Semi state will take top 2 to an 8 man state and place all 8. 

thanks for sharing. Shouldn't the regions be randomly drawn for semi-state? That is how they do baseball? and have random draws at wrestling state as well?

Question....will there still be a JV state tournament on 3/20?  If so, will it still be at Moore HS, since I believe Moore had a water issue in their main gym and construction on the new floor may not be done?

16 minutes ago, rdc517 said:

Question....will there still be a JV state tournament on 3/20?  If so, will it still be at Moore HS, since I believe Moore had a water issue in their main gym and construction on the new floor may not be done?

JV state has been cancelled per coach Thomas of Moore 

20 minutes ago, mama said:

thanks for sharing. Shouldn't the regions be randomly drawn for semi-state? That is how they do baseball? and have random draws at wrestling state as well?

Not for semi state because of travel. I believe state will be random drawn 

It was said that all post season will be seeded by track wrestling since it is what is used for regionals.

Regions- March 13

Semi state- March 20

State - March 27

Semi and state locations to be announced

I’m confused as to why we can have 16 man brackets for Regionals and Semi-State, but not for the State Championship.  

22 minutes ago, panthers said:

It was said that all post season will be seeded by track wrestling since it is what is used for regionals.

They want to prevent last meetings for regional seeding, but we can still have them. We can do over zoom if needed. With records this year, its impossible to let track seed

1 minute ago, JStrayRN said:

I’m confused as to why we can have 16 man brackets for Regionals and Semi-State, but not for the State Championship.  

They want spectators for the state level. Many regionals will likely be no spectators 

I went with top 10 to keep it simple. Also went with top 10 teams. Used Rangers latest rankings. "Miss State" is top 10 kids who will not make it to state. There is a big discrepancy between the "semi states". In the team breakdown, "make state" is top 10 kids on given team that are top two in the semi state. Outside qualifiers are kids who are ranked outside of the top ten but top 2 in their given semi state. St. X and Trinity lead the way with 3 kids each ranked outside of the top ten but qualifying for an 8 man state. Eli Mattingly-Neal (#18 @ 126) and Ayden Lehman (#24 @ 132) are some of the big ones that pop out. Lehman did wrestle 126 recently.

Kid that potentially won't qualify:
106: Hardin, Campbell, Raney, Matt
113: Teutsch, McKee, Griffith
120: Lattin, Benner, Stanley
126: Quintana, Tucker, Stull, Isaacs
132: Herron, Ross, Lewis, Nardelli
138: Stull, James, Andreoni, Johnson, Sproles
145: Bowers, Chapman
152: Phan, Grandstaff
160: Ketchen-Carter, Conrad, Hyden
170: Slayton, Baker
182: Riggins, Walls, McWilliams, Haggan
195: Adams, Whitehead, Hatchett
220: Boone, Elliston, Brooksbank, Leicht
285: Mooney, Arthur, Smith

Some state champs, runner ups, multi time placers that are getting screwed. Some, it is their senior year. Way to go KHSAA

16 minutes ago, coachteater said:

They want spectators for the state level. Many regionals will likely be no spectators 

Spectators at state level with an 8 man bracket.  Not many will be there if little Johnny is not there. 

I am old enough to remember the 8 man bracket in 86,87. It was horrible.  Attendance was miniscule. 

This could be the 1st state tourney I miss since 1982. 

9 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

Spectators at state level with an 8 man bracket.  Not many will be there if little Johnny is not there. 

I am old enough to remember the 8 man bracket in 86,87. It was horrible.  Attendance was miniscule. 

This could be the 1st state tourney I miss since 1982. 

It will likely be around 4 per wrestler.  If kids family doesnt go, thry will go into general pot and sold. It will "sell out"

22 minutes ago, ukpridewrestler11 said:

I went with top 10 to keep it simple. Also went with top 10 teams. Used Rangers latest rankings. "Miss State" is top 10 kids who will not make it to state. There is a big discrepancy between the "semi states". In the team breakdown, "make state" is top 10 kids on given team that are top two in the semi state. Outside qualifiers are kids who are ranked outside of the top ten but top 2 in their given semi state. St. X and Trinity lead the way with 3 kids each ranked outside of the top ten but qualifying for an 8 man state. Eli Mattingly-Neal (#18 @ 126) and Ayden Lehman (#24 @ 132) are some of the big ones that pop out. Lehman did wrestle 126 recently.

Kid that potentially won't qualify:
106: Hardin, Campbell, Raney, Matt
113: Teutsch, McKee, Griffith
120: Lattin, Benner, Stanley
126: Quintana, Tucker, Stull, Isaacs
132: Herron, Ross, Lewis, Nardelli
138: Stull, James, Andreoni, Johnson, Sproles
145: Bowers, Chapman
152: Phan, Grandstaff
160: Ketchen-Carter, Conrad, Hyden
170: Slayton, Baker
182: Riggins, Walls, McWilliams, Haggan
195: Adams, Whitehead, Hatchett
220: Boone, Elliston, Brooksbank, Leicht
285: Mooney, Arthur, Smith

Some state champs, runner ups, multi time placers that are getting screwed. Some, it is their senior year. Way to go KHSAA

Khsaa does not care about competition level. Their argument is teams in other sports that could win are home every year because they are in loaded regions

Gonna be hard to beat Johnson Central when they place 12. 
 

It's not impossible for track to seed these tournaments. The lack of coaches uploading info and results is what leads you to believe it is impossible. But the fact is, they could easily be seeded by track.

According to rankings right now: 

Johnson Central- 11 placers

Trinity- 10

St X- 8 

Union- 8

Ryle- 8

Tilghman-5 

Walton Verona- 4

This is awful 

1 hour ago, ukpridewrestler11 said:

I went with top 10 to keep it simple. Also went with top 10 teams. Used Rangers latest rankings. "Miss State" is top 10 kids who will not make it to state. There is a big discrepancy between the "semi states". In the team breakdown, "make state" is top 10 kids on given team that are top two in the semi state. Outside qualifiers are kids who are ranked outside of the top ten but top 2 in their given semi state. St. X and Trinity lead the way with 3 kids each ranked outside of the top ten but qualifying for an 8 man state. Eli Mattingly-Neal (#18 @ 126) and Ayden Lehman (#24 @ 132) are some of the big ones that pop out. Lehman did wrestle 126 recently.

Kid that potentially won't qualify:
106: Hardin, Campbell, Raney, Matt
113: Teutsch, McKee, Griffith
120: Lattin, Benner, Stanley
126: Quintana, Tucker, Stull, Isaacs
132: Herron, Ross, Lewis, Nardelli
138: Stull, James, Andreoni, Johnson, Sproles
145: Bowers, Chapman
152: Phan, Grandstaff
160: Ketchen-Carter, Conrad, Hyden
170: Slayton, Baker
182: Riggins, Walls, McWilliams, Haggan
195: Adams, Whitehead, Hatchett
220: Boone, Elliston, Brooksbank, Leicht
285: Mooney, Arthur, Smith

Some state champs, runner ups, multi time placers that are getting screwed. Some, it is their senior year. Way to go KHSAA

Precisely. If mitigating risk and getting the best kids to the state tournament was the goal, they failed pretty remarkably. Almost as if they were trying.

1 hour ago, coachteater said:

It will likely be around 4 per wrestler.  If kids family doesnt go, thry will go into general pot and sold. It will "sell out"

Based on this, it’s safe to assume it’ll be held at a high school?

12 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

Precisely. If mitigating risk and getting the best kids to the state tournament was the goal, they failed pretty remarkably. Almost as if they were trying.

That wasnt the khsaa goal, they laid out what they wanted and got it. 32 kids to qualify for state(semi state is state) , same amount of placers(8), spectators for state (8 man brackets at semi and state allow this), and have at a school located close to Lexington (to be announced,  but im sure they have one lined out)

I dont necessary like it, but better than some other states and other options. 

My biggest complaint is from the government that's putting ridiculous restrictions on us all. They cause this whole problem.  Thats my 2 cents for what its worth

34 minutes ago, CoachC said:

It's not impossible for track to seed these tournaments. The lack of coaches uploading info and results is what leads you to believe it is impossible. But the fact is, they could easily be seeded by track.

Of course it can seed a tourney but can it correctly. 

Not sure of its capabilities, but most seeds are determined by mostly head to head and common opponent.

1 hour ago, ukpridewrestler11 said:

I went with top 10 to keep it simple. Also went with top 10 teams. Used Rangers latest rankings. "Miss State" is top 10 kids who will not make it to state. There is a big discrepancy between the "semi states". In the team breakdown, "make state" is top 10 kids on given team that are top two in the semi state. Outside qualifiers are kids who are ranked outside of the top ten but top 2 in their given semi state. St. X and Trinity lead the way with 3 kids each ranked outside of the top ten but qualifying for an 8 man state. Eli Mattingly-Neal (#18 @ 126) and Ayden Lehman (#24 @ 132) are some of the big ones that pop out. Lehman did wrestle 126 recently.

Kid that potentially won't qualify:
106: Hardin, Campbell, Raney, Matt
113: Teutsch, McKee, Griffith
120: Lattin, Benner, Stanley
126: Quintana, Tucker, Stull, Isaacs
132: Herron, Ross, Lewis, Nardelli
138: Stull, James, Andreoni, Johnson, Sproles
145: Bowers, Chapman
152: Phan, Grandstaff
160: Ketchen-Carter, Conrad, Hyden
170: Slayton, Baker
182: Riggins, Walls, McWilliams, Haggan
195: Adams, Whitehead, Hatchett
220: Boone, Elliston, Brooksbank, Leicht
285: Mooney, Arthur, Smith

Some state champs, runner ups, multi time placers that are getting screwed. Some, it is their senior year. Way to go KHSAA

I see 2 state champs on the list of kids that would be sitting home if we went off the rankings.  I can see Raney  and Tom KC winning this year.  

To look at this as a half full person.

We (as a community) got most of what we wanted.

1. A season

2. A post season

3. Same amount of state qualifiers.

What we didn't get.

1. Full 32 man state tourney

2. A 16 man state tourney with 4 advancing from Semi State. 

Not a horrible thing.  I just feel sorry for those that are going to be sitting at home when they could have possibly placed. (Especially those that are seniors)

15 minutes ago, coachteater said:

That wasnt the khsaa goal, they laid out what they wanted and got it. 32 kids to qualify for state(semi state is state) , same amount of placers(8), spectators for state (8 man brackets at semi and state allow this), and have at a school located close to Lexington (to be announced,  but im sure they have one lined out)

I dont necessary like it, but better than some other states and other options. 

My biggest complaint is from the government that's putting ridiculous restrictions on us all. They cause this whole problem.  Thats my 2 cents for what its worth

The fact so many are confused/upset with this decision suggests there were plenty of other options that were not listened to. 
 

Semi-state is not state, IMO. It’s a qualifier just like regionals. Ask a kid from Indiana how he did at state, and he won’t tell you how he did at semi-state. Just my 2 cents.

It’s abundantly clear, now, the khsaa is self serving. They don’t want to stay overnight, but teams will have to (multiple weeks). They don’t want to spend money, but teams will have to spend in a significant way. 
 

Kids get bad draws every year. It happens. It’s just a different setup. The cream will rise to the top. 

4 minutes ago, Chris Duke said:

I see 2 state champs on the list of kids that would be sitting home if we went off the rankings.  I can see Raney  and Tom KC winning this year.  

Agreed. Good news is that they will have their shot. 

Listed concerns from the BOC meeting were(in no particular order)

• 1)Money, teams having expenses
• 2)Travel concerns.
• 3)Overnight stays.

So adding another "round to the state tournament called semi state" lessens which of these concerns? Teams from either regions 1 or 2, 5 or 6 and 7 or 8 are going to have to come up with all 3(Money, Travel and overnight stays), 3 times depending on where regions are held. So that theory is horse manure. Guess who is making the money, not having to travel or have overnight stays?

Maybe wrestling can use Rupp Arena late at night after basketball is done. Coaches, parents, wrestlers and refs are used to that.

2 minutes ago, DrBaker said:

Kids get bad draws every year. It happens. It’s just a different setup. The cream will rise to the top. 

This is true. The cream will always rise, but that is the difference between wrestling and other sports. In our sport we don't just congratulate the top one or two.  We congratulate 8 and for many of those kids and programs the 3-8 is just as satisfying as getting 1st. 

For that matter even qualifying is regarded as a huge accomplishment by some.  This is what makes our sport so great. There are several opportunities to be succeed, and be recognized. 

Hey as usual these are just the opinions of GOO you can take them or leave them. 

9 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

The fact so many are confused/upset with this decision suggests there were plenty of other options that were not listened to. Us involved in the sport care more about getting the right kids in the tournament (even if it’s an 8 man bracket) than how many fans get to attend. They messed up pretty bad and it’s going to show in the postseason. Also, no contingency plan in case covid comes during semi state. State will be more watered down than some semi states.

Agreed.   Other than not having a post season, which option is this better than? Of the 20 or so options that were brought up just on here this seems like the worst.   I’m curious what other options they (KHSAA) were considering.  

3 minutes ago, coachteater said:

That wasnt the khsaa goal, they laid out what they wanted and got it. 32 kids to qualify for state(semi state is state) , same amount of placers(8), spectators for state (8 man brackets at semi and state allow this), and have at a school located close to Lexington (to be announced,  but im sure they have one lined out)

I dont necessary like it, but better than some other states and other options. 

My biggest complaint is from the government that's putting ridiculous restrictions on us all. They cause this whole problem.  Thats my 2 cents for what its worth

It truly baffles me that it can be repeated over and over and not cause huge concern that our Association is Ok with just getting this ran and over with and not put the best product out their for our sport and these kids. This attitude of “ we should just be thankful” is getting old, while so many states have and are showing that it can be done in the normal format. How can it not be a goal to create the most competitive State as possible. Also “semi-state” is not like an extension of the 1st day of state. You don’t have the ability to wrestle back to a third place at state. Using the same information others are using on this thread as where kids are at (Kentucky Wrestling Forum’s Rankings by Ranger, which always seem pretty accurate). Regions that have 5-6 of the top ten leave home 4 of those wrestlers while other regions that have wrestlers down the list get an automatic trip to state. Also the state race now becomes about the higher ranked teams in same regions eliminating each other while other regions advance wrestlers based on lack of competition. It’s crazy that this whole foundation is built on a governor and his medical sidekick to establish how many people can be together with no ability to make a concession to all post season events to be normal and use a venue that can accommodate this sport. 

3 minutes ago, gameface said:

It truly baffles me that it can be repeated over and over and not cause huge concern that our Association is Ok with just getting this ran and over with and not put the best product out their for our sport and these kids. This attitude of “ we should just be thankful” is getting old.

Agreed! If you take a baseball bat to my kneecaps, I’m not going to “just be thankful” you handed me a pair of crutches.

8 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

To look at this as a half full person.

We (as a community) got most of what we wanted.

1. A season

2. A post season

3. Same amount of state qualifiers.

What we didn't get.

1. Full 32 man state tourney

2. A 16 man state tourney with 4 advancing from Semi State. 

Not a horrible thing.  I just feel sorry for those that are going to be sitting at home when they could have possibly placed. (Especially those that are seniors)

GOO

I am glad you are a half full person, I try to be as well. In no said form or fashion has there been any talks of cancelling state tournament. In fact, the lack of preparation has been exposed. The lack of options regarding venues and formats has left us, the wrestling community, in the current situation. I'm not the smartest person and try to be around persons whose interests match mine. When we have a common problem we work together to come up with a solution that may not benefit an individual, but the greatest portion of the group.

The current BOC proposal only benefits one group in the wrestling world and that's the KHSAA.

In one of the earlier BOC work sessions, concerning boys basketball state tournament, the only discussion was involving the use and dates available at Rupp Arena. The amount of fans allowed was a concern and was mentioned, but Rupp Arena was going to be the venue. Wrestling still does not have a venue, instead 4 semi-state venues have to be secured and a state-finals venue as well.

1 hour ago, CoachC said:

It's not impossible for track to seed these tournaments. The lack of coaches uploading info and results is what leads you to believe it is impossible. But the fact is, they could easily be seeded by track.

Yep. And the criteria isn't really that complicated. I've seen track used to seed tourney's with basic criteria, and it does a really good job. It may get a little dicey if you have two returning state champs without a head to head matchup. At the regional level, most seeding will go off of head to head then state placement from last year. Semi-State could get a little dicey because of unbalance in regions and the fact that there might not be as much head to head. By the time you are at State, seeding really won't be as much of an issue, as in theory, everyone there will be really good.

Yes it's unfortunate that some good wrestlers won't get to go to State. But good kids every year get bad draws. There are always a handful of quarterfinal matches at state that should be semi final, or even finals matches because of the random draw. That same thing will happen this year, it's just going to happen at semi-state.

Freedom hall was a viable option.  They were approached and excited for the opportunity to discuss hosting state.   This would have allowed for a normal size bracket with fan attendance at a reasonable price.   It likely would have included a small entry fee per team or wrestler or coach to make this happen.  Barren was presented with this option and showed no interest or willingness to look further into it.   
 

i don’t know why.  My only guess would be 1) it wasn’t as easy.  2) KHSAA wouldn’t make profit off of it.  Or 3) it’s not located in lexington.  
 

national duals a couple years ago was held at freedom hall with great success.  It would make a great venue for state tourney.  And the venue (at least at the time) was available the weekend we needed it.  Why was this not considered?  Louisville is still centrally located.  It would cut down tremendously on travel by eliminating an additional weekend.  And most importantly it’s fair to the kids.   

10 minutes ago, LCalum said:

Agreed.   Other than not having a post season, which option is this better than? Of the 20 or so options that were brought up just on here this seems like the worst.   I’m curious what other options they (KHSAA) were considering.  

I did some leg work. Found a venue that was open the weekend of March 27th. Attendance wouldn’t have been an issue as they’ve been hosting events already. Wrestle regionals on 3/13 and state on 3/27. Mitigate risk of covid putting qualifiers out of the state tournament, and then wrestling state as normal. But, KHSAA wants to “save money” and had “travel concerns”. Yet, those that will be traveling and spending the most money are the competitors and families - none of which I heard were concerns until today. Instead of 2 weeks of travel, it’s now going to be 3 weeks. I feel bad for the seniors - especially region 5/6 at 160. If the “cream rises to the top”, then the “cream” should be at state, not on the sidelines. Just my 2 cents

3 minutes ago, LCalum said:

Freedom hall was a viable option.  They were approached and excited for the opportunity to discuss hosting state.   This would have allowed for a normal size bracket with fan attendance at a reasonable price.   It likely would have included a small entry fee per team or wrestler or coach to make this happen.  Barren was presented with this option and showed no interest or willingness to look further into it.   
 

i don’t know why.  My only guess would be 1) it wasn’t as easy.  2) KHSAA wouldn’t make profit off of it.  Or 3) it’s not located in lexington.  
 

national duals a couple years ago was held at freedom hall with great success.  It would make a great venue for state tourney.  And the venue (at least at the time) was available the weekend we needed it.  Why was this not considered?  Louisville is still centrally located.  It would cut down tremendously on travel by eliminating an additional weekend.  And most importantly it’s fair to the kids.   

That makes too much sense...that’s why.

5 minutes ago, LCalum said:

Freedom hall was a viable option.  They were approached and excited for the opportunity to discuss hosting state.   This would have allowed for a normal size bracket with fan attendance at a reasonable price.   It likely would have included a small entry fee per team or wrestler or coach to make this happen.  Barren was presented with this option and showed no interest or willingness to look further into it.   
 

i don’t know why.  My only guess would be 1) it wasn’t as easy.  2) KHSAA wouldn’t make profit off of it.  Or 3) it’s not located in lexington.  
 

national duals a couple years ago was held at freedom hall with great success.  It would make a great venue for state tourney.  And the venue (at least at the time) was available the weekend we needed it.  Why was this not considered?  Louisville is still centrally located.  It would cut down tremendously on travel by eliminating an additional weekend.  And most importantly it’s fair to the kids.   

I'd guess that cost and lack of allowed attendance is almost certainly a factor. When you think about the fact that the KHSAA both Sweet Sixteen's, all the revenue from the 2020 spring sports State tourney's, and almost certainly did no better than break even in the 2020 football finals, the KHSAA budget has to be really thin, and maybe running on fumes. No sport has gotten what they've wanted for the last 11 months. 

5 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

Yes it's unfortunate that some good wrestlers won't get to go to State. But good kids every year get bad draws. There are always a handful of quarterfinal matches at state that should be semi final, or even finals matches because of the random draw. That same thing will happen this year, it's just going to happen at semi-state.

You’re talking about state - where you can wrestle back to still place 3rd if you get beat early. Semi-state is finals or bust. State now has participation medals. If only 8 make it, only 4 should place.

Just now, rjs4470 said:

I'd guess that cost and lack of allowed attendance is almost certainly a factor. When you think about the fact that the KHSAA both Sweet Sixteen's, all the revenue from the 2020 spring sports State tourney's, and almost certainly did no better than break even in the 2020 football finals, the budget has to be really thin.

Freedom Hall under current restrictions can hold 1000+ spectators in addition to wrestlers, coaches, refs and personnel. That's not even counting using the north wing like they did during national duals.

9 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

You’re talking about state - where you can wrestle back to still place 3rd if you get beat early. Semi-state is finals or bust. State now has participation medals. If only 8 make it, only 4 should place.

Ok, I can't completely argue with that. But arguing that part of it is really just semantics. In theory, you're still looking at the "top 8" wrestlers in the state, that have won their way to that position, which is no different than the regular 32 man bracket with 8 placers, who also had to win their way into those positions. And even under normal conditions, there were always top kids that didn't make the podium, whether it was due to a bad draw, dumb luck, an injury or a bad day. People have complained for years about how watered down the 32 man bracket is. Now suddenly, it seems everyone loves the 32 man bracket. 

34 minutes ago, DrBaker said:

Kids get bad draws every year. It happens. It’s just a different setup. The cream will rise to the top. 

Kids do get bad draws at state. The worst one being the quarterfinal match between Sheffer and Johnson a few years ago. But, that was at state and Trent dominated his way to 3rd and Bryce dominated his way to another title. No doubt, some semifinal matchups at semi state mimic this. Problem is, the kid who would dominate to get 3rd will be staying home with the inability to do so. If the “cream rises to the top”, I think it’s important that only “the cream” is competing at state.

Region 1&2 have 6 of the top 10 at 106 (just the first example of many).   So 4 of them will not qualify.  While region 3&4 only have one kid in the rankings at all and is outside the top 15.  Not sure I’d call that semantics.   The best kid should no doubt qualify for state.  But the best kids will not be represented as they should.   And it has nothing to do with bad draws or losing a match they shouldn’t.   

13 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

Kids do get bad draws at state. The worst one being the quarterfinal match between Sheffer and Johnson a few years ago. But, that was at state and Trent dominated his way to 3rd and Bryce dominated his way to another title. No doubt, some semifinal matchups at semi state mimic this. Problem is, the kid who would dominate to get 3rd will be staying home with the inability to do so. If the “cream rises to the top”, I think it’s important that only “the cream” is competing at state.

The ability to wrestle back to 3rd is certainly a drawback. And certainly some kids who would likely have placed, won't get a chance. But this has been an unprecedented season and year for all sports. There are baseball, softball, track and tennis athletes that didn't even get to compete last year. 16 boys, and 16 girls basketball teams didn't get a once in lifetime opportunity to play at Rupp arena for a state title last year. Some football teams were forced out of their last games due to Covid cancellations in the playoffs. While this format for wrestling may not be ideal, wrestling has gotten a much better deal than almost every other sport in the last 12 months. It's by no means perfect. But lets see how it plays out before completely condemming it. My guess is that it will be better than we think, even if it isn't perfect.

I had to live through watching a bunch of seniors I've coached for several years miss out on their senior year of baseball, most of which, weren't getting the opportunity to play in college. Careers ended, without even a chance to swing a bat, or make a pitch. I would have killed for them to get the chance that wrestlers are getting, which is to have somewhat of a season (albeit a very different one) and a chance to compete for a state title. Coming from that perspective, I'm looking at this as a glass half full moment, rather than something terrible.

1 minute ago, rjs4470 said:

The ability to wrestle back to 3rd is certainly a drawback. And certainly some kids who would likely have placed, won't get a chance. But this has been an unprecedented season and year for all sports. There are baseball, softball, track and tennis athletes that didn't even get to compete last year. 16 boys, and 16 girls basketball teams didn't get a once in lifetime opportunity to play at Rupp arena for a state title last year. Some football teams were forced out of their last games due to Covid cancellations in the playoffs. While this format for wrestling may not be ideal, wrestling has gotten a much better deal than almost every other sport in the last 12 months.

Sure, we are fortunate with when our season starts and ends. We ended less than a month before lockdowns, and our season started after we had 10 months to address covid and formulate a strategy to mitigate risk. That’s about where it ends, though. Surrounding states found a way to keep their state tournaments intact and on time. We couldn’t ask them? We couldn’t see why and how they did it? We couldn’t take what works from other states and implement them here? Is that too much work? We couldn’t have multiple team individual tournaments with more than 12 teams during the season because COVID, but they’re willing to make an exception 3 weekends in a row with no contingency plan if a qualifier gets sick? KHSAA has fumbled (and still fumbling) their way through the season. Exhibit A: we are going to have a semi state, but no idea where. Exhibit B: we are going to have a state tournament, but no idea where.  Semi state is 4 weeks away.

I’m not in the camp of “we should just be grateful to have a season” when the season looks the way it does for no good reason.

12 minutes ago, LCalum said:

Region 1&2 have 6 of the top 10 at 106 (just the first example of many).   So 4 of them will not qualify.  While region 3&4 only have one kid in the rankings at all and is outside the top 15.  Not sure I’d call that semantics.   The best kid should no doubt qualify for state.  But the best kids will not be represented as they should.   And it has nothing to do with bad draws or losing a match they shouldn’t.   

Check out 160 from 5/6. Total bummer.

Should let 12 kids into state. The 4 semistate winners get first round bye, and that gives 3rd place kids at semi state the chance to wrestle their way back into discussion. But, it won't happen. I know for a fact Mike "Baron" was proposed an option for state over the phone that allowed 32 man brackets, followed protocol by utilizing 4 different gyms (coaching may or may not have been an issue) and allowed spectators. Second day, the top 8 would have been brought back to finish all in the same gym. Coach Dennis Walls, formerly of Union County, was the one who proposed this idea to Julian Tackett and Mike Barren. They said it was a great idea that could definitely work and in Lexington. What they did was take those four sites and made it into a semi-state and brought on only the top 2 from semi-states. 

We have a BOC that only utilizes athletic directors and pushed out all of the acting wrestling coaches, making it easier for the KHSAA to say screw off, we don't care about wrestling and do it their own way. Have athletic directors that don't have a backbone to stick up for their regions wrestling teams. Every other state tournament has ran normally. Football used Kroger Field. We all know dang well that the Sweet Sixteen will use Rupp Arena, and not be forced to semi-states and only bring in  teams (same ratio they dropped wrestling by) to the actual state tournament. They should be ashamed of themselves.

7 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

Sure, we are fortunate with when our season starts and ends. We ended less than a month before lockdowns, and our season started after we had 10 months to address covid and formulate a strategy to mitigate risk. That’s about where it ends, though. Surrounding states found a way to keep their state tournaments intact and on time. We couldn’t ask them? We couldn’t see why and how they did it? We couldn’t take what works from other states and implement them here? Is that too much work? We couldn’t have multiple team individual tournaments with more than 12 teams during the season because COVID, but they’re willing to make an exception 3 weekends in a row with no contingency plan if a qualifier gets sick? KHSAA has fumbled (and still fumbling) their way through the season. Exhibit A: we are going to have a semi state, but no idea where. Exhibit B: we are going to have a state tournament, but no idea where.  Semi state is 4 weeks away.

I’m not in the camp of “we should just be grateful to have a season” when the season looks the way it does for no good reason.

What was the old contingency plan if a wrestler got sick before or couldn't compete at state for some reason?  And unless we have served on the KHSAA Board of Control, we have no idea what they have had to go through, and what limitations have been imposed on them from the BOE/State. The KHSAA gets their marching orders from the State/BOE...they are not an autonomous organization. It's really easy to armchair quarterback and be critical of this whole situation, but unless you know exactly what the cards were that they've been dealt by the folks that they work for, it's not fair to say they've completey whiffed.

2 minutes ago, ukpridewrestler11 said:

Should let 12 kids into state. The 4 semistate winners get first round bye, and that gives 3rd place kids at semi state the chance to wrestle their way back into discussion. But, it won't happen. I know for a fact Mike "Baron" was proposed an option for state over the phone that allowed 32 man brackets, followed protocol by utilizing 4 different gyms (coaching may or may not have been an issue) and allowed spectators. Second day, the top 8 would have been brought back to finish all in the same gym. Coach Dennis Walls, formerly of Union County, was the one who proposed this idea to Julian Tackett and Mike Barren. They said it was a great idea that could definitely work and in Lexington. What they did was take those four sites and made it into a semi-state and brought on only the top 2 from semi-states. 

That’s like getting a recipe to boil noodles, then forgetting to use water. Good idea, terrible execution.

11 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

The ability to wrestle back to 3rd is certainly a drawback. And certainly some kids who would likely have placed, won't get a chance. But this has been an unprecedented season and year for all sports. There are baseball, softball, track and tennis athletes that didn't even get to compete last year. 16 boys, and 16 girls basketball teams didn't get a once in lifetime opportunity to play at Rupp arena for a state title last year. Some football teams were forced out of their last games due to Covid cancellations in the playoffs. While this format for wrestling may not be ideal, wrestling has gotten a much better deal than almost every other sport in the last 12 months.

What does last season's spring sports being cancelled have to due with this season's wrestling format? We are in the here and now. You plan for the best and make adjustments. Not plan for the minimum(which is more harmful to most than helpful) and then throw your hands up like well at least we get to have one. 

Just now, BigBossMan said:

What does last season's spring sports being cancelled have to due with this season's wrestling format? We are in the here and now. You plan for the best and make adjustments. Not plan for the minimum(which is more harmful to most than helpful) and then throw your hands up like well at least we get to have one. 

You're right...perhaps it doesn't have any relationship. What's done is done. Just offering some perspective, and maybe the idea, that this could be much, much worse than it currently is.

2 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

What was the old contingency plan if a wrestler got sick before or couldn't compete at state for some reason?  And unless we have served on the KHSAA Board of Control, we have no idea what they have had to go through, and what limitations have been imposed on them from the BOE/State. It's really easy to armchair quarterback and be critical of this whole situation, but unless you know exactly what the cards were that they've been dealt by the folks that they work for, it's not fair to say they've completey whiffed.

If a wrestler got sick or couldn't compete for some reason he was replaced by the alternate in his region. If there are limitations than those should be explained in the meeting. And the KHSAA works for who? That is rhetorical.

Just now, rjs4470 said:

What was the old contingency plan if a wrestler got sick before or couldn't compete at state for some reason?  And unless we have served on the KHSAA Board of Control, we have no idea what they have had to go through, and what limitations have been imposed on them from the BOE/State. It's really easy to armchair quarterback and be critical of this whole situation, but unless you know exactly what the cards were that they've been dealt by the folks that they work for, it's not fair to say they've completey whiffed.

All I know is they’ve mentioned on multiple occasions that a significant number is not familiar with wrestling, not from a wrestling area, or that mike barren has talked to “coaches” only to qualify his statement by saying he’s talked to “3 coaches”. I’ve watched every BOC meeting since October. My biggest issue with everything is the close mindedness of the khsaa and the self service they provide themselves and seemingly no one else. I’m not on the BOC, but if I was, I think I’d have clear goals, clear communication, and a solutions based optimism that benefits the competitors and families more than myself. I wouldn’t sit back and do nothing.

At it's foundation, wrestling rewards effort. To deny a kid the ability to medal because of where they live surely isn't the message we want to send. Consoling seniors who put themselves in a position to be successful in this final year will be a challenge especially as they watch competitors they've beaten reach the podium because of the reduced competition in the regional match ups. It makes no sense. Can our coaches association lobby for 16 man brackets at state? We have a number of ways that can be done and done safely.

Not to mention this idea has 14 placers who will go 0-3 at state tourney to finish 8th place.   What was once a great accomplishment and a battle through the brackets now feels more like a kick in the nuts.  
 

this is still a proposal at this point right?   What can we do to change it? 

3 minutes ago, BigBossMan said:

If a wrestler got sick or couldn't compete for some reason he was replaced by the alternate in his region. If there are limitations than those should be explained in the meeting. And the KHSAA works for who? That is rhetorical.

If a kid caught the flu, then they’d be out and the next kid would step in. That’s obvious from years’ past. But, in 2021 with an 8 man bracket, and contact tracing and mandatory quarantines, I’m thinking everyone in that bracket would be flagged and disqualified. So, then what? A 6 man bracket for that weight? 

2 minutes ago, LCalum said:

Not to mention this idea has 14 placers who will go 0-3 at state tourney to finish 8th place.  

Welcome to 2021

3 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

You're right...perhaps it doesn't have any relationship. What's done is done. Just offering some perspective, and maybe the idea, that this could be much, much worse than it currently is.

You can see in my prior posts my position on the proposal being presented to the Board. I do not mean any disrespect to you or your opinion. I have been involved with wrestling in KY for over 30 years as a wrestler, coach and referee. I have hosted tournaments and travelled all over the state to great tournaments and now my children are beyond their wrestling years. The current athletes involved have a great stake and have worked their tales off to get on the podium and they deserve every available option. Not one that meets the minimum required amount. I try and leave things better than I found them. My hope is others feel the same.

8 minutes ago, BigBossMan said:

You can see in my prior posts my position on the proposal being presented to the Board. I do not mean any disrespect to you or your opinion. I have been involved with wrestling in KY for over 30 years as a wrestler, coach and referee. I have hosted tournaments and travelled all over the state to great tournaments and now my children are beyond their wrestling years. The current athletes involved have a great stake and have worked their tales off to get on the podium and they deserve every available option. Not one that meets the minimum required amount. I try and leave things better than I found them. My hope is others feel the same.

I get it. And I understand why so many are upset. What's been presented is certainly far from perfect, and yes there are likely better solutions that are available, maybe even beyond what's been presented here. It's just hard for me to be super critical when I don't know what directives the KHSAA are receiving from the State. None of us know unless we've been on that Board. Again, no sport has gotten what they've wanted or felt their athletes deserved for the last 12 months. Doesn't mean it's ok, but it just is what it is. I don't believe the KHSAA hates, or doesn't care about wrestling. This is an unprecedented time, with issues that we've never seen or had to deal with before. Sports has mirrored policy in general....things change quickly, sometimes overnight. Rules are made, changed, and then changed again. It makes planning very difficult. My company stages many events in several states, and I can tell you, event planning has been virtually impossible due to regulations set forth by the state and local governments as well as venues, which often play by different sets of rules. It's been so difficult, it's to the point where we just aren't doing events of any size. I can only imagine the same is true for something like the State Wrestling Tournament. We all knew this year was going to be different. Hopefully, things are better next year. I am trying to make the best lemonade possible with the lemons that we've been dealt.

It says semi state will have “full wrestlebacks”. Doesn’t that mean a true 2nd place? 

I do believe if it had been top 4 out of semi-state and a 16 man bracket we would be seeing a lot less outrage. The way this bracket is set up reminds me of similar issues Virginia had in I want to say 2015 when they split into 6 or so different divisions and had 8 man state brackets

31 minutes ago, FalconWrestling said:

I do believe if it had been top 4 out of semi-state and a 16 man bracket we would be seeing a lot less outrage. The way this bracket is set up reminds me of similar issues Virginia had in I want to say 2015 when they split into 6 or so different divisions and had 8 man state brackets

It would be a much better representation of the best in the state. 

Basically what we have is semi-state being the first three rounds or so of state but without the ability of a 3/4 from another region to beat the 1/2 of a different region because of no random draw which really further highlights the regional differences with how many Louisville area programs have dropped the past five or so years

3 hours ago, GentleBeard said:

Welcome to 2021

.....and still score team placement points. 

5 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

Of course it can seed a tourney but can it correctly. 

Not sure of its capabilities, but most seeds are determined by mostly head to head and common opponent.

Correctly is exactly what you would get. It cuts thru all of the arguing about records, who beat who with no head to head. All of that. How many times has a coach argued that a kids seed should be higher based on a something and 0 record, when in fact half of the kids wins were against the same 5 opponents. Track seeds kids based on all of their wins and losses. Fact.

Also, there is really no need to seed semi state. 1vs.4, 2vs.3, 3vs.2, 4vs.1. Bracket set up and ready to wrestle.

This whole seeding discussion really has me concerned. I’ve always been an advocate for seeding more than we do, but would be nice to know a little more detail how it will happen. 
The more I think about it the more I don’t know that there should be any seeding shenanigans going on at semi-state. I could see a situation where the top 2 kids in the state are in the same region and after meeting in the region finals the “seeding” puts them on the same side at semi state. I guess a true second match would help fix that, but hopefully we get it straight from the beginning. Keep it simple as CoachC put it above. 

I don't think it's clear, will semi-state team points carry over to the state tournament? I am assuming yes based off of context

16 minutes ago, FalconWrestling said:

I don't think it's clear, will semi-state team points carry over to the state tournament? I am assuming yes based off of context

Yes, points carry over. They said it in meeting.  Barren said its basically 1 tournament over two Saturdays 

51 minutes ago, coachteater said:

6 hours ago, rjs4470 said:

I get it. And I understand why so many are upset. What's been presented is certainly far from perfect, and yes there are likely better solutions that are available, maybe even beyond what's been presented here. It's just hard for me to be super critical when I don't know what directives the KHSAA are receiving from the State. None of us know unless we've been on that Board. Again, no sport has gotten what they've wanted or felt their athletes deserved for the last 12 months. Doesn't mean it's ok, but it just is what it is. I don't believe the KHSAA hates, or doesn't care about wrestling. This is an unprecedented time, with issues that we've never seen or had to deal with before. Sports has mirrored policy in general....things change quickly, sometimes overnight. Rules are made, changed, and then changed again. It makes planning very difficult. My company stages many events in several states, and I can tell you, event planning has been virtually impossible due to regulations set forth by the state and local governments as well as venues, which often play by different sets of rules. It's been so difficult, it's to the point where we just aren't doing events of any size. I can only imagine the same is true for something like the State Wrestling Tournament. We all knew this year was going to be different. Hopefully, things are better next year. I am trying to make the best lemonade possible with the lemons that we've been dealt.

Wrestling tournaments started back up in July, I believe (maybe sooner?). There’s a significant track record of successful tournaments in different states as well as 2 bordering states and the GHSAA who are nearly done with their season while keeping their post season nearly intact. There were 10 months of data across the country to help plan a safe, successful season/post season. Not to mention, the various suggestions that made sense on this forum that fell on deaf ears. The KHSAA stated their concerns were 1) cost, 2) overnight stays, and 3) travel. The competitors and families are the only ones that now get to bear that burden (including a new, unexpected week of expenses via semi state), yet don’t complain near as much as the powers that be. Nevertheless, in one month, we will be wrestling a state qualifier at venues yet to be determined. 

For what it’s worth, I do believe we need to make adjustments to our qualifying process. This just wasn’t the year, or time of the season, to try it out. 

Obviously a vast majority of us are not pleased with the currently proposed solution. It may be too late, but we can't let this go silently. I have attached an alternate proposal for this post season. The only chance we have to turn this thing around, if there is any at all, is to start asking for the same thing. I am urging all of you to read through this proposal and get behind it. 

The attached proposal outlines why the current solution is not acceptable. 46 of the top 10 ranked kids in the state are mathematically eliminated from contention already. That is 46 kids that have worked for years to get on the podium that the KHSAA is slamming the door on. Then it goes on to outline a new post season setup and its advantages. The new setup is as follows:

• Regional Tournament as usual
• 2 semi-states (Regions 1-4 and 5-8) with top 4 from each region. 16 man brackets. 
• 16 man state championship, top 8 from each semi state. 

Next it outlines how a "COVID Friendly" 16 man bracket tournament could be ran in a normal high school gym with 4 fans per wrestler. And lastly it shows how this setup will not only result in a better and more fair setup for the wrestlers but also generate more revenue for the KHSAA than the other current proposal.

I know this is not a perfect proposal and maybe you think that you have a slightly better idea, but we are not going to get anywhere until we all start saying the same thing. We need to work together and take this proposal to the board of control. If we can all stand behind one idea maybe, just maybe we can get them to change this. Otherwise we're going to be stuck with whatever idea they come up with on their own, which obviously is not what we want.

At this link you can find the KHSAA Board of control. https://khsaa.org/2020-21-khsaa-board-of-control/

Our best chance is for everyone to have their Coach/AD/Super call their representative and show them this proposal. Please help me spread the word on this and let's see if we can get something done on this finally.

Wrestling Post Season Alternate Proposal.pdf

10 hours ago, Canter22 said:

Obviously a vast majority of us are not pleased with the currently proposed solution. It may be too late, but we can't let this go silently. I have attached an alternate proposal for this post season. The only chance we have to turn this thing around, if there is any at all, is to start asking for the same thing. I am urging all of you to read through this proposal and get behind it. 

 

The attached proposal outlines why the current solution is not acceptable. 46 of the top 10 ranked kids in the state are mathematically eliminated from contention already. That is 46 kids that have worked for years to get on the podium that the KHSAA is slamming the door on. Then it goes on to outline a new post season setup and its advantages. The new setup is as follows:

• Regional Tournament as usual
• 2 semi-states (Regions 1-4 and 5-8) with top 4 from each region. 16 man brackets. 
• 16 man state championship, top 8 from each semi state. 

Next it outlines how a "COVID Friendly" 16 man bracket tournament could be ran in a normal high school gym with 4 fans per wrestler. And lastly it shows how this setup will not only result in a better and more fair setup for the wrestlers but also generate more revenue for the KHSAA than the other current proposal.

 

I know this is not a perfect proposal and maybe you think that you have a slightly better idea, but we are not going to get anywhere until we all start saying the same thing. We need to work together and take this proposal to the board of control. If we can all stand behind one idea maybe, just maybe we can get them to change this. Otherwise we're going to be stuck with whatever idea they come up with on their own, which obviously is not what we want.

At this link you can find the KHSAA Board of control. https://khsaa.org/2020-21-khsaa-board-of-control/

Our best chance is for everyone to have their Coach/AD/Super call their representative and show them this proposal. Please help me spread the word on this and let's see if we can get something done on this finally.

Wrestling Post Season Alternate Proposal.pdf

Obviously 16 man brackets solve many of the problems. But one of the issues that hasn't been mentioned as to why they chose 8 man brackets I think is related to mat spacing. Current guidelines are requiring 10 foot spacing between mats. I'm not sure there are many HS gyms that will accommodate 4 mats with the now required spacing. Most gyms will only be able to fit 2 or 3 at most, and it's tough to run a 16 man bracket efficiently in one day without at least 4 mats. 8 man brackets can be done on two mats in one day, which means no overnight stay is necessary.  A 16 man bracket at region is fine, because most teams won't need to spend the night, and the event can be spread over two days.

17 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

Obviously 16 man brackets solve many of the problems. But one of the issues that hasn't been mentioned as to why they chose 8 man brackets I think is related to mat spacing. Current guidelines are requiring 10 foot spacing between mats. I'm not sure there are many HS gyms that will accommodate 4 mats with the now required spacing. Most gyms will only be able to fit 2 or 3 at most, and it's tough to run a 16 man bracket efficiently in one day without at least 4 mats. 8 man brackets can be done on two mats in one day, which means no overnight stay is necessary.  A 16 man bracket at region is fine, because most teams won't need to spend the night, and the event can be spread over two days.

So the 16 man bracket has to be run in 2 days regardless to avoid the 5 match rule. However, as far as spacing there are multiple gyms that are capable of fitting 4 mats with the required 5' spacing between wrestling areas (circles). 

With the proposal we are introducing the number of people in attendance should be essentially the same as the current proposal the KHSAA has. With the exception that we will still need to have room for the additional 112 wrestlers that are competing in the second session. In the proposal I stated that it will be less than 800, this is a fairly rough estimate where I rounded up significantly to generate a safe number for attendance planning. I have recently been informed that there are maybe not as many gyms that can accommodate these numbers as I had originally thought. However with this proposal only 2 gyms of this size are required. While with the KHSAA solution 4 separate venues of the same size would be required.

24 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

Obviously 16 man brackets solve many of the problems. But one of the issues that hasn't been mentioned as to why they chose 8 man brackets I think is related to mat spacing. Current guidelines are requiring 10 foot spacing between mats. I'm not sure there are many HS gyms that will accommodate 4 mats with the now required spacing. Most gyms will only be able to fit 2 or 3 at most, and it's tough to run a 16 man bracket efficiently in one day without at least 4 mats. 8 man brackets can be done on two mats in one day, which means no overnight stay is necessary.  A 16 man bracket at region is fine, because most teams won't need to spend the night, and the event can be spread over two days.

Space and mats would not be an issue. Neither would overnight stays. Wrestlers and parents don’t care about spending the night as much as the KHSAA. If you have a 16 man bracket at regionals, a significant number of teams would need to spend the night. That’s NOT an issue amongst the wrestling community. The only people that take issue with spending the night are those that have no skin in the game and they may need to sacrifice comfort for the benefit of the kids. That’s not something they’re willing to entertain. 

16 minutes ago, Canter22 said:

So the 16 man bracket has to be run in 2 days regardless to avoid the 5 match rule. However, as far as spacing there are multiple gyms that are capable of fitting 4 mats with the required 5' spacing between wrestling areas (circles). 

 

With the proposal we are introducing the number of people in attendance should be essentially the same as the current proposal the KHSAA has. With the exception that we will still need to have room for the additional 112 wrestlers that are competing in the second session. In the proposal I stated that it will be less than 800, this is a fairly rough estimate where I rounded up significantly to generate a safe number for attendance planning. I have recently been informed that there are maybe not as many gyms that can accommodate these numbers as I had originally thought. However with this proposal only 2 gyms of this size are required. While with the KHSAA solution 4 separate venues of the same size would be required.

Unless I'm reading it or interpreting it wrong (which is possible) the return to play guidelines issued by the KHSAA in September specifically say 10 feet between mats is required. It's under Event Setup on page 17. This is the biggest issue we've been facing in trying to run wrestling events. This literally cuts the space we have available for mats in half.

https://khsaa.org/resources/Covid19/CovidResumptionofSports/ApprovedVersion/Winter/wrestlingcombined.pdf

EVENT SETUP

➢ Put a hand sanitizer station mat side. (RECOMMENDED)

➢ Provide sanitizing wipes at the scorer's table. (RECOMMENDED)

➢ Table workers must wear gloves. (RECOMMENDED)

➢ Mats must be cleaned between matches. (REQUIRED)

➢ Spacing between mats must be 10 feet (REQUIRED)

5 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

The return to play guidelines issued by the KHSAA in September specifically say 10 feet between mats is required. It's under Event Setup on page 17. This is the biggest issue we've been facing in trying to run wrestling events. This literally cuts the space we have available for mats in half.

 

https://khsaa.org/resources/Covid19/CovidResumptionofSports/ApprovedVersion/Winter/wrestlingcombined.pdf

 

EVENT SETUP

➢ Put a hand sanitizer station mat side. (RECOMMENDED)

➢ Provide sanitizing wipes at the scorer's table. (RECOMMENDED)

➢ Table workers must wear gloves. (RECOMMENDED)

➢ Mats must be cleaned between matches. (REQUIRED)

➢ Spacing between mats must be 10 feet (REQUIRED)

10ft between circles. Coaches had that clarification at beginning of the season 

7 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

Unless I'm reading it or interpreting it wrong (which is possible) the return to play guidelines issued by the KHSAA in September specifically say 10 feet between mats is required. It's under Event Setup on page 17. This is the biggest issue we've been facing in trying to run wrestling events. This literally cuts the space we have available for mats in half.

 

https://khsaa.org/resources/Covid19/CovidResumptionofSports/ApprovedVersion/Winter/wrestlingcombined.pdf

 

EVENT SETUP

➢ Put a hand sanitizer station mat side. (RECOMMENDED)

➢ Provide sanitizing wipes at the scorer's table. (RECOMMENDED)

➢ Table workers must wear gloves. (RECOMMENDED)

➢ Mats must be cleaned between matches. (REQUIRED)

➢ Spacing between mats must be 10 feet (REQUIRED)

It’s still doable. The 10ft rule isn’t a deal breaker. 

1 minute ago, coachteater said:

10ft between circles. Coaches had that clarification at beginning of the season 

Got it. That does change things some.

1 minute ago, coachteater said:

10ft between circles. Coaches had that clarification at beginning of the season 

I must have missed this, I haven't noticed this at the events I have been too so far this season. I still believe there are facilities that could accommodate this format with multiple gymnasiums or rooms. Yes, it's an additional complication but nothing that can't be overcome.

As an old timer with kids far past their wrestling days, i have been casually monitoring how wrestling plays out for KY.

Taking the top 2 from semi state to make an 8 man state final is a wild idea.  Wont most regionals be 16 man 2 day events?  Seems like the safety and overnight stuff gets passed over for Regionals.  
 

Next up, if you’ve been involved in wrestling in KY at all now or in the past, one thing should be abundantly clear.  The KHSAA has absolutely no interest in wrestling.  Bare minimum to keep the lights on.  It’s clear with their post season treatment year in and year out.   Whether it be no spotlight, not moving mats, the dime size medals, not allowing a live stream, etc etc.  The state championship is something they have to do and want it done as fast as possible so they can check the box and move on.  Prove me wrong. 
 

Finally, isn’t there a coaches association for KY wrestling coaches?  Did the Coaches association meet, discuss the options they wanted to present, and then present them?  If so, and the KHSAA ignored, why is the coaches association sitting on their hands?  If the above did not happen with the coaches association, then what’s the point of the association?

Is there enough membership in the coaches association to tell the KHSAA to buzz off with their proposal and say “our teams won’t be there, good luck with everything”?  Then host their own tournament?  You may have a handful of schools that still go to regular state, but I bet you the rest would go to a true state representative of the best.  Easier said than done, but why not flex the muscle and see if they call bluff?

Just sharing ideas.  Either way this year has been wild and I’m glad that KY got to wrestle at all.  Seeing as attendance will be minimal, I’m sad to say it will probably be only the 5th state tournament I’ve missed since ‘73.  Hopefully they can get it up on the web for people to watch.  I’d pay. 
 

Good luck to all the rest of the year!

1 hour ago, bestmistake33 said:

As an old timer with kids far past their wrestling days, i have been casually monitoring how wrestling plays out for KY.

Taking the top 2 from semi state to make an 8 man state final is a wild idea.  Wont most regionals be 16 man 2 day events?  Seems like the safety and overnight stuff gets passed over for Regionals.  
 

Next up, if you’ve been involved in wrestling in KY at all now or in the past, one thing should be abundantly clear.  The KHSAA has absolutely no interest in wrestling.  Bare minimum to keep the lights on.  It’s clear with their post season treatment year in and year out.   Whether it be no spotlight, not moving mats, the dime size medals, not allowing a live stream, etc etc.  The state championship is something they have to do and want it done as fast as possible so they can check the box and move on.  Prove me wrong. 
 

Finally, isn’t there a coaches association for KY wrestling coaches?  Did the Coaches association meet, discuss the options they wanted to present, and then present them?  If so, and the KHSAA ignored, why is the coaches association sitting on their hands?  If the above did not happen with the coaches association, then what’s the point of the association?

Is there enough membership in the coaches association to tell the KHSAA to buzz off with their proposal and say “our teams won’t be there, good luck with everything”?  Then host their own tournament?  You may have a handful of schools that still go to regular state, but I bet you the rest would go to a true state representative of the best.  Easier said than done, but why not flex the muscle and see if they call bluff?

Just sharing ideas.  Either way this year has been wild and I’m glad that KY got to wrestle at all.  Seeing as attendance will be minimal, I’m sad to say it will probably be only the 5th state tournament I’ve missed since ‘73.  Hopefully they can get it up on the web for people to watch.  I’d pay. 
 

Good luck to all the rest of the year!

Yes, there us an association and we had several meetings between our board members and representatives.  Khsaa also reached out to several of us, including myself to get opinions and as what we thought. 

No, we cant simple take our ball and go home, it doesnt work that way. Most people seem to think the KYWCA has tons of power we simply dont have. Do we fight for wrestling and the kids, yes, but in the end its khsaa making decisions.  

There is a lot of rumors and assumptions made. A lot of statements put out with no research and one sided in thinking. We (kywca) were contacted. We did make proposals,  offered suggestions,  offered help...but this is what we got. 

Anyone that knows myself of any of the coaches on the board knows we are deeply passionate about wrestling and fight for our kids and wrestling as a whole. 

While this situation is not perfect,  none every seems to be for some people, there will always be complaints.  I urge you to try to look past the negative and find bright spots and pass that positive energy towards these kids. They are having a terrible year and struggling,  and we are adding more negativity on top. 

I wish everyone the best and anyone is welcome to discuss it more. I love wrestling and will always do my best for the greatest good of wrestling in Kentucky 

Scotty Teater 

President KYWCA

[email protected] 

859-797-2105

36 minutes ago, coachteater said:

Yes, there us an association and we had several meetings between our board members and representatives.  Khsaa also reached out to several of us, including myself to get opinions and as what we thought. 

No, we cant simple take our ball and go home, it doesnt work that way. Most people seem to think the KYWCA has tons of power we simply dont have. Do we fight for wrestling and the kids, yes, but in the end its khsaa making decisions.  

There is a lot of rumors and assumptions made. A lot of statements put out with no research and one sided in thinking. We (kywca) were contacted. We did make proposals,  offered suggestions,  offered help...but this is what we got. 

Anyone that knows myself of any of the coaches on the board knows we are deeply passionate about wrestling and fight for our kids and wrestling as a whole. 

While this situation is not perfect,  none every seems to be for some people, there will always be complaints.  I urge you to try to look past the negative and find bright spots and pass that positive energy towards these kids. They are having a terrible year and struggling,  and we are adding more negativity on top. 

I wish everyone the best and anyone is welcome to discuss it more. I love wrestling and will always do my best for the greatest good of wrestling in Kentucky 

Scotty Teater 

President KYWCA

[email protected] 

859-797-2105

Scotty, your efforts are appreciated. Please don't think for a minute that the weight of this decision falls on you, although the decision makers will say that over and over again. An "option" was presented by the KHSAA. The same people who have planned tournaments for years. The same people who had Rupp arena booked and plans made for basketball since 1/19/2021 before most schools were even back to in person instruction or for that matter before some schools were even playing. The lack of care does not come from the coaches or the association. The lack of preparation does not come from the coaches or the association. That lack of preparation and care was shown first hand in the YouTube working session. When there is more time spent discussing the future football playoffs and a survey being sent to each coach and superintendent across the state, then the 8 minutes spent on wrestling, you can see where wrestling stands. There is time for changes to made. Changes that should be made. Changes that the majority are in favor of.

I really wish I could have been a fly on the wall at some of these meetings we weren't all privy to.  There has either been a miscommunication or a straight up lack of communication.  Of all the options one could come up with for a post season, this is possibly the weakest.  I wonder if anyone fought for something else and what that "something else" was.  I know a lot of people on the BOC don't spend their times in gyms during the winter watching wrestling, and they definitely don't spend time in the off season in gyms watching the sport, either.  That's why I believe it's no crime to be ignorant of the sport of wrestling, which is, after all, a specialized discipline and one that most people consider to be a uncomfortable, undesireable, and difficult. But, it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion regarding the sport while remaining in this state of ignorance. 

And, comparing an individual sport in the winter in 2021 is not the same as comparing a team sport in the spring in 2020.  COVID has made it difficult, but I  wonder what the data is regarding wrestling this year.

21 hours ago, ukpridewrestler11 said:

Should let 12 kids into state. The 4 semistate winners get first round bye, and that gives 3rd place kids at semi state the chance to wrestle their way back into discussion. But, it won't happen. I know for a fact Mike "Baron" was proposed an option for state over the phone that allowed 32 man brackets, followed protocol by utilizing 4 different gyms (coaching may or may not have been an issue) and allowed spectators. Second day, the top 8 would have been brought back to finish all in the same gym. Coach Dennis Walls, formerly of Union County, was the one who proposed this idea to Julian Tackett and Mike Barren. They said it was a great idea that could definitely work and in Lexington. What they did was take those four sites and made it into a semi-state and brought on only the top 2 from semi-states. 

We have a BOC that only utilizes athletic directors and pushed out all of the acting wrestling coaches, making it easier for the KHSAA to say screw off, we don't care about wrestling and do it their own way. Have athletic directors that don't have a backbone to stick up for their regions wrestling teams. Every other state tournament has ran normally. Football used Kroger Field. We all know dang well that the Sweet Sixteen will use Rupp Arena, and not be forced to semi-states and only bring in  teams (same ratio they dropped wrestling by) to the actual state tournament. They should be ashamed of themselves.

Dennis laid the plan out to me and I think it would’ve worked!! 
 

the problem is you have a lot of BOC members who’ve said it publicly they simply don’t have knowledge of wrestling. 
 

for those who do not know or live under a rock, our team is NOT competing. Nothing, nada, nothing but conditioning. 

so with that being said, i see what y’all are all complaining about kids missing opportunities and etc, guess what.... I looked at how tn played out for regions as we usually compete against a lot of teams down here. Guess what, numerous kids who in normal years would be in the top 6 didn’t qualify, 

I don’t agree with only top 2 going at all past semi-state But guess what... that’s what was decided on. Complaining is fine but it will not change anything. That’s what they came up with.

@ukpridewrestler11 spoke of a plan that was given to Khsaa. I knew of that and I also have heard of other plans that were given to them.

Teater and the association has had conversations with the powers that be on occasions. I can confirm this. The association and coaches have all had fought for our sport.
 

BOC has been open with their goals of limiting mitigation and transmission Opportunities of Covid. Take politics out of it, but the facts Khsaa has always been on the side of caution or doing things differently than other states. Look across other sports. Football (kick off rule), wrestling (hydration testing before almost anyone) to name 2 things.

to make a difference in the future, talk with your AD about getting your superintendent or AD involved with the BOC. I don’t know how that occurs but having more presence in the future is what is needed. 
 

as much as I hate our program is out for the year, I am happy everyone else is getting an opportunity. Remember, you could be in the situation I am in. 
 

relax and enjoy the season you have because you could very well be in our situation while trying to make sense of everything. 
 

Best of luck to you all! 

10 minutes ago, halfhalfhalf said:

BOC has been open with their goals of limiting mitigation and transmission Opportunities of Covid. Take politics out of it, but the facts Khsaa has always been on the side of caution or doing things differently than other states.

Goal: Mitigate risk of COVID

Solution: Host 3 multi team (16 or more) individual tournaments in back to back weeks with no contingency plan, or quarantine time, in case a region or semi-state catches the virus.

Result: Potential for 6 man bracket at state in some weight classes?

This is hardly erring on the side of caution.

If I wasn't able to compete via KHSAA, I'm sure there are other competitions out there.  Or, can you not compete via DoD orders?

8 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

Goal: Mitigate risk of COVID

Solution: Host 3 multi team (16 or more) individual tournaments in back to back weeks with no contingency plan, or quarantine time, in case a region or semi-state catches the virus.

Result: Potential for 6 man bracket at state in some weight classes?

This is hardly erring on the side of caution.

If I wasn't able to compete via KHSAA, I'm sure there are other competitions out there.  Or, can you not compete via DoD orders?

Goal of Khsaa was to compete. You watched the BOC meetings. JT stated early on, teams will quarantine and miss. Look at other sports. It happened. Happened in golf for state tourney I believe. The goal was provide a season that will not look like 2019, 2020 and 2022 will not look like 2021. 

again, like I stated above... they’ve made it no secret they don’t have the knowledge of wrestling. Not their faults they made the best decision for everyone involved. Which I know a lot don’t agree with but is what it is.

nothing going to change. 

as for not competing there are some things in the works for us to get kids on the mat. 

16 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

Goal: Mitigate risk of COVID

Solution: Host 3 multi team (16 or more) individual tournaments in back to back weeks with no contingency plan, or quarantine time, in case a region or semi-state catches the virus.

Result: Potential for 6 man bracket at state in some weight classes?

This is hardly erring on the side of caution.

If I wasn't able to compete via KHSAA, I'm sure there are other competitions out there.  Or, can you not compete via DoD orders?

The contingency plan is no different for wrestling than it is for any other sport. Playoff games were forfeited in other sports. Because of issues with securing venues, moving the tournaments beyond the times scheduled has never really been an option. I thinks that's why it took so long to announce a plan. I'm certain, they weren't sitting on their hands, procrastinating time away. Putting events together that require a lot of competitors and support to hold, in a time where every venue is limiting numbers, is not an easy undertaking. Unless you are on the board, you have no idea the logistical and likely political challenges they are facing to make this happen.

5 minutes ago, halfhalfhalf said:

again, like I stated above... they’ve made it no secret they don’t have the knowledge of wrestling. Not their faults they made the best decision for everyone involved. Which I know a lot don’t agree with but is what it is.

It's not their fault they are ignorant regarding wrestling, yet possess the knowledge to make the best decision for everyone in the process? How can you make the best decision for everyone involved while maintaining a state of ignorance/lack of knowledge (admittedly so)?  

It would have been nice to utilize common sense and not put kids in a position where more exposure to COVID could potentially take place right before the culminating event. 

Nevertheless, we will compete in one month in a place yet to be determined to qualify for a state tournament who's place is yet to be determined.  

10 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

The contingency plan is no different for wrestling than it is for any other sport. Playoff games were forfeited in other sports. Because of issues with securing venues, moving the tournaments beyond the times scheduled has never really been an option. I thinks that's why it took so long to announce a plan. I'm certain, they weren't sitting on their hands, procrastinating time away. Putting events together that require a lot of competitors and support to hold, in a time where every venue is limiting numbers, is not an easy undertaking. Unless you are on the board, you have no idea the logistical and likely political challenges they are facing to make this happen.

I'm sure they face political challenges.  That's probably a major issue.  I'm just not one who really cares what the challenges are.  I believe there's a solution for every problem, and the solution doesn't need to be worse than the problem itself.  I've been to middle school tournaments in this state that have over 300 competitors.  I know what's possible.  I've seen what's been accomplished. That's my frustration with their most recent proposal.  

Comparing wrestling to other sports is tough.  There are no wrestling "games".  And, in the qualification process, you may have some of your team qualify, and others do not.  Could you imagine seeing a football team without a secondary or maybe a defensive line...or quarterback?  Or maybe basketball team with only 2 players? Or maybe a baseball team with 6 players?  That's the equivalent and why you shouldn't compare a team sport with an individual sport.  That's also why you look to the future, evaluate risk, and make plans accordingly to mitigate those risks, while preserving the integrity of the culminating event.  

OK more GOO thoughts.

1.  We are not going to boycott.  Coaches don't have that power, they would need their Principal, AD, and Superintendent on their side.

2.  Getting "your" superintendent on the BOC probably still wont help. (How many Superintendents actually know wrestling?)

3.  The 10 ft. between mats was a rule made by KHSAA.  Surely they change the rule or make an exception. (I know, I know don't call me Shirly)

Just a side note. I find it funny how for years people have wanted to seed the state tourney, now it sounds like they may be seeding and people are now back peddling. (I have always been against seeding the state tourney) And for years I have been told that wrestling is a TEAM sport and NOT and individual sport (which I have always claimed it to be individual). Now the argument is that you can't compare wrestling an individual sport to other team sports.  

GOO, just to be clear, I’m in no way back peddling on the seeding component of this mess. Just very concerned with the statement of “let track seed it” approach as that can mean a LOT of different things. And given that way too many coaches around the state refuse to keep track up to date I am very curious what the seeding process will be. 

1 hour ago, Ranger123 said:

GOO, just to be clear, I’m in no way back peddling on the seeding component of this mess. Just very concerned with the statement of “let track seed it” approach as that can mean a LOT of different things. And given that way too many coaches around the state refuse to keep track up to date I am very curious what the seeding process will be. 

I think its a little sketchy as well to let track seed it. BUT this could be the provision that pushes coaches to update everything. 

https://khsaa.org/02-19-21-board-of-control-updates-status-of-winter-championships/

Edited!!!!

There was miscommunication in email with Mr Barren. He is not 100% on if 1v4 or 2v3 and is going to contact Tackett and have him clarify because of the wording. I will update as soon as i know.

I apologize for miscommunication 

Go ahead and give Trinity, St X, or Johnson Central a major point advantage then. Not fair at all to those in the really tough regions. Thanks KHSAA. 

33 minutes ago, coachteater said:

https://khsaa.org/02-19-21-board-of-control-updates-status-of-winter-championships/

 

After reading, I got clarification from Mike Barren. Semi state will be seeded based off trackwrestling after region (not 1v4  2v3). Then again at final 8, trackwrestling will be used to seed. 

 

Hmmmm, seeded state tournament.  So now will everyone thats wanted this for years be happy? 

That’s not much clarification. “Track seeding” can mean a lot of things. And yes I’m all for it if it is done reasonably. 
 

And as for keeping track up to date KHSAA needs to (cue broken record) treat us like most of the major sports and force coaches hands. Most sports have result reporting requirements with penalties. Wrestling should be no different. But maybe that’s part of our problem. We haven’t shown that we are grown up enough to do the simple things. 

5 minutes ago, Ranger123 said:

That’s not much clarification. “Track seeding” can mean a lot of things. And yes I’m all for it if it is done reasonably. 
 

And as for keeping track up to date KHSAA needs to (cue broken record) treat us like most of the major sports and force coaches hands. Most sports have result reporting requirements with penalties. Wrestling should be no different. But maybe that’s part of our problem. We haven’t shown that we are grown up enough to do the simple things. 

Amen!!!

Has there been any info about regional, semi state, or state sites?  Maybe through wrestling coach back channels?

Just now, rdc517 said:

Has there been any info about regional, semi state, or state sites?  Maybe through wrestling coach back channels?

Region sites remain the same. They are finalizing semi state and state sites.  Should be out very soon. 

1 hour ago, CUTiger184 said:

I think its a little sketchy as well to let track seed it. BUT this could be the provision that pushes coaches to update everything. 

Everything is updated by the end of the year.  Coaches must turn in all individual season record for each wrestler from track at region.  

My guess is that some don't update so the public can see it, till the end of the year when they have to turn it in. 

Some coaches believe this is helpful for their team.  I don't think it makes a difference one way or another, and don't mind if they don't update for the public.

I updated post above. I apologize for miscommunication 

2 hours ago, Ranger123 said:

GOO, just to be clear, I’m in no way back peddling on the seeding component of this mess. Just very concerned with the statement of “let track seed it” approach as that can mean a LOT of different things. And given that way too many coaches around the state refuse to keep track up to date I am very curious what the seeding process will be. 

This has always been my point.  How do we guarantee the seeding is done correctly, or what we perceive as correct, and not everyone perceives everything the same way. 

Track wrestling keeps track of all wins and losses recorded in its system, as well as limited other info. Not just season info, all info. Now that flosports has purchased track, I'm sure there will be far more criteria. So track seeds the event based off of total body of work. I the event that 1 region champion who has a huge amount of criteria, and gets seeded 1 but has a loss to the 2 seed another region champion during this season, you simply adjust that. It's not a finality. I will say however far more often then not track has it right.

33 minutes ago, CoachC said:

Track wrestling keeps track of all wins and losses recorded in its system, as well as limited other info. Not just season info, all info. Now that flosports has purchased track, I'm sure there will be far more criteria. So track seeds the event based off of total body of work. I the event that 1 region champion who has a huge amount of criteria, and gets seeded 1 but has a loss to the 2 seed another region champion during this season, you simply adjust that. It's not a finality. I will say however far more often then not track has it right.

That is my point. Track cannot do it by itself, it needs human help.  However I would bet that KHSAA will not use that human help to adjust for the criteria you just mentioned. 

Basing of Total body of work is what?  It should not take into consideration event outside of state high school sponsored events.  

1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:

This has always been my point.  How do we guarantee the seeding is done correctly, or what we perceive as correct, and not everyone perceives everything the same way. 

I think there can be a clear criteria set (head to head, prior placements, etc) and if nothing applies default to track rating as coachC describes. The state sets it (hopefully taking recommendations) and we roll with it. I believe they already have a proposed seeding criteria list that, just some regions deviate from it. 

2 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

That is my point. Track cannot do it by itself, it needs human help.  However I would bet that KHSAA will not use that human help to adjust for the criteria you just mentioned. 

Basing of Total body of work is what?  It should not take into consideration event outside of state high school sponsored events.  

If the results are in the system I’m not sure why track can’t do it. Wrestler A beat wrestler B head to head and that is the top criteria it should put A ahead of B. Seems fairly simple to me. 

When they say “full wrestle back” in their statement, does that mean wrestling for true 2nd? Or, is it semi-state finals or bust? Sorry if it’s already been answered.

20 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

When they say “full wrestle back” in their statement, does that mean wrestling for true 2nd? Or, is it semi-state finals or bust? Sorry if it’s already been answered.

If it’s not, and they aren’t taking alternates, there’s no need to even wrestle the consolation brackets.  I think you have to wrestle for true second. 

1 hour ago, GentleBeard said:

When they say “full wrestle back” in their statement, does that mean wrestling for true 2nd? Or, is it semi-state finals or bust? Sorry if it’s already been answered.

There will be no true second.  The reasoning from khsaa is that this is 1 tournament, not 2. 

What do they mean it’s one tournament?  Perfect example of no one on the board knowing anything about wrestling.  True second is the only way to ensure semi state gets the best two.  

10 hours ago, Ranger123 said:

If the results are in the system I’m not sure why track can’t do it. Wrestler A beat wrestler B head to head and that is the top criteria it should put A ahead of B. Seems fairly simple to me. 

Ahh but use this example.  Smith beats Jones during the season.  Jones wins region by beating Smith at the region.  Who gets the higher seed? Smith may still get a higher seed b/c of criteria.  You would then have a regional runner up seeded higher than the same regional champion.  Not to mention Regional champ from 1 defeats regional runner up from region 1 but region 1 runner up defeated region 2 champ in season and region 2 champ defeated region 1 champ in season. A beat B, B beat C, C beat A. Again a regional runner up could end up seeded higher than the same region champ.  Can Track sort all that out? 

And yes I am a stat nerd. 

I don’t see anything wrong with seeding semi state by region placement.  It will separate the 1&2 from a region.   If your region has the better two kids at the weight they will meet in finals.   If not then it will be 1 vs 1.   

It’s a computer program so I would say whatever logic is decided can be put in place and the system should be able to sort it out. Actually should be able to sort it out much more efficiently than us digging through stat books looking for common opponents. 
 

And if there is no true second then semi state seeding or setup is even more critical. 

I do have to say out of all the things I have seen. Some bad and some whatever but not wrestling back to a true 2nd is the biggest problem to me. If all the other stuff is going to happen and only two move on so be it. But we should make sure at least it’s the best two on that day and a 2 vs 3 to finish the day would do that easily. What can it hurt. Unless they had already faced each other in early rounds of this tournament. Not really sure any of our opinions matter at this point though.

Not wrestling back to a true 2nd is stupid. 
Wrestling 1/2 of the same guys you just wrestled at regionals all over again is stupid too. No offense to the kids that get 3rd and 4th in regionals, but it’s a big uphill battle. 
I just can’t wrap my head how any of this fits together. 
The champs will definitely earn their spots. The rest is about 1/2 of the luck of the draws. 

4 hours ago, coachteater said:

There will be no true second.  The reasoning from khsaa is that this is 1 tournament, not 2. 

The 3rd place finishers at semi state will have better records than 2nd place finishers. 

As far as team placement, Semi state as an extension of state and scoring carrying over makes it extremely attractive to any teams in weak Regions/Semi’s.  
With Union county in the toughest region / semi state, could this be the year they are de-throned?

10 hours ago, coachteater said:

There will be no true second.  The reasoning from khsaa is that this is 1 tournament, not 2. 

That is the dumbest comment I heard yet, and you are the voice for this.  If it were one tournament, explain how a kid who takes 2nd at the quad state can still win the state tournament, he has one loss.  If it were one tournament if the kid who takes 2nd only has one loss, the kid who took third only has one loss, but he is out, not how one tournament works.  Stupid comment, they are multiple tournaments. It is a terrible plan that basically says the state champion is all we care about, placing at states really means nothing.  That is what those who agreed to this and the KHSAA have made clear to the athletes.  

This whole situation is just pathetic. The excuses the KHSAA are coming up with make no sense. Just shows their ignorance when it comes to wrestling tournaments, and wrestling in general. Mike Barren and Julian Tackett, you did this. Hope you get all the backlash you deserve and at least give wrestling a chance next year. Please get someone on the BOC that knows wrestling, will stand up for wrestling, and actually have a backbone to take no for an answer when dumb*ss proposals are presented in the future. It’s for the kids. 

We are all bitching about this while I watch Indiana wrestle. They have kids with 50 matches and their state finals are running pretty normal. 

2 hours ago, Kywrestling2021 said:

That is the dumbest comment I heard yet, and you are the voice for this.  If it were one tournament, explain how a kid who takes 2nd at the quad state can still win the state tournament, he has one loss.  If it were one tournament if the kid who takes 2nd only has one loss, the kid who took third only has one loss, but he is out, not how one tournament works.  Stupid comment, they are multiple tournaments. It is a terrible plan that basically says the state champion is all we care about, placing at states really means nothing.  That is what those who agreed to this and the KHSAA have made clear to the athletes.  

Im not the voice for this, it came from wrestling Commissioner Mike Barren, Im simply relying the message. I work very hard to help communication, but if Im going to be called out as making dumb comments,  I just will not say anything publicly.  I will make sure to get information to the people who need it, the coaches. And also there is no "those who agreed to this". This was solely the khsaa's decision, and it is what we must follow. 

And when I call someone out, I put my name on it .

These are facts as I understand them:

Semi-state is the same tournament as state. 

You can lose at semi-state, but still win state absent of a true double elimination tournament.

There will be no wrestling for true 2nd at semi-state even though 3rd place ends on a winning streak and 2nd place ends with a loss (provided they haven't wrestled each other).

There will be kids who lose in the semi-state finals, go 0-3 at the state tournament - essentially ending their season 0-4 - and end up with an 8th place medal?

The most losses in a 32 man bracket one could have and place, is 3.

The most losses one could have in this 16 man bracket and still place is 4.

Regardless of politics and restrictions in this state, it seems to me there are better solutions.

If I'm wrong here, please help me understand....

3 hours ago, ukpridewrestler11 said:

This whole situation is just pathetic. The excuses the KHSAA are coming up with make no sense. Just shows their ignorance when it comes to wrestling tournaments, and wrestling in general. Mike Barren and Julian Tackett, you did this. Hope you get all the backlash you deserve and at least give wrestling a chance next year. Please get someone on the BOC that knows wrestling, will stand up for wrestling, and actually have a backbone to take no for an answer when dumb*ss proposals are presented in the future. It’s for the kids. 

Their response I actually received in an email: But baseball didn't get to compete in 2020

The lack of a true 2nd at semi state is by far easiest fix out of all the issues in the current setup.

The fact that this post season we could have a (possible) scenario where a kid gets 1st in region and loses once in their first two matches at semi state and ends their season without a chance to place and a 6-1 post season record is, in my opinion, completely unacceptable.

Wrestling is built on the idea that you can always win. You can be losing by 14 and pin your opponent and still win. You can lose in the first round of state and wrestle the hard road back to third. I think that’s why it makes not having a true 2nd such a bitter pill to swallow.

This could be easily changed up the day of semi state by adding a non team scoring match between the 2nd and 3rd placers (if they didn’t see each other earlier in the tournament). You could award placement points after the completion of the entire semi state tournament. 

The other proposals discussed here to make state a 16 man bracket correct the same issue a different way, but personally I don’t see the KHSAA moving that far. However, I do think that joint lobbying by could get them to add this one safety valve to make this bad situation a little bit better. I’ll be writing up a proposal suggesting this change, if you have ideas to make it better or would like to be included when it’s send please let me know.

Coach Elliott Bauer - St. Xavier

[email protected]

502-649-7931

1 hour ago, CoachBauer said:

The lack of a true 2nd at semi state is by far easiest fix out of all the issues in the current setup.

The fact that this post season we could have a (possible) scenario where a kid gets 1st in region and loses once in their first two matches at semi state and ends their season without a chance to place and a 6-1 post season record is, in my opinion, completely unacceptable.

Wrestling is built on the idea that you can always win. You can be losing by 14 and pin your opponent and still win. You can lose in the first round of state and wrestle the hard road back to third. I think that’s why it makes not having a true 2nd such a bitter pill to swallow.

This could be easily changed up the day of semi state by adding a non team scoring match between the 2nd and 3rd placers (if they didn’t see each other earlier in the tournament). You could award placement points after the completion of the entire semi state tournament. 

The other proposals discussed here to make state a 16 man bracket correct the same issue a different way, but personally I don’t see the KHSAA moving that far. However, I do think that joint lobbying by could get them to add this one safety valve to make this bad situation a little bit better. I’ll be writing up a proposal suggesting this change, if you have ideas to make it better or would like to be included when it’s send please let me know.

Coach Elliott Bauer - St. Xavier

[email protected]

502-649-

2 minutes ago, gameface said:

1 hour ago, CoachBauer said:

The lack of a true 2nd at semi state is by far easiest fix out of all the issues in the current setup.

The fact that this post season we could have a (possible) scenario where a kid gets 1st in region and loses once in their first two matches at semi state and ends their season without a chance to place and a 6-1 post season record is, in my opinion, completely unacceptable.

Wrestling is built on the idea that you can always win. You can be losing by 14 and pin your opponent and still win. You can lose in the first round of state and wrestle the hard road back to third. I think that’s why it makes not having a true 2nd such a bitter pill to swallow.

This could be easily changed up the day of semi state by adding a non team scoring match between the 2nd and 3rd placers (if they didn’t see each other earlier in the tournament). You could award placement points after the completion of the entire semi state tournament. 

The other proposals discussed here to make state a 16 man bracket correct the same issue a different way, but personally I don’t see the KHSAA moving that far. However, I do think that joint lobbying by could get them to add this one safety valve to make this bad situation a little bit better. I’ll be writing up a proposal suggesting this change, if you have ideas to make it better or would like to be included when it’s send please let me know.

Coach Elliott Bauer - St. Xavier

[email protected]

502-649-

Besides not wanting to do what’s right and working with the community of wrestling, I don’t see a reason why the KHSAA wouldn’t make this modification. They cancelled the All A Basketball tournament then it was back on a day or 2 later. I’m sure some persuasive influences helped with that. It would be nice if the wrestling community had some help to get some minor modifications to this post season to make it as normal as possible. 2 minute periods back, either a 16 man bracket or a true 2nd opportunity. 

I dont understand why they could just take top 4 out of semi state and then split the first rd with 106-145 in the morning and 152-hwt in the afternoon. Indiana did it this weekend and seemed to run very smoothly. Also, I don’t know what the limitations are with the horse park or if state will be there at all given their contract but it seems you can easily run the first rd, qtrs, and a 2 rds of consis on 6 mats instead of 8. That’s 252 matches for the entire day! And can get done pretty early for the next group of guys to be ready in the afternoon. Plus half the guys get knocked out so there’s 8 guys per weight on the second day. Indiana puts on a great state tournament every year with both how they run the tournament on a tight schedule and make it a great athlete and fan experience. Only thing I disagree with is the no first rd wrestle backs but still I’d rather have an Indiana tournament system than this garbage of a top 2 semi state anyday.

8 hours ago, gameface said:

Besides not wanting to do what’s right and working with the community of wrestling, I don’t see a reason why the KHSAA wouldn’t make this modification. They cancelled the All A Basketball tournament then it was back on a day or 2 later. I’m sure some persuasive influences helped with that. It would be nice if the wrestling community had some help to get some minor modifications to this post season to make it as normal as possible. 2 minute periods back, either a 16 man bracket or a true 2nd opportunity. 

Adding true second would seem to be an easy fix. Again without it, and no alternates, there’s no reason to even wrestle conso’s.

The All A isn’t a good comparison though. It’s run privately, and aside from it being part of the regular season for those who participate, the KHSAA isn’t involved in running, managing or any decision making for that tournament. It wasn’t the KHSAAs call to cancel or reinstate.

2 hours ago, rjs4470 said:

Adding true second would seem to be an easy fix. Again without it, and no alternates, there’s no reason to even wrestle conso’s.

The All A isn’t a good comparison though. It’s run privately, and aside from it being part of the regular season for those who participate, the KHSAA isn’t involved in running, managing or any decision making for that tournament. It wasn’t the KHSAAs call to cancel or reinstate.

So since this was run privately how do we get our post season the same way and just cut KHSAA completely out of our postseason since it seems they really don't have any interest besides making money. The Middle School post season seems to have survived for years with out any involvement from KHSAA so is there a need for them in our post season?

Like a lot of you I was glad that we even got to have a season. I agree that region and state could be handled better. What bothers me the most Is that the young men and women that compete in a sport that is buy far the most physically  and mentally demanding are just a after thought of the KHSAA

A good way to look at the All "A" is compare it to State Duals.  The All "A" is a small school champ and state duals is our team champ.  Neither one is run by KHSAA.

12 hours ago, HawkeyeX125 said:

I dont understand why they could just take top 4 out of semi state and then split the first rd with 106-145 in the morning and 152-hwt in the afternoon. Indiana did it this weekend and seemed to run very smoothly. Also, I don’t know what the limitations are with the horse park or if state will be there at all given their contract but it seems you can easily run the first rd, qtrs, and a 2 rds of consis on 6 mats instead of 8. That’s 252 matches for the entire day! And can get done pretty early for the next group of guys to be ready in the afternoon. Plus half the guys get knocked out so there’s 8 guys per weight on the second day. Indiana puts on a great state tournament every year with both how they run the tournament on a tight schedule and make it a great athlete and fan experience. Only thing I disagree with is the no first rd wrestle backs but still I’d rather have an Indiana tournament system than this garbage of a top 2 semi state anyday.

It makes too much sense. 

1 hour ago, jnv858 said:

So since this was run privately how do we get our post season the same way and just cut KHSAA completely out of our postseason since it seems they really don't have any interest besides making money. The Middle School post season seems to have survived for years with out any involvement from KHSAA so is there a need for them in our post season?

The All A isn’t really a good example. The winners aren’t considered or called a state champion. The whole state doesn’t get to participate and only schools below a certain enrollment are even invited.  Games aren’t post season games...rather it is just simply a large multi-date  basketball tournament. The comparison is really apples vs oranges. 

There is no way to remove the KHSAA from the sport and keep school based. Wrestling (or any other high school sport) cannot exist as we know it without a state governing body. 
 

Wouldn't you have a true 2nd place if you drew semi state up like this? Only downside would be if somebody gets upset along the way

4 hours ago, rjs4470 said:

The All A isn’t really a good example. The winners aren’t considered or called a state champion. The whole state doesn’t get to participate and only schools below a certain enrollment are even invited.  Games aren’t post season games...rather it is just simply a large multi-date  basketball tournament. The comparison is really apples vs oranges. 

There is no way to remove the KHSAA from the sport and keep school based. Wrestling (or any other high school sport) cannot exist as we know it without a state governing body. 
 

 

Thanks for clearing it up. I thought it was a part of the KHSAA. I guess my point to this was, why doesn’t the KHSAA value the information and relationships of the wrestling community and not make a stronger effort to put on the best venue and event possible. The letter Scotty Teater shared with us all, from the KHSAA, stated that it had communicated with many other associations and numerous people in the sport to come up with what we have. They obviously didn’t reach out to any other high school association to see how their making it work. IHSAA just completed theirs successfully with still a complete tourney and finals. OHSAA is in the middle of there’s. FHSAA, Georgia, Wisconsin, Colorado, Alabama all have had the same type of tournament they always have had with attendance modification. Still nice venues, no change in competition format and certainly no reduction in minutes per period. So who exactly did they go to to gather this information? And it seems like we are all being told to either take what we give you or you can look at basketball and baseball last year as a comparison of being “greatful”. We’ve all learned a lot about Covid and seen hundreds of events ran with the masks, spacing and cleaning. Why does it need to be an uphill battle? 

Sounds like its 2013 all over again.  

6 hours ago, otisgcc said:

Wouldn't you have a true 2nd place if you drew semi state up like this? Only downside would be if somebody gets upset along the way

No. What if the region 1 3rd place kid is the second best in the state. He’s only lost to #1 in region 1 at regionals and loses in the bracket you show. #2 kid in state would miss state. 

8 hours ago, DrBaker said:

No. What if the region 1 3rd place kid is the second best in the state. He’s only lost to #1 in region 1 at regionals and loses in the bracket you show. #2 kid in state would miss state. 

If the 3rd place kid at region is the second best kid in the state, with his only loss to the best kid in the state coming before region finals, the seeding at region was done wrong.

2 hours ago, CoachC said:

If the 3rd place kid at region is the second best kid in the state, with his only loss to the best kid in the state coming before region finals, the seeding at region was done wrong.

I just tried and tried to make it work out, but its damn near impossible. 3rd place in a region will get a 2nd shot at #1 even if they lost to #2, and possibly get another shot at the #2. Soooo, I like this idea. 

If they are saying that the Semi-State and State are the "SAME" tournament just broken up in 2 different weekends. Then any kid that loses their first match at Semi-State should have the opportunity to keep wrestling back to get third, unless you go 0-2 early on, the kids should all stay in the tournament and have a shot to advance to the "STATE" tournament. If they are allowing the team points to carry over, well then let the wrestlers that are still in carry over to the next weekend also. Its not about the KHSAA, or the coaches. Its about giving these kids the best opportunity, the best State tournament experience they deserve. 

If we were at Alltech arena and had a 32 man bracket or even a 16 man bracket, any kid that loses can still try to come back to take third.

This will never happen, too many egos at top. I think the KHSAA should build committees/BOC for each sport. Put the people that know their sport on these committees and let these people run their state tournaments. Softball does theirs, Tennis does theirs, Wrestling does theirs, etc...

KHSAA can oversee it and be there as a resource, but let the wrestling coaches run the State tournaments. Give them a budget, let them decided on what the medals/trophies will be, or at least let them have some say on designs.  Obviously they want to keep as much of this uniform as possible with all sports, but some things can be tweaked. The Football and Basketball trophies aren't the same as the rest of the sports. Let the coaches get the venue with some guidance from KHSAA. My point is that you don't take KHSAA out of the picture, but let the people/coaches that know their sport run the State Tournament. I hear it all the time, we aren't there yet or we aren't big enough yet or we don't have that many teams yet. I call BS on this. When Ranger and I were on the MS board as President and VP, we looked at that opportunity on how we could can make the MS State tournament better than it was. Always trying to improve things, from new podium, medals, bracket boards, state final singlets and many other things.

If you haven't ever been, go to the last day of the Ohio State HS Wrestling Tournament. This is like seeing the ocean for the first time, its overwhelming. We aren't even on the same universe with them regarding what a State tournament is like or should be ran like. Its mind-boggling  actually.

We as coaches can run this event, we just need the KHSAA to trust that they have some really good wrestling coaches/people that can do this. Its so distasteful to see what these kids have worked for and now they have a tournament that just checks the box for them to say we did our part, there was a State tournament. You can bet that they would never cut out the first or second round of the Sweet 16.  

I just feel bad for these kids!

50 minutes ago, Bearcats Coach said:

If they are saying that the Semi-State and State are the "SAME" tournament just broken up in 2 different weekends. Then any kid that loses their first match at Semi-State should have the opportunity to keep wrestling back to get third, unless you go 0-2 early on, the kids should all stay in the tournament and have a shot to advance to the "STATE" tournament. If they are allowing the team points to carry over, well then let the wrestlers that are still in carry over to the next weekend also. Its not about the KHSAA, or the coaches. Its about giving these kids the best opportunity, the best State tournament experience they deserve. 

If we were at Alltech arena and had a 32 man bracket or even a 16 man bracket, any kid that loses can still try to come back to take third.

This will never happen, too many egos at top. I think the KHSAA should build committees/BOC for each sport. Put the people that know their sport on these committees and let these people run their state tournaments. Softball does theirs, Tennis does theirs, Wrestling does theirs, etc...

KHSAA can oversee it and be there as a resource, but let the wrestling coaches run the State tournaments. Give them a budget, let them decided on what the medals/trophies will be, or at least let them have some say on designs.  Obviously they want to keep as much of this uniform as possible with all sports, but some things can be tweaked. The Football and Basketball trophies aren't the same as the rest of the sports. Let the coaches get the venue with some guidance from KHSAA. My point is that you don't take KHSAA out of the picture, but let the people/coaches that know their sport run the State Tournament. I hear it all the time, we aren't there yet or we aren't big enough yet or we don't have that many teams yet. I call BS on this. When Ranger and I were on the MS board as President and VP, we looked at that opportunity on how we could can make the MS State tournament better than it was. Always trying to improve things, from new podium, medals, bracket boards, state final singlets and many other things.

If you haven't ever been, go to the last day of the Ohio State HS Wrestling Tournament. This is like seeing the ocean for the first time, its overwhelming. We aren't even on the same universe with them regarding what a State tournament is like or should be ran like. Its mind-boggling  actually.

We as coaches can run this event, we just need the KHSAA to trust that they have some really good wrestling coaches/people that can do this. Its so distasteful to see what these kids have worked for and now they have a tournament that just checks the box for them to say we did our part, there was a State tournament. You can bet that they would never cut out the first or second round of the Sweet 16.  

I just feel bad for these kids!

Couldn’t have said it any better. Pretty much covers the feeling of the majority of the wrestling community that gets repeated every year. 

The KHSAA BOC is made of mostly administrators, right?  Principals, AD’s, etc.

Who is the best resource wrestling has on the BOC?  Are there any AD’s out there that consider wrestling their #1?

Might be the best place to get motion towards change. 

6 hours ago, Bearcats Coach said:

If they are saying that the Semi-State and State are the "SAME" tournament just broken up in 2 different weekends. Then any kid that loses their first match at Semi-State should have the opportunity to keep wrestling back to get third, unless you go 0-2 early on, the kids should all stay in the tournament and have a shot to advance to the "STATE" tournament. If they are allowing the team points to carry over, well then let the wrestlers that are still in carry over to the next weekend also. Its not about the KHSAA, or the coaches. Its about giving these kids the best opportunity, the best State tournament experience they deserve. 

If we were at Alltech arena and had a 32 man bracket or even a 16 man bracket, any kid that loses can still try to come back to take third.

This will never happen, too many egos at top. I think the KHSAA should build committees/BOC for each sport. Put the people that know their sport on these committees and let these people run their state tournaments. Softball does theirs, Tennis does theirs, Wrestling does theirs, etc...

KHSAA can oversee it and be there as a resource, but let the wrestling coaches run the State tournaments. Give them a budget, let them decided on what the medals/trophies will be, or at least let them have some say on designs.  Obviously they want to keep as much of this uniform as possible with all sports, but some things can be tweaked. The Football and Basketball trophies aren't the same as the rest of the sports. Let the coaches get the venue with some guidance from KHSAA. My point is that you don't take KHSAA out of the picture, but let the people/coaches that know their sport run the State Tournament. I hear it all the time, we aren't there yet or we aren't big enough yet or we don't have that many teams yet. I call BS on this. When Ranger and I were on the MS board as President and VP, we looked at that opportunity on how we could can make the MS State tournament better than it was. Always trying to improve things, from new podium, medals, bracket boards, state final singlets and many other things.

If you haven't ever been, go to the last day of the Ohio State HS Wrestling Tournament. This is like seeing the ocean for the first time, its overwhelming. We aren't even on the same universe with them regarding what a State tournament is like or should be ran like. Its mind-boggling  actually.

We as coaches can run this event, we just need the KHSAA to trust that they have some really good wrestling coaches/people that can do this. Its so distasteful to see what these kids have worked for and now they have a tournament that just checks the box for them to say we did our part, there was a State tournament. You can bet that they would never cut out the first or second round of the Sweet 16.  

I just feel bad for these kids!

Well said. It begs the question, what happens when a group that organizes tournaments for a variety of sports meets a group that specializes in tournaments for a specific sport? 

I spoke with Mr Barren today about Semi State and State. The wording could be interpreted both ways for wrestler placement,  so he got clarification with Mr. Tackett. 

After regions the 8 wrestlers will NOT be placed 1v4 2v3. They will use trackwrestling to seed all 8 for semi state. Then at state, they will again use trackwrestling to seed the 8 there. 

I do not know the criteria, but assume they will use criteria set by nfhs. 

The trackwrestling rankings use a formula with wins and losses. It doesn't seem to take in account of who actually beat each other. They still need a person to interpret the rankings. Its funny that they will use it for those tourneys, but not Regionals. 

13 minutes ago, DrBaker said:

The trackwrestling rankings use a formula with wins and losses. It doesn't seem to take in account of who actually beat each other. They still need a person to interpret the rankings. Its funny that they will use it for those tourneys, but not Regionals. 

Ranking yes, but not seeding. It is not a formula by wins and loses. Seeds will not be by rankings, but a group of information. 

When you run the tournament there is a page to set criteria. You set them in order and it will calculate seeds by that. 

They can make head to head criteria, common opponents, placement in region, past place winners, and win percentage. 

Once you set those, it seeds. And after running regions the last 6-7 years, they are pretty accurately seeded by this. Usually the mess ups come with kids that have great records full of forfeits and no head to head. But after wrestling regions, those kids will be eliminated and most kids should have a good amount of information to seed on. Imo

Also it is my understanding khsaa does want use using trackwrestling to seed region. But we can adjust as needed during region seed meeting.

They eventually want trackwrestling doing all the region seeding I believe.  

IMO. There will be some major complaints. Especially when a 3rd place finisher in a region gets a 1st seed at semi state.  IE. kid gets upset at region places 3rd but beat everyone during the regular season.  Why place the regional tourney then? Heck you can even forfeit in the finals of region and still get the 1st seed at semi state. 

Seed the #1s then the #2s. If the top #2 is not in the same region as a #1 above him then allow him to move up. ect. ect. 

39 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

IMO. There will be some major complaints. Especially when a 3rd place finisher in a region gets a 1st seed at semi state.  IE. kid gets upset at region places 3rd but beat everyone during the regular season.  Why place the regional tourney then? Heck you can even forfeit in the finals of region and still get the 1st seed at semi state. 

Seed the #1s then the #2s. If the top #2 is not in the same region as a #1 above him then allow him to move up. ect. ect. 

As long as region placement is part of the criteria, the region winners can be no worse than a two seed at semi state.

54 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

As long as region placement is part of the criteria, the region winners can be no worse than a two seed at semi state.

Ha ha. Depending on where you put that you could end up essentially forcing the 1v4, 2v3 that we theoretically “won’t have”. 

8 minutes ago, Ranger123 said:

Ha ha. Depending on where you put that you could end up essentially forcing the 1v4, 2v3 that we theoretically “won’t have”. 

True. The order of criteria will make a big difference. And I know many don’t hold region placement in high regard due to the sometimes big variance in overall strength and depth from region to region.

I don't mind using track as a baseline for seeding.  But ultimately you need someone to sort through the criteria's.  Someone who has no skin in the game and is more worried about getting it correct and not what team/individual is going to win or place. 

It is one of the reason's I admire Ranger's rankings.  He is more worried about getting it correct all year than giving someone props because they upset an individual.  

Wrestling is one of the few sports where as a group we try and get the best wrestlers to the final competition.  We don't worry if the two schools are across the street from each other or on opposite sides of the state.  We try to get the best kids where they belong.  

Someone smarter than me needs to come up with a cybermetric system for wrestling with a WAR state like baseball.  

10 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

True. The order of criteria will make a big difference. And I know many don’t hold region placement in high regard due to the sometimes big variance in overall strength and depth from region to region.

That is why you take the regional champs and come up with who is 1st seed.  Then look at the other champ and see if he should be seeded above the other runner up.   If not he drops to 3rd seed. Ect Ect. 

In theory region 1 could have the 1, 2, 3, and 4 seed while region 2 has the 5, 6, 7, and 8th seed. 

Trackwrestling is a database.  Bad data in produces bad data out.  If team A lies about results, and Team B is honest, but team B kid has a head to head or common opponent win over Team A, are you going to adjust to correct or just say oh well it is too dangerous to get this right due to COVID?  

49 minutes ago, J.W. said:

Trackwrestling is a database.  Bad data in produces bad data out.  If team A lies about results, and Team B is honest, but team B kid has a head to head or common opponent win over Team A, are you going to adjust to correct or just say oh well it is too dangerous to get this right due to COVID?  

If team b puts his results in, then the head to head will show on team A regardless of if they put it in. Team A cant hide that. The big thing is at that if the 99% of coaches put their results in, the others cant hide theirs. 

I know in my region many of the coaches keep tabs and watch results of kids. If there is something missing, most of the time its caught and called out in our region meeting. And yes, at least in 2 regions i know there will still be a seed meeting 

Is it perfect? Of course not. But look how far we have come from getting results from newspapers , coaches just having their scorebook and tournament sheets. Having to find coaches numbers and call to try to find out information.  We are far ahead of were we were just 10-15 years ago, and it will continue to improve 

KHSAA should just make it mandatory for teams to enter results within a certain period of time after an event. 

I’ve been big on properly seeding tournaments for awhile. I do think baseline track seeding, when entered correctly, is very good seeding at the high school level with maybe only minor tweaks truly needed

7 hours ago, coachteater said:

 

Is it perfect? Of course not. But look how far we have come from getting results from newspapers , coaches just having their scorebook and tournament sheets. Having to find coaches numbers and call to try to find out information.  We are far ahead of were we were just 10-15 years ago, and it will continue to improve 

This is exactly one of my points in my previous post. We are well ahead of the game in wrestling now vs 10-15 years ago. (Not big enough, not there yet, not enough schools). My argument is that the coaches can run this event. We shouldn't have a Semi-State than a State. One event, seed it, give all the kids the best opportunity/position, let them wrestle, and make the State Tournament what it should be! It's about the kids! We know how to run this event guys. I'd put Dave Johnson from Ryle up against anyone on the KHSAA board to run any State Tournament. I'm happy that we do have a season, but we are past that. This is the State tournament, where kids are being recruited, college coaches will be in attendance and KHSAA puts this type of an event out there. Amazing!

15 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

I don't mind using track as a baseline for seeding.  But ultimately you need someone to sort through the criteria's.  Someone who has no skin in the game and is more worried about getting it correct and not what team/individual is going to win or place. 

It is one of the reason's I admire Ranger's rankings.  He is more worried about getting it correct all year than giving someone props because they upset an individual.  

Wrestling is one of the few sports where as a group we try and get the best wrestlers to the final competition.  We don't worry if the two schools are across the street from each other or on opposite sides of the state.  We try to get the best kids where they belong.  

Someone smarter than me needs to come up with a cybermetric system for wrestling with a WAR state like baseball.  

Have you seen rankwrestlers.com ? It takes all the data from track and uses an algorithm that ranks each weight class in each state based on winning percentage, head to head, and how the wrestlers who the individual competed against performed against other opponents plus how their opponents performed. I think the subscription for one year is 10$. It's similar to WAR in baseball. It's only downfall with this season is it takes the last weight a kid wrestled at, which in a season of duals means kids bumping up. 

3 hours ago, Tbagnky said:

Have you seen rankwrestlers.com ? It takes all the data from track and uses an algorithm that ranks each weight class in each state based on winning percentage, head to head, and how the wrestlers who the individual competed against performed against other opponents plus how their opponents performed. I think the subscription for one year is 10$. It's similar to WAR in baseball. It's only downfall with this season is it takes the last weight a kid wrestled at, which in a season of duals means kids bumping up. 

I say this every once in a while. It was very close last year. It’s $25 a year. It does have some problems, but it’s very cool. 

8 hours ago, Tbagnky said:

Have you seen rankwrestlers.com ? It takes all the data from track and uses an algorithm that ranks each weight class in each state based on winning percentage, head to head, and how the wrestlers who the individual competed against performed against other opponents plus how their opponents performed. I think the subscription for one year is 10$. It's similar to WAR in baseball. It's only downfall with this season is it takes the last weight a kid wrestled at, which in a season of duals means kids bumping up. 

How does it rank non track states? I know up here I can't see all events in track for Ohio teams. 

3 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

How does it rank non track states? I know up here I can't see all events in track for Ohio teams. 

It just uses track results. Not very good for Indiana or Ohio, but gives you some idea of where kids are and who they’ve won and lost too. 

I have been saying for years that the Kentucky just needs to partner with trackwrestling. Missouri does it and it works great. All of our weigh in forms come from track, all matches are recorded in track, and you can purchase the tourney package from them and run your whole tournament for about $125. You have 48 hours to enter info on track regarding weigh ins or you get locked out and cannot print off you next weigh in sheet. Keeps everyone on level playing field as far as weight assessment. All results have to be entered on your kids for them to be able to participate in districts. Track seeds the district and has criteria set by the state. There is no more arguing at a meeting unless you can prove that a false record was put in. Coaches have to bring all weigh in sheets that are signed by the head official of the tournament or dual to the district meeting. I have been running the tournament here in my town for years with track. We can also hook laptops up and point them at the mat and broadcast each mat. It's really a pretty simple thing, but everyone needs to get on board and push for it to happen.

14 minutes ago, 119Rider said:

I have been saying for years that the Kentucky just needs to partner with trackwrestling. Missouri does it and it works great. All of our weigh in forms come from track, all matches are recorded in track, and you can purchase the tourney package from them and run your whole tournament for about $125. You have 48 hours to enter info on track regarding weigh ins or you get locked out and cannot print off you next weigh in sheet. Keeps everyone on level playing field as far as weight assessment. All results have to be entered on your kids for them to be able to participate in districts. Track seeds the district and has criteria set by the state. There is no more arguing at a meeting unless you can prove that a false record was put in. Coaches have to bring all weigh in sheets that are signed by the head official of the tournament or dual to the district meeting. I have been running the tournament here in my town for years with track. We can also hook laptops up and point them at the mat and broadcast each mat. It's really a pretty simple thing, but everyone needs to get on board and push for it to happen.

Track for the most part does run our season. All weigh in sheets come from track, and all weigh ins must be recorded...Track handles KY's weight management program. Most tourney's are run through track during the season (although not required), and all post season tourney's are run on Track. We pretty much use Track for everything you mention.

So the hold up is just making it mandated by the state. If they would just come out and make it mandatory for coaches to input information in a timely fashion, which allows for newspapers and radio publications, and even fans have easy access to the information, you can bolster awareness. I do not have to talk to our news reporter after every meet because he knows he can get on track and access all the information he wants within 2 days of the meet. Sounds like there is a lack of consistency with things. Some coaches want it the old school way and some want to be out in front with technology. 

4 hours ago, 119Rider said:

So the hold up is just making it mandated by the state. If they would just come out and make it mandatory for coaches to input information in a timely fashion, which allows for newspapers and radio publications, and even fans have easy access to the information, you can bolster awareness. I do not have to talk to our news reporter after every meet because he knows he can get on track and access all the information he wants within 2 days of the meet. Sounds like there is a lack of consistency with things. Some coaches want it the old school way and some want to be out in front with technology. 

It is mandated. All results do have to be entered into track. It’s just that not all coached do it in a timely manner. 

So if it is like you say, track runs both your tourneys and weight management program, then all results should be posted by the coach by simply validating results from the tourney that Track ran. Sounds like this is more of a coach issue then state issue then. If it is what you say, track has a seeding criteria that is built in to it's program. There really is no more seeding meetings because the criteria is as listed by the tourney director, which should be in line with the states criteria for seeding. You might have some schools who have no head to heads but by the time you get to district or semi state surely there will be commons.