I’m looking more at 1/2. The 106 bracket has all region 1 on top and 2 on the bottom. Same kids wrestle each other all over again. 
145- Mason Kellett makes finals and gets 2nd just to have the guy that got 3rd to get the 2nd seed. Kellett was screwed because of a tougher schedule and a couple more losses. 
I’m sure you all see more and more of these too. 

Forcing any coach past #3 to pay is clearly a money grab by those in charge. Which I could almost live if they would have used some semblance of common sense in seeding the Semi-States. It is clear however, that they couldn’t give two craps about the wrestlers, coaches, or fair and equal competition. Money is their only motivation. Highly disappointed with the powers that be.

JT King gets a rerun of regional championship? I'm not sure how this supposed to be semi state, when you start out with your last region match?

2 minutes ago, Punisher 61 said:

JT King gets a rerun of regional championship? I'm not sure how this supposed to be semi state, when you start out with your last region match?

Yup the 145 bracket is messed up. He wrestles the same guy he wrestled in the finals. What a mess. 
Top of It is kinda the same for region 1. 

3/15/2000? First, I wasn't even aware we could enter head to head, second, I think I see a problem there! 

10 hours ago, naplesme said:

Forcing any coach past #3 to pay is clearly a money grab by those in charge. Which I could almost live if they would have used some semblance of common sense in seeding the Semi-States. It is clear however, that they couldn’t give two craps about the wrestlers, coaches, or fair and equal competition. Money is their only motivation. Highly disappointed with the powers that be.

We had to buy coach #3 as well because if you don't have 5 kids you can only get 2 coaches free. It just shows why schools struggle so much to find coaches first the pay is horrible for the hours spent we all know that's not why we do it and so do they. Then they want to charge you for stuff and show more disrespect.

2 minutes ago, panthers said:

We had to buy coach #3 as well because if you don't have 5 kids you can only get 2 coaches free. It just shows why schools struggle so much to find coaches first the pay is horrible for the hours spent we all know that's not why we do it and so do they. Then they want to charge you for stuff and show more disrespect.

Again, I don't think it's a money grab. Remember, we have limited attendance. Every coach, means one less parent/fans. And with only 8 man brackets, and 3 or 4 mats, you won't have situations where you need a ton of coaches to cover multiple wrestlers. Look, I get it, it sucks. But you can't make the argument that it's for the kids, when you'd rather have a bunch of coaches that aren't needed, at the expense of excluding parents/fans etc.

Attendance limitations have been lifted to accommodate 60%.  Why are they just allowing 15%?  

26 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

Attendance limitations have been lifted to accommodate 60%.  Why are they just allowing 15%?  

It's 60 percent IF the total can be accomodated with the appropriate social distancing. 

16 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

It's 60 percent IF the total can be accomodated with the appropriate social distancing. 

They could if they utilized a bigger venue. There were multiple that offered.

5 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

They could if they utilized a bigger venue. There were multiple that offered.

I can't argue with that. I don't know what was offered, available, or the costs associated. Obviously, location was a big issue in the final choice, with GRC being somewhat centrally located. 

1 hour ago, rjs4470 said:

Again, I don't think it's a money grab. Remember, we have limited attendance. Every coach, means one less parent/fans. And with only 8 man brackets, and 3 or 4 mats, you won't have situations where you need a ton of coaches to cover multiple wrestlers. Look, I get it, it sucks. But you can't make the argument that it's for the kids, when you'd rather have a bunch of coaches that aren't needed, at the expense of excluding parents/fans etc.

Is a coach that spends all year working with the team not also a fan? I seen past coaches at last weeks Regionals on the floor with coaches but weren’t coaching or working tables or event. I don’t fault them for being there and I’m glad they were there. They have also put their time in and deserve to be there. We ran 3 mats which is the same format/mat usage as semi state. Still only 2 parents last week at $8 for Saturday. The point is valid what others are saying, $20 per person at a HS is a money grab. No awards for the top 2 in the weight class that advance because “it’s the 1st half of the state tourney”, but the kid that has one loss stays home??! Doesn’t resemble a 16 man tournament being ran in a 2 weekend schedule. That would allow all wrestlers with one loss to keep moving on to eventually get knocked out or hit the medal rounds. Sounds more like a “hold my beer” moment once again. Just an opinion of a coach/fan and Dad of the sport, that’s willing to pay his $20 to coach his son and the other 12 kids we have going to Semi State!!!!

2 minutes ago, gameface said:

Is a coach that spends all year working with the team not also a fan? I seen past coaches at last weeks Regionals on the floor with coaches but weren’t coaching or working tables or event. I don’t fault them for being there and I’m glad they were there. They have also put their time in and deserve to be there. We ran 3 mats which is the same format/mat usage as semi state. Still only 2 parents last week at $8 for Saturday. The point is valid what others are saying, $20 per person at a HS is a money grab. No awards for the top 2 in the weight class that advance because “it’s the 1st half of the state tourney”, but the kid that has one loss stays home??! Doesn’t resemble a 16 man tournament being ran in a 2 weekend schedule. That would allow all wrestlers with one loss to keep moving on to eventually get knocked out or hit the medal rounds. Sounds more like a “hold my beer” moment once again. Just an opinion of a coach/fan and Dad of the sport, that’s willing to pay his $20 to coach his son and the other 12 kids we have going to Semi State!!!!

All good points. My only point is that wrestling is not being singled out. I've been to the state tournament in Football, Volleyball, Baseball, and basketball. All are expensive to attend. Teams that make the final four get no individual awards in any of those sports, only a team trophy. Volleyball is held in a high school gym. Baseball went back to a semi state format 2 years ago. Yes, I will readily admit that basketball gets the best venue, and the most coverage. However, that's true in most states. 

Could the KHSAA do better for wrestling? Absolutely. But you could say the same thing about nearly every sport. We as a group need to continue to provide constructive feedback. Aside from this covid year, I've seen improvements from where we were 10 years ago. 

6 hours ago, rjs4470 said:

All good points. My only point is that wrestling is not being singled out. I've been to the state tournament in Football, Volleyball, Baseball, and basketball. All are expensive to attend. Teams that make the final four get no individual awards in any of those sports, only a team trophy. Volleyball is held in a high school gym. Baseball went back to a semi state format 2 years ago. Yes, I will readily admit that basketball gets the best venue, and the most coverage. However, that's true in most states. 

Could the KHSAA do better for wrestling? Absolutely. But you could say the same thing about nearly every sport. We as a group need to continue to provide constructive feedback. Aside from this covid year, I've seen improvements from where we were 10 years ago. 

Gameface is spot on with his assessment. Absolute money grab by the KHSAA, and I'm not referring to the entry fees paid by coaches. $88 for a wrestler's family to watch one day, in a high school gym, is absurd. Then follow that up with the same or more next week?!! KHSAA is an absolute racket. They preach about cost and travel concerns. Who's cost and travel are they concerned about? Not the wrestling family.  

Wrestling is not like any of the sports you mention. It's specifically named the Kentucky State Wrestling Championships. I.e. individual champions at different weights.

Baseball changed to semi-state for multiple reasons. Scheduling conflicts with Whitaker Bank Park. The coaches association wanted to level the playing field with 3 games instead of 4 so teams would have a pitching format similar to regions. Colleges and the coaches wanted to play more games at college sites for recruiting purposes and exposure.

Constructive feedback is completely ignored time and time again. And as to the improvements from where we were 10 years ago, please enlighten the group as to what improvements and who is directly responsible?

I think the primary complaint regarding the relationship with wrestling and the KHSAA is the lack of input they value from coaches and those of us invested in the sport. I remember the year when the state championships were wrestled on Mat 7. Not the one they pulled to the center and put a spotlight on. Mat 7. They just ran straight through the finals. It was sad. Another year, I nearly sprained my ankle due to a hole under another mat. Every tournament and organization has its soft spots, but that doesn’t mean they have to remain that way. This year was an opportunity for a much needed collaboration between the coaches and the KHSAA. There are rational solutions to every problem, of that I’m certain. There were also 10 months (!!) to come up with a plan(s) and other contingencies. What should have been used to strengthen a working relationship seems to have utterly destroyed it. The lack of communication and the lack of regard for others seems to be the primary issue. COVID did nothing but send things over the edge that were already there. 

22 hours ago, Punisher 61 said:

Were we supposed to have been able to go in as statisticians and enter head to head??

1 hour ago, jnv858 said:

Were we supposed to have been able to go in as statisticians and enter head to head??

I honestly do not understand their seeding process, I just found that info on track. The money, limited brackets , etc are one thing. But seeding has been 1 vs 4, 2 vs 3 , for as long as I remember, for state. Why the change? It has a absolutely nothing to do with Covid! It’s not a hard thing to fix either, why punish these wrestlers, for no reason? 

I can't understand why they just didn't do like they do at state where the Region 1 winner would wrestle the Region 2 4th place finisher, Region 2 2nd would wrestle Region 1 3rd, Region 1 2nd wrest Region 2 3rd, and Region 2 winner wrestle Region 1 4th place finisher. That way your almost ensured to advance the two best wrestlers out of the combined regions in each class. Pretty simple really! I think maybe some of you guys have been over-thinking this all along. No matter what happens, you are sure to leave wrestlers home who would have likely placed at state from most regions in almost all weight classes so the best bet is to have your 2 best go and my way ensures that barring an upset(which would still have the same result)(A deserving wrestler being left at home. The fog of worrying about your true #2 seed has clouded the judgements of these decision makers imo. Trying to rank wrestlers in this format is nonsensical when you can get the best results possible by having each regions placers wrestler the corresponding regions opposite placers. One region winner is placed in the top of the bracket, the other winner at the bottom, same goes for the 2nd placers where it wouldn't be impossible for Region 1 winner to wrestle Region 1 2nd until the finals and so forth.

1 hour ago, otisgcc said:

I can't understand why they just didn't do like they do at state where the Region 1 winner would wrestle the Region 2 4th place finisher, Region 2 2nd would wrestle Region 1 3rd, Region 1 2nd wrest Region 2 3rd, and Region 2 winner wrestle Region 1 4th place finisher. That way your almost ensured to advance the two best wrestlers out of the combined regions in each class. Pretty simple really! I think maybe some of you guys have been over-thinking this all along. No matter what happens, you are sure to leave wrestlers home who would have likely placed at state from most regions in almost all weight classes so the best bet is to have your 2 best go and my way ensures that barring an upset(which would still have the same result)(A deserving wrestler being left at home. The fog of worrying about your true #2 seed has clouded the judgements of these decision makers imo. Trying to rank wrestlers in this format is nonsensical when you can get the best results possible by having each regions placers wrestler the corresponding regions opposite placers. One region winner is placed in the top of the bracket, the other winner at the bottom, same goes for the 2nd placers where it wouldn't be impossible for Region 1 winner to wrestle Region 1 2nd until the finals and so forth.

I know one wrestler who would have forfeited his 3rd place match in region 6 if they did it this way.  Because of horrible seeding criteria he got the 4th seed, when he is by far the 2nd best in the region.  Got the 2 seed in semi state. (The 3 and 1 from the same region are on the same side) How a 28-1 wrestlers looses the 2 seed to an 18-8 wrestler who he never met is beyond me.) 

8 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

I know one wrestler who would have forfeited his 3rd place match in region 6 if they did it this way.  Because of horrible seeding criteria he got the 4th seed, when he is by far the 2nd best in the region.  Got the 2 seed in semi state. (The 3 and 1 from the same region are on the same side) How a 28-1 wrestlers looses the 2 seed to an 18-8 wrestler who he never met is beyond me.) 

That's the other side people are not mentioning, the forfeiting in placement matches at regions in order to line up for a better chance at advancement at semi-state. It's lame but it would happen. The seeding criteria for semi-state is not perfect but it does allow some chance and rewards kids for their overall body of work for the season.

2 hours ago, WrasslinCoach said:

That's the other side people are not mentioning, the forfeiting in placement matches at regions in order to line up for a better chance at advancement at semi-state. It's lame but it would happen. The seeding criteria for semi-state is not perfect but it does allow some chance and rewards kids for their overall body of work for the season.

No it doesn't.  Seeding is for separation. If you use the 1v4, 2v3 model everyone who needs to be separated is.  The KHSAA really jacked this one up. 

12 minutes ago, GooglyMoogly said:

No it doesn't.  Seeding is for separation. If you use the 1v4, 2v3 model everyone who needs to be separated is.  The KHSAA really jacked this one up. 

Listen I totally agree, I am not a fan of seeding it like this especially when criteria is super fuzzy. The way it is done at state tournament with regions randomly drawn in and 1v4 and 2v3 works well. We do get those matches where highly ranked kids meet in the quarters which is a bummer. 

But for example if a kid from region 2 knows stud A from region 1 is gonna be on a certain side of the bracket then they may forfeit to 3/4 to dodge stud A. Especially when you know whose gonna be in the bracket. Takes the random draw out of the equation. It may be rare, but somewhere it will happen.

10 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

I know one wrestler who would have forfeited his 3rd place match in region 6 if they did it this way.  Because of horrible seeding criteria he got the 4th seed, when he is by far the 2nd best in the region.  Got the 2 seed in semi state. (The 3 and 1 from the same region are on the same side) How a 28-1 wrestlers looses the 2 seed to an 18-8 wrestler who he never met is beyond me.) 

The seeding for regionals in that weight class was correct.  That weight had 3 state qualifiers and he didn’t have any head to head this year to look at.  While I agree in the old system the forfeit would be the right call we can’t knock the 18-8 kid for wrestling a very tough schedule.  

Seeds really are subjective, anyway.  In some cases, it's pretty clear who the best wrestlers are in a bracket and for fan's sake, we'd want them to only wrestle when something was on the line (semi's, finals, etc).  But, if the college national tournaments have shown us anything this year, it's that seeds really don't matter. #31 pinning #2 at NCAAs and multiple #20 seeds in the quarters, multiple major upsets in NAIA, etc.  The issue I have with the KHSAA isn't regarding the seeding (though I understand where others are coming from).  It's just not a hill I'm willing to die on.  The issue I have is the arrogant ignorance the KHSAA brings to a sport they know very little about with no motivation to learn.  The structure and senseless logic make for a bummer of an expensive postseason experience for everyone.  

49 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

Seeds really are subjective, anyway.  In some cases, it's pretty clear who the best wrestlers are in a bracket and for fan's sake, we'd want them to only wrestle when something was on the line (semi's, finals, etc).  But, if the college national tournaments have shown us anything this year, it's that seeds really don't matter. #31 pinning #2 at NCAAs and multiple #20 seeds in the quarters, multiple major upsets in NAIA, etc.  The issue I have with the KHSAA isn't regarding the seeding (though I understand where others are coming from).  It's just not a hill I'm willing to die on.  The issue I have is the arrogant ignorance the KHSAA brings to a sport they know very little about with no motivation to learn.  The structure and senseless logic make for a bummer of an expensive postseason experience for everyone.  

The examples you give are anomalies. OF COURSE SEEDS MATTER.  If you blind draw NCAAs you could get Fix and RBY in a quarter. Deiken and Hidlay in a quarter, etc. Upsets are not proof that seeds don't matter.  This year was extremely difficult to seed for several reasons, but saying seeds don't matter is absurd. 

1 hour ago, WrasslinCoach said:

But for example if a kid from region 2 knows stud A from region 1 is gonna be on a certain side of the bracket then they may forfeit to 3/4 to dodge stud A. Especially when you know whose gonna be in the bracket. Takes the random draw out of the equation. It may be rare, but somewhere it will happen.

Your example doesn't work. The KHSAA set up the scenario where kids should forfeit to get a more favorable seed at semi state.  I assume both studs would win their region tournament and be separated.  If the second best kid in semi-state was a region runner-up then using 1&4 2&3 puts him on the opposite side as well.  If the second best kid was 3rd he would also be separated so no forfeiting shenanigans would be necessary using this format.  The ONLY reason to forfeit is if you knew the stud from the other region was upset. 

If you seed the state tournament(I'm in favor of this) then you only seed the 1's, then separate 1&4 2&3.  It is REALLY not that difficult. 

51 minutes ago, GooglyMoogly said:

Upsets are not proof that seeds don't matter.  This year was extremely difficult to seed for several reasons, but saying seeds don't matter is absurd. 

 

Why are they considered “upsets”, then? Seeds matter to the fans. We as fans want to see Fix and RBY in the finals, by example. We as fans want to see who we feel are the best wrestlers wrestling in the significant bouts. Nothing wrong with that perspective. But, I doubt seeds have the same significance to those competing or coaching. If a competitor or coach puts a lot of stock into seeds, I feel like they’re misusing their energy to get prepared for the tournament. In any event, this wasn’t my point regarding the KHSAA. 
 

Based on your last statement, it appears there are a lot of absurd wrestlers wrestling in national and state tournaments across the country this year. Some are actually winning, which is even more “absurd”, I suppose?

On 3/19/2021 at 10:13 AM, Chris Duke said:

The seeding for regionals in that weight class was correct.  That weight had 3 state qualifiers and he didn’t have any head to head this year to look at.  While I agree in the old system the forfeit would be the right call we can’t knock the 18-8 kid for wrestling a very tough schedule.  

No it was not correct there were two common opponents that the 18-8 kid lost to and the 28-1 kid beat.  So schedule does not matter.  All you have to do is avoid the other wrestler and you get the seed. I had no horse in the race except wanting to see the correct seeds.  

This type of shenanigans is the reason I am NOT in favor of seeding the state tourney. 

45 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

No it was not correct there were two common opponents that the 18-8 kid lost to and the 28-1 kid beat.  So schedule does not matter.  All you have to do is avoid the other wrestler and you get the seed. I had no horse in the race except wanting to see the correct seeds.  

This type of shenanigans is the reason I am NOT in favor of seeding the state tourney. 

You just have to correctly value common opponent in the criteria which our region can’t seem to figure out. Been shaking my head at this for years. 

On 3/19/2021 at 11:46 AM, GentleBeard said:

Why are they considered “upsets”, then? Seeds matter to the fans. We as fans want to see Fix and RBY in the finals, by example. We as fans want to see who we feel are the best wrestlers wrestling in the significant bouts. Nothing wrong with that perspective. But, I doubt seeds have the same significance to those competing or coaching. If a competitor or coach puts a lot of stock into seeds, I feel like they’re misusing their energy to get prepared for the tournament. In any event, this wasn’t my point regarding the KHSAA. 
 

Based on your last statement, it appears there are a lot of absurd wrestlers wrestling in national and state tournaments across the country this year. Some are actually winning, which is even more “absurd”, I suppose?

I think you're confusing seeds with rankings bud. 

Much of the complaint about seeding, could have been eliminated by wrestling for true 2nd. One of the best examples is Semi-state 3 152 lb Region 6 runner-up will be at home this weekend, while region 6 3rd place finisher will take home a medal. seeding was based on record, and last years placement I assume. Considering only top 2 advanced, 1 against 4, 2 against 3 would have been a much better format. given the complete lack of parity across the state, and with continuing the random draw match up at state, True 2nd should be added. 

2 hours ago, Tdog'sPap said:

Much of the complaint about seeding, could have been eliminated by wrestling for true 2nd. One of the best examples is Semi-state 3 152 lb Region 6 runner-up will be at home this weekend, while region 6 3rd place finisher will take home a medal. seeding was based on record, and last years placement I assume. Considering only top 2 advanced, 1 against 4, 2 against 3 would have been a much better format. given the complete lack of parity across the state, and with continuing the random draw match up at state, True 2nd should be added. 

I did the research, if a true second was wrestled this the matches in each Semi State.

SS1 would have had 6 matches.  120, 126,132,145,152, and 195

SS2 would have had 5 matches 120,132,182,195,220

SS3 would have had 6 matches 113,126,145,152,170,182

SS4 would have had 3 matches 106,126,182. 

Would have added about 1 hour to the tournament (B/C of 45 minute break)