I’m looking at the brackets and I can’t understand how they landed where they did . 

2 hours ago, Checkmate said:

I’m looking at the brackets and I can’t understand how they landed where they did . 

An explanation would be nice. At 121 For example I see 2nd place finishers wrestling each other in the first round? Same with 3rd and 4th place finishers.

Only the regional winners get seeded, we have 5 regions so 5(1) seeds. (2) and (3)’s in this format will wrestle in the first round in a 16 man bracket with rat tails. When you get to the quarterfinal round you should have five (1) seeds and (3) 2 seeds left. I’m not part of the board just a coach that understands with this format and (5) regions that it’s the only way to format the bracket fairly. The cream will rise to the top as they say. And let those kids of ours settle it on the mats.

1 hour ago, twenhofelcoach said:

Only the regional winners get seeded, we have 5 regions so 5(1) seeds. (2) and (3)’s in this format will wrestle in the first round in a 16 man bracket with rat tails. When you get to the quarterfinal round you should have five (1) seeds and (3) 2 seeds left. I’m not part of the board just a coach that understands with this format and (5) regions that it’s the only way to format the bracket fairly. The cream will rise to the top as they say. And let those kids of ours settle it on the mats.

So will there be a seed meeting to seed the Region champs? As the brackets stand right now there are Region champs seeded over other Region Champs who beat them. Example Region 5 champ seeded #1, but lost head to head during the season to Region 2 champ who is seeded #3. Seems like the Regional Champs should be seeded by some criteria. Particularly if we’re seeding kids by criteria during regular season tournaments.

The seeding meeting was conducted last night for all weights.  Head to head, common opponents, standings at same events and last year state placer criteria were used.  Which weight class are you talking about?

The only issues I see is kids from the same region wrestling each other in the first round.  I would hope they fix that in the brackets by the time state roles around. 

33 minutes ago, Uncle Spam said:

So will there be a seed meeting to seed the Region champs? As the brackets stand right now there are Region champs seeded over other Region Champs who beat them. Example Region 5 champ seeded #1, but lost head to head during the season to Region 2 champ who is seeded #3. Seems like the Regional Champs should be seeded by some criteria. Particularly if we’re seeding kids by criteria during regular season tournaments.

As I look at the brackets, Region 5 only has  (2) overall number one seeds. Sebastian Vega at 75 and Tanner Spaulding at (86). Sorry Uncle Spam, both of those kids deserve their (1) overall ranking. I’m not 100% sure if you understand how seeding a bracket works or not. If you’re a coach, ask some fellow coaches on your situation and they will help you out with how it works. 

4 minutes ago, twenhofelcoach said:

As I look at the brackets, Region 5 only has  (2) overall number one seeds. Sebastian Vega at 75 and Tanner Spaulding at (86). Sorry Uncle Spam, both of those kids deserve their (1) overall ranking. I’m not 100% sure if you understand how seeding a bracket works or not. If you’re a coach, ask some fellow coaches on your situation and they will help you out with how it works. 

I was just throwing out random regions as examples trying generalize my question.  I’m not going to point out specific examples, but there are some examples of kids being a seed higher then a kid who beat them. I’m from Ohio, was an elite level wrestler back in the day, and my knowledge of the sport runs deep. I have a nephew in KY and was just curious about how the seeds/brackets were decided upon for state.  Like you had stated earlier and like I’ve told my nephew.....seeds, bracket placement, etc. shouldn’t matter. If you’re the best you’ll welcome any challenger and be prepared to beat anyone that steps into that circle with you.

Good luck to all this year’s qualifiers and I’m looking forward to a competitive tournament!

3 minutes ago, Uncle Spam said:

I was just throwing out random regions as examples trying generalize my question.  I’m not going to point out specific examples, but there are some examples of kids being a seed higher then a kid who beat them. I’m from Ohio, was an elite level wrestler back in the day, and my knowledge of the sport runs deep. I have a nephew in KY and was just curious about how the seeds/brackets were decided upon for state.  Like you had stated earlier and like I’ve told my nephew.....seeds, bracket placement, etc. shouldn’t matter. If you’re the best you’ll welcome any challenger and be prepared to beat anyone that steps into that circle with you.

 

Good luck to all this year’s qualifiers and I’m looking forward to a competitive tournament!

Seed criteria was presented last night in the see meeting, (1) was head to head during season, in which the last match they wrestled if they wrestled twice in the year was credited. Example both went 1-1 against each other, then it came down to last match wrestled. (2) was common opponents. If they were 1-1 against each other then a common opponent was the denominator. If no head to head and no common opponents then it went to last year state placement/state qualifier. And lastly if no criteria was available a coaches vote during the seed meeting. Hope that helps explain the criteria. I sat through it entirely and would agree on the seed placements for each kid. Problem is we don’t have events during regular season at this level that every team is allowed to attend. Some have restrictions on travel from their schools. And it takes an act of Congress to be allowed to go to some of these events that we all have through the year. Being from Ohio, I’m sure you  witnessed this with Northeastern Ohio teams not Wrestling Southwestern Ohio teams all year until they get to the State Tournament. I wish your nephew all the luck as well, toe the line and wrestle your butt off. Go bust up a bracket and get your recognition young man.

7 minutes ago, twenhofelcoach said:

Seed criteria was presented last night in the see meeting, (1) was head to head during season, in which the last match they wrestled if they wrestled twice in the year was credited. Example both went 1-1 against each other, then it came down to last match wrestled. (2) was common opponents. If they were 1-1 against each other then a common opponent was the denominator. If no head to head and no common opponents then it went to last year state placement/state qualifier. And lastly if no criteria was available a coaches vote during the seed meeting. Hope that helps explain the criteria. I sat through it entirely and would agree on the seed placements for each kid. Problem is we don’t have events during regular season at this level that every team is allowed to attend. Some have restrictions on travel from their schools. And it takes an act of Congress to be allowed to go to some of these events that we all have through the year. Being from Ohio, I’m sure you  witnessed this with Northeastern Ohio teams not Wrestling Southwestern Ohio teams all year until they get to the State Tournament. I wish your nephew all the luck as well, toe the line and wrestle your butt off. Go bust up a bracket and get your recognition young man.

Gotcha. Yeah that all makes sense. And yes. I was Southwest Ohio. Only time we saw the Northeast kids other than in the state tournament were at in-state national tournaments like the Ironman, Top Gun, or the Midwest Classic.

Thanks again for the breakdown coach. Good luck to your boys as well! 

It is interesting to see how things panned out.  Ex: If you look at 152, how does Oscar Adams (a state MS placer last year) get the three seed, behind a kid who took 6th in his weight class at youth state last year (Church, the overall one seed)?  Oscar's side of the bracket has Kiser (who rolled through KY all year) and Scarborough (who has beaten half of the one seeds at 152 and 168... and Kiser).  Just interesting, I agree that the cream should rise to the top, but that should be in the finals, not the quarterfinals. Someone like Kiser should be running into the weakest one seed, not the former #1 at 168 in the quarters. IMHO

3 hours ago, twenhofelcoach said:

Only the regional winners get seeded, we have 5 regions so 5(1) seeds. (2) and (3)’s in this format will wrestle in the first round in a 16 man bracket with rat tails. When you get to the quarterfinal round you should have five (1) seeds and (3) 2 seeds left. I’m not part of the board just a coach that understands with this format and (5) regions that it’s the only way to format the bracket fairly. The cream will rise to the top as they say. And let those kids of ours settle it on the mats.

The regional winners seeds aren’t the problem. I haven’t looked at all the weight classes yet, but I can tell you that at 121, the above is not happening. There are 3’a wrestling 4’s and 2’s wrestling 2’s in the first round.

8 minutes ago, that guy said:

It is interesting to see how things panned out.  Ex: If you look at 152, how does Oscar Adams (a state MS placer last year) get the three seed, behind a kid who took 6th in his weight class at youth state last year (Church, the overall one seed)?  Oscar's side of the bracket has Kiser (who rolled through KY all year) and Scarborough (who has beaten half of the one seeds at 152 and 168... and Kiser).  Just interesting, I agree that the cream should rise to the top, but that should be in the finals, not the quarterfinals. Someone like Kiser should be running into the weakest one seed, not the former #1 at 168 in the quarters. IMHO

With Kiser not winning his region, this happens. Look at 70 for example. (2) of the top “ranked” Kid’s in the state wrestle each other in the quarters as well. If you don’t win your region you have a tougher draw. And that’s what the state tournament is about fellas. You only seed the regional winners then the 2,3,4’s follow as they may. And to be honest 152 will probably be changed since Christian County’s coach I believe missed the seed meeting. Believe me fellas, we as coaches and the board try to make it as fair and even as they can. But this is the state tournament and at the quarters it should be some exciting matches the rest of the way out. And this is better then what the high school does with the blind draw.

10 minutes ago, Alf said:

The regional winners seeds aren’t the problem. I haven’t looked at all the weight classes yet, but I can tell you that at 121, the above is not happening. There are 3’a wrestling 4’s and 2’s wrestling 2’s in the first round.

The 3’s Wrestling 4’s are the rat tail rounds. Once again that’s going to happen with the way the brackets are formed. 2’s vs2’s have to happen as well. Take in mind that the (1)’s have earned the easier draw and their first match unless it’s a bye should be against the lower seeds (a 3 or a 4). The 2’s battle it out for a chance at a 1 seed in the quarter final round.

17 minutes ago, twenhofelcoach said:

The 3’s Wrestling 4’s are the rat tail rounds. Once again that’s going to happen with the way the brackets are formed. 2’s vs2’s have to happen as well. Take in mind that the (1)’s have earned the easier draw and their first match unless it’s a bye should be against the lower seeds (a 3 or a 4). The 2’s battle it out for a chance at a 1 seed in the quarter final round.

And looking at 121, it’s one of the more balanced brackets out of all of them. Every one seed and every 2 seed has a bye in the first round. 4/4,3/4,3/4,3/4 is what I’m seeing in the rat tails. 1/4 or 3, 2/2, 1/3,1/3,1/4or3,2/2,2/3,1/4 or3 is what I’m seeing in the round of 16. No other way of balancing it out other then that.

I haven’t been a part of middle school wrestling for a few years now, but it sounds like to me that having 5 Regions is a huge problem. Obviously it’s too late this season, but this needs to be addressed. Either go back to 4 Regions taking the top 4 finishers, or go to 8 Regions and only take the top 2. Just make the new 8 Regions the old 8 Districts. Having pigtail rounds at State just doesn’t sound right. 

5 minutes ago, twenhofelcoach said:

And looking at 121, it’s one of the more balanced brackets out of all of them. Every one seed and every 2 seed has a bye in the first round. 4/4,3/4,3/4,3/4 is what I’m seeing in the rat tails. 2/3, 2/3, 2/2, 2/2 is what I’m seeing in the round of 16. No other way of balancing it out other then that.

I see you’re point. I guess its just so different than I am used to. I’m having trouble wrapping my head around. It doesn’t help that I’m not real bright!

I wish we could create some new tournaments that would let these boys ,and girls see each other  more throughout the year .Asking teams to travel 3 hours each weekend is tough,and in the winter sometimes impossible , but maybe 1 or 2 big ones each year that would be worth the trip for everyone! That would make for a lot better discussion ,and possibly  help with seeding come State. As for the brackets ,it’s hard to watch the three best kids in any bracket fight for one spot in the finals ,but everyone pretty much agrees that the best wrestler should win no matter what . A true second place match would be nice ,but I still live in the real world ..lol 

good luck to all !!

Thanks to all of the coaches for explaining the process .

I know all of the parents really appreciate what you do for our kids and that you go to bat for them each time .

I hope that we can keep Kentucky numbers growing and catch up to those guys across the river !! 

52 minutes ago, Checkmate said:

I wish we could create some new tournaments that would let these boys ,and girls see each other  more throughout the year .Asking teams to travel 3 hours each weekend is tough,and in the winter sometimes impossible , but maybe 1 or 2 big ones each year that would be worth the trip for everyone! That would make for a lot better discussion ,and possibly  help with seeding come State. As for the brackets ,it’s hard to watch the three best kids in any bracket fight for one spot in the finals ,but everyone pretty much agrees that the best wrestler should win no matter what . A true second place match would be nice ,but I still live in the real world ..lol 

good luck to all !!

Yes, I’m voting we could move State Duals to the regular season and get it more centrally located so that more teams can come. I think it would be neat to do a two day State Duals in the beginning of February. Have pools the first day and then  bracket it out the second. I wonder if that would spark interest?

1 hour ago, Nike Man said:

I haven’t been a part of middle school wrestling for a few years now, but it sounds like to me that having 5 Regions is a huge problem. Obviously it’s too late this season, but this needs to be addressed. Either go back to 4 Regions taking the top 4 finishers, or go to 8 Regions and only take the top 2. Just make the new 8 Regions the old 8 Districts. Having pigtail rounds at State just doesn’t sound right. 

We went to 5 regions this year because of the travel situation for teams. Not enough teams to support 8 regions. With teams showing up one year and dropping the next it’s rough at the middle school level to be honest. My suggestion would be (6)regions and (5)qualifiers. Would get us up to 30 kids at State with only 2 byes, thus allowing balanced brackets with an even number of regions in which need to create balance when seeding.

2 hours ago, twenhofelcoach said:

The 3’s Wrestling 4’s are the rat tail rounds. Once again that’s going to happen with the way the brackets are formed. 2’s vs2’s have to happen as well. Take in mind that the (1)’s have earned the easier draw and their first match unless it’s a bye should be against the lower seeds (a 3 or a 4). The 2’s battle it out for a chance at a 1 seed in the quarter final round.

I get the rat tails, but region opponents still should not meet in the rat tail regardless.  It should only happen if it is an alternate fill in from your same region for a spot from a different region.     

24 minutes ago, plantmanky1 said:

I get the rat tails, but region opponents still should not meet in the rat tail regardless.  It should only happen if it is an alternate fill in from your same region for a spot from a different region.     

They fixed that problem already from what I looked at

Let’s just wrestle!!!!!!

I like the way you think 

2 hours ago, twenhofelcoach said:

We went to 5 regions this year because of the travel situation for teams. Not enough teams to support 8 regions. With teams showing up one year and dropping the next it’s rough at the middle school level to be honest. My suggestion would be (6)regions and (5)qualifiers. Would get us up to 30 kids at State with only 2 byes, thus allowing balanced brackets with an even number of regions in which need to create balance when seeding.

That would get my vote!

You honestly need to win region if you want a 1 seed at the state tournament. Seeding at State isn't done off rankings. Its done off regional champs. Some regions 3 and 4 seeds could have took 1st in a different region . Some regions are harder than others. It varies from year to year and weight class to weight class. Ask Ryle and Walton. 75 lb weight class might be the toughest division this year from top to bottom. When the dust settles only one will stand on the top podium anyway. Let the cream of the crop rise to the top. good luck ladies and gentlemen. 

Really...  who’s at 75 other then Vega ? Did Walton even have a 75lber ? You might want to check your weight classes 

Just going by what I’ve seen the Ashland kid is a beast now me saying that I have not seen Vega but I have seen the Ashland 75 pounder 

On 1/22/2019 at 10:20 AM, twenhofelcoach said:

With Kiser not winning his region, this happens. Look at 70 for example. (2) of the top “ranked” Kid’s in the state wrestle each other in the quarters as well. If you don’t win your region you have a tougher draw. And that’s what the state tournament is about fellas. You only seed the regional winners then the 2,3,4’s follow as they may. And to be honest 152 will probably be changed since Christian County’s coach I believe missed the seed meeting. Believe me fellas, we as coaches and the board try to make it as fair and even as they can. But this is the state tournament and at the quarters it should be some exciting matches the rest of the way out. And this is better then what the high school does with the blind draw.

Lane Kiser just owned Preston Church at the State Duals. Kiser was beating Church 14-3 and then Kiser decked him. Yeah to be fair to Adams, Adams should be seeded 1st

1 hour ago, Uncle Spam said:

Lane Kiser just owned Preston Church at the State Duals. Kiser was beating Church 14-3 and then Kiser decked him. Yeah to be fair to Adams, Adams should be seeded 1st

This is why State Duals would be great to have during the season, teams actually get to see other teams from across the state. Already see a couple of upsets and that helps with rankings and seeding. And they missed the seeding at 152 pretty badly of the regional champs. Hopefully they will change that bracket for the kids at that weight classes sake.

1 hour ago, twenhofelcoach said:

This is why State Duals would be great to have during the season, teams actually get to see other teams from across the state. Already see a couple of upsets and that helps with rankings and seeding. And they missed the seeding at 152 pretty badly of the regional champs. Hopefully they will change that bracket for the kids at that weight classes sake.

So will there be an opportunity to reseed?  152 was a huge miss, I went to State Duals to specifically watch this match and it wasn't even close (nor was Church's match against Anderson's 168).  Again, I agree that the cream will rise to the top, but the best wrestlers shouldn't be lumped into one side of the bracket, it just makes for a weak finals match. 

1 hour ago, that guy said:

So will there be an opportunity to reseed?  152 was a huge miss, I went to State Duals to specifically watch this match and it wasn't even close (nor was Church's match against Anderson's 168).  Again, I agree that the cream will rise to the top, but the best wrestlers shouldn't be lumped into one side of the bracket, it just makes for a weak finals match. 

The only people who can change that for the better is the board and the five coaches representing the five regional winners at this point. I am neither, it would come down to them

From what I understand. Some teams or individuals wouldn't compete in State Duels in the past, it wasn't worth the risk of losing a overall one seed. Seems petty. But its smart. That's why they were seeded before state duels. So everyone would agree to attend State duels. I could be wrong. So don't quote me. But that is my understanding of why the seeding happened before State duals.

And they still don’t show up!!!

2 hours ago, TheScrambler said:

From what I understand. Some teams or individuals wouldn't compete in State Duels in the past, it wasn't worth the risk of losing a overall one seed. Seems petty. But its smart. That's why they were seeded before state duels. So everyone would agree to attend State duels. I could be wrong. So don't quote me. But that is my understanding of why the seeding happened before State duals.

Seeding has always been the Monday night after regionals. State Duals has truly nothing to do with the seeding of state.  But if it were held in season and not in between 2 postseason events it would help dramatically. I personally don’t agree with having it in between the post season tournaments of regionals and state. Have it the last weekend of regular season and do it like high school. Have 2 divisions and invite 12 teams each division. Teams lose kids after regionals. Just my 2 cents

On ‎1‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 10:33 PM, Checkmate said:

I’m looking at the brackets and I can’t understand how they landed where they did . 

interested in how to see the brackets for the MS State Tourney

57 minutes ago, SnapDrag285 said:

interested in how to see the brackets for the MS State Tourney

Track wrestling 

Thank you sir. 

For years there has been argument about seeding both the high school and middle school state tournaments.  The middle school powers that be decided to take on this task.  Now that it is in effect there are complaining about the seeding.  

This has been my point for years.  There is no way that it can be done accurately and fairly.  There are always people who think that mistakes were made or whatever.  Its close to impossible to accurately seed the state tourney, not enough wrestling across the state for it to be done.  This is why I am glad the high school has not tried to accomplish this impossible task. At least in a random draw there can be no claims of bias. 

I do have one question however.  How is it that a #1 and a #2 from the same region are on the same side of the bracket.  This has happened at 113 for region 5.  I see this and there are people out there who think that the Ryle girl could win it all yet she is on the same side of the bracket with the one who defeated her at region.  I thought the one thing for certain was that the 1 and 2 from the same region would be separated just in case they are the best 2 in the wt. class. 

1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:

For years there has been argument about seeding both the high school and middle school state tournaments.  The middle school powers that be decided to take on this task.  Now that it is in effect there are complaining about the seeding.  

This has been my point for years.  There is no way that it can be done accurately and fairly.  There are always people who think that mistakes were made or whatever.  Its close to impossible to accurately seed the state tourney, not enough wrestling across the state for it to be done.  This is why I am glad the high school has not tried to accomplish this impossible task. At least in a random draw there can be no claims of bias. 

I do have one question however.  How is it that a #1 and a #2 from the same region are on the same side of the bracket.  This has happened at 113 for region 5.  I see this and there are people out there who think that the Ryle girl could win it all yet she is on the same side of the bracket with the one who defeated her at region.  I thought the one thing for certain was that the 1 and 2 from the same region would be separated just in case they are the best 2 in the wt. class. 

My understanding is that outside of the 5 regional champs, all of the other spots are filled via random draw.  The true answer to this question seems to me to even out the regions and then go to 1 vs 4 and 2 vs 3 and then have a set rotation of regions for each seed spot for each bracket but also breaking up each region's 1s and 2s to opposite sides of each bracket.  It seems pretty simple, but I think we'd have to move back to 4 regions or move up to 8 regions.

2 hours ago, that guy said:

My understanding is that outside of the 5 regional champs, all of the other spots are filled via random draw.  The true answer to this question seems to me to even out the regions and then go to 1 vs 4 and 2 vs 3 and then have a set rotation of regions for each seed spot for each bracket but also breaking up each region's 1s and 2s to opposite sides of each bracket.  It seems pretty simple, but I think we'd have to move back to 4 regions or move up to 8 regions.

It is that simple with 16 wrestler brackets, but you now have 20 wrestler brackets so that logic is now out of sync. 

54 minutes ago, plantmanky1 said:

It is that simple with 16 wrestler brackets, but you now have 20 wrestler brackets so that logic is now out of sync. 

Go back to 16-man bracket... boom fixed. What are the odds that 17-20 are going to medal?  Almost zero. So why dilute the pool with extra wrestlers?

Folks, this is tough.

I have been around youth and middle school wrestling in KY for a few years, and I applaud the dudes that put forth the effort to have the best MS state tournament possible.

KY is a loooooong state. Paducah to Ashland is a long way, and you cannot get to Prestonsburg from here. Not all meets are in Trackwrestling so not all matches are considered in seeding.

We (royal We, all of us) have to keep an open mind and a clear vision of what is ahead.....HS wrestling. These MS kids bust their butts and want to be the best. It is up to us to keep them motivated and passionate about wrestling, regardless of how the brackets sort out.

It is far from perfect, but I believe the folks putting it together are trying their best to make a fair and exciting tournament.

Good luck to everyone tomorrow.

4 hours ago, that guy said:

Go back to 16-man bracket... boom fixed. What are the odds that 17-20 are going to medal?  Almost zero. So why dilute the pool with extra wrestlers?

How do you evenly and fairly put together a 16 man bracket with 5 regions?  Some region placers have to get left out, or you only take the top 3, and have a bye.  The math simply doesn’t work.  And expanding to a 32 man bracket by taking the top 6 makes it tough to do the tourney in one day.  Not to mention some regions don’t even have 6 guys in some weight classes.  

6 hours ago, rjs4470 said:

How do you evenly and fairly put together a 16 man bracket with 5 regions?  Some region placers have to get left out, or you only take the top 3, and have a bye.  The math simply doesn’t work.  And expanding to a 32 man bracket by taking the top 6 makes it tough to do the tourney in one day.  Not to mention some regions don’t even have 6 guys in some weight classes.  

Go back to 4 regions...  4 regions, top 4 placers. 

I guess my point is that seeding with incomplete information (or no relevant information at all) is not fair to the kids, randomized seeding is not fair either. The most fair way to do it is to have brackets that are set in stone, region A’s 1 vs region B’s 4, region C’s 3 vs region D’s 4 and then rotate. 

14 hours ago, that guy said:

I guess my point is that seeding with incomplete information (or no relevant information at all) is not fair to the kids, randomized seeding is not fair either. The most fair way to do it is to have brackets that are set in stone, region A’s 1 vs region B’s 4, region C’s 3 vs region D’s 4 and then rotate. 

I agree....but only if at Region each team has a limit of 2 wrestlers per weight class. Some regions can't fill a bracket but others are overflowing. Just like high school has JV, MS has youth.