Does anyone have an answer of what happens next? Track seeding? Coaches seeding? Random 1v4, 2v3?
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Semi state seeding
Topic ID: 16390 | 68 Posts
KHSAA site says random R1vR4, R2vR3,
No idea about the state though, guessing that will be coach seeding.
8 hours ago, DrBaker said:Looks like we will find out an noon tomorrow.
That is noon central time.
3 hours ago, Kylemckune said:KHSAA site says random R1vR4, R2vR3,
No idea about the state though, guessing that will be coach seeding.
I believe for State at GRC, it will be East vs West; 1v8, 4v5, 3v6, 2v7. If that makes sense.
1 hour ago, thegreatgatsby said:That is noon central time.
I believe for State at GRC, it will be East vs West; 1v8, 4v5, 3v6, 2v7. If that makes sense.
There is no East Vs West. Only top 4 from four different regionals will be there. 4 champions 4 runner ups etc.
4 hours ago, Kylemckune said:KHSAA site says random R1vR4, R2vR3,
No idea about the state though, guessing that will be coach seeding.
With only two semi-states there is no need for seeding at state. The 2 champions opposite each other then 1v8 2v7 ..........
It would be nice to know how they will do it. If it is 1v8 and so on we could see some forfeits at semi state to get the best finals matchups. No one wants to see the best 2 kids wrestle in the quarters.
https://khsaa.org/2022-state-first-round-random-draw/
This is on the KHSAA site..takes some digging but you can fill in what the bracket looks like from this spreadsheet...
11 minutes ago, Chris Duke said:Random draw is terrible. Kinley and Giannone on the same side
I agree, lots of terrible draws. Would have much rather had it seeded from top to bottom by the coaches.
14 minutes ago, Chris Duke said:Random draw is terrible. Kinley and Giannone on the same side
McCune and Rider and Beane and Andreoni are on the same side.
33 minutes ago, Chris Duke said:Random draw is terrible. Kinley and Giannone on the same side
This is ridiculous!
come on Ky you need to do better than this!
28 minutes ago, Chris Duke said:Random draw is terrible. Kinley and Giannone on the same side
It's really going to affect the kids the loser gets in the consolations more in the long run.
How can we seed the small Fern Creek tournament but not our Semi-State and State meet ?
No wonder Ky Wrestling is so far behind !
the people at the helm have no clue what these kids go through and how unfair a random draw is:(
46 minutes ago, Bluegrassgrappler said:Does anyone know for certain why we don’t just seed the tournaments?
Because any way you do it, someone gets pissed.
1 hour ago, hybrid said:
It's really going to affect the kids the loser gets in the consolations more in the long run.
Yes! When the number 2 kid in state loses to the number 1 in the quarters or semis, they go through and kick out lots of deserving kids. Happens every year.
2 hours ago, Chris Duke said:Random draw is terrible. Kinley and Giannone on the same side
Same side at semi state should result in opposite sides at state….should is the key word
9 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:Same side at semi state should result in opposite sides at state….should is the key word
Depends on if they use The Who follows who method or if they use track to seed it. I would say if they meet in the finals they would be opposite if they meet earlier who knows what will happen.
If we know how the bracket will play out for state we could see kids forfeit to 4th or 5th place to get opposite side of the bracket. It all depends on how khsaa seeds it.
57 minutes ago, DrBaker said:Because any way you do it, someone gets pissed.
The goal isn't to make people happy, it's too have the 8 best guys in the quarters, the 4 best in the semis, and the two best in the finals.
The lazy way that we're doing it definitely isn't accomplishing this.
2 hours ago, Checkmate said:How can we seed the small Fern Creek tournament but not our Semi-State and State meet ?
No wonder Ky Wrestling is so far behind !
the people at the helm have no clue what these kids go through and how unfair a random draw is:(
No doubt!!!!
42 minutes ago, gator1 said:The goal isn't to make people happy, it's too have the 8 best guys in the quarters, the 4 best in the semis, and the two best in the finals.
The lazy way that we're doing it definitely isn't accomplishing this.
I agree. I’m just saying that’s why they don’t.
It’s so funny reading this tread. The same people who say “you wanna be the best, you gotta beat the best” are complaining about a blind draw. I guess it’s only fair if there team/child is receiving the lesser ranked opponent. A blind draw gives all the kids a chance. Just saying practice what you preach.
Good luck to all these young men. Who’s season hasn’t ended yet. And hopefully we won’t see to many Uncle Rico’s this weekend.
4 hours ago, Region2Alum said:It’s so funny reading this tread. The same people who say “you wanna be the best, you gotta beat the best” are complaining about a blind draw. I guess it’s only fair if there team/child is receiving the lesser ranked opponent. A blind draw gives all the kids a chance. Just saying practice what you preach.
Good luck to all these young men. Who’s season hasn’t ended yet. And hopefully we won’t see to many Uncle Rico’s this weekend.
A blind draw screws the fans and screws the kids. 2 years ago Trayce Eckman#3, lost to Spencer Moore #1 in the 2nd round. Trayce then went into the consolations and went 5-0. He knocked out 4 kids that should have had a shot to place.
I am a proponent of seeing because I want to see the best 2 kids in the finals.
Does it really matter at semi-state? The top 8 are going to state. Just qualify and you can still win the next weekend.
4 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:Does it really matter at semi-state? The top 8 are going to state. Just qualify and you can still win the next weekend.
It does matter. Depending on where you finish could decide what side of the bracket you are on.
Well KHSAA messed up the seeding last year. (This has always been my concern) I would be ok with just seeding the regional champions at semi-state. No reason to seed everyone like last year and have kids who got 3rd in their region get second seed at semi-state.
Plus you should not have to wrestle someone from your region in the 1st or 2nd round. Maybe they are the 4 best and they are all 4 in the semi's. (2 of my 3 years qualifying for state my region weight class had 3 in the semi's at state)
If you seed the champions then the runner ups will be opposite their regional champ and still be able to make the finals again.
We can argue regional strength all you want but its geographical and nothing you can do about it.
The issue is if you have hands down the top 2 kids in the state wrestle in the semifinals at semi state they could end up on the same side at state. The track seeding though not perfect is a lot better than this garbage.
1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:Does it really matter at semi-state? The top 8 are going to state. Just qualify and you can still win the next weekend.
Of course it does. The best 8 deserve to go, not just the luckiest 8. It still gets everything all skewed when the 2nd best kid is 3rd.
Why don’t they just do what MS does?? Seed the champs from the region and let the other placers fall in
6 minutes ago, Keepyourheadup said:Why don’t they just do what MS does?? Seed the champs from the region and let the other placers fall in
Because ms doesn’t follow khsaa rules.
5 minutes ago, DrBaker said:Because ms doesn’t follow khsaa rules.
I know they don’t but that would be the simplest thing for HS to do. It just amazes me the khsaa won’t listen. This has been a thing that has been complained about for ever. They do that rating thing for football. That’s just like seeding
The problem with seeding is that the “two best kids” are always subjective. One of the true historians around here can probably answer this - how many times have the “1 & 2” been on opposite sides of the bracket and still not meet in the finals? You see this all the time in college - the ncaa’s are seeded all the way out and the 1&2’s very rarely meet in the finals.
If it could be done right, I’d probably be all for it, but where’s the fun in that? If we all knew who truly was 1 & 2, 3 & 4, etc., then why wrestle the tournament if it’s already predetermined? Trust me, there are many matches where I believed it should’ve been the finals match, but at least I still got to see the match regardless of where it happened. Sure, some kids may get “screwed” but that’s the name of the game, unfortunately. They shouldn’t seed the tournament simply because it can’t be done. Prove me wrong with facts and I’ll easily concede my argument.
2 hours ago, Dblev275 said:The problem with seeding is that the “two best kids” are always subjective. One of the true historians around here can probably answer this - how many times have the “1 & 2” been on opposite sides of the bracket and still not meet in the finals? You see this all the time in college - the ncaa’s are seeded all the way out and the 1&2’s very rarely meet in the finals.
Like you said who exactly are the true top 2? It is subjective. I could go through the old brackets and see who I believe was the top 2 and did not meet in the finals but that would only be my opinion. I know that many times the #2 from a region made it to the finals and lost. the #1 from that same region did not place 3rd.
2 hours ago, Dblev275 said:The problem with seeding is that the “two best kids” are always subjective. One of the true historians around here can probably answer this - how many times have the “1 & 2” been on opposite sides of the bracket and still not meet in the finals? You see this all the time in college - the ncaa’s are seeded all the way out and the 1&2’s very rarely meet in the finals.
If it could be done right, I’d probably be all for it, but where’s the fun in that? If we all knew who truly was 1 & 2, 3 & 4, etc., then why wrestle the tournament if it’s already predetermined? Trust me, there are many matches where I believed it should’ve been the finals match, but at least I still got to see the match regardless of where it happened. Sure, some kids may get “screwed” but that’s the name of the game, unfortunately. They shouldn’t seed the tournament simply because it can’t be done. Prove me wrong with facts and I’ll easily concede my argument.
Upsets are supposed to happen. The way random draw was, it was a 1/3 chance for the top 2 to meet in quarters, 1/3 for semis, 1/3 for finals. Almost every other event in the world has some sort of seeding. The goal should be to hand the top 4 in the semis and top 2 of those in the finals.
18 hours ago, DrBaker said:Of course it does. The best 8 deserve to go, not just the luckiest 8. It still gets everything all skewed when the 2nd best kid is 3rd.
I understand your argument, but I have witnessed on several occasions where a region had 5 or 6 of the best guys in a weight class all fighting for the 4 qualifying spots. That meant when the dust settled and the regional tournament was over one or two of the "best kids in the state" were sitting in the stands for the State Tournament.
Every year at a qualifying event there are kids who could place that never make the tournament. This year will be no different.
2 hours ago, neverbreak said:I understand your argument, but I have witnessed on several occasions where a region had 5 or 6 of the best guys in a weight class all fighting for the 4 qualifying spots. That meant when the dust settled and the regional tournament was over one or two of the "best kids in the state" were sitting in the stands for the State Tournament.
Every year at a qualifying event there are kids who could place that never make the tournament. This year will be no different.
True, but regions are based on geography, there's nothing reasonable we can do about it. Seeding, or not seeding, is a choice. We're clearly making the lazy choice.
The NFL, MLB and NBA also restrict who makes the playoffs based on conferences and divisions. But they don't just randomly draw the playoffs bracket once the regular season is over. Because that would be dumb and no one would accept it.
4 minutes ago, gator1 said:The NFL, MLB and NBA also restrict who makes the playoffs based on conferences and divisions. But they don't just randomly draw the playoffs bracket once the regular season is over. Because that would be dumb and no one would accept it.
I have conceded to seeding the regional champs but beyond that is not possible.
The NBA, NFL, .... all are measuring apples to apples. We are measuring apples to oranges. Many teams go out of state for competition, and we have no idea the strength of their competition, many of those states do not use track to counting wins of the opponents you have beaten is impossible. You can't just say he wrestled the kid from the #1 ranked team in the nation, maybe they put in their 4th string kid to try and get him a win.
By the time state rolls around, there are several head to heads for most people. Especially after the regional tournament. Yeah, some teams dodge tough competition the whole year and have absurd records, but those kids will get weeded out after regionals.
3 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:
I have conceded to seeding the regional champs but beyond that is not possible.
The NBA, NFL, .... all are measuring apples to apples. We are measuring apples to oranges. Many teams go out of state for competition, and we have no idea the strength of their competition, many of those states do not use track to counting wins of the opponents you have beaten is impossible. You can't just say he wrestled the kid from the #1 ranked team in the nation, maybe they put in their 4th string kid to try and get him a win.
That’s the thing, we can use technology we already have and give analytic data on wins and losses in and out of state. Does beating a champ from Indiana affect it more than the #5 kid in Ky? Absolutely. Matches are required to be put in track. This data is right there in front of us. Track can do it in the blink of an eye. It’s not perfect, but it’s easily adjustable. We can seat the top 100 if we wanted to.
3 hours ago, DrBaker said:That’s the thing, we can use technology we already have and give analytic data on wins and losses in and out of state. Does beating a champ from Indiana affect it more than the #5 kid in Ky? Absolutely. Matches are required to be put in track. This data is right there in front of us. Track can do it in the blink of an eye. It’s not perfect, but it’s easily adjustable. We can seat the top 100 if we wanted to.
Track does not know what happens in Ohio they do enter results in track. Most of Nky spend 3/4 of their season in Ohio. Track would not even know if they defeated a state champion in Ohio.
12 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:Track does not know what happens in Ohio they do enter results in track. Most of Nky spend 3/4 of their season in Ohio. Track would not even know if they defeated a state champion in Ohio.
This is a section of Cole Thomas’s season. Shows his only loss to a badass from LaSalle. He has a 99.5 ranking.
9 hours ago, DrBaker said:This is a section of Cole Thomas’s season. Shows his only loss to a badass from LaSalle. He has a 99.5 ranking.
If track is able to do this then why was semi-state and state last year so jacked up?
As I have stated. I am completely on board with seeding the regional champions. If this is a progressive post season then what happens in region should count more than anything else in seeding.
What I don't want to see is kids from the same region wrestling each other in the 1st round. This happened in the early 2000's at state and they fixed it.
10 hours ago, DrBaker said:This is a section of Cole Thomas’s season. Shows his only loss to a badass from LaSalle. He has a 99.5 ranking.
I agree that RankWrestlers is better at giving a data driven seeding/ranking than Track. Track Wrestling seeding semi-state last year based on records and past qualifiers was really messed up.
I don't know what the best answer or solution is but I would like to see KHSAA at least have a discussion with the Coaches Association.
I don't believe the "track" seeding from last year was jacked up. I thought it was pretty good. Once you understand the criteria and the process it made sense. Now there may be debates about the exact criteria and order applied, but overall I thought last year was very good. But unfortunately we have too many whiners who complained and now we are back to random draws.
Just because there are upsets doesn't make seeding wrong or inaccurate. Seeding is based on the actual results and objectively sets the bracket based on what has happened prior to the event. The Bengals were not even close to the best team in the AFC all year and had to run the gauntlet to make the Super Bowl. In the end they proved they were the best team in the AFC when it counted. Doesn't make the seeding wrong or suggest there shouldn't have been seeding.
Not buying the rank wrestlers path. Just as many flaws there. Maybe for the top guys, but not for full seeding. I've only checked it out a few times over the years and seen girls with 4-0 records ranked above good guys.
1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:
If track is able to do this then why was semi-state and state last year so jacked up?
As I have stated. I am completely on board with seeding the regional champions. If this is a progressive post season then what happens in region should count more than anything else in seeding.
What I don't want to see is kids from the same region wrestling each other in the 1st round. This happened in the early 2000's at state and they fixed it.
I just looked through the state bracket and seeds worked great. Best 2 wrestlers made finals in almost every class.
4 minutes ago, Ranger123 said:Not buying the rank wrestlers path. Just as many flaws there. Maybe for the top guys, but not for full seeding. I've only checked it out a few times over the years and seen girls with 4-0 records ranked above good guys.
RankWrestlers has flaws for sure. It is track. I was just showing that that Ohio and Indiana do put results in. You put in the 16 wrestlers for state and it will seed them pretty damn close. They might have to wrestle a regional opponent again in the 1st round, but that’s just how it works. I just hate seeing Deck vs Adams and Johnson vs Sheffer at 9am when they deserved to be on the big stage.
I just like the data and true percentages you can see on RankWrestlers. Track seems to blindly look at records and factor that too high in seeding. We've all been in a seeding meeting where it goes like this:
Why do you have the 2 seed? What's your record?
12-0
How many are forfeits?
9...
Lol.
18 minutes ago, chad.greenwell said:I just like the data and true percentages you can see on RankWrestlers. Track seems to blindly look at records and factor that too high in seeding. We've all been in a seeding meeting where it goes like this:
Why do you have the 2 seed? What's your record?
12-0
How many are forfeits?
9...
Lol.
Agree with that. But as long as the criteria is appropriately set (record is last resort) then it will work out pretty well.
38 minutes ago, Ranger123 said:I don't believe the "track" seeding from last year was jacked up. I thought it was pretty good. Once you understand the criteria and the process it made sense. Now there may be debates about the exact criteria and order applied, but overall I thought last year was very good. But unfortunately we have too many whiners who complained and now we are back to random draws.
Just because there are upsets doesn't make seeding wrong or inaccurate. Seeding is based on the actual results and objectively sets the bracket based on what has happened prior to the event. The Bengals were not even close to the best team in the AFC all year and had to run the gauntlet to make the Super Bowl. In the end they proved they were the best team in the AFC when it counted. Doesn't make the seeding wrong or suggest there shouldn't have been seeding.
Here is where I have the problem. Last year Savage got the #1 seed at Semi state after getting 3rd at Region, losing to Brooksbank. This is why I only want the regional champs seeded. Otherwise why wrestle the placement round. All you have to do is wrestle until you qualify, no medals are given.
have not gone through the other brackets but I am sure this type of thing happened someplace else. The coaches absolutely hatted having to wrestle kids from their own region the 1st round of state, that is why it was changed 20 years ago.
I am not saying my opinion can't be changed, it has already, (Ranger was implemental in this) I was against any seeding at state. I have been convinced that seeding the champions will solve most if not all the problems. I believe seeding more than that will muddle up the rest of the bracket.
AH. I would exactly equate the Savage-Brooksbank saga to the Bengals. Cincinnati beat the Chiefs late in the season. But seeding is based on the entire body of work which favored KC and Savage last year. In the end, Brooksbank and Cincy showed they were better when it mattered. Nothing wrong with that. Just the way it goes sometimes.
I'm not totally opposed to just seeding the champs. I was the MS president when we implemented that process for MS. It works well. But MS has much much less head to head results or even common opponents along with just less reliable result tracking. While I'm sure a lot of folks don't like wrestling regional opponents early at state, I am more concerned with a state champ carrying a weak region to advantaged matchups rather than what a kid has earned by their own results.
The only difference it that it was a post season event unlike the Bengals.
Plus your talking to one of those weird people who does not watch NFL so I don't know the criteria for seeding in NFL
16 hours ago, DrBaker said:That’s the thing, we can use technology we already have and give analytic data on wins and losses in and out of state. Does beating a champ from Indiana affect it more than the #5 kid in Ky? Absolutely. Matches are required to be put in track. This data is right there in front of us. Track can do it in the blink of an eye. It’s not perfect, but it’s easily adjustable. We can seat the top 100 if we wanted to.
But there-in lies the problem. Coaches are required to put the information into track, yet no one enforces this rule and teams don't always put in their results. Some wait until the end of the season, others never bother to put in anything. Until the powers that be back up their threat of sanctions for those who do not update their track records, track will not be as effective as it could be.
12 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:The only difference it that it was a post season event unlike the Bengals.
Plus your talking to one of those weird people who does not watch NFL so I don't know the criteria for seeding in NFL
True. But that win at region just made the head to head a wash. Other criteria put Savage as the 1.
I actually don't have time to watch much football either. But they have their criteria and it is what it is. Once everyone knows that you live by it.
Just seed the 4 region champions. That is simple. The goal is always to have 1 and 2 meet in the finals. It makes upsets much sweeter, and provides a much more accurate placement for the wrestlers. The one problem that happens is when 1 and 2 are from the same region like Cole and Isaac. Even in that scenario I think it should be fine to put them on opposite sides of the bracket, coaches should all agree on that. Problem is that they want the best scenario for their wrestler or team and then they argue against seeding. So everything is always relative to each persons personal scenario.
Love all the friendly banter though.
Ranger when are new rankings coming out? lol
1 hour ago, naplesme said:But there-in lies the problem. Coaches are required to put the information into track, yet no one enforces this rule and teams don't always put in their results. Some wait until the end of the season, others never bother to put in anything. Until the powers that be back up their threat of sanctions for those who do not update their track records, track will not be as effective as it could be.
They put them in when they want those regional seeds. Lol. There are enough matches posted to do a pretty good job seeding the tourneys.
Track has its problems and not a big fan but it really doesn't matter if not for two things one when someone wins that shouldn't and two seeing a match up we want to be semis or finals. Truth we cant fix any of that because its truly out of our hands. What would help is if the other issues with track were to be fixed. I don't see any reason track cant make it so you can not print your next weight sheet till after you not only put in your weights as it is now but your matches and update records. It would be a easy fix for track to do this if they wanted or was asked by the state but its just not important enough to the ones who could maybe make that happen. And as stated before there is no plenty for not using track you see it all the time even at regionals kids seeded with a 0-0 or 3-1 when you know they wrestled more than that.
5 minutes ago, panthers said:Track has its problems and not a big fan but it really doesn't matter if not for two things one when someone wins that shouldn't and two seeing a match up we want to be semis or finals. Truth we cant fix any of that because its truly out of our hands. What would help is if the other issues with track were to be fixed. I don't see any reason track cant make it so you can not print your next weight sheet till after you not only put in your weights as it is now but your matches and update records. It would be a easy fix for track to do this if they wanted or was asked by the state but its just not important enough to the ones who could maybe make that happen. And as stated before there is no plenty for not using track you see it all the time even at regionals kids seeded with a 0-0 or 3-1 when you know they wrestled more than that.
This is not mandated by track, this is mandated by your local State Association. Missouri already does this and holds coaches accountable for not putting in results. But, MSHSAA is the one who tells Trackwrestling their procedures. You can have 2 weigh in sheets open, if results or weights are not entered then you are locked out. Track will only do what it is told by the associations, therefore it is not a Trackwrestling problem but a KHSAA problem. All results and weigh ins sheets are verified at district seeding meeting.
2 hours ago, Ranger123 said:tonight
Good luck my friend !!
Thanks for giving us something to talk about and keeping the wrestlers motivated
3 hours ago, 119Rider said:This is not mandated by track, this is mandated by your local State Association. Missouri already does this and holds coaches accountable for not putting in results. But, MSHSAA is the one who tells Trackwrestling their procedures. You can have 2 weigh in sheets open, if results or weights are not entered then you are locked out. Track will only do what it is told by the associations, therefore it is not a Trackwrestling problem but a KHSAA problem. All results and weigh ins sheets are verified at district seeding meeting.
Thanks I was going to mention that Missouri does this. So the KHSAA could actually do it's job and hold schools resposible for inputing their results, as they threaten to do, but never backed up.
3 minutes ago, naplesme said:Thanks I was going to mention that Missouri does this. So why can't the KHSAA actually hold schools resposible for inputing their results, as they threaten to do, but never backed up?
Same reason the KHSAA isn’t doing an awards ceremony at State or listening to feedback. They don’t care about wrestling.
17 hours ago, 119Rider said:This is not mandated by track, this is mandated by your local State Association. Missouri already does this and holds coaches accountable for not putting in results. But, MSHSAA is the one who tells Trackwrestling their procedures. You can have 2 weigh in sheets open, if results or weights are not entered then you are locked out. Track will only do what it is told by the associations, therefore it is not a Trackwrestling problem but a KHSAA problem. All results and weigh ins sheets are verified at district seeding meeting.
Yes I agree thats why I said if the state would ask them to do so. I knew other states did this just wasnt sure which ones so thanks for the input as well. Who knows maybe someone high enough will see it and help with this problem.
I wish the same thing Panthers. Sad thing is that I don't live in Kentucky anymore but still hate the way the wrestling community is treated by the state. They wanted to grow wrestling and did so with the 32 man bracket but seem to have just stopped there with that momentum. Putting together more efficient tourneys and the best representation of what wrestling truly is would have brought lots of money to the state. Once wrestling families are in and hooked, they probably spend more than any other family. Travel to tourneys, food, hours upon hours of dedication. If the state would have jumped on that then they could have been reaping the rewards now.