Coaches meeting notes: 7/25

1) Hall of Fame entries Russ Riegal William Green Che Founder

2) Kywca fall clinic Date: Sept 25 Location: Great Crossing hs

3) nwca ceo leadership academy Date: Sept 26th Location: pending (hopefully Great Crossing)

4) State Duals Date :Jan 29th Location: to be determined, looking at confirmation from several big schools

5) New post season format Region, semi state (8 man), state (16man) We are sending a survey out to coaches to vote on if you want automated seeding, or 1v4 2v3 match ups at semi state and state. We then will take that to khsaa and ask them to go with our recommendation.

6) Region realignment. During board of control meeting they stated they will have a proposal by September and it will go into effect 22-23 season. We are going to work with section leaders to also make a proposal for khssa, and doing a survey to see if coaches want realignment now, or wait a year. If everyone wants it now, we may be able to get khsaa to approve realignment for this season.

7) Girls wrestling Mr. Tackett sounded very positive of girls wrestling. They MUST do triennial survey before they can sanction, that comes out this fall. Superintendent, principals, and athletic directors receive them. They get one vote total. It sounds as if sanctioning will be coming next season.

It was a great meeting with Commissioner Tackett as well as Kywca meeting. I do encourage more to participate though. I sent over 100 emails to every head coach, but we only had 23 on our zoom meeting. To get better, we have to work together and have everyone's imput.

If anyone has questions, you can always reach out to myself, Che Founder, Josh Ashbrook, or Philip Dettwiller.

Thanks,

Scotty Teater

President KYWCA

Will 16 man brackets keep us in a high school gym?  16 man brackets should keep us out of the dirty horse park thank goodness.  

30 minutes ago, Chris Duke said:

Will 16 man brackets keep us in a high school gym?  16 man brackets should keep us out of the dirty horse park thank goodness.  

No more horse park. It will be in a gym for atleast a couple years, and theres a new facility being built close to Lexington that may be able to host once its completed

What about the new weight classes?

22 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

What about the new weight classes?

In April board of control meeting Khsaa approved change that starts 2023-24 season

It is not surprising that I am confused.  Several questions here.

1.  Why are we changing the format that has been in place for a generation now (20 years) * "we" I mean KHSAA

2.  Do we really have options on post season?  * "we" I mean wrestling community coaches parents refs.

3.  Do we really need to try and push another post season (girls) when we can't even get the original post season straight? * "we" I mean everyone. 

I don't know, maybe I'm just to old and beat down.  It has come to the point where I wish that I would have grown up somewhere else. It is hard to cared about wrestling in Ky, because it has become very evident that outside the close knit wrestling community no one else cares in the state.

6 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

It is not surprising that I am confused.  Several questions here.

1.  Why are we changing the format that has been in place for a generation now (20 years) * "we" I mean KHSAA

2.  Do we really have options on post season?  * "we" I mean wrestling community coaches parents refs.

3.  Do we really need to try and push another post season (girls) when we can't even get the original post season straight? * "we" I mean everyone. 

I don't know, maybe I'm just to old and beat down.  It has come to the point where I wish that I would have grown up somewhere else. It is hard to cared about wrestling in Ky, because it has become very evident that outside the close knit wrestling community no one else cares in the state.

1. The change is because KHSAA cannot afford the venues right now and there is a ton of board pressure to keep the format with SS/Finals. I would also venture to say that other sports will be seeing changes as well.  (I don't agree with the decision, but I see a bigger picture for growth. See #3) I will tell you this, the state to the south has completely changed their format to the same as we are doing too. 

2. KHSAA is giving US the opportunity to voice the format we want with semi-state/state. It was just released yesterday. Stuff will come out.

3. Girls wrestling IS the future of the sport. If you and others do not see that than you have to stop being ignorant and naïve to think it is a fade and it will go away. It is NOT going to go down. Once it is approved a lot of teams will add it. I know of 3 teams in our area right now that are just awaiting the green light from KHSAA.  I can speak for a few teams who were on life support through my years in KY that added girls and see their numbers explode due to adding it.

In my years of being in KY, I can honestly say I feel khsaa is FINALLY giving us a chance to hear our voice in a united front. Which the association is actually trying to do. Give it a chance! 

Boys don’t have to suffer for girls to succeed and for growth to occur. I agree we have a lot of potential with girls in Ky. And not just numbers; we have some really talented girls around the state. But it won’t be good for girls to bury boys programs. 

3 hours ago, halfhalfhalf said:

3. Girls wrestling IS the future of the sport. If you and others do not see that than you have to stop being ignorant and naïve to think it is a fade and it will go away. It is NOT going to go down. Once it is approved a lot of teams will add it. I know of 3 teams in our area right now that are just awaiting the green light from KHSAA.  I can speak for a few teams who were on life support through my years in KY that added girls and see their numbers explode due to adding it.

I'm not sure what you mean by IS the future of the sport.  If you are saying that girls wrestling is going to take over boys wrestling then that is a problem. 

Not saying it is a fad or that it is going away but it is a separate entity, much the same as GBB is to BBB and softball is to baseball.  If it is handled in that way I definitely do not have a problem.  But if the boys have to sacrifice then I do have a problem.  I don't want to see programs already in existence get lost because of another sport, weather it be girls wrestling or boys basketball or whatever.  Wrestling has taken hits for a long time because of other sports.  I hope I am wrong,  Ky wrestling in and of itself is not strong enough to withstand another hit.  Ky wrestling is just now coming into its own, In the 40 years that I have been involved Ky wrestling has made great leaps and I don't want to see it fail now. 

32 minutes ago, Ranger123 said:

Boys don’t have to suffer for girls to succeed and for growth to occur. I agree we have a lot of potential with girls in Ky. And not just numbers; we have some really talented girls around the state. But it won’t be good for girls to bury boys programs. 

Totally agree with you on talent. I'm not saying that guys have to suffer and vice versa.  Simple fact I want to be clear is it's about growing the sport as a whole.  One will grow the other

14 hours ago, halfhalfhalf said:

1. The change is because KHSAA cannot afford the venues right now and there is a ton of board pressure to keep the format with SS/Finals. I would also venture to say that other sports will be seeing changes as well.  (I don't agree with the decision, but I see a bigger picture for growth. See #3) I will tell you this, the state to the south has completely changed their format to the same as we are doing too. 

2. KHSAA is giving US the opportunity to voice the format we want with semi-state/state. It was just released yesterday. Stuff will come out.

3. Girls wrestling IS the future of the sport. If you and others do not see that than you have to stop being ignorant and naïve to think it is a fade and it will go away. It is NOT going to go down. Once it is approved a lot of teams will add it. I know of 3 teams in our area right now that are just awaiting the green light from KHSAA.  I can speak for a few teams who were on life support through my years in KY that added girls and see their numbers explode due to adding it.

In my years of being in KY, I can honestly say I feel khsaa is FINALLY giving us a chance to hear our voice in a united front. Which the association is actually trying to do. Give it a chance! 

 

1. Cannot afford the venues right now. Money is a problem not just for the KHSAA, but they have found a way to use Rupp Arena(16 teams) and Kroger Field(12 teams) and Whitaker Bank(8 teams). GRC Gym(36 teams). Disparity is the problem. Those sports aren't going backwards anytime soon. Wrestling went from Horse Park 2020(32 man) back to Atherton 1988(8man) to Atherton 1994(16 man). I think a 3 year independent review of the budget for wrestling would be interesting to see. I don't know what the $$ goal is. How much does wrestling have to bring in to get the KHSAA, boards, and shot callers to get behind the sport? 

2. Giving the opportunity to voice the format we want from the options handed down from KHSAA is not really what I would call "working with the association". I.e. boss gives you the option of a spoon, a hand spade, or a short handle shovel and says dig a ditch for a drain tile, while he sits on a backhoe that he won't use because fuel is too expensive and hurts the bottom line.  

3. Bravo to Girls Wrestling. The sport is here, it's no longer coming. It is here and should be recognized. It should be used to prop up both male and female wrestling. We, the old timers and the wet behind the ears need to grow the sport and this is just another avenue. 

The situation imho is that the problems are the same every year, but there are zero changes made to make improvements. If you have a girls and boys sport that runs parallel and intersects more than a handful of times during the season, why not combine the 2 and have "The State Tournament" that every enthusiast wants?

Do all the things that wrestlers are taught to do. Championships don't happen overnight. Set goals. Work hard everyday. Outwork your opponent. Be Better. 

I am not a fan of the KHSAA and the attention they give to wrestling, but I do understand the change.  The format for the post season is basically the old format of district, region, state.  The problem is the desire of the KHSAA to wait another year to realign the regions, when it was supposed to have been done before last year.  With their finances low,  I understand not being able to get facilities.  There aren't a lot that suit the size of our sport right now.  It's a problem we have to live with,  but the KHSAA makes things more complicated than they should be because we are not a priority.    Semi-state does not take care of all of the problems. The regions need to be split back into districts, and the post season needs to be 4 weeks long: districts, regions, semi-state, state.  16 districts, top 4 advance to regions, 8 regions (8 man bracket) top 4 advance to semi-state, 2 semi states (16 man bracket) top 8 advance to state to make a 16 man bracket.

As far as girls wrestling goes, it is absolutely the future of our sport.  The sanctioning of girls wrestling by the KHSAA will grow boys wrestling.  Schools are more likely to add wrestling because it is sanctioned for both boys and girls.  Teams that have never had wrestling before will start teams and our numbers will multiply.  Also, a combined boys and girls state tournament would be large enough to move into better, bigger venues.   

Not sure I like the 2 semi state scenario?  Having 8 qualify from 2 semi states is really no different than having 4 semi states.  It will also reduce travel.  Think when the far west teams (Pad. Till) have to travel to Lou and vice versa Same for Far Northern Ky schools traveling to far south or East and vice versa.  (Johnson Central, Wayne Co) They will require overnight stays. 

I truly believe that the almost the same individuals will qualify for a 16 man tourney either way.  As long as it is not only 2 qualifying from Each Semi State. 

As I mentioned on another post. 

Only 9 times since 1980 have 4 placed from the same region.

*Prior to 2000 two districts (todays region) combined for a region and a 16 man state tourney. 

1982 NK placed 4 at 132--------- 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th

1984 NK placed 4 at 112---------1st, 3rd, 4th, 6th

1984 NK placed 4 at 119---------3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th

1989 JC placed 4 at 103-------- 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th

1996 Lex placed 4 at 140------- 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th

2012 NK placed 4 at 120--------1st, 3rd, 4th, 6th

2114 NK placed 4 at 145-------- 2nd, 6th, 7th, 8th

2017 NK placed 4 at 126-------- 1st, 4th, 7th, 8th

2020 WK placed 4 at 113------- 1st, 2nd, 6th, 7th

8 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

Not sure I like the 2 semi state scenario?  Having 8 qualify from 2 semi states is really no different than having 4 semi states.  It will also reduce travel.  Think when the far west teams (Pad. Till) have to travel to Lou and vice versa Same for Far Northern Ky schools traveling to far south or East and vice versa.  (Johnson Central, Wayne Co) They will require overnight stays. 

I truly believe that the almost the same individuals will qualify for a 16 man tourney either way.  As long as it is not only 2 qualifying from Each Semi State. 

The current regional pairings already require overnight stays for most schools, the majority of Region 2 schools traveling to the nearest Region 1 school (Union) is still about 2.5-3 hours. 

Having 2 semi states in a central Location... lets say Owensboro and Lexington cuts down on alot of logistical issues for KHSAA and teams out on the far reaches of the state.

The key is that it needs to be in a central location, and for teams traveling from Region 1 and Region 8 it's gonna be inconvenient wherever you hold it.

If it is in a constant central location that solves travel but I'm not sure what else it solves.  To me having 4 semi states allows for more schools to be able to hold the event, with little to no difference in the outcome of who qualifies for the final round of 16, and only every other year would there be a travel problem if it is rotated for the far regions. 

Maybe I am missing something else and don't have all the information. 

Goo, focus on the realignment situation. You have a good historical perspective and have looked at a lot of geographical issues with post season sites. Put together the perfect region alignment for us. 

I am highly in favor of combining four regions to make two semi states if having a semi state is the route decided to go. Prefer the 32 man brackets, but semistates of two regions gives those louisville schools chances to place when other kids are left out. If there are two semi states, there will be plenty of regions that send all four kids through to the final round in certain weight classes by placing top 8 at semi state, and some regions maybe not send a single kid through in certain weight classes.

Competition aside, realignment needs to happen this year. I am not knocking any JCPS/Louisville area school but the sheer number of kids participating has been on a decline for many years.

Since the last realignment the following Jefferson County Schools have folded or haven't fielded teams beyond a handful of wrestlers in recent years: Holy Cross, Iriqouis, PRP, Southern, Atherton, Manual, Eastern, Jeffersontown, Kentucky School for the Blind, Seneca, Shawnee, Western.

Jefferson County should combine to make 1 region and create 2 regions from the Outside Louisville, Owensboro, Bowling Green, Elizabethtown, Bardstown area schools.

8 hours ago, Ranger123 said:

Goo, focus on the realignment situation. You have a good historical perspective and have looked at a lot of geographical issues with post season sites. Put together the perfect region alignment for us. 

I already have and sent it to Scotty Teeter. I looked at geography and number of participants for the last 3 years. I plotted all the schools on a map to help with visuals. 

Here is what I came up with.  Not saying its perfect but a start. 

I used the participation from 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021. Came up with an average number per team in the 4 years then set up regions trying my best to keep all regions equal in number of teams and number of average participants. 

Regions Alignment 2022.xlsx

Great work GOO! Just 2 cents worth. Couple of suggestions.

Trinity Whitesville is on an island if you keep them in region 2. They are short drive from the owensboro schools, probably better suited travel to region 1. 

Taylor Co and Green Co are closer to Region 2. 45 minutes or less to all the hardin county schools and an hour to bowling green. Plus add to the number of participants.  If you move them to region 2 from region 6, I'd replace them with the jessamines from region 7. numbers will equal out and drive time for jessamine is similar. Then replace the jessamines in region 7 with Woodford from region 4 to replace those participants.   

2 hours ago, BigBossMan said:

Great work GOO! Just 2 cents worth. Couple of suggestions.

Trinity Whitesville is on an island if you keep them in region 2. They are short drive from the owensboro schools, probably better suited travel to region 1. 

Taylor Co and Green Co are closer to Region 2. 45 minutes or less to all the hardin county schools and an hour to bowling green. Plus add to the number of participants.  If you move them to region 2 from region 6, I'd replace them with the jessamines from region 7. numbers will equal out and drive time for jessamine is similar. Then replace the jessamines in region 7 with Woodford from region 4 to replace those participants.   

 

 

yeah I messed with all those teams moving them around, I finally just put them in a region and decided someone else can work out the nitty gritty. 

Figured I will set the foundation someone else can pick out the curtains. LOL

I’m sure there can be a lot of arguments made for slight adjustments. Typical local travel patterns, rivalries or regional affiliation with other sports, team/competitor balance, opportunities for expected growth, etc. I also wonder if girls alignment plays a role or consideration. 

I did not use competitive balance in my decisions.  I tried to use only balancing region by number of team (tried to keep it between 13-15) and number of competitors per region using past 4 years.  I also put in the teams that are suppose to be added next year.  I basically believed that this could be used as a template to be tweeked by other people in the know. 

I used geography also looking at average miles to others in the region. The only bias I used was trying to keep districts with more than one team in one region (IE JCPS Lou. Hardin Co)

10 hours ago, BigBossMan said:

 

Trinity Whitesville is on an island if you keep them in region 2. They are short drive from the owensboro schools, probably better suited travel to region 1

I struggled with Trinity (Whit) and Ohio Co. If I moved one then I would have to move the other. (They are very near each other).  I was trying to reduce the number of teams in Region 1. 

I think if I moved Trinity (Whit) then I would just move Spencer Co. into Region 2.