FYI

http://khsaa.org/sports/winter/wrestling/

Click on state tournament into. The link is under that tab. 

And once again you have the #1 .vs  #2 guys are wrestling in the quarters. Should be Seeded by region and then separated by rankings (Region Champ that's ranked the highest gets #1 spot, the next Region Champ that's next highest ranked gets the #32 spot) that Region to try to get the top 4 guys in the semi's. This has came up year after year, whats it gonna take to fix the issue.

There's a 50/50 shot to meet in the semis, if they both win. Seeding really needs to be done. 

I say it every year.  Ky seeds no state tournaments and never will.  You are guessing as to who are the number 1 and number 2. 

22 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

I say it every year.  Ky seeds no state tournaments and never will.  You are guessing as to who are the number 1 and number 2. 

They are seeding football in 2018. 

Until the KHSAA figures out that they are the problem, Wrestling will always be limited in KY.

1st round of tournament is Sectionals with 8-12 teams feeding a Sectional; The 4 tops finishers advance to Regionals

2nd round/ 2 Sectionals feed each Regional (16 total State Regionals) ; Top 4 advance to a Semi State

3rd round/ 4 Regionals feed a Semi-state (4 total Semi-states); Top 4 advance to State

State 1st round Friday Night, Got to win Friday to get a chance to take a podium seat.

Saturday Night Finals...1 MAT UNDER THE LIGHTS!!!!!!

2 hours ago, Rtrburn76 said:

Until the KHSAA figures out that they are the problem, Wrestling will always be limited in KY.

1st round of tournament is Sectionals with 8-12 teams feeding a Sectional; The 4 tops finishers advance to Regionals

2nd round/ 2 Sectionals feed each Regional (16 total State Regionals) ; Top 4 advance to a Semi State

3rd round/ 4 Regionals feed a Semi-state (4 total Semi-states); Top 4 advance to State

State 1st round Friday Night, Got to win Friday to get a chance to take a podium seat.

Saturday Night Finals...1 MAT UNDER THE LIGHTS!!!!!!

The semi-state was tried ini 87,88.  Worst thing that ever happened to wrestling in KY. Was an 8 man bracket only one day state tourney. 

You can't have 4 Semi-states if you only have 4 regionals. There are only 8 regions right now.  You would have to break up the regions into sectionals and we already don't have enough teams in some regions. 

9 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

I say it every year.  Ky seeds no state tournaments and never will.  You are guessing as to who are the number 1 and number 2. 

State tennis has been seeded for a while.

Track and swimming both seed in regards to the people with the fastest times get put in the same heat, the slower times in a slower heat.

6 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

The semi-state was tried ini 87,88.  Worst thing that ever happened to wrestling in KY. Was an 8 man bracket only one day state tourney. 

You can't have 4 Semi-states if you only have 4 regionals. There are only 8 regions right now.  You would have to break up the regions into sectionals and we already don't have enough teams in some regions. 

 

That's why I said 4 regions feed a semi state...there is no reason to have more than 8 teams at a region. 32 man non seeded bracket = a cluster #$_&. 

It's a general consensus that this system is severely flawed

If we as a community don't come together as a whole on this system sucks....they aren't going to change. But why do we seed any tournament or regions. Their seeded by recorded and head to head = same way rankings are compiled. 

I was against the 32 man bracket when we started it.  The reasoning for doing it was that more teams would qualify kids and therefore more schools would keep and start wrestling programs.  It has worked.  We have almost doubled the amount of teams in Kentucky with wrestling and the number of kids wrestling.  I for one could not stand having another 8 man bracket at the state tournament.  

KHSAA might like another 8 man bracket, less money because it would only be one day.  But then again less people would attend the tournament if it was an 8 man and little Johnny was not there wrestling.  

Regions are seeded because you want the best kids to qualify for the next tourney.  Many tourneys throughout the year are not completely seeded.  Many just separate the good wrestler.  

If I thought that the state tournament could actually be seeded I would be in favor of it, but I truthfully don't believe it is possible.  How many head to heads are there going to be between a kid from Western Ky (who spends a lot of the season in Tenn, and Mizz) with a kid from Nky who spends most of his season in Ohio? 

13 hours ago, plantmanky1 said:

They are seeding football in 2018. 

I wonder if teams like Highland in Nky will change their schedule next year.  They go to Ohio for the competition and lose many football games yet still come on top in the state tourney.  

I think that many have been spoiled by Rangers rankings.  What is going to happen when he decides he can't do them any longer?  We had rankings prior to Ranges and they were WAY off.  I don't think anyone will put the time he and his team do to make these rankings again once he stops doing them.  He has been fairly accurate the last decade which is why many are arguing for seeding the state tourney.  No one ever thought of such a thing until he came around and started doing a great job with them. 

But it wont be around forever. 

7 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

I wonder if teams like Highland in Nky will change their schedule next year.  They go to Ohio for the competition and lose many football games yet still come on top in the state tourney.  

The way I understand it, is they are not seeding the whole playoffs.  They will only be seeding the semi-final round in each class, so that's not really an apples to apples comparison to the State Wrestling tourney. They will use some combination of the various ranking services that are out there to set the seeds.  Strength of schedule plays into all of those, so I don’t think teams will be rushing out to change their schedule in hopes they can pull a number one seed if they make they state semis.  

I think seeding does need to happen (and not necessarily the whole tourney....setting the top 4 or 8 and having the rest draw in based on region finish works for me).   And while rankings can be somewhat subjective, Trackwrestling is a great tool that needs to be utilized more, especially when running tourneys, so all the info needed for seeding is out there and readily available.  

Seeding doesn't solve everything, especially when the regions are as unbalanced as some are in terms of depth.  There are always the occasional region winners that would struggle to place in the toughest regions.  But it would be better than the current system.

I think I could live with top 4 regional winners seeded or at least separated.  I think you could disseminate the top 4 of each wt. class from the regional winners.  

Seeding anything past the top four is virtually impossible given some regions are just tougher than others. If Region 6 has the #1,2, and 4 kids in the state, and Region 1 has #3, 7, and 8. Your system is already screwed because #3, and #2 could still meet in second round, and #4 might get the # 7 in the first round.

We do debate this every year.  My guess is we will continue to debate if for years to come.

The only point that I will make is that its not impossible to seed this tournament.  Every tournament during the season and every national tournament I have been to has some type of seeding.  If Virginia Beach, Flo, and Fargo can find a way, I'm sure we could figure it out for a 32-man bracket that has every result posted on track.

The way Tennessee does it is that you have to be a returning medalist AND region champ to get seeded. If you were a state champ last year but finish 2nd in your region this year, sorry. Drawn in. 

National tournaments are a different species entirely. They are not battling the issue of kids being from the same region and trying to separate them as well. If you want to see the tournament then you need to disregard the region the wrestler is from and seed top 8-16 whatever. Then blind draw the others in. This would do away with the random draw of region format that the state uses now.

I say just separate top 4. super easy. Beyond that I don't think people care much if #7 has to meet #8 in the 2nd round or the path to finals for the 8th ranked wrestler is a tad easier than the 6th ranked wrestler. That's where the argument of "settle it on the mat" comes into play.  But having two top ranked guys meet before Semis is just not entertaining for fans and doesn't properly reward the few top ranked guys that accomplished the most to get there. And its easy to fix.

But who says they are the top 4. Like several others have said, lots of teams travel and have few commons with each other. You could always go back to wrestling for a true second.

Only seed the region champs, which would exclude some of the top 8 guys, but would be better than what we have now.

13 minutes ago, 119Rider said:

But who says they are the top 4. Like several others have said, lots of teams travel and have few commons with each other. You could always go back to wrestling for a true second.

I think there should be an opportunity for a true second. 

Track head to head, notable wins, margin of victories. Have the 8 region team champs Coaches seed the top 8

A kid who won a region with only 5 wrestlers in the weight class doesn't deserve a top 8 seeding simply bc they're a region champ.  has to be full body of work.  Use Ranger's rankings.

If everything is supposed to be in track, I’m not sure why the debate needs to be a big deal. Track has records, head to head, common opponents, margin of victory. I don’t think you need to seed all 32 guys at state, but use regionals as a qualifier and Track as seeding criteria....just like they do for regionals. If national tournaments can figure it out, surely the state of Kentucky can.  I’m not going to go through all the crazy draws this year has, but from a fan’s perspective, the semis should be #1-4 (barring any upsets). From a competitor’s perspective, tough draws could lend themselves to potential MOW honors. So, I guess it depends on what the goal is. I think seeding the top 4 could easily be done - even if it meant all 4 wrestlers are from the same region. Just my Canadian $0.02.

The only times that seeding is a problem is when the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th ranked guy is beaten by number 1 early. Only the top 4 need seating. Gives a chance for real semis. The top 4 guys(or whoever knocked them off) should meet in the semifinals. Simple. Easy. How it should be done. 

Track does not solve everything.  The teams on the boarders that spend most of their time out of state would be at a disadvantage in the seeding.  Especially if the kid comes from a school that is not a powerhouse.  Those teams don't travel to a lot of tough tournaments and therefore don't have as many significant wins against Ky opponents.  Significant wins against out of state opponents would go unnoticed because those kids would not be known throughout Ky.  

I will con-seed to separating the probable top 4 wrestlers.  Figure out who you believe they are and randomly draw them into the 4 seed spots, but only the regional champions.  If they are runner up then they will be on the opposite side of the one who beat them.  

20 hours ago, BobcatWrestling said:

The way Tennessee does it is that you have to be a returning medalist AND region champ to get seeded. If you were a state champ last year but finish 2nd in your region this year, sorry. Drawn in. 

Ohio is similar, have to be a returning top 3 placer and district champ.  Just merely seeding the Regional champs based on returning placement Criteria and/or win percentage would change the entire landscape.  It's not hard to follow that.  It wouldn't fix everything, but be a whole lot better than it is now.  Tie Breaker Criteria for same placement- 1- Returning to the same weight class; 2- Win Percentage; 3- Previous year placements.  Doesn't answer everything, but sure answers a lot.

120 Weight Class- based on Returning placement/win percentage; And Regional Champ (these are not predictions, just carried over the higher ranking athlete)

After looking at this I see that you did not separate the regions into the 4 quarters?  Region 6 has 2 in the (4th seed) quarters and none in the (2nd seed) quarters. Gradstaff (Conner) and Ocasio (Simon Kenton) could meet in the quarters. 

10 minutes ago, Coach Wagers said:

Ohio is similar, have to be a returning top 3 placer and district champ.  Just merely seeding the Regional champs based on returning placement Criteria and/or win percentage would change the entire landscape.  It's not hard to follow that.  It wouldn't fix everything, but be a whole lot better than it is now.  Tie Breaker Criteria for same placement- 1- Returning to the same weight class; 2- Win Percentage; 3- Previous year placements.  Doesn't answer everything, but sure answers a lot.

120 Weight Class- based on Returning placement/win percentage; And Regional Champ (these are not predictions, just carried over the higher ranking athlete)

Rank	Seed	Round 1	Round 2	QTRS	Semi's	Finals
2	1	Cagen Wallace	Cagen Wallace	Cagen Wallace	Cagen Wallace	Cagen Wallace
9		Keaton Elliot
20		Sergio Morales	Dylan Preston
6		Dylan Preston
7		Zach Cowan	Zach Cowen	Zach Cowen
		Indy Ciceron
		Caileb Hills	Isaac Pledger
14	8	Isaac Pledger
11	5	Jacob Grandstaff	Jacob Grandstaff	Tyler Storck	Tyler Storck
		Garrett Koestel
4		Tyler Storck	Tyler Storck
		Matthew Hendricks
8		Migdoel Ocasio	Migdoel Ocasio	Migdoel Ocasio
21		Cayden Graham
24		Robert Martin	Carson Deckard
13	4	Carson Deckard
1	3	Gabe Adams	Gabe Adams	Gabe Adams	Gabe Adams	Gabe Adams
		Blake Botts
		Michael Watts	Ethan Wells
10		Ethan Wells
5		Brad Miller	Brad Miller	Brad Miller
		Harrison Turrey
25		Cordell Vaske	Dylan Harkins
17	6	Dylan Harkins
19	7	Jarrett Sanders	Jarrett Sander	Eli Peyton	Preston Mattingly
		Luke Fullerton
12		Eli Peyton	Eli Peyton
15		Marquell McDaniel
		Isaac French	Troy Wooten	Preston Mattingly
		Troy Wooten
		Carter Mitchell	Preston Mattingly
3	2	Preston Mattingly

Seems like a great setup to me. Keeps the top 8 separated out a little and not bunched up early. 

Lets start from a clean slate...no reason to try to fix what is totally broken.

You have a 16 man bracket for state.....Which is fed by 4 semi-states which each produce 4 state qualifiers, so you have 16 man brackets.

Regionals: Sends top 4 to a Semi-state (2 Regional sites feed each Semi-state)

32 man bracket is a grind, injuries occur, long days and waits between rounds wear on the wrestlers.

Friday night is first round. Gives Most Working Parents a Chance to come the first day.

Can consolidate to 4 mats, better venue options.

Leaves us room to add on with a Sectional and redo regionals for growth. Wrestling starts at 10am and is done by 5 at the latest.

Food for thought guys, it is how its done in other states. Don't come back with the "KHSAA won't change"; your only adding to the problem. Either we get united or we continue to let wrestling fail in Ky.

Rankings do play apart even to the border teams; because they are wrestling teams with Nationally Ranked Kids, so if they do suffer a loss but a minor decision...It MATTERS! This is reason you don't see the perfect records of wrestlers by the border teams, because they have wrestled the BEST that's why they are so DAMN good. If I had the choice we'd wrestle North of the Ohio River every chance we got. Might get our butts handed to us, but we know where we need to improve. Wrestling is a year round sport and unfortunately you got to travel in the off season.

I'm not trying to be harsh, Wrestling is the only sport I care about and I take it extremely personal when I see it or the wrestlers being held back. Lets tell the KHSAA we need to go back to the table and discuss what's best for growth in KY.  I say put a panel together and reach out to KSHAA.

6 minutes ago, Rtrburn76 said:

Leaves us room to add on with a Sectional and redo regionals for growth. Wrestling starts at 10am and is done by 5 at the latest.

Just to play devil's advocate, because I like the idea of District/Region/State or Region/Sectionals/State or whatever. 

How does adding a Sectional tournament promote growth?  Less qualifiers at the state tourney, less teams represented at the state tourney.  

KHSAA will change, they did when they got rid of the three week post season, and wrestling has grown because of it.  I personally like the 3 week post season, but wrestling has grown in the state because more teams are represented at the state tournament.  

I think we have a better chance to seed the regional champs than changing back to a 3 week post season.  I think our numbers would have to grow to where the existing regions are to large and need to be split into two regions or districts.  At this point only one or two regions have the number of teams to split and they don't have the participants to split. 

Sectional will allow when we outgrow adding another stages at the beginning, but only 2 advance at that phase. Its not perfect until numbers are up, we are a ways out from crossing the bridge

Its not about the teams at the State tournament, they have their own State Tournament. If we are worried about the amount of teams represented then lets start handing out the participation trophies now.

The reason for the post season is for the cream to rise to the top. I have seen 3rd regional finishers come back and win a their Semi-state and go one to place 5th at state. The multiple phases of the State Tournament allows if  you have the top 2 guys in weight class and are in the same Sectional, to battle the next 3 weeks. 1 match doesn't defy the rest of tournament, allows chances for redemption.

Im all about what we can do to help. I'm not coaching this year do to work, but I'm willing to be on a board/panel/think tank to come up with ideas and sit down with KHSAA and address our concerns and try to find a common ground. We need to find out why South Central area schools are reluctant to start programs.

There's enough division in the World today, lets work together and come up with a plan.

54 minutes ago, DrBaker said:

Seems like a great setup to me. Keeps the top 8 separated out a little and not bunched up early. 

This exactly what I was referencing. Thank you

Having only the top 2 to advance does not seem logical to me.  I know in region 6 many times all 4 place in the top 6 at state. I have seen region 6 and many other regions have 3 in the semifinals of the state tournament. 

I know back in the stone age when I wrestled when we had district/region/state our district had 3 in the semi's twice in my wt class from region 6. 

You would also want to balance the second week. Don't want region 6 and 7 to meet in the second week. Or region 7 and 8. 

1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:

After looking at this I see that you did not separate the regions into the 4 quarters?  Region 6 has 2 in the (4th seed) quarters and none in the (2nd seed) quarters. Gradstaff (Conner) and Ocasio (Simon Kenton) could meet in the quarters. 

Didn't take that much time, merely seeded.  So when the regions drop in, it would actually be different.  I will compare when regions fall into place if time allows (swamped today at work)

To be honest, the best way for us is the way it is right now and seed the top 8 regional winners. Not hard to do. Coach Wagers has it shown correctly. Still allows for upsets and tough quarterfinal matches. Takes away most of the second round matches. You still can have those tough second round matches when a Region is overloaded with top end talent. Win your region and get a more favorable draw for your first round.

On 2/14/2018 at 9:52 AM, grappler-of-old said:

After looking at this I see that you did not separate the regions into the 4 quarters?  Region 6 has 2 in the (4th seed) quarters and none in the (2nd seed) quarters. Gradstaff (Conner) and Ocasio (Simon Kenton) could meet in the quarters. 

So I split the regions this morning.  This bracket would now be the prime example of how Regional depth and seeding will not change any outcome.  The bottom half is now stacked with more "ranked" kids than the top.  It Eliminates the guantlet for Adams, however creates the Gauntlet for Storck/Mattingly/Ocasio/Preston.  The bottom corner the way it falls, and due to depth and people losing, no way to really get out of it.  you would have Dylan Preston vs. Tyler Storck first round, winner to possible Ocasio/Mattingly (2nd round match), then to Gabe, to the finals of Wallace/Miller.  Like I said original post, seeding the regional champs would help, but it's hard to eliminate the regional depth factor.

Having just 1 round of post season leading to state tournament may be the issue. I attached Indiana's brackets for their state tournament this weekend.

State2018.pdf

If the numbers to the left are the rankings then they don't seem to be much better off than we are. Many of the brackets are unbalanced. 

9 minutes ago, Rtrburn76 said:

Having just 1 round of post season leading to state tournament may be the issue. I attached Indiana's brackets for their state tournament this weekend.

State2018.pdf

Is this seeded? There are a few #1 and #2 on the same side. 

State is the only one not seed, your 4 semi state champs are the at top and bottom of a bracket, Seeding by rank takes a 2nd to semi-state champs, A lot of semi state's the top 4 ranked face each other. Take a look how they do there whole state series and see if we can adapt to something like this.

http://indianamat.com/index.php?/brackets.html/2018/2018-state-series/

Not much different then what we use to have District/Region/State. 

Top 4 in each regional would go to sectional.  (8 regions to make 4 sectionals).  Top 4 in each sectional would go to state. 16 man bracket at state.  

No different than we use to do up till 2002.  

The huge majority of coaches/fans wanted to expand the state tourney to 32 man bracket and get rid of second post season week. (I was not one of them). 

May have missed this in another thread but does anyone have a ball park idea for when finals will be?

From the KHSAA Website (http://khsaa.org/sports/winter/wrestling/)

statemeettimetable.pdf

I thought the seed was going by Ranger's Rankings. If Adams is number 1 kid in state and has beaten Wallace, then why is he seeded third? LOL

22 minutes ago, 119Rider said:

I thought the seed was going by Ranger's Rankings. If Adams is number 1 kid in state and has beaten Wallace, then why is he seeded third? LOL

I think he seeded it based off there placement at last years state tourney. 

1 hour ago, teammom said:

From the KHSAA Website (http://khsaa.org/sports/winter/wrestling/)

statemeettimetable.pdf

Thank you