I have been a former head coach in KY and now a coach in IN.  I think the first thing you need to fight is

    #1 Coaches in the off season should be able to coach their wrestlers in the FS and GR styles of wrestling.  Great wrestlers aren't made in the 3-5 month period you get to coach them in folkstyle.  The time wrestlers make their biggest strides in this sport is in the FS & GR season.  Being able to take your wrestlers to FILA Cadet or JR nationals, NHSCA HS nationals, FARGO nationals is the best preparation for any wrestlers in the off season. When the state starts letting coaches run USA wrestling clubs for the kids, the state will produce better quality wrestlers.

  #2  Get rid of the 32 man bracket, there is about a total of 70-110 schools with wrestling in the state (estimation).  20-30 schools field a full team (varsity, JV, and freshman).  Many schools cant field a full varsity team.  I felt the state tournament (which was well run) is way to easy of a tournament.  There are times you will have wrestlers that don't even belong there but when you have 4 guys in a weight class at regions they will be at state.  I had a wrestler with a 1-??? record that made it to state because there were only 4 guys in the region.  If you want to get respect for our sport, build a stronger coaches association and bring up these concerns with the KHSAA.  Good luck with this battle, I hope for the best!   

I couldn't agree with you more.

Those are two of the biggest hinderances to the growth of wrestling in Kentucky.

I have been a former head coach in KY and now a coach in IN.  I think the first thing you need to fight is

     #1 Coaches in the off season should be able to coach their wrestlers in the FS and GR styles of wrestling.  Great wrestlers aren't made in the 3-5 month period you get to coach them in folkstyle.  The time wrestlers make their biggest strides in this sport is in the FS & GR season.  Being able to take your wrestlers to FILA Cadet or JR nationals, NHSCA HS nationals, FARGO nationals is the best preparation for any wrestlers in the off season. When the state starts letting coaches run USA wrestling clubs for the kids, the state will produce better quality wrestlers.

   #2  Get rid of the 32 man bracket, there is about a total of 70-110 schools with wrestling in the state (estimation).  20-30 schools field a full team (varsity, JV, and freshman).  Many schools cant field a full varsity team.  I felt the state tournament (which was well run) is way to easy of a tournament.  There are times you will have wrestlers that don't even belong there but when you have 4 guys in a weight class at regions they will be at state.  I had a wrestler with a 1-??? record that made it to state because there were only 4 guys in the region.  If you want to get respect for our sport, build a stronger coaches association and bring up these concerns with the KHSAA.  Good luck with this battle, I hope for the best!   

I feel ya on the 32-man bracket thing..

I have been a former head coach in KY and now a coach in IN.  I think the first thing you need to fight is

     #1 Coaches in the off season should be able to coach their wrestlers in the FS and GR styles of wrestling.  Great wrestlers aren't made in the 3-5 month period you get to coach them in folkstyle.  The time wrestlers make their biggest strides in this sport is in the FS & GR season.  Being able to take your wrestlers to FILA Cadet or JR nationals, NHSCA HS nationals, FARGO nationals is the best preparation for any wrestlers in the off season. When the state starts letting coaches run USA wrestling clubs for the kids, the state will produce better quality wrestlers.

   #2  Get rid of the 32 man bracket, there is about a total of 70-110 schools with wrestling in the state (estimation).  20-30 schools field a full team (varsity, JV, and freshman).  Many schools cant field a full varsity team.  I felt the state tournament (which was well run) is way to easy of a tournament.  There are times you will have wrestlers that don't even belong there but when you have 4 guys in a weight class at regions they will be at state.  I had a wrestler with a 1-??? record that made it to state because there were only 4 guys in the region.  If you want to get respect for our sport, build a stronger coaches association and bring up these concerns with the KHSAA.  Good luck with this battle, I hope for the best!   

I posted something on this. It seemed to draw a lot of attention.

The biggest thing is to get more kids wrestling on the national level

I agree with getting more kids wrestling at the national level.  But to do that you need quality coaches to make this happen.  With that said there are many quality coaches in the state but they cannot coach in the offseason when these national tournaments are being held.  Which comes to my first suggestion.  Coaches in Kentucky need a stronger association.  When this happens I feel that you can go to the KHSAA and start talking with them about this issue.  This is the most improtant issue to get taken care.  The sport will not grow as it should if this issue doesn't get fixed.  I had the opportunity to coach Team Indiana on 2 different occasions and will be on the coaching staff this summer and seeing the level of wrestling out at Fargo ND, IN has a great deal to work on, but when seeing our kids wrestle in that tournament then come back next year,  the jump in ability and confidence is unbelievable.

When I was a coach in KY I never heard about a coaches association at all.  That was only 4 years ago.  I think there is one but I needs to be a lot stronger for your sport to grow. Good luck!!!!!!! 

I agree with getting more kids wrestling at the national level.  But to do that you need quality coaches to make this happen.  With that said there are many quality coaches in the state but they cannot coach in the offseason when these national tournaments are being held.  Which comes to my first suggestion.  Coaches in Kentucky need a stronger association.  When this happens I feel that you can go to the KHSAA and start talking with them about this issue.  This is the most improtant issue to get taken care.  The sport will not grow as it should if this issue doesn't get fixed.  I had the opportunity to coach Team Indiana on 2 different occasions and will be on the coaching staff this summer and seeing the level of wrestling out at Fargo ND, IN has a great deal to work on, but when seeing our kids wrestle in that tournament then come back next year,  the jump in ability and confidence is unbelievable.

When I was a coach in KY I never heard about a coaches association at all.  That was only 4 years ago.  I think there is one but I needs to be a lot stronger for your sport to grow. Good luck!!!!!!! 

What exactly is their reasoning for not allowing coaches to coach their wrestlers during the off-season? I don't understand.

I think this rule about not coaching in the off season comes from the big 2. Basketball and Football.  Many coaches were making mandatory practaces outside the season.  This was causing kids to not be able to play more than one sport.

Many still believe that coaches will start this again. 

I agree with grappler-of-old on this one.

No offense to coaches, fans, etc., but changing the coaching-out-of-KHSAA-season rule is a lost cause. The KHSAA won't change it for only one sport and if you change it for everything, you're throwing support behind the mandatory-practices-six-months-before-the-season-starts theory. Not good.

Don't get me wrong: I FULLY BELIEVE COACHING KIDS IN THE KHSAA OFFSEASON WOULD HELP WRESTLING IN THIS STATE. I do. I won't fight you on that.

But getting the rule changed is a completely different animal. And I'm not sure that's a beast you can tame.

And I've stated my opinions on the 32-man bracket: Get rid of it, post-haste. Go back to the district-region-state scenario. Having winless wrestlers (which is possible if a region bracket only has four in a weight class) or wrestlers with less than 10 wins at State helps the sport how, exactly?

Football just got hammered for this when it went to six classes. Maybe it's just me, but I'm not seeing how mandating that struggling programs like Iroquois, Moore, Fort Knox, etc., are in the playoffs every year is going to help the sport. Getting beat 60-6 in your final game is a good thing? You can't be serious.

In the old days, making the district playoffs was a big accomplishment (especially in an 8- or 9-team district). This coming season, 90 percent of all teams in each class automatically qualify for districts.

I know it's a different sport, but would the March Madness be as special if 256 of the 300+ schools were involved? I personally say no, no, no.

The easier it is to advance to a level, the less cherished getting to that said level should be. State, being the final level for a kid in KY, should be hard to get to and involve the best (or most of the best) we have to offer.

the thoughts behind splitting up districts and keeping a 32 man bracket is all about involvement for the kids and more money to be raised for the khsaa.  They are thinking it's more likely to get some kids out for the sport if they think they stand a chance of getting to state, regardless of his win/loss record.  The same thing with football.  If a team like Iroquios/Moore has to play trinity, St. X, Fern Creek they know they don't stand a chance to win so they may not even want to be on a team that loses every game and there fore not even play. 

This is a debate that has been going on for a long time. 

    Kids and athletes alike have been coddled by the systems.  They don't know what it is like to earn what they want. 

    It's gotten so bad it's difficult to give awards to your team.  People say "you can't give just 2 or 3 awards to a team and leave 4 or 5 kids out".  "You need to make sure every team member earns an award".

    What good is that? What exactly is it teaching that child/athlete? 

    I remember that 1st losing season and seeing many of my teammates get awards at the banquet.  My thought to myself was. "I want one of those awards" "I'm going to work my rear off to get one next year".  I finally did but it took awhile and it is still hanging up at my house, the award now over 20 years old. But it reminds me of how hard I worked to get it.  The trophies and medals I won just because there were a couple in my wt. class are lost or thrown away. 

    It use to be a big thing if you made it to state.  Wrestlers only goal was to make it to the state tourney, now if you don't make it you must be terrible (0r so they think) and we are probably losing wrestlers for this reason.

    Unfortunately today's society believes in giving things to people that don't earn it.  Or to make sure we don't hurt little Johnny's feelings. 

    Make the state tourney something special, make it difficult to get there.  Teach these wrestlers that sometimes you don't get what you want and you are disappointed.  Make them work harder for what they want instead of giving up. 

Football just got hammered for this when it went to six classes. Maybe it's just me, but I'm not seeing how mandating that struggling programs like Iroquois, Moore, Fort Knox, etc., are in the playoffs every year is going to help the sport. Getting beat 60-6 in your final game is a good thing? You can't be serious.

#1- If Iroquois is a struggling program, what is Central Hardin?  Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Iroquois, Moore or Fort Knox went to 6-A.  So now that we are not in a district with Male, Manual and X how is that hurting us.

#2- Football playoffs are nothing like the wrestling post season so quit comparing the two. 

#1- If Iroquois is a struggling program, what is Central Hardin?  Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Iroquois, Moore or Fort Knox went to 6-A.  So now that we are not in a district with Male, Manual and X how is that hurting us.

#2- Football playoffs are nothing like the wrestling post season so quit comparing the two. 

If you want to throw Central Hardin in there too, fine. Doesn't bother me any.

You COMPLETELY missed my point. If you think there were a bunch of useless first-round blowouts BEFORE in the 4-A system, imagine how many more there will be in the 6-A system. And no, Fort Knox did not move up to 6-A. However, it did get put in a 2-A district with Washington County (steadily improving), Danville (powerhouse) and Bardstown (powerhouse). When a team is looking at a first-round playoff game with Danville or Bardstown every year, playoff wins will be few; blowouts will be many. And getting crushed by Bardstown or Danville twice a season helps Fort Knox how?

And yes, I know football and wrestling are different. I'm not comparing the sports; I'm comparing the ease of getting into postseason.

If EVERYONE gets to experience something, what makes it so special ... nothing at all. Nothing.

I don't understand why coaches can't coach their kids in the offseason.  I mean I know we say the rule was put in for the big 2 sports but they do find ways around it.  How else do you explain basketball coaches holding "open gyms" during the summer and football coaches having "passing tournaments" and practices during the May & June months that are considered perfectly legit?  There are ways around it and I know it happens anyways.  It seems to me that the KHSAA would just make this legal for all schools as opposed to having some schools with a disadvantage.  If you have a school who is not what you would consider a major power in Kentucky wrestling they may be lucky to only have 1 coach.  However some of the other big schools have assistants, middle school coaches, ex-wrestlers, and so who can coach the kids.  Make it a level playing field for all.  Believe it or not the situation is great for a paraprofessional in comparison to a teacher/coach.  All paraprofessionals have their contracts terminated at the end of the coaching season and have to re-apply for the job as they are not permanent employees of the school system such as teachers are.  That means don't re-apply until just before the fall wrestling season and you can coach your kids all summer long without penalty.  How about that.

As for the 32 man bracket, being from Indiana, I don't like it.  However, I do think until the sport grows a little more in Kentucky, it is essential to have, in order to gain interest for new kids.  Ask a kid if he wants to wrestle and most of the time they say no.  Ask a kid if he wants to wrestle and tell him he has a chance to go to state and your chance is better to get that kid to come out at least for a little bit.  The more kids who come out to wrestle, the more your are going to keep in the end.

As for the Moore, Iroquois, Ft. Knox, Male, Manual, etc. stuff, I don't believe in that.  If you can play, or in this case wrestle, then you can wrestle.  Whether it is a 32 man bracket or a 16 man bracket you are going to get mismatches just as in football with its 4 classes or 6 classes.  If you don't believe me go to IHSAA.org and look up their state wrestling results.  Not all matches are exciting, edge of your seat, nailbitters.  In Indiana, it is not necessarily the 16 man bracket that allows for the "chance" of better competition at state, it is the 3 weekends before state that make that possible.  You have to be on your game just 1 weekend in Kentucky to make it to state 32 man bracket or not.  In Indiana, you have to be at your best 3 weekends in a row.  Like I stated before, Kentucky still needs to keep the 32 man bracket for state until the interest increases and the sport grows immensely.  Once that happens, I do believe that will eventually happen, then go to the district, regional, state format with a 16 man bracket.

Now onto a thought that I think will help to improve wrestling in Kentucky that has not been mentioned, how about better school support!  It is simple.  The more support you get from your administration and AD, the better your chances of having a competitive and highly successful program.  In addition to this, middle school wrestling is key as well.  In Kentucky, 7th & 8th graders can compete at the high school level.  Not so in Indiana and why would they.  The amount of middle school interest, tournaments, etc. in Indiana is far greater than in Kentucky.  Get the kids interested and wrestling while they are young and support them throughout and you have a chance to be successful.

The 32 man bracket is fine.  If it offends the old school 'purists'  so what.  This is for the kids.  If they can go home and say they made it to state, then good for them.  It doesn't change the fact that the good kids will come out on top, it just gives them an extra match.  If it screws up the draws, then so what as well, ultimately you have to beat the best to be the best.  If the 32 man bracket grows interest, and makes some kids feel better about the grueling wrestling season, then it's working just fine.

More AD support?  THat's a school dependant issue.  Some schools (Mine) have great AD's who stand behind you completely.  Some schools don't.  It's a personnel issue and not something that can be changed at any level past the school.  My AD has worked with me to get a freestyle program, mat time, a middle school program going, and has walked hand in hand with us all the way.  At Doss (where you're at D.Master, correct?) that may not be the case.  I can't change your AD anymore than I can change St.X's AD.  That's all up to the coach and the system.  If you're AD isn't supportive, that sucks, and it needs to go to next level i.e the building principal, the asst. and head directors of athletics for the district, or just do what works best usually, which is get a mob of parents on it.  Not to say that you haven't done that, just stating some suggesstions.

As far as coaching in the off season, I understand the reasoning why we're not allowed to, but don't understand why it applies to wrestling.  There are plenty of ways to work around it.  Get your USA card and join the club where you're kids are at.  Train there for senior/masters events.  If you have a kid, take them to the club, etc etc.  There are ways around it, but the point is we shouldn't have to do it that way.  Want to change that, then as a coaches association we need to lobby the state to change the rule.  Now, before someone says the KWCA is a joke, remember it is what we have, and it's only a joke if no one utilizes it.  So, as the HC for North Oldham, who else is onboard for getting a group togather and going to Tackett and the commitees to change this?  I figure the only we can attempt to change it is the democratic tradition of getting our voices heard.

Great Post NOHS!

Finally someone willing to take the bull by the horns!

I am only a parent and my son has only a year left but I will lend support to your effort!

I totally agree the KWCA may not currently provide much support in this area but it does exist,  at least it can be a a starting point.

Good Luck!

PS:  If someone has a problem with what bragging about getting to state means now vs years ago, they need to remember, its what you do at state that matters most, not how you got there. As far as other state's perception of KY wrestling, the only way to change it is to compete more nationally and beat the competition. Develop the structure for the HS coaches to support voluntary off season wrestling and the national participation will increase and perception will improve.

I will say this.  We have gotten more kids to the state tourney since the 32 man bracket. 

This has however been a downfall at my school.

When I qualify 1-3 kids from my team and we only have 5-7 kids on the team the school has a problem spending $1000 on room and board for a team with less than a dozen kids.  We have lost school supprt because of this.

When it was District Region and state we would qualify 1 kid and stay 1 or 2 nights. 

I'm not saying this is the norm, but it is what has happened at my school. Truth is I had more kids on my teams before the 32 man bracket. When I talk to kids about wrestling and bring up that they can qualify for the state tourny.  They say "So what" if "So and so" can make it anyone can, your state tourney is a joke.

NOHS, I agree with most of the points you are making & it is a good post.  As for the AD issue, I agree it is a school dependent issue.  It sounds like your AD is wonderful to work with.  How do you think your program would be if he/she wasn't?  Take out your support structure you have in place and how would it truly be?  I just have a couple of more questons?  How old is your program and how much have you improved in that time?  My whole point is that AD and ADMINISTRATIVE support will help improve wrestling programs at each school.  The more schools who have better wrestling programs, then the more competition we will have in this state.  Sure some schools will have it and some won't.  Bottom line is that if your AD or Administration (I'm not saying mine is bad) doesn't support you, then there is not a whole lot you can do to change that.  You then fight an uphill battle and it makes it difficult to coach in general.  You tend to fight other issues instead of just simply coach.  I'm sure there are plenty of coaches who would agree that AD support is either key to their success or lack thereof is a hinderance for them.  I honestly don't know too many programs who have great support that don't have succesful programs.  I'm sorry but I thought the thread was thoughts to improve wrestling in Kentucky.  To me that doesn't just mean what the KHSAA can do like legalize offseason coaching and  get rid of 32 man brackets.  To me that also goes down to what each individual school can do.  As for parent support, well that's another story.  It also sounds like you agree with me that there are plenty of ways around coaching your kids in the offseason and that we shouldn't have to do this.  Make it "legal" for all to do.

Bulldog Leader, my kids must be different from the kids in Northern Kentucky.  I know we were able to keep 2 kids on our team this year just because they had a chance to go to state.  The amazing thing is that they stayed because they thought they had a chance to go to state and wound up realizing they really enjoyed wrestling.  If only we could have got these kids to come out for wrestling when they were younger, which is why stronger grade school and middle school involvement is key and a necessity if we want to get better in this state.

The 32 man bracket is fine.  If it offends the old school 'purists'  so what.  This is for the kids.  If they can go home and say they made it to state, then good for them.  It doesn't change the fact that the good kids will come out on top, it just gives them an extra match.  If it screws up the draws, then so what as well, ultimately you have to beat the best to be the best.  If the 32 man bracket grows interest, and makes some kids feel better about the grueling wrestling season, then it's working just fine.

You are correct.  It is for the kids.  So lets teach them to work hard for accomplishments.  The state tournament is suppose to mean something, not just another tournament.  

The best kids always come out on top.  The draws I could care less about.  There is nothing we can do to make it perfect.  

I'm not sure it is growing interest, I hear parents complaining all the time about the 3 day tournament.  Have you noticed the lack of interest in the last few years at the state tourney?, especially Thursday.  All the 32 man bracket did was appease the old Lexington frankfort region.  Who said they had kids not qualifying who should qualify.  

Those kids that don't make it to the state tournament more often quit if it is not their 1st year, because they realize that it is very easy to make it to the state tourney, and they did not qualify.

I am looking out for the best interest for the kids.  Its more than just sports its about life.  Teach them there are dissapointments in life. Teach them you must work hard to get what you want, not just show up and put your time in.

I know there are two camps on this issue and neither will convince the other.  I just hope that the time of coddling these kids will end soon.

Kids criticizing others about accomplishment in a sport they dont have balls to participate in are not valid, I hope you tell them to put up or shut up.

Is it a great accomplishment to qualify for state, I say thats an individual issue, much greater accomplishment for some than others. Sure it was more difficult to qualify with only 16 man brackets but thats not a big issue to the kids on the mat today, only the ex wrestlers looking back on their glory days.

I see no problem with the 32 man bracket, if it keeps more kids interested in the sport that is great, that will help the sport grow in notoriety in this area, but I do agree that some kids probably don't belong, but if the sport gets stronger because of increased participation it can't doing anything but make the level of competion at state get better. 

I see no problem with the 32 man bracket, if it keeps more kids interested in the sport that is great,

Are you kidding man?  I go to the state and wrestle one time on Thur. and go back to my room and sit.  That is crazy.  I remember seeing my uncle wrestle and seeing him wrestle 2-3 times on Friday and finish on Sat. Everyone was crazy on both days, people yelling and excited. 

Now Thursday is like going to your sisters b'day party.  Eveyone standing around waiting for it to get over. 

One of the big reasons my friends don't wrestle is because they say it takes to long.  You spend all day in a gym, and leave at midnight.  I can't get anyone but my parents to watch because of this.  I've even had a friend come to practice every day, wrestle on the weekdays but not on the long trips or long tourneys on the weekends.

What do you tell your friends and family about the state tourney?  They don't want to be there the entire day waiting for you to wrestle.  I tell them not to come on thurs., and usually wait till Sat. because if I don't make it to Sat. they don't need to see me. 

Fan support is getting smaller all the time because of the long tourneys.  The 3 day state tournament is not helping things.

I felt the state tournament (which was well run) is way to easy of a tournament.

Going to a 16 man bracket will not make the tournament any "easier". It will only seem easier. Theoretically those same 16 men will be in the second round. Reducing the number of wrestlers is only a quick way of fixing the problem and doesn't address the real issue that our state is weak compared to other states.

The problem is not that there are too many kids. The problems with the 32 man bracket are that:

• The tournament is 3 days long
  
• There are only 4 mats
  
• Some regions are weaker than others
  
• Some people feel that some kids don't deserve to be there
  
• It appears that the tournament is "weaker"

How to solve this problem:

• Find a new location with larger gym space
  
• Add more mats and reduce the tournament to 2 days
  
• Get more kids involved in the sport at a younger age
  
• Allow kids to grow in the sport to become more competitive
  
• **Realign the regions so that they are more equal
  

**Realigning the regions is still a quick way of solving a "this region is weaker than this region" arguement. This would probably require realignment every 3-4 years.

The goal of a state tournament is to have the state tournament as fair and competitive as possible.

The goal of our sport in this state specifically is to increase athlete participation and competitiveness in this sport.

Going to a 16 man bracket will not make the tournament any "easier". It will only seem easier. Theoretically those same 16 men will be in the second round. Reducing the number of wrestlers is only a quick way of fixing the problem and doesn't address the real issue that our state is weak compared to other states.

The problem is not that there are too many kids. The problems with the 32 man bracket are that:

• The tournament is 3 days long
  
• There are only 4 mats
  
• Some regions are weaker than others
  
• Some people feel that some kids don't deserve to be there
  
• It appears that the tournament is "weaker"

How to solve this problem:

• Find a new location with larger gym space
  
• Add more mats and reduce the tournament to 2 days
  
• Get more kids involved in the sport at a younger age
  
• Allow kids to grow in the sport to become more competitive
  
• **Realign the regions so that they are more equal
  

**Realigning the regions is still a quick way of solving a "this region is weaker than this region" arguement. This would probably require realignment every 3-4 years.

The goal of a state tournament is to have the state tournament as fair and competitive as possible.

The goal of our sport in this state specifically is to increase athlete participation and competitiveness in this sport.

The number of mats is the real killer. Choate was talkin' about how Indiana state was ran in 2 separate areas and had a rediculous number of mats. Most other states do that too. It's hard to believe that half the in-season tournies I go to have more mats than the state tourny which is the biggest one of the whole year.

does Indiana have a division system???

If not how did they decide who was at what location.

I think it would be cool to have one location for the championship rounds and the second location for the consolation rounds.  At least for the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

Mathound wow you are a genius I think you may be correct in that its not the 32 man bracket that is the problem, but the 3 days.  hey mr Thacket are you listening?? you can have your cake and eat it to. all you need to do is move the tourn. and add more mats. Wow such a simple solution, to bad someone didn't think about this earlier.  :-o

I think that would make for a better tourny for both wrestlers and spectators alike.

There has been talk of taking the tournament to EKU campus which would hold 6 mats.  Problem there is lack of hotels, restaurants and they weren't going to give the arena to KHSAA free like Frankfort does.  Another problem would be people to run the tournament, Franklin County hs does it now and does a great job with very little (or no) recognition and thanks.  Who would do it then, as there is no hs school in Richmond that would be able to support it.  I believe about 3 years ago it was a blink away from switching, but one thing kept it at Frankfort.  I think this would be the biggest challenge to the state tournament that we would come across anywhere. 

As far as realigning the regions, it would be hard to do it much different as you have some schools that are just grouped together because they are close....if  you spread those regions out than you create a problem with being able to wrestle each other without staying overnight.  There has always been some regions that are tougher than others, and I don't see anyway to really stop it as you will always have some teams that are up and down some years.  That's just the way sports (and life) are.