Lots of changes going into the end of the season.  Some weights are absolutely loaded with talent, girls state is going to be exciting!

As always, a group of coaches has put this together and tried hard to be as fair and accurate as possible. We want to recognize these ladies that work so hard, and apologize for anyone missed or that you feel should be ranked differently. 

Just curious:

Do we have any numbers on girls throughout the state?

I don't seem to see the numbers in Nky as I see in the rest of the state. 

25 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

Just curious:

Do we have any numbers on girls throughout the state?

I don't seem to see the numbers in Nky as I see in the rest of the state. 

So did a quick look over.

Last I checked there was 416 girls weight assessed. 

23 are in region 5.

Only 5%

Any idea why we are limiting participation without a qualifying event, but placing more (top 8 rather than top 6)? Last I looked, in some brackets in 2022, anyone who just signs up will place. Is there resistance to having a 2 day tournament with everyone able to participate?

I would say that a 2 day tournament would cause quite a few teams not to be able to compete. That would add another overnight stay for many teams. 

Ok. I guess we need to figure out the end goal for girl's wrestling. Fewer girls with more placers seems watered down - which is probably not the best for optics.

I think the first goal would be participation.  We have to get numbers to a respectable amount. 

I agree 100%. Which is why it might not be a bad idea to involve everyone at this point. Once certain thresholds are met, then move to qualifying events to narrow the field. Kinda feels like the cart is before the horse right now.

6 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

I agree 100%. Which is why it might not be a bad idea to involve everyone at this point. Once certain thresholds are met, then move to qualifying events to narrow the field. Kinda feels like the cart is before the horse right now.

Our numbers have exploded to the point we have to limit the # of participants to 1 per team. For example, if my team was allowed to enter everyone we have 5 114lbers alone. 

When KHSAA was stating, "We are looking at the numbers and blah blah blah" it made sense to have a full open tournament. But with the numbers exploding and to legitimize the state championship we had to limit. I get the argument for a qualification process, but we were being told it was coming and could happen this year. How can you make something happen when we did not have the answers from the top?

Also, the end goal is and has always been to sanction girls wrestling. It has been trending this way for the last two seasons and even more so now. I don't agree with the KHSAA decision to not sanction this season but to continue to have the end game of being sanctioned this is the next step. 

I understand. But it would be reasonable to expect that the overall tournament entries will be fewer this year than last year.  If we medal the top 8, that's 112 placers, but only 415 total are registered.  If you had 415 entries (which will likely be below 300), 27% would get medals. Seems like an issue from a competitive standpoint. Some brackets will have more medals than participants.

16 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

I understand. But it would be reasonable to expect that the overall tournament entries will be fewer this year than last year.  If we medal the top 8, that's 112 placers, but only 415 total are registered.  If you had 415 entries, 27% would get medals. Seems like an issue from a competitive standpoint. Some brackets will have more medals than participants.

Based off the numbers from past, even letting only 1 enter, we expect 300 wrestlers in this years tournament.  Thats almost 100 more than last year. 

Also placing 6 with 300 weight assessed last year put it at 26% of girls getting a medal, the same percentage that we have this year according to your math. 

The numbers have all been gathered, shared , talked about, and decisions were made by many coaches to procede in this way. 

IK this is unrelated but does anyone know how many boys were weight assessed? Sorry this wasn’t the right place to ask this but I was just curious

13 minutes ago, coachteater said:

Based off the numbers from past, even letting only 1 enter, we expect 300 wrestlers in this years tournament.  Thats almost 100 more than last year. 

Also placing 6 with 300 weight assessed last year put it at 26% of girls getting a medal, the same percentage that we have this year according to your math. 

The numbers have all been gathered, shared , talked about, and decisions were made by many coaches to procede in this way. 

Last year there were 210 wrestlers in the tournament. 40% of entrants actually placed.

Last year, there were 183 scoring wrestlers - reflective of 1 wrestler per weight class per team.  

Here's to hoping for a 40% increase in participation considering the limitations this year.

Ok now I see the problem.  The only complaint is that a team can only put one wrester per wt. class. 

I personally am AOK with that.  I don't like 2 participants from the same team on any level.  They do it for middle school but it is not done for High school varsity. 

If we want the girls to reflect the boys or vice versa then they need to be the same.  

10 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

Last year there were 210 wrestlers in the tournament. 40% of entrants actually placed.

Last year, there were 183 scoring wrestlers - reflective of 1 wrestler per weight class per team.  

Here's to hoping for a 40% increase in participation considering the limitations this year.

You said 415, that is number weight assessed not registered.  You make it sound bad 27%get medals, am i hearing this correct? Because if you you have a full 16 man bracketed tournament and place 4, thats 25% 

Heres the deal, there are tons of great coaches out there who have come together to do everything we can for this grow, and it has. No matter what we do, it seems someone wants to know better and complain about things. But funny those individuals never seem to add positive input during the process. 

Thank you to all the coaches, families,  administrators,  and most importantly wrestlers that have supported this growth and provided valuable help and information to grow how we have

What I’m trying to understand is how we grow the sport, but limit participation in the process. I’d agree that once certain thresholds are met, then you can justify qualifying tournaments, etc. Girl’s wrestling in Kentucky isn’t there, yet. What’s the resistance to hosting a big state tournament and boasting in the numbers/growth of KY wrestling? For those girls that wrestle during the season but can’t wrestle at state simply due to roster jams - not qualifying tournaments - what’s their encouragement to stay with the sport? I think eliminating barriers to entry, for now during the growing process, would probably be helpful. 

3 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

Ok now I see the problem.  The only complaint is that a team can only put one wrester per wt. class. 

I personally am AOK with that.  I don't like 2 participants from the same team on any level.  They do it for middle school but it is not done for High school varsity. 

If we want the girls to reflect the boys or vice versa then they need to be the same.  

I agree with the end goal, here. 
However:

1) there are a lot more boys wrestling than girls right now in the state

2) The boys’ numbers justify not just a region tournament but a semi state tournament as well. That’s 2 qualifying tournaments to get to a full 16 man bracket. The girls have none of that. Even middle school (that can enter multiple wrestlers) has numbers to support at least 1 qualifying tournament.

For now, as the sport grows, the fewer barriers to entry the better. When girls wrestling reaches a certain level to justify a qualifying tournament, then that’ll be great and proof we are trending in the right direction. Its just my perspective that limiting participation at this stage is like pruning a plant the minute it breaks the soil. 

3 hours ago, coachteater said:

You said 415, that is number weight assessed not registered.  You make it sound bad 27%get medals, am i hearing this correct? Because if you you have a full 16 man bracketed tournament and place 4, thats 25% 

To place in the top 4 for boys’ state, you have to get through regionals, semi state, and then win a minimum of 3 matches against 16 others that went through the same kind of qualifiers. 

And yes, I’d rather only place top 4 in a bracket smaller than 16, top 6 for anything between 16-31 man bracket and top 8 for 32 man bracket. Placing top 8 in 1-15 man brackets (without a qualifier) doesn’t seem useful. I also come from a state where they only placed top 4 at the state tournament.

The math is simple… if you have 415 (which is ALL the assessed wrestlers) wrestlers and 112 get medals, that’s ~25%. The lower the participants and the higher the medal count, the percentage of placing wrestlers increases. 

My 2 cents on 8 placers is it's a good thing for future recruitment. I understand some weight classes could be placing everyone or almost everyone but when I go to recruite next season if I have 7 wrestlers and get 5 or more of them on the podium I can use that when I'm trying to encourage more girls for next season and bragging rights for those girls in school. The more they can brag about their accomplishments the better for us. It's only the parents and coaches who complain it's watered down. We all know if you take 7th as a wrestler you're telling all your friends you're the 7th toughest, baddest girl in the whole state. Let them brag and get something for their hard work.

I see both sides.  I agree that it may seem watered down a little and restricting participation is not ideal.  However the limitations of gym size and time restraints cause the restriction.  If you move it to a 2 day tournament you would get less participation.  If you move it to a larger venue then the cost rises dramatically.  All aspects must me looked at.  Sometimes a compromise must be made.  I know in todays society we don't like compromise but that is how things expand and get done.  

I remember many moons ago I was against the expansion of the state tournament to 32 participants, and placing top 8. I argued that it watered down the state tournament.  I was used to only the top 4 medaling in KY.  (yes I'm that old).  It ended up that I was wrong, wrestling grew dramatically.  (we only had about 70 teams when we started this)

Now when KHSAA finally decides to sanction girls wrestling then a qualifying event will be mandated.  Until then, I believe as a community we are doing what is best, with the barriers we have.

On 1/27/2023 at 11:36 AM, grappler-of-old said:

Just curious:

Do we have any numbers on girls throughout the state?

I don't seem to see the numbers in Nky as I see in the rest of the state. 

Based of entries to girls state:

Region 1:

I counted 9 teams with 20 from region 5. 

Boone  3

Campbell  1

Conner  1

Cooper  3

HIghlands  6

Newport  2

Ryle  2

Simon Kenton  1

Walton Verona  1

But Nky is still behind on numbers. 

24 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

I counted 9 teams with 20 from region 5. 

Boone  3

Campbell  1

Conner  1

Cooper  3

HIghlands  6

Newport  2

Ryle  2

Simon Kenton  1

Walton Verona  1

But Nky is still behind on numbers. 

I missed ryle. 

It looks like we limited the field to get to a one day tournament, but then we screwed ourselves by eliminating true wrestle backs. 
 

It’s crazy to me that all quarterfinalists get to medal, and anyone that loses early can’t wrestle back. When was this decided, and by who?  It puts way too much value in our seeding process, and protecting records.

 I understand the 5 match rule. But we would never do this to the boys. 

50 minutes ago, gator1 said:

It looks like we limited the field to get to a one day tournament, but then we screwed ourselves by eliminating true wrestle backs. 
 

It’s crazy to me that all quarterfinalists get to medal, and anyone that loses early can’t wrestle back. When was this decided, and by who?  It puts way too much value in our seeding process, and protecting records.

 I understand the 5 match rule. But we would never do this to the boys. 

It wouldn’t happen for the guys because to state the obvious….. IT IS SANCTIONED.

this is the best format we’ve been able to come up with to give the women of KY an opportunity. We had to go through and find the BEST option to give kids a chance under the circumstances we had to deal with. 
 

Wrestle backs would give the opportunity, but we also are limited to 5 Matches. Wrestle backs do not offer the opportunity to finish out as most would run into 5 match rule in the semi finals or just before….

instead of bashing it, why not offer a solution that makes sense. We didn’t just pull some crap out of our rear end. This has been something we’ve had to look at since Christmas. 

myself, Teater, Ashbrook, Che and Spencer aren’t hard to find. 

So I will say that it was my idea to use these brackets. With the numbers and situation, I felt this was the best option. 

That being said, I never try to make any decision alone or without options. I reached out to several coaches and presented multiple options. Of those options, it was felt this was the best way to procede.  

From day one with girls wrestling we have had a main goal or building numbers and getting sanctioned.  We have built the numbers and barring any unforeseen circumstances,  it will be sanctioned at the next boc meeting. 

We also have pushed to add to the kywca membership and encourage all coaches at all levels to not just join, but participate and engage with coaches and bring ideas to the table to help advance our sport in Kentucky.  

We have also expanded to two section reps from one. We did this so more coaches felt they had a voice and interact. 

From a complete coaches contact list, to social media, to clinics, and meetings, we are doing all we can to make sure everyone has a voice. We never want anyone to feel as if they cant present an idea or to feel that things are decided by any one person.

Good luck to every wrestler this weekend and every coach. I truly hope that all the amazing things happening with wrestling in Kentucky are not continuously over shadowed by negativity and that the good far outweighs the bad in the overall scheme of it all. 

Best regards,  

Scotty Teater

One way to solve the 9-24 brackets is a pool to bracket tourney.  I know that is not how the boys do it, but they do it in the Olympics.  A 24 girl weight class can be done with no 5 match rule problems. Over 24 that's another animal. 

18 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

One way to solve the 9-24 brackets is a pool to bracket tourney.  I know that is not how the boys do it, but they do it in the Olympics.  A 24 girl weight class can be done with no 5 match rule problems. Over 24 that's another animal. 

 

There we go GOO.  Good thinking.

56 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

One way to solve the 9-24 brackets is a pool to bracket tourney.  I know that is not how the boys do it, but they do it in the Olympics.  A 24 girl weight class can be done with no 5 match rule problems. Over 24 that's another animal. 

 

Just to clarify, those options were looked at. What we went with is just what we felt was the best option. 

3 hours ago, halfhalfhalf said:

instead of bashing it, why not offer a solution that makes sense. We didn’t just pull some crap out of our rear end. This has been something we’ve had to look at since Christmas. 

myself, Teater, Ashbrook, Che and Spencer aren’t hard to find. 

 

Settle down.  I asked who decided it and when, and now you've given me a few names.  Thanks for that.  But I still wonder about the system of decision making.  For example, middle school isn't sanctioned, but we have a process in place for these types of decisions to be made, with a board of officers, official votes, etc.  Is there something like that for girls wrestling that I just wasn't aware of?

3 hours ago, halfhalfhalf said:

Wrestle backs do not offer the opportunity to finish out as most would run into 5 match rule in the semi finals or just before…. 

OK...  In a 32 man bracket, IF you lost in the first or second round without a bye (worst case scenario) and then won 4 in a row, you'd have locked in top-8 in this situation, even if you have to forfeit out due to the 5-match rule.  But in the system we're planning to use, you are already locked out of the top-8 as soon as you lost that first match.  Even if it was against the #1 seed.  So I would prefer we just let wrestle backs happen until they can't. 

If it were your athlete, would you rather be forced to forfeit out and take 8th place, or would you rather have no chance to wrestle back to the top 8 after losing in the first round?  This just reminds me of boys semi-states during COVID, when only top-2 go to states and wrestle-backs were meaningless. 

2 hours ago, coachteater said:

Just to clarify, those options were looked at. What we went with is just what we felt was the best option. 

I hesitated to post, because I know I am by far not the smartest berry in the bunch.  Just wanted to give some help if possible. 

I can’t wait for State! There couple brackets that am looking at and there are stack! Like 152 and 145…. Anyone of those girls can win it!! Plus’s seen the Messerly’s make history!! 

Coach Teater and the coaches throughout the state have done an excellent job of promoting and growing girls wrestling. This format may not have been acceptable to everyone, but when you try to please everybody in this day and age, you'll just end up in a mental ward.

That being said, the young lady that our school sent lost to one of the finalists in her 1st match. She then went on to win her consolation bracket. She was understandably upset and disappointed when she found out that she was not going to place.

I'm sure that there are similar situations with other young ladies. Maybe GOO was right with the pool idea. However, that format makes for an extremely long day and can't be done with over 400 competitors and limited mat space.

This all could be moot next year with sanctioning by the KHSAA. Maybe I'm biased because of my closeness with the kids on the team, specifically the family of this young lady. 

Thank you, Coach T, gator, Ashbrook, Che, and Spencer for trying to accomplish an impossible task with limited resources. The goal is to grow this sport and in having a State Championship for all of these girls to strive for is a major step in the right direction.

3 hours ago, Tbagnky said:

I'm sure that there are similar situations with other young ladies. Maybe GOO was right with the pool idea. However, that format makes for an extremely long day and can't be done with over 400 competitors and limited mat space.

This is incorrect if you have a 24 person wt class.  A pool tourney will have 32 matches whereas a 32 man bracket ran the way it was done it had 42 matches. 

Pool tourneys almost always run faster than full bracket tourneys.