Grateful for any support of the sport, but wow coming from another state the semi-state 1 exemplified a need to take a page from others. 

244 wrestlers in a venue with 4 mats, wrestling to 8th place …. Goes past 9pm  - so poor … especially folks coming from long drive in different time zone  

Randomized seeding - again so bad. 

is there really not a way to do a meaningful venue? Fairgrounds, convention center, any number of colleges? If it’s a money thing charge a little more for admission or just commit to supporting these athletes better. 

UC not at fault because they hosted it well as possible , but geez. 

2023 - PLEASE consider one state tournament, a real venue that puts the athletes first, and take the time to seed these guys (they deserve it). 

great job wrestlers, refs, and people that made it work as best as possible…. But bad call KHSAA - shameful 

Copy this for the other tournament!

There should be a huge outcry from anyone who cares about wrestling!!!

Years ago the state tournament was held at the Civic Center in Frankfurt, which was a bona fide stadium. It was well run and approximated the state tournaments in many other states. Since that time, in my humble opinion, the quality of the entire state tournaments series has gone downhill. The KHSAA seems to understand state tournament formats for major sports like football and basketball, but they show a complete lack of understanding of what the wrestling community would enjoy, and what would promote the sport.  However, you may have  to accept that this will fall on deaf ears.  If you look back at previous years you will see the same threads on this Site over and over again.  Most members of the wrestling committee, I think, have probably given up on the possibility of positive change.

The thing that kills it is the going back and forth between two mat areas/auxiliary gyms. When you watch grandparents and elderly struggle all day walking up and down bleachers and stairs trying to get to their grandchildren. You would think the least khsaa could do is find a gym or arena big enough for more mats even if it's still 2 rounds of state. 

I watched Indiana’s state finals and it was a party! They started it late and celebrated it. Our semi state finals started about the same time and was viewed as an inconvenience. 1/2 the teams and 3/4 of the fans left. Part of it really is a state of mind. Part of it is a real venue. 

50 minutes ago, DrBaker said:

I watched Indiana’s state finals and it was a party! They started it late and celebrated it. Our semi state finals started about the same time and was viewed as an inconvenience. 1/2 the teams and 3/4 of the fans left. Part of it really is a state of mind. Part of it is a real venue. 

Man!!!! That’s what I’m saying. Start late celebrate late. Give me a Corona with lime and I’m good. Helps the old bones man. 

4 hours ago, JHamBCalumni said:

Man!!!! That’s what I’m saying. Start late celebrate late. Give me a Corona with lime and I’m good. Helps the old bones man. 

Yes!!! A place to drink a beer after 10 hours of wrestling would have hit the spot. 

Semi state 2 was a statement that wrestling is second rate and a nuisance to the KHSAA.. What is supposed to be a post season event felt like a glorified scrimmage. No Awards, no fanfare, no celebration of the hard work these young men and women have put in all season No KHSAA representation for at least the first 2 hours of a KHSAA post season "event".We was informed about 8:50 that the parade of champions that was scheduled  for 9:00 was not going to happen because "we did not want to be there until midnight" then stood around 45 minutes waiting for matches to start. We have regressed since the dungeon in Frankfort  The KHSAA needs to do better. the wrestling community, the parents and most importantly the kids deserve better. They deserve a venue. They deserve the same respect that other sports receive. Put the basketball sweet 16 at a high school gym and see what happens.

8 hours ago, Tapout said:

Copy this for the other tournament!

There should be a huge outcry from anyone who cares about wrestling!!!

So I am curious of your opinion of the other tournament? Or are you echoing your dislike of us being stuck with this semi-state format?

1 hour ago, tcats said:

Semi state 2 was a statement that wrestling is second rate and a nuisance to the KHSAA.. What is supposed to be a post season event felt like a glorified scrimmage. No Awards, no fanfare, no celebration of the hard work these young men and women have put in all season No KHSAA representation for at least the first 2 hours of a KHSAA post season "event".We was informed about 8:50 that the parade of champions that was scheduled  for 9:00 was not going to happen because "we did not want to be there until midnight" then stood around 45 minutes waiting for matches to start. We have regressed since the dungeon in Frankfort  The KHSAA needs to do better. the wrestling community, the parents and most importantly the kids deserve better. They deserve a venue. They deserve the same respect that other sports receive. Put the basketball sweet 16 at a high school gym and see what happens.

So let me start by saying I agree with most of what you are saying but lets shed a little light on a couple of your statements. Were you aware there was 5 scratches that rollups had to be done for and and furthermore KHSAA wanted to control how those rollups were done. There was also a delay while waiting on KHSAA to make a decision on an issue with 215, so there is your 45 minutes. There was a decision made to scratch the parade in order to keep the tournament on track and not keep those wrestlers, their families and fans there any longer than needed since we knew it was going to be a long day, I don't remember anybody speaking up when asked if anybody had an issue with the decision, as a matter of fact I believe everybody was onboard. The last match was wrestled at 8:07 pm, 14 full 16 man brackets of competitive wrestlers, if I recall everyone seemed onboard to knock this out in one day vice two days but I could be wrong.

I will give credit where credit is due. Great Crossing did do a good job keeping everything going smoothly. As far as the issue at 215 and the roll ups KHSAA should have been there to make those decisions or relinquish control. 

8 minutes ago, tcats said:

I will give credit where credit is due. Great Crossing did do a good job keeping everything going smoothly. As far as the issue at 215 and the roll ups KHSAA should have been there to make those decisions or relinquish control. 

And I totally agree...

1 hour ago, jnv858 said:

So I am curious of your opinion of the other tournament? Or are you echoing your dislike of us being stuck with this semi-state format?

Tcats said it well.

On top all those issues, when the venue doesn’t even really have enough seating it gives a very after thought, minor league, vibe. There were not good views from lower section so that meant standing in balconies if you want to see all the mats.

It’s supposed to be a HIGH SCHOOL state tournament but had the elementary state tournament feel. 
It should be in an arena with proper accommodations for a high school finals.

My opionion: the tournaments should have been  classified as district, regional, and state. To call it a semi state and not even have awards seems like KHSAA doesn’t care about the quality or the experience. The kids deserve better, the fans deserve better and sadly the KHSAA could have done better.

3 hours ago, jnv858 said:

So let me start by saying I agree with most of what you are saying but lets shed a little light on a couple of your statements. Were you aware there was 5 scratches that rollups had to be done for and and furthermore KHSAA wanted to control how those rollups were done. There was also a delay while waiting on KHSAA to make a decision on an issue with 215, so there is your 45 minutes. There was a decision made to scratch the parade in order to keep the tournament on track and not keep those wrestlers, their families and fans there any longer than needed since we knew it was going to be a long day, I don't remember anybody speaking up when asked if anybody had an issue with the decision, as a matter of fact I believe everybody was onboard. The last match was wrestled at 8:07 pm, 14 full 16 man brackets of competitive wrestlers, if I recall everyone seemed onboard to knock this out in one day vice two days but I could be wrong.

From what it sounds like, the hosting schools did a good job keeping the tournaments rolling and no one is faulting the tournament directors. 

5 hours ago, GentleBeard said:

From what it sounds like, the hosting schools did a good job keeping the tournaments rolling and no one is faulting the tournament directors. 

At SS#2 I have a complaint.  This falls on the shoulders of the tournament director.  When you contact him the day before and his best choice for a local place to grab breakfast is First Watch that is an issue.  Jnv858 has a lot to learn about running a tournament.    

54 minutes ago, Chris Duke said:

At SS#2 I have a complaint.  This falls on the shoulders of the tournament director.  When you contact him the day before and his best choice for a local place to grab breakfast is First Watch that is an issue.  Jnv858 has a lot to learn about running a tournament.    

You are absolutely correct Chris, I screwed up on that end...but I think we bought all the food up in Georgetown in order to feed half the state 

I think this is one we just have to learn from.  It is my understanding that the KHSAA basically put semi-state on the calendar as a two day event.  Most coaches to my knowledge pushed to have it in a single day to minimize travel and expense and probably a number of other issues.  Also remember the coaches made this current semi-state format recommendation to the KHSAA (and I thought it was a huge improvement over last year) and to their credit they listened to the feedback and implemented it.  So while it sounds like both UC and GC did a great job running the events, there are some changes that need to be made to make it more fan friendly and probably a better experience for the competitors.  Under this format there will be no awards as the KHSAA views it as the first "round" of the state event.  I agree that is a bit confusing for us wrestling folks, but it might be something we just have to get used to, at least until we have a better format in place.  On the venues, from what I recall not many folks were beating the KHSAA doors down to host these events.  The host likely didn't make anything when all was said and done.  Simply just had the headaches and backaches of running a long wrestling tournament.

When all is said and done, we are finishing up a full wrestling season that will include a great state event this weekend.  If we go into the weekend whining and complaining before we get to GRC, we will likely find plenty more to complain about.  Let's enjoy the last week of the season and if you are so inclined share your constructive thoughts AND IDEAS with coaches and administrators that can hopefully affect some change.  I was at Great Crossing, hopefully doing more good than harm helping jnv, and had a great conversation with our new KHSAA wrestling leader.  He wants to understand our sport better and make positive change where it makes sense. 

35 minutes ago, Ranger123 said:

I think this is one we just have to learn from.  It is my understanding that the KHSAA basically put semi-state on the calendar as a two day event.  Most coaches to my knowledge pushed to have it in a single day to minimize travel and expense and probably a number of other issues.  Also remember the coaches made this current semi-state format recommendation to the KHSAA (and I thought it was a huge improvement over last year) and to their credit they listened to the feedback and implemented it.  So while it sounds like both UC and GC did a great job running the events, there are some changes that need to be made to make it more fan friendly and probably a better experience for the competitors.  Under this format there will be no awards as the KHSAA views it as the first "round" of the state event.  I agree that is a bit confusing for us wrestling folks, but it might be something we just have to get used to, at least until we have a better format in place.  On the venues, from what I recall not many folks were beating the KHSAA doors down to host these events.  The host likely didn't make anything when all was said and done.  Simply just had the headaches and backaches of running a long wrestling tournament.

When all is said and done, we are finishing up a full wrestling season that will include a great state event this weekend.  If we go into the weekend whining and complaining before we get to GRC, we will likely find plenty more to complain about.  Let's enjoy the last week of the season and if you are so inclined share your constructive thoughts AND IDEAS with coaches and administrators that can hopefully affect some change.  I was at Great Crossing, hopefully doing more good than harm helping jnv, and had a great conversation with our new KHSAA wrestling leader.  He wants to understand our sport better and make positive change where it makes sense. 

 

You are absolutely correct. We came out of this weekend with plenty of ideas for improvements going forward. One of which was this really should've been a two day event for a multitude of reasons. The conversations I had with our new KHSAA leader led me to believe he is interested in learning our sport and he as well was looking for ways to better the event, I believe. And Ranger you were absolutely more help than a hindrance.

5 minutes ago, jnv858 said:

You are absolutely correct. We came out of this weekend with plenty of ideas for improvements going forward. One of which was this really should've been a two day event for a multitude of reasons. The conversations I had with our new KHSAA leader led me to believe he is interested in learning our sport and he as well was looking for ways to better the event, I believe. And Ranger you were absolutely more help than a hindrance.

You guys did a fantastic job! I spoke with the commissioner briefly and he seems real positive about the sport. 

On 2/20/2022 at 11:12 PM, Tapout said:

To call it a semi state and not even have awards seems like KHSAA doesn’t care about the quality or the experience.

Here's the thing, the KHSAA didn't call it semi-state.  It was called the first round of the state tournament.  The tournament concludes this weekend, so of course they wouldn't give out awards yet.

Wondering why the the live feed for other state championships, namely NY and KS (we've lived both those places and I have been switching back and forth watching kids we know), have Trackwrestling scoreboard and names in the corner and KY doesn't. 

And 5 minutes after I posted that, the scoreboard appeared. 

This guys not good for Ky wrestling either. Doesn’t promote the sport a belittles high school kids to make him feel powerful. Someone get him a Baby Ruth!  Dude needs to stay off roids!  I think his name is Andrew. 

Did I just watch a kid score 15 points and get stalled out of a match while up by 4 w/ :08 seconds left??

Only in KY

4 hours ago, MLee said:

Did I just watch a kid score 15 points and get stalled out of a match while up by 4 w/ :08 seconds left??

Only in KY

Was it the same official that just decided the 150 pound state championship with a stalling call with 8 seconds to go in the third? That clown needs to be ran out of the gym and never needs to be invited back. 

38 minutes ago, The Deputy said:

Was it the same official that just decided the 150 pound state championship with a stalling call with 8 seconds to go in the third? That clown needs to be ran out of the gym and never needs to be invited back. 

Yes it was (157). Another absolutely terrible call by that ref. Such a shame.

13 minutes ago, MLee said:

Yes it was (157). Another absolutely terrible call by that ref. Such a shame.

I have the match on film if you would like to watch it as well as a beautiful 2022 rule book. If you would like to watch the match together I'll put $50 they didn't call stalling fast enough with the ankle trapped. There is only one spot in the entire rule book that says "after 5 seconds with the knee trapped to the butt It is stalling" he gave him double that. I've never seen worse reffing in my 20 year career of wrestling but to say that match wasn't text book is laughable. 

The reffing was very inconsistent. The refs didn’t call edge stalling all year then at the state tournament they just decide I’ll hit someone for stalling just because. Half the refs didn’t even call it correctly. Kids would be defending takedowns on the edge and get hit for stalling. It was the worst officiating I’ve seen all year. Things need to change big time. 

1 hour ago, The Deputy said:

Was it the same official that just decided the 150 pound state championship with a stalling call with 8 seconds to go in the third? That clown needs to be ran out of the gym and never needs to be invited back. 

I think the stall out was an older guy.  It was hard to see from the stream if the ankle was trapped up by North Hardin in the 157 match.  If it was trapped for more than 5 seconds then that’s the right call according to how it’s normally been called.  Tough call.  
 

16 minutes ago, Elite Training Center KY said:

I have the match on film if you would like to watch it as well as a beautiful 2022 rule book. If you would like to watch the match together I'll put $50 they didn't call stalling fast enough with the ankle trapped. There is only one spot in the entire rule book that says "after 5 seconds with the knee trapped to the butt It is stalling" he gave him double that. I've never seen worse reffing in my 20 year career of wrestling but to say that match wasn't text book is laughable. 

I watched it on Flo. I couldn’t see the ankle trapped from the view they were broadcasting. After watching it again, I see what you’re saying.
 

I still don’t like the call, but it is in the rules. My main issue is bottom man was bellied out not attempting a move either. Isn’t that stalling too, according to the rulebook? 

No dog in the fight, but that match should have been settled in OT.

3 minutes ago, bestmistake33 said:

I think the stall out was an older guy.  It was hard to see from the stream if the ankle was trapped up by North Hardin in the 157 match.  If it was trapped for more than 5 seconds then that’s the right call according to how it’s normally been called.  Tough call.  
 

 

Correct. I was wrong about it being the same ref.

6 hours ago, MLee said:

Did I just watch a kid score 15 points and get stalled out of a match while up by 4 w/ :08 seconds left??

Only in KY

Which match was that? 

31 minutes ago, bestmistake33 said:

I think the stall out was an older guy.  It was hard to see from the stream if the ankle was trapped up by North Hardin in the 157 match.  If it was trapped for more than 5 seconds then that’s the right call according to how it’s normally been called.  Tough call.  
 

 

That's the thing, It isn't a tough call. It is literally the only time in the rule book that has a clear cut amount of time to call stalling.

@MLee As far as guy on bottom being bellied out that is literally the reason It is stalling on top. They can't do anything with their ankle to the butt on bottom. 

4 minutes ago, Elite Training Center KY said:

That's the thing, It isn't a tough call. It is literally the only time in the rule book that has a clear cut amount of time to call stalling.

 

 

@MLee As far as guy on bottom being bellied out that is literally the reason It is stalling on top. They can't do anything with their ankle to the butt on bottom. 

I’m guessing your emotionally tied to this match, which I’m certainly not. I’m trying to be respectful to the winner. He wrestled a great match.

Generally speaking, though. Big matches shouldn’t be won by questionable stalling calls. It’s bad for the sport. I don’t care what’s in the rule book. Nobody should win a state championship bellied out while not moving a muscle while top wrestler is doing all the work. 

Just now, MLee said:

I’m guessing your emotionally tied to this match, which I’m certainly not. I’m trying to be respectful to the winner. He wrestled a great match.

Generally speaking, though. Big matches shouldn’t be won by questionable stalling calls. It’s bad for the sport. I don’t care what’s in the rule book. Nobody should win a state championship bellied out while not moving a muscle while top wrestler is doing all the work. 

I am emotionally tied to the match as I am with a ton of kids in the state. It is also odd to use "questionable" and "in the rule book" in the same sentence the way you did. I get the match didn't end how you would like scoring wise but the rule book was followed to a T and I wish the rest of the matches this tournament had the same treatment. 
 

Since you don't know who I am behind the screen name I don't want you to think I'm hiding behind one.

Nathan Boston

10 minutes ago, Elite Training Center KY said:

I am emotionally tied to the match as I am with a ton of kids in the state. It is also odd to use "questionable" and "in the rule book" in the same sentence the way you did. I get the match didn't end how you would like scoring wise but the rule book was followed to a T and I wish the rest of the matches this tournament had the same treatment. 
 

Since you don't know who I am behind the screen name I don't want you to think I'm hiding behind one.

Nathan Boston

I’ve watched the match multiple times on Flo. Bottom’s leg does come untrapped at some point while he’s on his belly, apparently waiting for OT.

I’d like to see from the rear view, but will take your word for it that it was trapped for 5 seconds or longer. Like I mentioned, he wrestled a great match. Congrats to him and all of his coaches.

I think most spectators would prefer OT to settle it. I also don’t think most state champs would prefer to win that way either. Bad all around, in my opinion. 

19 minutes ago, MLee said:

I’ve watched the match multiple times on Flo. Bottom’s leg does come untrapped at some point while he’s on his belly, apparently waiting for OT.

I’d like to see from the rear view, but will take your word for it that it was trapped for 5 seconds or longer. Like I mentioned, he wrestled a great match. Congrats to him and all of his coaches.

I think most spectators would prefer OT to settle it. I also don’t think most state champs would prefer to win that way either. Bad all around, in my opinion. 

I wasn't going to reply, but I decided to watch It from Flos angle as well to better understand your view. You can CLEARLY see the ankle trapped on camera from 18 seconds left until 8 seconds on the clock. Enough time for not 1 stall call by the book but 2. Kentucky complains about bad refs and when we have one make the right call people are upset we didn't let a ref control a outcome and send It to OT. 

1 minute ago, Elite Training Center KY said:

I wasn't going to reply, but I decided to watch It from Flos angle as well for better understand of your view. You can CLEARLY see the ankle trapped on camera from 18 seconds left until 8 seconds on the clock. Enough time for not 1 stall call by the book but 2. Kentucky complains about bad refs and when we have one make the right call people are upset we didn't let a ref control a outcome and send It to OT. 

KY complains about bad refs because we have some bad refs. You stated that yourself. Have you ever seen a wrestler get disqualified for stalling after scoring 15 points in a 5 minute match w/ 6 seconds left? We did this weekend. Ridiculous 

Again, I don’t question whether it was technically stalling. The rule speaks for itself. I just know there are situations where a no-call is warranted and in my opinion, this was clearly one of those situations.

Congrats to your guy. 

1 minute ago, MLee said:

KY complains about bad refs because we have some bad refs. You stated that yourself. Have you ever seen a wrestler get disqualified for stalling after scoring 15 points in a 5 minute match w/ 6 seconds left? We did this weekend. Ridiculous 

Again, I don’t question whether it was technically stalling. The rule speaks for itself. I just know there are situations where a no-call is warranted and in my opinion, this was clearly one of those situations.

Congrats to your guy. 

That DQ was absolutely insane. I told a couple guys last week at semi-state that you better be atleast 6 points better to guarantee a win with how bad refs are and clearly I was still wrong lol

2 hours ago, DrBaker said:

Which match was that? 

Found it. Sproles vs Armento. Just watched. Pretty bad. 

https://www.flowrestling.org/video/7510735-138-lbs-cons-round-2-nicholas-armentano-great-crossing-vs-hunter-sproles-cooper

9 hours ago, DrBaker said:

Found it. Sproles vs Armento. Just watched. Pretty bad. 

This was a travesty. How do you do that to a kid. Just horrible. 

1 hour ago, 385 said:

https://www.flowrestling.org/video/7510735-138-lbs-cons-round-2-nicholas-armentano-great-crossing-vs-hunter-sproles-cooper

1 hour ago, 385 said:

This was a travesty. How do you do that to a kid. Just horrible. 

I wonder if it’s a coincidence that the official lives in Georgetown and the Great Crossing kid benefited from his poor decision? This guy for years has been pulling this junk and until recently only been invited back to officiate the state tournament. A few years back he was only a table worker at the state tournament because of poor officiating on the regional and state level in years prior. Are we in that bad of shape in Kentucky to bring him back to officiate the post season? What he did to this kid should be investigated and he shouldn’t be allowed to officiate the post season again. 

5 minutes ago, The Deputy said:

 

I wonder if it’s a coincidence that the official lives in Georgetown and the Great Crossing kid benefited from his poor decision? This guy for years has been pulling this junk and until recently only been invited back to officiate the state tournament. A few years back he was only a table worker at the state tournament because of poor officiating on the regional and state level in years prior. Are we in that bad of shape in Kentucky to bring him back to officiate the post season? What he did to this kid should be investigated and he shouldn’t be allowed to officiate the post season again. 

He did call the GC kid on stalling earlier in the match, so it wasn't one sided completely. All the Cooper kid had to do at the end was not run away, he was up by enough points to get taken down, still it was a devastating way to lose.

I hate to complain about refs because it’s so hard to keep them. And it’s a very hard job. Everyone misses things and makes mistakes. But it’s insane to me when they purposely dictate the match. Such as the stall dq and The 157 match with Herron. I know several of the refs did not like his behavior but to make the stall call with 6-8 seconds left is crazy. Both kids had conceded to take it to overtime and they hit one with stalling to prevent that. Right call or not I would rather see that decided by the wrestlers in ot. Ruined one of the best matches of the tournament. 

29 minutes ago, WVhighlander said:

I hate to complain about refs because it’s so hard to keep them. And it’s a very hard job. Everyone misses things and makes mistakes. But it’s insane to me when they purposely dictate the match. Such as the stall dq and The 157 match with Herron. I know several of the refs did not like his behavior but to make the stall call with 6-8 seconds left is crazy. Both kids had conceded to take it to overtime and they hit one with stalling to prevent that. Right call or not I would rather see that decided by the wrestlers in ot. Ruined one of the best matches of the tournament. 

I wasn’t there and the stream and replay makes it hard to see the ankle trap.  To play devils advocate here - are you saying that the ref should have ignored the rule book just to give a good show to the crowd?

If I’m understanding Elite Training KY - he is saying that the only time in the book where stalling is automatic instead of subjective is the 5 second heel/foot pin up.  
 

Ignore the rule book for 10 seconds here but pay intricate attention the other 5:50?  I’m not paying for a 2022 rule book but Nathan Boston seems like he has a good handle on rules.  If it’s in the book As automatic call I don’t think there was a choice.

That being said whoa boy OT would have been wild!!

The reffing was truly atrocious all weekend. Extremely inconsistent. A kid gets DQ’d for stalling after having scored 15 points in 4.5 minutes? Whether or not it was by the book, that 157 pound match should have been decided in OT. There are some things you let kids decide. Especially reading the body language of both kids. They were slow to call takedowns and missed an abundance of calls - not just human error misses which we all agree happens to everyone. There was an unsportsmanlike called for jamming an underhook “too hard”. They called “fleeing the mat” when a bottom guy (who was losing) stood up and was run out of bounds. I’m pretty sure the bottom kid wanted to get out and tie it up instead of running out of bounds. The logic didn’t make sense. These refs either 1) haven’t wrestled or 2) don’t practice their craft in the way it needs to be done in order to perform well in big matches. 
 

One thing my home state does is they rank refs based on surveys at the end of every dual and tournament. Coaches fill them out and data is stored at the Athletic Association. Only the highest rated refs consistently throughout the season are given the opportunity to ref at state - regardless of experience. It has worked out well and doesn’t seem like a big ask. Also, recruiting ex-wrestlers who haven’t been out of the sport for very long could be mutually beneficial. 
 

Not sure what the best answer is, but the last 4 years have been some of the worst state tournaments I’ve ever competed or coached.

9 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

The reffing was truly atrocious all weekend. Extremely inconsistent. A kid gets DQ’d for stalling after having scored 15 points in 4.5 minutes? Whether or not it was by the book, that 157 pound match should have been decided in OT. There are some things you let kids decide. Especially reading the body language of both kids. They were slow to call takedowns and missed an abundance of calls - not just human error misses which we all agree happens to everyone. There was an unsportsmanlike called for jamming an underhook “too hard”. They called “fleeing the mat” when a bottom guy (who was losing) stood up and was run out of bounds. I’m pretty sure the bottom kid wanted to get out and tie it up instead of running out of bounds. The logic didn’t make sense. These refs either 1) haven’t wrestled or 2) don’t practice their craft in the way it needs to be done in order to perform well in big matches. 
 

One thing my home state does is they rank refs based on surveys at the end of every dual and tournament. Coaches fill them out and data is stored at the Athletic Association. Only the highest rated refs consistently throughout the season are given the opportunity to ref at state - regardless of experience. It has worked out well and doesn’t seem like a big ask. Also, recruiting ex-wrestlers who haven’t been out of the sport for very long could be mutually beneficial. 
 

Not sure what the best answer is, but the last 4 years have been some of the worst state tournaments I’ve ever competed or coached.

Do you think the Trinity kid who has his ankle trapped for 8 seconds with 22 seconds to go would agree to settling in OT?

I did fail to see the stalling warning before the point at the end.  When was the warning?

I like the rank refs idea a whole lot.  I think Tennessee does that too.  

18 minutes ago, bestmistake33 said:

I wasn’t there and the stream and replay makes it hard to see the ankle trap.  To play devils advocate here - are you saying that the ref should have ignored the rule book just to give a good show to the crowd?

If I’m understanding Elite Training KY - he is saying that the only time in the book where stalling is automatic instead of subjective is the 5 second heel/foot pin up.  
 

Ignore the rule book for 10 seconds here but pay intricate attention the other 5:50?  I’m not paying for a 2022 rule book but Nathan Boston seems like he has a good handle on rules.  If it’s in the book As automatic call I don’t think there was a choice.

That being said whoa boy OT would have been wild!!

You would be correct. It's hilarious seeing people complain about refs deciding a match then say "well there was only 8 seconds left so maybe let them look past It here." The ankle was trapped with 20 seconds left and let him ride if for 10 which is double the time they had to. In the video you can see the side ref who was standing directly in front of Herrons coaches say watch the trapped ankle and point. Exact time on the clock at this point was :13 seconds.

edit: to answer your question referring to what George was most likely thinking.

I wonder if Trinity is going to make me pay for this fat state ring I'm getting. If It wasn't that It was probably somewhere along the line of which flavor Blizzard he was going to get on the way home.

16 minutes ago, bestmistake33 said:

I wasn’t there and the stream and replay makes it hard to see the ankle trap.  To play devils advocate here - are you saying that the ref should have ignored the rule book just to give a good show to the crowd?

If I’m understanding Elite Training KY - he is saying that the only time in the book where stalling is automatic instead of subjective is the 5 second heel/foot pin up.  
 

Ignore the rule book for 10 seconds here but pay intricate attention the other 5:50?  I’m not paying for a 2022 rule book but Nathan Boston seems like he has a good handle on rules.  If it’s in the book As automatic call I don’t think there was a choice.

That being said whoa boy OT would have been wild!!

I admit, I didn’t read the rules until after Nathan B. addressed it. After reading it, I’m still unclear. The rule book uses a specific situation where the top wrestler “grasps the far ankle and brings to the buttocks in attempting to break down the opponent.”  I assume in a tight waste/far ankle breakdown then hold the ankle to the butt after bottom wresler is broken down.

I think we all agree, that didn’t happen. At no time did I see top grasp the ankle and bring to bottom’s butt. The ankle got trapped as the top wrestler worked up the body for wrist control. It wouldn’t surprise me if top wrestler didn’t even know it was trapped. 

put aside us fellow officials getting bashed i sincerely think most of us did a great job but i also think it was kind of cool to be able to officiate my first state tournament with my father, also my brother first year head coach for owensboro got to coach a kid this year at the state tournament. thought it was pretty cool to see what my father ( 8 time official of the year ) has done with me and my brother to give back to the greatest sport out there. i truly enjoyed this state tournament with great matches all day both days! congratulations to all state champs and placers! 

Absolutely. I don’t want to bash any ref. Maybe one or two lol. But you and your dad are class acts. Your dad is one of my favorites and is good for the sport. I didn’t realize that was your dad till this weekend. Congrats to you. a very special moment. And a side note I though you did a great job. 

3 minutes ago, MLee said:

 

I assume that is the situation Nathan B. referenced. If not, I’m sure he’ll correct me. If it is, I don’t see how that situation and the one we’re referencing are remotely similar.

11 minutes ago, MLee said:

I admit, I didn’t read the rules until after Nathan B. addressed it. After reading it, I’m still unclear. The rule book uses a specific situation where the top wrestler “grasps the far ankle and brings to the buttocks in attempting to break down the opponent.”  I assume in a tight waste/far ankle breakdown then hold the ankle to the butt after bottom wresler is broken down.

I think we all agree, that didn’t happen. At no time did I see top grasp the ankle and bring to bottom’s butt. The ankle got trapped as the top wrestler worked up the body for wrist control. It wouldn’t surprise me if top wrestler didn’t even know it was trapped. 

You don't think a 2 time state champ who was 52-0 on the year and considered one of the pound for pound best in the state by a good bit of people could feel the ankle trapped? I don't know who you are, or your level of wrestling but you 100% can feel if a leg is trapped there. 
 

I don't have the rule book with me at my house but this is from a ref breaking down the rules in an article all about stalling. 

"b. legally holds the heel to the buttocks while the defensive wrestler is broken down on the mat for more than five seconds"

this is the last I am going to say on this match since I'm the only one using facts with my opinion. Kentucky does have a bad ref problem. The report card idea sounds awesome!

2 minutes ago, Elite Training Center KY said:

You don't think a 2 time state champ who was 52-0 on the year and considered one of the pound for pound best in the state by a good bit of people could feel the ankle trapped? I don't know who you are, or your level of wrestling but you 100% can feel if a leg is trapped there. 
 

I don't have the rule book with me at my house but this is from a ref breaking down the rules in an article all about stalling. 

"b. legally holds the heel to the buttocks while the defensive wrestler is broken down on the mat for more than five seconds"

this is the last I am going to say on this match since I'm the only one using facts with my opinion. Kentucky does have a bad ref problem. The report card idea sounds awesome!

The above would be correct. I didn't see your screenshot of the rule until after my post. However It doesn't need to be from a breakdown. The fact that you don't see how those would go together absolutely blows my mind. Good luck to whoever your team is next year!

I’m not saying it’s right or wrong. I’m saying I would rather seen it taken to ot. I think Ferree still wins. He was doing a fantastic job. However this isn’t that cut and dry and is some area for interpretation. At 13 seconds it looks like Herron raises up off the ankle and ferree didn’t attempt to move his ankle down. I don’t know I’m not him. But I do think Herron pushes the lines a lot in his matches and maybe this is just an example of it catching up to him. 

27 minutes ago, Elite Training Center KY said:

The above would be correct. I didn't see your screenshot of the rule until after my post. However It doesn't need to be from a breakdown. The fact that you don't see how those would go together absolutely blows my mind. Good luck to whoever your team is nex

Who determined it doesn’t need to be from a breakdown? The situations in the rule book are very specific by design..so they’re not misinterpreted. For instance, stalling is different when your a top vs a bottom wrestler. It’s different in OT than during regulation. It’s different when you’re on the line vs being in the center of the mat.

My point is, you shouldn’t use 2 different scenarios and say the rules should be applied the same. How that ankle got trapped to his butt is ENTIRELY different than the situation in the rule book you referenced. 

I think you can make a case that both N Boston and M Lee are right.  You may think the refs may have made what they interpret is the right call based on their interpretation of that particular rule. However, you can also think the refs misinterpreted the rule and shouldn't have called it. 

To me that's a bad call for a couple of reasons.  First, even the rule Nathan Boston is referencing to justify the call is open to subjectivity.  It doesn't appear at all that the top wrestler "grasps the heel".  The heel ended up pinned against the butt from a scramble, not by the top wrestler "grasping" it.  Also, the intent of any stalling rule should be to simply promote action and to punish those who aren't actively trying to better their position.  From the video, it appears the top wrestler is actively wrestling and the bottom wrestler appears to be doing little to get out at the time the call was made. 

Even if you believe the rule is clearly defined, which in this case I would argue it is not based on the aforementioned point, the ref still has the choice to call it or not.  No one wants to see a state title determined by the refs unless it is clearly obvious.  I doubt anyone would have been upset if they just let them go to overtime.  

One of my best friends growing up, Tom Storms, was a 2 time defending state champ and got stalled out in the finals his senior year.  As much as I hated it for him, he was clearly stalling/backing up after being warned many times prior.   Its hard to tell from this video, but it doesn't appear the refs gave any warning prior to making the call.  Had that happened, I might feel a little different.  

A friend of mine in Western KY was at the tournament and asked me to jump on here and provide my two cents on the two matches being discussed.  I've been an official in West Virginia and Virginia for the last 14 years.  For the last 4 years, I've been an evaluator of other officials in my area (only in VA not WV).  I'm by no means the NFHS, but I do know a great bit when it comes to NFHS Wrestling Rules.  What I hope to do below is give a clean and clear view of how would I would evaluate each man specifically related to the rule book.

Couple of disclaimers before I give my critique of each match:

• I know a couple of KY refs but use to know a lot more.
• I do not know either of the head officials in question in these matches.
• I have no vested or rooting interest in these matches.
• I watched on Flo and wasn't there in person.
• I absolutely do not want to get involved with the overall state of "quality" of officials
• I absolutely do not want to get into the should have let it settle in OT.

138 pound conso 2nd round:

General observations:

• Head official seemed to have good positioning and was moving around the mat well.
• Was quick to be in position to see things.
• Made good on the line calls.
• Did not effectively utilize assistant official (this is an issue in WV and VA too)

Scoring observations:

• I thought the first stalling warning on red shouldn't have been called.  Red was up 4-2 and had shown that he was the aggressor by securing 2 takedowns to that point
• Second stalling call (resulting in one point penalty) was a little quick, but I don't have that much of an issue here.  Stalling Is subjective in these situations
• The third (resulting in one point penalty) and fourth (resulting in two point penalty) stalling calls were there and the right call.

• At this point there was misapplication of rule.  In the 2022 NFHS Wrestling Rule book, when the 2pt (fourth) stalling call is made, match shall be stopped and the opponent will have choice of position on restart.
  • I saw the head official direct the green wrestler that he was down after stoppage, but I did not see where he asked/informed green that it was his choice of position.  Nor did I see the official direct the scorers table that the wrestler chose down.  Assuming that they were using track for scoring, track would have automatically prompted for position choice.  The scorer likely saw that green was down so he clicked down to keep moving.
  • Again - watching on flow.  Maybe he did ask and maybe green did say down - but the signs don't point to that.
• The match restarts and the fifth (DQ stalling call) was borderline.  He was circling and backing up.  He wasn't going directly backwards.  I personally would not have made this call, but also don't hate the call.
• As soon as the fifth stalling is called the match is terminated. 

• Had the red wrestler remained on the mat and the red coach approached and called out the misapplication of the rule, bad time would have been re-wrestled starting at the 21 second mark.  Any points, penalties, or injury time that occurred during bad time would be voided.  Choice would be given, recorded, and wrestling would begin.  Bad time can be called to re-wrestle as long as the offended wrestler and/or coach remains on/in the mat area and requests the bad time.  I did not see that request made.
• While I do not think that red coaches realized that DQ for stalling was a thing, I certainly think the strategy would have changed if bad time was re-wrestled as it should have been.

157 pound finals match

General observations:

• Head official moved around the mat well but would have liked him to be back a bit more to be able to survey all of the action.  Sometimes the bigger the wrestlers the easier it is to see further away than up close.
• Good utilization of assistant on the first takedown.  My assumption is he wanted to confer with assistant on whether the period ended before takedown was secured but that's just a guess.
• Missed headgear throw at conclusion of match.

Scoring observations:

• Takedown at end of first was a good takedown.  I would have awarded points first then conferred with my assistant to confirm my call with timing rather than wait and award later.  This is being super critical and there isn't really anything clearly defined in the rulebook for this situation.
• Good on the line reversal call in period 2.  Those are hard to see supporting points when guys are moving that fast.
• Stalling warning on red in period 2 was good and clean. 
  • Although rule book doesn't explicitly state 5 seconds for a mat return, it is generally and widely accepted that 5 seconds is the timing for a mat return stalling call.  I had anywhere from 5-7 seconds depending on when you start your count.  Ok call in my book.
• Probably should have hit green for stalling towards the end of period 2.  Action wasn't forward by green.
• Good "let it burn" for takedown by red in third period.  Some guys would have hit stalemate before that action finished.
• Could have been stalling on red at 30 second mark for dragging opponent out of bounds on his feet.  Ok with no call there.
• After scramble completes at 20 seconds left in the third, red has greens heel to the buttock while the defensive wrestler is broken down for 10 seconds (18 second mark to 8 second mark).  Good stall call and by the book.
  • Rule 5-24 Art 4-B - It is stalling when the contestant in the advantage position legally holds the hell to the buttocks while the defensive wrestler is broken down on the mat for more than five seconds.
  • Conversation with red coach at the table seemed strange.  At one point head official looks at green corner.  Not sure what was going on there.
• Green probably should have been hit for stalling a little sooner out of neutral, but I don't think it was going to be called twice in 8 seconds here.

How could the 150 match get stalled out, when this match had 1 stall point awarded when the bottom wrestler stayed in a ball and on his knees for the entire 3rd period? Also the merkle in the 1st period was not awarded a takedown. This was in the 215 quarterfinals. 

https://www.flowrestling.org/events/7334418-2022-khsaa-ky-state-championships/videos?playing=7503476&limit=60

Ok Tbag, what are you saying about the the match.

8 minutes ago, Rocko240b said:

Ok Tbag, what are you saying about the the match.

Pretty simple missed takedown in 1st is a 4 point swing. One stall point is unacceptable when a kid doesn't do anything to advance his position to score for a whole period. When other matches are decided by stall calls, why the inconsistencies? Am I bitter? Yes. Am I slightly biased? Yes. The matches should be decided by wrestlers wrestling, not wrestlers laying still on a mat for 2 minutes. 

Only thing pretty simple is you humble brag on these forums all year, then make excuses when you lose.

8 minutes ago, Tbagnky said:

Pretty simple missed takedown in 1st is a 4 point swing. One stall point is unacceptable when a kid doesn't do anything to advance his position to score for a whole period. When other matches are decided by stall calls, why the inconsistencies? Am I bitter? Yes. Am I slightly biased? Yes. The matches should be decided by wrestlers wrestling, not wrestlers laying still on a mat for 2 

This thread was about inconsistent refereeing. I just pointed out another example. No excuses. As far as "humble bragging" goes, everything I have said on this forum was genuine. I am proud of my sons and all they have accomplished in this sport. I didn't lose anything. I have won many friends and extended family from their time competing on the mat.. You should be proud of Rocky as well. He did what he had to do to win and did so at a high level. Congratulations to him!

Look I will tell you all right now.... If you guys want to give reffing a try I promise you will get humbled pretty quickly. You may "know" the rule book but I can promise you that you don't know every detail to every situation. I have 22 years of experience in this sport and learned very quickly toss it out the window. It is totally different in the heat of the moment. Did I get ripped some yes, I did. Did I miss calls, yes I did. Did I have a few bad calls, yes I did. But that's all apart of it. No one will make every call correctly. We strive too, but the potential for human error is there. That's apart of it. Will we still rip officials? Probably so, that goes on for years. But until Elon Musk develops a robotic referee why not try to help eliminate the issues and be apart of a solution. 

Talking behind the keyboard is one thing... Actually doing it is another. I can tell you that officials are needed! Instead of complaining about it, get online next fall and sign up. I know they will appreciate the extra help. It will save some from driving 4 hours to a tourney and going back. 

What are the qualifications to be a ref in Kentucky?

6 hours ago, GentleBeard said:

What are the qualifications to be a ref in Kentucky?

https://khsaa.org/new_application/

Your books will be mailed to  you.  Pass the test when it opens and your licensed.  Next step is joining the KWOA and being assigned to your local association as well as having a mentor assigned to you.  KWOA has a training tournament in the fall, winter and spring for new officials.

The above link is only to officiate high school with the KHSAA.  High school wrestlers are encouraged to officiate youth events to get additional mat time.

.

I will split the difference on the ref topic. 
 

One side we have some great officials in Ky. And like has been mentioned they all make mistakes but we also make many mistakes as coaches. We have to separate a call we don’t like with thinking someone is a bad official. The best example I can think of and I’ve said this multiple times. Jason Sedoris called the state finals match with Spencer v Thomas. While I disagreed with the call on the last second sequence that did not change my opinion of Jason being one of the best officials in the state. I would be perfectly happy to have him officiate any state finals matches for any of my kids. 
 

But on the other side we have to create a better evaluation system because some guys have no business being there. And there has to be a process where we can pivot in the moment and give guys a break if they are having a bad day. 

1 hour ago, Ranger123 said:

I will split the difference on the ref topic. 
 

One side we have some great officials in Ky. And like has been mentioned they all make mistakes but we also make many mistakes as coaches. We have to separate a call we don’t like with thinking someone is a bad official. The best example I can think of and I’ve said this multiple times. Jason Sedoris called the state finals match with Spencer v Thomas. While I disagreed with the call on the last second sequence that did not change my opinion of Jason being one of the best officials in the state. I would be perfectly happy to have him officiate any state finals matches for any of my kids. 
 

But on the other side we have to create a better evaluation system because some guys have no business being there. And there has to be a process where we can pivot in the moment and give guys a break if they are having a bad day. 

I do agree we need some sort of eval system but that's a good way to get things going forward but if you take out some of the guys who have no business in the game then some areas of the state have 1-2 refs to cover 1 entire region.

Someone I suggest, is more assistant coaches or lay coaches get their certification. I know we did it and will continue to pay for our coaches to get certified moving forward. For us to get to a better situation why not some of the teams with 8 coaches get them certified to help with the problems. 

I should add no business at state

I will also add that most of the guys on the floor this weekend are very good officials that deserved to be there. Doesn’t mean they were perfect or I didn’t disagree with a call or two. But we have good officials. We just need to support them and get the right guys there. 

I will agree with Ranger on the above. The one person that I will say I saw improve throughout the year a TON was Blake. We got into (looking back) a hilarious exchange at a dual over a call that I didn't agree with. He then took a team point which looking back was almost worth the joking comment I made. The one thing he did do great at state was always moving to be in position. I think that is one big area of concern overall with refs. Also in about 5 different matches I saw the same young ref call "two takedown" after guys sat in a position that DID NOT CHANGE for about 20 seconds. I would call the guy out by name if I knew it because I think being straight forward is the only way to ever improve. 

Does anybody know how the team points work now ? Are the advancement points  worth the same amount as the 32 Man brackets were ? Union score of 200 plus would be even more impressive with less matches than years past 

Same as always. 

2 pts advancement in Championship 

1pt advancement in Consolation

Bonus points 

2 for pin dQ ect

1 1/2 for Tech

1/2 for major

and placement points. 

1st 16

2nd 12

3rd 9

4th 7

5th 5

6th 3

7th 2

8th 1

24 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

Same as always. 

2 pts advancement in Championship 

1pt advancement in Consolation

Bonus points 

2 for pin dQ ect

1 1/2 for Tech

1/2 for major

and placement points. 

1st 16

2nd 12

3rd 9

4th 7

5th 5

6th 3

7th 2

8th 1

Thanks for the info. So it wouldn’t matter if it were a 32 or 16 man bracket? They both have the chance to score the same amount of points ?

1 hour ago, Elite Training Center KY said:

I will agree with Ranger on the above. The one person that I will say I saw improve throughout the year a TON was Blake. We got into (looking back) a hilarious exchange at a dual over a call that I didn't agree with. He then took a team point which looking back was almost worth the joking comment I made. The one thing he did do great at state was always moving to be in position. I think that is one big area of concern overall with refs. Also in about 5 different matches I saw the same young ref call "two takedown" after guys sat in a position that DID NOT CHANGE for about 20 seconds. I would call the guy out by name if I knew it because I think being straight forward is the only way to ever improve. 

I couldn’t imagine a Boston getting into it with an official…. Haha

1 minute ago, Wcourtney said:

I couldn’t imagine a Boston getting into it with an official…. Haha

One thing I will always do is fight for my guys lol 

On 2/27/2022 at 11:00 AM, The Deputy said:

 

I wonder if it’s a coincidence that the official lives in Georgetown and the Great Crossing kid benefited from his poor decision? This guy for years has been pulling this junk and until recently only been invited back to officiate the state tournament. A few years back he was only a table worker at the state tournament because of poor officiating on the regional and state level in years prior. Are we in that bad of shape in Kentucky to bring him back to officiate the post season? What he did to this kid should be investigated and he shouldn’t be allowed to officiate the post season again. 

There are 86 liscensed officials in the WHOLE state of KY. So please do myself and all other officials a favor and get your liscense and join us on the mat since you are a rules expert! Look forward to having you join our ranks and becoming a member of the KWOA. Work your way up the ranks and become a state championship official yourself. 

Thanks

On 2/27/2022 at 11:48 AM, GentleBeard said:

The reffing was truly atrocious all weekend. Extremely inconsistent. A kid gets DQ’d for stalling after having scored 15 points in 4.5 minutes? Whether or not it was by the book, that 157 pound match should have been decided in OT. There are some things you let kids decide. Especially reading the body language of both kids. They were slow to call takedowns and missed an abundance of calls - not just human error misses which we all agree happens to everyone. There was an unsportsmanlike called for jamming an underhook “too hard”. They called “fleeing the mat” when a bottom guy (who was losing) stood up and was run out of bounds. I’m pretty sure the bottom kid wanted to get out and tie it up instead of running out of bounds. The logic didn’t make sense. These refs either 1) haven’t wrestled or 2) don’t practice their craft in the way it needs to be done in order to perform well in big matches. 
 

One thing my home state does is they rank refs based on surveys at the end of every dual and tournament. Coaches fill them out and data is stored at the Athletic Association. Only the highest rated refs consistently throughout the season are given the opportunity to ref at state - regardless of experience. It has worked out well and doesn’t seem like a big ask. Also, recruiting ex-wrestlers who haven’t been out of the sport for very long could be mutually beneficial. 
 

Not sure what the best answer is, but the last 4 years have been some of the worst state tournaments I’ve ever competed or coached.

I like your idea of the rankings. The issue we have with recruiting is that no ones to do it anymore. They see the way fans and coaches treat new refs and they would rather not deal with that. In the past years we get a few recent grads for a season and the. They go become a coach. Look at most programs and see how many coaches are in there ranks between youth, middle school, high school, girls...there are a lot of coaches out there at these levels that have been officials for a season or 2. They would rather coach than be belittled by coaches or patents for a low wage. 

It is growing pains.  To grow the sport we need more middle and Youth programs.  Girls wrestling has been increasing.  All of these programs need coaches.  There is not enough to go around.  >

Many Youth and Middle school coaches are Dads.  These Dads move on when their kids move on and then a coach needs to be replaced.  

More kids go to college with little time to referee when they also have a full or part time job.

I don't know the answer, but this is the situation we are in now. 

The stalling situation is the same every year.  They don't call the quick stall all year then call it in the post season.  (Has been happening in the 35+ years I have been around)

The Herron call was wrong only in that it was not called sooner.  I was sitting behind the action and noticed it right away, the assistant referee noticed it and told the head official then he started counting.  However it looked like he released the foot prior to the 5 count but Trinity did not straighten his leg.  (Just my 2 cents on it) Tough decision to make.  

18 minutes ago, Wrestling247365 said:

I like your idea of the rankings.

I know many many years ago there use to be a grade card the head coach could fill out after a competition.  I don't think coaches used it much, unless they had a complaint, so they got rid of it. This was way back when Don Salyers was still the head official. 

Consistency is what is needed most. I was only at Semi state 2 but saw Several matches were one referee would not call stalling when the bottom Man stood up and was not returned to the mat and then a referee on the next mat over would call it.  very confusing for the kids. Also watching a referee call pins at the “state tournament”  while standing up and tilting his head so he can kind of see what is going on is very disturbing. I see that general lack of effort as an insult to all the kids hard work and the sport itself.

I think there are very simple solutions to these issues regarding refs. However, there needs to be a common ground and coaches and refs have to meet in the middle. Coaches should, and most likely will, be more patient with refs if they know refs are working hard and communicating better.
 

1) Maybe have a coaches meeting at the state tournament like we do before every other tournament to clear up any hazy questions.

2) Maybe region refs could show up to their region coaches meetings before the season and not just at the state coaches meeting in September. This would allow each region to at least meet those refs outside of intense situations/competitions.

3) Have a 5 question survey that holds refs accountable by the coaches, by example.

4) I don’t know if there’s a monetary incentive to ref at state, but if refs have high enough or consistent enough rankings throughout the season, there should be. 

Just some ideas. But I don’t want to be that guy that complains without having solutions to throw at the wall to see what sticks.

33 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

I think there are very simple solutions to these issues regarding refs. However, there needs to be a common ground and coaches and refs have to meet in the middle. Coaches should, and most likely will, be more patient with refs if they know refs are working hard and communicating better.
 

1) Maybe have a coaches meeting at the state tournament like we do before every other tournament to clear up any hazy questions.

2) Maybe region refs could show up to their region coaches meetings before the season and not just at the state coaches meeting in September. This would allow each region to at least meet those refs outside of intense situations/competitions.

3) Have a 5 question survey that holds refs accountable by the coaches, by example.

4) I don’t know if there’s a monetary incentive to ref at state, but if refs have high enough or consistent enough rankings throughout the season, there should be. 

Just some ideas. But I don’t want to be that guy that complains without having solutions to throw at the wall to see what sticks.

Accountability is important. However, it always seems to be from the standpoint of negativity. As in, "let's catch the ref doing something wrong" Nobody points out the literally thousands of calls a ref gets right during the course of a tournament. It's always about the few they get wrong (many of which aren't wrong, or are at least very subjective). And even if a ref gets 99.9 percent of the calls right, he's a complete  turd for getting one wrong. When talking about ref's performance it's always about wanting to hammer them for a mistake. The word accountability is never used positively, or ever in regards to the behavior of parents, coaches or wrestlers towards officials. Perfection is demanded from refs, but not from anybody else. And here's the problem with survey's for coaches to evaluate ref's performance.....coaches aren't always right either, and many only see things with a biased view towards their wrestler. 

34 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

Accountability is important. However, it always seems to be from the standpoint of negativity. As in, "let's catch the ref doing something wrong" Nobody points out the literally thousands of calls a ref gets right during the course of a tournament. It's always about the few they get wrong (many of which aren't wrong, or are at least very subjective). And even if a ref gets 99.9 percent of the calls right, he's a complete  turd for getting one wrong. When talking about ref's performance it's always about wanting to hammer them for a mistake. The word accountability is never used positively, or ever in regards to the behavior of parents, coaches or wrestlers towards officials. Perfection is demanded from refs, but not from anybody else. And here's the problem with survey's for coaches to evaluate ref's performance.....coaches aren't always right either, and many only see things with a biased view towards their wrestler. 

Everything about this is spot on.

Some of the coaches out there are flat out abusive towards refs.  I’m not just talking wrestling.  
The spectators aren’t much better. My son who did go to watch state told me that a woman from North Hardin’s group of spectators was screaming F bombs and wishing death on the official in the 157 match.  What the world!?

I don’t think there is a great answer for the ref situation.  There are always going to be spectators and even coaches who don’t know the rules and are going to blow gaskets over officials. Maybe consistency is the best answer or hope we can get?

1 hour ago, rjs4470 said:

Accountability is important. However, it always seems to be from the standpoint of negativity. As in, "let's catch the ref doing something wrong" Nobody points out the literally thousands of calls a ref gets right during the course of a tournament. It's always about the few they get wrong (many of which aren't wrong, or are at least very subjective). And even if a ref gets 99.9 percent of the calls right, he's a complete  turd for getting one wrong. When talking about ref's performance it's always about wanting to hammer them for a mistake. The word accountability is never used positively, or ever in regards to the behavior of parents, coaches or wrestlers towards officials. Perfection is demanded from refs, but not from anybody else. And here's the problem with survey's for coaches to evaluate ref's performance.....coaches aren't always right either, and many only see things with a biased view towards their wrestler. 

1 hour ago, rjs4470 said:

Accountability is important. However, it always seems to be from the standpoint of negativity. As in, "let's catch the ref doing something wrong" Nobody points out the literally thousands of calls a ref gets right during the course of a tournament. It's always about the few they get wrong (many of which aren't wrong, or are at least very subjective). And even if a ref gets 99.9 percent of the calls right, he's a complete  turd for getting one wrong. When talking about ref's performance it's always about wanting to hammer them for a mistake. The word accountability is never used positively, or ever in regards to the behavior of parents, coaches or wrestlers towards officials. Perfection is demanded from refs, but not from anybody else. And here's the problem with survey's for coaches to evaluate ref's performance.....coaches aren't always right either, and many only see things with a biased view towards their wrestler. 

Those that think accountability is negative probably need to adjust their perspective. I’ve had to check myself as a coach. It’s not a bad thing. It’s a desire to be better. Rating systems should be objective and unbiased towards coaches as well as refs. That’s why I think there needs to be a give and take. The current situation isn’t working for anyone. I just think we all need to be solutions oriented rather than divisive. I can’t stand whining (complaining without solutions). There’s an answer to every problem. 

8 hours ago, Wrestling247365 said:

There are 86 liscensed officials in the WHOLE state of KY. So please do myself and all other officials a favor and get your liscense and join us on the mat since you are a rules expert! Look forward to having you join our ranks and becoming a member of the KWOA. Work your way up the ranks and become a state championship official yourself. 

 

Thanks

We don’t need all 86 at the state tournament. Just the best 10-12. How do they determine which ones have the privilege of reffing the state tournament? Is there currently criteria to determine that? When I don’t notice a ref in a match, that’s usually a good thing. In any event, I’m trying to figure out how to come to a solution to solve the majority of the issues and the divisiveness between coaches and refs. Bitching about the past achieves nothing….on both sides.

9 hours ago, GentleBeard said:

 

Those that think accountability is negative probably need to adjust their perspective. I’ve had to check myself as a coach. It’s not a bad thing. It’s a desire to be better. Rating systems should be objective and unbiased towards coaches as well as refs. That’s why I think there needs to be a give and take. The current situation isn’t working for anyone. I just think we all need to be solutions oriented rather than divisive. I can’t stand whining (complaining without solutions). There’s an answer to every problem. 

I'm not saying accountability is a problem, or is in itself negative. My only point is I'm not necessarily certain referees accountability should fall in the hands of coaches. I get coaches having the ability to scratch an official they've had a problem with (although with so few refs, you can't scratch all of them). But I've seen coaches make big stinks about a call that was correct because they themselves didn't understand the rule/see it correctly. I've been there myself....there have been plenty of times I've gone back and watched film and realized I was the one who got it wrong. I guess what it comes down to is I'm not a fan of coaches holding that many of the cards in evaluating officials, especially right after an event when things are still heated. Just because you're a coach, doesn't mean you are qualified to be judging/rating an official. And I've never seen a perfect official (or coach, or player, or spectator) at any level, and focusing and being hyper critical on every single mistake, while ignoring the 99.99% of them correct is not going to do anything to attract people to the job. No matter how much accountability you have, they still aren't going to get every call right. 

I don't mean to make this sound like we need to feel sorry for the officials, or that it's ok when they screw up. Personally, I don't feel like they screw up nearly as much as many think they do. But I also know there is an evaluation system, and I've seen many refs get reviewed by their assignors. And I think they are aware of who the good officials are, and I've seen them counsel officials who need to improve. So I'm not sure we need heightened accountability, nor do we need to grind officials over every call. 

Here's the big issue as I see it, and I don't have a solution, so sorry if I'm whining ;-). No accountability system is going to be effective until we have more officials. As it stands, the truly bad officials CAN'T be held accountable, because there isn't enough officials. The few who aren't so good, have to keep working because we need them. I really believe the accountability system that is in place would work just fine if we could just stop giving the less proficient officials so many jobs. That being said, there are WAY more good officials than bad, and I can only think that tightening accountability on all officials, and making a hard job even harder, will likely chase more of the good guys away. The ultimate solution to this problem starts with getting more guys and gals into stripes, not holding officials feet to the fire for every call they make.

11 hours ago, rjs4470 said:

Accountability is important. However, it always seems to be from the standpoint of negativity. As in, "let's catch the ref doing something wrong" Nobody points out the literally thousands of calls a ref gets right during the course of a tournament. It's always about the few they get wrong (many of which aren't wrong, or are at least very subjective). And even if a ref gets 99.9 percent of the calls right, he's a complete  turd for getting one wrong. When talking about ref's performance it's always about wanting to hammer them for a mistake. The word accountability is never used positively, or ever in regards to the behavior of parents, coaches or wrestlers towards officials. Perfection is demanded from refs, but not from anybody else. And here's the problem with survey's for coaches to evaluate ref's performance.....coaches aren't always right either, and many only see things with a biased view towards their wrestler. 

We need a way to evaluate officials after every competition.  Often when we compete in other states the officials are giving out their 'number' so coaches can evaluate them.  The officials with the highest ratings through the year are selected for the post season/state tournament.  This is pretty common sense in my opinion.  

If you take pride in being an official I imagine you would also like to be selected to work the state tournament.  A rating process would create competition.  Competition incentives people to improve.  If you don't improve you don't get selected.  How is this difficult to understand? 

Perfection is not demanded from officials.  Competency is demanded from officials during the post season.  Because there is no evaluation officials are an untouchable class in the KY wrestling community and have zero incentive to improve outside of their own intrinsic motivation. If you have been officiating for 10, 20, 30 years there probably isn't a whole lot of motivation to improve your skills.  This is how we get incompetent officials at the state tournament. eh hem, stalling, stalling, stalling, stalling, stalling, dq! 

Your reasoning is flawed regarding coaches evaluating officials.  Lets say an official works 6 tournaments and 6 duals through the season(I know most are doing much more especially if you include middle school/youth).  Lets say there is an average of 10 teams across those tournaments and only 2 teams per dual meet. That's 72 evaluations during the season.  If we don't incentivize/penalize coaches for doing/not doing the evaluations maybe we get 75% submitted.  So on the low end we would have 54 evaluations to build an aggregate. Doing this would create a pretty clear picture of an officials competency. There will be outliers for sure. Especially if a coach is pissed off about a match, but 30 pissed off coaches doing evaluations is not an anomaly, it is a pattern. 

If I am an official who is not selected for post season and/or is not happy with my ranking I am probably going to do some self reflection and put more effort into improving my skills, mechanics, understanding of the rules, wrestling positions, etc. 

I am not even sure the KHSAA would need to be involved. I think it is possible for the official's association to do this on their own.  Create a google form specific to each official.  All submissions for that official will be aggregated and the data/comments used to rank them.  It could be more intricate than this, but I just thought of the most low effort/cost effective way to do it.  

Coaches talk about officials.  We have some good ones for sure and there are some young officials I think have real promise, but there are a few that are SOOOOOOO bad they diminish our sport's credibility and that is a problem we need to address. 

1 hour ago, rjs4470 said:

But I also know there is an evaluation system, and I've seen many refs get reviewed by their assignors. And I think they are aware of who the good officials are, and I've seen them counsel officials who need to improve. So I'm not sure we need heightened accountability, nor do we need to grind officials over every call.  

Hard to evaluate your buddies/peers effectively.  I am not saying assignors shouldn't be a part of the process, but they shouldn't be the only form of evaluating officials either.  I was talking to my high school coach yesterday and he was pretty blown away that we don't have a way to evaluate officials. We are way behind the state he coaches in, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing everything we can to elevate the level of wrestling here.  

32 minutes ago, GooglyMoogly said:

We need a way to evaluate officials after every competition.  Often when we compete in other states the officials are giving out their 'number' so coaches can evaluate them.  The officials with the highest ratings through the year are selected for the post season/state tournament.  This is pretty common sense in my opinion.  

If you take pride in being an official I imagine you would also like to be selected to work the state tournament.  A rating process would create competition.  Competition incentives people to improve.  If you don't improve you don't get selected.  How is this difficult to understand? 

Perfection is not demanded from officials.  Competency is demanded from officials during the post season.  Because there is no evaluation officials are an untouchable class in the KY wrestling community and have zero incentive to improve outside of their own intrinsic motivation. If you have been officiating for 10, 20, 30 years there probably isn't a whole lot of motivation to improve your skills.  This is how we get incompetent officials at the state tournament. eh hem, stalling, stalling, stalling, stalling, stalling, dq! 

Your reasoning is flawed regarding coaches evaluating officials.  Lets say an official works 6 tournaments and 6 duals through the season(I know most are doing much more especially if you include middle school/youth).  Lets say there is an average of 10 teams across those tournaments and only 2 teams per dual meet. That's 72 evaluations during the season.  If we don't incentivize/penalize coaches for doing/not doing the evaluations maybe we get 75% submitted.  So on the low end we would have 54 evaluations to build an aggregate. Doing this would create a pretty clear picture of an officials competency. There will be outliers for sure. Especially if a coach is pissed off about a match, but 30 pissed off coaches doing evaluations is not an anomaly, it is a pattern. 

If I am an official who is not selected for post season and/or is not happy with my ranking I am probably going to do some self reflection and put more effort into improving my skills, mechanics, understanding of the rules, wrestling positions, etc. 

I am not even sure the KHSAA would need to be involved. I think it is possible for the official's association to do this on their own.  Create a google form specific to each official.  All submissions for that official will be aggregated and the data/comments used to rank them.  It could be more intricate than this, but I just thought of the most low effort/cost effective way to do it.  

Coaches talk about officials.  We have some good ones for sure and there are some young officials I think have real promise, but there are a few that are SOOOOOOO bad they diminish our sport's credibility and that is a problem we need to address. 

I don't disagree that ref's should be evaluated. I just don't think coaches should be doing it. I hear you when you say competency is demanded rather than perfection. And in theory that's the way it should be. In real life though, if a ref isn't perfect (or what someone defines as perfect), they get blasted. And putting refs under a microscope, and being reviewed by the same coaches that they make rulings against, and possibly punish for bad behavior, after every single event, is not going to attract or keep people officiating. Just because someone is a coach, does not mean they are qualified to evaluate an official.

All the accountability in the world doesn't mean a thing if there aren't enough officials out there to keep the ones who aren't so good from needing to work so much. That's where the solution needs to start. And believe me, as a guy who coaches 3 different sports at the high school level, this is not just a wrestling issue. 

One thing I have made an effort to do recently (the last couple years) and did a LOT this year is point out the positives when I saw an official do really well both personally as well as to the assignors. It’s not kissing their butts. It’s being respectful and balancing out all of the negativity that they receive every single week with at least some positive feedback. It is also a welcome change for those making the post season decisions to hear who is doing well. And what I found is that a lot of the guys who I think did a great job this season get rewarded for their efforts. 
 

Respectful communication is the key. I know as coaches we feel like we need to yell and scream at the official to be heard. I’ve done it. Pretty sure I did it to Dennison in the 144 conso semi match this weekend. But we have to realize that doesn’t help anything. When we approach the ref with some level of sanity and ask questions instead of make accusations it generally benefits both parties. Back to Sedoris, he does a great job of communicating what he saw when making his call. Makes it much easier to accept the call I may not agree with and consider what I may not have seem. Case in point 144 3rd place match with Sedoris officiating. Late in the match my kid goes for a headlock and gets taken down as the wrestlers go off the mat. I know I saw the other kids right foot hit out. He calls 2. I question the call and point out that the kids foot was out and he can confirm with the assistant ref who was in position to see it. He calmly said yes it was out but red had one point in and green had one point in. Something I didn’t see or even consider. 

8 minutes ago, GooglyMoogly said:

Hard to evaluate your buddies/peers effectively.  I am not saying assignors shouldn't be a part of the process, but they shouldn't be the only form of evaluating officials either.  I was talking to my high school coach yesterday and he was pretty blown away that we don't have a way to evaluate officials. We are way behind the state he coaches in, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing everything we can to elevate the level of wrestling here.  

Agreed. But it's also hard to objectively evaluate someone you're mad at for making a call that you think is wrong, especially in the heat of the moment. And the reality is, that call may have actually been right. Plus evaluating someone's performance is a skill, and not something everyone can be effective at doing. How do you insure there are standards in place, and that they are followed? These aren't insurmountable issues, but if coaches suddenly hold so much weight in a ref's evaluation, it could start influencing the way they call matches. You're certainly going to call matches differently if you know your ability to work future events is based on a coaches opinion of you. 

Doing evaluations is hard. Companies spend lots of money, training and time to make sure they are done correctly at the corporate level.  And to do them well, also takes time and effort. I'm not sure that adding this to a coaches already full plate is the most effective way to solve the problem. 

36 minutes ago, Ranger123 said:

One thing I have made an effort to do recently (the last couple years) and did a LOT this year is point out the positives when I saw an official do really well both personally as well as to the assignors. It’s not kissing their butts. It’s being respectful and balancing out all of the negativity that they receive every single week with at least some positive feedback. It is also a welcome change for those making the post season decisions to hear who is doing well. And what I found is that a lot of the guys who I think did a great job this season get rewarded for their efforts. 
 

Respectful communication is the key. I know as coaches we feel like we need to yell and scream at the official to be heard. I’ve done it. Pretty sure I did it to Dennison in the 144 conso semi match this weekend. But we have to realize that doesn’t help anything. When we approach the ref with some level of sanity and ask questions instead of make accusations it generally benefits both parties.

Ranger you have hit the nail on the head.  As MaMa always said you catch more bees with honey.  

I have seen a change in the coaching style these last 5-10 years.  Many of the coaches ride the official all match long, much like many basketball coaches do (I've heard it called "working the officail").   

Wrestling is one of the last sports that takes sportsmanship to a higher level, and rightfully so.  This is an in your face sport, one on one, trying to rip the others head off battle.  That is why we need the sportsmanship aspect.  In the >>>>> many years I have been here I have always talked to officials after the match is completed.  That way you know the call will not be changed and the official knows you are not trying to change it.  A much more civilized conversation occurs at this time. 

1 hour ago, rjs4470 said:

Agreed. But it's also hard to objectively evaluate someone you're mad at for making a call that you think is wrong, especially in the heat of the moment. And the reality is, that call may have actually been right. Plus evaluating someone's performance is a skill, and not something everyone can be effective at doing. How do you insure there are standards in place, and that they are followed? These aren't insurmountable issues, but if coaches suddenly hold so much weight in a ref's evaluation, it could start influencing the way they call matches. You're certainly going to call matches differently if you know your ability to work future events is based on a coaches opinion of you. 

Doing evaluations is hard. Companies spend lots of money, training and time to make sure they are done correctly at the corporate level.  And to do them well, also takes time and effort. I'm not sure that adding this to a coaches already full plate is the most effective way to solve the problem. 

If evaluations/rankings/rating scales work in other states, why can't they work in Kentucky?  The officials association is not a corporate entity like you mention. A google form with objective questions with scales is not a hard thing to keep track of, nor does it cost a tremendous amount of money. It doesn't take as much time as you think it would to complete, either (5 minutes, tops). I mean, if Ranger can rank the top 30 kids across 14 weight classes, evaluating 80-100 refs would be a piece of cake - especially if they had PIN's instead of names. Where there's a will, there's a way.  

2 hours ago, GooglyMoogly said:

We need a way to evaluate officials after every competition.  Often when we compete in other states the officials are giving out their 'number' so coaches can evaluate them.  The officials with the highest ratings through the year are selected for the post season/state tournament.  This is pretty common sense in my opinion.  

If you take pride in being an official I imagine you would also like to be selected to work the state tournament.  A rating process would create competition.  Competition incentives people to improve.  If you don't improve you don't get selected.  How is this difficult to understand? 

Perfection is not demanded from officials.  Competency is demanded from officials during the post season.  Because there is no evaluation officials are an untouchable class in the KY wrestling community and have zero incentive to improve outside of their own intrinsic motivation. If you have been officiating for 10, 20, 30 years there probably isn't a whole lot of motivation to improve your skills.  This is how we get incompetent officials at the state tournament. eh hem, stalling, stalling, stalling, stalling, stalling, dq! 

Your reasoning is flawed regarding coaches evaluating officials.  Lets say an official works 6 tournaments and 6 duals through the season(I know most are doing much more especially if you include middle school/youth).  Lets say there is an average of 10 teams across those tournaments and only 2 teams per dual meet. That's 72 evaluations during the season.  If we don't incentivize/penalize coaches for doing/not doing the evaluations maybe we get 75% submitted.  So on the low end we would have 54 evaluations to build an aggregate. Doing this would create a pretty clear picture of an officials competency. There will be outliers for sure. Especially if a coach is pissed off about a match, but 30 pissed off coaches doing evaluations is not an anomaly, it is a pattern. 

If I am an official who is not selected for post season and/or is not happy with my ranking I am probably going to do some self reflection and put more effort into improving my skills, mechanics, understanding of the rules, wrestling positions, etc. 

I am not even sure the KHSAA would need to be involved. I think it is possible for the official's association to do this on their own.  Create a google form specific to each official.  All submissions for that official will be aggregated and the data/comments used to rank them.  It could be more intricate than this, but I just thought of the most low effort/cost effective way to do it.  

Coaches talk about officials.  We have some good ones for sure and there are some young officials I think have real promise, but there are a few that are SOOOOOOO bad they diminish our sport's credibility and that is a problem we need to address. 

Great post. "Perfection is not demanded from officials.  Competency is demanded from officials during the post season." Sums it up pretty well. 

2 hours ago, GooglyMoogly said:

Hard to evaluate your buddies/peers effectively.  I am not saying assignors shouldn't be a part of the process, but they shouldn't be the only form of evaluating officials either.  I was talking to my high school coach yesterday and he was pretty blown away that we don't have a way to evaluate officials. We are way behind the state he coaches in, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing everything we can to elevate the level of wrestling here.  

They use to give us an evaluation form in our packets every year.  Coaches had to print and sign their names to the form. Why not bring that back?

Assuming that officials take a test yearly to verify they know the rules, do coaches take the same test for rules?

How are post season officials selected in the current moment?  If it’s the officials association, the coaches association should aim to them for an evaluation and selection process.  If it’s the KHSAA then aim towards them.  Ps - If it’s the KHSAA that assigns and selects then you mine as well save your breath!!!

1 hour ago, GentleBeard said:

If evaluations/rankings/rating scales work in other states, why can't they work in Kentucky?  The officials association is not a corporate entity like you mention. A google form with objective questions with scales is not a hard thing to keep track of, nor does it cost a tremendous amount of money. It doesn't take as much time as you think it would to complete, either (5 minutes, tops). I mean, if Ranger can rank the top 30 kids across 14 weight classes, evaluating 80-100 refs would be a piece of cake - especially if they had PIN's instead of names. Where there's a will, there's a way.  

All I'm saying is I think this is attacking the problem the wrong way. Like I've said 1000 times, all the accountability in the world means nothing if we don't have enough officials. Fixing this problem starts with having enough officials so that any form of accountability lessens the amount the bad officials work. The less proficient officials have to work now at the high school level because we don't have enough to go around. The other issue is of the 86 officials we currently have, how many are truly bad? Does it make sense to to put even more pressure on the good officials by rating their every move and possibly run them off to weed out the dozen or so bad ones? Especially with the reality that because of low numbers the bad ones are going to end up working anyway? Fix the low numbers first. Once we get that right, work on the accountability more if you need to, although I still say this should not be totally in the hands of coaches, who naturally aren't unbiased. I've never yet seen a coach to ask a ref to overturn a bad call that went in his wrestlers favor. And I've run enough tournaments to know that I can't even get coaches to fill out an MOW ballot that takes 1 minute to fill out and turn in. A 5 minute form isn't anymore likely to get filled out. Which means the only ones you'll get returned are the ones that are negative.

I actually have told an official to change a call that went in my wrestlers favor. Now those situations all involved my sons so I didn’t have to worry about parent feedback. But generally that’s not happening. 

Video replay with the official and both coaches have to agree.  All 3 mic'd up during the discussion as they are watching the replay.  That would be a classic way to handle all questionable calls and allow the fans saying what are they discussing to enjoy the moment.  

The moral and ethical compass would be put in check by everyone. 

I think the real issue is inconsistency in calls from ref to ref.

One calls a take down with two feet (toes) just inside the circle and later on another calls the same situation as no take down. Not to mention the takedown that was called with both wrestlers clearly and fully outside the line when control was established.

A locking hands call before the returned wrestler hit the mat and an other clear locking hands not called at all.

Stalling on a top position when the bottom wrestler has NOT gotten his belly off the mat for 30 seconds then stalling on the top position with both legs in and a half applied.

Just really frustrating seeing this and many more at our state tournament!

Go to Ohio and the stalling calls come quick and often in the regular season, just wondering out loud if they had a kid or ever had a kid dq’d from their state tournament for stalling……

I could keep going but I’ll stop.

5 hours ago, Tapout said:

I think the real issue is inconsistency in calls from ref to ref.

One calls a take down with two feet (toes) just inside the circle and later on another calls the same situation as no take down. Not to mention the takedown that was called with both wrestlers clearly and fully outside the line when control was established.

A locking hands call before the returned wrestler hit the mat and an other clear locking hands not called at all.

Stalling on a top position when the bottom wrestler has NOT gotten his belly off the mat for 30 seconds then stalling on the top position with both legs in and a half applied.

Just really frustrating seeing this and many more at our state tournament!

Go to Ohio and the stalling calls come quick and often in the regular season, just wondering out loud if they had a kid or ever had a kid dq’d from their state tournament for stalling……

I could keep going but I’ll stop.

I had a college teammate who was stalled out in OT in the Ohio state finals..so it does happen there too. Growing up near Ohio, we wrestled about half our matches across the river and stalling was completely different over there. If you were on top and weren’t turning the bottom guy, you were called for stalling. I knew I had about 15-20 seconds to turn the kid or else I was going to get hit so you had to kick them out. 

17 hours ago, J.W. said:

Video replay with the official and both coaches have to agree.  All 3 mic'd up during the discussion as they are watching the replay.  That would be a classic way to handle all questionable calls and allow the fans saying what are they discussing to enjoy the moment.  

The moral and ethical compass would be put in check by everyone. 

Man don't bring video into the mix.  

#1 Every match would have to be recorded. (Would be touch to require every mat to have a video at every tourney)

#2 How often do we use it? If you only get 1 or 2 a match then it still does not solve the problem when a call is wrong after you use the time out. 

#3  Do we really want to add even more time to the events? 

I know personally I do not like the video replay in any sport.  It takes away from the sport.  If we micromanaged every second of the match with electronics there would be no human factor. 

I know many times in the sports that I played part of the game was blocking the view of the official/referee/Umpire to get away with a call. (Part of the game)

Just now, grappler-of-old said:

Man don't bring video into the mix.  

#1 Every match would have to be recorded. (Would be touch to require every mat to have a video at every tourney)

#2 How often do we use it? If you only get 1 or 2 a match then it still does not solve the problem when a call is wrong after you use the time out. 

#3  Do we really want to add even more time to the events? 

I know personally I do not like the video replay in any sport.  It takes away from the sport.  If we micromanaged every second of the match with electronics there would be no human factor. 

I know many times in the sports that I played part of the game was blocking the view of the official/referee/Umpire to get away with a call. (Part of the game)

I was being completely sarcastic.  Just imagine hearing two coaches and a referee mic'd up for the entire venue to hear on a loud speaker.  Half agreeing with one and half the other.  It would be a mess.  

Opps sorry missed the sarcasm.  No Biggie