I for one think it is time for the rule limiting a wrestler to 5 matches a day to be reviewed and changed.  The problem with the 5 match rule is it does not allow a wrestler who loses early and wrestles hard through the consis to finish his tournament.  I had this rule effect 2 wrestlers today at Middle School State (yes it was MS but still important).  One time was beneficial one hurt my kid so there is no bias.  I had one wrestler take 3rd by forefit, and one finish 6th because he had to forefit.  The wrestler who forefitted and finished 6th lost in the quarterfinals consi round and wrestled all the way back.  The athelte who had to forefit 3rd to my wrestler had the same situation.  I just dont like that a kid can put in a fulls day work then be told he cannot finish because of a stupid rule.  Most tournaments are 16 man bracket as my tournament was today why not allow a 6 or 7 match rule to allow 16 man brackets to be completed. 

I agree

I agree I saw multiple wrestlers today get stuck by the 5 match rule. remember that these kids started  at

9:40 a.m. and there last match would have started around 7:30 p.m.  this works out to about a match

every 1:30-1:45 hours.  If our wrestlers are in as good condition as we say they are, they should be able to wrestle this type of schedule. 

Yeah. i say the rule should be extended not dismissed. maybe taken to six or seven matches, not just five. Something else they could do is make it every hour between matches instead of 45 mins, that way you get more time to rest if you do have to wrestle six or seven matches. it takes alot out of you, but as long as you stay hydrated, and eat between every match, seven matches isn't as bad as some may think.

i like the modification , if you are doing a duel I can see this  5 match limit.  i feel i tourn we can waive this.  we all know that our kids are 3-5 lbs over what they weight in by the sheer fact that they eat some

during the day.

I would like to see the five match rule go to 6 in a day, and the time limit go to 30 minutes.  A wrestler should be able to recouperate within 30 minutes to get ready for the next match.  I just hat sitting at tournaments where  we have to wait for the 45 minute rule of a wrestler and then the wait turns into an extra 20 minutes making the whole tournament that much longer if it happens a couple times. 

30 minutes is not enough time to prepare for the next match. It doesn't matter how long the crowd has to wait, its about the wrestler. You wrestle a close decision match and 30 minutes feels like 10.

If a wrestler is in shape he should be just fine in 30 minutes, at least as good as 45 minutes will get him. 

Im glad it seems people are agreeing...but i am not trying to dismiss the rule simply extend it to 6 or 7.  and i do agree with the 45 minute rule...30 just isnt enough time 15 more minutes may not seem like much but thats 15 more minutes you have to digest some liquid or food after a close hard match.  we all know if you dont have time go digest you feel it the whole time your wrestling and it definitly effects performance.  by the time you finish, cool down, get your warm ups back on, and eat your 10-15 minutes into your break which if made 30 would only allow 15 to eat and digest.  you need that extra 15 minutes in there

I have to disagree with eliminating the 5 match rule.  This is my first year in kentucky coaching.  (After spending 30 years coaching in indiana)  This NEVER came to play in any tournment I Have seen or been associated with.

Sound like to me poor tournament planning.

remember the five match rule is for the safety of the wrestler not for a 50 cent metal or ribbon.

Remember, just one man's opinion.....

    I also disagree with getting rid of the 5 match rule.  The only reason this is occuring is because the scools are overbooking their tournaments. 

    Even if you overbook there is a simple solution.  Pools.  By holding a pool tourney you can hold a 16 man tourney and not break the 5 match rule.

im not worried so much about the medal or trophy.  i know the rule is for the safety of the wrestler, but i dont think extending the rule to 6 matches would put anybody at a higher risk.  a lot of matches dont even go the full 6 minutes, and espically once your in the consilation rounds (where this rule would effect people) you hve only a 1 minute first period, and a lot of conis matches are over quickly.

I very much dislike "pool" tournaments. It just don't seem right if a kid loses once in his pool that the best he can come back and wrestle for is fifth. The five match rule needs to at least be addressed.

    I also disagree with getting rid of the 5 match rule.  The only reason this is occuring is because the scools are overbooking their tournaments. 

    Even if you overbook there is a simple solution.  Pools.  By holding a pool tourney you can hold a 16 man tourney and not break the 5 match rule.

western Brown's tournament is like this

Pool tournaments I agree really aren't the best, they make sure wrestlers get their matches, but it isn't a good way of placing if a kid has one bad match, no chance to come back and avenge yourself.  A team dual tournament to maximize number of matches, but not much individual recognition.  Like others have said if you lose in the first round the other 4 matches are going to be one minute first period so you will wrestle only 2 minutes more than someone else who stayed in the winners bracket all through with one more match, so wrestle one more match and you have 3 minutes more if all the matches go full distance.  And that is something that never happens. 

Let's get rid of it, but be careful in the process. It may be wise to change it to 6 at first, or make the change for State Duels and State only. This issue did affect many kids at Middle School State. Kids that should have wrestled to "ear" their meddle didn't. Awarding a medal to a kid hat has wrestled 4 matches only because his opponent has wrestled 5 is not appropriate. The "loser" of the bout has not lost, he was denied his ability to prove himself.

Get rid of the rule so kids can wrestle.

I agree to we should b able to have at least 10 matches a day

I wouldn't go as far as 10, that seems ridiculous for high school competition.  you can have that if you wrestle freestyle and no time waiting either.  6 should be good that would get rid of the problems in a 16 man bracket. 

i dont think the rule should be changed...i believe that any tournament that requires a kid to wrestle more than five matches should be made into a two day tournament...either that or have put a limit to the number of kids that could have entered each bracket to where there couldtn have been a possibility of more than 5 in a day

I think there should be a limit on the number of teams that participate in one tourney.  this will eliminate the possibility of reaching 5 matches.  That would also give more teams the opportunity to host quality tournaments.  Spread the competition out and let more teams benefit from hosting a tournament.  I do realize that some teams do not want to host, but I think that there would be enough that would for everyone to have a place to go. 

I agree to we should b able to have at least 10 matches a day

i wrestled at cincinatti three ways over the summer and i had 9 matches my second day...and at the end of that day (regardless of the shape your in) you are gonna hurt....wrestling 10 mayches would be dumb....but yes maybe 6 that wouldnt be too bad at all....but over that could be some problems

I think there should be a limit on the number of teams that participate in one tourney.  this will eliminate the possibility of reaching 5 matches.  That would also give more teams the opportunity to host quality tournaments.  Spread the competition out and let more teams benefit from hosting a tournament.  I do realize that some teams do not want to host, but I think that there would be enough that would for everyone to have a place to go. 

The number of teams is not the problem..at least in my case and the reason i started the post was because it was a simple 16 man bracket...no pig tails yes it was MS State, but still only 16 kids per weight which is not too many.  10 matches yes is a bit extreme but 6 is very do able

I very much dislike "pool" tournaments. It just don't seem right if a kid loses once in his pool that the best he can come back and wrestle for is fifth. The five match rule needs to at least be addressed.

    Pool tournaments only occur during the season and not in the post season.  If the pools have been seeded then you won't have many wrestlers placing 5th who could have placed higher.  It's not much different than if you have a bad match in the championsip round.  You lose the best you can get is 3rd. 

    The second thing to remember is that these are season tournaments and not the post season.  It realy does not matter what place you get in these tourneys.  If you could only choose one which would it be?

1.  Place top 4 in every tournament throughout the year and not place in the state tourney.

2.  Place 5th in every tournament throughout the year and place 5th in the state.

I'm sure they would pick number 2.

Also pool tourneys as stated gives you more matches thorughout the day wich in turn gets you more prepared for the long grueling days at the state tourney.

We don't need to limit the teams at a touney.  If this was the case several of the smaller teams would never be allowed to enter.  I'm talking about the teams with less than 7 wrestlers.  Teams such as Danville, Bourbon Co., Holmes,  Holy Cross (Lou), KCD ect. ect.

The m.s. state tournament is a 16 man bracket.  we run into the 5 match rule because this tournament is not seeded (just like h.s. state) and kids get upset in the first 2 rounds in a LOT of weight classes.  making it a 2 day tournament would fix this, but that has been voted down numerous times.  The problem with that is the added hotel expense for teams, a lot of teams from the far regions of the state would have to leave by noon or 1pm on friday to make it to a 5 or 6 pm weigh ins.  Seeding it would be almost impossible....no one has seen every kid in every weight class...plus we have some kids that wrestle up at h.s. all year, and only compete in our state duals, regionals, & state.  How do we seed those kids???  If I was seeding this tournament this past weekend, i had never even seen the kids from Inez, Wayne, Henderson, Calloway, and many other teams that had kids in the finals.  The 5 match rule can not be waived at all.  The refs will not allow that at all....that's an insurance thing and if they find out we are going beyond that, they will refuse to ref our tournaments.  I've not met a ref yet that would go for this.  We've been down this road numerous times.  I personally have had this rule go both ways for my team.  I'm ok with it...we all know how it works, going into the tournament. 

The only way I can think of allowing kids to wrestle more than 5 matches in a day would be to purchase additional insurance for the refs.  I'm not sure if this is even possible, but I believe that's how some of the national tourneys like Cincy 3-way gets away with going beyond the 5 match rule.  I don't know how the refs would feel about this, but when i've asked refs about this...they were not interested at all. 

It's great to discuss this stuff on the message boards, but the only place it will get resolved is at a coaches meeting.  The next m.s. statewide coaches meeting is 5/20/2007, at lexington lafayette h.s cafeteria.  at 2pm.

I'd like to see this changed as well. I've seen some wrestlers end up losing their first match but make it to were they could wrestle for 5th or 3erd but end up having to forfeit because of the 5 matches a day. I think 7 matches a day would be better, at least for those saturday tournnaments.

I can't believe that it has anything to do with insurance for the ref's, I wouldn't think they are reliable for any kind of injury, accident, etc.?  I dont understand what they have to do with it, but it doesn't bother me as a ref.  It's just an enforcement of a rule, so change the rule and there wouldn't be a problem i would think.  The bad thing about not inviting as many schools is that many of us don't have full teams so then you have a 8 man bracket with maybe sometimes only 3-4 guys.  then they don't get many matches and it's a long day for some people to just watch others wrestle. 

The only way I can think of allowing kids to wrestle more than 5 matches in a day would be to purchase additional insurance for the refs.  I'm not sure if this is even possible, but I believe that's how some of the national tourneys like Cincy 3-way gets away with going beyond the 5 match rule.  I don't know how the refs would feel about this, but when i've asked refs about this...they were not interested at all. 

It's great to discuss this stuff on the message boards, but the only place it will get resolved is at a coaches meeting.  The next m.s. statewide coaches meeting is 5/20/2007, at lexington lafayette h.s cafeteria.  at 2pm.

I can't believe that it has anything to do with insurance for the ref's, I wouldn't think they are reliable for any kind of injury, accident, etc.?  I dont understand what they have to do with it, but it doesn't bother me as a ref.  It's just an enforcement of a rule, so change the rule and there wouldn't be a problem i would think.  The bad thing about not inviting as many schools is that many of us don't have full teams so then you have a 8 man bracket with maybe sometimes only 3-4 guys.  then they don't get many matches and it's a long day for some people to just watch others wrestle. 

From what i've been told, it has everything to do with the insurance for the refs.  Referees are insured through some national organization.  (You'll have to check with a KHSAA certified ref to get the details.  I don't know who it is, but they are.  Ask one of the more experienced refs).  Referees are very much responsible for the safety of the wrestlers on the mat.  If they know you are violating the 5 match rule, they will straight up refuse to referee.  If a kid gets injured, they know their insurance is void.  I've been told this by 2 coaches that host multiple tournaments per year, and by 1 or 2 refs.  I'm not saying I couldn't be wrong here, but the people i've talked to said no way will they ref if they know we are violating the 5 match rule.  I'm not saying i like this rule....but there has to be some limit.  If I'm wrong on this, if there's a certified ref out there, please correct me.  We've been struggling with this for a few years now.

Well their insurance would be void if you VIOLATED the five match rule. but if the rule changed, then so would the insurance for the refs, making it perfectly fine to wrestle more than five matches.

Well their insurance would be void if you VIOLATED the five match rule. but if the rule changed, then so would the insurance for the refs, making it perfectly fine to wrestle more than five matches.

I see your point now.  Sometimes i'm just thick headed.  If you were to change that at a national level, that would be the way to go.

Don't other states, i.e. Ohio, not require a the wrestler to forfeit but the match is a draw if they come up to match six.

Also maybe some orginization in these tournaments would solve the problem. 

this is what I was trying to say, it isn't up to the insurance as to if the can wrestle 5 matches once the rule is changed.  If they did it now with the rule in place then yes I could see a problem, but you would have to prove I think that the referee knew it was his sixth match.  It's not up to them to keep track of it, it's the tournament directors responsibility where i would think most of the liability would rest.

Well their insurance would be void if you VIOLATED the five match rule. but if the rule changed, then so would the insurance for the refs, making it perfectly fine to wrestle more than five matches.

this is what I was trying to say, it isn't up to the insurance as to if the can wrestle 5 matches once the rule is changed.  If they did it now with the rule in place then yes I could see a problem, but you would have to prove I think that the referee knew it was his sixth match.  It's not up to them to keep track of it, it's the tournament directors responsibility where i would think most of the liability would rest.

I agree...but if you've ever run a tournament...then you know if you try to sneak a 6th match in on a ref....they will not be happy at all if they find out about it.  that's my point.  yes, if you could somehow get this raised to 6 matches, that would be great.  some tournaments disregard the 6th match rule...as someone else pointed out for example at the cincy 3-way nationals, you could wrestle 9 matches in a day.  they do this by going through another insurance provider for the ref...probably USAW i think. 

One thing i would like to change is the fact that forfeits count as a match wrestled. At middle school state the kid that was supposed to wrestle me for third place had really only had 4 matches, but he had a forfeit which counted as a match even though all he did was walk on the mat and get his hand raised.

I agree, forfeits should not count.  If they did not physically wrestle in a match it should not count toward the 5 match rule.

Yea, the forfeit part stinks.  I've heard other people say it should go by total match time too.  I like this idea better.  For example, you're allowed 30 minutes of wrestling per day.  That way if a kid gets 3 first period pins, he can wrestle another match or 2. 

Yeah that's a good idea, but they would never go for that because of the amount of time it would take to calculate all of that.

The problem with that is if you have a match that goes into overtime then you could conceivable run out of time before you hit 5 matches even.  or if you leave enough time in there to account for the possibility of overtime than you have almost allowed 6 matches, so might as well just change it to 6 in a day.  I do like the idea of forfeits not counting, I have never understood that or an injury default either if you don't wrestle.

forfeits should count as a win in a dual match, maybe not a six point win, but a win none the less. and you should get the advancement points and placements points for byes and forfeits in tournaments, but they should not count towards your five matches. and for your record, maybe a separate section, like your total wins, total losses, then forfeits or something. and if it came down to it for seeding purposes include the forfeits in the win catagory or something. maybe thats just a stupid idea, but hey i'm throwing it out there.

I don't think that the 5 match rule should just be completely done away with but I do think that it should be revised. Maybe bump it up to 6 or 7 matches?

I still can't believe that they call it a forfeit when, due to the rules or poor planning, a wrestler can't continue.  I also find it odd that any self-respecting wrestler would count a forfeit as a win, do they count them in duals when the other team doesn't have a wrestler?  Lastly, like I said before, in Ohio they count as a draw, both wrestlers lose.  It is a real shame that they make a guy forfeit due to poor planning.

I also find it odd that any  wrestler would count a forfeit as a win, do they count them in duals when the other team doesn't have a wrestler? 

Forfeits are wins especially in duals.  Why would you not count it as a win.  If you go to a dual and your opponent does not make weight, are you to be punished because you made weight and he did not?  Should wrestlers be punished because they made weight and the opposing team can't fill their wt. classes. What about the returning state champion who gets forfeits because the opposing team has a 1st year wrestler that the coach does not allow to wrestle him? 

Of course it is a win.  Most wrestlers don't like forfeits, but they are still part of the sport and should continue to be counted as part of your overall record. 

The problem with that is if you have a match that goes into overtime then you could conceivable run out of time before you hit 5 matches even.  or if you leave enough time in there to account for the possibility of overtime than you have almost allowed 6 matches, so might as well just change it to 6 in a day.  I do like the idea of forfeits not counting, I have never understood that or an injury default either if you don't wrestle.

Forfeits count in Tournaments because the wrestler recieves advancement points for the team.

I am sorry I even responded.  I guess they should count whatever victories they want, scrimmages, wrestle-offs, byes whatever.  However, my one question is shouldn't every win in the win column should have a counterpart in someones loss column?  My point being if a kid doesn't  make weight in a five team dual, does he automatically chaulk up four loses?

If team "A" does not make weight at 103 the individual wrestler does not recieve a loss.

Team "A" recieves a loss at 103, but no-one keeps track of the team's wt. class record.

Back to the original topic.  If a guy hits five matches, it is no fault of his own, it should be a draw and both receive third place or fifth place.  But if in KY they count it as a forfeit the guy that wrestled five matches gets an automatic loss and takes fourth place or sixth.  I don't know, but is this how things work. If it was missed I am for the five match rule.  After five tough matches a wrestler should be spent and not able to perform to his/her potential and not be subjected to an automatic loss.

This rule also took place during the Region 7 tournament. A couple kids had to forfeit the 3rd/4th place matches and even the 5th/6th for alternate placement.

yeah, i understand alot of kids were dissapointed, and they have a right to be.

Those regions that will have the possiblity to reach the 5 match rule should be required to make it a 2 day tournament.

I can remember back in the stone age when I wrestled that we had a couple of districts and even a region that was 2 days.

a two day tournament is way to much of a hassel if you ask me. i say we just fix the match rule limit. seems like that would be the easier way to go.

So what happens do we change the rule to 6 then when that rule becomes a problem we go to 7. 

The reason it is at 5 is because this is an adequate amount of time for a wrestler to recouperate after a match.  A match takes between 10-15 minutes to finish which means actually 1 match an hour. 

We didn't seem to think it was too much of a hasstle to extend the state tourney to 3 days.  Why not have one round on Friday night, and continue the tourney the next day. 

So what happens do we change the rule to 6 then when that rule becomes a problem we go to 7. 

The reason it is at 5 is because this is an adequate amount of time for a wrestler to recouperate after a match.  A match takes between 10-15 minutes to finish which means actually 1 match an hour. 

We didn't seem to think it was too much of a hasstle to extend the state tourney to 3 days.  Why not have one round on Friday night, and continue the tourney the next day. 

well for some regions this is tough with all of the teams being widespread through the state. and then you have to make weight two days in a row, and you have to pay twice. and get the refs two days too and pay them as well. i mean its quite more expensive to run a two day tournament than a one day tournament expecially a small tournament like region. i mean region itself isnt small by any means but the brackets are. i mean most of our brackets only had 8 to ten people in them. it was probably poor tournament managing that the five match rule came into play.

6 matches will not become a problem if tournaments stay with a 16 man bracket.  That allows you to lose the first round and wrestle alllll the way back...and just for the record i dont remember what weight but one kid in the region 7 tournament did have to forefit his match to be an alternate (so he placed 6th) because he had already wrestled five.  So it does come into play

I think it happend around 4 times for the 5-6th place matches. There was no way to avoid this in a 16 man bracket.

i agree I never liked the rule in middle school (espesially state) and there are still times when it happens in high school to guys who would potentially win the match

I think the rule should be removed I have wrestled in tournaments where my teamates spent the entire day wrestling back, only to be told they couldnt get third because of the match limit.  I think with as hard as we train we should be capable of having six or seven matches in one day.

When I saw William Northington take a forfiet for 3rd at middle school state at 140, that was it. The rule is to restrictive and needs to be changed. We don't spend 2 or 3 hours a day bustin' our butts and WRESTLING just to spend a maximum of a few dozen minutes on the mat before we are cut off. Why don't they just limit practice to 30 minutes because we're sure were doin' alot more wrestling there than we are at some tournament. :roll:

When I saw William Northington take a forfiet for 3rd at middle school state at 140, that was it. The rule is to restrictive and needs to be changed. We don't spend 2 or 3 hours a day bustin' our butts and WRESTLING just to spend a maximum of a few dozen minutes on the mat before we are cut off. Why don't they just limit practice to 30 minutes because we're sure were doin' alot more wrestling there than we are at some tournament. :roll:

that is a great point. i wrestle three to four matches BACK TO BACK with just a one minute break to find a new partner at practice. im sure we can wrestle more than five matches a day. why was this rule put into effect in the first place? no one has explained it yet, all anyone says is it is to protect the wrestler. protect them from what? are they more likely to be injured if they are more tired or what?

When I saw William Northington take a forfiet for 3rd at middle school state at 140, that was it. The rule is to restrictive and needs to be changed. We don't spend 2 or 3 hours a day bustin' our butts and WRESTLING just to spend a maximum of a few dozen minutes on the mat before we are cut off. Why don't they just limit practice to 30 minutes because we're sure were doin' alot more wrestling there than we are at some tournament. :roll:

That is true, it is not untypical for a wrestler to have 6 or 7 matches in a practice, and these matches can go as long as 9 minutes a piece.  So if we train to do it in practice with no break, why cant we do it in a tournament, with the break.