Do we have dates yet for middle school regions and states?

If not,  do we expect to go back to the old days of early February,  or keep it later like last year? 

Ive heard second weekend in March for State

2 hours ago, BrisFan said:

Ive heard second weekend in March for State

That's surprising,  so it's after high school states now?  That's a long season since I believe middle school typically starts up before high school. 

Originally it was discussed Sunday Feb. 27th for regions (would have to be Sunday due to HS conflicts) and the weekend of March 5-6 for state but those aren’t set in stone due to a venue not be reserved yet. It will depend on availability of a venue. It could get pushed back before HS regions/semi/state (early Feb). 

 I was told Regionals are February 27th (Sunday),   And Middle school state will be held Saturday March 5th. 

March 5th - Region

March 12th - State

It was voted on, and passed, during the last coaches meeting.

Well last word I got was also Feb 27th and March 5th hopefully someone will get it all straight and let everyone know soon so we can make plans.  As for long season I agree we should start middle school first of Oct and end Thanksgiving weekend. That way kids that want to go straight into HS season can with no missed practice for other events or overlap. Then ones that one extra time on mat can find plenty of youth matches after Thanksgiving as well. No overlap for any of them. Just a thought to help out smaller programs that have to do all teams youth thru high school and not allowed to have other coaches. No other Middle School Sport goes on before the high school sport and ends after it just saying.

10 minutes ago, panthers said:

As for long season I agree we should start middle school first of Oct and end Thanksgiving weekend. 

So you want to start when kids are playing fall sports and no other states around us are competing and end at Thanksgiving essentially cutting the season in half? Great idea. LOL

With the dates set(hopefully for at least a few years) starting middle school events after Thanksgiving wouldn't be a bad idea though.  Or just give kids more weekends off during the season.  

Fall middle school sports end first Oct so it wont over lap. As for other states doesn't matter what they do some don't have it till Spring and that's ok too. Its not a fight just a suggestion. You will still have youth going on it Nov, Dec, Jan and etc... for anyone just said it wont interfere with anything high school is doing.

Middle School region is March 5th and Middle School state is March 12th.

46 minutes ago, panthers said:

Fall middle school sports end first Oct so it wont over lap. As for other states doesn't matter what they do some don't have it till Spring and that's ok too. Its not a fight just a suggestion. You will still have youth going on it Nov, Dec, Jan and etc... for anyone just said it wont interfere with anything high school is doing.

That is an interesting idea.  Not sure when fall middle school sports end.  If you can coincide the ending of middle school fall sports with the beginning of middle school wrestling that could work.  Those that are on the boarder of other states can still compete in those events it would just be after the Ky middle school post season.  

I can see this helping.  It would allow the middle school coaches to practice with the high school team with the middle school kids who still want to compete.  It also allows the middle school coach to help those new freshman now with the high school team.

I really se no negative to this, only positives. 8th grade kids can get an early taste of high school practice and go to high school events to either watch or participate.  

Panther I think you should work more closely with the middle school brass.  See it this is a possibility.  I really like this idea if it can work. 

Starting middle school before thanksgiving and ending in the middle of March is an extremely long and expensive season for middle school teams. 

17 hours ago, panthers said:

Fall middle school sports end first Oct so it wont over lap. As for other states doesn't matter what they do some don't have it till Spring and that's ok too. Its not a fight just a suggestion. You will still have youth going on it Nov, Dec, Jan and etc... for anyone just said it wont interfere with anything high school is doing.

Maybe where you are at, but our middle school football teams are still playing.  

20 minutes ago, GooglyMoogly said:

Maybe where you are at, but our middle school football teams are still playing.  

I agree some middle school teams still are playing in the state tourney that's not a part of the middle school season but still is a great thing for those programs. But dont we have the same issue with High School wrestlers still playing football in Oct and Nov when we are having High school practices. The Middle school State tourney finals I believe is Oct 16th and although this is late it still isn't that many kids it would affect. Nothing is a perfect plan just throwing this out to give a different thought for all to look at.

16 minutes ago, panthers said:

I agree some middle school teams still are playing in the state tourney that's not a part of the middle school season but still is a great thing for those programs. But dont we have the same issue with High School wrestlers still playing football in Oct and Nov when we are having High school practices. The Middle school State tourney finals I believe is Oct 16th and although this is late it still isn't that many kids it would affect. Nothing is a perfect plan just throwing this out to give a different thought for all to look at.

The Middle School Football championship game is the second weekend in November.  The real solution would be to wait until December to start competing.  States with March Championships already do that and I imagine we will follow suit with our middle school schedule as well. 

15 minutes ago, GooglyMoogly said:

The Middle School Football championship game is the second weekend in November.  The real solution would be to wait until December to start competing.  States with March Championships already do that and I imagine we will follow suit with our middle school schedule as well. 

I didn't realize  it went on that long but again its only a few teams it affects not all since it is a pay to play tourney. But regardless I know it is very important to those who do play. Either way its just an ideal to separate the high school and middle season. Which moving back to December to March wouldn't do but is better than what we have now. If not earlier I would be more in favor of a spring middle school season. Yes its different than some states but other states have much more support to grow the sport with more coaches to assist in the different level teams. Also I do believe there is a state or two that already has moved it to the spring. I could be wrong but heard talk of it.

I would think that having states and regionals that late would cause a conflict in having some of those middle schoolers that compete in high school the day before for states.

45 minutes ago, wrestling78 said:

I would think that having states and regionals that late would cause a conflict in having some of those middle schoolers that compete in high school the day before for states.

It absolutely does cause a conflict.  I've got multiple 8th graders that have worked for years for this opportunity to get on the podium in their last year of middle school, and now they risk limping into the season finale because they're also important point scorers for the high school team.  

I know it's already been voted on, but I'll just voice my opinion and say that it's a terrible idea to have middle school playoffs after high school.  We're looking at a long and grueling 5 month middle school season (mid-October to mid-March). 

I wasn't at the meeting where this was discussed.  Can someone explain why we've moved it to March? What's the reason to move middle school states back from the pre-COVID days?  What are we gaining, besides burnout and injuries? 

32 minutes ago, gator1 said:

It absolutely does cause a conflict.  I've got multiple 8th graders that have worked for years for this opportunity to get on the podium in their last year of middle school, and now they risk limping into the season finale because they're also important point scorers for the high school team.  

I know it's already been voted on, but I'll just voice my opinion and say that it's a terrible idea to have middle school playoffs after high school.  We're looking at a long and grueling 5 month middle school season (mid-October to mid-March). 

I wasn't at the meeting where this was discussed.  Can someone explain why we've moved it to March? What's the reason to move middle school states back from the pre-COVID days?  What are we gaining, besides burnout and injuries? 

Opinion noted. Try being an optimist.

To answer your question: I think logistics was an important factor.

21 hours ago, gator1 said:

It absolutely does cause a conflict.  I've got multiple 8th graders that have worked for years for this opportunity to get on the podium in their last year of middle school, and now they risk limping into the season finale because they're also important point scorers for the high school team.  

I know it's already been voted on, but I'll just voice my opinion and say that it's a terrible idea to have middle school playoffs after high school.  We're looking at a long and grueling 5 month middle school season (mid-October to mid-March). 

I wasn't at the meeting where this was discussed.  Can someone explain why we've moved it to March? What's the reason to move middle school states back from the pre-COVID days?  What are we gaining, besides burnout and injuries? 

As a coach who does youth through high school I voted for the move to March when it was first approved 3 years ago.  It blows my mind how most programs don't offer any offseason opportunities to your wrestlers then some come on here and argue for a 6-8 week season.  I want kids on the mat as much as I can get them.  We are surrounded on all sides by states better than us. A major reason is because they just wrestle more and we want to find ways to shorten things up.  Make it easier on coaches.  

I am not sure why they will be limping into the 'playoffs'?  If your 8th graders are good enough to wrestle enough matches during high school post season to get banged up I am sure they will be fine at middle school region/state.  If not they probably don't make it out of the region tournament and have a couple weekends off before they have to compete again.  YOU DON"T HAVE TO START THE WEEK AFTER FALL BREAK! KY is unique in that we are allowed to practice for 6 weeks before competing. I know IL(high school) gets 2 weeks and they are rolling. 

This move was first voted on and approved 3 years ago.  Venue issues are why we continued to have State the first weekend in February.  We voted again this year and it was approved again.  Less than 30 coaches were in the meeting and it seems those who are most involved want a longer season.  Weird... 

34 minutes ago, GooglyMoogly said:

As a coach who does youth through high school I voted for the move to March when it was first approved 3 years ago.  It blows my mind how most programs don't offer any offseason opportunities to your wrestlers then some come on here and argue for a 6-8 week season.  I want kids on the mat as much as I can get them.  We are surrounded on all sides by states better than us. A major reason is because they just wrestle more and we want to find ways to shorten things up.  Make it easier on coaches.  

I am not sure why they will be limping into the 'playoffs'?  If your 8th graders are good enough to wrestle enough matches during high school post season to get banged up I am sure they will be fine at middle school region/state.  If not they probably don't make it out of the region tournament and have a couple weekends off before they have to compete again.  YOU DON"T HAVE TO START THE WEEK AFTER FALL BREAK! KY is unique in that we are allowed to practice for 6 weeks before competing. I know IL(high school) gets 2 weeks and they are rolling. 

This move was first voted on and approved 3 years ago.  Venue issues are why we continued to have State the first weekend in February.  We voted again this year and it was approved again.  Less than 30 coaches were in the meeting and it seems those who are most involved want a longer season.  Weird... 

The problem with the longer season is for smaller schools/programs that are sharing athletes. Even though I come from a program who's had some consistent mid level success, we've had very few wrestling only kids. Almost every kid, even the good ones, have played another sport (as well as coaches), and often wrestling has been their past time rather than their main sport. These are the kids that we will lose because of a longer season. I know that many of our kids will have moved on to spring sports, and the one's that stay won't have much left in the tank or great practice opportunities to stay sharp, as our teams (as well as many others) depend on our kids working out with the high school guys in the weeks prior to state and region. With the high school kids being gone, those opportunities will be gone as well.

1 minute ago, rjs4470 said:

The problem with the longer season is for smaller schools/programs that are sharing athletes. Even though I come from a program who's had some consistent mid level success, we've had very few wrestling only kids. Almost every kid, even the good ones, have played another sport, and often wrestling has been their past time rather than their main sport. These are the kids that we will lose because of a longer season. I know that many of our kids will have moved on to spring sports, and the one's that stay won't have much left in the tank or great practice opportunities to stay sharp, as our teams (as well as many others) depend on our kids working out with the high school guys in the weeks prior to state and region. With the high school kids being gone, those opportunities will be gone as well.

Small school here as well.  Nearly all of our wrestlers play multiple sports so I am not sure why your kids will have moved on to spring sports. Ours don't until they are done.  Our kids that play fball don't quit when we start wrestling practices.  Why would it be different for spring sports? 

Again, why won't they have much left in the tank?  If an early February Championship is already maxing your kids out maybe you need to change a few things in your program.  

Instead of being a pessimistic state full of excuses, it would be nice to have more optimism and find solutions.

So, given the situation we are in, and knowing no one can change it, what are you going to do? (Same question I asked myself last year during a pandemic)

57 minutes ago, GooglyMoogly said:

As a coach who does youth through high school I voted for the move to March when it was first approved 3 years ago.  It blows my mind how most programs don't offer any offseason opportunities to your wrestlers then some come on here and argue for a 6-8 week season.  I want kids on the mat as much as I can get them.  We are surrounded on all sides by states better than us. A major reason is because they just wrestle more and we want to find ways to shorten things up.  Make it easier on coaches.  

I am not sure why they will be limping into the 'playoffs'?  If your 8th graders are good enough to wrestle enough matches during high school post season to get banged up I am sure they will be fine at middle school region/state.  If not they probably don't make it out of the region tournament and have a couple weekends off before they have to compete again.  YOU DON"T HAVE TO START THE WEEK AFTER FALL BREAK! KY is unique in that we are allowed to practice for 6 weeks before competing. I know IL(high school) gets 2 weeks and they are rolling. 

This move was first voted on and approved 3 years ago.  Venue issues are why we continued to have State the first weekend in February.  We voted again this year and it was approved again.  Less than 30 coaches were in the meeting and it seems those who are most involved want a longer season.  Weird... 

My reasoning for shorting the season is similar to RJS above but with a few differences. First off we are trying to build the sport in our community and it just isn't popular.  When it goes on forever and interrupts other sports or activities some of the newer kids although they may love it parents don't so we lose them. I am all in favor of any kid that wants more mat time to stay with the club since we have to be members anyways to do middle school and wrestle as long a season as they can and want in youth tourneys everywhere they can. Just the so called middle school season to be shorter. As for March ending I like it better than first of Feb because I don't have enough coaches to go to middle school state, girls state and high school event all on same weekend. As for spring and summer i want my kids as many as will or can to train off-season camps and tourneys. I just don't have many that will as a matter a fact I really wish we could get KHSAA to let us have Freestyle and Greco Spring Sport season so the state can improve overall as well. Maybe then I could get more kids to stay and do tourneys.

2 minutes ago, panthers said:

I just don't have many that will as a matter a fact I really wish we could get KHSAA to let us have Freestyle and Greco Spring Sport season so the state can improve overall as well. Maybe then I could get more kids to stay and do tourneys.

Why does the KHSAA have to approve a spring FS&GR season for you to get kids to stay and wrestle? 

10 minutes ago, GooglyMoogly said:

Why does the KHSAA have to approve a spring FS&GR season for you to get kids to stay and wrestle? 

So that it is a school sponsored event.  Then the school can hold practice, use buses and uniforms and pay for tournaments.  

1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:

So that it is a school sponsored event.  Then the school can hold practice, use buses and uniforms and pay for tournaments.  

Correct and parents know its just not another travel baseball type thing in our area

it's just a matter of perspective. 

With programs that have good support from the school and community (parents)  This type of stuff is not a big deal.  

With programs that do not have good support from either the school or community (parents).  Or programs trying to built, this type of stuff is a huge deal. 

I've been on both sides of this.  When you have good support from the community its easy to promote fall practices and tournaments. When your trying to build a program this is like climbing Mt. Everest without the community support. 

That is why I liked the idea.  The official season can be complete, but those that want to continue can still hold practice and compete.  It's a win/win situation.  Those building programs can still build and have more practice and established programs can continue on as normal under the high school umbrella. 

3 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

it's just a matter of perspective. 

With programs that have good support from the school and community (parents)  This type of stuff is not a big deal.  

With programs that do not have good support from either the school or community (parents).  Or programs trying to built, this type of stuff is a huge deal. 

I've been on both sides of this.  When you have good support from the community its easy to promote fall practices and tournaments. When your trying to build a program this is like climbing Mt. Everest without the community support. 

That is why I liked the idea.  The official season can be complete, but those that want to continue can still hold practice and compete.  It's a win/win situation.  Those building programs can still build and have more practice and established programs can continue on as normal under the high school umbrella. 

Yes this has been my point all a long. Wasn't ever meant to ruffle any feathers just a different take on a situation from a different view.

Are there any high school athletic associations that have sanctioned/sponsored FS/GR?  I feel like Kentucky might be the first to do that, if it's even possible.

4 hours ago, GooglyMoogly said:

Small school here as well.  Nearly all of our wrestlers play multiple sports so I am not sure why your kids will have moved on to spring sports. Ours don't until they are done.  Our kids that play fball don't quit when we start wrestling practices.  Why would it be different for spring sports? 

Again, why won't they have much left in the tank?  If an early February Championship is already maxing your kids out maybe you need to change a few things in your program.  

They will move on maybe because wrestling is not their primary sport. Or more likely and what I fear the most, is they may choose not to wrestle at all. It is a continual battle to attract kids to the sport, especially in an area where basketball is already big, and baseball is nearly as big. One of the selling points to get the spring sport kids is that the season ends early and you won't miss any time.Again, I have zero concerns about the few die hard wrestlers our program has. The ones that go year round will love the longer season. The problem we are having as a whole is it seems like much of what we doing in an effort to be more "competitive" as a state, pushes these borderline kids who don't have higher level aspirations in wrestling, out of the sport and thus is hurting us growth wise. 

My other point is that due to numbers many schools have, the middle school gets much of their work in with the high school. With the high school shutting down in February, that will lessen the quality of work the middle school kids will get in practice in the weeks leading up to region and state. And with limited middle school events, lengthening a season that is already thin makes it even harder to develop kids. Not everyone goes to every open mat, private training session, or out of state tournament available. Again, it goes back to pushing the average kid out of the sport.

I know, I know, I need to shut up and build the program. 

1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:

it's just a matter of perspective. 

With programs that have good support from the school and community (parents)  This type of stuff is not a big deal.  

With programs that do not have good support from either the school or community (parents).  Or programs trying to built, this type of stuff is a huge deal. 

I've been on both sides of this.  When you have good support from the community its easy to promote fall practices and tournaments. When your trying to build a program this is like climbing Mt. Everest without the community support. 

That is why I liked the idea.  The official season can be complete, but those that want to continue can still hold practice and compete.  It's a win/win situation.  Those building programs can still build and have more practice and established programs can continue on as normal under the high school umbrella. 

I've been on both sides and back again. I'm I can tell you it's much harder now to build than it was 10 years ago when I built the first time. I feel like we are sacrificing growth in effort to be more competitive with neighboring states. IMHO, We will never be as competitive as we want to be, without first achieving consistent growth. 

I don’t log in much anymore to post but this topic hits me very close. Feel free to disagree with me...won’t hurt my feelings and I probably won’t login to reply or post again for a while regardless. 

I remember when the middle school STATE CHAMPIONSHIPS were an open tournament held at Campbell County High School. We have come a LOOOOONG way since then in this state, but I would like to ask everyone to evaluate a few things in regards to all of this. 

1. We are comparing ourselves to the states around us with pretty good wrestling...but let me ask why would we want to emulate most of them? Consider:

   1. ILLINOIS: pretty sure they are AAU sanctioned/have their own athletic association for elementary/middle schools. I pulled up their calendar for THIS season, and all pre-season paperwork has to be in by November 1. Practice cannot begin until November 29, regular season begins December 6, Regionals are Feb. 26, Sectionals March 5, State March 11. The latest they will schedule state finals is April 2 this year (I’m assuming COVID or snow related). 

   2. INDIANA: I know for a fact because my brother has coached and taught up there in the Indianapolis area since 2016 they have ZERO organization state wide. His conference starts practice in December, wrestles duals and tris in January and February with a conference tournament the first weekend in March. The conference to the west of them? They only wrestle in January (practice December). He came down here last year around Christmas and was telling me he wished their coaches would organize state wide. It’s more of a localized thing in Indiana from what he says, with each conference doing their own thing. His conference doesn’t even have to use certified officials!!! 

   3. OHIO: part of the STATE HIGH SCHOOL association which sets their season limits and post season...what I know I would like us to get to but others I’m sure don’t...which is ok!

   4. TENNESSEE: I taught and officiated down there in the Nashville/Murfreesboro area for a year...and it is by far a cluster. One conference I worked with literally practices for a week then wrestles duals for 2 weeks...a 3 week season all completed by the end of October. Another conference practices at the start of November, and wrestles the entire regular season in December...1 tournament after Christmas break. Others wrestle more of a true regular season (start in November with practice and season starts on the first day of December), but they are all finished with their conference tournament at the end of January/start of February. There are MAYBE 3 weekend tournaments for middle schools in Tennessee that I was aware of (and realize the officials association I was a part of serviced from the KY state line all the way down to the AL state line...biggest association in the state) all season long up until their “State” Tournament (which is an OPEN tournament). Their AAU state tournament is scheduled for March 5 with their State Duels being the next day this year. 

2. Our middle school regular season this year is literally 4 and a half months long this year if we hold states in March (Nov. 6-March 12)...for reference the high school season is 3 and a week (Nov. 24-Feb. 26). Both start practices officially October 15 (tomorrow). When I coached last year and the year before, I literally had parents tell me when they saw how long the season was they couldn’t commit to that type of time with a middle school athlete. What’s the solution? With the nationwide shortage of officials right now on top of this I’m not sure!! But it’s NOT extending the season past high school season in my mind. 

I’m not trying to call out anyone by any means and if you feel I am I apologize!!! I just wanted to throw some facts out there for everyone to consider. Is the answer to all of this asking to be pulled under the KHSAA banner like Ohio? Is it emulating Illinois and starting a middle school association as a separate entity for sports as a whole? Is it going to “pockets” like Indiana and Tennessee (my brother’s team in Indiana had 60 kids last year...for reference he teaches in a school district 5-square miles in size with no bus system and the middle school is literally the smallest in the conference size wise...I think they teach roughly 450 students grades 6-8) to grow the sport and then revisit coming together as a whole? Pros and cons to all. Like someone earlier said...we need to be finding solutions to these issues right now because if not...we are going to have bigger fish to fry soon. 

20 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

I've been on both sides and back again. I'm I can tell you it's much harder now to build than it was 10 years ago when I built the first time. I feel like we are sacrificing growth in effort to be more competitive with neighboring states. IMHO, We will never be as competitive as we want to be, without first achieving consistent growth. 

That's exactly right.  If the goal is really to improve wrestling in KY, then we first need to build a stronger foundation by increasing the number of participants. Having a longer regular season does the opposite.  New kids trying out the sport for the first time don't want a 4.5 month season, nor do parents, nor do spring sport participants.  If wrestling is their primary sport, then GREAT, no problem.  But requiring a 4.5 month commitment as the baseline for regular season is the wrong answer to growing the sport.  Making the season compact, competitive and fun is the best way to grow participation and grow the sport.  

That doesn't mean we can't still have competition year round for the hardcore members of the community.  If you want a longer season, support off-season tournaments!  I remember when we had greco and freestyle events.  I was there with my team at the Woodford FS/Greco event in 2019, as well as the FS/Greco state championships.  We trained for several other events, but those were cancelled because of the poor participation.  That was 2 years ago, and as far as I know we haven't had any freestyle events since.  2020 was COVID, but that doesn't explain 2021.  More off season tournaments have been planned and cancelled just in the past few months because of low participation.

Instead, our team spent the entire spring/summer/fall travelling out of state.  That's a tough way to grow the sport too.  I love the competition and I love the sport.  But even for a hardcore participant like me, it's rough driving long distances and getting hotels in Ohio, Tennessee, Virginia, and Indiana just for a couple of matches per kid. 

Gentlebeard suggested that we "find solutions." I think the best solution is clear -

1. A shorter regular season like pre-COVID days (example: Mid October to Early February for 3.5+ months total) to build higher participation across the state

2. A much stronger off-season schedule for the more hardcore kids, coaches, and programs.  Freestyle, folkstyle, greco, whatever.  

This would meet the needs of both groups, in my opinion.

I get the feeling some assume mandatory practices MUST begin tomorrow and they MUST have tournaments every weekend from November 6th until March 5th/12th. If this is how you run your program, I’m certain there will be burnout.
 

SOME kids might miss preseason for spring sports, but the likely trade off is that they’ll be in better shape than those participating in preseason for said sport. 

At the end of the day, no one has any empirical data to show what the participation numbers will be or what the retention rate will be. The challenge is to find a solution within this construct. Pessimism and defeatism can infect a culture/team. Let’s guard against that. 
 

Doesn’t basketball have more games and longer season than wrestling? I don’t know of anyone complaining about basketball players missing spring sports.

10 minutes ago, gator1 said:

But requiring a 4.5 month commitment as the baseline for regular season is the wrong answer to growing the sport. 

 

 

Football season essentially starts in July and ends in November. Basketball season starts the same week wrestling does (tomorrow) and lasts longer. 

1 hour ago, GentleBeard said:

I get the feeling some assume mandatory practices MUST begin tomorrow and they MUST have tournaments every weekend from November 6th until March 5th/12th. If this is how you run your program, I’m certain there will be burnout.
 

SOME kids might miss preseason for spring sports, but the likely trade off is that they’ll be in better shape than those participating in preseason for said sport. 

At the end of the day, no one has any empirical data to show what the participation numbers will be or what the retention rate will be. The challenge is to find a solution within this construct. Pessimism and defeatism can infect a culture/team. Let’s guard against that. 
 

Doesn’t basketball have more games and longer season than wrestling? I don’t know of anyone complaining about basketball players missing spring sports.

Those of us who coach spring sports do complain about the length of basketball season ;-). I often hear wrestling folks compare wrestling to sports like basketball and football. While it is an understandable argument, like it or not wrestling is a niche sport and not really comparable to the other more mainstream sports. While I’d rather attend a wrestling match over a basketball game any day, the vast majority of people don’t feel the same way. That makes it hard to attract kids to try the sport out, and even fewer kids decide to specialize in the sport. The more hurdles we put in place, and the harder we make it to participate, the harder it’s going to be to attract and retain kids. Wrestling is already very tough physically and mentally, not mention the discipline that’s required to maintain weight. For all but the most dedicated, a long season is going to be a big deterrent. Basketball, football and most every other sport doesn’t entail the same mental and physical grind that wrestling does, and thus doesn’t suffer the same challenges a long season presents. 

53 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

Those of us who coach spring sports do complain about the length of basketball season ;-). I often hear wrestling folks compare wrestling to sports like basketball and football. While it is an understandable argument, like it or not wrestling is a niche sport and not really comparable to the other more mainstream sports. While I’d rather attend a wrestling match over a basketball game any day, the vast majority of people don’t feel the same way. That makes it hard to attract kids to try the sport out, and even fewer kids decide to specialize in the sport. The more hurdles we put in place, and the harder we make it to participate, the harder it’s going to be to attract and retain kids. Wrestling is already very tough physically and mentally, not mention the discipline that’s required to maintain weight. For all but the most dedicated, a long season is going to be a big deterrent. Basketball, football and most every other sport doesn’t entail the same mental and physical grind that wrestling does, and thus doesn’t suffer the same challenges a long season presents. 

I’m not comparing the quality of sports. There’s no comparison in my bias. I’m comparing the length of seasons that seem to be a deterrent. It seems to me that if you don’t want a long season, you don’t have to schedule one. If you want to schedule tournaments every weekend from November - March then you can schedule that as well. 

21 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

I’m not comparing the quality of sports. There’s no comparison in my bias. I’m comparing the length of seasons that seem to be a deterrent. It seems to me that if you don’t want a long season, you don’t have to schedule one. If you want to schedule tournaments every weekend from November - March then you can schedule that as well. 

And that's absolutely correct, and I'm sure many won't have an event every weekend. In fact, most probably shouldn't, or at least make many of the events not mandatory. We've already decided to push the start of practice back some.

I fully admit I'm still trying to figure out the secret sauce to not only get kids to come out, but to stay. And making the season longer doesn't address or fix any of the problems that previously existed that have hurt growth. It only adds another problem to the mix. 

2 hours ago, GentleBeard said:

I’m not comparing the quality of sports. There’s no comparison in my bias. I’m comparing the length of seasons that seem to be a deterrent. It seems to me that if you don’t want a long season, you don’t have to schedule one. If you want to schedule tournaments every weekend from November - March then you can schedule that as well. 

The long season is a deterrent to attracting and retaining new kids.  Basketball and football are huge in Kentucky, they're not facing the same challenge.  So comparing their schedules to wrestling is irrelevant to the problem of attracting and retaining new kids.   

Yes, we could each chose to have shorter schedules or longer schedules and/or only compete on certain weekends as you say.  But that exacerbates the other challenge we have with low participation, which is that events are extremely spread out and many of us have to drive very far every weekend for our events.  If half the teams compete on some Saturdays and half on other Saturdays, that just spreads out the geographic density of events, lengthening the travel.

That's not easy on anyone, and especially hard to digest for new wrestlers and their parents who have not yet fallen in love with wrestling.  I know this because they've told me this.  

This is not pessimistic or defeatest, or whatever other adjectives you've used.  My optimism is strong, and I believe we could have a growing and thriving wrestling community in Kentucky, but not if we make decisions that are counter to this goal.  This is why I wanted to state the challenge, and point out that the decision that was voted on by a small percentage of vested participants further exacerbates the problem. 

I still haven't heard a solid argument for why we've moved our post season out by over a month other than a general statement of "logisitics."  

56 minutes ago, gator1 said:I still haven't heard a solid argument for why we've moved our post season out by over a month other than a general statement of "logisitics."  

 

What date do you propose the middle school post season take place that would be accommodative to having enough officials?

You mentioned that this current scenario was passed by “a small vested group of coaches”. That seems to be a problem if the universe of vested coaches is small. 
 

Bye weeks might actually allow you to retain kids if parents aren’t traveling and wrestlers aren’t making weight every weekend. Do your best in the current climate as you see fit for your program and let’s revisit the empirical data at the end of the season. I’m curious to see the results. 

Ok I'm just an old fart who has been around way to long and wrestled on rocks. 

     But in most sports the younger the participants the shorter the season. High school sports usually last longer than Middle school sports, Middle school sports have a longer season than Youth. 

     To get the most out of what we have everyone must work together. As wrestlerref stated Tenn. and Ind. have little to no organization and the schedules are erratic.  Gator1 advice of having a condensed season with more available tournaments would probably result in more attendance at tournaments/events. 

     Maybe a mid January championship season would help with the referee problem.  If the official season can end at this time it allows the middle school kids participating in high school to still participate in the high school season and post season.  You can still have a few youth/middle school events after the championship season for those diehard wrestlers.  

     The problem with having vested coaches for middle school is that many of those not considered vested are coaches doing double/triple duty (coaching Youth/middle and high school.) With the technology we have today we should be able to get ALL coaches feedback through electronic means. Even a blog such as this can help with ideas. I'm sure a private blog could be set up for middle school coaches only somewhere. (That way you can keep me and my cockamamie ideas out). 

**Disclaimer** These are the thoughts of GOO nothing more and nothing less. You can take them or leave them. In the world scheme of things they mean little or nothing.  GOO out. 

To Address the meetings of small size. I for one do not attend any longer. I used to try and log on when they were on zoom or other styles but most or all was just a bunch of arguing or talking over each other.  Some very critical comments sometimes when people tried to speak of different thoughts. I haven't seen much in working together on just the ones I attended. Doesn't say it hasn't gotten better. Just saying sometimes new ideals are meant with a lot of negativity before we look at the thoughts behind them.

Now as to season and starts I agree with GentleBeard and I did push my start back for several reasons. In the past we always tried to start close to when high school did but due to middle being 4th thru 8th and trying to build and retain kids with covid issues as well as youth football not ending all-stars in my area till first week of Nov. I moved middle school back to start second week of Nov just 2 days a week because parents didn't want a kid to start a new sport after it had already started. (so they are telling me) I didnt schedule them any matches till Jan with some of the better 7 & 8th just staying up with the high school to get more mat time in exhibition matches if they want to. This was done just to rebuild numbers we lost during covid and to try and retain more kids as we let them build a love for the sport before it becoming a year around sport. As for long term I really dont know the overall answer to building numbers and being better, but I will say I have been doing this now my 18th season and the kids in KY are the best I have ever seen with more teams wrestling than ever before during my time. In saying that it seems the numbers of some teams have gotten less and its seems harder and harder for those teams to now fill roster spots. So that we need to try and build as well as stay focused on building our level of wrestling.