, but I do know many coaches don’t bother showing up to vote. This issue has been beaten like a dead horse over the last close to a decade. The two pound allowance won’t stop weight cutting. And without a weight management system, any rule about minimum weight classes a wrestler is allowed to wrestle in, or number of times a wrestler must make weight for the post season, is completely toothless, and could be penciled whipped into uselessness as it often is now at the high school level. Quite honestly I’m not all that concerned about the kid that weighs 107 and wrestles 113 all year but drops to 105 after the allowance he wants to eat like a normal human.
It sounds like your issue is with the process and the people in charge. I can tell you the board busts their tail to make things better for this sport. And mostly, they get very little help while doing it because it’s only a handful of coaches across the state that participate in the meetings. They would gladly take the help from anyone willing to chip in.
As I stated the other day. Doing away with the 2lb allowance will not protect kids from themselves or over zealous coaches,in fact that just adds to the amount of cut weight. I know I can feel confident is saying the majority of coaches in Kentucky allow moderate cutting but not drastic cutting. Unfortunately you will have those who allow and even push it. When I wrestled in the 80's it was standard practice to cut 5 lbs overnight just to make weight, that our little friend is why the two point allowance is a good thing. Many a wrestler in the 80's would starve themselves for the day or 2 prior to a big meet then work off 5 plus pounds in a morning before the weigh in. Now Notorious which would you prefer?
I’d argue that forcing kids to make scratch twice would encourage more weight cutting than less. I know of many kids that naturally weighed about 2 LBs above a weight class and just wrestled up all season until the allowance went into affect. If they were forced to make scratch, believe me most would have; hence, weight cutting.
I think having something similar to HS’s weight management program is the only answer if the goal is to reduce weight cutting. Obviously, there are cost and administrative issues that comes w/ that idea.
On a side note, I think adding a flat 2 LB allowance to MS weight classes is part of the problem. 2 LB’s is a lot for a 70 LB weight class...not so much for HS weight classes. If done correctly, weight allowances should be a flat % increase. Not sure who was the brainiac who started that trend.
58 minutes ago, MLee said:
On a side note, I think adding a flat 2 LB allowance to MS weight classes is part of the problem. 2 LB’s is a lot for a 70 LB weight class...not so much for HS weight classes. If done correctly, weight allowances should be a flat % increase. Not sure who was the brainiac who started that trend.
This is a great thought. Seems logical that % of weight gain for lighter kids would be greater. However I'm not sure. The number of calories needed for weight gain is the same regardless of body mass. Do lighter kids grow slower than heavier kids? I have no idea.
OK now my head hurts. Kind of like thinking about time travel.
I guess I am at a loss for why no 2 pound allowance would force kids to cut to “scratch” weight in youth and middle school. Just wrestle the next weight up. I cannot say enough about how Coach Carr Sr. and Jr. have helped my son grow as a wrestler and a person since moving here. I love watching wrestling in Kentucky, but let’s be honest, if you need to cut weight to be competitive in middle school or youth you should be spending your time working on technique rather than than skipping meals and jumping rope to make weight. It will catch up to you in high school and if you wrestle outside the state. Now is the time for these kids to build a foundation, wins will come.
I'm just a newbie, I wrestled back in the 80's. Fast forward to today, I have a son that is wrestling now. Yes there is still cutting, yes you will have a few that are extreme, yes it happens, its wrestling, but over all its better than it used to be.
Forcing a scratch weigh in is promoting early season cutting. Plain and simple.
I can tell you that off season training is available, we wrestled all summer, and Ranger123 helped and coached my son and all the others. My son is not a hammer, only a 2 season kid, and it was nice to see Ranger123 coach/teach/train/encourage him no differently than any other kid. This was 3/4 days a week, not close to his house, not close to our house, not just his team, etc... his dedication and time spent towards making KY kids better is unquestionable.
We found this to be the case with every coach we had at this club. I've heard great thing about several other off season clubs in KY as well. Instead of focusing on weight and the 2 pounds, I would recommend focusing on technique, getting extra time on the mat, and the 2 pounds wont make a difference.
This is a problem we shouldn't expect coaches like the Carr's and Ranger to solve. Unfortunately they can only do so much.
As long as there is an urge to avoid a better kid, increase your chances to medal in a specific tournament, or a need to fill a lineup spot, there will always be weight cutting. It's inevitable. Some kids might be faced w/ those urges early in their career, some might have to deal w/it in college, but there will be a time when almost all wrestlers will consider cutting weight.
That is why it is so important to get the rules and regulations right. To protect the kids from an over-zealous parent, ultra competitive coach, and even themselves. A 2 LB weight allowance or "make them make scratch twice" doesn't help at all. The notion that it does is almost laughable.
Again, create a weight management program for MS kids. If the board makes it mandatory to participate down state, it will get done and paid for somehow.
9 hours ago, DocG said:I guess I am at a loss for why no 2 pound allowance would force kids to cut to “scratch” weight in youth and middle school. Just wrestle the next weight up. I cannot say enough about how Coach Carr Sr. and Jr. have helped my son grow as a wrestler and a person since moving here. I love watching wrestling in Kentucky, but let’s be honest, if you need to cut weight to be competitive in middle school or youth you should be spending your time working on technique rather than than skipping meals and jumping rope to make weight. It will catch up to you in high school and if you wrestle outside the state. Now is the time for these kids to build a foundation, wins will come.
I never understood the 2 lb allowance anyway. Just have set weight classes. If you grow, you simply move up a weight class.
Michael Barren is the man to contact about KY wrestling.
looking at the rankings. There are a couple of weight classes that are flat outloaded and will be fun to watch.
Lot of passion in this topic.
remember to just have fun. Success will come if you are having fun.
1 hour ago, Bond James Bond said:Michael Barren is the man to contact about KY wrestling
Yes he is the Commissioner for wrestling, but not a wrestler or someone with a wrestling background.
The allowance for High school was set by the NFHS, more specifically the board that runs wrestling through NFHS.
1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:Yes he is the Commissioner for wrestling, but not a wrestler or someone with a wrestling background.
The allowance for High school was set by the NFHS, more specifically the board that runs wrestling through NFHS.
Exactly. Not the right person to get background information from.
8 hours ago, MLee said:This is a problem we shouldn't expect coaches like the Carr's and Ranger to solve. Unfortunately they can only do so much.
As long as there is an urge to avoid a better kid, increase your chances to medal in a specific tournament, or a need to fill a lineup spot, there will always be weight cutting. It's inevitable. Some kids might be faced w/ those urges early in their career, some might have to deal w/it in college, but there will be a time when almost all wrestlers will consider cutting weight.
That is why it is so important to get the rules and regulations right. To protect the kids from an over-zealous parent, ultra competitive coach, and even themselves. A 2 LB weight allowance or "make them make scratch twice" doesn't help at all. The notion that it does is almost laughable.
Again, create a weight management program for MS kids. If the board makes it mandatory to participate down state, it will get done and paid for somehow.
Very good idea MLee. Roth and I pushed it back when we were on the board. Actually used our MS teams as test cases. The NWCA allowed us to run a pilot and we used a similar process as OH where you perform the minimum weight test (hydration and body fat) but do not plug in each weigh in. Unfortunately not many others were on our side to make it happen for the entire state.
I would believe that most of the middle school teams (even most clubs) could piggy back on the high school they feed. Cost would be nil for most.
On December 15, 2017 at 9:36 PM, Ranger123 said:Exactly. Not the right person to get background information from.
I will be sure to tell him that.
32 minutes ago, Bond James Bond said:I will be sure to tell him that.
Ok. Your attempt to impress me is quite unsuccessful. One of the problems with KY wrestling is people with no understanding of the sport trying to "fix" it.
On 12/14/2017 at 1:07 AM, Notorious said:That's what I would like to know. How many coaches decided for ALL of KY.
The amount of coaches who decide these things varies. If at a vote there are 10 coaches then 10 decide. On the other hand if there are 80 coaches in attendance then 80 decide.
2 minutes ago, Braves coach said:Not true. 1 vote per team. Ryle can't bring ten coaches to swing a vote.
We just bring the Northern Kentucky mafia and call Union when we need backup.
38 minutes ago, Chris Duke said:We just bring the Northern Kentucky mafia and call Union when we need backup.
3 hours ago, Chris Duke said:We just bring the Northern Kentucky mafia and call Union when we need backup.
Watch out our "ya'll be sleepin with the feeshes"
On 12/16/2017 at 7:40 PM, Braves coach said:Not true. 1 vote per team. Ryle can't bring ten coaches to swing a vote.
True I just took it for granted that was implied. Don't Forget Coach C,because nobody argues with The Man The Myth and The Legend!
On 12/16/2017 at 7:43 PM, Chris Duke said:We just bring the Northern Kentucky mafia and call Union when we need backup.
On 12/16/2017 at 7:40 PM, Braves coach said:Not true. 1 vote per team. Ryle can't bring ten coaches to swing a vote.