There has been a lot of good action early this season, but not much changing at the top of the rankings.  And there won't be too much action this week with the holiday (wait, I don't have to be politically correct, CHRISTMAS).  But WCI is coming up and things could shake up with that tournament later this month.  Also, please send me some feedback on the 160s around the state.  I would like to expand to the top 25 at each weight, but need some more quality 160 guys to put on the list.

103

Sen Elliott Martin  11

Tri Myron Bradbury  9

SK Robbie Vaughn  10

JC Zach Salyers  8

Un Co Jarvis Elam  11

FC Tommy Warren  9

Lar Co Justin Thompson  10

Man Scott Deschamp  10

Cald Co Patrick Wimbleduff  9

TC Anthony Merkel

Ryle Michael Osbourne  9

SO Brandon Whitehouse  9

NH Coty Wood  10

NO Taylor South

JH Kirby Goodwine  9

Laf Shawn Johnson  9

Wood Co Ethan Miller  11

Mc Cen Luke Troxell  8

Way Co Dalton Hasselbring  7

Con Matt Brewer

112

Way Co Travis Sullivan  11

Un Co Adam Carr  12

HC Cliff Cornett  12

Mon Co Ross Carpenter-Fraser  11

PD Jon Voth  11

NO Andre Zeppa  11

Bull Cen James Badgett  11

Sen Jeff Warra  10

Tri Dan Smith  11

Whit Co Dalton Evans  11

Con TJ Bates  9

Ryle Sam Scheuer  12

Vall Mike Miller  12

Let Co Cen Dakota Kincer  10

Mc Cen Daniel Bowling  10

FC Daniel Wiexler  11

Moore Zachary Michael  9

PRP Nick Reichmuth  11

Meade Arthur Ohmes  11

NH Brandon Wilder  11

119

Way Co Bryan Daniels  11

Sen John Chui  12

JH Josh Johnson  9

Eas Joaquin Luna  10

JC Cory Spencer  11

HC Matt Zarth  10

Wood Co Shane Parks  11

St X Nick Norwood  12

Scott Gabe Supe  11

NO Antonio Zeppa  12

Tri Jacob Barton  11

Un Co Aaron Carr  10

SK Steve Norberry  10

FC Josh Burkett  11

SO Steve Vaughn  10

Hend Co Bryce Alexander  9

PD Abdul Aghil  11

Ryle Andrew Isler  12

Cam Co Caleb Schneider  10

NH Terrance Demery  9

125

PD Tyler Voth  12

Wood Co Coty Lewis  11

Sen Dan Fuller  12

Way Co Coty Vinsant  11

SC Matt Slone  9

Un Co Jake Wempe  11

Tri Grant Ohlman  9

PRP Corey Mills  11

Mon Co Chris Walker  12

Laf Ryan Traylor  12

Moore Crayton McCain  12

Old Co Trey Morlatt  11

CH Ross Engle  11

JH Houston Lundy  10

NH John King  12

Cam Co Talon Deinlein  11

Lar Co Logan Hull  10

Ryle Justin Hollingsworth  12

JC Tyler Grimm  9

Ft Knox Cameron Barrientos  11

130

NH Matt Eck  12

Un Co Isaac Ervin  10

FC Derek Branch  11

Lar Co Lucas Carmen  11

Chr Co Jake Skinner  11

NO Tom Kusnir  12

Laf Nathan Speck

Cam Co Korey Shotwell  9

JH Justin Pitcher  11

Eas Paul Marks  12

And Co Shane Carey  11

PRP Daniel Sauer  10

Moore Steve Willbanks  9

Ft Camp Alan Johnson  11

Fair Mike Seeders  12

Per Co Cen Charles Turner  12

Ryle Cory Rahe  10

SK Zach McGuffey  12

PD Andrew Collins

SC Steven Marcum  10

135

Har Co Josh Ashbrook  11

Old Co Ben Warner  12

JH Cassidy Veach  12

Wood Co Steven Butler  12

FC Kevin Stewart  12

Tri Ben Case  12

JC Jordan Freeman  10

Ohio Co Jonathan Miller  12

NH Johnivon Oggs  12

Sen Zach Poulton  11

SK Dusty Brown  10

Cam Co Kyle Griffith  11

CH Steven Rivera  11

And Co Robinson

Bull Cen Justin Walls  10

Laf Alex Allman  12

Eas Blake Kraft  12

Lar Co Darwin Perez  12

Let Co Cen Josh Back  11

PRP Don Phillips  11

140

Ryle Bryan Peace  11

FC Malcolm Jackson  12

Lar Co Matt Miller  11

Way Co Kacy Kennedy  11

St X Cory Kress  12

Vall Ben Edwards  12

PD Donnell Davis

Wood Co Chad Scott  11

Har Co Bryan Wasson  11

SO Andrew Mitchell

NH Jerry Ledford  12

Moore Justin Johnston  12

Un Co Carson Chambliss  12

Bull Cen Chris Pearson  12

Sen Ricky Wright  10

Ohio Co Wesley Kiper  12

Sou Zach Durden  12

Nel Co Forest Rehrig  12

JH Drake Sullivan  12

Laf Matt Rostosky

145

Wood Co Harrison Courtney  10

Un Co Mitch Ervin  11

Scott Daniel Thueneman  12

FC Ben Barger  11

Har Co Beau Sanders  11

St X Chip Condon  12

Fr Co Ryan Tingle  11

And Co Sammy Isaacs  11

Lar Co Evan Smith  12

PD Nick Quigley  12

SO Cody Hall  12

Con Jake Lee  9

Ft Camp Rob Caracillo  12

SC Eric Musick  12

TC Jamal Mohammed  12

Ryle Will Gilliland  11

Old Co Nate Rousseau

Eas Vincent Castellano

Cen Kevin Porter

NO Chris Dudley

152

SK Josh Cooper  12

Lar Co Patrick Banks  12

Tri Brad Hitchings  9

Hol John Golsby  12

Mc Cen Randall Stevens  12

Wood Co Blake Sheehan  11

Way Co Tim Winchester  11

Cen John Thomas  11

Har Co Corey Ward  12

Chr Co Cory Armstrong  11

Cald Co Cody Traylor  12

Bull Cen Jeremiah Walls  10

Ohio Co Josh Ringkor  12

Mon Co Austin Cincotta

SC Ricky Burgess  12

Cam Co Brandon Dennison  11

Con Ryan Dillon  11

Des Kevin Snyder  11

FC Cody Mann

PD Nick Leddy  10

160

FC John Wolsiefer  11

Lar Co Scott Wheeler  12

NH Ty Wolfe  11

CH Joe Collin  12

Cam Co Tom Brownfield  11

PRP Dakoda Choate  10

DH Brad Denham  12

PD Leo Leddy  12

Sen Lofton Wright  9

Tri Adam Remines  11

Bal Howard Brim  11

Moore James Schneider

SK Ryan Vaughn  11

Un Co Joe Belt  12

Bull Cen Joey Davis

Des Robbie Spann  11

St X David George  10

HC Derek Kirchner

Way Co Coty Sloan  11

Meade Nathan Kelch

171

Eas Ben Rupp  12

Ryle Mason Reid  11

Tri John Florence  12

PD Sheridan Likoy  12

HC Zack Guiler  12

Lar Co Bryant Barnhill  12

Cald Co Curt Martin  12

Whit Co Jaron Singley  12

JH Chris Pitcher  10

SO Cody Lasseigne  11

DH Steve Benson  11

Mc Cen Ryan Harlow  9

SK Matt Neal  10

Un Co Jarrod Burke

NH Marcell Haynes  10

Bull Cen Thomas Salter  12

Wood Co Nolin Cecil  12

FC Kurt Waller  11

Moore Ethan Dunn  11

Ft Knox Sean Garcia  11

189

Wood Co Will Starks  12

NH Mark Jones  11

SC Ryan Kelly  10

Mc Cen Tannen Roe  11

CH Terry Turner  12

SO Ryan Houchens  10

Ohio Co Jarrod Aull  12

Tri Josh Lewis  9

Vall Joe Raleigh  12

Un Co Dionte Wright  11

Law Co Jason Delong  12

Scott Gary Robbins  11

FC Kyle Hardin  11

Dan Evan Hester  10

PD Chase Harber  12

Chr Co Mark Payne  10

JC Ryan Kestner  11

Des John French  11

Har Co Seth Hall  12

Per Co Cen Travis Pennington  12

215

Mc Cen Jacob Watson  12

Laf Matt Green  11

Tri Jordan Whiting  10

Sen Jordan Dockery  12

PD Doug Winter  12

FC Deon Chaney  11

Doss Derek Nickel  11

NH Matt Baker  12

Lar Co Jake Shipp  12

SO Cameron Hartman  11

Ryle Steve Bodenbender  12

Chr Co Donnie Thomas  11

SC Adam Dials  11

Har Co Austin Murdoch  12

Bal Naveed Safi  11

AB Andrew Dillon  12

Cen Ryondrae Wesley

Way Co Tyler Pace  9

Sou Travis Meisner

Des Shane Wentworth  12

285

Wood Co Matt Byrd  12

Old Co Josh Young  12

Ohio Co Adam Burdin  12

Scott Adam Patterson  12

Fair Robby Brown  12

Cam Co Billy Fuller  11

Lar Co Joe Embree  12

Ft Knox Anthony Bailey  11

Mc Cen Chris Espinoza  12

Vall Will Smith  11

JH Jesse Kerrison  12

PD Hunter Eade  12

NH Matt Ballinger  12

New Devon Boxx  11

Ft Camp Zach Rinestine  11

Laf Evan Bullock

Let Co Cen James Baker  12

Mon Co Dennis Coomer

Way Co Brandon Bell  9

SK Tony Turner  11

Team

1 Woodford County

2 Fern Creek

3 Larue County

4 Trinity (Louisville)

5 Union County

6 Seneca

7 Paul Dunbar

8 North Hardin

9 Wayne County

10 Ryle

11 McCreary Central

12 Simon Kenton

13 John Hardin

14 Harrison County

15 Eastern

16 Oldham County

17 Lafayette

18 Henry Clay

19 South Oldham

20 Scott

21 Ohio County

22 Campbell County

23 Sheldon Clark

24 Johnson Central

25 Central Hardin

26 St. Xavier

27 North Oldham

28 Valley

29 Montgomery County

30 Pleasure Ridge Park

31 Christian County

32 Bullitt Central

33 Caldwell County

34 Moore

35 Anderson County

I know it seems to be the understanding that Seeders is going to wrestle 130 but he has been wrestling at 135 so I am not sure it is accurate to rank him in the 130 weight class.  And  with the 3 or 4 region 3 wrestlers that are all almost equally good why Phillips PRP when he lost to Durden/ Southern head to head?

Thanks again for the work you put into the rankings and the time you take to explain your reasoning.

NIce job on the rankings

Conners not even in the top 35.. Wow..

i was just wondering how Vally is ranked 28 and prp and Moore and Southern has all beaten them bad i was just wondering

Ft. Campbell's 119, Zach Bontrager, needs to be ranked somewhere.  I think he has only lost one match this year - to #3 Josh Johnson.  He was the MOW at Hoptown's Orange and Black. He has also beaten #16 Bryce Alexander twice.  Hopkinsville's 189, Dee Allen, beat #7 Jarrod Aull rather convincingly at Caldwell last weekend.

is sullivan planning on staying at 112 or going down to 105

u can take luna off, he really did quit

cory kress is at 145

I know it seems to be the understanding that Seeders is going to wrestle 130 but he has been wrestling at 135 so I am not sure it is accurate to rank him in the 130 weight class.  And  with the 3 or 4 region 3 wrestlers that are all almost equally good why Phillips PRP when he lost to Durden/ Southern head to head?

Thanks again for the work you put into the rankings and the time you take to explain your reasoning.

I agree somewhat on Seeders.  But I decided with this new weight thing that I wasn't going to chase guys and their weight early in the season.  Once the weight changes then I will start taking a closer look at where guys are wrestling.

Phillips is up there because of the win against Allman.  Not sure if he caught him or what (I think Allman came back the next week and really spanked Phillips).  Didn't catch the head-to-head loss to Durden.  Will note it.

i was just wondering how Vally is ranked 28 and prp and Moore and Southern has all beaten them bad i was just wondering

I'll ansewer this one.  Because Ranger has a formula set up for the state tournament which he plugs each individual in that is ranked.  Anyway if your talking about beating Valley in a duel meet, duels are much different than tournaments.  By far Valley has the better individuals that will go farther in the state tournament than any other team in region 3.  It is amazing how the same question is asked every single time.

good job with the rankings again but kyle griffith has told us that he is going to be 140 from here on out

Conners not even in the top 35.. Wow..

Losing to Dixie in the dual last week didn't do anything to help them.  They are pretty young.  We'll see if they move up later in the season after the guys get more mat time in.

good job with the rankings again but kyle griffith has told us that he is going to be 140 from here on out

That's not what I here.  Why would he do that anyway?  To wrestle Peace?  Probably not the best plan.  The weight goes to 137 next week.

Individual rankings look good.  I believe as a team Sheldon Clark is higher than 23rd and Harrison County is also higher than 14th.  Harrison County finished 3rd at the Bourbon Bash right behind Paul Dunbar and Woodford Co.  Sheldon Clark place two spots below them at 5th.  Both teams placed a lot higher that McCeary, who you have at 11, and Henry Clay who you have at 18.  Also watch out for Brad Stafford at 171 from Sheldon Clark he is freshman but placed 3rd at the Bourbon Bash his only loss was to Sheridan Likoy.

the 135 from doss aaron cosgrove is starting to look pretty tough right now too. he lost a tough match to durden in overtime at moore last week he also pinned the allman kid from laffayette that day. tonight he pinned a kid from jeffersonville in a 3 way and really roughed up phillips from prp 12-2 i believe

Individual rankings look good.  I believe as a team Sheldon Clark is higher than 23rd and Harrison County is also higher than 14th.  Harrison County finished 3rd at the Bourbon Bash right behind Paul Dunbar and Woodford Co.  Sheldon Clark place two spots below them at 5th.  Both teams placed a lot higher that McCeary, who you have at 11, and Henry Clay who you have at 18.  Also watch out for Brad Stafford at 171 from Sheldon Clark he is freshman but placed 3rd at the Bourbon Bash his only loss was to Sheridan Likoy.

I don't know about Sheldon Clark.  I think they still have a little to prove.  Third was good from Harrison, but I don't think they were really close to the top 2.  And Woodford had a lot of firepower off the mat.  McCreary wasn't near 100% last weekend.  And Henry Clay will do well at state with Cornett, Zarth, and Guiler scoring a lot of points.

I didn't get the full results.  Who did Stafford beat for 3rd, Singley?

ok i still kno why im 10th its because i havent wrestled yet and im ok with that but why is robbie brown ranked so high he hasnt wrestled eather

I don't know about Sheldon Clark.  I think they still have a little to prove.  Third was good from Harrison, but I don't think they were really close to the top 2.  And Woodford had a lot of firepower off the mat.  McCreary wasn't near 100% last weekend.  And Henry Clay will do well at state with Cornett, Zarth, and Guiler scoring a lot of points.

I didn't get the full results.  Who did Stafford beat for 3rd, Singley?

the 135 from doss aaron cosgrove is starting to look pretty tough right now too. he lost a tough match to durden in overtime at moore last week he also pinned the allman kid from laffayette that day. tonight he pinned a kid from jeffersonville in a 3 way and really roughed up phillips from prp 12-2 i believe

I think the 135 weight class in region three is going to be tough.......There are four wrestlers really going at it.....I think with the exception of Seeders the other three are going to be close everytime.  And you never know how things will progress as they wrestle each other multiple times.

I'll ansewer this one.  Because Ranger has a formula set up for the state tournament which he plugs each individual in that is ranked.  Anyway if your talking about beating Valley in a duel meet, duels are much different than tournaments.  By far Valley has the better individuals that will go farther in the state tournament than any other team in region 3.  It is amazing how the same question is asked every single time.

I think to be fair people may ask multiple questions b/c they did not see a response before - And while everyone respects the formula and recognizes that there has to be one,  I think if a team continually gets beat it comes down to the number of individual wrestlers and at some point it does become a valid question again - you are looking at the ranking of teams as a WHOLE so if a TEAM is being beaten consistently you can question the TEAM ranking. 

But the rankings are done on individual results.  One team may have 5 or 6 ranked kids and end up doing well in tournament with those kids, but either forfeit the other weight classes or have not good at all kids in there and end up losing duals because of that fact.  Kinda like Moore's case, they forfeit 18 points every time they wrestle because of not having three weight classes and so they lose some duals because of it but have only lost once overallwhen you look at head to head matches.  However I do think once state comes along they will end up a bit higher than they are now.

I don't know about Sheldon Clark.  I think they still have a little to prove.  Third was good from Harrison, but I don't think they were really close to the top 2.  And Woodford had a lot of firepower off the mat.  McCreary wasn't near 100% last weekend.  And Henry Clay will do well at state with Cornett, Zarth, and Guiler scoring a lot of points.

I didn't get the full results.  Who did Stafford beat for 3rd, Singley?

yea i think he pined him in the 2nd.

But the rankings are done on individual results.  One team may have 5 or 6 ranked kids and end up doing well in tournament with those kids, but either forfeit the other weight classes or have not good at all kids in there and end up losing duals because of that fact.  Kinda like Moore's case, they forfeit 18 points every time they wrestle because of not having three weight classes and so they lose some duals because of it but have only lost once overallwhen you look at head to head matches.  However I do think once state comes along they will end up a bit higher than they are now.

There is an obvious need for a system and I think this system is fine-I just wanted to point out that the questions are understandable...and I do not want anyone to feel bad for asking questions. 

Last weekend at the Bourbon Bash, McCreary was wrestling with 7 kids

There is an obvious need for a system and I think this system is fine-I just wanted to point out that the questions are understandable...and I do not want anyone to feel bad for asking questions. 

It just seems the same teams keep asking the same questions.  I understand they think they should be higher but there not.  And there is a logical explanation to why they are not, and Ranger has explained it many times.

You could look at it that way-but as I said as the season progresses there are scenarios that seem to lead to legitimate questions of the system.  Plus for some teams that are not the "powerhouse" teams it is very important to be taken seriously.  There is allot of talk about weak regions etc. and when you have kids going to practice and working hard everyday and not always having the success of the bigger programs the validation of the rankings is meaningful.

But you're right the same questions can get tiresome...but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.

I apologize if I was harsh.  I understand what your saying about Region 3.  Region 3 has traditionally been the weakest region, but that is quickly starting to change.  They still have a little bit to go, but over the past couple of years they've closed the gap a considerable amount. 

You could look at it that way-but as I said as the season progresses there are scenarios that seem to lead to legitimate questions of the system.  Plus for some teams that are not the "powerhouse" teams it is very important to be taken seriously.  There is allot of talk about weak regions etc. and when you have kids going to practice and working hard everyday and not always having the success of the bigger programs the validation of the rankings is meaningful.

But you're right the same questions can get tiresome...but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Those that continue to ask the questions over and over seem to be paying too much attention to the rankings.

As a coach if a team members of mine were rattling on about where they are ranked or where the team is ranked I would tell them to stop looking at the rankings.  Sometimes the rankings cause a distraction to those "want-a-be" wrestlers. 

A "want-a-be" wresler are. Those wrestlers that are good enough to place at every tourney and win a few, but don't have the name recognistion as others on more visable teams.

My advise to these type of wrestlers are

1.  To continue to work hard, you are doing something right. 

2.  Continue to place and win tourneys and

3.  By the end of the year when you are standing on the podium and the wrestlers that were ranked higher all year are sitting in the stands.  You will feel much more proud of yourself and your team.

I think most of what you say is true - but of course people pay attention or there would not be rankings in any sport.  And they can be used as a tool for wrestlers who do not get to see or wrestle against some of these teams.  I know wrestlers that in tournaments that do not look ahead in the brackets and I know others who do - I think that it should be what works for each individual.  I think that no one should invest any real time in the rankings but at the same time I think this provides a forum to discuss other wrestlers and other teams and that is a positive.

Well, I'm from the good ole days when we rode dino's to wrestling tourneys.

Back then we had no rankings.  We went to state, and half the time did not know what school our opponent was from let alone his name or if he was any good. 

I also do not coach to compete against a particular person.  We drill and practice moves until we get them as close to perfect as we can.  Then take our A game against our opponent. 

I don't look at opponents films, heck we don't even have the luxury of taping our own team and critique ourselves let alone another teams tendencies.  But once again I'm stuck in the Flinstone Era. :-D

And I do agree that it is good to see what wt. wrestlers are going and what he has done.  It's more for the fans and parents than for the wrestlers though.

I think that PRP should be moved up or Laff. should be moved down. When we wrestled a dual against them we beat them 52-28. It was was a pretty solid victory.

215

Bal  Naveed Safi  11

he moved to cali last year.

Lowsingle, who would you move out of the top 13 to move Harrison up? Those 13 teams ahead of Harrison are pretty good...

Lowsingle, who would you move out of the top 13 to move Harrison up? Those 13 teams ahead of Harrison are pretty good...

Probably McCreary

Does anyone know if Jordan Whiting has wrestled yet this season?

shipp he beat central in a duel >He has a hurt finger ,but maybe you will see him saturday?

If hes wrestling then i will. we duel trinity

I know that the team rankings are often the most questioned part of my rankings.  So for the benefit of those who don't understand and haven't heard this example, I will give a replay.  The best example I have seen of the difference in duals and the state tournament is Lawrence County from 2005.  They probably lost every dual meet that season.  And they only sent 3 kids to state, with 2 winning matches.  BUT, they finished #23 as a team because those 2 kids (Jarius and Jacob Murton) dominated their weight classes on the way to state titles.  Great individuals can carry a team at the state tournament.  Not likely to a team title, but they can score a lot of points.

Which is really why we need to 1. Sanction the duals as the team title (just like Indiana) and 2. Not even keep team scores at Frankfort (just like Indiana). Let's face it, Lawrence County in '05 is the perfect example, two kids pilling up a bunch of team points because they both win. Lawrence Co.  wasn't at the state duals because they did not qualify (great disparity). I will say that more often than not, the state duals winner usually wins the state tournament especially those loaded teams like Woodford, South Oldham (a couple of years ago) and Campbell (a couple of years ago). But what you don't see reflected at Frankfort is an accurate accounting of how good a "team" really is in a head's up scenario against another team (matchups...etc...), so aside from those loaded teams winning, everything from second through last may not be truly representative of actual team placement since the rewarding of points is directly related to the performance of the individual. I just think that sanctioning state duals and putting the right teams in there to battle for the title would bring even more excitement to the sport and give "teams" a chance to earn a state title that perhaps they stand no chance of winning in Frankfort. Now (after that sermon), we'll pass the plate and you can give whatever you feel lead to give. Thank you very much and have a nice day!

Which is really why we need to 1. Sanction the duals as the team title (just like Indiana) and 2. Not even keep team scores at Frankfort (just like Indiana).

1.  The state and coaches association do not want the state to take this event over.  Many teams don't attend the state duals for many reasons and do not want to be forced to attend.

2.  How would the teams not in the state duals know where they stand?  Teams like Lawrence Co. would not know how well their team did, if points were not tallied.

I understand what you're saying, I'm just giving my personal take on the issue. To me, the gulf between duals and individual tournaments is very wide and I think that perhaps the greatest example of the gap is in the scoring itself, which to me gives cause to seperate the two. What I mean is this: the most points an individual can score for his team in any one dual is 6 (assuming a pin only and no awarding of penalty points) whereas in an individual tournament, that one wrestler can pile 'em up if he makes it to the finals and wins (16 alone I believe in the state finals). I believe the "sport" itself has more or less dictated the gap between the two types of tournaments and has (intentionally or not) created "parity" by developing this gap. Rather than ignore this, I would like to see Kentucky grasp this fact and exploit it to the fullest. I understand that we've got teams who have "reasons" for not going to state duals and I also understand that the format in some regions is not condusive to really establishing who the top teams in each region are, especially Region 8 who has probably the greatest travel restrictions due to the large area involved; however, as the sport continues to grow and more teams hopefully come in, I would personlly like this to at least be a goal to strive for. Maybe we can take a lesson from the Middle Schools who (I belive) are making state duals a bigger priority than the high schools. If they indeed are, then those kids are going to go to high school with a different perspective on state duals than some of the status quo who seem to me to be very inept at making any changes in anything that would "rock the boat" so to speak. I surely do not want to digress into my personl opinions about the KHSAA and the KWCA on this board at this time anyway, I'll just gripe to my bride about those since she's a better listener.   

The biggest problem with that is you are just catering to the big schools who stand a chance to win state every year and don't give a team with 3-4 good kids who are going to place in state a chance at saying they are the Nth best team in the state if you don't award points in the state tournament.  So that means every year the "winner" for the state duals is going to be one of probably 4-5 teams and no other teams are going to get recognition at the end of the year for what 4-5 really good individuals can do. 

wrestler92, they are talking about State Duals, not State tournament. Ranger123, keep up the good work. just one question though. why is north moving down in the rankings when you have added even more north wrestlers to the ranking? Also I'm looking forward to the Central duals this weekend, I heard that Union co. and Trinity both want us for a dual. Sound like a great day of wrestling.

The biggest problem with that is you are just catering to the big schools who stand a chance to win state every year and don't give a team with 3-4 good kids who are going to place in state a chance at saying they are the Nth best team in the state if you don't award points in the state tournament.  So that means every year the "winner" for the state duals is going to be one of probably 4-5 teams and no other teams are going to get recognition at the end of the year for what 4-5 really good individuals can do. 

    Wrestler92 you said this much better than I did.  One of the problems in the state is that the small schools are having trouble competing with the large schools.  (When I say small schools I'm talking abou the teams with a small number of participants along with actuall school size). 

    These school have trouble finding tourneys they can attend, (because schools want teams with full teams at thier toureny), and have trouble having dual meets, (its hard to have a dual when you only have 5-7 kids on the team).

    The only way to create excitement at these schools and draw attention to them is for them to place high at the state tourney as a team.  If the coach can take a top 10 or top 25 placement at the state tourney back to their school, then the school is more likely to give them more support.  Whereas if this team takes 5 kids to the state tourney and there is no placement, there is no fanfare in the school. 

wrestler92, they are talking about State Duals, not State tournament. Ranger123, keep up the good work. just one question though. why is north moving down in the rankings when you have added even more north wrestlers to the ranking? Also I'm looking forward to the Central duals this weekend, I heard that Union co. and Trinity both want us for a dual. Sound like a great day of wrestling.

Well apparently you haven't been paying attention to the whole thread, the debate was between the state tournament and the state duals, not just the state duals.  Ranger123 is doing a good job I was just trying to clarify the situation so that maybe everyone would understand what was being talked about, I guess it didn't work if you didnt' understand it.

I agree somewhat on Seeders.  But I decided with this new weight thing that I wasn't going to chase guys and their weight early in the season.  Once the weight changes then I will start taking a closer look at where guys are wrestling.

Phillips is up there because of the win against Allman.  Not sure if he caught him or what (I think Allman came back the next week and really spanked Phillips).  Didn't catch the head-to-head loss to Durden.  Will note it.

Phillips did not lose to durden. it was the central scrimmage. Phillips won 5-3. the situation was on the central coach. he was the ref. and Phillips was not awarded his near fall at the end of the match. then Phillips and durden went into OT. and durden took Phillips down. that is the mistake everyone has been making. thought i would clear that up. yes Phillips did get beat by allman. 16-1 i think he was drained after that close match with seeders i believe that was 9-5

That's not what I here.  Why would he do that anyway?  To wrestle Peace?  Probably not the best plan.  The weight goes to 137 next week.

He said that he was just tired of cutting weight and quite frankly after he lost to Brown i think he felt like he didnt have much of a reason for staying at 135

a question i see the new rankings are out and you should get a lot of praise for your time and effort because you do a very good job  and with that said i dont understand some of your  weights orders of #1 thru the top ten  some kids havent even wrestled yet this season and they stay in the top 10 witch i think the kids in the top ten that are wrestling and that have you have put there should move in front of the kids that are not even on the mat. not that (veech-lewis-luna and if we look i am shure there my be a few more that we are missing should and would be ranked in the top ten easyly but they need to be wrestling. and then what about the kids that hit a little road block and had one or two bad matchs be for x-mas and they still remain at the top of thier weught when there may be kids below them who they lost to or have not wresteld yet with a better record or still remain unbeaton and have wrestled several of the top ranked kids already and beat them and some good  out of state kids as well (just a few zeppa beat chue-butler beat ashbrook last week and i do understand that ashbrook beat him the first but that score was 5-4 or something like that and then butler beats him 4-0 so witch one is better? i know you can only go with what you get back from the wrestling community and that makes it tough  heres an idea why not use the same formula that we use for seeding at tourneys then see how much if any some of the weights would change it would be interesting to see    AS I SAID YOU DO GREAT JOB JUST STIRING THE POT            MERRY CHRISMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR

Hakeyeofold;

    I was just wondering what that criteria for seeding would be.  Most of the time at the important tounerys, District (when we still had them) and now Region.  It is the coaches argue it out with little or no criteria that they obide by. 

    Are you insinuating that Banks should move down the list?  He is out with a broken hand (or something).  With the exception of maybe Cooper no-one has earned the right to move above him, he earned that spot last year.

    When kids have split it comes down to opinion.  5-4 or 4-0 are both minor decisions.  Just because one defeated the other by more points does not make him better.  ie: What would happen if Butler had gotten pinned by Phillips (I use him becaue he is at the bottom of the llist) and the next time Butler defeats him 10-0.  Should Phillips still be ranked above him?

    I am not a huge fan of rankings but I know that using seeding criteria would be almost imposible.  1st and formost you need the records of these kids.  How is Ranger ever going to be able to do this???

Hawkeye - I understand where you are coming from.  I have removed a ton of kids that haven't been wrestling, but have left in the guys that I think will be back and get into competitive form.  Lewis, for example, is never one to be in good shape so the time off the mat shouldn't be a huge difference (until he faces Voth).  But yes, at some point the guys have to drop.  How far is the big question.  When guys split I only have one rule of thumb.  Assuming the wins are comparable, like minors, I like wins in tournaments, especially finals over duals.  That's the format under which they will meet in Frankfort so I give it a little more weight.  After that our information is just too unorganized to use any real criteria.  Sometimes you can use common opponents, but again we usually do not have all of the results.

ranger 123

i was wondering how often you updated your rankings? i think some of these kids go to their regional rankins, which are looking to be pretty much in line.then they go to these state rankings and see kids that have been beat pretty handily by other kids in their own region.i am not going to single out the kids but you can see where it all comes from.i tell our kids to just wrestle and it will all work itself out.the truth is that these rankings have a lot of weight in the seeding meetings,and it makes the kids feel like they are getting some recognition for their hard work.thanks for your patience with these kids and keep up the good work.we do appreciate your rankings

ranger 123

.the truth is that these rankings have a lot of weight in the seeding meetings

I'm not sure what seeding meetings you are attending, but in the 20 years I've been coaching they have not been successfully used.  Most of the time when someone tries to use them they are scoffed.

You are correct in that many kids wait with baited breath to see if they are on the rankings.  And from a spectator view it is great, but from a coaching standpoint I personally don't like my kids ranked and tell my kids to ignore them.

I personally use them to find out what wt. everyone is going and try to determine what tourneys I should try to attend for the competition level that I want.  Ranger does seem to keep more accurate account of what wt. each wrestler is going.

GRAPLEROFOLD   

the criteria would be (sate placing-state qualifer-record- head to head- commin opp.) then the arguments

SO no in that case of bank's may be he should still be on top but several athletes dont come back the same as they where prior to the ingery but that is yet to be seen. but as for some of the other kids they have not wrestled WHY ? (grades- quit and came back out or for what ever reasons) and the kids out there busting there buts deserves there time in the lime light as long as it last. as have wrestling all my life i know and so should you that it dosent matter where you ranked  any way the cream allways rises to the top anyway but it doses matter to those kids who may be the only stardom they ever get in a sport they love  as i said ranger dose aout standing job and should be praised by the entire wrestling community