Why isn't state tournament going to be seeded? So stupid. 

Great question. I have no clue. Kentucky hates wrestling, or is incompetent. It's the dumbest thing 

All they need to do is seed the ones like middle school. The KHSAA just don’t care. 

It’s a sport looking for a champ. The other spots are luck of the draw. 

Is it not seeded with regional champs vs. fourth from regions anymore? Believe that was the system from last year...

It is set up that way, but the 3rd round is when the number 1s from each region meet. It’s all random. Could be the top 2 guys in the quarters. 

I feel that the best system to do it and also keep it simple at the same time would be to seed the 8 region champs. As nice as it would be to further seed the tournament this keeps it straightforward.

23 minutes ago, pin4thewin said:

I feel that the best system to do it and also keep it simple at the same time would be to seed the 8 region champs. As nice as it would be to further seed the tournament this keeps it straightforward.

State was seeded in 2021.  All 8 wrestlers were seeded regardless of their region finish.  It can be done.  Seed the 8 Region Champs and keep the standard draw format.  The 1 seed will be on top of the bracket and face a 4th place finisher from a different region.  2 seed on the bottom, etc..  I could do it within a day of regions being completed.

57 minutes ago, pin4thewin said:

I feel that the best system to do it and also keep it simple at the same time would be to seed the 8 region champs. As nice as it would be to further seed the tournament this keeps it straightforward.

How does it keep it straightforward?

I feel like seeding it would do that.

6 minutes ago, Jimbobert said:

How does it keep it straightforward?

I feel like seeding it would do that.

Yes, that's what I mean. I worded that weirdly but I am saying that it would be more straightforward if we only seed the 8 region champs. That way we don't see the best 2 guys in the state in the 3rd round. IMO it should be done the same as middle school is done.

So how can we get this changed?  It's not too late, and these kids deserved an opportunity for the fairest and most accurate outcome, even if it's a little more work for coaches.  I'd also like to see the best state finals possible, not a bunch of lopsided wins. 

21 hours ago, DrBaker said:

It’s a sport looking for a champ. The other spots are luck of the draw.  

This is just silly.  Every sport at every level is looking for a champ in the playoffs, you still seed.

I'm a techno-idiot, but I have to believe that if people use track, then the criteria is already stored in the system.  Can't they use that stored criteria to seed everyone?  Upsets will happen and maybe there are some imperfections, but it would be a travesty to see another Trent Johnson vs Bryce Sheffer kind of match in the quarters.  

1 hour ago, gator1 said:

So how can we get this changed?  It's not too late, and these kids deserved an opportunity for the fairest and most accurate outcome, even if it's a little more work for coaches.  I'd also like to see the best state finals possible, not a bunch of lopsided wins. 

This is just silly.  Every sport at every level is looking for a champ in the playoffs, you still seed.

I believe in seeding. Track is already set up like that. Track can seed it in seconds and be really accurate. 

Would you have to make a case to the khsaa to change the format so that state is seeded? 

34 minutes ago, Bk3 said:

Would you have to make a case to the khsaa to change the format so that state is seeded? 

We should try something, these kids deserve it 

I completely understand why someone would want seeding. A year ago I would 100% agree. I moved to Iowa right before season and have finally got to be up to date on a state that "loves wrestling" and I can say that Iowa wrestling is a joke DUE TO SEEDING. Coaches are doing everything in their power to protect kids seeds so everyone is ducking each other after the second or third week of season. I watched a rivalry dual of 2 pretty tough teams and 80% of the matches were 2nd and third string kids. I asked the coach why and they straight up said "we have to protect seeds for state". NCAA did the same thing. I don't blame the coaches, end of year is what matters for most of these kids. 
 

I can say as a fan AND coach I enjoy the Kentucky season much more than Iowa season because KY kids aren't afraid to wrestle each other. We are also not as far behind as a lot of people think. Numbers is the number one issue with Kentucky, we just need more schools with wrestling. 

8 hours ago, Elite Training Center KY said:

I completely understand why someone would want seeding. A year ago I would 100% agree. I moved to Iowa right before season and have finally got to be up to date on a state that "loves wrestling" and I can say that Iowa wrestling is a joke DUE TO SEEDING. Coaches are doing everything in their power to protect kids seeds so everyone is ducking each other after the second or third week of season. I watched a rivalry dual of 2 pretty tough teams and 80% of the matches were 2nd and third string kids. I asked the coach why and they straight up said "we have to protect seeds for state". NCAA did the same thing. I don't blame the coaches, end of year is what matters for most of these kids. 
 

I can say as a fan AND coach I enjoy the Kentucky season much more than Iowa season because KY kids aren't afraid to wrestle each other. We are also not as far behind as a lot of people think. Numbers is the number one issue with Kentucky, we just need more schools with wrestling. 

I agree. It sucks to see tough matches go down in the quarters, but then we get dodging and ducking and I'd rather see the top guys go at it throughout the year to actually propel the level of wrestling in Kentucky forward to new heights rather than ducking. Only way to get better is to wrestle tough guys and wanting to face those challenges head on, I've seen top guys from a weight below that have great mindsets bump up and risk their perfect record against a top guys but it tests their metal and shows them where they can improve. With the seeding region champs that doesn't really work out all the time because then you get kids from very week regions getting seeded over someone that is head and shoulders better than them but lost in the finals or semis of a tough region with 2-4 of the top guys. Ultimately if we want Kentucky wrestling to grow and develop the depth that some of the better states around us have we need to let these top kids clash and keep improving.

20 hours ago, gator1 said:

So how can we get this changed?  It's not too late, and these kids deserved an opportunity for the fairest and most accurate outcome, even if it's a little more work for coaches.  I'd also like to see the best state finals possible, not a bunch of lopsided wins. 

This is just silly.  Every sport at every level is looking for a champ in the playoffs, you still seed.

1.  First thing that has to happen is that all results must be put in, and be put in relatively quickly along with updating the records portion of track.  

2.  KHSAA must require this, and have consequences for not doing so like in other sports. 

3.  A criteria must be set up that rewards who you wrestled and defeated. 

4. This is my opinion.  But only the regional champions need to be seeded.  Even if the top 2 are from the same region they are on opposite ends of the bracket and reduces skewed results. Then 1 vs 4 and 2 Vs 3 from other regions. 

What GOO said. Until results are maintained fully, this is a mute point. Dodging already occurs by some schools and it ends up biting them in the arse later. Just wrestle and test yourself. College coaches aren't looking for perfect records. They are looking to see how many challenges you have overcome.

I agree with Elite training's post 100%. It's been a few years, but I saw the same running. Avoiding competition in KY MS. 

However, this entire debate could be satisfied if we wrestled to true 2nd. 

1 hour ago, 70s wrestler said:

I agree with Elite training's post 100%. It's been a few years, but I saw the same running. Avoiding competition in KY MS. 

However, this entire debate could be satisfied if we wrestled to true 2nd. 

Wrestling a true second will do 2 things.  Require wrestling after the finals and take away from the excitement of the state finals. 

Plus how fair is it for a kid who just lost a state final to wrestle again to get 2nd. 

I am not a fan of true second. 

Agree completely GOO and I've never heard or seen any state run a true second at the state tournament at the high school level either. Coming from someone that lost in the state finals, as a high school kid that's a lot to take in, then to have to turn around and wrestle a true 2nd would be brutal.

17 minutes ago, Parrott Wing said:

Agree completely GOO and I've never heard or seen any state run a true second at the state tournament at the high school level either. Coming from someone that lost in the state finals, as a high school kid that's a lot to take in, then to have to turn around and wrestle a true 2nd would be brutal.

Indiana use to do true second for middle school (maybe they still do idk) and It was terrible. Just get better and don't lose in quarters is all I can say. Realistically what's the difference between second and third.

  When the Covid Semi-State and the really State went on yes there was seeding. But you seen at Regionals and Semis once a kid made the next tourney some would foriet out so it wouldnt hurt seeding at the next round. Trackwrestling doesnt get seeding correct all the time. So I am sure there would be more complaints about which 1 should be the 1 at state and who should be 8th of course some are without a doubt, so then the argue would happen over 4-6 or whatever. But coaches will fight about it for sure.  If you dont seed you have no need for a seeding meetings or complaints other than the same one why didnt we seed either all or #1s. Maybe easier to deal with one big complaint rather than hundreds of different complaints over 14 weights. Just a thought we have all ran into poor seeding in the past and will again. 

I understand the issue with teams ducking out of matches for seeding. No one wants to go to a dual and see that. However, that’s a small amount of teams. Really you’re talking about Louisville, Lexington and Northern Ky. Right now Paducah, Union, Great crossing and Johnson Central are all wrestling the majority of their matches out of state. It’s not to avoid competition. It’s to get tougher matches. There is no reason for them to wrestle any instate tournaments. If they did seed the regional champs you might see those teams enter a couple in state tournaments to get criteria not avoid it. 

3 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

1.  First thing that has to happen is that all results must be put in, and be put in relatively quickly along with updating the records portion of track.  

2.  KHSAA must require this, and have consequences for not doing so like in other sports. 

3.  A criteria must be set up that rewards who you wrestled and defeated.  

We already have all 3 of these requirements met for regional seeding the week before states.  This isn't anything new. 

As for ducking, this is a poor reason to avoid seeding.  It's an unfortunate byproduct but will only work to the detriment of the teams that duck in the longterm. 

If you want people to update results in track, then use track as criteria as a way to seed it. If coaches don’t put in their results, seeding criteria, or records, then it falls on them not the “system”. 

I grew up in a state that wrestles for true 2nd. Those matches are always tough, but my perspective may be a minority. It’s the closest thing to a true double elimination bracket that we could have. I like it. We will never have such a thing in Kentucky, though.

At the end of the day, “seeding” is really all about bracket placement. No better way to get separated from who you want to wrestle later in the tournament than by wrestling head to head prior to the tournament. 

Let's look at the weights 

106-Wells hasn't wrestled anyone in top 5 as far as I know but Koller who he controlled at WCI 10-2 or so and should finish undefeated until state. Cornwell has beat Roman but lost to Koller and union. Roman dominated Koller twice before pinning. So top 5 guys based on that flip a coin on seeds. 

113-Birk set his place as the 1 pretty clear (but not a lock imo) and flip a coin for next 3 guys on seeds.

120 clear number 1 and imo a lock for Landon. Flip a coin for next 3 guys

126 clear number 1 and lock for Raney. Flip a coin for next 4-5 guys

132 clear number 1 and lock for Raney. Flip a coin for next 2 guys. (Reeves is probably a clear 2 but not 1000% sold)

138 this is the first weight seeding could be a impact. TJ and Whorton are clear 1-2 seed and big gap after. 
 

144 Jenkins clear number 1 as of now. Flip coin for next 3-4 guys. 
 

150 Miller clear 1 as of now. Flip a coin for next 5-6 guys. Millers 9-8 match with Wojo shows the depth at 150. 
 

157 clear number 1 in malachia. Flip coin for next 4 guys. Faucett could spladle his way to a title

165 put matney at 1 but honestly flip a coin for seeding on 1-5. 
 

175 put Seth at 1 but again flip a coin for 1-4 at this weight

190 Clear 1 and 2 with Lane and Uriah. This is the Second weight seeding would help of 14. 

215 Jack at 1 next couple guys flip a coin

Hwt Carter at 1 and again, next couple guys flip a coin. 
 

I went off of Rangers rankings on these so could be upsets recent that changes this ,but if so, It only makes my point more. Of the 14 weights, I see 2 that have a clear 1 and 2 guy. Of one of those It might be better to get third so less people watch Raney do what he does lol. I don't think seeding is that big of a deal as of yet. 

Every sport does it. Most wrestling tourneys do it. If ironman and Super32 can do it, then we can do it here. Seeding the 8 regional champs will make it even worse. There are times the top 3 in a weight are in the same region. If you run from competition, just to keep a good record, it will do no good according to track. 

3 hours ago, Elite Training Center KY said:

Let's look at the weights 

106-Wells hasn't wrestled anyone in top 5 as far as I know but Koller who he controlled at WCI 10-2 or so and should finish undefeated until state. Cornwell has beat Roman but lost to Koller and union. Roman dominated Koller twice before pinning. So top 5 guys based on that flip a coin on seeds. 

113-Birk set his place as the 1 pretty clear (but not a lock imo) and flip a coin for next 3 guys on seeds.

120 clear number 1 and imo a lock for Landon. Flip a coin for next 3 guys

126 clear number 1 and lock for Raney. Flip a coin for next 4-5 guys

132 clear number 1 and lock for Raney. Flip a coin for next 2 guys. (Reeves is probably a clear 2 but not 1000% sold)

138 this is the first weight seeding could be a impact. TJ and Whorton are clear 1-2 seed and big gap after. 
 

144 Jenkins clear number 1 as of now. Flip coin for next 3-4 guys. 
 

150 Miller clear 1 as of now. Flip a coin for next 5-6 guys. Millers 9-8 match with Wojo shows the depth at 150. 
 

157 clear number 1 in malachia. Flip coin for next 4 guys. Faucett could spladle his way to a title

165 put matney at 1 but honestly flip a coin for seeding on 1-5. 
 

175 put Seth at 1 but again flip a coin for 1-4 at this weight

190 Clear 1 and 2 with Lane and Uriah. This is the Second weight seeding would help of 14. 

215 Jack at 1 next couple guys flip a coin

Hwt Carter at 1 and again, next couple guys flip a coin. 
 

I went off of Rangers rankings on these so could be upsets recent that changes this ,but if so, It only makes my point more. Of the 14 weights, I see 2 that have a clear 1 and 2 guy. Of one of those It might be better to get third so less people watch Raney do what he does lol. I don't think seeding is that big of a deal as of yet. 

 

58 minutes ago, DrBaker said:

Every sport does it. Most wrestling tourneys do it. If ironman and Super32 can do it, then we can do it here. Seeding the 8 regional champs will make it even worse. There are times the top 3 in a weight are in the same region. If you run from competition, just to keep a good record, it will do no good according to track. 

Personally I don't think you can look at one off national tournaments like Super 32 or Ironman as examples. National level guys from 30 different states aren't gonna hurt state seeds. I'm in the heat of battle up here in Iowa in a state that seeds EVERYONE and it's miserable. All the teams including the best teams in the state couple top 50 in COUNTRY teams are forfeiting and ducking to protect seeds.

Literally 2 weights have clear 1 and 2 guys right now in Kentucky. One of those weights the 1 is probably 10 points better on a bad day than the number 2. Seeding isn't something that's hurting Kentucky due to having decent depth from guys 1-5. I am all for seeding if there is big bonus to wrestling good in state comp and little down side if you lose to other high level guys. Idk how that all works on track wrestling. I still don't think it's needed (YET). 

1 hour ago, DrBaker said:

. Seeding the 8 regional champs will make it even worse. There are times the top 3 in a weight are in the same region.. 

If top three are from same region then the champion would get the 1st seed then the other 2 would automatically be on the other side of the bracket and meet in the semi finals. All four qualifiers from a region are in separate quarter brackets. 

8 hours ago, gator1 said:

We already have all 3 of these requirements met for regional seeding the week before states.  This isn't anything new. 

As for ducking, this is a poor reason to avoid seeding.  It's an unfortunate byproduct but will only work to the detriment of the teams that duck in the longterm. 

If this was true then how was it that all wrestlers from a certain team only had about 5 matches when they went to the state tournament during COVID? What is the consequences? Look at track now do all teams have their events updated? 

How do you seed when teams spend most of their season out of state like many of the Nky teams do?  Mostly because they don't want to travel 2 hours every weekend to wrestle in Lou and Lex. I know my parents and wrestlers love when we are in Ohio because they can sleep an extra hour and their family can make the short trip across the river. Not to mention the school enjoys the lower travel cost. 

There are several reason I don't like the idea of seeding, most of which have already been mentioned. 

What is wrong with having a few exciting matches in the semi's and quarters. Keeps the whole tournament exciting.  Having an athlete move up or down one spot in placement ultimately is not a big deal. 

8 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

What is wrong with having a few exciting matches in the semi's and quarters. Keeps the whole tournament exciting.  Having an athlete move up or down one spot in placement ultimately is not a big deal. 

1000% Agree. People want to say "look at other sports" well other sports like basketball and football don't get the chance to fight back for 3rd-8th. Only thing that matters is 1st. 

19 hours ago, Elite Training Center KY said:

Indiana use to do true second for middle school (maybe they still do idk) and It was terrible. Just get better and don't lose in quarters is all I can say. Realistically what's the difference between second and third.

Bingo, can't be a state champ anyway unless you beat the top guys, so what's it matter if it's in the quarters, semis, or heck even the first round. Good friend of mine made a mistake our senior year and had to wrestle the eventual champ second round. Didn't hear him complain once, he owned it, lost in a tight one and wrestled all the way back to get 3rd. This late in the year there is only win or lose no more no less, doesn't matter how ugly the wins are either W's are still W's in the long run.

12 hours ago, DrBaker said:

Every sport does it. 

Arguably the most important sport to KHSAA does not seed. (Basketball)

On 1/29/2024 at 2:18 PM, gator1 said:

So how can we get this changed?  It's not too late, and these kids deserved an opportunity for the fairest and most accurate outcome, even if it's a little more work for coaches.  I'd also like to see the best state finals possible, not a bunch of lopsided wins. 

This is just silly.  Every sport at every level is looking for a champ in the playoffs, you still seed.

I feel the event should be seeded too, but the KHSAA literally doesn’t seed any state tournament, except to a certain extent, football. All other state tournaments are random draws.