Go ahead I made the post for you

It looks like last years state placement made a big difference. Stray over Smith. Nance over TKC. Savage over Orneals and Brooksbank. 

10 minutes ago, DrBaker said:

It looks like last years state placement made a big difference. Stray over Smith. Nance over TKC. Savage over Orneals and Brooksbank. 

I think you have to look a little closer at 220.  Orneals has wins over Brooksbank and Elliston.  Savage has the head to head over Orneals and is 1-1 against Brooksbank.  Elliston has a win over Savage.

Just looking at how broken seeding is in the 3/4 semi state we have:

-Wilson (reg 3 runner up at 152) seeded below the 3rd place from the same region

- Hutcheson  (reg 4 runner up at 170) seeded EIGHTH 

-Votaw (reg 3 runner up at 220) seeded below the 3rd place from the same region that he beat in the semis

With criteria that didn’t take regional placement into consideration it appears you may have been better off getting more matches (for head to head and common opponent seeding points) in the consols than actually doing well in regionals  

6 minutes ago, Chris Duke said:

I think you have to look a little closer at 220.  Orneals has wins over Brooksbank and Elliston.  Savage has the head to head over Orneals and is 1-1 against Brooksbank.  Elliston has a win over Savage.

Such a tangled web. Makes this more fun. 

4 minutes ago, CoachBauer said:

Just looking at how broken seeding is in the 3/4 semi state we have:

-Wilson (reg 3 runner up at 152) seeded below the 3rd place from the same region

- Hutcheson  (reg 4 runner up at 170) seeded EIGHTH 

-Votaw (reg 3 runner up at 220) seeded below the 3rd place from the same region that he beat in the semis

With criteria that didn’t take regional placement into consideration it appears you may have been better off getting more matches (for head to head and common opponent seeding points) in the consols than actually doing well in regionals  

 

Regional finishing was used just as a match. 1 win/1 loss. 

Region 3&4 113 only has 5 kids.

5 minutes ago, Chris Duke said:

Region 3&4 113 only has 5 kids.

1&2 is stacked with 113 kids. Teusch, Jenkins, Beltran, or Griffith sit home while Lutrell and Plumeri wrestle 1 match to go. 

One kid didn't show up, one kid didn't make weight, Moore wasn't allowed to wrestle. We can't blame Lutrell and Plumeri for that.

1 hour ago, The Whizzer(d) said:

One kid didn't show up, one kid didn't make weight, Moore wasn't allowed to wrestle. We can't blame Lutrell and Plumeri for that.

I don’t think you should blame the kids who were ready to wrestle. Not their fault and they are most definitely not at fault. But, it does make me wonder why participation is so low in those regions? This semi state stuff also guarantees kids from every part of the state, a state medal.  

3 hours ago, DrBaker said:

1&2 is stacked with 113 kids. Teusch, Jenkins, Beltran, or Griffith sit home while Lutrell and Plumeri wrestle 1 match to go. 

1&2 in general is stacked alot of the weights have 4-6 kids that could place. Same with 5&6.

The seeding is absolute garbage. Preference given to record over common sense. Multi-time State placers seeded below a State Qualifier. Region runner-up seeded below the 3^rd-place finisher, multiple times. One weight class the 1 through 4 place finisher (Region 1) all seeded above the 1 through 4 placers (region 2). Stupid. I agree with seeding, but it feels like they did it in the worst possible way, just to say “see we finally seeded it and you’re still complaining”

2 hours ago, GentleBeard said:

I don’t think you should blame the kids who were ready to wrestle. Not their fault and they are most definitely not at fault. But, it does make me wonder why participation is so low in those regions? This semi state stuff also guarantees kids from every part of the state, a state medal.  

Yes those already lower participation regions weren't helped with Moore getting completely shut out, kids not in school, not being able to pick up any new kids in off season, and probably some kids giving up the sport during the layoff.  We can all learn from the wrestling culture created and developed by Union County and the pride, ownership, investment and promotion that is embraced by the whole community there. We all agree there will be a few kids that place in a few weight classes that wouldn't have. Who knows, maybe that will help promote participation if a few other kids hear of some success.  Sorry to the kids that would have earned a lower placing but don't get that chance.  The Top several spots will be earned by the kids that would have earned them due credit should be celebrated for them. At this point we need to make it as positive as we can beating it down and negativity won't attract more wrestlers or fans.  

2 hours ago, GentleBeard said:

I don’t think you should blame the kids who were ready to wrestle. Not their fault and they are most definitely not at fault. But, it does make me wonder why participation is so low in those regions? This semi state stuff also guarantees kids from every part of the state, a state medal.  

Wrestling is and always has been an extreme afterthought to AD’s in Louisville. The only time public schools in Louisville have had any success it has been directly because of insanely driven head coaches. Seneca, Southern, Fern Creek. When the coaches leave, so does the success. The same can be said of Moore and Coach Thomas although he is obviously still there. 

Well I hate to say it but "I told you so".  Seeding the state/ Semi state is not a good idea.  What one person believes is the correct seed two others will disagree.  

At least with a random draw at state the region champs are separated until the quarters then all hell breaks loose.  Seeding can throw that all in the crapper. 

220 at semi state 3 (region 5 and 6) a kid who got third in region 6 got the 1st seed. Why even bother wrestling the placement round at region. 

56 minutes ago, naplesme said:

The seeding is absolute garbage. Preference given to record over common sense. Multi-time State placers seeded below a State Qualifier. Region runner-up seeded below the 3^rd-place finisher, multiple times. One weight class the 1 through 4 place finisher (Region 1) all seeded above the 1 through 4 placers (region 2). Stupid. I agree with seeding, but it feels like they did it in the worst possible way, just to say “see we finally seeded it and you’re still complaining”

I see where Kellett got screwed. 

Go time 

That can mess somethings up. Can someone tell me me how they get seed points? 

13 minutes ago, DrBaker said:

That can mess somethings up. Can someone tell me me how they get seed points? 

13 minutes ago, DrBaker said:

That can mess somethings up. Can someone tell me me how they get seed points? 

None of this makes any sense! Why would King wrestle Fortier, first round, again? The whole bracket does not even resemble State first round, not even close! Its truly a travesty to our wrestlers! 

42 minutes ago, Punisher 61 said:

None of this makes any sense! Why would King wrestle Fortier, first round, again? The whole bracket does not even resemble State first round, not even close! Its truly a travesty to our wrestlers! 

It’s like a magical made up number. 

This can all be fixed by wrestling a true 2nd. 

7 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

Well I hate to say it but "I told you so".  Seeding the state/ Semi state is not a good idea.  What one person believes is the correct seed two others will disagree.  

At least with a random draw at state the region champs are separated until the quarters then all hell breaks loose.  Seeding can throw that all in the crapper. 

220 at semi state 3 (region 5 and 6) a kid who got third in region 6 got the 1st seed. Why even bother wrestling the placement round at region. 

I see 5 (Leicht, Brooksbank, Savage, Orneals, Elliston) kids that, in a normal year, should place at State. Unfortunately, only 2 will move on to the Championship matches.

The individual regions were already seeded and wrestled. This is where seeding for Semi-state should come from. Semi-state is only dealing with two regions. Why aren’t the Region champs put at opposite ends of the bracket. They go with opposite region 4th place. Region runner ups goes on opposite side from the Champ from their region, to wrestle opposite region 3rd.  

Reg1 1st vs Reg2 4th

Reg2 2nd vs Reg1 3rd

Reg1 2nd vs Reg2 3rd

Reg2 1st vs Reg1 4th

2 hours ago, Wrestling123 said:

The individual regions were already seeded and wrestled. This is where seeding for Semi-state should come from. Semi-state is only dealing with two regions. Why aren’t the Region champs put at opposite ends of the bracket. They go with opposite region 4th place. Region runner ups goes on opposite side from the Champ from their region, to wrestle opposite region 3rd.  

Reg1 1st vs Reg2 4th

Reg2 2nd vs Reg1 3rd

Reg1 2nd vs Reg2 3rd

Reg2 1st vs Reg1 4th

Because for years people have wanted seeding at the state tourney.  If you seed  only 2 regions this is what you get.  It is very likely that you will wrestle someone from your own region. 

8 hours ago, DrBaker said:

That can mess somethings up. Can someone tell me me how they get seed points? 

The seed points come from the KHSAA criteria: head to head, common opponent, state placement, win percentage. Track compared each wrestler to every other wrestler in their bracket. For each comparison whoever had criteria was awarded one seeding point. If it was a complete tie each wrestler was awarded 1/2 seeding point. 

2 hours ago, Tbagnky said:

I see 5 (Leicht, Brooksbank, Savage, Orneals, Elliston) kids that, in a normal year, should place at State. Unfortunately, only 2 will move on to the Championship matches.

looking at this years results however this is the correct seed.  Savage split with Brooksbank. Brooksbank beat Elliston (Ect. Ect) Common opponent Orneals who lost to Savage and beat Brooksbank and Elliston.  Oh what a tangles web we weave. LOL>

5 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

looking at this years results however this is the correct seed.  Savage split with Brooksbank. Brooksbank beat Elliston (Ect. Ect) Common opponent Orneals who lost to Savage and beat Brooksbank and Elliston.  Oh what a tangles web we weave. LOL>

For the regions 5/6 semi state, I wouldn't call the seeding terrible. Only two weight classes at first glance seem off, one of which (220) is explained here. 138 with the 3rd place finisher in region 6 getting the one seems off, but might have the same type of explanation as 220. TKC might have a pretty good argument for the 1 seed, but at least the top two guys are on opposite sides. I haven't looked at the other semi states, and frankly with the lack of travel and tournaments, I don't know enough to legitimately comment. There will always be complaints about seeding, just like there were complaints about the random draw. I'd say at least in the 5/6 semi state, the seeding overall, worked out better than a random draw. I also kind of like the fact that the seeding method takes into consideration the whole body of work, rather than someone catching lightning in a bottle during the region tournament.

16 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

For the regions 5/6 semi state, I wouldn't call the seeding terrible. Only two weight classes at first glance seem off, one of which (220) is explained here. 138 with the 3rd place finisher in region 6 getting the one seems off, but might have the same type of explanation as 220. TKC might have a pretty good argument for the 1 seed, but at least the top two guys are on opposite sides. I haven't looked at the other semi states, and frankly with the lack of travel and tournaments, I don't know enough to legitimately comment. There will always be complaints about seeding, just like there were complaints about the random draw. I'd say at least in the 5/6 semi state, the seeding overall, worked out better than a random draw. I also kind of like the fact that the seeding method takes into consideration the whole body of work, rather than someone catching lightning in a bottle during the region tournament.

The seeding process isn't really the big issue. Yes, some of the semi-state bracket seeds are jacked up, but the problem is that many wrestlers that would meet in the quarterfinals in a 32 man bracket are going to be eliminated. The 220 in the 5/6 bracket is just one of many examples of a bad system across the state. Going forward, I hope that the KHSAA doesn't see this as a money making opportunity and stick with it. It should always be about the kids and giving them a fair opportunity to succeed. 

Just now, Tbagnky said:

The seeding process isn't really the big issue. Yes, some of the semi-state bracket seeds are jacked up, but the problem is that many wrestlers that would meet in the quarterfinals in a 32 man bracket are going to be eliminated. The 220 in the 5/6 bracket is just one of many examples of a bad system across the state. Going forward, I hope that the KHSAA doesn't see this as a money making opportunity and stick with it. It should always be about the kids and giving them a fair opportunity to succeed. 

I do agree. I'm not necessarily opposed to a semi state tourney, but the regions need better balance in order for that to work. I'm convinced though, that no matter what is decided, or how the tournament is run, some people will be completely unhappy, and continue to scream about how much the KHSAA hates wrestling.

Logic and rationale is important to me.  It's a pet peeve of mine when something doesn't make sense or I can't draw a logical line through it.  A double elimination bracket where kids with 1 loss get eliminated doesn't make sense to me.  An 8 man bracket at a high school that doesn't have wrestling doesn't make sense to me.  Guaranteeing each semi state has 2 state placers doesn't make sense.  Creating an environment where someone can end their year 0-4, yet leave with a state medal doesn't make sense to me.  Making bus drivers, coaches of the competing teams, and alternates pay $20 doesn't make sense to me - especially when the KHSAA is using high school gyms - mitigating their cost of a bigger venue.  Limiting the number of fans (fine), but not providing a streaming service for those who can't afford to go doesn't make sense to me.  I used to be in the "I'm just glad we have a season" camp, but not when there have been better proposals that would have benefited everyone, including the KHSAA, and given the postseason its rightful value. 

On a side note:  I do think it would be helpful to have a semi-state tournament between the Regional and State Tournaments moving forward.  I really liked the proposal that essentially splits the state in half (i.e. "semi") where Regions 1-4 and 5-8 compete and each tournament qualifies the top 8.  Then, wrestle it out in the same way as Indiana.  This is something that has long needed to be addressed anyway, along with region realignments.  

12 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

Logic and rationale is important to me.  It's a pet peeve of mine when something doesn't make sense or I can't draw a logical line through it.  A double elimination bracket where kids with 1 loss get eliminated doesn't make sense to me.  An 8 man bracket at a high school that doesn't have wrestling doesn't make sense to me.  Guaranteeing each semi state has 2 state placers doesn't make sense.  Creating an environment where someone can end their year 0-4, yet leave with a state medal doesn't make sense to me.  Making bus drivers, coaches of the competing teams, and alternates pay $20 doesn't make sense to me - especially when the KHSAA is using high school gyms - mitigating their cost of a bigger venue.  Limiting the number of fans (fine), but not providing a streaming service for those who can't afford to go doesn't make sense to me.  I used to be in the "I'm just glad we have a season" camp, but not when there have been better proposals that would have benefited everyone, including the KHSAA, and given the postseason its rightful value. 

On a side note:  I do think it would be helpful to have a semi-state tournament between the Regional and State Tournaments.  I really liked the proposal that essentially splits the state in half (i.e. "semi") where Regions 1-4 and 5-8 compete and each tournament qualifies the top 8.  Then, wrestle it out in the same way as Indiana.  This is something that needs to be addressed anyway, along with region realignments.  

I agree whole heartedly with this logic. The point of a semi state is to cut the state in half. Then bring in the best from each half of the state. You could always go back to our district, regional and state format as well. Both scenarios get you the top 16.

12 minutes ago, 119Rider said:

I agree whole heartedly with this logic. The point of a semi state is to cut the state in half. Then bring in the best from each half of the state. You could always go back to our district, regional and state format as well. Both scenarios get you the top 16.

I do like the 1-4, 5-8 semi state idea. It really will help guarantee the best 16 kids to state when taking the top 8 from both. Some of these "semi-states" now have more than 5 kids ranked top 16. Taking top 4 still leaves some of the best at home if going to district, regional, state format. Split it to two semi states and roll that way. I also prefer the 32 man brackets, but if they do change, don't keep it how it is now evenly distributing the top 8 medals across the state. It's like a participation trophy for a few of these areas. 

Not sure why we need to reduce the state tourney to 16 man bracket.  It would still be a 2 day tourney.  

I've stated this many times.  I was not a fan of the 32 man bracket when it came around, but it worked.  More teams have picked up wrestling since the expansion of the state tourney.  The best 8 still get to the top and some kids get to go back to their school and talk about wrestling at the state tourney.  That helps build programs.

I would like to see the regions broken up into districts 16 districts.  We had 106 teams compete in regions this year. Plus Ft. Camp, Ft. Knox and Moore. that is 109 teams in KY.

That would average 7 teams per district.  One day tourney.  Top 4 to region (no seeding) 1v4,2v3. Top 4 in region to state. 32 man bracket. 

Would help with seeding at district level and sort them out at region. 

5 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

Not sure why we need to reduce the state tourney to 16 man bracket.  It would still be a 2 day tourney.  

I've stated this many times.  I was not a fan of the 32 man bracket when it came around, but it worked.  More teams have picked up wrestling since the expansion of the state tourney.  The best 8 still get to the top and some kids get to go back to their school and talk about wrestling at the state tourney.  That helps build programs.

I would like to see the regions broken up into districts 16 districts.  We had 106 teams compete in regions this year. Plus Ft. Camp, Ft. Knox and Moore. that is 109 teams in KY.

That would average 7 teams per district.  One day tourney.  Top 4 to region (no seeding) 1v4,2v3. Top 4 in region to state. 32 man bracket. 

Would help with seeding at district level and sort them out at region. 

You can make a 16 man bracket a single day tournament if the first round is “lose and you’re out” (ex: Indiana).

1 hour ago, GentleBeard said:

You can make a 16 man bracket a single day tournament if the first round is “lose and you’re out” (ex: Indiana).

That is horrible. When I wrestled they had a follow your man in the 1st round.  We finally got away from that terrible set up and moved to a 2 and out tourney.  There are plenty of 2v3 at the state tourney where the loser and winner both place. Heck even some 4s from regions place at the state tourney after losing to a #1 and they both place.  NOT a good exchange for a 1 day tourney. 

My teammate wrestled the returning state runner up (who got upset at the region), who was 3rd in his region. Who then wrestled the returning state champ, my teammate was unable to place because he lost his 1st match and was out. He was at least the 4th best in the state. He was undefeated state champ the next year. 

I'm sure glad we don't wrestle in Indiana. 

23 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

That is horrible. When I wrestled they had a follow your man in the 1st round.  We finally got away from that terrible set up and moved to a 2 and out tourney.  There are plenty of 2v3 at the state tourney where the loser and winner both place. Heck even some 4s from regions place at the state tourney after losing to a #1 and they both place.  NOT a good exchange for a 1 day tourney. 

Then don’t lose in the first round and don’t “follow your man”. The priority would be proper seeding (which seems unlikely).

I’m not confident things will change. Coming from Oklahoma and coaching for 7 years in Kentucky, I’ve never experienced such a consistently inept wrestling postseason. 

26 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

My teammate wrestled the returning state runner up (who got upset at the region), who was 3rd in his region. Who then wrestled the returning state champ, my teammate was unable to place because he lost his 1st match and was out. He was at least the 4th best in the state. He was undefeated state champ the next year. 

I'm sure glad we don't wrestle in Indiana. 

Sounds like someone got upset because someone got upset. 

I'm not sure why our current (not this year) post season needs to be changed.  The system we have gives everyone the opportunity to compete and wrestle back to placement.  Other than a real seeding (Which I have always claimed is impossible) there is nothing wrong with our Region to state model.  

I think most like the 2 day tourney.  We had a 1 day in 1986 and 1987 and nobody liked it. The post season was District to Region to Semi-state to state. 

44 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

I'm not sure why our current (not this year) post season needs to be changed.  The system we have gives everyone the opportunity to compete and wrestle back to placement.  Other than a real seeding (Which I have always claimed is impossible) there is nothing wrong with our Region to state model.  

I think most like the 2 day tourney.  We had a 1 day in 1986 and 1987 and nobody liked it. The post season was District to Region to Semi-state to state. 

32 man brackets look nice. Approximately 30% of each weight class in the state is represented - which seems to be on par with other sports’ postseasons (I don’t know the figures). I think it depends on what the goal is. If it’s to only have the best quality of wrestling present, then we probably need to narrow it down to 16. If you want to put on a show and try to get representation from all across the state, then 32 seems rational. The problem is, they’ve had 32 man brackets, but severely lack passion behind the quality of the tournament they’re hosting. If that’s going to continue, I’d rather just watch the top 16.

2 hours ago, GentleBeard said:

32 man brackets look nice. Approximately 30% of each weight class in the state is represented - which seems to be on par with other sports’ postseasons (I don’t know the figures). I . The problem is, they’ve had 32 man brackets, but severely lack passion behind the quality of the tournament they’re hosting. If that’s going to continue, I’d rather just watch the top 16.

I personally agree. 

Problem is that there are very few of us who would attend if little Johnny is not participating.  There are few fans who just want to see good wrestling as a spectator.  Most want to see their youngen wrestle and if he/she is not there then they don't go to the event.  Attendance will plummet. 

15 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

Because for years people have wanted seeding at the state tourney.  If you seed  only 2 regions this is what you get.  It is very likely that you will wrestle someone from your own region. 

I can see the merits in this, but why this year, which is supposedly, a one year deal? It’s enough of a difference, to add semi state, but this is over the top. The question for me is, do we have a voice in how things are ran or not? If not, I can’t see this going in a positive direction. Some of these youths have worked hard for years, just to have one thing after another thrown at them. There should be some recourse for brackets that are questionable. 

This seeding is working in 90% of the brackets and would work better if teams had full seasons. It has rewarded a few with weak schedules and a few that did well at state last year , and has hurt some that didn’t get a chance to go last year and that finished well at regionals, but in the end the best 2 (pretty much) will emerge to state finals. It’s gonna be a crazy ride. In the end, you’ve gotta win matches for that state title. Will Johnson Central and Trinity have too big of a lead for Ryle, Union , or Campbell to make up? Gotta put kids in the finals for big points. 

I don't believe we have much of a voice.  Kind of like a kid telling the parent how to do something 99% of the time the parent does not really listen.  

There needs to be a go between with KHSAA and the Coaches Association.  People like Rusty Parks, someone who has been there and knows wrestling and can communicate. 

I am not one who ever likes to call people out, but since the last regime change there has been less communication between KHSAA and the Wrestling Coaches. I believe that is because our new director has no wrestling experience.  How many matches other than State Tourney has he attended? 

The last director seemed to be more open about ideas from the coaches.  You would find him talking to coaches at the state tourney looking for ideas to help.   Our new director seems to have very little contact with the coaches and listening to their ideas. 

16 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

The last director seemed to be more open about ideas from the coaches.  You would find him talking to coaches at the state tourney looking for ideas to help.   Our new director seems to have very little contact with the coaches and listening to their ideas. 

I do know he has spoken with former Coach Dennis Walls recently and told him his ideas were great, only to go this route. The coaches association needs to present the idea to the board of a joint wrestling commission this offseason to present ideas and ways to make not only state better, but how to expand wrestling. My nephews both got 2 seeds at semi state, but if they don't make it to state, at least they are only juniors and have one more year to hope for normalcy. I feel really bad for those seniors out there ranked top 5-10 that are third man out in those semi states with the very top kids in it. For some, it was their last chance to place. Instead of only meeting your regional opponents in the semifinals (or some chance earlier in consilations), they are meeting them two weeks in a row just for a shot to place. Several times recently the same region has put 3 kids in the semifinals. Hoping for normalcy from the KHSAA is a lost cause seeing how they continuously crap on wrestling just to slob all over basketball. There needs to be a wrestling guru on their committee.