Has anyone heard about proposal 2 being contested by the Nonpublic Schools Commission?  It was passed by KHSAA and also the Kentucky Board of Education.  The only part I don't like about it is if someone is in private school and they decide not to go to a private high school they have to sit out a year for athletics.  That hurts the individuals who do not want to pay $15,000 a year for high school education but didn't mind the $5000 cost of grade school.  I have a feeling it will end up being okayed by the governor. 

Has anyone heard about proposal 2 being contested by the Nonpublic Schools Commission?  It was passed by KHSAA and also the Kentucky Board of Education.  The only part I don't like about it is if someone is in private school and they decide not to go to a private high school they have to sit out a year for athletics.  That hurts the individuals who do not want to pay $15,000 a year for high school education but didn't mind the $5000 cost of grade school.  I have a feeling it will end up being okayed by the governor. 

haven't heard much about it, can you post a link to it? 

actually it wont effect the kids coming from a private grade school going to a public high school. It only effects those coming from public school going to a private high school. And im not sure but i think u only have to sit out of varisty

It will affect any kid who decides to go to a school other than the one that is going to their feeder school.  They are going to set up feeder schools for the private ones and if a kid decides to go public school it will affect them as well.  It would not get passed if it was a one way street!!!  You would lose one year of athletic eligibility, just like transferring from one public school to another now without moving your physical address. 

http://www.khsaa.org/annualmeeting/20062007/annualmeetingproposals20062007.pdf

there are no feeder schools in private schools unless it k-12. ur feeder school is ur home school. Its a run way street with all those khsaa rules. U can transfer from a private school to public school without sitting out a year I know a kid thats done it. He even transferred mid season and was still able to wrestle.

right before you could, but the proposal 2 is going to eliminate that.  That's the whole point of what I am talking about.  It creates feeder schools.....actually read the proposal it would be easier.  There were no feeder schools for private, that's why you couldnt engage in hs competition until you were in grade 9. 

i read through some of it, but it's a bit over my head.  if a student transfers schools, to a private school and lives outside that feeder area (30 miles), would they be eligible immediately?  or would they have to sit out 1 year?  or do you have to live in that school's district to ever compete for them.  For example, if i lived 40 miles from Cov Cath and wanted to go there, could i play sports for them after sitting out 1 year?  It seems to me that what this changes for people wanting to change schools is they will need to send their kid to a feeder school in the 7th or 8th grade, and they will be ineligible for 1 year. 

wrestler92 - could you please break it down for me?

They would have to sit out a year for any athletic competition.  That is one thing that is trying to be started, to send the kids to the feeder school in 7th or 8th grade so that they don't switch schools come 9th grade after competing for another school in the 7th and 8th grade athletic meets. 

This proposal may pass. But I doubt that it will. 

They will try to uphold the rule until someone takes the case to a courtroom.

No matter how you cut it, it is discrimination.  There is no way a parent can make a decision about where they want their child to go to high school until they get that age. 

By locking them into a school district at that age is ridiculous.  Many students need the help that the public schools offer while they are in middle school.  Many other parents can't afford to send their children to private school until they get to high school. 

Just to set the record straight I never attended a private school nor will any of my children attend a private school.  In my opinion public schools offer more than private schools.  But I do uphold their right to make a decision that they feel is correct for their child.

Sorry I'll step off of my soap box now.  :-D

It's already passed, but the Nonpublic school commission is trying to get the governor to look at it and declare it discriminatory.  If he doesn't do that then it will start with kids in the '08-'09 school year who enter the 6th grade.  I never went to private school, but had friends that did and my kids now do go to private school and there is a good chance they won't go for high school just because of the extreme cost of it by that point.  That is really the only reason I agree with the commission right now, I will say normally I don't agree with them because of my public school upbringing!!

Has anyone heard about proposal 2 being contested by the Nonpublic Schools Commission?  It was passed by KHSAA and also the Kentucky Board of Education.  The only part I don't like about it is if someone is in private school and they decide not to go to a private high school they have to sit out a year for athletics.  That hurts the individuals who do not want to pay $15,000 a year for high school education but didn't mind the $5000 cost of grade school.  I have a feeling it will end up being okayed by the governor. 

1st these are old proposals that were sent to the governing board last year.

KDE or whomever refused to pass any of these laws/proposals.

KHSAA was told to look at them again and come up with something different.  I believe that somethig different was the 6 class football system.  

2nd I spoke to Julion Thacket about this.  I was concerned because my son is in middle school and not in the same district I coach at.  I did not want him locked into that school district if he decided to wrestle for me when he gets into high school.  I was told that if one of these proposals would go into affect any student going into the middle school the next school year would be exempt from this proposal.  He also mentioned to me that he highly doubts that any of these will pass.

3rd The governer does not sign off on these bills.

This was the latest information that I found on this subject from another site.

The Administrative Regulation Review Subcommittee meeting will take place on Monday, July 9, 2007 at 10:00 a.m. in Room 154 of the Capitol Annex in Frankfort. If you are against Proposal 2, then you need to contact the 8 members of the subcommittee with the following message--

"Reject 702 KAR 7:065 (KHSAA Proposal 2) by finding it deficient because it is illegal, would result in protracted legal proceedings, would divert litigants from the education of children, and would unfairly penalize parents and children who make decisions on schools for faith-based reasons. Amend Proposal 2 by replacing its current language with a proposal known as Proposal 8 that calls for increased compliance and enforcement of existing KHSAA regulations."

The 8 members of the subcommittee are listed below along with the path to get to their e-mail links. Just click on the link next to their name and you will go right to their e-mail. If you agree, please send the above Bolded message to them. Also e-mail this information to all of your school community members, family, friends, acquaintances, co-workers, enemies, and anyone you can think of, asking them to contact the members of the subcommittee.

Sen. Dick Roeding [Co-Chair] ( http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Legislator/S011.htm )

Rep. Robert R. Damron [Co-Chair] ( http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Legislator/H039.htm )

Sen. Alice Forgy Kerr, ( http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Legislator/S012.htm )

Sen. Joey Pendleton ( http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Legislator/S003.htm )

Sen. Gary Tapp, ( http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Legislator/S020.htm )

Rep. Danny Ford ( http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Legislator/H080.htm )

Rep. Jimmie Lee, ( http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Legislator/H025.htm )

Rep. Ron Weston, ( http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Legislator/H037.htm )

In addition, as many people as possible need to be present at the meeting in Frankfort on July 9. Please encourage representatives from your communities to be present to show support. Many folks have been working very hard to get their concerns about KHSAA Proposal 2 across to the committee members, and a "full house" at the subcommittee hearing will send a message.

Summer schedules are very challenging. Please do everything you can to get this information out and encourage everyone to contact the subcommittee.

If you agree with proposal 2; then ignore this post.

Well I guess you kinda answered your own wrong response post with your second one.  These were sent this past year and are now in effect.  They were passed, as I already said by both KHSAA and KBE.  This is the option that they came up with after being told two years ago the proposals were not passed, the one where they wanted to split high school athletics into public and private school championships.  Any kid who does go into school this coming year is exempt from it as it takes affect starting the '08-'09 school year. 

The governor doesn't have to sign off on it, because it is passed, but the committee doesn't have the final say.  They do the work like any other committee does and then give a recomendation to the governor.  He doesn't have to go by their findings or suggestions and can do as he wishes.  It is up to him to determine if it is considered discriminatory and deficient in its writings. 

If it passes then the legal proceedings will start, just as busing just got shot down here in JCPS. 

1st these are old proposals that were sent to the governing board last year.

KDE or whomever refused to pass any of these laws/proposals.

KHSAA was told to look at them again and come up with something different.  I believe that somethig different was the 6 class football system.  

2nd I spoke to Julion Thacket about this.  I was concerned because my son is in middle school and not in the same district I coach at.  I did not want him locked into that school district if he decided to wrestle for me when he gets into high school.  I was told that if one of these proposals would go into affect any student going into the middle school the next school year would be exempt from this proposal.  He also mentioned to me that he highly doubts that any of these will pass.

3rd The governer does not sign off on these bills.

No matter how you cut it, it is discrimination.  There is no way a parent can make a decision about where they want their child to go to high school until they get that age. 

By locking them into a school district at that age is ridiculous.  Many students need the help that the public schools offer while they are in middle school.  Many other parents can't afford to send their children to private school until they get to high school. 

I'm not sure if this is discrimination or not as long as the rules are applied consistently amongst public schools & private schools.  How would this impact kids that legally move from 1 public school district to another?  Would this be applied consistenly with private & public schools?  For example, a kid that legally moves from 1 public school to another is instantly eligible - if the receiving school determines the student is academically eligible.  If someone was to move from outside of the private school's district into a new private school district, would they be instantly eligible? 

As long as it is applied consistently, to me this is not that big of a deal.  It seems like what the KHSAA is trying to address is preventing private schools from having an unfair competitive advantage because they can draw kids from anywhere in the state/country (Isaac Knable lived in Indiana, and was a 4 time Ky state champ).  This doesn't seem to be that big of a deal in wrestling yet.  But this has a huge impact on football and other sports. 

Either way you go, it's not fair to someone - it's not fair to the public schools to have to compete in a league for a championship with teams that play by their own set of rules (private schools having endless boundaries).  If this rule goes into effect, people who want to send their kid to a private school will have to sit out a year.  It seems like the best compromise would be to do just what the KHSAA is doing.  The worst thing to do would be to ignore the existing problem. 

There's my 2 cents worth.

Man, I must be a thread killer!  I thought this thread would blow up.

You are exactly right as to the purpose of why the proposal is brought up.  To prevent recruitment from happening.  However I think kids should be able to go from private grade school to public high school, it's really kinda common if you look at the number of kids in grade school versus those in high school for catholic schools.  If you move your actual address right now and with this proposal in effect you would be eligible for competition at the new school. 

     Your missing the big problem here.  How in the world can you say that a child is locked into a high school before he even attends the high school or for that matter is even old enough to attend that high school. 

     As for it not being fair for the public schools to compete against private schools who draw from a larger boundary area.  I don't see it.  Actually they have a smaller pool of people to draw upon.  Most of the people in these areas will never send their child to a private school  Either because of religious reasons transportation reasons or economical reasons.  Its no different than Danville competing against Ryle who has probably 3 times as many students. 

     I think what you need to do is put yourself in this situation.  What if you like the gradeschool and middle school your child will be attending.  The high school they must attend you don't like for whatever reason.  Be it academically or they don't offer the sport your child wants to play.  When you send your child to the high school that has what you want for your child your child must now sit out one year in the sport he/she wants to play.  This may not seem like a big deal to some, but what if this sport may be able to get him/her a scholarship to collage?  Do you think you can look that far in advance to make the correct decisions for your child?  You will have to do this before they start 7th grade. 

     I'm sorry to those that I may offend on this but this is a ridicules proposal.  We want people to start respecting the sports in KY, yet we start making more and more idiotic rules which other states laugh at.  I've spoken to people in Ohio and Florida about this and they just laugh and say why do you guys care about this?  If you guys would spend as much effort to improve your sports as you have on these proposals your sports would improve dramatically.  If you combine this with our rule about coaches not being able to coach out of season.............. :x :x :x

    OK my head is going to explode I'm so riled up about this.  :evil:

just saying if this was passed, what would happen to a kid that wanted to wrestle but was locked in to a school that did not have wrestling. 

     Your missing the big problem here.  How in the world can you say that a child is locked into a high school before he even attends the high school or for that matter is even old enough to attend that high school. 

That is the only sticky part of this proposal in my mind.  You are right, this part of it stinks.

     As for it not being fair for the public schools to compete against private schools who draw from a larger boundary area.  I don't see it.  Actually they have a smaller pool of people to draw upon.  Most of the people in these areas will never send their child to a private school  Either because of religious reasons transportation reasons or economical reasons.  Its no different than Danville competing against Ryle who has probably 3 times as many students. 

You must be blind not to see this.  Look at 3A & 4A football.  Yes, they have a smaller pool of people to draw from, but if that "draw" contains the top football talent in the state, then the number of kids doesn't matter.  I'm not accusing any schools of illegally recruiting....although it probably happens a little.  The fact is, because the private schools CAN take kids from anywhere...it is not hard for a group of kids to say "i want to win a football state championship, so i want to go to St. X, Highlands, Cov Cath, New Cath, or Trinity."  Can Boone County accept these kids?  Can Dixie?  No.  That's why the KHSAA & the public school coaches are doing something about this.  They proposed that the private schools have their own state championship...or own leagues...(i believe this is done to some degree in Ohio).  The private schools were completely opposed to this. 

     I think what you need to do is put yourself in this situation.  What if you like the gradeschool and middle school your child will be attending.  The high school they must attend you don't like for whatever reason.  Be it academically or they don't offer the sport your child wants to play.  When you send your child to the high school that has what you want for your child your child must now sit out one year in the sport he/she wants to play.  This may not seem like a big deal to some, but what if this sport may be able to get him/her a scholarship to collage?  Do you think you can look that far in advance to make the correct decisions for your child?  You will have to do this before they start 7th grade. 

You are right here.  That would stink.  However, it won't happen all that often...and it's only sitting out the first year.  For most of these kids, that would mean their freshman year.  Not exactly the most critical year.  Also, if you are ineligible, does that mean you can not practice?  Or just not compete?  Just curious.  Either way, i think this is a downside but it is worth it to have a fair competition.

     I'm sorry to those that I may offend on this but this is a ridicules proposal.  We want people to start respecting the sports in KY, yet we start making more and more idiotic rules which other states laugh at.  I've spoken to people in Ohio and Florida about this and they just laugh and say why do you guys care about this?  If you guys would spend as much effort to improve your sports as you have on these proposals your sports would improve dramatically.  If you combine this with our rule about coaches not being able to coach out of season.............. :x :x :x

    OK my head is going to explode I'm so riled up about this.  :evil:

Settle down Beavis.  :-D :-D  Don't get too riled up about this.  90% of the people who will be impacted by this are people who the rule is supposed to impact.  Kids transferring to private schools strictly for athletics.  This is meant to prevent illegal recruiting & stacking all-star teams.  This is the other part of the big problem that you are missing.  This rule stinks for legitimate kids who want to go to a private school....but not having this rule stinks for the public school kids who can't win a state championship because private schools can draw all the best athletes.

You must be blind not to see this.  Look at 3A & 4A football.  Yes, they have a smaller pool of people to draw from, but if that "draw" contains the top football talent in the state, then the number of kids doesn't matter. 

I don't think this does matter.  So if these people all decide to move to one subdivision and produce top notch football players, are you then going to restrict how many can go to a specific school?

Can Boone County accept these kids?  Can Dixie?  No.  That's why the KHSAA & the public school coaches are doing something about this. 

Yes they can except these kids, LOOK AT HIGHLANDS.

They proposed that the private schools have their own state championship...or own leagues...(i believe this is done to some degree in Ohio). 

Ohio does not do this, St. Ed wins the wrestling title almost every year.

In Ky wrestling would have what 5 schools in wrestling.  Ridiculous.

You are right here.  That would stink.  However, it won't happen all that often...and it's only sitting out the first year.  For most of these kids, that would mean their freshman year.  Not exactly the most critical year.  Also, if you are ineligible, does that mean you can not practice?  Or just not compete?  Just curious.  Either way, i think this is a downside but it is worth it to have a fair competition.

NOT that critical?? That is contradictory to why gradeschool and middle school wrestling is becoming important.  Have you ever seen someone that sits out 1 year. Most never return to their competitive level.

Settle down Beavis.   :-D :-D  Don't get too riled up about this.  90% of the people who will be impacted by this are people who the rule is supposed to impact.  Kids transferring to private schools strictly for athletics.  This is meant to prevent illegal recruiting & stacking all-star teams.  This is the other part of the big problem that you are missing.  This rule stinks for legitimate kids who want to go to a private school....but not having this rule stinks for the public school kids who can't win a state championship because private schools can draw all the best athletes.

If they just tightened up on the already existing rules that KHSAA has in place there would be no need for this.

Its the responsibility of the school to develop a tradition at their school so that kids won't leave to go to other schools. Woodford seems to be able to do this in wrestling.  Highlands seems to be able to do this in Football, as does Beachwood. 

Life is not fair.  Isn't this what we teach our children.  You overcome the obstacles in front of you so that you can succeed.

Highlands and Beechwood are independent schools and CAN take kids that live outside of their school district.  Restrict them to kids within their district and Highlands doesn't have a Jared Lorenzen go there (he lived in Scot's district).  In fact, in the past Highlands has had kids play for their team that lived in Ohio. 

As far as the kids moving to a district, that's fine.  No one would suggest that if you move you should sit out a year. 

Ohio has Catholic leagues.  The GCL...and others throughout the state.  They do enter the same state tournament as public schools...that is true.  Is it fair, NOT EVEN CLOSE!  Lakewood St. Ed's has had kids attending their school from Michigan!!  That's B.S.!  Speaking of Ohio though, the archdiocese of Cincinnati has made rules in the GCL to prevent recruiting.  In the 70's and 80's Moeller used to dominate in football.  Moeller used to pull guys from all over the area.  The archdiocese stepped in and put rules in place similar to what proposal 2 is proposing.  Now you see much more balance in football in the GCL.  Elder has become a power. 

As far as it being ridiculous to have 5 private schools in their own state tournament.  I think proposal 2 is a compromise so that it doesn't come to that. 

I agree life is not always fair, and there is sometimes that it will never be fair...but if you CAN make things fair, it's a cop out not to at least try.  Just remember, there would not be a proposal 2 if private & independent schools had not taken advantage of this over the years.

Independant schools ARE public schools and have the same rules as a county school.  What about Shotwell, he lives in Mason Co. and goes to Campbell Co.  Any students can go to any high school they wish as long as the school in the district they live in releases them and the money atteched to them.  Even then the school can take the student and not recieve the state money for them.

The private schools did not take advantage.  It is not as if they are saying "Hey your a good running back come to our school and we will not make you pay tuition".

Everything is equal if the KHSAA rules are followed as they are written.  The problem is that they are not being followed and when they are broken the punishments are not inforced.  Look at Highland 2 or 3 years ago thier official record was 2-10 (or something like that) because of the ineligable kid they had on the team.  They were able to keep the state title. But in Ohio when Colrain (I believe it was Colrain) had an ineligable kid they were not even alound to compete in the state finals.  If the KHSAA would just crack down on the violators everything would be fair. 

Once again here we go teaching our children if you can't beat them, change the rules so that they can't beat you. 

Hey how about we change the rules to say that a wrestler can only attend 1 wrestling camp each summer because it is unfair for those that can't afford wrestling camps.  Or maybe we say that those schools with more money to spend on thier sports such as a weight room and such have to get 12 yards for a 1st down because they have a much better weight room than lower income schools.  (yes this is sarcasm)

Hey why don't we give people who don't work money and food so that they can be like everyone else.  OH wait a minute we already do this.  Ah yeah that is why my taxes are so high.  :roll:

Ok, ok. First of all, Highlands in 2004 had a kid that transfered in from Cov Cath named Mike Mitchell, who was found ineligible

a week or so before the state championship game, which Highlands went on to win the state title without him, just to clear that up.

And I'm pretty sure Colerain's ineligible situation was way more severe. And about Shotwell... I believe, according to Cam Co, and

maybe even Boone Co, if you get approved by the board of ed of the county there can be acceptions of out of district kids if you

have a legit excuse (Mason doesnt have a wrestling team) and if you provide your own ride every day to school. And about private

schools being the nice guys and would never take advantage of there infinite possibilities of recruitment, they do. And independent

schools are the same as public schools, but I believe there learning/testing is different? And im not even going to say anything about

your last two paragraphs because they are completely irrelevant.

Independant schools ARE public schools and have the same rules as a county school.  What about Shotwell, he lives in Mason Co. and goes to Campbell Co.  Any students can go to any high school they wish as long as the school in the district they live in releases them and the money atteched to them.  Even then the school can take the student and not recieve the state money for them.

The private schools did not take advantage.  It is not as if they are saying "Hey your a good running back come to our school and we will not make you pay tuition".

Everything is equal if the KHSAA rules are followed as they are written.  The problem is that they are not being followed and when they are broken the punishments are not inforced.  Look at Highland 2 or 3 years ago thier official record was 2-10 (or something like that) because of the ineligable kid they had on the team.  They were able to keep the state title. But in Ohio when Colrain (I believe it was Colrain) had an ineligable kid they were not even alound to compete in the state finals.  If the KHSAA would just crack down on the violators everything would be fair. 

Once again here we go teaching our children if you can't beat them, change the rules so that they can't beat you. 

Hey how about we change the rules to say that a wrestler can only attend 1 wrestling camp each summer because it is unfair for those that can't afford wrestling camps.  Or maybe we say that those schools with more money to spend on thier sports such as a weight room and such have to get 12 yards for a 1st down because they have a much better weight room than lower income schools.   (yes this is sarcasm)

Hey why don't we give people who don't work money and food so that they can be like everyone else.  OH wait a minute we already do this.  Ah yeah that is why my taxes are so high.  :roll:

I was not going to bring the kids name into it. But the Highlands kids was ruled ineligable a week before the state title.  They were in court the whole season.  Even if they won withough him they MAY not have gotten there without him. 

Any school can exept a student from elswhere no matter what the situation.  As long as the Board OK's it.

Take my word for it Independant schools don't test or learn any different.  I know first hand.

The last paragraph is not irrelevant because they are other ways to try and even the field, which others may try next. 

(And no I did not attend a private school.  LOL nor am I Catholic.  you don't want to know where I stand on that issue.)  I am however an American and believe in the freedom of the individual.

Then what makes and Independent school, Independent?

Independant schools ARE public schools and have the same rules as a county school.  What about Shotwell, he lives in Mason Co. and goes to Campbell Co.  Any students can go to any high school they wish as long as the school in the district they live in releases them and the money atteched to them.

This is true, but don't you lose a year of eligibility doing this?  Not sure what the rules were when Shotwell transferred to CC, but under the current rules you would be ineligible for 1 year if you did this unless you physically moved.  It probably didn't apply to Shotwell because he must have transferred as a 6th grader or 7th grader.  He's been there at least that long. 

You are right about indepdendent schools and that public schools CAN take kids from outside of their district - good points.  But school disctricts rarely release funds to the new school district from what i understand.  But even so...without a legal move, under the current khsaa rules, they lose a year of eligibility...correct?  It seems to me that the KHSAA is just trying to make both private and public play by the same rules.  I applaud them for trying.

I think you and i will just have to agree to disagree on this issue.  I can't understand how you can have the attitude of "i know it's unfair, and because life is unfair, let's not do anything about it."  That makes no sense to me....but maybe it does to you.  To continue your points about limiting the # of camps, etc.  Let's get rid of weight classes.  Why should we group wrestlers into weight groups?  Because it makes it fair.

Then what makes and Independent school, Independent?

Its just a title they choose to use.  They are not part of the county schools, which is the majority of the schools in Ky.  Independant means they are independant of the larger school district in thier county.  HIghlands is in Campbell co., but independant of Campbell Co. schools.

Beechwood is in Kenton Co., but independant of Kenton Co. schools.

Hopkinsville is in Christian Co., but independant of Christian Co. schools.

ect. ect. (Danville-Boyle co.)

This is true, but don't you lose a year of eligibility doing this?  Not sure what the rules were when Shotwell transferred to CC, but under the current rules you would be ineligible for 1 year if you did this unless you physically moved.  It probably didn't apply to Shotwell because he must have transferred as a 6th grader or 7th grader.  He's been there at least that long. 

You are right about independent schools and that public schools CAN take kids from outside of their district - good points.  But school districts rarely release funds to the new school district from what i understand.  But even so...without a legal move, under the current khsaa rules, they lose a year of eligibility...correct?  It seems to me that the KHSAA is just trying to make both private and public play by the same rules.  I applaud them for trying.

I think you and i will just have to agree to disagree on this issue.  I can't understand how you can have the attitude of "i know it's unfair, and because life is unfair, let's not do anything about it."  That makes no sense to me....but maybe it does to you.  To continue your points about limiting the # of camps, etc.  Let's get rid of weight classes.  Why should we group wrestlers into weight groups?  Because it makes it fair.

The current rule. (0r last years rule) was that you were locked into the school if you played varsity sports for that school, as a high school student.  8th graders can play for any sport and switch schools their 9th grade year.

I was thinking the same thing along the lines we will have to agree to disagree and that I can't believe you think this is remotely fair for the majority.  OH WELL. 

My point about the camps and such was to point out how ridicules it can get.

No matter what the rules are they will never be fair to a certain group of individuals....or so they think.  But it just doesn't make sense to change the rule to hurt some other kids.  In jefferson county at least it all might change anyway with busing.  But the catholic schools here have been (many people aren't going to agree) illegally recruiting for years but noone really wants to investigate it or find out for sure.  The catholic school groups here are always nice and "cooperative"  but they rake in a lot of money for the athletics.  My in-laws all went to catholic school and i know they recruited back when they went to High School....they told me.  and I have heard it for recent years as well, but noone will really say on record. 

No matter what the rules are they will never be fair to a certain group of individuals....or so they think.  But it just doesn't make sense to change the rule to hurt some other kids.  In jefferson county at least it all might change anyway with busing.  But the catholic schools here have been (many people aren't going to agree) illegally recruiting for years but noone really wants to investigate it or find out for sure.  The catholic school groups here are always nice and "cooperative"  but they rake in a lot of money for the athletics.  My in-laws all went to catholic school and i know they recruited back when they went to High School....they told me.  and I have heard it for recent years as well, but noone will really say on record. 

Unless you want to clarify "illegally recruiting", I won't dignify that absurdity with a response. I just assume you say thank you to all of us who chose not to add to the burdens of public education with a greater population and continue to support you with our tax dollars.

All schools recruit regardless of whether they are private or public.  You can't just wait and hope for the good athletes to fall in your lap.  Some schools are better at it than others.  I guess it is just a question as to what people's perception of "illegal recruiting" is.  Now I know some people say the Catholic / Private schools "cheat", but I do not see it that way.  I know plenty of kids who don't live in their district and go to other public schools and I know it is not for "busing" purposes.  Case in point, & I will have to limit this to football because it is the examples I know, Tony Driver played for Louisville Male & later for Notre Dame and he lived in Ft. Knox.  Karry Pappas played for Trinity on a couple of their state championship teams with Brian Brohm and he lived in New Albany Indiana.  One of those schools is consider private and one, although traditional, is considered public.  I don't like the fact of hurting the kids with a year off for transfering school systems without physically moving, at least not the younger kids.  I could see this for kids who are sophomores or up, but you don't tend to see many kids go from public to private schools after their sophomore year.  It tends to be the other way around, so the public schools still get hurt a little.  However, there will be ways around this just like everything else.  Public schools who tend to place at least some emphasis on their athletics tend to still get good athletes just like the private schools do.  I can't blame a kid for wanting to get a good education and play athletics for a school who strongly supports their athletic program or programs and it does not matter to me whether that is at a public or private school.  There are plenty of good public schools who can compete with private schools.  Ask Trinity and St. X if they have an unfair advantage competing with Fern Creek, Eastern and Seneca year in and year out.

A friend of mine used to coach football at Covington Catholic from the early 80's to early 90's.  He's now a head coach out of state.  I teased him one time saying that they only won their state championships in that time period because they recruited all the best players in the N. Ky area.  He said with an absolute straight face..."of course we did, that's how catholic schools have to make sure they have their registration up".  He informed me that it is not illegal to recruit students.  Private schools always have to do this.  They were just not allowed to specifically use sports as a selling point.  Such as "hey, if you come to Cov Cath, you'll be our starting QB".  But they did this anyway.  I can't say they still do, but this guy said without a doubt coaches did that.  The problem is, it's so easy to get away with this, and to bend these rules, it's virtually impossible to prevent.  To me the KHSAA with proposal 2, is attempting to address a problem.  Everyone on here is concerned about the kid who is going to be hurt by proposal 2 because he has to sit out his freshman year because he chose to transfer to a private school or whatever.  What about the kid that has played pee wee football from the 1st grade to the 12th grade in a public school system and that school has little to no chance of winning a team title because he will face a private school team that is essentially an all-star team in the playoffs?  Isn't that kid hurt as well?  The KHSAA is trying to ensure fair competition.  I say good for them. 

tiltfor3 - would having school boosters/alumni/coaches coaching in a pee wee football league, suggesting to parents and players that they ought to go to (take your pick, in N. Ky it would be Beechwood, Cov Cath, New Cath, or Highlands)....would suggesting to them that "if you want to play college ball, you really ought to consider going to Highlands"  Would you consider that illegal recruiting?  The KHSAA would.  And they should.  But can they prove that conversation ever took place?  No.  Unless we have kids wearing wire taps and stuff.  Maybe that's what it will come to some day.  This type of stuff has been going on for years and nothing has been done about it.

To me this is pretty simple, there is a proposal 2 out there because there has been problems over the years with illegal recruiting.  Maybe this is overkill, but it's an attempt at addressing a known problem with recruiting. 

Tilt for 3....I won't bother clarifying "illegal recruiting" for you as there is nothing you can do or would even want to do which is obvious from your lack of a response.  And it's good that you can afford to send your kids to catholic school as well as I do mine even though I don't like how they handle many situations.  But your dollars don't support me for anything so you can hang onto that sentence for another time or person.  I have said my peace to those who need to hear about it  at KHSAA and so have others so all we can do is let them take it from there and not bother with it here.  And since you did dignify it with a rsponse, was there anything else to add?

What about the kid that has played pee wee football from the 1st grade to the 12th grade in a public school system and that school has little to no chance of winning a team title because he will face a private school team that is essentially an all-star team in the playoffs?  Isn't that kid hurt as well? 

Sorry but this is the root of the problem as I see it. 

No this kid is not hurt as well.  He still gets to compete.  Playing sports is not about winning.  How is this kid hurt? Just because he never gets to hold a state championship trophy?  This is shallow.  I tell JR. Who cares what school he goes to, who cares if he has a better coach, who cares how long he has been competing.  Go out there and take it to him.  If you loose and you did everything you can to win, feel good about what you accomplished.  This is where good character is built, not winning state titles.  Also, if he is a good player he can still get a possible scolarship in collage.  Those kids that are that good and participate on teams that are not contenders still are picked up by collages.

Now you are going to tell a kid you can't compete in your sport (AT ANY LEVEL) because your parents did not have enough money to send you to a private school when you were in the 7th and 8th grade.  Even though you and your parents worked hard to get the money needed so that you can go to the high school your parents and family graduated from. 

AHHHH this is why wrestling is such a great sport.  We don't have to worry about this.  It's an individual sport.  The wrestler would have won state if he is that good no matter where he is.  He gets to make his own future and not depend on a team. 

Sorry but this is the root of the problem as I see it. 

No this kid is not hurt as well.  He still gets to compete.  Playing sports is not about winning.  How is this kid hurt? Just because he never gets to hold a state championship trophy?  This is shallow.  I tell JR. Who cares what school he goes to, who cares if he has a better coach, who cares how long he has been competing.  Go out there and take it to him.  If you loose and you did everything you can to win, feel good about what you accomplished.  This is where good character is built, not winning state titles.  Also, if he is a good player he can still get a possible scolarship in collage.  Those kids that are that good and participate on teams that are not contenders still are picked up by collages.

Now you are going to tell a kid you can't compete in your sport (AT ANY LEVEL) because your parents did not have enough money to send you to a private school when you were in the 7th and 8th grade.  Even though you and your parents worked hard to get the money needed so that you can go to the high school your parents and family graduated from. 

AHHHH this is why wrestling is such a great sport.  We don't have to worry about this.  It's an individual sport.  The wrestler would have won state if he is that good no matter where he is.  He gets to make his own future and not depend on a team. 

How you live and grow up is most influenced by your surroundings. If you are on a team that has absolutely no future and has always been mediocre or not too good at a sport, that doesn't exactly mean you will be mediocre or bad, but you would be a hell of a lot better being surrounded by champions. If you want your son to be able to achieve any goals he wants, and give him the opportunity to achieve his max potential, "that dominating private school" is the place to be. "That private school" will be more consistent, and every ONCE in a while, a team will sneak up and upset those powerhouse private schools in the finals. And how could you say sports aren't about winning at all? "If a sport isnt about winning, then why is there a scoreboard in every gym in the country. " - Adolph Rupp. If you aren't in a sport to win, then you better leave that sport. Its not all about winning, but it is after you have learned your mistakes from losing. Winning is fun, is it not? And pioneer is right, it isn't fair. A kid that has worked his butt off at a crappy school that doesn't know how to win but is still dedicated, ends up having his dreams of a state title crushed by a team that is pretty much artificial. You can have that "take it to 'em" attitude, and yeah your kid will have fun, but when he is losing because of his bad coach, and isn't getting looked at by college recruits, because of his bad coach, thats when you will be like wow... its all my fault that I didn't put my son in a better environment. Alright volume 2 of this novel comes out next year, see ya guys.

Lowsingle you confuse trying to win with winning.  No one said you don't try to win.  But HIGHSCHOOL coaches should be more worried about building character than doing whatever they need to do to win. 

Why do you think that kid who is doing drugs is no longer on the team even though he is the best one on the team.  Why do you think that kid that who is failing classes is not wrestling until he gets his grades up?

High school coaches coach because they love the sport and want to spread that joy to anyone they can.  Look at almost any team.  The kid that can't chew gum and walk at the same time is the kid the coach feels good about when he wins his first match.  This kid is not cut from the team, he is nurtured until he succeeds.  Who do you think enjoyed their state title more last year.  Sullivan who was suppose to win or Nickle the one who was not suppose to win? 

If a kid does not earn a scholarship because of a bad coach, then what are you saying? The better coaches are at the private schools?  If this is true then all the good kids should be on one team so those that should get the scholarships get those scholarships because they will improve with the better coach. Should the parents be looking for the best coaches they can for their kids?  This is exactly what KHSAA is trying to avoid.  (no I don't believe that privates have better coaches)

What is unfair are the illegal recruitment that is going on.  The only thing that will change is that they will be recruiting at a younger age.  What needs to be done is tighten up on the rules.  when a school breaks the rule drop the hammer on them.  Don't slap them on the wrist.  Example, I've used this before.  Highlands should have lost their football title, and been suspended from post season play for at least a year when they had the illegal player.  Harsh??? Darn right, but I bet they will check harder the next time they get a transfer student.  This is what needs to be done. 

I agree with grappler at this point.....wrestling is individual way more than other sports (baseball, basketball, football).  St. X won a state title a few years back and had no individual state champs.  There are other schools that don't have near the same qualitly team top to bottom and have individual champions,  Joe Powers, Southern....Kannane Hampton, J-town....and I know there are tons of others.  I would say not every kid knows, but a good majority of them are pretty sure what high school they will be going to by the time they are in the seventh grade.  I knew because if I went to another school than my home one my parents wouldn't let me play sports because of the additional travel time.  Many go where their friends go.

I'm just glad that I won't have to make that type of decision next year.

With my son going into the 7th grade next year at Campbell Co., he will not be attending the school district that I teach/coach at. 

But if he wants to wrestle for me when he gets to High School he will be able to transfer because he will be grandfathered in.

What is unfair are the illegal recruitment that is going on.  The only thing that will change is that they will be recruiting at a younger age.  What needs to be done is tighten up on the rules.  when a school breaks the rule drop the hammer on them.  Don't slap them on the wrist.  Example, I've used this before.  Highlands should have lost their football title, and been suspended from post season play for at least a year when they had the illegal player.  Harsh??? Darn right, but I bet they will check harder the next time they get a transfer student.  This is what needs to be done. 

Finally we agree on something!!  :-D :-D

I don't think we ever disagreed that there is a problem. Only on how to solve the problem.

W-92, why you getting your panties all in a wad? Apparently, unless you're an illegal alien, your tax dollars are doing the same as mine in supporting public education. I believe every American is entitled to the best education possible. I also respect the diversity of America relative to religion in schools. Thankfully, there are places that address the mind, body, and spirit.

What got my undergarment bunched up was, "illegal". To most, that equates to inducements. That is what is absurd. I've been in wrestling 40 years and you can believe me, inducements are very difficult to come by at any level in our sport.

Recently, the Supreme Court addressed that high school coaches are not covered under free speech regarding athletics.(Brentwood Academy,TN) So, I guess that would now be illegal. However, I think parents, alumni and booster can still exercise free speech. Personally, the area is too gray for me.

Nope, I didnt say the better coach was at the private schools, even though they probably are because they most likely get paid more. But the scenario I was using was if you were going to a crappy public school. And no, theres no way Highlands should of go there title took away, it all depeneds on how bad the crime was. It was a stupid little thing, that whoever accused him, was just being picky. And btw - you said playing sports are not about winning. Enough said.

Lowsingle you confuse trying to win with winning.  No one said you don't try to win.  But HIGHSCHOOL coaches should be more worried about building character than doing whatever they need to do to win. 

Why do you think that kid who is doing drugs is no longer on the team even though he is the best one on the team.  Why do you think that kid that who is failing classes is not wrestling until he gets his grades up?

High school coaches coach because they love the sport and want to spread that joy to anyone they can.  Look at almost any team.  The kid that can't chew gum and walk at the same time is the kid the coach feels good about when he wins his first match.  This kid is not cut from the team, he is nurtured until he succeeds.  Who do you think enjoyed their state title more last year.  Sullivan who was suppose to win or Nickle the one who was not suppose to win? 

If a kid does not earn a scholarship because of a bad coach, then what are you saying? The better coaches are at the private schools?  If this is true then all the good kids should be on one team so those that should get the scholarships get those scholarships because they will improve with the better coach. Should the parents be looking for the best coaches they can for their kids?  This is exactly what KHSAA is trying to avoid.  (no I don't believe that privates have better coaches)

What is unfair are the illegal recruitment that is going on.  The only thing that will change is that they will be recruiting at a younger age.  What needs to be done is tighten up on the rules.  when a school breaks the rule drop the hammer on them.  Don't slap them on the wrist.  Example, I've used this before.  Highlands should have lost their football title, and been suspended from post season play for at least a year when they had the illegal player.  Harsh??? Darn right, but I bet they will check harder the next time they get a transfer student.  This is what needs to be done. 

Once again I saw this question on another blog and thought it was a good question to put out there.

What if Prop 2 does go into effect over the next few years.

What will the measure of 'success' or 'failure' be? How can anyone tell it is 'working'? What objective measure can be used?

Can we use participation numbers as a measure? If participation is a stated of goal of KHSAA that should be one of the measures. Will KHSAA track the participation levels of incoming Freshmen? Do they care?

Do we use 'Championships' won by private/public? Is there a target that when reached indicates Prop 2 'worked'? Is the objective goal to reduce the the number of Championships won by private and increas the number of championships won by public schools? Is this the measure of success?

Will the impact on 'Prop 2 kids' be measured and tracked? Will there be an effort to determine if these kids perform equal or better in academics after being forced to sit out a year from ALL SPORTS at ALL LEVELS by KHSAA, the KBE and the Kentucky State Legislator? Will any of the organizations accept the conquences if Prop 2 leads to a lost generation of Kentucky youth?

"Nope, I didnt say the better coach was at the private schools, even though they probably are because they most likely get paid more. "

Lowsingle, I'll be the first to promise you that Catholic school coaches due not make as much as public school.

I can't speak for other types of "private" schools.

Lowsingle, I'll be the first to promise you that Catholic school coaches due not make as much as public school.

I can't speak for other types of "private" schools.

:-D :-D  I was wondering how long it would take for that reply.  I have always heard that Catholic schools do not typically pay higher salaries than public schools.

:-D :-D  I was wondering how long it would take for that reply.  I have always heard that Catholic schools do not typically pay higher salaries than public schools.

And from my experience other private schools don't pay as well either.  That usually holds true for coaches and teachers at private schools.

Yeah, I 2nd that Ranger.  My wife is a teacher at a public school.  She applied for a job at a private school and was offered the position, but turned it down because it paid her $10K less than her current teaching position at the public school.

Touche, touche. But that was beside the point.

Lowsingle said:

"Touche, touche. But that was beside the point."

I'm only clarifying, there are enough things on here that are muddled up.