Where in the rule book is the tap out mention.  And what effect/ruling are effect occurs when this happens.

In Judo...it is " the match is over", " I quit"," uncle".

I saw this at least 4 times.........but the match wasnt over........................

Very interesting....

rule 8-2 is on injury.  there isn't anything that specifies tapout, but it states that "an injured or ill contestant is entitled to a maximum injury time-out of 1 1/2 minutes which is cumulative throughout the match.  there is a limit of two injury time-outs which may be permitted in any match".  but it also states at the end that taking an injury time-out for a non-injury situation is unethical, see coaches code of ethics. 

I will give a perfect example of  individual wrestlers being penalized for schools developing reputations of "tap outs". After the tournament I was talking to two officials about tap outs. One official commented there is more than one way to "skin a rat" and laughed while he told me the scenario. During consolation rounds a wrestler from the school with the reputation of tapping out, received adverse judgment calls such as out of bound takedowns and stalling. This resulted in both kids losing very close highly controversial matches. The ref gloated and stated he will not tolerate tapping out from schools. He said he made up for the tap out calls earlier. Both wrestlers from the school were unjustly punished and should have been the victor of the match.

Personally, I believe this type of refereeing is unethically and equally disgusting as it penalizes an honest wrestler simply because he wears a school's colors. If my son wrestled for the school and was singled out, I would be very upset. Unfortunately, this is reality and a particular school now has to deal with fans booing them and certain refs giving them bad calls in order to equalize bad behavior from other wrestlers. I don't believe the varsity coaches are teaching their wrestlers this behavior and from my limited experience with the coaches, they appear to be very honest individuals with integrity. Now they have a problem and how they deal with it may, in part, determine if their team wins state next year.

I was talking to my coach about this the other day at state. I saw 5 or 6 taps. I saw a Woodford Co wrestler [not gonna name anybody] tap and it wasn't called. Do you think maybe the refs aren't watching for the taps well enough? Every taps that I saw wasn't called. All except for the 189 from Trinity. I think he may have been called for a tap. But besides that, there were some pretty obvious tap-outs that went unnoticed.

i believe a "tap" should mean you give up. tapping like in ufc or mma means YOU GIVE UP, so if you tap they your saying you give up right? if your on your back and you tap thats a load of s---, the ref should call you pinned rather than let you up. my opinion

i believe a "tap" should mean you give up. tapping like in ufc or mma means YOU GIVE UP, so if you tap they your saying you give up right? if your on your back and you tap thats a load of s---, the ref should call you pinned rather than let you up. my opinion

This is not the WWE, nor is it full contact fighting.

There is no tap out in wrestling.  The only reason for a wrestler to even use this technique would be if he is being suffocated by his opponent. 

If a wrestler is injured he can scream out in pain or whatever is needed.  However when you are being suffocated by your opponent you cannot signal the official.  I know this from experience.  In a freestyle match my opponents stomach was covering my face and I passed out from suffocation. 

I know that officials cannot see everything, and this is what happened to me. They did not know until he called the pin and my opponent got off of me. 

Even though this method is being misused.  You cannot punish the wrestlers that may use this for good reasons.

IMO if a wrestler is at a disadvantage and they "tap-out" or "cry" they should be penalized because it has become a strategy.  If a wrestler is not using an illegal move or the move is not potentialy dangerous and a wrestler taps out i feal that it shall count as a forfeit. :x

I think that, in most cases, it should be considered a forfeit unless it is absolutely nessecary. And it you do tap purely for strategy, then I believe they award 4 back points to the other wrestler so even then it isn't very smart.

What if a wrestler is up by 8 points and put on his back in a deep hold late in the third period? What good will 4 points do for the wrestler losing when he must pin. Faking an injury is wrong especially when on your back. It should count as a fall if someone cries out on their back.

If you are on your back and want up that bad because you can't breath, then put your shoulder on the mat.  that will get you up...

Dave Barnett's opinion used to be, "If they say that they can't breathe - they'll get all the air they want in 2 seconds when I hit the mat."  Yet, he was the ref that was giving most of the tap-outs!  I wonder if KHSAA had addressed this with the refs in advance and said that their priority was the safety of the wrestlers.

Safety is one issue - but so is integrity.  If this sport is going to be reputable, then a tap out needs to be the end of the match. 

rule 8-2 is on injury.  there isn't anything that specifies tapout, but it states that "an injured or ill contestant is entitled to a maximum injury time-out of 1 1/2 minutes which is cumulative throughout the match.  there is a limit of two injury time-outs which may be permitted in any match".  but it also states at the end that taking an injury time-out for a non-injury situation is unethical, see coaches code of ethics. 

This became an issue years ago when wrestlers used the injury time out for a rest break.

At this time officials were ignoring wrestlers' complaints of injury and allowed the match to continue. 

A few injury's and legitimate law suits later, the rule was changed in that a referee cannot determine if a wrestler is hurt or not and must give the wrestler asking for the time out the benefit of the doubt.  Referee's are not doctors and therefore cannot determine injury. 

This led to the 1 1/2 time limit and 2 time outs and the second time out giving the other wrestler his choice of position.

When it still continued the extra point near fall came into affect. 

My belief is this.

1.  The wrestler that is calling time out in a bad situation will still lose the match in 99% of the cases. 

2.  Its the responsibility of their coach to make the right decision.  I know if I were coaching a wrestler that called a time out in this situation and it was called not for injury I would default the match.  You cannot make this a decision of the official for the same reason they cannot deny injury time.

There will always be those that abuse rules, what about those that cause their opponent to jump by flicking their fingers on the bottom wrestlers belly to cause a false start, and those that push a figure four to a scissors to make it potentially dangerous and break the hold? 

Grappler-of-old I respectfully disagree about the 99% rule. Down state that tapping out caused a kid to get knocked out of the state. The wrestler was leading by more than 4 win he tapped out after getting placed on his back. He went on and won the match and advanced. The same wrestler, during the next round, did the same thing when he was flat on his back with a commanding lead. Fortunately, the other wrestler turned up the heat and was able to tie it up only to go into overtime and win.

If a linebacker breaks his leg during a play and misses the tackle he can't cry out and bring back the runner from a touchdown run. A marathon runner can't take a shortness of breath time out and make others stop running until he gets his breath back. A boxer can't take a time out during the round while getting his head beat in. Wrestling is a mental and physical sport. Part of the objective is to physically wear down your opponent and capitalize off better conditioning. This time out, tap out, I need a break garbage, is pitiful and a disgrace. All the coach has to do is forfeit the match and this problem resolves immediately. If a coach is serious about getting rid of a bad reputation, they should do the right thing and forfeit when this happens.

The 99% of the time thinking is way wrong, it seems the guy who taps is the one who is up and then gets turned and can't seem to get out of it like he would want to. 

The lawsuit issue, people are going to be morons and sue anyone for anything and win because it's cheaper to settle than argue the situation in court. 

How about if he is on his back and can't breathe than they start over, get the injury time and then after the wrestler says he is ok, they start back with that tapout wrestler on his back.  Let him get a half nelson in or a cradle and go from there?  Never happen, but would be nice. 

I don't think anyone that is tapping out right now would concede the match.

i believe a "tap" should mean you give up. tapping like in ufc or mma means YOU GIVE UP, so if you tap they your saying you give up right? if your on your back and you tap thats a load of s---, the ref should call you pinned rather than let you up. my opinion

I completely agree the 4 point nearfall is not enough if a wrestler tries to tap off his back he should be called pinned because he is GIVING UP

1st time 4 points and restart in the position left off.2nd DQ, a bag of popcorn and a trip to the bleachers

All the coach has to do is forfeit the match and this problem resolves immediately. If a coach is serious about getting rid of a bad reputation, they should do the right thing and forfeit when this happens.

This is exactly what I was referring to.  Think about the Nky coaches, how many would forfeit if they knew their kid was crying wolf.  I think most of them would.

what would it take to get the rules around this modified?  i think this should be very simple for a ref.  if the kid taps, IF the ref does not see an illegal hold of any kind, that tap means the match is over.  if he sees an illegal hold, then break the move and award the appropriate penalty points.

i think it shouldn't be left up to the coaches discretion.  i agree with you grappler-of-old, that most nky coaches would forfeit the match if they knew without a doubt that their kid cried wolf...i also believe most coaches in the state would...and contrary to a lot of people's beliefs...i very, very seriously doubt any coaches are "coaching" their kids to do this.  i think it has just become something that certain kids from certain teams have made a habbit because they've seen other kids do this.  knowing some of these coaches that are being questioned, i have no doubt they do not teach kids to "tap out" or cry wolf. 

to the kids that are doing this, you are putting your coaches in a VERY bad spot.  you have made your coaches appear to be "cheaters".  out of respect for your coaches and this sport, please don't tap out unless you are seriously injured or are completely being choked out. 

Plee, I believe the coaches knew this was going on and did nothing about it. It is not like this suddenly developed at the state meet. The coaches made a conscious decision to let it ride and did nothing. Certainly they knew the kids were doing it and opponents were being cheated out of a victory. Although I don't believe they taught the cheating technique, they allowed it to continue thereby enabling the behavior.

High school coaches are supposed to be mentors, role models and even the parent figure at times. That means they have to occasionally make unpopular decisions and be disciplinarians. Their wrestler is no more important than the other kid. The better kid, better wrestler should win. By allowing/enabling this behavior they were just as guilty as the minor child doing the bad behavior, they simply choose to do nothing. That makes them guilty in my eyes. Only now that there is a public outcry will something be done.  They should have acted before thousands of fans were booing their school. In retrospect, none of those individual matches were more important then the reputation of a school and the integrity of the program. Unfortunately, that school has a serious image problem that I believe wholeheartedly will be addressed by the coaching staff.  Just keep in mind, guilt should be distributed equally, not just with the offending kids.

Unfortunately, nothing can be done to give the other kids cheated out of the tournament another opportunity. It was not just the opponents who were cheated, I know factually 2 kids from that team were cheated by bad ref calls as retrobution to the tapping out behavior, I was personally told this by 2 refs.  I'm sure the coaches know exactly what match I am talking about. Everyone loses with this behavior.

I have followed most of Trinity's matches this season.  They have a few of the so-called

I agree that tapping out or crying for injury time while on your back is wrong. It is without a doubt the coaches responsibility to let the wrestlers of their school know that it is not acceptable and will not be tolerated. That kind of behavior is contagious. Step it up coach and squash that kind of behavior before it brings down your whole school.

Justaminute, I never said it was Trinity crying out, do you have a complex?

Justaminute, I never said it was Trinity crying out, do you have a complex?

Sorry, I wasn't really responding to you.  I think my post was before yours.  I was referring to some earlier posts on this topic and on the multiple comments in the "unsportmanlike" topic where it turned into an attack on the FC now Trinity program middle school program.  I am actually trying to avoid a complex...by the way, I agree 100% with your first post in that the coach, regardless of what team, must nip any situation where a wrestler may be tapping to avoid a pin rather than a real injury.  I saw too many times where a wrestler this week laid on the mat writhing in pain until he started wrestling again and then had all the energy in the world and amazingly the pain was gone.

Justaminute, few if any of your points are valid. The supposed ACL tear came after he already ran out of injury time. It was his second injury that match with the first one occurring flat on his back. If he did tear his ACL I am sorry to hear about that. I never rejoice about a kid getting hurt. I hope he does well and recovers.

If crying out while on his back occurs once, its too many. Instantaneous forfeit should occur in my opinion. Coaches need to nip it in the bud early. I believe the coaches will stop this behavior now.

With all do respect, there is nothing you can tell me about exercise induced asthma that I am not aware of. I suggest you educate yourself by discussing this with a Pulmonologist. Medicines should be taken 30 minutes prior to the event. Once asthma has occurred, the 90 seconds of injury time is not sufficient to absorb the medicines, stop and reverse the attack.

You can certainly focus your energies or discontent towards me. I never mentioned Trinity in any of my comments. A coward I am not, but it is not worth getting into a physical altercation in front of a thousand people. I am all about results. I believe this is the best forum to point out and stop this behavior. But you should be equally disgusted that 2 of your kids were intentionally punished in the consolation rounds. Both kids should have won their matches and the calls made against Trinity was appalling and disgusting. If your kid, or any other kid deserves to win they should. But winning is a two way street 100% of the time. 4 examples is 4 too many in my opinion.

Unfortunately, nothing can be done to give the other kids cheated out of the tournament another opportunity. It was not just the opponents who were cheated, I know factually 2 kids from that team were cheated by bad ref calls as retrobution to the tapping out behavior, I was personally told this by 2 refs.  I'm sure the coaches know exactly what match I am talking about. Everyone loses with this behavior.

That is pathetic.  Those refs should be ashamed - and should be reported....a kid tapping a mat to get out of a hold is bad....a ref giving "retrobution calls" against other kids on the team is a disgrace.  If a ref is in a match where a kid is tapping or screaming out and he feels it's close enough to a pin to slap the mat...that's great, i think they should....but other than that..i don't agree with retrobution calls. 

Refs should simply apply the rules, nothing more nothing less.  In my mind, this is the same as a cop planting evidence on a suspect.  The refs are binded by the rules...from what I've been told, they have NO choice in the matter...if a kid screams out, or taps...the ref MUST stop the match.  I think therefore, get the rule changed.  If a kid taps, the ref should make an assessment...if there's an illegal move being applied, then break that match...award a penalty and move on.  If the ref DOES NOT see an illegal move, and a kid taps....it's like the coach throwing in the towel.  The match is OVER.

1 tap out, 1 too many tap outs. I can't give you one example in 7 years as a varsity wrestler where one of our team mates tapped out. Lets estimate 25,000 minutes of wrestling. Our coach did not allow it. If someone can give 4 examples in one year, that team has a big problem.

legitimate tap outs are rare. 

I have only seen it twice in my 25+ years in wrestling.

One that happened to me.  The ref called the pin and I passed out while being smothered by my opponents stomach and lost the match.

Second time I believe in the regional finals where a kid was chocked out by a front head lock, he tapped/pounded on his opponents arm and the ref allowed it to continue until he was turned to his back and pinned.  The wrestler had passed out and took several minutes for him to regain full consciousness.

So I would agree that 4 times in one season let alone twice in a tourney is way of the learning curve.

With all this talk there is always going to be two sides to it, one were people think it's wrong and two where trinity says it's not really a problem and the wrestler has asthma and had trouble breathing.  Trouble breathing on your back is not a result of asthma.  The only way to fix this problem is going to be take care of it in the off season and for it to not happen next year.  All the same arguments are being said over and over, but noone will really believe it is being fixed (side one) or think there is a problem (side 2).  So all this is just banter until next season and we see how it goes.  One simple solution for someone to save face 9 months from now....

With all this talk there is always going to be two sides to it, one were people think it's wrong and two where trinity says it's not really a problem and the wrestler has asthma and had trouble breathing.  Trouble breathing on your back is not a result of asthma.  The only way to fix this problem is going to be take care of it in the off season and for it to not happen next year.  All the same arguments are being said over and over, but noone will really believe it is being fixed (side one) or think there is a problem (side 2).  So all this is just banter until next season and we see how it goes.  One simple solution for someone to save face 9 months from now....

My point was actually that many of you have tried to imply that the entire team is doing this and it is being taught.  I have pointed out that it is only one wrestler who actually has a medical condition.  There is nothing to prove in 9 months because it isn't really a problem now.  But as you say, everyone has their own version and I know I will not convince anyone otherwise.

But you should be equally disgusted that 2 of your kids were intentionally punished in the consolation rounds. Both kids should have won their matches and the calls made against Trinity was appalling and disgusting. If your kid, or any other kid deserves to win they should. But winning is a two way street 100% of the time. 4 examples is 4 too many in my opinion.

Well since you know this for a fact then obviously you can prove it and two wrongs don't make a right.  You need to report these individuals immediately.  What do feel is the right thing to do?

Justaminute, few if any of your points are valid. The supposed ACL tear came after he already ran out of injury time. It was his second injury that match with the first one occurring flat on his back. If he did tear his ACL I am sorry to hear about that. I never rejoice about a kid getting hurt. I hope he does well and recovers.

If crying out while on his back occurs once, its too many. Instantaneous forfeit should occur in my opinion. Coaches need to nip it in the bud early. I believe the coaches will stop this behavior now.

With all do respect, there is nothing you can tell me about exercise induced asthma that I am not aware of. I suggest you educate yourself by discussing this with a Pulmonologist. Medicines should be taken 30 minutes prior to the event. Once asthma has occurred, the 90 seconds of injury time is not sufficient to absorb the medicines, stop and reverse the attack.

You can certainly focus your energies or discontent towards me. I never mentioned Trinity in any of my comments. A coward I am not, but it is not worth getting into a physical altercation in front of a thousand people. I am all about results. I believe this is the best forum to point out and stop this behavior. But you should be equally disgusted that 2 of your kids were intentionally punished in the consolation rounds. Both kids should have won their matches and the calls made against Trinity was appalling and disgusting. If your kid, or any other kid deserves to win they should. But winning is a two way street 100% of the time. 4 examples is 4 too many in my opinion.

I understand your point but can't prove that the refs actions were intentional, unfortunately.  My son was one of the recipients of the retribution...but again there is no way to prove it.  I think some of the referees should be banned if it can ever be proven.  Oh well.  You are right that I don't know much about asthma...I just know it is an issue for this particular individual.  I don't mean to repeat myself and maybe I am learning more about this topic, but it is not the entire Trinity team and I feel bad for our kids that it is being made out to be a total team issue.  People need to understand that Coach Rudolph will indeed not allow this to happen on an ongoing basis.  I guess I need to just shut up on the topic and wait until next year to prove it like Wrestler92 says.  Thanks for letting me vent.

Thank you Sportfamily, I have already emailed Julian Tackett about the ref. I did it yesterday morning. I was appalled about the calls and truly believe the Trinity boys got ripped off. I don't condone that behavior at all. Like I said, winning is a two way street 100% of the time. I suggest you also email Julian Tackett about the big ref with a bad, cheating attitude.

Wrestling is not all about winning the match. This sport teaches kids many lessons in life such as self reliance, the importance of training and focusing on a goal, dedication to both yourself and your team mates, mental toughness, and connecting the mind and body into a technical machine. The least important "life" lesson is how to wrestle.

Personally, I like many of the Trinity people. I believe Mark Hitchings, as an individual, has advanced the sport of wrestling in Kentucky more so than any other individual in the last few years. His oldest son was very impressive down state and will be a real force in the next few years. Trinity's head coach is a good person as well. This is not a personal attack against Trinity. I do believe the coaches will not allow it next year. But no one will ever convince me or many others that what happened at state was justified in anyway. Acknowledging there is/was a problem and assuring everyone it will not happen again will likely stop this issue. Maybe even apologizing that this problem got out of hand would go very far. But no can justify it.

I also believe Trinity will win state next year as a team. I hope when they get their trophy the fans don't boo them. Trinity has worked very hard and has a great team. I hope they do the right thing and let their kids know this behavior will never be tolerated. Not even 1 time in 3000 mintues of wrestling.

Well said and thanks for your kind words I-pinned-em-all.  I hope you are right about winning but I have to say that there are some very good teams in this state that will continue to be strong again next year.  It will be a tall order to beat the likes of Union, North Hardin, Fern Creek, Seneca and Woodford, just to name a few.  We'll have to see.  I will email Julian Tackett myself as well.  I know that it was not just Trinity that recieved the brunt of poor officiating from this referee.  I don't remember the school but I know another coach was livid over some calls in the consolation matches.

I think in the case of a tap out or squealing out when you are on your back the match should be over. If not though it should be a 5 point call and if the wrestler that tapped can continue he should start in the same position that he was in at the time of the tap and in the center of the mat. That should cut down if not eliminate these type of stunts. I seriously question the heart of a wrestler that would stoop to this type of stunt. I have seen wrestlers from a region 1 school actually tap and when the match was stopped they looked over at a team mate and winked and grinned. 95 % of the kids work too hard to be cheated in this manner and the penalty should be harsh to the ones that choose to tarnish the reputation of ky. high school wrestling

Thank you I-pinned-em-all for an adult response.  I agree that Hitchings has done a lot for the sport especially at the middle school level.  I have been around a lot of youth sports and will continue to be and I can tell you that I have never seen as much confidence in a group of young kids as I did in the Fern Creek Optimist/Club team.  Mark, Jeff Branch and the other coaches and parents that helped taught some kids to wrestle that did not have an athletic bone in their body.  Some of these kids still compete at the high school  level and are very competitive but otherwise would have never played or enjoyed a sport in high school.  If Trinity does happen to win state next year, Seneca (Trent) will say it is a conspiracy and everybody in the stands except the Trinity faithful will BOOOO.  Thanks again for being positive about these tapping problems and the ref problems.  I hope their is a solution and nobody is pointing fingers at any certain teams or individuals.