This really makes zero sense. Some of these kids will see the same guys 3 weeks in a row. It’s just dumb. How many times does Thornton have to wrestle Thomas, Brown wrestle Raney. We need a bigger arena and a 32 man state. 

Agreed.

But, it’s state lol you could conceivably go 4-6 and place in the top 6 with back to back semi slides. Or, one could finish 8th at semi state and still have the opportunity to be a state champ. Pretty wild definition of what constitutes a state tournament.

It should be a separate tournament with no points carried over to the State "Final Round." 

4 minutes ago, BroOfCoach said:

It should be a separate tournament with no points carried over to the State "Final Round." 

Agreed. Coach teeter said they call it semis state and consider it state due to khsaa wanting to increase numbers at the state tournament. Which makes no sense to me. No one considers semi state the same as state. I’m wonder if it changes where the money goes. If the khsaa considers semi state the same tournament state does it mean they get the gate money?  Does it change the profit?  

20 minutes ago, WVhighlander said:

Agreed. Coach teeter said they call it semis state and consider it state due to khsaa wanting to increase numbers at the state tournament. Which makes no sense to me. No one considers semi state the same as state. I’m wonder if it changes where the money goes. If the khsaa considers semi state the same tournament state does it mean they get the gate money?  Does it change the profit?  

It does not increase the numbers.... It increases the profits for KHSAA and also doesn't require teams to stay in Lexington for 3-4 days. It really does not save money on transportation as woodford and anderson are traveling to union. I can understand they are trying to mitigate risks of covid but this yr it makes no sense as UK and everyone else has been wide open with full attendance. Id like to see it change back to a 32 man bracket after next yr and the new venue in lexington be the host to the tourney.

19 minutes ago, WVhighlander said:

Agreed. Coach teeter said they call it semis state and consider it state due to khsaa wanting to increase numbers at the state tournament. Which makes no sense to me. No one considers semi state the same as state. I’m wonder if it changes where the money goes. If the khsaa considers semi state the same tournament state does it mean they get the gate money?  Does it change the profit?  

Yes, they get the money. 

Wonder why they don’t just spread the 16 man bracket over the course of 3 days, then? It’s inconvenient, doesn’t make sense, but at least they’re honest. It would mitigate the error of calling “semi state” as part of the actual state tournament. I could be wrong but I’m not sure of another sport where you can lose up to 3 times in the post season and still call yourself a state champ.

24 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

Wonder why they don’t just spread the 16 man bracket over the course of 3 days, then? It’s inconvenient, doesn’t make sense, but at least they’re honest. It would mitigate the error of calling “semi state” as part of the actual state tournament. I could be wrong but I’m not sure of another sport where you can lose up to 3 times in the post season and still call yourself a state champ.

Could lose 5 times,  lose twice in region and finish 4th, advance to semi, lose 3 more and finish 8th and qualify.  

This is a modified remake of the district, region, state format that ran from the mid 90's through to the early 2000's.

Back then you could be 4th in District, 4th in Region, and be state champ.  You could also be 4th, 4th, and 6th and have a 6-7 record and be top 6 at state (only placed six with the 16 man bracket).

My point being, until it is the final tournament losses don't really matter, they never did in the past and they don't now.

They are calling it the state tournament because of the "everyone deserves a trophy" mentality. 

If it was really the first round then:

1) scores would carry over (and they are not this year...thank god)

2) champs from this weekend would be finalists next weekend

3) runner ups would be placed into consolation semis to wrestle the 3rd place finisher from the opposite semi-state

4) wrestlers with two losses would be eliminated from the second weekend of competition.

5) state tournament would pace top 6

They aren't trying to go back to a 16 man state.  They don't have a "everybody deserves a trophy mentality."  They are broke.  If they had money, the state tournament would be in an arena somewhere with 32 man brackets like it was.  That's what everyone wants, even the KHSAA.  They can't can't just split the normal tournament in half because the way the match ups are made and the way brackets cross.  Teams would have wrestlers at both semi states.  So yeah, it's a little different, but they're trying to do right by the kids and keep 32 wrestlers in the post season after region.  It's not ideal, but it's not permanent either.

4 minutes ago, Coach Burton said:

They aren't trying to go back to a 16 man state.  They don't have a "everybody deserves a trophy mentality."  They are broke.  If they had money, the state tournament would be in an arena somewhere with 32 man brackets like it was.  That's what everyone wants, even the KHSAA.  They can't can't just split the normal tournament in half because the way the match ups are made and the way brackets cross.  Teams would have wrestlers at both semi states.  So yeah, it's a little different, but they're trying to do right by the kids and keep 32 wrestlers in the post season after region.  It's not ideal, but it's not permanent either.

I really hope that you are right about this!  If they were planning on moving back to 32, wouldn't they already need a contract in place for a venue for 2023 season?

I have no idea how they are going to run the 2nd week of state at GRCHS this year.  It was packed last year with 8-man brackets and limiting who was allowed to have a ticket.

22 minutes ago, bestmistake33 said:

I really hope that you are right about this!  If they were planning on moving back to 32, wouldn't they already need a contract in place for a venue for 2023 season?

2023 First Round sites have already been selected.  1-4 will be at Louisville Central and 5-8 will be at Ryle.

4 minutes ago, thegreatgatsby said:

2023 First Round sites have already been selected.  1-4 will be at Louisville Central and 5-8 will be at Ryle.

Oh wow.  Didn’t know they figured that out already.  This doesn’t seem like a temporary thing then.  Wonder how long this goes on. 

1 hour ago, neverbreak said:

This is a modified remake of the district, region, state format that ran from the mid 90's through to the early 2000's.

Back then you could be 4th in District, 4th in Region, and be state champ.  You could also be 4th, 4th, and 6th and have a 6-7 record and be top 6 at state (only placed six with the 16 man bracket).

My point being, until it is the final tournament losses don't really matter, they never did in the past and they don't now.

 

They are calling it the state tournament because of the "everyone deserves a trophy" mentality. 

 

If it was really the first round then:

1) scores would carry over (and they are not this year...thank god)

2) champs from this weekend would be finalists next weekend

3) runner ups would be placed into consolation semis to wrestle the 3rd place finisher from the opposite semi-state

4) wrestlers with two losses would be eliminated from the second weekend of competition.

5) state tournament would pace top 6

Actually District, Region, State, was from 1980 thru 2001 Top 4 in District went to Region top 4 in region went to state, placed top 6

Had a teammate that placed 5th in district got in region as alternate (Someone did not make weight), was 5th in region got in state (someone got hurt in region finals) as alternate, placed 6th in state. 

Do you really want to have the setup you stated above for state?  I agree they are all separate tourneys.  Even in the NCAA's a second in conference can win the title. 

Someone winning the title over someone they lost to the weekend before is no different than someone from region 1 defeating someone from region 8 after losing to him once or twice in the season. 

Now calling Semi-state wrestlers state qualifiers is a stretch, but hopefully this is just a temporary thing (yeah right) and we get back to a 32 man bracket at state. 

1 hour ago, bestmistake33 said:

I really hope that you are right about this!  If they were planning on moving back to 32, wouldn't they already need a contract in place for a venue for 2023 season?

I have no idea how they are going to run the 2nd week of state at GRCHS this year.  It was packed last year with 8-man brackets and limiting who was allowed to have a ticket.

Are they limiting tickets again this year? This could put a damper on some extended family's plans.

51 minutes ago, Tbagnky said:

Are they limiting tickets again this year? This could put a damper on some extended family's plans.

I think they have to. 

3 hours ago, neverbreak said:

This is a modified remake of the district, region, state format that ran from the mid 90's through to the early 2000's.

Back then you could be 4th in District, 4th in Region, and be state champ.  You could also be 4th, 4th, and 6th and have a 6-7 record and be top 6 at state (only placed six with the 16 man bracket).

My point being, until it is the final tournament losses don't really matter, they never did in the past and they don't now.

 

They are calling it the state tournament because of the "everyone deserves a trophy" mentality. 

 

If it was really the first round then:

1) scores would carry over (and they are not this year...thank god)

2) champs from this weekend would be finalists next weekend

3) runner ups would be placed into consolation semis to wrestle the 3rd place finisher from the opposite semi-state

4) wrestlers with two losses would be eliminated from the second weekend of competition.

5) state tournament would pace top 6

Not sure if anyone noticed that points aren’t carrying over. 

19 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

Actually District, Region, State, was from 1980 thru 2001 Top 4 in District went to Region top 4 in region went to state, placed top 6

Had a teammate that placed 5th in district got in region as alternate (Someone did not make weight), was 5th in region got in state (someone got hurt in region finals) as alternate, placed 6th in state. 

Do you really want to have the setup you stated above for state?  I agree they are all separate tourneys.  Even in the NCAA's a second in conference can win the title. 

Someone winning the title over someone they lost to the weekend before is no different than someone from region 1 defeating someone from region 8 after losing to him once or twice in the season. 

Now calling Semi-state wrestlers state qualifiers is a stretch, but hopefully this is just a temporary thing (yeah right) and we get back to a 32 man bracket at state. 

 

No I do not want the setup to be as stated in my previous post.  I was pointing out that the only way KHSAA can consider this the first round of state is to eliminate anyone with a loss as a possible champ, carry points over to the next weekend, and let the placements from "1st round" fall in like I previously stated.

I personally think they should stop blowing smoke and just call it what it is a cheaper way for them to make money.  Tickets for Semi-Sate are $13 per person and for the "State Tournament" tickets are $25 per person with no option to only purchase Friday or Saturday tickets separately. 

17 hours ago, DrBaker said:

Not sure if anyone noticed that points aren’t carrying over. 

https://khsaa.org/wrestling/2022/firstroundinstructions.pdf

Click the link above and scroll to Page 10 and you will find what is posted below.

FORMAT/SCORING/BRACKETS/ORDER OF BOUTS

The State First Round Tournament will be conducted as a full-wrestleback format (consolation to 8th place) in each weight class.

The State First Round Tournament will be scored to the top 8 positions.

Weigh-ins and bouts will be conducted in bracket order, beginning with the lowest class.

A complete set of tournament brackets will only be available in advance of the state first round at KHSAA.org.

There will be no exclusion for wrestlers from the same region meeting in a specific round.

The State First Round event will be scored as its own event without points carrying to the State Final Round.

So does that mean medals and team trophies? 

11 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

So does that mean medals and team trophies? 

page 13 of the previously linked document answers your question.

COVID AWARDS PRESENTATION PROTOCOL

There are no KHSAA awards at the State Tournament First Round.

makes no sense to me. 

On 2/14/2022 at 3:25 PM, thegreatgatsby said:

2023 First Round sites have already been selected.  1-4 will be at Louisville Central and 5-8 will be at Ryle.

Please tell me that central is not hosting semi state next year!

Regionals alone was a catastrophe

(no offense)to central but there was no parking ,no track wrestling dashboard,,no mat assignments ,kids were running the tables and accidentally unplugging the score boards ,missing points because they were on their phone and the concession stand closed 4 hours before the tournament was over .

I’m not trying to be disrespectful,I just don’t think they can handle that kind of volume.

1 minute ago, Checkmate said:

Please tell me that central is not hosting semi state next year!

Regionals alone was a catastrophe

(no offense)to central but there was no parking ,no track wrestling dashboard,,no mat assignments ,kids were running the tables and accidentally unplugging the score boards ,missing points because they were on their phone and the concession stand closed 4 hours before the tournament was over .

I’m not trying to be disrespectful,I just don’t think they can handle that kind of volume.

I feel the same way about Ryle’s ability to handle this tournament next year.  It will be a complete mess. 

AMEN DUKE 

6 hours ago, Chris Duke said:

I feel the same way about Ryle’s ability to handle this tournament next year.  It will be a complete mess. 

I have complete faith in Ryle handling the tournament.  They have numerous alumni who help numerous coaches who can help and a knowledgeable parental following. Along with a huge parking lot. 

7 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

I have complete faith in Ryle handling the tournament.  They have numerous alumni who help numerous coaches who can help and a knowledgeable parental following. Along with a huge parking lot. 

Relax, Ryle runs a great tournament.  Kickemout runs a better tournament than the KHSAA with fewer people.  We have a few dads we have to keep a close eye on, 44Dad and Ranchy have the attention span of a field mouse and need help from our youth wrestlers just to make sure the ref knows the time.  Gameface is on the sound system some good some bad and we can not forget the voice of the Raiders who traveled with Kickemout to Simon Kenton last week to run the regional tournament.   

20 hours ago, neverbreak said:

No I do not want the setup to be as stated in my previous post.  I was pointing out that the only way KHSAA can consider this the first round of state is to eliminate anyone with a loss as a possible champ, carry points over to the next weekend, and let the placements from "1st round" fall in like I previously stated.

 

1. It is the KHSAA's tournament.  They can format it anyway and consider it anything they wish.  

2.  The KHSAA always plans out years ahead with a plan, even if they have no intention of keeping that plan.  It is one thing they do very well.  The hope is to go back to 32 man brackets in one arena, but they plan out a few years with the semi-state format incase that can't happen.

3.  The only reason the KHSAA hasn't gone back to the one arena 32 man bracket format this year is because they are broke.  Losing the sweet 16 last year killed their budget for years.  Not one year, but multiple.  When they get financially straight again, things will return to normal.  That's what everyone wants, even the KHSAA.

4. Not committing to an arena/format right now gives them options if they finally sanction girls wrestling.  It can be a combined event, much like track.  That will give them a lot more options on venue.

1 hour ago, Coach Burton said:

1. It is the KHSAA's tournament.  They can format it anyway and consider it anything they wish.  

2.  The KHSAA always plans out years ahead with a plan, even if they have no intention of keeping that plan.  It is one thing they do very well.  The hope is to go back to 32 man brackets in one arena, but they plan out a few years with the semi-state format incase that can't happen.

3.  The only reason the KHSAA hasn't gone back to the one arena 32 man bracket format this year is because they are broke.  Losing the sweet 16 last year killed their budget for years.  Not one year, but multiple.  When they get financially straight again, things will return to normal.  That's what everyone wants, even the KHSAA.

4. Not committing to an arena/format right now gives them options if they finally sanction girls wrestling.  It can be a combined event, much like track.  That will give them a lot more options on venue.

You are right the KHSAA can call it whatever they want.  That does not change the "KHSAA First Round State Tournament" to the actual state tournament.  It is simply a qualifying event for the actual tournament where team awards and medals will be won.

If the governing body says it the first round of the state tournament, then it's the first round of the state tournament. 

4 minutes ago, neverbreak said:

You are right the KHSAA can call it whatever they want.  That does not change the "KHSAA First Round State Tournament" to the actual state tournament.  It is simply a qualifying event for the actual tournament where team awards and medals will be won.

If the governing body says it's the first round of the state tournament then it's the first round of the state tournament. That's pretty cut and dry.

9 minutes ago, Coach Burton said:

If the governing body says it the first round of the state tournament, then it's the first round of the state tournament. 

If the governing body says it's the first round of the state tournament then it's the first round of the state tournament. That's pretty cut and dry.

Except for the fact that if it is truly part of the same tournament, team points would carry over.  The fact that you can lose a match one week and win a state title the next week also suggests they are two very different tournaments.  State champs don't lose a match in the state tournament, historically.  Just because the KHSAA calls a potato an apple doesn't make it one. 

1 hour ago, Coach Burton said:

If the governing body says it's the first round of the state tournament then it's the first round of the state tournament. That's pretty cut and dry.

Answer these two questions in defense of the governing body:

Why don't the team points carry over to the Final Round of State?

How can an individual have a loss or three during the state tournament and still be considered the state champion?  (please give me another sport where in the state tournament an individual or team can have a loss outside of qualifying events and be the champ.)

8 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

Except for the fact that if it is truly part of the same tournament, team points would carry over.  The fact that you can lose a match one week and win a state title the next week also suggests they are two very different tournaments.  State champs don't lose a match in the state tournament, historically.  Just because the KHSAA calls a potato an apple doesn't make it one. 

Beat me to the punch

1 hour ago, GentleBeard said:

Except for the fact that if it is truly part of the same tournament, team points would carry over.  The fact that you can lose a match one week and win a state title the next week also suggests they are two very different tournaments.  State champs don't lose a match in the state tournament, historically.  Just because the KHSAA calls a potato an apple doesn't make it one. 

John Smith lost a match in the Olympics in 1992 and still won gold.  Is his medal invalid?

10 minutes ago, Coach Burton said:

John Smith lost a match in the Olympics in 1992 and still won gold.  Is his medal invalid?

Good idea bring back classification points for high school wrestling.

18 minutes ago, Coach Burton said:

John Smith lost a match in the Olympics in 1992 and still won gold.  Is his medal invalid?

Surely you're not comparing the KHSAA State tournament in 2022 (as well as its precedent) to that of the Olympics in 1992? 

I was just pointing out another reason for why you guys were wrong and how there is precedent for tournaments that allow competitors to lose and then come back and win the title.

7 minutes ago, Coach Burton said:

I was just pointing out another reason for why you guys were wrong and how there is precedent for tournaments that allow competitors to lose and then come back and win the title.

Let me know when you can figure out an answer for the following questions.

Why don't the team points carry over to the Final Round of State?

How can an individual have a loss or three during the state tournament and still be considered the state champion?  (please give me another sport where in the state tournament an individual or team can have a loss outside of qualifying events and be the champ.)

I have bolded and underlined some key words to help avoid the inclusion of information that does not pertain to the KHSAA STATE TOURNAMENT.

44 minutes ago, Coach Burton said:

John Smith lost a match in the Olympics in 1992 and still won gold.  Is his medal invalid?

This only applies when vertical pairing is used. It has never applied to line bracketing.

2 hours ago, CoachC said:

This only applies when vertical pairing is used. It has never applied to line bracketing.

Yeah, but we've never had to make changes to the state tournament because of a pandemic either.  Regardless, if the KHSAA says it's the first round of the state tournament then it's the first round of the state tournament.  They can make it any format they wish. It's their tournament.  Just think of it as the qualifying heat, like in track or swimming.  The top eight advance regardless of who beat who.

4 hours ago, Coach Burton said:

Yeah, but we've never had to make changes to the state tournament because of a pandemic either.  Regardless, if the KHSAA says it's the first round of the state tournament then it's the first round of the state tournament.  They can make it any format they wish. It's their tournament.  Just think of it as the qualifying heat, like in track or swimming.  The top eight advance regardless of who beat who.

So you admit that it is simply a qualifying event.  Sort of like region is a qualifying event for First round of state or whatever the heck they are calling it.  First round of state is a qualifying event for Final Round  of State.  
 

This weekend is literally another qualifying event regardless of the nomenclature used by the KHSAA.

23 minutes ago, neverbreak said:

So you admit that it is simply a qualifying event.  Sort of like region is a qualifying event for First round of state or whatever the heck they are calling it.  First round of state is a qualifying event for Final Round  of State.  
 

This weekend is literally another qualifying event regardless of the nomenclature used by the KHSAA.

No, because the KHSAA, the governing body of the sport in our state, says it's the first round of the state tournament.  Since they have full and total authority on the matter, it is the first round of the state tournament, regardless of format.  It is their discretion on if team points carry over or not.  It is their discretion on whether a wrestler can lose in one round and still win the tournament.  You don't have to like it, but since it is their tournament, they get to dictate such matters.

A 100M sprinter 

19 hours ago, neverbreak said:

How can an individual have a loss or three during the state tournament and still be considered the state champion?  (please give me another sport where in the state tournament an individual or team can have a loss outside of qualifying events and be the champ.)

Track and field.  A sprinter can make the state tournament, lose (but qualify) in a preliminary heat, then win a state championship. Yes it's a "qualifying heat" but it's also part of the championship.  Just not the finals.  Not that complicated.  

2 hours ago, gator1 said:

A 100M sprinter 

Track and field.  A sprinter can make the state tournament, lose (but qualify) in a preliminary heat, then win a state championship. Yes it's a "qualifying heat" but it's also part of the championship.  Just not the finals.  Not that complicated.  

My point has always been, that this weekend is a qualifying event.  Not the state finals!  Just like you pointed out in your response you have heats, prelims, but they are not actually the state finals until medals are won.  If you go back to my original post on this thread it literally was all sarcasm.

I agree with Coach Burton the KHSAA can call it whatever they want, it doesn't change what it is, a qualifying event.

I said this the other day and it still holds true I believe for a lot of us coaches and fans. I hated most things about the Horsepark from its to cold for kids to weigh in with doors open to dirt floors but regardless of what we call or don't call their tourney none of us like where we are I believe including KHSAA. So name it call it whatever you want but now that mask are gone or optional for all lets all just hope that money will get back where it should be and we can find a better place to host and get back to real normal next season or in the near future. 

1 hour ago, panthers said:

I said this the other day and it still holds true I believe for a lot of us coaches and fans. I hated most things about the Horsepark from its to cold for kids to weigh in with doors open to dirt floors but regardless of what we call or don't call their tourney none of us like where we are I believe including KHSAA. So name it call it whatever you want but now that mask are gone or optional for all lets all just hope that money will get back where it should be and we can find a better place to host and get back to real normal next season or in the near future. 

 I'm holding my breath for this to become true.