Are you serious?  if you make middle school state as a 5th or 6th grader you get punished and can't wrestle youth?  I'm not sure how this helps promote or grow the sport way to take a huge step back Kentucky.  

https://cdn4.sportngin.com/attachments/document/0136/1837/BYLAWS_of_the_KENTUCKY_FOLKSTYLE_WRESTLING_COMMITTEE.pdf

B. Every wrestler is required to have competed in a KFWC sanctioned regional tournament in order to participate in the Youth State Tournament. Additionally, any wrestler that participates (excludes alternates who do not make it into the tournament) in the KFWC Middle School State Tournament cannot wrestle in the KFWC Youth State Tournament.

This rule absolutely helps our growth. For years we have had middle school qualifiers and placers beating kids at the youth level. Why? It makes zero since. If these kids have already had success at a higher level, why would we let them regress to a lower age level. Obviously if they are qualifying for the middle school State Tournament, they are not being challenged at the youth level regularly. 10 years ago, I may have agreed with your statement. But we are growing! These are good problems! Eventually, youth State has to have a qualifier. Eventually, Middle School has to have a cutoff age wiseS Eventually, we will reach the competitive level of other states. 

This really affects the lower weights 70/75.  I see youth kids beat middle school qualifiers every year.  There is no reason to stop a 5th or 6th grader from wrestling youth.  All we are doing is keeping our above average 5th or 6th grader from wrestling middle school.     

How does it help growth? I always found that argument silly.  Is there any evidence that restricting kids from wrestling a single tournament increases participation?  Just the notion seems ridiculous.

If you don’t like it because it seems unfair, then fine. But like Duke mentioned, don’t have the lighter weight classes. How many 70 # MS kids do we have in the whole state? I’m not sure we could fill an 8 man bracket. 

This is a dead horse.

Matt Lee and I tried to change this when we headed up the youth.  It was voted down immediately.  It is truly painful to watch people justify why an age appropriate child can't compete at every level.

So your saying a young 5th or 6th grader from a region with small participation numbers, makes the top 4 in their region and just qualifies, now is disqualified from the youth tournament that he actually is more prepared for. 

OR

A youth that puts in the extra work to become a solid wrestler, now is disqualified from competing at the youth state because the just qualified for a MS State. 

OR

A solid elite wrestler that wants to compete Nationally and wants to wrestle in the Elementary State Tournament BUT because Tulsa Nationals is the same weekend  as the manadatory Regional tournament that he has to weigh in for, but doesn’t even need to compete in to qualify for the State Tourney, cannot compete in his state tournament

All because some coach Dad thinks that by eliminating good kids from the elementary State tournament is a good idea!??

Nike Man, please explain how these scenerios are great for our sport, these kids or making our competition better?

Look guys, I don’t have a dog in the fight. I have simply just been involved for a long time. I have seen growth throughout the state and I am proud of that. We (KY), do a lot of bickering back and forth for the wrong reasons. We are lucky to allow youth to wrestle middle school and middle school to wrestle high school. I don’t for a second take what these kids have accomplished lightly. All I am saying is, why would you as a coach or parent want a kid that has had success on a higher level, drop down to dominate a lower level. Did H. Courtney, C. Lewis, C. Yost, etc. drop down their 8th grade year to win a middle school State Championship? Of course not. What does that prove when you have already proved that you can go on a higher lever? Does this not cross over into the youth and middle school level too? I agree that just simply qualifying for the Middle School State Tournament shouldn’t necessarily disqualify you. Placers seem reasonable. If I am “wrong”, that’s ok. It wouldn’t be the first time. Haha. I am just expressing my opinion and how we advise our kids. Just because someone has an opinion that’s different than yours doesn’t mean that they are wrong, just means they have an opinion that you disagree with. If we all thought the same way, we’d all be robots. Right?

Are we really talking about this again?  I always thought the new rule was silly.  You are basically punishing a kid for the fruits of their labor.  Not letting a kid wrestle in a tournament with the same weight/age kids as them is crazy.  You are basically punishing a kid because he is good.  Nobody has a problem with a middle school kid wrestling in the middle school state tournament and then letting that same kid compete at high school regionals the following weekend.  Growth seems to be the topic that we all want to talk about.

I say let a kid get as many matches he can as a elementary/middle school wrestler and watch the growth happen.  At the end of the day the youth/middle school title doesn't mean that much, but when you are in the moment thats all that matters.  As a state we will never all agree on this topic.  The end result in my opinion is that we punish kids for their success by not letting them compete.

Maybe the fact that this becomes an issue every year is an indicator that something is wrong. Nobody is trying to punish a kid. But we shouldn’t be trying to coddle one either. So maybe we should make elementary, middle school and high school age kids definitive? 

Youth State Tournament eligibility grades K-5

Middle School State eligibility grades 6-8

High School State eligibility grades 9-12

If people don’t like grade requirements, maybe we should go to USA age requirements. Wrestle your age division and that’s all. Too many options for parents and coaches. Make age, grade, and weight definitive. No percents on weight. Make a weight class. But that’s a whole other ball of wax.

1 hour ago, Nike Man said:

Look guys, I don’t have a dog in the fight. I have simply just been involved for a long time. I have seen growth throughout the state and I am proud of that. We (KY), do a lot of bickering back and forth for the wrong reasons. We are lucky to allow youth to wrestle middle school and middle school to wrestle high school. I don’t for a second take what these kids have accomplished lightly. All I am saying is, why would you as a coach or parent want a kid that has had success on a higher level, drop down to dominate a lower level. Did H. Courtney, C. Lewis, C. Yost, etc. drop down their 8th grade year to win a middle school State Championship? Of course not. What does that prove when you have already proved that you can go on a higher lever? Does this not cross over into the youth and middle school level too? I agree that just simply qualifying for the Middle School State Tournament shouldn’t necessarily disqualify you. Placers seem reasonable. If I am “wrong”, that’s ok. It wouldn’t be the first time. Haha. I am just expressing my opinion and how we advise our kids. Just because someone has an opinion that’s different than yours doesn’t mean that they are wrong, just means they have an opinion that you disagree with. If we all thought the same way, we’d all be robots. Right?

3 hours ago, Nike Man said:

This rule absolutely helps our growth. For years we have had middle school qualifiers and placers beating kids at the youth level. Why? It makes zero since. If these kids have already had success at a higher level, why would we let them regress to a lower age level. Obviously if they are qualifying for the middle school State Tournament, they are not being challenged at the youth level regularly. 10 years ago, I may have agreed with your statement. But we are growing! These are good problems! Eventually, youth State has to have a qualifier. Eventually, Middle School has to have a cutoff age wiseS Eventually, we will reach the competitive level of other states. 

Referencing super stud HS kids isn’t a fair comparison.

We’ll probably see a 4th grader go 0-2 in the MS State tournament this year. That kid won’t be permitted to wrestle in the Youth state tournament. Does that seem right to you? 

MLee, the first quote of mine that you used clearly stated that, “I agree that just simply qualifying for the Middle School State Tournament shouldn’t necessarily disqualify you. Placers seem reasonable.” 

Does that seem right to me, yes.

Yes,  Dutch I brought it up only because I didn't see the rule change.  When it was top 4 I didn't agree with it but it seemed like a good compromise.  Two years later it's placers.  Now if you qualify, REALLY just qualifying will eliminate a kid from wrestling with kids his age.  I'm just not sure how this promotes growth.  

When you watch kids bust their tails all year and they have to choose between Youth and Middle School I doesn't make sense to me.  We have 2 kids that will not compete in the Middle School tournament and wrestle in a watered down Youth State because of this.  Both kids would most likely go 1-2 or maybe 2-2 in the Middle School Tournament.  How are we growing by making these kids choose?  By making teams and parents choose we are watering down both tournaments.  

8 hours ago, Nike Man said:

Maybe the fact that this becomes an issue every year is an indicator that something is wrong. Nobody is trying to punish a kid. But we shouldn’t be trying to coddle one either. So maybe we should make elementary, middle school and high school age kids definitive? 

Youth State Tournament eligibility grades K-5

Middle School State eligibility grades 6-8

High School State eligibility grades 9-12

If people don’t like grade requirements, maybe we should go to USA age requirements. Wrestle your age division and that’s all. Too many options for parents and coaches. Make age, grade, and weight definitive. No percents on weight. Make a weight class. But that’s a whole other ball of wax.

Then you won’t have enough kids to fill line ups on High School or Middle School teams. I do have a dog in this fight and have for years. My son has been one of those kids eliminated by the rules created in the past. Worked hard enough in the off season and traveled to train and compete outside Kentucky during the summers. He, as a 4th and 5th grader, “qualified” but was never big enough to beat the older more experienced “true” middle schoolers at 70 lbs. BUT he competed and tried and failed( GOOD LESSONS TO LEARN with no CODDLE)  So with this new rule, he would have been disqualified as a 4th and 5th grader from competing at youth state. I’m glad he wasn’t eliminated because he got to enjoy the fruits of his labor and competed both years and won youth state those 2 years. By these new standards, he goes 1-2 as a 4th grader and places 5th as a 5th grader. Hardly the results worth keeping him out of a youth state that only has 1000 participants total. (I know these are true numbers because I’ve help run this tournament the last 9 years) You used Yost and Courtney as examples of choosing not to go back and compete on a younger level. That’s great they had the choice. Now we’ve taken those choices away from kids that want to get better and compete on 2 levels. We’re not Ohio and PA. And won’t be, we’re Kentucky and we need to do whatever we can to grow the numbers and keep kids excited about this sport. All this rule did was eliminate kids from competing. 

8 hours ago, Nike Man said:

MLee, the first quote of mine that you used clearly stated that, “I agree that just simply qualifying for the Middle School State Tournament shouldn’t necessarily disqualify you. Placers seem reasonable.” 

Does that seem right to me, yes.

Sorry, I couldn't read past that "this rule absolutely helps our growth" statement.  

This rule has my son,who is a young 6th grader wrestling a middle weight, worried about not being able to wrestle at youth if he has a good day at regionals. By a good day I mean, He is not going to win the tournament by a long shot,but if gets a good draw and wrestles his tail off  like he's been training to do, might slide into the top 4. If this happens he will likely go 0-2 maybe 1-2 in state tournament. So now what he's thinking is maybe he takes 5th and gets lucky enough to capitalize on someone else's misfortune and gets to wrestle in both state tournaments.  Any rule that forces a kid into thinking like that is stupid.

Terrible rule change.  This rule in no way is helping to promote wrestling in Kentucky.  

I took a quick look at last year's 70 lb MS bracket.  I found 5 kids that qualified for MS State and wrestled in the Youth State Tournament (may have missed others).  Here is how they placed in their Youth State weight classes: 1, 2, 2, 3, DNP.  Does that look like they "dominated" the youth tournament?  Absolutely not.  Some of those losses came by youth kids w/ no MS experience.

The notion that they have "graduated" from youth by qualifying for the MS State tournament is absolutely asinine.    

Here is the best example I can give, Have a 7th grader that just started wrestling last year. He’s a 500 wrestler meaning he is 15/15, probably going to place 4th in middle school Region. And is youth eligible according to our bylaws. Going to get killed at state once the tougher kids from the rest of the regions combine at state. And it would benefit him as far as self confidence and “mat time” to wrestle youth state. But unfortunately he won’t have that opportunity. I personally think that’s a better example then “the hammers” not being able to wrestle youth state. That’s the definition of growing our youth. Just my 2 cents

I agree with the rule being bad. I disagreed with it and voted against the rule. However, it was my vote and two (2) other votes against it. It is said every year we need Coaches or Team Representatives to attend the Spring and Fall meetings. Even if it seems trivial to do so. Make your voice heard!!! It has been brought up about using some sort of conference call system so more people can be apart of it, but until that happens, we need people to be there.

What's the current age limit for youth wrestling? Didn't we extend it to basically allow 8th graders to wrestle at Youth State last year or the year prior? 

13

5 hours ago, Chris Duke said:

Yes,  Dutch I brought it up only because I didn't see the rule change.  When it was top 4 I didn't agree with it but it seemed like a good compromise.  Two years later it's placers.  Now if you qualify, REALLY just qualifying will eliminate a kid from wrestling with kids his age.  I'm just not sure how this promotes growth.  

When you watch kids bust their tails all year and they have to choose between Youth and Middle School I doesn't make sense to me.  We have 2 kids that will not compete in the Middle School tournament and wrestle in a watered down Youth State because of this.  Both kids would most likely go 1-2 or maybe 2-2 in the Middle School Tournament.  How are we growing by making these kids choose?  By making teams and parents choose we are watering down both tournaments.  

I didn't realize that it changed from top 4 to state placers.  WOW!!.  What will they do next?  If you wrestled one match at middle school you are disqualified from participating in youth?  Once again that is why we have ages and weights.  I remember when my son started wrestling youth tournaments.  One year he had Derek Wiley in his bracket at youth state.  Derek beat him like a drum.  I remember looking over at his coach and he said now you can pin him.  It felt like an emperor giving the thumbs down to the gladiator in the arena.    

My son was fairly new to wrestling and Derek was already wrestling middle school and was light years ahead other kids his age.   The reason I tell this story is that was probably the best thing that could of happened to my son at the time.  It really made him understand that you can work that much harder and compete with those elite kids.  Losses are a good thing in my opinion.  My son could probably tell you more about losses than wins.  The reason is you learn from losses because of the pain associated with those losses. 

We will never agree on this topic as a state, but I would hope we would reconsider not watering down the youth state tournament anymore than it already has been.  Maybe we should just give all the kids a participation medal so they don't quit wrestling if they lose.  

Here is a funny commercial that goes perfectly with this topic:

AHHH I love that commercial. One of my favorite of all time. 

2 hours ago, Ghost76 said:

I agree with the rule being bad. I disagreed with it and voted against the rule. However, it was my vote and two (2) other votes against it. It is said every year we need Coaches or Team Representatives to attend the Spring and Fall meetings. Even if it seems trivial to do so. Make your voice heard!!! It has been brought up about using some sort of conference call system so more people can be apart of it, but until that happens, we need people to be there.

Then it needs to be used this year. We’ve talked about it every year at these meetings and it never happens. Only a handful can get together during the summer. A couple years ago we had all the coaches in one room at Louisville Downtown. That seemed to be the most convenient for everyone. Maybe that’s when we have a one hour vote after posting the issues online and through emails that are up for vote a month or 2 prior to tourney weekend. As for now, what can we do to help these kids out before the weekend?

55 minutes ago, gameface said:

Then it needs to be used this year. We’ve talked about it every year at these meetings and it never happens. Only a handful can get together during the summer. A couple years ago we had all the coaches in one room at Louisville Downtown. That seemed to be the most convenient for everyone. Maybe that’s when we have a one hour vote after posting the issues online and through emails that are up for vote a month or 2 prior to tourney weekend. As for now, what can we do to help these kids out before the weekend?

It's 2018... we can't send out an email and vote online? There are tons of survey software out there we could use. Create the survey/poll and send the link out.

This goes back to them eliminating districts, which is another topic that needs to be discussed... but I hear it now "you should've come to the meetings".

We barely can get all the high school coaches to show up for the HS Coaches Clinic... what makes you think we're going to get all of the youth and ms coaches (who mostly volunteer or are paid very little) to show up to a meeting in the fall and/or spring? 

I personally think that if you place at the middle school State Tournament you should not be able to wrestle in the Youth State Tournament! ..

Top 6 Wrestlers at State, Who medal in his or her perspective weight should be ineligible. .

But if you DON'T medal. ... I think you should be allowed to participate in Both Youth and Middle School State Tournaments!

Curious if there is NO school all week.... Will Middle School Regions offer an additional pound. 

If they do give a extra pound due to weather? 

Would that extra pound carry over to State? 

1 hour ago, Bond James Bond said:

I personally think that if you place at the middle school State Tournament you should not be able to wrestle in the Youth State Tournament! ..

Top 6 Wrestlers at State, Who medal in his or her perspective weight should be ineligible. .

 

But if you DON'T medal. ... I think you should be allowed to participate in Both Youth and Middle School State Tournaments!

 

Curious if there is NO school all week.... Will Middle School Regions offer an additional pound. 

 

If they do give a extra pound due to weather? 

 

Would that extra pound carry over to State? 

 

 

I think we will see a pound this weekend too many schools off and not able to practice.  They will not give a pound for state because they gave it this weekend.  So if a kid is going to drop because they gave a pound they better make sure they can make weight for state.

Agreed. Come to the meeting. Cast your vote. Democracy wins. Simple as that. Maybe in the spring, we can revisit these “issues” but until then, it is what it is. Read the bylaws...don’t be that person the clicks “I agree” just to get it over with. Read. The. Literature. Come to the meetings and let your voice be heard. 

Sounds like we could have a few 12 man brackets at middle school state this year.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.  If a wrestler finishes top 4 at the middle school regional tournament and then decides they like their chances in the youth tournament they can do that?  If we fill the bracket with an alternate, they become in ineligible? 

5 minutes ago, Chris Duke said:

Sounds like we could have a few 12 man brackets at middle school state this year.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.  If a wrestler finishes top 4 at the middle school regional tournament and then decides they like their chances in the youth tournament they can do that?  If we fill the bracket with an alternate, they become in ineligible? 

Did you read the bylaws Chris? The middle school qualifiers (top 4 in each region) are automatically ineligible for youth state. The alternates are still eligible for youth state. So no that isn’t the case. Once qualified, you are ineligible. So if you’re on the fence make sure they finish 5th and they’re eligible for youth. Other then that, we’ll vote on making changes in the spring on our conference call. I’m running for election in 2036. Hence the sarcasm in this please.

2 hours ago, Coach Livingston said:

Agreed. Come to the meeting. Cast your vote. Democracy wins. Simple as that. Maybe in the spring, we can revisit these “issues” but until then, it is what it is. Read the bylaws...don’t be that person the clicks “I agree” just to get it over with. Read. The. Literature. Come to the meetings and let your voice be heard. 

So it's black and white?  If a wrestler doesn't wrestle in the YOUTH regional tournament he doesn't get to wrestle at state?  Below is from the bylaws.  

Every wrestler is required to have competed in a KFWC sanctioned regional tournament in order to participate in the Youth State Tournament.

19 minutes ago, twenhofelcoach said:

Did you read the bylaws Chris? The middle school qualifiers (top 4 in each region) are automatically ineligible for youth state. The alternates are still eligible for youth state. So no that isn’t the case. Once qualified, you are ineligible. So if you’re on the fence make sure they finish 5th and they’re eligible for youth. Other then that, we’ll vote on making changes in the spring on our conference call. I’m running for election in 2036. Hence the sarcasm in this please.

That's why I said my kid said he hopes he places 5th! He knows he doesn't stand a chance to place at state but still wants to wrestle hard at regionals for his team. Like I said before a rule that forces an 11 year old kid to think like that is stupid. He should just be able to go out and wrestle hard and let the chips fall where they may and not be penalized for being successful.

31 minutes ago, Alf said:

That's why I said my kid said he hopes he places 5th! He knows he doesn't stand a chance to place at state but still wants to wrestle hard at regionals for his team. Like I said before a rule that forces an 11 year old kid to think like that is stupid. He should just be able to go out and wrestle hard and let the chips fall where they may and not be penalized for being successful.

This rule defies all logic. Sounds like to me someone"s child got beat by a kid that wrestled in middle school and felt his child was entitled a medal ( that is what wrong with this country its always someone else" fault that you didn"t win don't worry son I'll get rid of those kids for you next year). Sorry words kept spewing off my fingers. Also on another note I remember a kid that qualified for high school state but didn't win youth may not of placed

On 1/17/2018 at 9:27 PM, gameface said:

So your saying a young 5th or 6th grader from a region with small participation numbers, makes the top 4 in their region and just qualifies, now is disqualified from the youth tournament that he actually is more prepared for. 

OR

A youth that puts in the extra work to become a solid wrestler, now is disqualified from competing at the youth state because the just qualified for a MS State. 

OR

A solid elite wrestler that wants to compete Nationally and wants to wrestle in the Elementary State Tournament BUT because Tulsa Nationals is the same weekend  as the manadatory Regional tournament that he has to weigh in for, but doesn’t even need to compete in to qualify for the State Tourney, cannot compete in his state tournament

All because some coach Dad thinks that by eliminating good kids from the elementary State tournament is a good idea!??

Nike Man, please explain how these scenerios are great for our sport, these kids or making our competition better?

Coach i agree with you and we have spoken about these types of things before. I just wonder why it was changed? It used to be if you placed at MS state you couldn't wrestle youth state, Spencer hasn't wrestled youth since he was like 3rd or 4th grade. Most of us like the old rule, this is another reason we as coaches need to make the meetings. These things come up and if only 10% of our coaches show up then the other 90% lives with the decisions of the other 10%. It is too late to change it foe this season, but we can bring it up at the meeting at state and at the spring meeting. Let's take this for what it is an eye opener. 

On 1/17/2018 at 11:48 PM, Nike Man said:

Maybe the fact that this becomes an issue every year is an indicator that something is wrong. Nobody is trying to punish a kid. But we shouldn’t be trying to coddle one either. So maybe we should make elementary, middle school and high school age kids definitive? 

Youth State Tournament eligibility grades K-5

Middle School State eligibility grades 6-8

High School State eligibility grades 9-12

If people don’t like grade requirements, maybe we should go to USA age requirements. Wrestle your age division and that’s all. Too many options for parents and coaches. Make age, grade, and weight definitive. No percents on weight. Make a weight class. But that’s a whole other ball of wax.

That would not be fair to many of the kids. Remember this is about the kids not coaches, we all have above par and below par wrestlers. The old way ensured that some kids who by default got to go to MS State and went 2 and out got a chance to compete with kids more on their level. However this new rule takes that opportunity away. I personally think if a kid goes to MS state as a default and 2 and outs may actually learn from the experience and be a better wrestler. Then at youth state the same kid may meet a wrestler from another region who is at the same level but couldn't qualify for MS State and have a very competitive match. This is just my observations over the last 7 years . 

20 hours ago, pin2win said:

It's 2018... we can't send out an email and vote online? There are tons of survey software out there we could use. Create the survey/poll and send the link out.

This goes back to them eliminating districts, which is another topic that needs to be discussed... but I hear it now "you should've come to the meetings".

We barely can get all the high school coaches to show up for the HS Coaches Clinic... what makes you think we're going to get all of the youth and ms coaches (who mostly volunteer or are paid very little) to show up to a meeting in the fall and/or spring? 

This is one of our biggest problems and was echoed last night while I spoke to several coaches about this horrible bi law about eliminating the opportunity for kids to compete on 2 different levels. We need to implement in 2018 Spring a new way to communicate and discuss these items and other items that are important to MS and Youth. This forum, for one is a valuable tool for coaches and wrestling fans to voice their opinion and share information. However, when some on the Board choose to stay away from the forum, then this line of communication becomes less effective. I truest believe we have a great group of coaches all working toward the best interest in the wrestler and the sport, but just have different ideas of how to benefit them. The forum ,by far, has provided the best opportunity for ideas to be shared, debated and finding the common ground. 

I would like to hear from these 10% of (coaches) that voted for this rule change.

Why in the Hell would you vote this rule change in?

Stand up and explain yourselves.

15 hours ago, twenhofelcoach said:

Did you read the bylaws Chris? The middle school qualifiers (top 4 in each region) are automatically ineligible for youth state. The alternates are still eligible for youth state. So no that isn’t the case. Once qualified, you are ineligible. So if you’re on the fence make sure they finish 5th and they’re eligible for youth. Other then that, we’ll vote on making changes in the spring on our conference call. I’m running for election in 2036. Hence the sarcasm in this please.

I have asked many about this rule and have been told that it reads participation at Middle School State, not eligibility for middle school state. Hence, if they step on the mat at State they are ineligible for Youth State but allowed to wrestle in Middle School Regions.  I hate this new rule. My son is a 10 year old, 5th grader wrestling 121 and can hold his own against most middle school kids but also gets beat by the better 8th graders, as he should.  It's a transition year for him and kids like that shouldn't be punished for being good at  the Youth level and also trying to  step out to get ready for middle school.

21 minutes ago, Braves coach said:

I would like to hear from these 10% of (coaches) that voted for this rule change.

Why in the Hell would you vote this rule change in?

Stand up and explain yourselves.

Braves Coach, 

              The 10% i referenced was just a thrown out number based on experience. And I agree why make this type of rule change ? I have to believe it is along the lines of what Heavy stated.

14 hours ago, heavy83 said:

This rule defies all logic. Sounds like to me someone"s child got beat by a kid that wrestled in middle school and felt his child was entitled a medal ( that is what wrong with this country its always someone else" fault that you didn"t win don't worry son I'll get rid of those kids for you next year). Sorry words kept spewing off my fingers. Also on another note I remember a kid that qualified for high school state but didn't win youth may not of placed

Youth state still more than two weeks away why can't thisrule be blown up before then. If there really is that much Outcry from the majority it should be able to be changed if you're just talking about the coaches in our state changing the rules for our tournament I would think it could be made to happen. Why does it have to wait until spring? What is wrong with January 19

4 hours ago, Braves coach said:

I would like to hear from these 10% of (coaches) that voted for this rule change.

Why in the Hell would you vote this rule change in?

Stand up and explain yourselves.

Probably the same coaches who voted for the 2 pound allowance. 

Glad this issue has come up.hopefully more coaches start voting! I agree with ALF! Youth State is still a few weeks away. I think you could have the coaches take a quick vote to change the rules of eligibility for youth state.

I propose that any coach who votes to eliminate any kid from participating in any tournament that they are eligible for and earned the right to participate in, should immediately lose their voting privileges.  Either these people haven’t thought this through or they have ulterior motives.

Bylaw 4. Voting process A. All proposals will be approved at the Spring coaches meeting. Proposals that are accepted by more than 50% of teams present will be voted on at the fall coaches meeting. Teams will have the ability to absentee vote or assign a proxy in writing prior to the meeting. All absentee votes and proxy permissions must be turned in 14 days prior to the state-wide meetings (It is the responsibility of coaches wishing to vote this way to make contact with a KFWC officer. All proposals must get more than 50% of the vote to be accepted. KFWC officers will receive 1 additional vote in the event of a tie. KFWC officers will post meeting notes and voting results to the Committee’s website. Member teams are responsible to keep current with information posted on the KFWC website (http://www.kentuckyusawrestling.org/page/show/1031369-middle-school-elementary-). B. Proposals that are voted on in the fall meetings, regardless of yes/no/other vote, shall be on moratorium for 2 years before they can be proposed again, unless urgent need for proposal as decided by KFWC board.

https://cdn2.sportngin.com/attachments/document/0134/9501/Kentucky_Folkstyle_Wrestling_Committee_Action_Items_21May2017.pdf

https://cdn4.sportngin.com/attachments/document/0134/9441/KFWC_Fall_Minutes_2017.pdf

On 1/17/2018 at 11:48 PM, Nike Man said:

 

23 hours ago, twenhofelcoach said:

Did you read the bylaws Chris? The middle school qualifiers (top 4 in each region) are automatically ineligible for youth state. The alternates are still eligible for youth state. So no that isn’t the case. Once qualified, you are ineligible. So if you’re on the fence make sure they finish 5th and they’re eligible for youth. Other then that, we’ll vote on making changes in the spring on our conference call. I’m running for election in 2036. Hence the sarcasm in this please.

I have been told otherwise. I have asked the question if you have a kid that finishes fourth at middle school region but decides to wrestle youth state he/she can opt out of middle school state giving their position to the alternate and wrestle youth state. Response was yes they can.

Most youth coaches are only around for a short period of time.  Most of these coaches have kids in a program and stay until their kid moves on to middle school.  Hopefully, each  generation of coaches will leave the youth wrestling program better than they found it.  Competition breeds success in most cases.  I imagine if we were talking about soccer, people would have mixed opinions as well.  My son was allowed to wrestle both like many other kids.  He turned out just fine.  All these wrestlers progress at their own pace.  Its ok to take a beating and want to work harder to close the gap.  There is no reason to shelter kids who are the same age and weight. Maybe the parents are more of the issue.  They need little Johnny to get a medal to make up for the hours they sat in a gym.  The problem is little Johnny is now a so called state champ and then he goes to a out of state tournament.  He takes a butt kicking and other states laugh that they beat a state champ from KY.  I think we should spend the time setting up true USA weight classes vs. watering down a so called state tournament.  Leave it up to the tough youth wrestler/parents if they want to compete in the state tournament.  I have seen it go both ways.  Some kids don't waste their time with the youth tournament because of the success they had at the next level.  The choice should be theirs, not a coach that is around for a few years.

You are crippling these kids.  This is no different than making an issue every time a kid takes a loss.  As far a having a meeting, its easy.  Most coaches take a conference call the week of the state tournament for seeding.  That would be a perfect time to take a vote on topics like this one.  I have been to many spring coaches meetings.  Usually about 5-10 coaches show up and a vote taken deciding the fate of the entire state is taken.  Put your heads together and figure out the best time to have the most coaches together at once.  Hell, take a break at the state tournament and let the table workers grab a bite to eat.  Then round up all coaches, go into a room and take a vote.  No need to debate, just vote and go on your way.

Quit making excuses and someone figure out a solution before we don't let kids with winning records wrestle at the youth state tournament.

1 hour ago, Louden Swain said:

I have been told otherwise. I have asked the question if you have a kid that finishes fourth at middle school region but decides to wrestle youth state he/she can opt out of middle school state giving their position to the alternate and wrestle youth state. Response was yes they can.

You are correct.  He was messing with me.  They can wrestle this weekend and they have until the step on the scale at Middle School State to decide what they want to do.  Top 4 this weekend will not lock them into the middle school tournament.

1 hour ago, Chris Duke said:

You are correct.  He was messing with me.  They can wrestle this weekend and they have until the step on the scale at Middle School State to decide what they want to do.  Top 4 this weekend will not lock them into the middle school tournament.

That’s what friends are for....

How about this, I bet that we will see more alternates wrestling in the State Tournament this year than the last three years combined and youth state numbers will be down 25% due to the fact that they have deemed so many kids ineligible. If that ain’t growth, what is????

On 1/17/2018 at 11:48 PM, Nike Man said:

If people don’t like grade requirements, maybe we should go to USA age requirements. Wrestle your age division and that’s all. Too many options for parents and coaches. Make age, grade, and weight definitive. No percents on weight. Make a weight class. But that’s a whole other ball of wax.

Now I thought you could move up in age division in USA?  

I've seen it happen many times. 

On 1/17/2018 at 5:42 AM, Chris Duke said:

Yes,  Dutch I brought it up only because I didn't see the rule change.  When it was top 4 I didn't agree with it but it seemed like a good compromise.  Two years later it's placers.  Now if you qualify, REALLY just qualifying will eliminate a kid from wrestling with kids his age.  I'm just not sure how this promotes growth.  

When you watch kids bust their tails all year and they have to choose between Youth and Middle School I doesn't make sense to me.  We have 2 kids that will not compete in the Middle School tournament and wrestle in a watered down Youth State because of this.  Both kids would most likely go 1-2 or maybe 2-2 in the Middle School Tournament.  How are we growing by making these kids choose?  By making teams and parents choose we are watering down both tournaments.  

I completely agree. If growth is what we're looking for, then the experience of wrestling in Middle School State against the top kids in that weight class gives our young men and women the opportunity to grow. I think placing top 4 is a good cutoff for youth. My older son placed 6th in his 8th grade year at Middle School State, then went on to place 2nd at youth the next day. The entire weekend was an outstanding experience for him and his younger brother, who also placed 2nd at youth that year. The time they both got on the mat, against top competition, was invaluable to their growth, both as wrestlers and their character. 

Have the coaches had the Regional seed meeting yet? 

On 1/17/2018 at 11:48 PM, Nike Man said:

If people don’t like grade requirements, maybe we should go to USA age requirements. Wrestle your age division and that’s all. Too many options for parents and coaches. Make age, grade, and weight definitive. No percents on weight. Make a weight class. But that’s a whole other ball of wax.

Are you kidding me USA wrestling has already shanghaid our middle school programs.  You want to give them total control?  

It already costs a small fortune for middle school teams to get USA cards for all their wrestlers then another to enter the regional tourny. All for insurance that school teams do not need.  The poor and inner city teams can barely afford it now.  When their teams get larger it makes it almost impossible. 

On 1/19/2018 at 3:58 PM, Stall Camp said:

Have the coaches had the Regional seed meeting yet? 

I’ve heard that it was being pushed back now to after the State Duals. Don’t quite understand why this also has changed but I’m sure there’s a vote out there somewhere we didn’t attend. I enjoyed the days when we’d get on right after the Regionals and battle who’s #1 out of each regional winner and then move up the weight classes. Now watch some teams forego the MS duals because of other teams going or not going. 

22 minutes ago, gameface said:

I’ve heard that it was being pushed back now to after the State Duals. Don’t quite understand why this also has changed but I’m sure there’s a vote out there somewhere we didn’t attend. I enjoyed the days when we’d get on right after the Regionals and battle who’s #1 out of each regional winner and then move up the weight classes. Now watch some teams forego the MS duals because of other teams going or not going. 

I’m all up for MS duals if we did it like high school does. Split Club and School teams and do it mid to late December in the heart of the season. Not knowing if you “qualify” or not makes it hard on teams to keep their kids and parents interested. Especially the ones that didn’t qualify for Middle School State. Also doing it the same weekend as high school doesn’t help the cause when you lose 3 of your kids to the high school team for their state duals. It would entice more teams to come. I guarantee that. Only stipulation would be you would have to have at least 10 spots filled on your team to come. 12 School teams and 12 club teams. 

I agree. State duals should be held mid season. Why risk injury or your State seed the weekend before The Big Show. I cannot imagine any coaches would risk the head to head battle of their number 1 seeds. Plus, several number 1's won't even wrestle ms. They will be with their H.S. team. For that reason alone this tournament proves very little.

14 hours ago, gameface said:

I’ve heard that it was being pushed back now to after the State Duals. Don’t quite understand why this also has changed but I’m sure there’s a vote out there somewhere we didn’t attend. I enjoyed the days when we’d get on right after the Regionals and battle who’s #1 out of each regional winner and then move up the weight classes. Now watch some teams forego the MS duals because of other teams going or not going. 

They feel that head to head at state duals may change seeds! Most state placers will not be wrestling duals for cautionary reasons..

1 hour ago, Bulldoglife said:

They feel that head to head at state duals may change seeds! Most state placers will not be wrestling duals for cautionary reasons..

All I read about is the need for growth in Kentucky, improving against good competition and trying to wrestle more against good competition,  and now coaches are holding kids out for a chance against stronger competition.  That is kind of sad.

1 minute ago, DocG said:

All I read about is the need for growth in Kentucky, improving against good competition and trying to wrestle more against good competition,  and now coaches are holding kids out for a chance against stronger competition.  That is kind of sad.

I agree 100% Doc!

55 minutes ago, DocG said:

All I read about is the need for growth in Kentucky, improving against good competition and trying to wrestle more against good competition,  and now coaches are holding kids out for a chance against stronger competition.  That is kind of sad.

There will be strategy at State Duals.  That is a fact.  We will put our best kids on the mat to give us the best chance of winning.  What we will not do in that process is affect their seed for the State Tournament.  Our team will not show up just to say we went!  We are in it to win it.  State Duals are fun, but the bigger picture is winning the overall title the following week.   All wrestlers are not created equal!!!  Some kids need our help to get them in the best position to win.

14 minutes ago, Chris Duke said:

There will be strategy at State Duals.  That is a fact.  We will put our best kids on the mat to give us the best chance of winning.  What we will not do in that process is affect their seed for the State Tournament.  Our team will not show up just to say we went!  We are in it to win it.  State Duals are fun, but the bigger picture is winning the overall title the following week.   All wrestlers are not created equal!!!  Some kids need our help to get them in the best position to win.

I do understand what your saying but here’s what I say...let em wrestle. 

1 minute ago, Bluesdad said:

I do understand what your saying but here’s what I say...let em wrestle. 

If your son was my wrestler I would also say let them wrestle.  It's easy to say when your on top!

1 hour ago, DocG said:

All I read about is the need for growth in Kentucky, improving against good competition and trying to wrestle more against good competition,  and now coaches are holding kids out for a chance against stronger competition.  That is kind of sad.

31 minutes ago, Chris Duke said:

There will be strategy at State Duals.  That is a fact.  We will put our best kids on the mat to give us the best chance of winning.  What we will not do in that process is affect their seed for the State Tournament.  Our team will not show up just to say we went!  We are in it to win it.  State Duals are fun, but the bigger picture is winning the overall title the following week.   All wrestlers are not created equal!!!  Some kids need our help to get them in the best position to win.

I do agree partly. The point of state duals is to show team ability and sportsmanship,however we had a kid get his leg broke in December from a bad fall on the mat. That being said if you have a kid who is in serious contention for a top finish at state tournament where it is about the individual I personally wouldn't want to take the chance of risking their chances. That is why we lay it all out to our contenders and let them decide. Just say you have a wrestler that is 8th grade been to state every year and barely places but now he has a chance at top 2, why take a chance at him not being able to achieve what he has worked for? Although we are teams we are still an individual sport. 

1 hour ago, DocG said:

All I read about is the need for growth in Kentucky, improving against good competition and trying to wrestle more against good competition,  and now coaches are holding kids out for a chance against stronger competition.  That is kind of sad.

I agree with DocG. Just not the weekend before State. Too many risks involved this late in the game.

Injuries or skin funk.

No thanks.

30 minutes ago, Braves coach said:

I agree with DocG. Just not the weekend before State. Too many risks involved this late in the game.

Injuries or skin funk.

No thanks.

Braves coach, that's the point why risk a kids chances that close to the big dance? 3 years ago we had an 8th grader from Campbell county who should have taken 1st but got eliminated at weigh ins with ring worm. This is a meet that needs a new date like a week after State.That way all your top kids are not at risk and the rest are at top form.

Mid Season and we get all teams at full strength with no dodging of competition. Also allows us the chance to see teams from all 4 corners of the state before the state tournament. And maybe get to actually wrestle against them or have a common opponent at least for the seeding of the state tournament.

10 minutes ago, twenhofelcoach said:

Mid Season and we get all teams at full strength with no dodging of competition. Also allows us the chance to see teams from all 4 corners of the state before the state tournament. And maybe get to actually wrestle against them or have a common opponent at least for the seeding of the state tournament.

Wow Keith that was some fancy thinking for you. I am impressed.

Someone from this forum should  get on the board. They could use some common sense.

31 minutes ago, twenhofelcoach said:

Mid Season and we get all teams at full strength with no dodging of competition. Also allows us the chance to see teams from all 4 corners of the state before the state tournament. And maybe get to actually wrestle against them or have a common opponent at least for the seeding of the state tournament.

It's a great plan.  The only drawback would be how to sort out which teams would go.

2 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

It's a great plan.  The only drawback would be how to sort out which teams would go.

Use conference rankings

 That’s the easy part, each region gets 4 club teams and 4 school teams invited. You must be able to fill 10 weights of the 15 available. If regions can’t get enough schools to commit, then it’s open invite after that.

15 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

It's a great plan.  The only drawback would be how to sort out which teams would go.

9 minutes ago, twenhofelcoach said:

 That’s the easy part, each region gets 4 club teams and 4 school teams invited. You must be able to fill 10 weights of the 15 available. If regions can’t get enough schools to commit, then it’s open invite after that.

 

Great plan. Good luck getting it done with this board.  Until then we are going to have a nice jv Ms state duals. Woo hoo..

1 hour ago, Bulldoglife said:

Wow Keith that was some fancy thinking for you. I am impressed.

He’s on the ball today!! Rump is not going to be the butt of any jokes today so back it down Holmes!

2 minutes ago, gameface said:

He’s on the ball today!! Rump is not going to be the butt of any jokes today so back it down Holmes!

Never you know me better thaN THAT. 

3 hours ago, Bulldoglife said:

Never you know me better thaN THAT. 

Did you like how i played of “Rump” and led it into the “butt” joke!!!! Lol I Love Keith! 

I found it quite humorous. Lol

coaches and parents that are having kids wrestle youth just so the kid has a better chance to win are doing a disservice to the kid! Losing is growing! You should always want your kids competing against the best competetion 

I want to give Joey"the Beast" Sanders a shout out.  Way to go kid.  Down 5-0 and come back and win in sudden death.  I have watched this kid since he started.  Has a outstanding family... His mom (Mary) was home sick with the flu.  This kid had a gut check and elevated his self to win..  Great Job Joey..... I just hope Louisville has enough beer for Matt.  Wish I was there.  Track live was awesome.  Great job all participants, and especially Raider Wrestling.  All coaches and parents, outstanding job.  you go Keith.   

Congrats Sanders nice win...

  The finals were fun to watch..Those kids put on a show.. 

CONGRATS TO ALL THE CHAMPS and State players.. 

If anyone hears of any KY Tournaments over the summer

Or near by states putting on Tournaments,  over the summer please post them on here for everyone to see. 

The tournament was well run..  I was a little Surprised we didn't have a larger crowd.. 

The live stream was a good idea.  Gonna have to purchase a track membership so I can watch all the matches again. 

It was a fun year.  

High school will be getting some solid wrestlers coming up. 

#Kentucky #Wrestling. 

On 1/17/2018 at 1:31 PM, pin2win said:

It's 2018... we can't send out an email and vote online? There are tons of survey software out there we could use. Create the survey/poll and send the link out.

This goes back to them eliminating districts, which is another topic that needs to be discussed... but I hear it now "you should've come to the meetings".

We barely can get all the high school coaches to show up for the HS Coaches Clinic... what makes you think we're going to get all of the youth and ms coaches (who mostly volunteer or are paid very little) to show up to a meeting in the fall and/or spring? 

That's exactly why Kentucky wrestling is behind the 8 ball! It's like everybody wants second option for their kid to place or win a medal! Good wrestler compete in MS! If your new or not as talented you wrestle in youth! That's like saying a travel baseball team loses a competitive tournament and they want to win a medal so they go and play the local little league rec tournament so they can win! It's life people you are either good or not! If your kid loses he loses! He needs to work harder! You don't put him in youth so he can win a medal! 

OK I gained a little more knowledge over the weekend. (See and old dog can still learn).  I did not know that there was a middle school level at the Youth state. I'm still trying to wrap my head around that one. When GOO Jr. wrestled only 6th and lower wrestled at Youth state.  But since there is I would agree that a MIDDLE SCHOOL kid that goes to the state tourney should not wrestle in the Youth state.  If they are elementary kids wrestling middle school then they should be allowed to wrestle at Youth state regardless of there placement or lack of at the middle school state.  

On 2/6/2018 at 7:48 PM, grappler-of-old said:

OK I gained a little more knowledge over the weekend. (See and old dog can still learn).  I did not know that there was a middle school level at the Youth state. I'm still trying to wrap my head around that one. When GOO Jr. wrestled only 6th and lower wrestled at Youth state.  But since there is I would agree that a MIDDLE SCHOOL kid that goes to the state tourney should not wrestle in the Youth state.  If they are elementary kids wrestling middle school then they should be allowed to wrestle at Youth state regardless of there placement or lack of at the middle school state.  

I would AGREE  except the the youth state tournament is first broken by birth year. An 8th grader based on DOB should never wrestle a 6th grader. In some areas a 7th or 8th grade 1st year wrestler may automatically default to the MS state tournament and go 2 and out. it's cases like this that we a doing a disservice to our kids by not allowing them to compete at youth state. The old way of top 8 at MS were disqualified from youth was perfect. I say as much mat time we can give our kids the more we grow as a sport. IMHO