Just wanted to say congrats to all, and I feel like officials, coaches, etc. really did the best they could with the hand they were dealt. Having state finals in a high school gym is unforgivable, but those who could give effort for these kids did so.

Is Paducah Tilghman on track to start a new mini dynasty? 4 state champions. That is Union County numbers. Hats off to them. I overheard their head coach speaking to his team, and other coaches a few times, and he seemed like a very good person.

Some thoughts on the state tournament:

Venue: same issues as before. Great facility but not a good host for an event like the state wrestling tournament. Too crowded. Limited views depending on where you sit. I am thankful they pulled the stands out for the finals. The finals were actually done well. The first day taking place during school is just ridiculous. Just another reason we need this event at an arena.

Wrestling: The current post season format leads to the most competitive state tournament. Not much fluff. Some classes were an absolute battle just to place.  A few classes had very highly ranked wrestlers fail to place or place much lower than their ranking. At least couple of former #1s failed to place. Most of the finals matches were competitive, some a lot closer than expected. Several very exciting ones. 120, 132, 138, 190, 215, and 285 were barn burners. Have to give a shout out to TJ Meyer for making things very interesting in a finals match against Raney that many thought would be a blow out. I also have to mention Uriah Virzi. He was basically left for dead after being penalized for locking hands then giving up a reversal in the final period and then trailing 3-1.  But a reversal and huge lift and pin later, he avenged his two losses via pin to Kizer to become a 2x champ. Overall, I was very satisfied with the wrestling, especially the finals.

Now for the bad part: Officiating. I know it's the same old story. Overall, in most matches, the officiating was not that bad. However, there were some absolutely egregious calls. Text book calls that were blown. Literally text book; the rule is pictured in the rule book. Some of these calls occurred in the finals, unfortunately. The PT coach even pulled the book out in the finals on a call that I thought was clearly incorrect. I knew exactly where he was going in the book because there is a picture of the rule. There were multiple examples of pictured rules being called incorrectly. Then we have examples of refs deciding the match.  A stalling call in the last 10 seconds of a state championship match? I know its not the first time, but come on! It would have been decided in OT. I also saw examples of an assistant official talking the other official into changing his call and the same person, who was not even officiating a particular match, trying to signal to an official to wave off a takedown. That's just unacceptable. We don't have a lot of officials so maybe this just what we have to work with.

Overall, it was a fun weekend with some good wrestling and a NEW team champion. The 7 year streak of Union County is over. Will PT stay on top?

19 minutes ago, BroOfCoach said:

Some thoughts on the state tournament:

Venue: same issues as before. Great facility but not a good host for an event like the state wrestling tournament. Too crowded. Limited views depending on where you sit. I am thankful they pulled the stands out for the finals. The finals were actually done well. The first day taking place during school is just ridiculous. Just another reason we need this event at an arena.

Wrestling: The current post season format leads to the most competitive state tournament. Not much fluff. Some classes were an absolute battle just to place.  A few classes had very highly ranked wrestlers fail to place or place much lower than their ranking. At least couple of former #1s failed to place. Most of the finals matches were competitive, some a lot closer than expected. Several very exciting ones. 120, 132, 138, 190, 215, and 285 were barn burners. Have to give a shout out to TJ Meyer for making things very interesting in a finals match against Raney that many thought would be a blow out. I also have to mention Uriah Virzi. He was basically left for dead after being penalized for locking hands then giving up a reversal in the final period and then trailing 3-1.  But a reversal and huge lift and pin later, he avenged his two losses via pin to Kizer to become a 2x champ. Overall, I was very satisfied with the wrestling, especially the finals.

Now for the bad part: Officiating. I know it's the same old story. Overall, in most matches, the officiating was not that bad. However, there were some absolutely egregious calls. Text book calls that were blown. Literally text book; the rule is pictured in the rule book. Some of these calls occurred in the finals, unfortunately. The PT coach even pulled the book out in the finals on a call that I thought was clearly incorrect. I knew exactly where he was going in the book because there is a picture of the rule. There were multiple examples of pictured rules being called incorrectly. Then we have examples of refs deciding the match.  A stalling call in the last 10 seconds of a state championship match? I know its not the first time, but come on! It would have been decided in OT. I also saw examples of an assistant official talking the other official into changing his call and the same person, who was not even officiating a particular match, trying to signal to an official to wave off a takedown. That's just unacceptable. We don't have a lot of officials so maybe this just what we have to work with.

Overall, it was a fun weekend with some good wrestling and a NEW team champion. The 7 year streak of Union County is over. Will PT stay on top?

 

I agree with this 99%. Most exciting finals I have seen in a long time in KY. As far as officiating it's a mess. It's bad for wrestlers and bad for fans and trying to grow the sport. Pretty sure I saw 10 different calls on out of bounds. Zero consistency on what a takedown was. Fraziers takedown in finals was called a takedown in 20 matches before but when a rule book was pulled out showing a takedown It wasn't all of a sudden. I have no dog in the fight so I didn't care either way but I still would like to know what a takedown is.
 

As far as TJ Meyer match if you want to see something really crazy go back and watch the match in the third period. The ref was directly in front of them and Raney would stand up and try and touch hands to the mat to get locked hands call 3-4 times. From my understanding that is unsportsmanlike and 1 point but instead they gave locked hands which is a 2 point swing. It is clear in the video on flo if you would like to go watch for some entertainment! 

As far as the 1% I don't agree with is venue. Does It suck it's at a HS yes but it was done extremely well imo. The issue is the stands were not full for the finals which is pretty embarrassing. Even Union seemed drastically lighter than their normal crowd. I don't see KHSAA pushing for a venue until there is a safety concern. If you want to change venues, sell out the HS so they are forced to. 

All in all the depth seems to be growing and there were a ton of great matches. 

-Nathan Boston

1 hour ago, Elite Training Center KY said:

I agree with this 99%. Most exciting finals I have seen in a long time in KY. As far as officiating it's a mess. It's bad for wrestlers and bad for fans and trying to grow the sport. Pretty sure I saw 10 different calls on out of bounds. Zero consistency on what a takedown was. Fraziers takedown in finals was called a takedown in 20 matches before but when a rule book was pulled out showing a takedown It wasn't all of a sudden. I have no dog in the fight so I didn't care either way but I still would like to know what a takedown is.
 

As far as TJ Meyer match if you want to see something really crazy go back and watch the match in the third period. The ref was directly in front of them and Raney would stand up and try and touch hands to the mat to get locked hands call 3-4 times. From my understanding that is unsportsmanlike and 1 point but instead they gave locked hands which is a 2 point swing. It is clear in the video on flo if you would like to go watch for some entertainment! 

As far as the 1% I don't agree with is venue. Does It suck it's at a HS yes but it was done extremely well imo. The issue is the stands were not full for the finals which is pretty embarrassing. Even Union seemed drastically lighter than their normal crowd. I don't see KHSAA pushing for a venue until there is a safety concern. If you want to change venues, sell out the HS so they are forced to. 

All in all the depth seems to be growing and there were a ton of great matches. 

-Nathan Boston

 

A wrestler mentioned to me that they had once been called for unsportsmanlike conduct for doing the same thing. I was not aware of that rule but it's just another example of poor officiating. It seems they simply do not know some rules. Man, what an upset that would have been!

As far as the venue, I do agree it was ran well. I just don't think it was a good venue until the finals. It was an excellent finals. If the bottom bleachers could be out at all times it would be much better but then we wouldn't have enough room for mats. I do think it will be at a different venue soon. I've heard Alltech again as a contender. :/

Couple things…

1) if Alltech is back in play (which sounds like it is next year) then the KHSAA can’t complain about money. There are multiple better venues for a fraction of the cost.

2) If a high school gym isn’t packed for the finals, it’s going to look really bad at Alltech.

I’m left with the conclusion that KHSAA is rich and lazy - caring more about their own convenience than properly giving the athletes what they deserve.

Would love to see everyone on the mat that wants to be an official! Don't complain about the problem, be part of the solution! Get your liscense next season and get out there and bust your but for 12 hour plus days all season. Some times with no extra official to give you a break

https://form.jotform.com/230434326549052

The year is wrong on the placer plaque’s says 2022

Here's a fun post-state thought - found this gem in my phone from Youth Regions, 2017.  Count them - three (3), 2023 State Champs!  (Powell, Herron and Ferree).  That was heck of a bracket!   Great job and congrats to 3 great wrestlers and even better kids!  Well done gentlemen.  Thank you for your contributions to KY Wrestling and best of luck on your next adventures!

I saw Meyer stall and run for 6 mins. He did everything he could to keep the match close. Well everything but wrestle. Raney was never in any danger in that match. 

Love those throwback photos from youth/ms. Awesome stuff!  I’ve seen some absolutely ridiculous podium pics from the old “young” days. 

3 hours ago, damonluttrell said:

The year is wrong on the placer plaque’s says 2022

Coaches Association is already having the problem corrected. We did not ope the boxes till at state and immediately saw the mistake,  at that point it was too late. The company is making new plates and will be sent to coaches asap

18 minutes ago, El cucuy said:

I saw Meyer stall and run for 6 mins. He did everything he could to keep the match close. Well everything but wrestle. Raney was never in any danger in that match. 

I saw a kid that was outmatched giving himself a chance to win. He hit multiple attacks and also stayed in very good position. Did he stall? Maybe some but he got called for It. He definitely didn't stall all 6 minutes. I'm glad he's only a sophomore. Many years of battles left and maybe another national caliber guy in KY!

9 hours ago, BroOfCoach said:

Some thoughts on the state tournament:

Venue: same issues as before. Great facility but not a good host for an event like the state wrestling tournament. Too crowded. Limited views depending on where you sit. I am thankful they pulled the stands out for the finals. The finals were actually done well. The first day taking place during school is just ridiculous. Just another reason we need this event at an arena.

Wrestling: The current post season format leads to the most competitive state tournament. Not much fluff. Some classes were an absolute battle just to place.  A few classes had very highly ranked wrestlers fail to place or place much lower than their ranking. At least couple of former #1s failed to place. Most of the finals matches were competitive, some a lot closer than expected. Several very exciting ones. 120, 132, 138, 190, 215, and 285 were barn burners. Have to give a shout out to TJ Meyer for making things very interesting in a finals match against Raney that many thought would be a blow out. I also have to mention Uriah Virzi. He was basically left for dead after being penalized for locking hands then giving up a reversal in the final period and then trailing 3-1.  But a reversal and huge lift and pin later, he avenged his two losses via pin to Kizer to become a 2x champ. Overall, I was very satisfied with the wrestling, especially the finals.

Now for the bad part: Officiating. I know it's the same old story. Overall, in most matches, the officiating was not that bad. However, there were some absolutely egregious calls. Text book calls that were blown. Literally text book; the rule is pictured in the rule book. Some of these calls occurred in the finals, unfortunately. The PT coach even pulled the book out in the finals on a call that I thought was clearly incorrect. I knew exactly where he was going in the book because there is a picture of the rule. There were multiple examples of pictured rules being called incorrectly. Then we have examples of refs deciding the match.  A stalling call in the last 10 seconds of a state championship match? I know its not the first time, but come on! It would have been decided in OT. I also saw examples of an assistant official talking the other official into changing his call and the same person, who was not even officiating a particular match, trying to signal to an official to wave off a takedown. That's just unacceptable. We don't have a lot of officials so maybe this just what we have to work with.

Overall, it was a fun weekend with some good wrestling and a NEW team champion. The 7 year streak of Union County is over. Will PT stay on top?

 

I all just love these post year after year.  Its nice to see coaches and fans who have no concept of the rules and how they apply comment as Sunday Morning QB.  Coaches and fans always want stalling calls as long as it not against their kids.  Or officials should only apply the rules when the fans and coaches think that it's appropriate for their enjoyment/entertainment so that it's better for them as spectators. You all must think officials sit in the locker-room prior to the tournaments or finals and draw squares to see which kid to ENFORCE the letter of the rule against and which kids they can look the other way.  Rule 7-6 ART 2... When a referee recognizes stalling occurring at any time and in any position, the offender shall be warned and thereafter violations shall be penalized when stalling recurs.  These provisions require the referee to penalize stalling without hesitation....  I type that again, without hesitation.... Not for your enjoyment or to take the match into overtime.   Let's talk about Coaching, teach your kids to wrestle, not avoid contact, don't back up 30ft when being pressured.  Sounds like this is a coaching issue and not an officiating issue.  Page 85 and page 86 of the NFHS Wrestling and Case Book and Manual.  Wait, what you say, there is a NFHS Case Book and Manual for Wrestling?  I bet there is some good information in there. Section 6; 1.  Stalling must be removed from wrestling.  The responsibility for doing this is shared by COACHES, WRESTLERS and Referees.  The COACH is responsible for TEACHING an aggressive style of wrestling, requiring wrestlers to work for a fall at all times.  The wrestlers shall avoid the use of stalling tactics and make an honest attempt to wrestle aggressively, whether in the top, bottom or natural position.  The referee shall be firm in enforcing the letter of the rule and the spirit of the rule and consistently penalize stalling infraction without hesitation.  All three groups must work together to ensure that wrestling is exciting and interesting sport.  Well sounds like the official did his part and the wrestler and coach didn't do their part.  I guess that's just the hand some of these officials are delt with here in KY.  #4, what there is more to this story?  Why yes coach, let's educate you.  #4 page 86; Factors that contribute to stalling are varied. Every effort must be made by both COACHES and REFEREES to discourage such tactics. (Wait, didn't you just read that?) In the neutral position, it is the responsibility of both wrestlers, regardless of the SCORE or TIME remaining, to make every effort to stay within the 10ft circle, to make contact, to maneuver to set up a takedown, and to follow up by attempting a takedown.  Referee should use commands "Contact, Center, Action" when appropriate to communicate that action needs to occur by either wrestler.  A wrestler may circle to set up the takedown, BUT BACKING AWAY from the opponent, avoiding contact or playing the edge of the mat are examples of stalling.   I'm having difficulty finding where it says to ignore stalling and let it be match be considered in OT.  Didn't the aggressor do is part by trying to wrestle aggressively?  Yet the other kid avoided wrestling so we should award him another period?  That's just unacceptable that we don't have good coaches here in KY, maybe that's what we have to work with?

I will NOT even go into the responsibilities of an assistant referees and their use. Sounds like some calls didn't go your way and you're just sniveling because no one else will listen.  4 set of eyes are better than two and multiple angles looking at the results of action are better than two.

Pictures in a book, just because a picture is in a book doesn't mean that is what played out on the mat, one coach is always going to see it is way.  So, two officials looking at the same move and they talk about it, and they call didn't go his way.  I only saw 3 people in that 28ft circle, just where were you sitting again?  How many years do you have on a whistle and at what level and experience.  Just so we know your qualifications other than a Sunday Morning QB.  I was 100 ft away and I couldn't see it all that well to make an unbiased decision myself.

Here is the link to the site so you can get a rule book and case book for next year.  NFHS  

Someone else suggested and posted a link to become an official to stop bitching and be part of the solution.  But I suggest you will not and just continue to be a keyboard warrior because you have 20 years of officiating.  You're probably one of the coaches who disappears till fall again and doesn't keep his kids on the mat and travel, so they get better.  You'd be amazed how many KY officials travel to national level events all over the US, many of them do college while the others at the state tournament do some very high-level national tournaments, FARGO, VA Beach the Stampede.  You F-up at these events you don't return.  But hey, you know what's right looks like I guess.         

1 hour ago, coachteater said:

Coaches Association is already having the problem corrected. We did not ope the boxes till at state and immediately saw the mistake,  at that point it was too late. The company is making new plates and will be sent to coaches asap

Thanks coach. I appreciate you

41 minutes ago, JackFlash said:

I all just love these post year after year.  Its nice to see coaches and fans who have no concept of the rules and how they apply comment as Sunday Morning QB.  Coaches and fans always want stalling calls as long as it not against their kids.  Or officials should only apply the rules when the fans and coaches think that it's appropriate for their enjoyment/entertainment so that it's better for them as spectators. You all must think officials sit in the locker-room prior to the tournaments or finals and draw squares to see which kid to ENFORCE the letter of the rule against and which kids they can look the other way.  Rule 7-6 ART 2... When a referee recognizes stalling occurring at any time and in any position, the offender shall be warned and thereafter violations shall be penalized when stalling recurs.  These provisions require the referee to penalize stalling without hesitation....  I type that again, without hesitation.... Not for your enjoyment or to take the match into overtime.   Let's talk about Coaching, teach your kids to wrestle, not avoid contact, don't back up 30ft when being pressured.  Sounds like this is a coaching issue and not an officiating issue.  Page 85 and page 86 of the NFHS Wrestling and Case Book and Manual.  Wait, what you say, there is a NFHS Case Book and Manual for Wrestling?  I bet there is some good information in there. Section 6; 1.  Stalling must be removed from wrestling.  The responsibility for doing this is shared by COACHES, WRESTLERS and Referees.  The COACH is responsible for TEACHING an aggressive style of wrestling, requiring wrestlers to work for a fall at all times.  The wrestlers shall avoid the use of stalling tactics and make an honest attempt to wrestle aggressively, whether in the top, bottom or natural position.  The referee shall be firm in enforcing the letter of the rule and the spirit of the rule and consistently penalize stalling infraction without hesitation.  All three groups must work together to ensure that wrestling is exciting and interesting sport.  Well sounds like the official did his part and the wrestler and coach didn't do their part.  I guess that's just the hand some of these officials are delt with here in KY.  #4, what there is more to this story?  Why yes coach, let's educate you.  #4 page 86; Factors that contribute to stalling are varied. Every effort must be made by both COACHES and REFEREES to discourage such tactics. (Wait, didn't you just read that?) In the neutral position, it is the responsibility of both wrestlers, regardless of the SCORE or TIME remaining, to make every effort to stay within the 10ft circle, to make contact, to maneuver to set up a takedown, and to follow up by attempting a takedown.  Referee should use commands "Contact, Center, Action" when appropriate to communicate that action needs to occur by either wrestler.  A wrestler may circle to set up the takedown, BUT BACKING AWAY from the opponent, avoiding contact or playing the edge of the mat are examples of stalling.   I'm having difficulty finding where it says to ignore stalling and let it be match be considered in OT.  Didn't the aggressor do is part by trying to wrestle aggressively?  Yet the other kid avoided wrestling so we should award him another period?  That's just unacceptable that we don't have good coaches here in KY, maybe that's what we have to work with?

I will NOT even go into the responsibilities of an assistant referees and their use. Sounds like some calls didn't go your way and you're just sniveling because no one else will listen.  4 set of eyes are better than two and multiple angles looking at the results of action are better than two.

Pictures in a book, just because a picture is in a book doesn't mean that is what played out on the mat, one coach is always going to see it is way.  So, two officials looking at the same move and they talk about it, and they call didn't go his way.  I only saw 3 people in that 28ft circle, just where were you sitting again?  How many years do you have on a whistle and at what level and experience.  Just so we know your qualifications other than a Sunday Morning QB.  I was 100 ft away and I couldn't see it all that well to make an unbiased decision myself.

Here is the link to the site so you can get a rule book and case book for next year.  NFHS  

 

Someone else suggested and posted a link to become an official to stop bitching and be part of the solution.  But I suggest you will not and just continue to be a keyboard warrior because you have 20 years of officiating.  You're probably one of the coaches who disappears till fall again and doesn't keep his kids on the mat and travel, so they get better.  You'd be amazed how many KY officials travel to national level events all over the US, many of them do college while the others at the state tournament do some very high-level national tournaments, FARGO, VA Beach the Stampede.  You F-up at these events you don't return.  But hey, you know what's right looks like I guess.         

So you're the ref that made the call!?

11 hours ago, BroOfCoach said:

Now for the bad part: Officiating. I know it's the same old story. Overall, in most matches, the officiating was not that bad. However, there were some absolutely egregious calls. Text book calls that were blown. Literally text book; the rule is pictured in the rule book. Some of these calls occurred in the finals, unfortunately. The PT coach even pulled the book out in the finals on a call that I thought was clearly incorrect. I knew exactly where he was going in the book because there is a picture of the rule. There were multiple examples of pictured rules being called incorrectly. Then we have examples of refs deciding the match.  A stalling call in the last 10 seconds of a state championship match? I know its not the first time, but come on! It would have been decided in OT. I also saw examples of an assistant official talking the other official into changing his call and the same person, who was not even officiating a particular match, trying to signal to an official to wave off a takedown. That's just unacceptable. We don't have a lot of officials so maybe this just what we have to work with.

Overall, it was a fun weekend with some good wrestling and a NEW team champion. The 7 year streak of Union County is over. Will PT stay on top?

 

Wow I was thinking just the opposite, this makes my 42nd state tournament attended (3 as a wrestler, 4 as a spectator and 35 as a coach).  I thought this was one of the best officiated state tournament that I have been to.  Stalling is always difficult to call, but it seemed universal for all officials this weekend.  Calling stalling in the last 10 seconds of a finals match stinks but when you back up for 10-20 seconds its the call you get.  Remember this would not be the 1st stall call so this wrestler was stalling earlier in the match also. 

As for the assistant ref.  His job is to help the head official make to correct call.  That is what we all want is the correct call made.  If the head official changes the call then good, it was probably a close call where he did not have the exact angle to see the action.  Therefore he takes the assistant officials re-adjustment.  Good for them.  

The particular call you are referring to where the book was taken out.  I also told the person next to me, "He is taking the book out because there is a picture in the book".  When they didn't change the call, I thought Hmm.  They saw something that I couldn't see way up here in the bleachers. 

Now for the coach:  Wow was he severely inappropriate, running into the circle, not signaling the official that he wanted a conference at the table, then yelling the entire time.  Then yelling "That is a takedown" when the final takedown was gotten.  The official was extremely patient with this coach.  I am certain that if one particular official was officiating that match the coach would have been removed.  

Just to make things clear.  

****These ore the opinions of GOO nothing more and nothing less.  You can take them or leave them, in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter. ***

3 hours ago, JackFlash said:

I all just love these post year after year.  Its nice to see coaches and fans who have no concept of the rules and how they apply comment as Sunday Morning QB.  Coaches and fans always want stalling calls as long as it not against their kids.  Or officials should only apply the rules when the fans and coaches think that it's appropriate for their enjoyment/entertainment so that it's better for them as spectators. You all must think officials sit in the locker-room prior to the tournaments or finals and draw squares to see which kid to ENFORCE the letter of the rule against and which kids they can look the other way.  Rule 7-6 ART 2... When a referee recognizes stalling occurring at any time and in any position, the offender shall be warned and thereafter violations shall be penalized when stalling recurs.  These provisions require the referee to penalize stalling without hesitation....  I type that again, without hesitation.... Not for your enjoyment or to take the match into overtime.   Let's talk about Coaching, teach your kids to wrestle, not avoid contact, don't back up 30ft when being pressured.  Sounds like this is a coaching issue and not an officiating issue.  Page 85 and page 86 of the NFHS Wrestling and Case Book and Manual.  Wait, what you say, there is a NFHS Case Book and Manual for Wrestling?  I bet there is some good information in there. Section 6; 1.  Stalling must be removed from wrestling.  The responsibility for doing this is shared by COACHES, WRESTLERS and Referees.  The COACH is responsible for TEACHING an aggressive style of wrestling, requiring wrestlers to work for a fall at all times.  The wrestlers shall avoid the use of stalling tactics and make an honest attempt to wrestle aggressively, whether in the top, bottom or natural position.  The referee shall be firm in enforcing the letter of the rule and the spirit of the rule and consistently penalize stalling infraction without hesitation.  All three groups must work together to ensure that wrestling is exciting and interesting sport.  Well sounds like the official did his part and the wrestler and coach didn't do their part.  I guess that's just the hand some of these officials are delt with here in KY.  #4, what there is more to this story?  Why yes coach, let's educate you.  #4 page 86; Factors that contribute to stalling are varied. Every effort must be made by both COACHES and REFEREES to discourage such tactics. (Wait, didn't you just read that?) In the neutral position, it is the responsibility of both wrestlers, regardless of the SCORE or TIME remaining, to make every effort to stay within the 10ft circle, to make contact, to maneuver to set up a takedown, and to follow up by attempting a takedown.  Referee should use commands "Contact, Center, Action" when appropriate to communicate that action needs to occur by either wrestler.  A wrestler may circle to set up the takedown, BUT BACKING AWAY from the opponent, avoiding contact or playing the edge of the mat are examples of stalling.   I'm having difficulty finding where it says to ignore stalling and let it be match be considered in OT.  Didn't the aggressor do is part by trying to wrestle aggressively?  Yet the other kid avoided wrestling so we should award him another period?  That's just unacceptable that we don't have good coaches here in KY, maybe that's what we have to work with?

I will NOT even go into the responsibilities of an assistant referees and their use. Sounds like some calls didn't go your way and you're just sniveling because no one else will listen.  4 set of eyes are better than two and multiple angles looking at the results of action are better than two.

Pictures in a book, just because a picture is in a book doesn't mean that is what played out on the mat, one coach is always going to see it is way.  So, two officials looking at the same move and they talk about it, and they call didn't go his way.  I only saw 3 people in that 28ft circle, just where were you sitting again?  How many years do you have on a whistle and at what level and experience.  Just so we know your qualifications other than a Sunday Morning QB.  I was 100 ft away and I couldn't see it all that well to make an unbiased decision myself.

Here is the link to the site so you can get a rule book and case book for next year.  NFHS  

 

Someone else suggested and posted a link to become an official to stop bitching and be part of the solution.  But I suggest you will not and just continue to be a keyboard warrior because you have 20 years of officiating.  You're probably one of the coaches who disappears till fall again and doesn't keep his kids on the mat and travel, so they get better.  You'd be amazed how many KY officials travel to national level events all over the US, many of them do college while the others at the state tournament do some very high-level national tournaments, FARGO, VA Beach the Stampede.  You F-up at these events you don't return.  But hey, you know what's right looks like I guess.         

First off, my interactions/experiences with 95% of the refs this year have been a positive. Mostly human error type calls that we just have to live with - but nothing egregious. I was bummed when I saw they didn’t get their chance to show their improvements from last year. I thought a few deserved it.

However, I remember one official in particular manufacturing conflict with coaches and then blaming coaches for the conflict/friction that didn’t exist until that point. The same official stated he wants input and better communication between refs and coaches, but when coaches voice concerns and questions, he has condescending retorts or they fall on deaf ears. It’s hard to build trust in that environment. What could build trust and accountability might be a year long  evaluation process for officials like other states to ensure the highest quality/consistent refs get the whistle at significant tournaments. There are refs across the state that have good relationships with coaches - regardless how perfect they are at making calls. My issue are those officials who want to maintain friction for no reason, play the blame game, and have an unquenchable thirst for power.
 

Twenty years of experience doing something doesn’t automatically result in higher quality. A lot of people are mediocre at what they do for long periods of time.

Lastly, I’m pretty sure you don’t want to play the experience game with certain coaches. As a competitor and coach, you have to know the rules like the ref. How else can you expect success? There are multiple coaches in this state who have competed AND coached in the tournaments you boasted about officiating. So, I think the pissing contest needs to end and you can stop trying to justify yourself. 

Honest introspection and a desire to be better and make adjustments could assuage some of the inadequacies we all have - not blaming others as the default position. Quality refs, successful coaches and competitors do this consistently over the long term (on top of competing).

21 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

Wow I was thinking just the opposite, this makes my 42nd state tournament attended (3 as a wrestler, 4 as a spectator and 35 as a coach).  I thought this was one of the best officiated state tournament that I have been to.  Stalling is always difficult to call, but it seemed universal for all officials this weekend.  Calling stalling in the last 10 seconds of a finals match stinks but when you back up for 10-20 seconds its the call you get.  Remember this would not be the 1st stall call so this wrestler was stalling earlier in the match also. 

As for the assistant ref.  His job is to help the head official make to correct call.  That is what we all want is the correct call made.  If the head official changes the call then good, it was probably a close call where he did not have the exact angle to see the action.  Therefore he takes the assistant officials re-adjustment.  Good for them.  

The particular call you are referring to where the book was taken out.  I also told the person next to me, "He is taking the book out because there is a picture in the book".  When they didn't change the call, I thought Hmm.  They saw something that I couldn't see way up here in the bleachers. 

Now for the coach:  Wow was he severely inappropriate, running into the circle, not signaling the official that he wanted a conference at the table, then yelling the entire time.  Then yelling "That is a takedown" when the final takedown was gotten.  The official was extremely patient with this coach.  I am certain that if one particular official was officiating that match the coach would have been removed.  

Just to make things clear.  

****These ore the opinions of GOO nothing more and nothing less.  You can take them or leave them, in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter. ***

Nothing but respect for your opinion. No issues there.

As for the officiating, like I said, it wasn't that bad overall.

My problem with the stalling call in the 285 final was I didn't think he was backing up intentionally. In fact, I just re-watched the last part of that match and the St. X wrestler had double under hooks and was pushing the Madison Southern wrestler while he (Madison Southern) was circling the mat. I don't know what else he could have done. Watch it and let me know what you think.

As for the rule book being pulled in the finals, I said the same exact thing as you said to the guy next to you. There was an issue in the CIF finals last year or the year before when the same rule was in question. It was a huge controversy.

Let’s be honest, in a 285 match that is 1-1 after six minutes there was more than two opportunities to call stalling. Calling it with 10 seconds left when a kid is double hooked seems out of whack.  The whole match was one big stall fest. Not questioning that there was stalling but why pick that moment?

As for the assistant ref, I did not see a single instance where the refs conferred and then changed a call. There were many times I thought they should and would after talking and saw many times where the body language of the assistant ref seemed to suggest that he did not agree, but not once did I see a call changed. Maybe it happened and I just missed it.

.

25 minutes ago, BroOfCoach said:

Nothing but respect for your opinion. No issues there.

As for the officiating, like I said, it wasn't that bad overall.

My problem with the stalling call in the 285 final was I didn't think he was backing up intentionally. In fact, I just re-watched the last part of that match and the St. X wrestler had double under hooks and was pushing the Madison Southern wrestler while he (Madison Southern) was circling the mat. I don't know what else he could have done. Watch it and let me know what you think.

As for the rule book being pulled in the finals, I said the same exact thing as you said to the guy next to you. There was an issue in the CIF finals last year or the year before when the same rule was in question. It was a huge controversy.

 

I was watching that in particular match and was rooting for the MS kid.  I and the person next to me both stated that if he didn't do anything offensive after going out of bounds he was going to be called for stalling.  I saw the underhooks in and him being pushed and knew the call was coming.  He didn't clamp down on the underhooks, and it didn't seem that he was trying to slide out of the hooks.  I wanted the overtime but understood the call, I think the call should have come when he went out of bounds prior to the call, which I don't believe would have changed the outcome.  

I absolutely hate when these type of calls decide a match, but there has to be 6 minutes of aggression, if not the call can come at any time.  No two officials will call it exactly the same. As I always told GOO Jr.  push the match so the official can't make the call and you have no control over it.  

I saw that match differently than you guys,  I thought the MS kid was definitely the aggressor for most of the match.  St. X kid could have been called for stalling several times but wasnt.  Locking in double unders and pushing out of bounds, i saw that called as a stall on the pusher all weekend.  I felt bad for the MS kid.  Bad way to lose a finals match.  I will say i have seen that official blow alot of matches and has a huge ego problem, when approached by coaches he is dismissive and condescending to them.  Just my opinion.

37 minutes ago, Ol'School ky said:

I saw that match differently than you guys,  I thought the MS kid was definitely the aggressor for most of the match.  St. X kid could have been called for stalling several times but wasnt.  Locking in double unders and pushing out of bounds, i saw that called as a stall on the pusher all weekend.  I felt bad for the MS kid.  Bad way to lose a finals match.  I will say i have seen that official blow alot of matches and has a huge ego problem, when approached by coaches he is dismissive and condescending to them.  Just my opinion.

I would say you are being kind in your judgment of said official. Every interaction I have ever had with him has been negative. Guy acts pissed all the time for no reason.

4 hours ago, JackFlash said:

Pictures in a book, just because a picture is in a book doesn't mean that is what played out on the mat, one coach is always going to see it is way.  So, two officials looking at the same move and they talk about it, and they call didn't go his way.  I only saw 3 people in that 28ft circle, just where were you sitting again?           

You’re right. My eyes are lying.

I have the same picture! This tournament was the first time Jude ever beat Braedon. I think Braedon may have been 4-0 against Jude until this day. I remember watching braedon at maybe 7 years old and thinking he was the most technical small kid I have ever seen. So happy for him and what he accomplished this year. 

8 hours ago, Ol'School ky said:

I saw that match differently than you guys,  I thought the MS kid was definitely the aggressor for most of the match.  St. X kid could have been called for stalling several times but wasnt.  Locking in double unders and pushing out of bounds, i saw that called as a stall on the pusher all weekend.  I felt bad for the MS kid.  Bad way to lose a finals match.  I will say i have seen that official blow alot of matches and has a huge ego problem, when approached by coaches he is dismissive and condescending to them.  Just my opinion.

I felt the same way and several around me felt the same way. 

I also feel regardless of if was technically the right call (everyone will argue if yes or no) there is an "unwritten rule" that you just do not make that call, in that situation. Am I wrong?

Thats the kind of call thats talked about 20 years in a negative way regardless of if it was right or wrong.I can think of at least one like this that still get talked about frequently and it was 25 years ago. 

Ive always said this and most agree, the best officials are the ones that will not decide a tight match. 

26 minutes ago, coachteater said:

I felt the same way and several around me felt the same way. 

I also feel regardless of if was technically the right call (everyone will argue if yes or no) there is an "unwritten rule" that you just do not make that call, in that situation. Am I wrong?

Thats the kind of call thats talked about 20 years in a negative way regardless of if it was right or wrong.I can think of at least one like this that still get talked about frequently and it was 25 years ago. 

Ive always said this and most agree, the best officials are the ones that will not decide a tight match. 

 

Completely agreed. Was it stalling? Yes. Should that ever be called to decide a state championship? Absolutely not. 
 

I feel like most of our officials do a great job. Some are not perfect but try their honest best. And then there are a select 2 or 3 that look to involve themselves no matter what. 

17 hours ago, damonluttrell said:

The year is wrong on the placer plaque’s says 2022

That's the coaches association foul up right there. 

KHSAA gives out the coin sized medals.

8 hours ago, GentleBeard said:

You’re right. My eyes are lying.

takedown all day. I have 4 misconducts arguing this same call.

27 minutes ago, El Pollo Loco said:

That's the coaches association foul up right there. 

KHSAA gives out the coin sized medals.

I posted in another thread as well, but yes it was the kywca awards. The company that made them did not update the year, the order was correct. The company is making new plates and they will sent to coaches as soon as we have them. 

8 hours ago, GentleBeard said:

You’re right. My eyes are lying.

Just playing devil's advocate here?  Was the bottom wrestler completely off his base? He is on his side not his belly as pictured above?   

11 hours ago, BroOfCoach said:

So you're the ref that made the call!?

No, was one in the gym at the time of the call and other calls being discussed. No dog in the fight just observations of the rules and how they apply. 

On 2/25/2023 at 6:32 PM, The Deputy said:

Who are the clowns that are sitting  at the finals table that are talking about the officials? Whoever it is felt like the 132 finals should have ended on a stalling call instead of letting it go to overtime. Even questioned why Rocky didn’t call the stalling that would have given the kid from Great Crossing the win. 
 

8 hours ago, GentleBeard said:

You’re right. My eyes are lying.

Here's Another podium full of studs...Frazier, Grandstaff, Moore, Thomas, Herron.  A lot of state titles in one picture. That bracket also had Jeffrey Kinley, Jude Powell, and Nick Giompalo.  Crazy.

6 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

Just playing devil's advocate here?  Was the bottom wrestler completely off his base? He is on his side not his belly as pictured above?   

Frazier actually has more control of his opponent than the casebook suggests he needs for him to be considered in control.  His opponent's right knee is nearly touching Frazier's left knee.  I'm pretty sure if a wrestler is on their hip, they are off their base.

12 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

Just playing devil's advocate here?  Was the bottom wrestler completely off his base? He is on his side not his belly as pictured above?   

It doesn't look like he is applying a cross face as well, just by looking at his body position in the still photo. The top wrestler looks very forward and maybe that was the deciding factor in the call.

4 hours ago, 385 said:

I have the same picture! This tournament was the first time Jude ever beat Braedon. I think Braedon may have been 4-0 against Jude until this day. I remember watching braedon at maybe 7 years old and thinking he was the most technical small kid I have ever seen. So happy for him and what he accomplished this year. 

Such a cool picture.

19 minutes ago, JackFlash said:

No, was one in the gym at the time of the call and other calls being discussed. No dog in the fight just observations of the rules and how they apply. 

 

 

 

Same here. No dog in the fight. No sour grapes. Not coaching. Just pointed out what I thought were some blown calls in the biggest moments of the tournament. 

Thumbs-up emoji if they had one.  Good discussion and my apologies sir. 

54 minutes ago, JackFlash said:

It doesn't look like he is applying a cross face as well, just by looking at his body position in the still photo. The top wrestler looks very forward and maybe that was the deciding factor in the call.

Not only did he have the cross face (which isn’t mandated to have), but he held that position past reaction…plus 12 more seconds. When he didn’t get his 2 awarded after holding position for 12 seconds, he put his arms behind his opponents to see if that would trigger a takedown. He had more control of his opponent than what’s necessary via the casebook.

1 minute ago, GentleBeard said:

Not only did he have the cross face, but he held that position past reaction…plus 12 more seconds. When he didn’t get his 2 awarded, he put his arms behind his opponents to see if that would trigger a takedown. He had more control of his opponent than what’s necessary via the casebook.

I do remember him putting his hands behind his opponent's arms trying to see if that would change things.

Anyone watch the Campbell v Smith quarterfinal at 113? Am I the only one that thought the stalling calls against Campbell were very iffy?

All in all I thought it was a really good state tournament. Epically the finals! A lot of fun moments! Glad they did face offs and had the blue podium from years past .
 

Frazier vs brown was match of the tournament. It was something out of a wwf match when the coach brought out the rule book. Haven’t seen that before lol! All jokes aside the coach was right that should have been 2 with the leg locked.

at the end of the day don’t leave it up to the refs ! Decide your own fate ex 285. The STX heavy took 2 or 3 shots in the final period if memory serves me right. I thought maybe both could have been hit for stalling but it’s a heavyweight match. I think the stall on MS was fair
 

Impressed with 175 from union . Got his knee banged up late . A lot of kids might stop and forfeit out but he kept going. Jude is a beast and was just too much to handle . Props to him

next year I am hopefull we could have state at freedom hall but I will settle for horse park ! 

As far as officiating went this year it wasn’t bad…definitely saw more inconsistencies in past years. 
The stalling calls are just par for the course at this point, something coaches, wrestlers and parents just have to deal with. This is a topic that gets revisited after every state tournament. 
Question, what is the correct call on a wrestler upper cutting, literally throwing a punch to the groin of their opponent? Said wrestler was in the top position and the punch from behind and between the legs. 
 

The explanation given from the ref was it didn’t make contact so it wasn’t called. I M O that’s like saying someone take a swing at another person’s head but if it misses, it’s a no call? Is that right?

1 minute ago, matreturn said:

As far as officiating went this year it wasn’t bad…definitely saw more inconsistencies in past years. 
The stalling calls are just par for the course at this point, something coaches, wrestlers and parents just have to deal with. This is a topic that gets revisited after every state tournament. 
Question, what is the correct call on a wrestler upper cutting, literally throwing a punch to the groin of their opponent? Said wrestler was in the top position and the punch from behind and between the legs. 
 

The explanation given from the ref was it didn’t make contact so it wasn’t called. I M O that’s like saying someone take a swing at another person’s head but if it misses, it’s a no call? Is that right?

I saw a kid get uppercutted in the nose at the Semi state 2 165 final. All it was called is a 1 point unsportsmanlike. Who knows at this point.

20 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

Not only did he have the cross face (which isn’t a rule to have), but he held that position past reaction…plus 12 more seconds. When he didn’t get his 2 awarded after holding position for 12 seconds, he put his arms behind his opponents to see if that would trigger a takedown. He had more control of his opponent than what’s necessary via the casebook.

I never stated that it was the rule, but when you control the head, you can control other parts of the body.  I'm looking only at the still picture that you posted for discussion in how it relates to the picture in the rule book. Post the full 10-25sec of the video if that's what you want to discuss. 

19 minutes ago, JackFlash said:

I never stated that it was the rule, but when you control the head, you can control other parts of the body.  I'm looking only at the still picture that you posted for discussion in how it relates to the picture in the rule book. Post the full 10-25sec of the video if that's what you want to discuss. 

Looks like TWO!!!

All in all it was great some matches and there was some problems or disagreements of course its ran by humans for humans and none are prefect. As for the Stalling calls or no calls I would just say I don't think it would be as a bad or look as bad a thing if it was called all year. From the mat returns in 5 seconds to getting ran out of bounds they are never called during the year consistently but at state you are hit with them really quick. It wasn't called like that at semi-state either. That was the biggest complaint I heard about the calls is just do it all year.  Is it the rule yes so lets call it all the time. 

As for the location and school I think it is an amazing school but just way to many people and uncomfortable seating to host an event for that many hours. By the second day your back is killing ya, butts are hurting and tempers are high.  I heard the people next to us ask really nice for people to sit down by rails (which was announced all day not stand at ) so they could see only to be cussed out by more than one group of people. This is partly due to KHSAA having rules and not enforcing them and not having suitable seating for people to all be able to see or be comfortable while doing so. Its wrestling we are all used to long days but with so much at stake and as long as it is we need some comfort too. I think under the conditions it was ran good and congrats to all the winners and kids that made it that far.

2 minutes ago, Bobby Lee Schwartz said:

Looks like TWO!!!

 

See, it that last still picture I can 100% agree that it looks like 2TD. I see head, hip and far ankle. IMO.

2 hours ago, GentleBeard said:

Here's Another podium full of studs...Frazier, Grandstaff, Moore, Thomas, Herron.  A lot of state titles in one picture. That bracket also had Jeffrey Kinley, Jude Powell, and Nick Giompalo.  Crazy.

Great Throwback picture!! Thank you for sharing. I believe several of those kids were in Elementary school at the time too. Just on the podium alone is at least 9 state HS titles. Does anyone know who the kid In 4th place is. Obviously tough as nails, placed higher than my kid on the podium

2 minutes ago, gameface said:

Great Throwback picture!! Thank you for sharing. I believe several of those kids were in Elementary school at the time too. Just on the podium alone is at least 9 state HS titles. Does anyone know who the kid In 4th place is. Obviously tough as nails, placed higher than my kid on the podium

I'm not sure, but I know there were at least 11 state titles in that 16 man bracket

16 minutes ago, gameface said:

Great Throwback picture!! Thank you for sharing. I believe several of those kids were in Elementary school at the time too. Just on the podium alone is at least 9 state HS titles. Does anyone know who the kid In 4th place is. Obviously tough as nails, placed higher than my kid on the podium

I looked it up Nate Sawyer (Fern Creek)

48 minutes ago, panthers said:

All in all it was great some matches and there was some problems or disagreements of course its ran by humans for humans and none are prefect. As for the Stalling calls or no calls I would just say I don't think it would be as a bad or look as bad a thing if it was called all year. From the mat returns in 5 seconds to getting ran out of bounds they are never called during the year consistently but at state you are hit with them really quick. It wasn't called like that at semi-state either. That was the biggest complaint I heard about the calls is just do it all year.  Is it the rule yes so lets call it all the time. 

As for the location and school I think it is an amazing school but just way to many people and uncomfortable seating to host an event for that many hours. By the second day your back is killing ya, butts are hurting and tempers are high.  I heard the people next to us ask really nice for people to sit down by rails (which was announced all day not stand at ) so they could see only to be cussed out by more than one group of people. This is partly due to KHSAA having rules and not enforcing them and not having suitable seating for people to all be able to see or be comfortable while doing so. Its wrestling we are all used to long days but with so much at stake and as long as it is we need some comfort too. I think under the conditions it was ran good and congrats to all the winners and kids that made it that far.

With the "5 second return" there is nothing in the rules that puts a time on it. The rule states while standing behind the opponent while making no attempt to return. Nothing about a 5 count. 

Very entertaining to read these.  Took a phone call for me to get on here and read these during my lunch break.   

-Andrew Dennison the Grinch or A-hole, I guess.   

Better than last year as last year I was that Goonie on Steroids.  

30 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

I'm not sure, but I know there were at least 11 state titles in that 16 man bracket

Add another state champ from Campbell County 2022, Jonah Bowers and Brayden Brown is at Legacy in Ohio. That’s at least 12-13 state titles in that bracket. 

1 minute ago, gameface said:

Add another state champ from Campbell County 2022, Jonah Bowers and Brayden Brown is at Legacy in Ohio. That’s at least 12-13 state titles in that bracket. 

Looks like they let the KHSAA seed this bracket lol bottom heavy much?

2 minutes ago, Wrestling247365 said:

With the "5 second return" there is nothing in the rules that puts a time on it. The rule states while standing behind the opponent while making no attempt to return. Nothing about a 5 count. 

 

Correct, but five seconds is kind of the measuring stick here and you know it.  There are norms within the sport/community that we all know so stop being a robot.  If a kid stays in rear standing past five seconds the entire gym is waiting for a stall call to come.  When a ref takes the match into his own hands and makes a bone head stall call with seconds to go to decide the winner he's going to hear about it.  ESPECIALLY in a hwt match where action is already limited.  

10 minutes ago, Bobby Lee Schwartz said:

Correct, but five seconds is kind of the measuring stick here and you know it.  There are norms within the sport/community that we all know so stop being a robot.  If a kid stays in rear standing past five seconds the entire gym is waiting for a stall call to come.  When a ref takes the match into his own hands and makes a bone head stall call with seconds to go to decide the winner he's going to hear about it.  ESPECIALLY in a hwt match where action is already limited.  

Norms??? I am just stating what the rule book says. People that dont know the rules hear coaches and other fans yell "5 seconds" and assume that's a rule so they start getting loud about it as well.  

If your interested, we can always use more officials on the mats. Please feel free to fill out information below and get updates on when the new licensing opens, the training opportunities, and clinic. 

https://www.jotform.com/230434326549052

1 hour ago, OhioWrestler&Reff68 said:

Better than last year as last year I was that Goonie on Steroids.  

That’s silly. You’re not on roids.

1 minute ago, GentleBeard said:

That’s silly. You’re not on roids.

If I am, I need my money back as I was cheated. 

1 hour ago, gameface said:

Add another state champ from Campbell County 2022, Jonah Bowers and Brayden Brown is at Legacy in Ohio. That’s at least 12-13 state titles in that bracket. 

I wonder where that ranks all-time? I feel like that amount of state titles in a single bracket is an all-timer.

1 hour ago, gameface said:

Add another state champ from Campbell County 2022, Jonah Bowers and Brayden Brown is at Legacy in Ohio. That’s at least 12-13 state titles in that bracket. 

Braedon Herron in the bracket, too? Name just misspelled. I missed that. Holy Smokes that bracket has to be the deepest Kentucky has had, right? I mean, with the help of hindsight, obviously. 1st, 3rd, and 5th placers are at D1 schools now, and Kinley is playing D1 football? To be honest, all the kids I remembered from that bracket were Devon, Cole, Spencer, and Blaine. I didn't realize the depth. 9 State titles among the bottom half of the bracket. 

8 hours ago, coachteater said:

I felt the same way and several around me felt the same way. 

I also feel regardless of if was technically the right call (everyone will argue if yes or no) there is an "unwritten rule" that you just do not make that call, in that situation. Am I wrong?

Thats the kind of call thats talked about 20 years in a negative way regardless of if it was right or wrong.I can think of at least one like this that still get talked about frequently and it was 25 years ago. 

Ive always said this and most agree, the best officials are the ones that will not decide a tight match. 

 

So Scotty, we now have to pick and choose when to call stalling or any other calls and forgo the rule book?  In all my years and all the places that I've officiated I've never heard of this "unwritten rule".  Is it a KY rule that I haven't learned yet?  I remember Herron getting called for stalling for having the foot pinned against the butt and it was call with a few seconds left.  I guess there are others who don't know about this rule besides Andrew Dennison. Rule book is clear on the matter, and I saw that JackFlash posted it word for word from both books.  I am missing where is says-just never ever do it in a state championship match and all others its ok to call?

-Andrew Dennison

7 hours ago, gameface said:

Add another state champ from Campbell County 2022, Jonah Bowers and Brayden Brown is at Legacy in Ohio. That’s at least 12-13 state titles in that bracket. 

I coached Jude in probably 4 matches against Cole before Cole was in high school. Cole was so tricky and technical. Back then Jude looked like a newborn pony, all length. He was able to get in on shots but Cole was so funky even in elementary school and usually able to defend. We never were able to get a win over Cole.

53 minutes ago, 385 said:

I coached Jude in probably 4 matches against Cole before Cole was in high school. Cole was so tricky and technical. Back then Jude looked like a newborn pony, all length. He was able to get in on shots but Cole was so funky even in elementary school and usually able to defend. We never were able to get a win over Cole.

Lol “Newborn Pony”. Jude just hadn’t grown in to his body yet. Seeing his brothers you just knew it was a matter of time he’d be a monster!!! Jude was always a great kid and competitor. And the signature Pink Head Gear was awesome!! Thank you for the kind words about Cole. It’s been fun being his Dad/Coach. He’s  been blessed to wrestle so many great kids in Kentucky that are now all State Champions!

5 hours ago, OhioWrestler&Reff68 said:

So Scotty, we now have to pick and choose when to call stalling or any other calls and forgo the rule book?  In all my years and all the places that I've officiated I've never heard of this "unwritten rule".  Is it a KY rule that I haven't learned yet?  I remember Herron getting called for stalling for having the foot pinned against the butt and it was call with a few seconds left.  I guess there are others who don't know about this rule besides Andrew Dennison. Rule book is clear on the matter, and I saw that JackFlash posted it word for word from both books.  I am missing where is says-just never ever do it in a state championship match and all others its ok to call?

-Andrew Dennison

I for one believe the call at HWT this year was correct call.  Not trying to bring up old grudges, but the foot being pinned to the but was argumentative because the foot had been held there for more like 15 seconds.  It its called in the 1st 5 seconds there would have been time left on the clock.  When called with 3 seconds left it makes it impossible to score where 13 seconds at least gives a small chance.  Two wrongs don't make a right. 

Now if claimed not seen at first.  It should have been known that it was not put there in the 10 seconds prior to the call therefore it had to be there for a long time.  Now I don't remember if you were the one officiating that match and I have never had a problem with any of the calls that you have made on matches I have been involved with.  Everyone makes a mistake but when one is made criticism  should be expected. 

23 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

I for one believe the call at HWT this year was correct call.  Not trying to bring up old grudges, but the foot being pinned to the but was argumentative because the foot had been held there for more like 15 seconds.  It its called in the 1st 5 seconds there would have been time left on the clock.  When called with 3 seconds left it makes it impossible to score where 13 seconds at least gives a small chance.  Two wrongs don't make a right. 

Now if claimed not seen at first.  It should have been known that it was not put there in the 10 seconds prior to the call therefore it had to be there for a long time.  Now I don't remember if you were the one officiating that match and I have never had a problem with any of the calls that you have made on matches I have been involved with.  Everyone makes a mistake but when one is made criticism  should be expected. 

With the pinned heel, If I remember correctly didn’t his assistant have to point it out to him?  How can you be so far out of position to miss that call?  5 seconds difference could have been a huge difference. 

9 hours ago, Wrestling247365 said:

Norms??? I am just stating what the rule book says. People that dont know the rules hear coaches and other fans yell "5 seconds" and assume that's a rule so they start getting loud about it as well.  

If your interested, we can always use more officials on the mats. Please feel free to fill out information below and get updates on when the new licensing opens, the training opportunities, and clinic. 

https://www.jotform.com/230434326549052

Couldn’t find the requirement in the rule book where the top wrestler must “hop sides” to avoid stalling, yet we all know if a wrestler rides on one side for too long, a stall call is coming. Yes, there are norms and “unwritten” rules. When a state title is on the line, the “unwritten rules” are that wrestlers will decide the match, even if it goes to UTB. In the Heavyweight snoozefest, I wonder what technique the ref would coach that kid to avoid stalling at the end, specifically. The kid never backed out of bounds, and was attempting to circle out of an under hook, if my memory serves me right.

7 hours ago, GentleBeard said:

Couldn’t find the requirement in the rule book where the top wrestler must “hop sides” to avoid stalling, yet we all know if a wrestler rides on one side for too long, a stall call is coming. Yes, there are norms and “unwritten” rules. When a state title is on the line, the “unwritten rules” are that wrestlers will decide the match, even if it goes to UTB. In the Heavyweight snoozefest, I wonder what technique the ref would coach that kid to avoid stalling at the end, specifically. The kid never backed out of bounds, and was attempting to circle out of an under hook, if my memory serves me right.

It's because the time requirement is not in the book on bringing a wrestler back to the mat.

So should a stall call in the heavy weight finals match happen in regular season but not in the state finals? Just being devils advocate here. People ask for it to be called the same way all season, but when the call is made in the finals match, it shouldn't be called because it's the state finals? I have seen Dennison make that same call all season long, in December, January, and state finals. Thankfully the officials that were working this weekend have all been there before and have called high level matches all season long. 

On 2/27/2023 at 7:09 AM, coachteater said:

I felt the same way and several around me felt the same way. 

I also feel regardless of if was technically the right call (everyone will argue if yes or no) there is an "unwritten rule" that you just do not make that call, in that situation. Am I wrong?

Thats the kind of call thats talked about 20 years in a negative way regardless of if it was right or wrong.I can think of at least one like this that still get talked about frequently and it was 25 years ago. 

Ive always said this and most agree, the best officials are the ones that will not decide a tight match. 

 

The ref not making the right call at the right time and forcing overtime is %100 the referee interjecting themselves into the match. 

I agree it's unfortunate, but the best referees don't decide the match they enforce the rules irregardless. 

1 hour ago, Wrestling247365 said:

It's because the time requirement is not in the book on bringing a wrestler back to the mat.

So should a stall call in the heavy weight finals match happen in regular season but not in the state finals? Just being devils advocate here. People ask for it to be called the same way all season, but when the call is made in the finals match, it shouldn't be called because it's the state finals? I have seen Dennison make that same call all season long, in December, January, and state finals. Thankfully the officials that were working this weekend have all been there before and have called high level matches all season long. 

Just because they've all been there before and have called high level matches is subjective. Especially when the calls are hit and miss at best for a few.  I have kept quiet publicly on this but those who I respect and talk too on issues I have said this too. What needs to occur/brought back is an evaluation process of officials similar to how it was when I first came to KY and the senior officials who are out/getting out to be out evaluating and mentoring young officials. 

You want to increase the number of referees?? Then teams with a big coaching staff quit hoarding coaches and send one to get ref certified. It's okay to miss one when you have 7-10 coaches on staff. There are currently 4 teams out of 122 that have VARSITY coaches who have reffed this season to include 2 of the 4 reffing in a tournament their team is in. 

On 2/26/2023 at 6:56 PM, El cucuy said:

I saw Meyer stall and run for 6 mins. He did everything he could to keep the match close. Well everything but wrestle. Raney was never in any danger in that match. 

I completely disagree. I think that Meyer wrestled a smart match and shut Raney down. I think Raney was feeling the pressure too after watching him come off the mat looking upset. Raney won from Meyer locking hands and getting the extra point. the best wrestlers on the high school and national level have close matches like we saw with Raney and Meyer. 

Time to change gears a little bit. 

Here are the stats on State. 

Semi Stat in Order

Placers----------------Finalists--------------Champs--------------Team points

SS1----56               SS1----17               SS1----11               SS2----799

SS2----56               SS2----11               SS2----3                 SS1----773

Region in order

Placers---------------Finalists----------Champs-------Team Points

R1----22                 R1----8              R1----6            R1----392

R5----21                 R3----6              R3----3            R5----278

R3----18                 R4----4              R2----2            R3----266

R6----14                 R5----3              R5----2            R6----229.5

R7----13                 R2----2              R7----1            R7----159.5

R4----9                   R7----2              R4----0            R8----131

R8----8                   R8----2              R6----0            R4----120.5

R2----7                   R4----1              R8----0            R2----115

5 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

Time to change gears a little bit. 

Here are the stats on State. 

Semi Stat in Order

Placers----------------Finalists--------------Champs--------------Team points

SS1----56               SS1----17               SS1----11               SS2----799

SS2----56               SS2----11               SS2----2                 SS1----773

Region in order

Placers---------------Finalists----------Champs-------Team Points

R1----22                 R1----8              R1----6            R1----392

R5----21                 R3----6              R3----3            R5----278

R3----18                 R4----4              R2----2            R3----266

R6----14                 R5----3              R5----2            R6----229.5

R7----13                 R2----2              R7----1            R7----159.5

R4----9                   R7----2              R4----0            R8----131

R8----8                   R8----2              R6----0            R4----120.5

R2----7                   R4----1              R8----0            R2----115

Good stuff there GOO.  Sort of surprised at the balance between semi-states, but with only a 16 man bracket (8-8 split) it almost forces a certain level of balance.  I think the finalist and champ numbers confirm SS1 was clearly stronger at the top this year.  And region 1 is TOUGH right now.

1 hour ago, halfhalfhalf said:

Just because they've all been there before and have called high level matches is subjective. Especially when the calls are hit and miss at best for a few.  I have kept quiet publicly on this but those who I respect and talk too on issues I have said this too. What needs to occur/brought back is an evaluation process of officials similar to how it was when I first came to KY and the senior officials who are out/getting out to be out evaluating and mentoring young officials. 

You want to increase the number of referees?? Then teams with a big coaching staff quit hoarding coaches and send one to get ref certified. It's okay to miss one when you have 7-10 coaches on staff. There are currently 4 teams out of 122 that have VARSITY coaches who have reffed this season to include 2 of the 4 reffing in a tournament their team is in. 

 

 

 

 

 

Couldn't agree more on having coaches licensed! I understand the programs that have 1 or 2 coaches. But the ones that have 4 or more, have them get their liscense. Only if they work 1 or 2 events all season it makes it that easier to get events covered. When youth and middle school took off 20 year ago or so we saw a huge decline in younger officials getting on the mats. They went into coaching instead. We need younger officials now more than ever. But we cant have youth, middle, and high school coaches screaming and yelling at them. Running them off and leaving a bad taste in their mouths. There will be multiple events canceled due to lack of officials. Already having a few a season right now. Fill out the info below to recieve information on how to become an official 

https://www.jotform.com/230434326549052

1 minute ago, Wrestling247365 said:

Couldn't agree more on having coaches licensed! I understand the programs that have 1 or 2 coaches. But the ones that have 4 or more, have them get their liscense. Only if they work 1 or 2 events all season it makes it that easier to get events covered. When youth and middle school took off 20 year ago or so we saw a huge decline in younger officials getting on the mats. They went into coaching instead. We need younger officials now more than ever. But we cant have youth, middle, and high school coaches screaming and yelling at them. Running them off and leaving a bad taste in their mouths. There will be multiple events canceled due to lack of officials. Already having a few a season right now. Fill out the info below to recieve information on how to become an official 

https://www.jotform.com/230434326549052

 

 

 

In my experience.... It's more youth and middle school coaches screaming and yelling. HS Coaches at times do, but it is NO where near as bad as it was 5-6 years ago. There is a difference in having a conversation during a heated moment and being cussed out. If that occurs they can be removed. Which needs to occur more to get the problem under control more so at the youth levels. 

1 hour ago, Ranger123 said:

Good stuff there GOO.  Sort of surprised at the balance between semi-states, but with only a 16 man bracket (8-8 split) it almost forces a certain level of balance.  I think the finalist and champ numbers confirm SS1 was clearly stronger at the top this year.  And region 1 is TOUGH right now.

This is reminiscent of the good ole days when Hop-town and Christian were dominating in the West with Caldwell and Union not far behind. 

19 hours ago, OhioWrestler&Reff68 said:

So Scotty, we now have to pick and choose when to call stalling or any other calls and forgo the rule book?  In all my years and all the places that I've officiated I've never heard of this "unwritten rule".  Is it a KY rule that I haven't learned yet?  I remember Herron getting called for stalling for having the foot pinned against the butt and it was call with a few seconds left.  I guess there are others who don't know about this rule besides Andrew Dennison. Rule book is clear on the matter, and I saw that JackFlash posted it word for word from both books.  I am missing where is says-just never ever do it in a state championship match and all others its ok to call?

-Andrew Dennison

I thought this was interesting...

From the Courier Journal

"Ferree won the 157-pound state title last year but said it wasn’t completely satisfying because the victory was sealed on a stalling violation." 

“That kind of haunted me ever since because I felt like people could always hang an asterisk,” Ferree said. “But tonight was my moment to prove to people that I was worthy of this title and that I deserved it. It feels great to go down in the books as one of those great Trinity wrestlers.”

"Guillaume’s 2-1 victory over Whitehead was sealed with a somewhat controversial stalling call in the final seconds."

1 hour ago, Bobby Lee Schwartz said:

I thought this was interesting...

From the Courier Journal

"Ferree won the 157-pound state title last year but said it wasn’t completely satisfying because the victory was sealed on a stalling violation." 

“That kind of haunted me ever since because I felt like people could always hang an asterisk,” Ferree said. “But tonight was my moment to prove to people that I was worthy of this title and that I deserved it. It feels great to go down in the books as one of those great Trinity wrestlers.”

"Guillaume’s 2-1 victory over Whitehead was sealed with a somewhat controversial stalling call in the final seconds."

Not overly surprising. Jason Frakes that writes the courier journal hs sports articles has held a pro-Trinity anti-St.X stance for years. It was so bad that when St. X won in 2013 the coaches declined to be interviewed by him. 

2 hours ago, halfhalfhalf said:

In my experience.... It's more youth and middle school coaches screaming and yelling. HS Coaches at times do, but it is NO where near as bad as it was 5-6 years ago. There is a difference in having a conversation during a heated moment and being cussed out. If that occurs they can be removed. Which needs to occur more to get the problem under control more so at the youth levels. 

Correct youth and middle school are used as training grounds a lot of times. That's were we loose the younger officials 

15 minutes ago, CoachBauer said:

Not overly surprising. Jason Frakes that writes the courier journal hs sports articles has held a pro-Trinity anti-St.X stance for years. It was so bad that when St. X won in 2013 the coaches declined to be interviewed by him. 

Both statements can be true.

6 hours ago, Ranger123 said:

Good stuff there GOO.  Sort of surprised at the balance between semi-states, but with only a 16 man bracket (8-8 split) it almost forces a certain level of balance.  I think the finalist and champ numbers confirm SS1 was clearly stronger at the top this year.  And region 1 is TOUGH right now.

6 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

Time to change gears a little bit. 

Here are the stats on State. 

Semi Stat in Order

Placers----------------Finalists--------------Champs--------------Team points

SS1----56               SS1----17               SS1----11               SS2----799

SS2----56               SS2----11               SS2----2                 SS1----773

Region in order

Placers---------------Finalists----------Champs-------Team Points

R1----22                 R1----8              R1----6            R1----392

R5----21                 R3----6              R3----3            R5----278

R3----18                 R4----4              R2----2            R3----266

R6----14                 R5----3              R5----2            R6----229.5

R7----13                 R2----2              R7----1            R7----159.5

R4----9                   R7----2              R4----0            R8----131

R8----8                   R8----2              R6----0            R4----120.5

R2----7                   R4----1              R8----0            R2----115

I thought there were three champs from ss2 Blevins evans and isn’t reeves from ss2?

Yep that was a typo I fixed it. 

Best throw of the tournament that I saw was Charlie McKune in his 3rd place match against Ricketts. Does anyone have a video or picture of that throw? 

5 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

Best throw of the tournament that I saw was Charlie McKune in his 3rd place match against Ricketts. Does anyone have a video or picture of that throw? 

I know you dont do fb, instagram, or tiktok, but its on moores pages. 

2 minutes ago, coachteater said:

I know you dont do fb, instagram, or tiktok, but its on moores pages. 

forward it to me.

Now c'mon I may not use them but I do have a fb. lol 

1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:

Best throw of the tournament that I saw was Charlie McKune in his 3rd place match against Ricketts. Does anyone have a video or picture of that throw? 

Here is the link to the match Charlie McKune vs Lucas Ricketts it’s at 2:40

Thank you.  I saw it from the opposite direction.  This angle does not really show just how much of an arch Charlie had on this throw.  He  arched so far he was facing the mat before they hit. 

17 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

Thank you.  I saw it from the opposite direction.  This angle does not really show just how much of an arch Charlie had on this throw.  He  arched so far he was facing the mat before they hit. 

Here’s the floor video

Here are some more stats comparing Semi State 1 and 2

Semi State 1 won 214 matches Semi State 2 won 206 matches.

The most dominating Semi State weight class was at 113 Where Semi State 2 won 21 matches to Semi State 2 winning 9 matches. 

Here is where each Semi State faired in weight classes. 

SS1

157-- 19 to 11

190-- 19 to 11

150--18 to 12

165-- 18 to 12

175-- 18 to 12

138-- 16 to 14

SS2

113-- 21 to 9

126-- 20 to 10

106-- 16 to 14

132-- 16 to 14

Hwt-- 16 to 14

Tied

120-- 15 to 15

144-- 15 to 15

215-- 15 to 15

Maybe if I get time I will compare regions. 

Yes I know I am a nerd. 

On 2/27/2023 at 2:11 PM, GentleBeard said:

I wonder where that ranks all-time? I feel like that amount of state titles in a single bracket is an all-timer.

Add another, Nick Giompalo just won his 2nd state title for Cabell Midland at 190 lbs.

On 2/26/2023 at 10:05 PM, Ol'School ky said:

I saw that match differently than you guys,  I thought the MS kid was definitely the aggressor for most of the match.  St. X kid could have been called for stalling several times but wasnt.  Locking in double unders and pushing out of bounds, i saw that called as a stall on the pusher all weekend.  I felt bad for the MS kid.  Bad way to lose a finals match.  I will say i have seen that official blow alot of matches and has a huge ego problem, when approached by coaches he is dismissive and condescending to them.  Just my opinion.

The person being backed out has the responsibility to circle back in or get hit with stalling. Gets called like that Nationwide.

On 3/1/2023 at 11:03 AM, Brody’sbrother said:

Here’s the floor video

 

the Greco Roman he does in the off season really show's in Charlie's matches when people come forward on him with underhooks,1 underhook  or over under.

On 2/27/2023 at 12:26 PM, gameface said:

Add another state champ from Campbell County 2022, Jonah Bowers and Brayden Brown is at Legacy in Ohio. That’s at least 12-13 state titles in that bracket. 

I remember little Nate Sawyer always looked so mean, but was such a nice kid. Did Nate give up wrestling in high school? 

On 3/4/2023 at 9:14 PM, wrestling fan said:

Add another, Nick Giompalo just won his 2nd state title for Cabell Midland at 190 lbs.

That’s pretty impressive. Congratulations to Nicky G on another State Championship!! Awesome young man. Hard to believe that Nick and Jude were the same size as Cole and Spencer. LOL

OK I went all nerd again with the statistics.  I looked at all the teams in each region and determined how many wt classes each team filled. 

this is what I came up with. 

I found it interesting that the largest number of teams had a full squad (20 teams had 14 wrestlers at region)

Region wrestler and teams.xlsx

KHSAA needs to change the rules back that 19 year olds are ineligible to compete in athletics! A 19 year old competing against a 14-16 year old should not be allowed! If you place as a 19 year old there should definitely be an asterisk next to their name! Kentucky is one of the few states where this is still allowed!

coaches, parents and fans complain about officiating at every level from amateur to professional! One thing is you never here Champions complaining! Stop using the officials as an excuse! Yes there are bad calls here and there but Champions overcome! To everybody that complains I’m sure the state would be more than happy to have you sign up and start officiating!

5 hours ago, Debo said:

KHSAA needs to change the rules back that 19 year olds are ineligible to compete in athletics! A 19 year old competing against a 14-16 year old should not be allowed! If you place as a 19 year old there should definitely be an asterisk next to their name! Kentucky is one of the few states where this is still allowed!

coaches, parents and fans complain about officiating at every level from amateur to professional! One thing is you never here Champions complaining! Stop using the officials as an excuse! Yes there are bad calls here and there but Champions overcome! To everybody that complains I’m sure the state would be more than happy to have you sign up and start officiating!

19 year old's have always been allowed to compete.  The cut off was changed form (you must be 18 when the season started to, You must be 18 when August started) 

Why punish a kid who may have struggled in gradeschool?  

If you look at my other post in "Sportsmanship" you can see that KY is more strict than others at age. 

I did some comparisons to last years totals. 

2022 had 1085 wrestlers compete at Region. This year 1186. 101 more wrestlers this year.

2022 had 119 teams compete at Region.  This year 121 teams. 2 more teams (What happened to Danville at region?)

Region 7 lost (2) teams, and Region 1 and Region 4 lost (1) team

Region 8 gained (4) teams, Region 5 and Region 6 Rained (1) team

Region 8 gained (41) participants and Region 4 gained (31) participants

Region 5 (+16) Region 6 (+14) Region 2 (+14) Region 2 (+8) Region 1 (-3) Region 7 (-21)

Sadly for those wrestlers, Danville’s head coach jumped ship to another program after he destroyed that one. There’s a lot of significant history in that school for successful wrestlers. I hope they can rebuild