Now that I have had time to do the statistics for 2022 state.

First my impressions on this years state.

1.       Still hate the Semi State set up.  But I will have to live with it, it has been worse.

2.      Not sure I liked the bracket set up SS1 #2 and SS1 #3 meeting before the semi’s. I think top four from each semi-state should be in separate quarter-brackets.

3.      Did like the 2 semi-states and taking the top 8.

4.      Not sure how I feel about the team points transferring or not transferring from semi-state to state.

5.      Venue was not bad the big TV screens with the bouts on it was nice.

6.      Having a warm up areas was nice (But needed a bout board in the warm up area)

Now on to the nerd factor. (Statistics)

Comparing Semi-state 1 and 2

It was interesting that both placed exactly 56 wrestlers each.

SS 1 had 18 finalists to SS2 10

SS1 had 10 champions to SS2 4

SS1 outscored SS2 917 to 746

SS1 had 6 teams in the top 10 to SS1 4

Comparing Regions

 Team Points                        Placers               Finalists              Champions         Top 10 Teams

R1          419.5                    R5          25           R1          9             R1          8             R5          3

R5          375                       R1          23           R5          7             R5          2             R1          2

R4          200                       R3          13           R3          4             R2          1             R3          2

R3          183                       R6          12           R4          3             R3          1             R4          2

R8          156.5                    R3          11           R2          2             R6          1             R8          1

R6          134                       R8          11           R8          2             R8          1             R2          0

R2          114.5                    R2          9             R6          1             R4          0             R6          0

R7          80.5                      R7          8             R7          0             R7          0             R7          0

Sorry to steal part of your thunder Ranger

No problem at all. Stat away!!!

1) I am coming around to this format. Last year’s format not so much. This year with top 8 was pretty darn good. 
2) what weight was the issue?  The 2 and 3 from same SS should not hit in quarters. 
 

I hold my tongue on some of the other items.  

11 hours ago, Ranger123 said:

2) what weight was the issue?  The 2 and 3 from same SS should not hit in quarters. 

This was true in all wt classes. 

106 SS2 #2 McCloskey Sk met SS2#3 Smith John Cent 2nd round. 

215 SS2 #2 Whitehead MS met SS2 #3 Elliston Con 2nd round. 

On 4/17/2022 at 9:54 AM, grappler-of-old said:

This was true in all wt classes. 

106 SS2 #2 McCloskey Sk met SS2#3 Smith John Cent 2nd round. 

215 SS2 #2 Whitehead MS met SS2 #3 Elliston Con 2nd round. 

GOO, I was wondering the same thing. Looking back Elliston should have forfeited the 3rd place match at Semi-State. I don't know if the path would've been easier, but he wouldn't have seen Whitehead in the 2nd round who seems to just have his number. If this is the format going forward, you may see forfeits at Semi-State to avoid these scenarios. 

On 4/17/2022 at 8:54 AM, grappler-of-old said:

This was true in all wt classes. 

106 SS2 #2 McCloskey Sk met SS2#3 Smith John Cent 2nd round. 

215 SS2 #2 Whitehead MS met SS2 #3 Elliston Con 2nd round. 

2nd round in a 16 man bracket are quarterfinal matches. You’ll have 2 sets of matches of 1v4 and 2v3 if the seeds are correct. I think, for example, all the odd seeds from 1 semi state vs all the even seeds from the other semi state would probably be more appropriate. 

On 4/22/2022 at 5:16 PM, GentleBeard said:

2nd round in a 16 man bracket are quarterfinal matches. You’ll have 2 sets of matches of 1v4 and 2v3 if the seeds are correct. I think, for example, all the odd seeds from 1 semi state vs all the even seeds from the other semi state would probably be more appropriate. 

100%

I like that this post stayed positive, and I don't want to take away from that.  But at the same time I just want to reiterate your 1st item - which is that no one wants the semi-state format.  I want, and I think the kids deserve, a real state tournament with 32 man brackets, and it should be in an arena.  

Yes, two semi-states was far better than 4.  Yes, GRC did a good job and it's a fine venue as far as high schools go. But let's be real, Union County literally took up half the seats all by themselves.  If another school showed up like Union (I wish!) then our venue couldn't handle it.  I know my family was squeezed in like sardines in our little section.  Many people were in seats that couldn't even see the mats because of the standing area in front of the bleachers.  That's obviously not ideal for casual spectating. 

I just feel that if we don't fight for getting the old format back, then we can kiss it good bye forever.   

Other than that, I agree with everything you said! 

2 hours ago, gator1 said:

I like that this post stayed positive, and I don't want to take away from that.  But at the same time I just want to reiterate your 1st item - which is that no one wants the semi-state format.  I want, and I think the kids deserve, a real state tournament with 32 man brackets, and it should be in an arena.  

Yes, two semi-states was far better than 4.  Yes, GRC did a good job and it's a fine venue as far as high schools go. But let's be real, Union County literally took up half the seats all by themselves.  If another school showed up like Union (I wish!) then our venue couldn't handle it.  I know my family was squeezed in like sardines in our little section.  Many people were in seats that couldn't even see the mats because of the standing area in front of the bleachers.  That's obviously not ideal for casual spectating. 

I just feel that if we don't fight for getting the old format back, then we can kiss it good bye forever.   

Other than that, I agree with everything you said! 

My intention was to try and stay as neutral as I can.  My big mouth gets me in trouble a lot (Just ask my wife LOL)

I would 100% like to return to the 32 man bracket.  My hope is that we get enough wrestling team that we will need to return to District-Region-State.  Some regions are getting very big, but we are not there yet.  Lou needs to get back the old teams and push for more new teams.  Nky needs to get new teams specifically the area between Nky and Lou-Lex.  (The counties of Gallatin, Carrol, Owen, Bracken, Robertson, Mason, Trimble, and Henry)

Pendleton County should be starting next year. 

I agree with a lot of the above. I DO NOT think that 32 man brackets are necessary in Kentucky. If we had even the slightest bit of depth whatsoever maybe. All we would be doing is adding in a bunch of early round pins. It makes no sense for team score to carry over from semi-state to state as they are different tournaments no matter how you want to cut it. The tournament is ran very well for it being in a HS gym but it needs to be at least in a college arena of some sort at minimum. Before I was in KY I came to watch Fahy in the finals and some of the Woodford guys and it was one of the coolest experiences I have seen in Frankfort. We have gone the wrong direction in that aspect. As many have complained about in the past, they need to do a better job of splitting schools to semi-states based on distance. Louisville to Union was BRUTAL. 

I'm curious how many 7th and 8th place guys from Semi-State placed at State. If it was more than 10% I would be very shocked.  

22 hours ago, Elite Training Center KY said:

I'm curious how many 7th and 8th place guys from Semi-State placed at State. If it was more than 10% I would be very shocked.  

This is an interesting question, so I checked... It's 14.3%

106 - Micah Thompson (8th -> 6th)

120 - Hunter Luttrell (7th -> 7th)

138 - Nicholas Armentano (7th -> 7th)

150 - Aiden Zinser (8th -> 8th)

150 - Mason Kellett (7th -> 7th)

157 - Brandon Burchett (7th -> 6th)

165 - Jack James (7th -> 8th)

285 - Kaleb Kiely (8th -> 3rd)

That's 8 out of 56 kids that finished 7th or 8th at semi states, who then went on to place in the final round.  

That's actually a fairly high percentage when you consider that these guys all started with terrible draws against the top 2 guys from the other semi-state.  

1 hour ago, gator1 said:

This is an interesting question, so I checked... It's 14.3%

106 - Micah Thompson (8th -> 6th)

120 - Hunter Luttrell (7th -> 7th)

138 - Nicholas Armentano (7th -> 7th)

150 - Aiden Zinser (8th -> 8th)

150 - Mason Kellett (7th -> 7th)

157 - Brandon Burchett (7th -> 6th)

165 - Jack James (7th -> 8th)

285 - Kaleb Kiely (8th -> 3rd)

That's 8 out of 56 kids that finished 7th or 8th at semi states, who then went on to place in the final round.  

That's actually a fairly high percentage when you consider that these guys all started with terrible draws against the top 2 guys from the other semi-state.  

 

Might be higher than that. Cano finished 7th at semi state and 5th at state at 106. 

2 hours ago, WVhighlander said:

Might be higher than that. Cano finished 7th at semi state and 5th at state at 106. 

Good catch.  That takes us to 16.1% and I could have missed others too.  

17 hours ago, gator1 said:

This is an interesting question, so I checked... It's 14.3%

106 - Micah Thompson (8th -> 6th)

120 - Hunter Luttrell (7th -> 7th)

138 - Nicholas Armentano (7th -> 7th)

150 - Aiden Zinser (8th -> 8th)

150 - Mason Kellett (7th -> 7th)

157 - Brandon Burchett (7th -> 6th)

165 - Jack James (7th -> 8th)

285 - Kaleb Kiely (8th -> 3rd)

That's 8 out of 56 kids that finished 7th or 8th at semi states, who then went on to place in the final round.  

That's actually a fairly high percentage when you consider that these guys all started with terrible draws against the top 2 guys from the other semi-state.  

 

17 hours ago, gator1 said:

This is an interesting question, so I checked... It's 14.3%

106 - Micah Thompson (8th -> 6th)

120 - Hunter Luttrell (7th -> 7th)

138 - Nicholas Armentano (7th -> 7th)

150 - Aiden Zinser (8th -> 8th)

150 - Mason Kellett (7th -> 7th)

157 - Brandon Burchett (7th -> 6th)

165 - Jack James (7th -> 8th)

285 - Kaleb Kiely (8th -> 3rd)

That's 8 out of 56 kids that finished 7th or 8th at semi states, who then went on to place in the final round.  

That's actually a fairly high percentage when you consider that these guys all started with terrible draws against the top 2 guys from the other semi-state.  

 

Those are kids that placed 7th or 8th in their semi state that went on to place at state. None of the other middle schoolers placed 7th or 8th at semi state.

Holy smokes 16+ percent is insane to say the least. Of those 16% how many came from the stronger Semi-State (SS1 based on the above stats). Now we are getting into the really interesting stats. I am still sticking with the fact we have no depth even given the above. The drop off from the top 2-3 guys is huge outside of maybe 120 which was my favorite weight of the year. When I refer to depth I am referring to title contenders.

106-Raney is a pin above everyone. 

113-Raney is a pin above everyone

120-Pretty good depth but just watching state Whorton was 4+ points ahead of second best guy. (literally laid on bottom entire third lol I got on him after the match)

126-Eckman is a major better than everyone else on any given day

132-Top 2 guys are a pin better than the rest of the state

138- A little depth here. Not sure if its true but heard Peyton used the Covid year so not suprised with him being so dominate. Taking nothing away kid is a stud.

144- This weight has a little depth but the top 3 were clearly ahead of rest in Beane, Goss, and Andreoni.

150- Top 2 were above the rest

157- Weird weight. Herron is a major better than everyone other than Ferree. Ferree's style doesn't really reflect in points against the better guys in the state.

165- 2 horse race with Jeff kinley hurt

175- You have Duke......then Kiser....................................................................................................then everyone else

190- You have Little. On my list for best out of Kentucky

215 and HWT- You either have one guy that Walks through the weight or flip a coin and you will get your champ. I think you could have merged these weights this year and there is a chance neither of the champs would have won the weight. 

59 minutes ago, Elite Training Center KY said:

Holy smokes 16+ percent is insane to say the least. Of those 16% how many came from the stronger Semi-State (SS1 based on the above stats). Now we are getting into the really interesting stats. I am still sticking with the fact we have no depth even given the above. The drop off from the top 2-3 guys is huge outside of maybe 120 which was my favorite weight of the year. When I refer to depth I am referring to title contenders.

106-Raney is a pin above everyone. 

113-Raney is a pin above everyone

120-Pretty good depth but just watching state Whorton was 4+ points ahead of second best guy. (literally laid on bottom entire third lol I got on him after the match)

126-Eckman is a major better than everyone else on any given day

132-Top 2 guys are a pin better than the rest of the state

138- A little depth here. Not sure if its true but heard Peyton used the Covid year so not suprised with him being so dominate. Taking nothing away kid is a stud.

144- This weight has a little depth but the top 3 were clearly ahead of rest in Beane, Goss, and Andreoni.

150- Top 2 were above the rest

157- Weird weight. Herron is a major better than everyone other than Ferree. Ferree's style doesn't really reflect in points against the better guys in the state.

165- 2 horse race with Jeff kinley hurt

175- You have Duke......then Kiser....................................................................................................then everyone else

190- You have Little. On my list for best out of Kentucky

215 and HWT- You either have one guy that Walks through the weight or flip a coin and you will get your champ. I think you could have merged these weights this year and there is a chance neither of the champs would have won the weight. 

I believe Tj beat whorton during the season at 120. So that match up might be closer than the finals match showed. 

I was told Whorton was hurt a week before that match (he is still hurt as he has the same piece of bone floating in his knee. Reason he medical Forfeit at NHSCAs). In the same sense Lane Kiser beat Noah Duke this year as well and I was told Duke was sick. That is why I said "just watching state" before I said Whorton was 4+ points better. 

Depth is a relative statement.

The level, style, experience, number of participants may be different between states but depth is depth.

Is a #32 in Iowa/Pennsylvania/etc... better than our KY kids? Maybe? Who knows.

Is that #32 way behind the #1 in that State? Of course!

Just like our #32s are way behind our #1 kids

1 hour ago, chad.greenwell said:

Depth is a relative statement.

The level, style, experience, number of participants may be different between states but depth is depth.

Is a #32 in Iowa/Pennsylvania/etc... better than our KY kids? Maybe? Who knows.

Is that #32 way behind the #1 in that State? Of course!

Just like our #32s are way behind our #1 kids

 

This is something I have had a hard time understanding for a long time.  So many people want to compare us to other states.  Up here in Nky we unfairly compare ourselves to Ohio.  WHY?

I don't really care about what Ohio kids are like.  I am only worried about KY.  Ky has become such a have and have not wrestling community.  We really do not have a middle class in wrestling.  You have the Unions, Trinity's, Ryle's and the other elite programs.  Then you have most other programs, with 6-10 wt classes filled, who may have 1 or 2 above average wrestlers on the team.  

Many are trying to get ahead of ourselves.  Trying to make all our kids into national powerhouses.  First we need to stabilize the programs we have and expand the number of programs.  When these programs are regularly getting 10-14 wt. classes filled with competent wrestlers, then we can build the powerhouse kids.  (Not filling wt. classes with 1st year kids just to fill a spot)

This is why we need a 32 man bracket.  So more kids are wrestling at the state tournament and get a taste of what it is like.  Then they have a want and need to get better so they can place at the state.  All this helps build programs up.  Those that have been around a while will remember I was against the 32 man bracket at the beginning.  I have seen the plus side of this. We have went from about 80-85 school programs to now about 110.  I believe this is because of the 32 man bracket.  

I am not begrudging those who are trying to build nationally elite wrestlers, just remember, as a state we are not there yet.  We are getting closer every year and I hope I am still around to at least see Ky wrestling considered a great state for wrestling. 

**As always these are the opinions of GOO nothing more nothing less. You can take them or leave them. In the grand scheme of things it really does not matter. 

GOO out

1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:

This is something I have had a hard time understanding for a long time.  So many people want to compare us to other states.  Up here in Nky we unfairly compare ourselves to Ohio.  WHY?

I don't really care about what Ohio kids are like.  I am only worried about KY.  Ky has become such a have and have not wrestling community.  We really do not have a middle class in wrestling.  You have the Unions, Trinity's, Ryle's and the other elite programs.  Then you have most other programs, with 6-10 wt classes filled, who may have 1 or 2 above average wrestlers on the team.  

Many are trying to get ahead of ourselves.  Trying to make all our kids into national powerhouses.  First we need to stabilize the programs we have and expand the number of programs.  When these programs are regularly getting 10-14 wt. classes filled with competent wrestlers, then we can build the powerhouse kids.  (Not filling wt. classes with 1st year kids just to fill a spot)

This is why we need a 32 man bracket.  So more kids are wrestling at the state tournament and get a taste of what it is like.  Then they have a want and need to get better so they can place at the state.  All this helps build programs up.  Those that have been around a while will remember I was against the 32 man bracket at the beginning.  I have seen the plus side of this. We have went from about 80-85 school programs to now about 110.  I believe this is because of the 32 man bracket.  

I am not begrudging those who are trying to build nationally elite wrestlers, just remember, as a state we are not there yet.  We are getting closer every year and I hope I am still around to at least see Ky wrestling considered a great state for wrestling. 

**As always these are the opinions of GOO nothing more nothing less. You can take them or leave them. In the grand scheme of things it really does not matter. 

GOO out

That was my point also. Saying we have a lack of depth is not relative. We shouldn't be comparing ourselves to other states as much as we should be trying to build programs and numbers. 

I think we just have different aspirations for Kentucky wrestling. We have had a time when there were 4-5 nationally ranked kids at the same time out of Kentucky (Me, Brock, Fausz, Lampe, Meyers). At this same time the depth was MUCH higher than it is currently. When you have elite guys they typically train outside of their program and they will bring that stuff back to their rooms. That could be work ethic, technique, commitment level literally anything. Parents notice what other kids are doing and don't want there kids to fall behind. If little Jonny is going to 3 summer camps and Bobs dad down the street sees that he will most likely sign his kid up, that grows wrestling. Trying to build Kentucky wrestling on sheer numbers wont help as now you have a bunch of half committed wrestlers and that spreads like wild fire. There will ALWAYS be powerhouse and dominate programs, even in Ohio and other states. We should compare ourselves to other states as they are better. If you do not compare yourself then how do you know if you are getting better or worse? If all you care about is Kentucky state titles I can promise there will be 14 state champs next year just like we had the last 20+ years. 

I grew up wrestling in PA and the biggest difference I see between KY and PA is numbers. More youth, more middle school, more high school. JV squads with real wrestle offs that pushed the starters to work harder. Individual tournaments that you could be proud of to come in 3rd place, and you definitely wouldn't place if you didn't put in the work.

Also way less travel and more competitions because every school had a team. 

I believe if you increase the numbers, the competitive spirit will take care of the rest. 

Idk, I could be totally wrong. But that's my theory.

On 5/4/2022 at 11:11 AM, grappler-of-old said:

This is something I have had a hard time understanding for a long time.  So many people want to compare us to other states.  Up here in Nky we unfairly compare ourselves to Ohio.  WHY?

I don't really care about what Ohio kids are like.  I am only worried about KY.  Ky has become such a have and have not wrestling community.  We really do not have a middle class in wrestling.  You have the Unions, Trinity's, Ryle's and the other elite programs.  Then you have most other programs, with 6-10 wt classes filled, who may have 1 or 2 above average wrestlers on the team.  

Many are trying to get ahead of ourselves.  Trying to make all our kids into national powerhouses.  First we need to stabilize the programs we have and expand the number of programs.  When these programs are regularly getting 10-14 wt. classes filled with competent wrestlers, then we can build the powerhouse kids.  (Not filling wt. classes with 1st year kids just to fill a spot)

This is why we need a 32 man bracket.  So more kids are wrestling at the state tournament and get a taste of what it is like.  Then they have a want and need to get better so they can place at the state.  All this helps build programs up.  Those that have been around a while will remember I was against the 32 man bracket at the beginning.  I have seen the plus side of this. We have went from about 80-85 school programs to now about 110.  I believe this is because of the 32 man bracket.  

I am not begrudging those who are trying to build nationally elite wrestlers, just remember, as a state we are not there yet.  We are getting closer every year and I hope I am still around to at least see Ky wrestling considered a great state for wrestling. 

**As always these are the opinions of GOO nothing more nothing less. You can take them or leave them. In the grand scheme of things it really does not matter. 

GOO out

I agree. I can understand wanting to compete nationally. And we've had more than a few have some success on a national level. But I believe the drive to to be more competitive nationally has ultimately hurt our numbers overall because we are trying to train everyone to be elite. And that's driving the average kids out of the sport. 

Elite:  Looking back at my post it may seem I am criticizing what you are doing.  Not in any way am I doing that, keep doing what you are doing, you are helping at the top end. 

I am not saying we don't train elite kids. What I am saying we don't just focus all our efforts on them.  If we don't increase the numbers in the wrestling room who are those elite wrestlers going to impact? It's the what came first game "The chicken or the egg".  I think the egg. 

We must build up our middle class.  Teams with several competitive kids on the team.  We must have more kids so we have JV tournaments every weekend. JV state is awesome "Thanks Moore High school". We have built up our middle and Youth. Now we have to focus on building the numbers in the high school rooms.  We have to get kids in the room even if they are half committed (High school sports are to get kids doing something for their school to keep them focused on school).  

We can work on this on both ends, but we need more on the lower end working harder.  We still have a huge number of 1st generation wrestlers, parents who don't know how to motivate their kids.  If this 1st generation is half committed then when they have kids who wrestle they will help make those kids fully committed.  

Everyone likes working with the elite kids, winning is fun.  The problem is we don't have enough who are willing to work the lower end.  On the surface it seems less rewarding but in the long run it is extremely rewarding. I thank the JV coach's all the time for getting them ready for the next level and suffering through the kids quitting and not giving their all.  I don't think they know how much they help the sport move forward. 

All right I will get off my soap box. sorry. 

42 minutes ago, gator1 said:

I grew up wrestling in PA and the biggest difference I see between KY and PA is numbers. More youth, more middle school, more high school. JV squads with real wrestle offs that pushed the starters to work harder. Individual tournaments that you could be proud of to come in 3rd place, and you definitely wouldn't place if you didn't put in the work.

Also way less travel and more competitions because every school had a team. 

I believe if you increase the numbers, the competitive spirit will take care of the rest. 

Idk, I could be totally wrong. But that's my theory.

Pennsylvania has triple the population of Kentucky, but that isn't a great excuse when Oklahoma(.5 million less) and Iowa(1.4 million less) have much greater success than we do.  What it comes down to is a lack of coaches. Specifically, a lack of coaches who are committed beyond the season.  No division one teams in the last 30 years/a low number of other college programs are a major contributor to this.  

3 hours ago, GooglyMoogly said:

Pennsylvania has triple the population of Kentucky, but that isn't a great excuse when Oklahoma(.5 million less) and Iowa(1.4 million less) have much greater success than we do.  What it comes down to is a lack of coaches. Specifically, a lack of coaches who are committed beyond the season.  No division one teams in the last 30 years/a low number of other college programs are a major contributor to this.  

True, but where do the coaches come from? They come from our current wrestlers. The more you grow the numbers, the more possible future coaches you'll have. But the way we run our season with all day Saturday tournaments comprising most of the season, there's a huge obstacle to getting young guys who might have or will be having families into the coaching ranks.

I don't believe there is a coach anywhere that wouldn't want to have a few elite kids mixed with a couple really good ones and the rest above or average kids,  but in reality most teams just dont have that and really only a few do. I have done this coaching thing for a while now (18 years) and that by no means makes me the guy with all the answers. I coach all kids in our program from Pre-K to Seniors and have watched us grow over the years. I coach all the ages because we have nobody else to do it. The school board says if you want a feeder you coach it so I do with the help of my other 2 coaches. I say this because I think its the same for a lot of non traditional wrestling schools I see every year. They don't have numbers and sometimes no help. For me my numbers have grown and we are a better team over the past few years but what I wouldn't call a good team. We are average with some really good kids but no elite ones. I have a team full of non committed wrestlers and parents. First and foremost parents are what has to get committed because if they aren't the kid wont be. I agree the all day tourneys are a bad thing. Unless all your kids are winning every tourney and everyone is totally bought in it can hurt numbers. For us we started to grow in keeping kids when we switched to duals over individual tourneys which helped in many areas. First faster days, then more matches for everyone and even JV because most of the time you can fill in other teams holes with back-ups This allows my JV kids to usually get 25-30 matches a year at least. Last the team starts to grow together as a unit. So we only wrestle usually one individual tourney a year just so our kids have some experience in them for regionals. As for JV tourneys we just don't do them at all. Truth if my younger kids are going to be wrestling kids that are wrestling varsity anyways at JV tourneys why not just go wrestle a varsity match. We can all have our thoughts but as long as anyone who isn't a state medalist can wrestle JV its not really JV. I can go on a lot about why I don't like JV but will leave that to another day. I am not so sure I agree with wrestling a few years back was better than it is now, but everyone has their own beliefs there too. I know we did have a few studs back then but I would say we have that now too and I think maybe more depth these days. Before we had just a few kids at a few elite programs which we still have all of those today, but have added more like Paducah Tillman, Walton Vernon just to many two. There are more that didn't have those guys years ago. So in all I think KY wrestling has gotten better not worse. I think we just have to build numbers and keep them then the cream will continue to find each other and rise to the top.

On 5/5/2022 at 10:37 AM, Elite Training Center KY said:

I think we just have different aspirations for Kentucky wrestling. We have had a time when there were 4-5 nationally ranked kids at the same time out of Kentucky (Me, Brock, Fausz, Lampe, Meyers). At this same time the depth was MUCH higher than it is currently. When you have elite guys they typically train outside of their program and they will bring that stuff back to their rooms. That could be work ethic, technique, commitment level literally anything. Parents notice what other kids are doing and don't want there kids to fall behind. If little Jonny is going to 3 summer camps and Bobs dad down the street sees that he will most likely sign his kid up, that grows wrestling. Trying to build Kentucky wrestling on sheer numbers wont help as now you have a bunch of half committed wrestlers and that spreads like wild fire. There will ALWAYS be powerhouse and dominate programs, even in Ohio and other states. We should compare ourselves to other states as they are better. If you do not compare yourself then how do you know if you are getting better or worse? If all you care about is Kentucky state titles I can promise there will be 14 state champs next year just like we had the last 20+ years. 

Why stop at nationally ranked HS kids? Why not compare NCAA AA's as an evaluator?

I recall having a very similar discussion with a former college teammate from NE OH about this subject. I actually was bragging about the young talent we had at that time in KY (I believe you were one of them!) He then proceeded to tell me that his HS team had more NCAA AA's in the previous 5 (it may have been 10) years than our whole state has had ever. That really put things into perspective for me. 

We'll never have what they have. Might as well accept it and move on. It doesn't mean our elite cannot compete vs theirs. Ours have and will continue to do so. But we should spend more time marketing our sport and focusing on participation. It's a #'s game. The more athletes we get interested in our sport, the more that will end up at training centers like yours and learning from the best coaches our state has to offer. 

My 8th grader stopped wrestling and is now involved with travel football, travel basketball, and competitive track. I've seen firsthand 1000's of better than average KY athletes that has never sniffed a wrestling mat. We have the committed athletes. They're just choosing other sports. 

37 minutes ago, MLee said:

Why stop at nationally ranked HS kids? Why not compare NCAA AA's as an evaluator?

I recall having a very similar discussion with a former college teammate from NE OH about this subject. I actually was bragging about the young talent we had at that time in KY (I believe you were one of them!) He then proceeded to tell me that his HS team had more NCAA AA's in the previous 5 (it may have been 10) years than our whole state has had ever. That really put things into perspective for me. 

We'll never have what they have. Might as well accept it and move on. It doesn't mean our elite cannot compete vs theirs. Ours have and will continue to do so. But we should spend more time marketing our sport and focusing on participation. It's a #'s game. The more athletes we get interested in our sport, the more that will end up at training centers like yours and learning from the best coaches our state has to offer. 

My 8th grader stopped wrestling and is now involved with travel football, travel basketball, and competitive track. I've seen firsthand 1000's of better than average KY athletes that has never sniffed a wrestling mat. We have the committed athletes. They're just choosing other sports. 

 

 

 

I agree with a lot of this. I do think the numbers need to be there in order to create elite guys. With that being said Kentucky has gone backwards as far as depth, as well as our very top talent. I am not looking to make statements about how bad Kentucky wrestling is right now, the fact we are wrestling the state tournament in a HS gym speaks for itself. What can we do as coaches to grown wrestling? I am at a school where we have FANTASTIC coaches as well as a full time JV coach who does a great job. What should smaller schools do that don't have the man power that schools like Union, Ryle, JC, Trinity have? What tips can we give to new coaches or young guys right out of college? (I am still learning from Patrick and others). We can keep saying Promote, Promote, promote but in what way? These are all genuine questions that I think could help. I do think that the 2013-2017 guys coming back from college and taking over young programs like Owensboro will help. 

2 hours ago, panthers said:

. First and foremost parents are what has to get committed because if they aren't the kid wont be. I agree the all day tourneys are a bad thing. Unless all your kids are winning every tourney and everyone is totally bought in it can hurt numbers. 

38 minutes ago, MLee said:

My 8th grader stopped wrestling and is now involved with travel football, travel basketball, and competitive track. I've seen firsthand 1000's of better than average KY athletes that has never sniffed a wrestling mat. We have the committed athletes. They're just choosing other sports. 

 

 

 

  Long Saturdays are a huge problem.  Commitment has a different meaning than most other sports.  Wrestling is 6 days a week, every week to be competitive as a high school sport.  Basketball and football mostly finish on Fridays.  I am not sure what the answer is, but I know having super tournaments (12-18) teams every weekend is not the answer.  Getting parents home before dinner is optimal.  

   This is a new generation, everything needs to be shorter.  A movie over 2 hours long is to long, a professional sporting event lasting over 2 hours is to long.  We have to change with the times regardless of whether we like it or not.  

1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:

 

I agree its a huge commitment to wrestle, but it's not unlike other sports.

Track events are filled with kids and spectators. The time waiting to time participating ratio is very similar to wrestling. Know of any travel baseball or select soccer families? You don't see them in the Spring/Summer. AAU Bball kids play games on Saturday's and Sunday's. During their off days, I'd say a similar % are getting additional skills training. Although HS games are on Friday night, most good HS Fball teams have film study and workouts Saturday mornings. My daughter does competitive cheer (unfortunately). She goes 6 days a week. Hell, nobody practices more than our local HS band! 

I don't think the commitment spooks kids. Poorly ran programs and events turn kids/parents off. I agree, we can reduce the time spent at the gyms, but I don't think that is the main issue with participation. 

2 hours ago, MLee said:

I agree its a huge commitment to wrestle, but it's not unlike other sports.

Track events are filled with kids and spectators. The time waiting to time participating ratio is very similar to wrestling. Know of any travel baseball or select soccer families? You don't see them in the Spring/Summer. AAU Bball kids play games on Saturday's and Sunday's. During their off days, I'd say a similar % are getting additional skills training. Although HS games are on Friday night, most good HS Fball teams have film study and workouts Saturday mornings. My daughter does competitive cheer (unfortunately). She goes 6 days a week. Hell, nobody practices more than our local HS band! 

I don't think the commitment spooks kids. Poorly ran programs and events turn kids/parents off. I agree, we can reduce the time spent at the gyms, but I don't think that is the main issue with participation. 

Track isn't every weekend, and it's outside. In terms of number of days, wrestling is comparable to other sports, but the big difference is is 2-3 hours (tops) vs 8+hours for wrestling. Also, as a parent you don't have to watch your kid get physically beaten up in those other sports which coupled with being stuck in a gym for a whole day can make things unbearable for parents and kids. Of course, the reason we are so big tournament focused is because with so many partial teams, it's the only way you can guarantee your guys get matches. 

I do believe depth has dropped dramatically. There are teams that were really good a few years ago that are now on life support. And where there might have been 10 really solid kids in a weight class, now in many, there are only a handful.