Has there ever been a discussion regarding assessment of the officials? This will asure the best officials the state has to offer will be on the mat at state. The kids have to earn the right, official should as well.  

Simply send out a list of all officials interested in officiating state tournament series. Coaches can rank officials performances. Based on knowledge, professionalism, maturity, experience and over all ability under fire. 

Coaches will only critique those they have been exposed to.

Opinions please.

Great idea. Some states even allow coaches to "scratch" certain refs so they are not allowed to work the matches for their team at the State Finals. (Not certain if it is allowed here.)

Just now, 8798 said:

Great idea. Some states even allow coaches to "scratch" certain refs so they are not allowed to work the matches for their team at the State Finals. (Not certain if it is allowed here.)

Agreed you should have the ability to scratch a ref.

I'm not here to bash the Ref's.  I understand this is a paid position so they should be held accountable.  I also understand they can't see everything.  If the state is not going to seed this tournament at the very least there should be 2 ref's from the quarterfinals on.  These kids should not be penalized in a scramble because the ref is either out of position or afraid to correct himself.

Missouri has retired officials evaluate current officials. Regions are allowed to select officials from a possible candidate list. A "No" by any team automatically rules that official out for that region. They can be put on ballot for state. From quarters on there are 2 officials on the mat.

7 minutes ago, Chris Duke said:

I'm not here to bash the Ref's.  I understand this is a paid position so they should be held accountable.  I also understand they can't see everything.  If the state is not going to seed this tournament at the very least there should be 2 ref's from the quarterfinals on.  These kids should not be penalized in a scramble because the ref is either out of position or afraid to correct himself.

Not the intent of this post to bash anyone. Just a discussion to possibly improve the tournament experience for all concerned. 

I believe there is some evaluation process currently in place. Not sure how effective or complete it is. I do like the idea of some sort of scratch list. Or at a minimum a list of officials who should always have an asst. 

29 minutes ago, Chris Duke said:

I'm not here to bash the Ref's.  I understand this is a paid position so they should be held accountable.  I also understand they can't see everything.  If the state is not going to seed this tournament at the very least there should be 2 ref's from the quarterfinals on.  These kids should not be penalized in a scramble because the ref is either out of position or afraid to correct himself.

Sounds like you saw one of our matches ;-)

3 minutes ago, Ranger123 said:

I believe there is some evaluation process currently in place. Not sure how effective or complete it is. I do like the idea of some sort of scratch list. Or at a minimum a list of officials who should always have an asst. 

If indeed there is a process I believe coaches should want to be a part of it.

1 hour ago, Chris Duke said:

I'm not here to bash the Ref's.  I understand this is a paid position so they should be held accountable.  I also understand they can't see everything.  If the state is not going to seed this tournament at the very least there should be 2 ref's from the quarterfinals on.  These kids should not be penalized in a scramble because the ref is either out of position or afraid to correct himself.

Without seeding, I like the two refs starting in the quarters as well but the second ref actually has to be "engaged" and in position to assist with the match. For example, there were back to back finals matches that locking hands should've been called (at least twice in both matches) and in both matches the calls weren't even brought to attention/discussed. How beneficial were those second refs in those matches??? I know we don't want the refs to decide matches but is it not the same as not calling obvious penalties.

An issue I saw is that the second ref is basically superfluous in Kentucky the majority of the time. There was a heavyweight match where a takedown wasn’t scored because neither ref was watching the clock, there was also a noncall in a finals match where a secondary ref needs to step up and say, “yes that’s the rule.” It’s frustrating because this past state tournament I saw very good refs make mistakes they shouldn’t have had to make. I know that there is an issue with keeping our ref numbers up but just like with coaching just because we know and respect each other doesn’t mean we can’t push each other to do better. Some of the best refs in the country are here in Kentucky, but even then mistakes are made.

Consistency of calls needs improvement. When you have  a ref disqualify a kid for a particular move/hold during season then allow a kid to pin another in the state tournament with the same move/hold, something isn’t right.  Either the wording of that rule is too vague or the ref doesn’t understand the rule. 

Also, I know video reviews would be nearly impossible for all matches at State but at the very least the finals should have that option. Our kids work hard to reach that opportunity and deserve every chance to earn the title with the least amount of human error.

You guys are bringing up valid issues. So back to the original topic. What measures would everyone like to see in place? What will inhance the wrestling experience?

Video replay will be hard to justify. 

Is video replay used by any high school association?

27 minutes ago, Josh_Claywell said:

Is video replay used by any high school association?

It looks like Alabama, New Jersey, Minnesota and Texas are using it for football,basketball and hockey. No mention of wrestling.  And all are trials only.

I believe the use of instant replay in wrestling would cause more problems than solve. I’m sure some coaches would abuse it.  Kids tired! “I think he was in bounds on the takedown” let’s review. As 1 example. 

New rule change this year in football video review can be used in post season only. Wrestling rules hasn't met yet

The same ref that caused my boy to lose the region finals match. Ref my kids blood round and also made a few bad calls that caused him to lose that match also. Another thing I would love your opinions on. Should a ref be referring if he’s alumni of the county that’s holding the region. He ref 90% of that county finals matches. To me that’s a conflict of interest. Can I get your opinions on that topic?

A coaches scratch list wont work in KY currently, there are not enough officials to start with.  You allow coaches to scratch, you want have any for the state tournament. 

Having asst refs at Quarterfinals is a good start but why start there, halfway through the tournament, if you going to do that, do it from match 1 of the state tournament.  However I guess the downside of that is if coaches are not happy with the refs at the tournament now, adding more that they wont be happy with doesnt do much. 

Video replay is never a good idea at the High School or below level.  

Would you all consider this a takedown at the 2:07 mark? 

https://www.thegleaner.com/videos/sports/2019/02/17/highlights-union-countys-state-wrestling-championship/2901267002/

27 minutes ago, ukpridewrestler11 said:

Would you all consider this a takedown at the 2:07 mark? 

https://www.thegleaner.com/videos/sports/2019/02/17/highlights-union-countys-state-wrestling-championship/2901267002/

Going to have to be more specific on which one of the 3 matches we are supposed to be looking at. 

1 minute ago, plantmanky1 said:

Going to have to be more specific on which one of the 3 matches we are supposed to be looking at. 

160 Finals match. Zane Brown vs Stephen Little

49 minutes ago, ukpridewrestler11 said:

Would you all consider this a takedown at the 2:07 mark? 

https://www.thegleaner.com/videos/sports/2019/02/17/highlights-union-countys-state-wrestling-championship/2901267002/

That’s two..... 

14 minutes ago, JC1 said:

That’s two..... 

It wasn’t called. Score stayed 1-0 Zane Brown lead. Little went for a desperation shot later and the rest was history. You think with two refs on the mat, one of the two would’ve ruled that a takedown. 

1 hour ago, plantmanky1 said:

A coaches scratch list wont work in KY currently, there are not enough officials to start with.  You allow coaches to scratch, you want have any for the state tournament. 

 

Having asst refs at Quarterfinals is a good start but why start there, halfway through the tournament, if you going to do that, do it from match 1 of the state tournament.  However I guess the downside of that is if coaches are not happy with the refs at the tournament now, adding more that they wont be happy with doesnt do much. 

 

Video replay is never a good idea at the High School or below level.  

 

 

You get one scratch. If a ref has multiple scratches. Then you don’t want him anyway. 

I think we see too much ncaa wrestling these days where that is definitely 2. But in HS with reaction time I think it was a good no call. 

11 hours ago, ukpridewrestler11 said:

160 Finals match. Zane Brown vs Stephen Little

Thats not 2, not a controlled takedown.  

11 hours ago, take em to the mat said:

You get one scratch. If a ref has multiple scratches. Then you don’t want him anyway. 

my point is still valid though, there are more teams wrestling than officials at current.  Or its very close. 

Two Things:

1. Maybe it is time for the KHSAA to consider an evaluation system for officials. In WV we used to fill out an evaluation for on officials after each tournament. The forms were anonymous so coaches could be honest. Officials got a chance to review those forms as a self evaluation after each tournament. Officials were then selected for the post season based on how they were evaluated instead of the buddy system we have going on now. We had very young and inexperienced officials on the mat during very important matches this last weekend. 

2. I think one possible option would be to bring in a crew from out of state for the state tournament. I see a lot of elbow rubbing and cutting up between certain officials and players/coaches from certain teams. I think that if you are an official that spends most of your season working in a particular region or for your alma mater then you might be subconsciously biased towards those teams during the post season when competing against teams and coaches that you haven't seen all season. Bringing in an out of state crew with no biased would eliminate that issue. Just an opinion. 

Everyone comes from somewhere so I don't believe that bias occurs all that to often.  In some cases I believe just the opposite happens. 

My one question is why is Tom Hardy blackballed?  The man has been doing it for 40 years and still moves better than most. Compared to some of the officiating I saw this weekend, he would have been an improvement. 

6 hours ago, plantmanky1 said:

my point is still valid though, there are more teams wrestling than officials at current.  Or its very close. 

Yes. If there are that few I agree.  Maybe we need to increase pay. Educate all coaches and refs reguarding the rules. 

With the increase in teams on all levels High/Middle/Youth, we have diluted the referee pool.  Those graduates that would have become refs are now becoming middle and youth coaches.  In the not so distant past (20 years ago) we had a shortage of coaches.  There were head coaches that had never wrestled before.  

Coaches need to encourage their soon to be Youth and Middle school coaches to officiate for a few years.  This will help in two ways.

1.  Some may actually continue to officiate for several years

2.  If they become coaches they will have a better understanding of the rules and what officials experience on the mat. 

Sorry but the reffing was horrible all weekend. Refs still cant seem to understand the out of bounds rules, two refs didnt help when they were there. I think it was the very first finals match, went into the ultimate ride out. Kid that scored first chose down as he should have. Top guy dropped to an ankle and never climbed up for the whole 30 seconds!! No restart, no stalling. I'm pretty sure that ref didnt think he could call stalling in the ultimate ride out because all day they called bad stalling calls but there... nothing. I felt bad for that kid. Had he known all he had to do was drop to an ankle and hang on for the ride for 30 seconds he probably would have taken top. I would. Another instance I saw a tech like it was freestyle. Kid kept doing the same tilt, never let go of the wrist, just waves at the ref with the other hand and ref throws 3 over and over and over. Gotta make that kid break the hold. Had another kid get called for stalling while locked up in a cradle! What would you like the kid to do? Just get pinned if he cant get out? Sorry, and in the finals too bad refs dont make 1 good one. 

So my only question is, do the refs have weekly meetings and discuss the rules and interpretations throughout the season so they can learn? In Pennsylvania ( I was a ref) we had 9 meetings, one every other week and you were "required" to make at least 6 of them or you lost your certification. We had top notch interpreters and officials at every meeting. Other refs were appointed to watch newer refs to evaluate them, you couldn't even do varsity matches until someone said "hes good". You started out doing youth and jr high tournaments.  

I dont want to bash refs either but I'd like them to get better and more consistent and the second ref needs to know his job. Should always be apposite the other ref to watch locking hands  and things during scrambles and out of bounds while the other ref is down watching for backs and pins and watch the clock on starts and stops and just be the second pair of eyes. 

The state tournament should be about the great wrestling, not worrying about wether a ref is going to call it right. 

Just my two cents for what it's worth. Probably not much.

I saw a number of struggling officials this post season. But that said, We definitely don’t do enough to help these guys develop. It seems the theory is that they will get enough time in and just become great officials. 

I will also say we have a core group of really good officials. Unfortunately 8 mats at state requires us to use more than that core. 

This came from KHSAA website. 

ULTIMATE TIE-BREAKER • Should the score be tied at the end of the two 30 second tie-breaker periods, one ultimate 30 second tie-breaker period will be wrestled.

• Choice for position in the 30 second ultimate tie-breaker period will be given to the wrestler that scored first point(s) in the 6 minute regulation match. Double stalling points or simultaneous penalties shall be considered as no points for the purpose of choice in the ultimate tie-breaker.

• If no points were scored, choice will be determined by a flip of the disk. They must choose top, bottom or defer.

• The wrestler who scores the first point(s) during the ultimate tie-breaker will be declared the winner.

• If no points are scored in the ultimate tie-breaker period, the offensive wrestler will be declared the winner and one match point shall be added to the offensive wrestler’s score.

• Remember a fall or disqualification terminates any of the overtime periods.

• Remember that the Ultimate tie-breaker period is different than the rest of the match.

• The goal of the top wrestler is to control the bottom wrestler and the goal of the bottom wrestler is to get away or score.

• Controlled wrestling should not be confused as stalling in this situation only.

• There would be times when the top wrestler could be considered stalling, like grabbing a leg and hanging on.

• Ultimate Tiebreaker Period stalling will be called differently as the objective is for the top wrestler to control the bottom wrestler and the bottom wrestler to score.

• Controlled wrestling by the top wrestler will not be considered stalling during the ultimate tiebreaker period. Examples of what would not be control wrestling:

o Repeatedly grasping leg

o Stalemate first, then o Stall warning (or penalty)

o Rear standing position without attempting to return opponent to mat

o Stalemate first, then

o Warning (or penalty) for stalling

o Lifting opponent into air

o Stalemate first, then

o Warning (or penalty) for stalling

46 minutes ago, PABacon said:

Sorry but the reffing was horrible all weekend. Refs still cant seem to understand the out of bounds rules, two refs didnt help when they were there. I think it was the very first finals match, went into the ultimate ride out.

Second finals match Johnson Central Matt Horn v Saint X Ben Deprest. Matt was on the mat being dragged around by Ben for a long time. The first finals ended with both wrestlers on their feet.

    The only negative comment I will make about the officiating is that i saw one official specifically "over officiating".  I noticed him giving cautions way to fast.  I understand the rule but the idea is to allow the wrestlers to decide the match and not the official.  

4 hours ago, PABacon said:

Sorry but the reffing was horrible all weekend. Refs still cant seem to understand the out of bounds rules, two refs didnt help when they were there. I think it was the very first finals match, went into the ultimate ride out. Kid that scored first chose down as he should have. Top guy dropped to an ankle and never climbed up for the whole 30 seconds!! No restart, no stalling. I'm pretty sure that ref didnt think he could call stalling in the ultimate ride out because all day they called bad stalling calls but there... nothing. I felt bad for that kid. Had he known all he had to do was drop to an ankle and hang on for the ride for 30 seconds he probably would have taken top. I would. Another instance I saw a tech like it was freestyle. Kid kept doing the same tilt, never let go of the wrist, just waves at the ref with the other hand and ref throws 3 over and over and over. Gotta make that kid break the hold. Had another kid get called for stalling while locked up in a cradle! What would you like the kid to do? Just get pinned if he cant get out? Sorry, and in the finals too bad refs dont make 1 good one. 

 

So my only question is, do the refs have weekly meetings and discuss the rules and interpretations throughout the season so they can learn? In Pennsylvania ( I was a ref) we had 9 meetings, one every other week and you were "required" to make at least 6 of them or you lost your certification. We had top notch interpreters and officials at every meeting. Other refs were appointed to watch newer refs to evaluate them, you couldn't even do varsity matches until someone said "hes good". You started out doing youth and jr high tournaments.  

I dont want to bash refs either but I'd like them to get better and more consistent and the second ref needs to know his job. Should always be apposite the other ref to watch locking hands  and things during scrambles and out of bounds while the other ref is down watching for backs and pins and watch the clock on starts and stops and just be the second pair of eyes. 

The state tournament should be about the great wrestling, not worrying about wether a ref is going to call it right. 

Just my two cents for what it's worth. Probably not much.

When I started this thread it was not to bash and complain. Everyone here that has wrestled or coached has felt wrong more than once. This thread is to maybe start a conversation that will lead to better understanding of the rules. Coaches and referees alike. I won’t pretend to know all. But, i’m Willing to learn everyday. I’ve been at this for 35 years. I learn every chance I get.  What’s the solutions out there?

stalling on bottom should be called as it is in the rule book - not because the top man is “bigger” and/or “over powering” when the score is 3-3. That’s the unacceptable reasoning we received last weekend. Instead of calling stalling, the ref decided to call a stalemate when the top man was running a power half. I’m fine with human error, but there comes a point when it’s ridiculous.

if we aren’t going to do any of that, why don’t we join the rest of the world, wrestle Freestyle/Greco year round, and give folkstyle a Darwinian lesson.

2 hours ago, GentleBeard said:

stalling on bottom should be called as it is in the rule book - not because the top man is “bigger” and/or “over powering” when the score is 3-3. That’s the unacceptable reasoning we received last weekend. Instead of calling stalling, the ref decided to call a stalemate when the top man was running a power half. I’m fine with human error, but there comes a point when it’s ridiculous.

if we aren’t going to do any of that, why don’t we join the rest of the world, wrestle Freestyle/Greco year round, and give folkstyle a Darwinian lesson.

What's your solution? Keep in mind a large percentage of coaches don't understand the rules as well. Please read the begining of this thread. 

15 hours ago, take em to the mat said:

When I started this thread it was not to bash and complain. Everyone here that has wrestled or coached has felt wrong more than once. This thread is to maybe start a conversation that will lead to better understanding of the rules. Coaches and referees alike. I won’t pretend to know all. But, i’m Willing to learn everyday. I’ve been at this for 35 years. I learn every chance I get.  What’s the solutions out there?

 

And I said I dont want to bash them either. I told you what we did in Pa, I'm not 100% sure what we do here. Do they have training? Do they have weekly or bi weekly meetings with interpreters in their area? Do the join chapters and are they required to attend a certain amount of meetings during the season to discuss and learn the rules and what they're doing wrong? Do they get evaluated by their peers? We did all those things in Pennsylvania and I feel the quality of reffing as a whole was 10 times better. I guess the only way I'll know what we do here is to sign back up and get back out on the mat. I love reffing, I love wrestling and I like and respect referees and the thankless job they do but sometimes it pains me when the battle isn't between two good wrestlers but it's between two wrestlers and a ref that infuses himself into the match or just plain doesnt seem to know what the rules are or how to interpret them. 

And as far as the misinterpretations of "bashing refs", I would never. They are however paid for their services so...

I have a son who's failing two classes right now and I flat out told him it's horrible and unacceptable and he's lost any and all privileges until he gets them up and proves he can and will do better. I'm not bashing my son, I'm trying to make him better. If I let him continue to suck at school he wont bother trying. They need to know it's not good.

I spent the last three seasons before this year reffing in NE Ohio. We had to attend 6 of the 10 weekly meetings and the state mandatory rules meeting in October just to be able to ref post season. I went from reffing all levels in Kentucky for 7 seasons to mainly junior high in the Cleveland area with a few high school duals thrown in. The meetings were informative and brought up real match situations that happened locally the previous weekend (some of the refs there reffed Ironman and other big time tournaments). They chose a person each week to discuss a specific rule with a video presentation. They treated it like a second job, as you know they do get paid to ref. Kentucky should go back to implementing these mandatory meetings. With today's technology, even the rural areas can set up a video conference due to many refs in parts of the states living so far away and not so much centrally located like we were in NE Ohio where we were able to meet at a local high school every Monday night. 

22 hours ago, Eat at Joe's said:

Second finals match Johnson Central Matt Horn v Saint X Ben Deprest. Matt was on the mat being dragged around by Ben for a long time. The first finals ended with both wrestlers on their feet.

That's why I said "I think" it was the first match. I knewit was the first or second. It was just a bad no call. As someone has since posted the rules, should have been stopped and if he did it again, stalling. Bottom kid never had a chance.

1 hour ago, ukpridewrestler11 said:

I spent the last three seasons before this year reffing in NE Ohio. We had to attend 6 of the 10 weekly meetings and the state mandatory rules meeting in October just to be able to ref post season. I went from reffing all levels in Kentucky for 7 seasons to mainly junior high in the Cleveland area with a few high school duals thrown in. The meetings were informative and brought up real match situations that happened locally the previous weekend (some of the refs there reffed Ironman and other big time tournaments). They chose a person each week to discuss a specific rule with a video presentation. They treated it like a second job, as you know they do get paid to ref. Kentucky should go back to implementing these mandatory meetings. With today's technology, even the rural areas can set up a video conference due to many refs in parts of the states living so far away and not so much centrally located like we were in NE Ohio where we were able to meet at a local high school every Monday night. 

Ref any Cleveland Heights matches? I used to coach there

41 minutes ago, FalconWrestling said:

Ref any Cleveland Heights matches? I used to coach there

I reffed mainly Chardon, Eastlake, Willoughby, Beachwood, Perry, Mayfield, and Mentor matches. It seemed like at the middle school events it was the same exact teams every time. 

4 hours ago, PABacon said:

And I said I dont want to bash them either. I told you what we did in Pa, I'm not 100% sure what we do here. Do they have training? Do they have weekly or bi weekly meetings with interpreters in their area? Do the join chapters and are they required to attend a certain amount of meetings during the season to discuss and learn the rules and what they're doing wrong? Do they get evaluated by their peers? We did all those things in Pennsylvania and I feel the quality of reffing as a whole was 10 times better. I guess the only way I'll know what we do here is to sign back up and get back out on the mat. I love reffing, I love wrestling and I like and respect referees and the thankless job they do but sometimes it pains me when the battle isn't between two good wrestlers but it's between two wrestlers and a ref that infuses himself into the match or just plain doesnt seem to know what the rules are or how to interpret them. 

You are on the right track here. I like everything youve said here.

I think one point everyone is missing here is that Ky already has a critical problem with the number of officials they have. 

The 1st thing Ky needs to do is build up the pool of officials out there.  Then you can mandate meetings, tests, and observations or whatever you want to improve their level. 

If you require to much or make it to inconvenient then we will have even less officials.  

I look around and I see several teams that seem to have 7-9 coaches, most of them very young.  Coaches need to encourage their ex-wrestlers to try officiating.  Lets build up our pool 1st, I will guarantee this.  No one who is officiating wants to do a bad job, they all want to do the best they can.  Careful criticism by coaches to officials after an event when all has died down goes a long way.  

Coaches can take 3-5 minutes to talk to the official after a dual and discuss some calls with no judgment.  

4 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

I think one point everyone is missing here is that Ky already has a critical problem with the number of officials they have. 

The 1st thing Ky needs to do is build up the pool of officials out there.  Then you can mandate meetings, tests, and observations or whatever you want to improve their level. 

If you require to much or make it to inconvenient then we will have even less officials.  

I look around and I see several teams that seem to have 7-9 coaches, most of them very young.  Coaches need to encourage their ex-wrestlers to try officiating.  Lets build up our pool 1st, I will guarantee this.  No one who is officiating wants to do a bad job, they all want to do the best they can.  Careful criticism by coaches to officials after an event when all has died down goes a long way.  

Coaches can take 3-5 minutes to talk to the official after a dual and discuss some calls with no judgment.  

Great point(s). Yes these guys need a stint as a ref. It was great experience for me