Since this was kind of talked about on another thread I decided to start it's own tread.

Who are the better officials and why.

Best to stay away from the topic, IMO.  Not sure it will really be productive.

Best to stay away from the topic, IMO.  Not sure it will really be productive.

Why?  We are pointing out why we think some officials stand out from a positive perspective.  I'm sure some will disagree with observations, but I think it will give fans and other officials some ideas about watching certain guys and what they do well.

Best in my opinion is Barnett.  All is his calls are very consistent, and he doesnt let any coaches persuade him.  He likes to see constant action and will hit you for stalling very quickly.

Best in my opinion is Barnett.  All is his calls are very consistent, and he doesnt let any coaches persuade him.  He likes to see constant action and will hit you for stalling very quickly.

CONCUR :wink:

A few issues really bother me about KY officiating. On a whole, KY reffs do a poor job on calling takedowns/reversals from scramble positions. If you go to Ohio or PA, a takedown is called when the wrestler hooks a foot and has his hands behind the armpits of the other wrestler. When our kids wrestle out of state they are amazed at how fast take downs are called.

Another problem is the inconsistency with the out of bounds calls. Some reffs call out of bounds when a wrestlers foot graces the out of bounds line, others call takedowns when  a wrestler has 2 toes in bounds. I think the reffs that are unwilling to change need to take into account the fact that college officials call 2 feet in a takedown, reffs in other states and at national tournaments consistently call 2 feet in a takedown. It is unfair to kids who want to wrestle on a higher level to not look at how the rest of the country is doing things.

The last thing that really bothers me is how slowly near fall points are awarded. When wrestlers are working more advanced techniques (especially tilts) I feel like many kids aren

Ranger, exhawk proved my point where this shouldn't go.  However, I agree with those who mentioned Barnett.  It's sad that no other names are mentioned.

A good referee remembers that fans are there to see good, fair wrestling...not the referee.  A good ref calls a pin firmly, confidently without emotion.  A good referee gets down to the mat quickly on a takedown to look for the pin.  A good referee actually watches the match the entire time.

Anywhere else you tilt someone(besides KY), it's a quick 1-2, and two backs, none of this 1 M-I-S-S-I-S-S-I-P-P-I

Grappler, you make a great point.  Most sports have a referee evaluation and review process that helps provide independent review and evaluation of a referee's performance from time to time.  I know this means more cost for a tournament but it would be nice to have this process to keep referee's on their toes.

Ex hawk, firmed it nicely.  There is probably good reason why I have never seen an official from KY at any national or national caliper tournament.  Like Hawk, I have spent a great deal of time at both HS and college tournaments.  One thing he pointed out that I didn't elaborate was the back points.  I did go to the Ironman the last two years, a lot of TILTS. 

Neely would sit on the edge of the mat when he was officiating as well.  Just kidding.  However, he was the king of cautions.  Of all the states covered, I have never, NEVER seen a kid cautioned out of a match, except KY.

Barnett seems most consistent, although the sermons he gives kids are a bit long winded.

I am sure I could come up with a long list of things, as we all could both good and bad.  Here is my point..

have the officials spend some time at a national tournament such as the Beast, Ironman, HS Nationals, NCAA officialsl clinics.  Of course, Julian would cover this expense.  It would be worth it.

Ranger, exhawk proved my point where this shouldn't go.  However, I agree with those who mentioned Barnett.  It's sad that no other names are mentioned.

A good referee remembers that fans are there to see good, fair wrestling...not the referee.  A good ref calls a pin firmly, confidently without emotion.  A good referee gets down to the mat quickly on a takedown to look for the pin.  A good referee actually watches the match the entire time.

We have a few other good referee's most people always bring up Barnett because they have the most respect for him.

I recall matches at state (Barnett) I may not agree with him on a call, but again I was probably wrong.

Old School - disagreement with the best ref doesn't mean you are wrong; he will make his fair share of mistakes as well.  But Barnett is one of the most consistent and is not affected by the coach in the corner.

wrestlingfanatic - okay, you were right.  Let's not turn this into a forum to tell all that is wrong with officials in KY.  We know that we have too few and too little experience.  But I will say that I get to Ohio a number of times each year and have not been overly impressed.  I think they seem to go way overboard on the nearfall counts.  This past weekend I saw some points awarded during the time it took my to blink my eyes.

It seems like everyone agrees that Barnett is one of the top guys in KY.  Who else does a good job?

Unfortunately, I don't know any of the others names.  Seems that I can always remember the names of the ones I don't care for.  I don't have much experience with Ohio.  I have alot of experience in Indiana and overall believe they are more professional and consistent.  As with other refs, I don't always agree with how they call it, but from mat to mat, you'll get a consistent call.  I don't like, however, that they don't seem to give points when there is a takedown out of bounds even though the wrestler still has both feet clearly in bounds.  The key for a good officiated tournament in any state should be consistency in the calls from mat to mat.  It is hard enough for a wrestler to strategize for a match with an opponent without having to figure out which referee they are going to have as well.

Ranger,

I go to OH as well, that doesn't mean they are good officials.  As a matter of fact, the worst (give or take) officiating I have ever seen was in Madison, IN. 

I am sure these officials are brought in to these big tournaments for  a reason, they are good.  Shouldn't we open our minds and learn from the best. 

i realize this thread was started to discuss the better refs and why, but it has sort of people don't want this thread to get to a point of personally attacking refs....and perhaps another thread should be started, BUT...i wanted to throw this idea out there on how the referee situation could be improved.  In ohio, their refs are required to attend a certain number of actual training sessions.  they usually cover a few specific topics.  such as stalling.  they review films, etc.  there is usually a senior referee who watches the film with the group, and they discuss it.  it seems to me this is how they develop consistency. 

Ex hawk, firmed it nicely.  There is probably good reason why I have never seen an official from KY at any national or national caliper tournament. 

We saw the KY Lady Ref at Fargo, (I think her name is Tasha). Doesnt get much bigger than that for youth wrestling, she does a great job!

I have also seen another KY Ref at a National but I dont know his name, blonde hair crew cut, great ref, very professional!

i realize this thread was started to discuss the better refs and why, but it has sort of people don't want this thread to get to a point of personally attacking refs....and perhaps another thread should be started, BUT...i wanted to throw this idea out there on how the referee situation could be improved.  In Ohio, their refs are required to attend a certain number of actual training sessions.  they usually cover a few specific topics.  such as stalling.  they review films, etc.  there is usually a senior referee who watches the film with the group, and they discuss it.  it seems to me this is how they develop consistency. 

Phee, that requirement to attend training or clinic is true to improve the consistency and understanding of the rules.

Regrettable, we don't have enough events over the summer and fall to assist the referee's.  Maybe, the Kentucky Coaches Assoication or Coach Smith could sponsor a few events with some of the top referee's from KY, Ind, OH. for our newer referee's.

What tape, discuss right-wrong call's and why, common mistakes, lesson learned ect. 

Maybe even make the coaches attend :?

If you don't attend one of the events, your not certified to referee :?

Its a start.

I think Mark Shumate does a great job.  You know he is in control of the match at all points, but yet he doesn't make the match about himself.  He is clear, quick and concise with his decisions and is very consistent.  What I like most about Shumate is that he talks to you like a human.  Anyway, there are some other good ones out there.  One, and I can't remember his last name off hand, is Rocky (somebody help me with the last name).  He reffed at the Lonesome this year.  He is another one who seems to always be in control of the match yet the spotlight is where it should be and that is on the kids.  A few young refs to watch for IMO are Sam Durbin and Tom Kusnir.  We have had them a couple of times this year and for 1st (Tom) and 2nd (Sam) year refs, they do a pretty good job.  They seem to very knowledgable of the rules and are what I think is the most important thing for a ref, consistent.

Old School.  

    Most of your ideas are sound however we already have a shortage of officials in KY.  We don't have enough to go around already.  I believe that this was discussed about having them attend a meeting or two, but as I have pointed out if we loose more officials then we will not have enough.

    As for the Caution calls in KY.  The reason they are called is because they are there.  In other states you don't have as many 1st year wrestlers wrestling varsity.  Most of them have wrestled for many years and know the rules and don't start incorrectly.  Once again.  If it is an illegal start it needs to be called.  It has little to do with the officials but more to do with the wrestlers committing the cautions.  

    As for officials from Ky.  Don Salyers use to do the national events back in the 80s and early 90s.  He also did collage events.  He was the head official in Ky for many years.  

Its frustrating to continue to hear that programs are going under, or new ones can't be created;not because no kids - but NO Coaches. 

We have continuing problems with a lack of quality officials or just lack of. 

Do the other sports have these problems :? If not why and what can be done to resolve our sports problem.

I wonder what Mr. Julian Tackett, Assistant Commissioner and the rest of the states board members are doing to assist with small sports marketing, see'ing what works in other states ect to grow our sports:?

I know we spend LOTS of MONEY$$ for these guys to go to meeting, seminars ect.

Wouldn't that be part of his responsibilites, or is it to just keep Football and Basketball folks happy :x

Again, frustrating :-(

I don't really think there is an answer to the officials in Kentucky.  The best thing we could do is encourage those of our wrestlers who are graduating to try and get into it while they are in college or at their other jobs.  This way you at least have someone who has a feeling for wrestling and knowing what it's like.  Wrestling is a little different from basketball, baseball, football where people have watched hundreds or thousands of games on t.v. or in live and have a feel for it that way.  Referee's are required to go to a rules meeting each year and pass the test(to participate in postseason) but making it much more than that might discourage them to do it or make it not possible for them to if they are involved in other things the rest of the year.  We also need to try and not run off the new ones but offer what we thought was good/bad etc.  I think if the newer ones were able to do more scrimmages and wrestle off's in the beginning of the season that would help as well. 

I don't really think there is an answer to the officials in Kentucky.  The best thing we could do is encourage those of our wrestlers who are graduating to try and get into it while they are in college or at their other jobs.  This way you at least have someone who has a feeling for wrestling and knowing what it's like.  Wrestling is a little different from basketball, baseball, football where people have watched hundreds or thousands of games on t.v. or in live and have a feel for it that way.  Referee's are required to go to a rules meeting each year and pass the test(to participate in postseason) but making it much more than that might discourage them to do it or make it not possible for them to if they are involved in other things the rest of the year.  We also need to try and not run off the new ones but offer what we thought was good/bad etc.  I think if the newer ones were able to do more scrimmages and wrestle off's in the beginning of the season that would help as well. 

KY coaches Assocation gets together with referees sets up live instructionaly clinics and videos . Each region needs to host one with all the coaches in each region and the refes in that area. If u desire a out side opinion then invite refs from outside Ky to with the clinics. The more times these clinics are held the better the calls will be. There will be something accountablity.

I disagree Grappler of Old, I saw plenty of what would normally be called cautions at the Ironman.  Fact is they don't give a crap and frankly see it as a waste of time.  They didn't even take the time to check, the whistle was blown before the top had time to settle in. 

Don Salyers was the man. 

In western KY the majority of referees have a slow way of hitting a guy for stalling. In practice we make the guys work and tell our wrestlers to go forward. If a wrestler is constantly being pushed back and does not at least circle, then he is stalling. Then when these western Kentucky kids get to state, they get burned for stalling when they take a step back. We do need consistency.

Back points are very inconsistent and the calling of takedowns until you get to the refs at state. You see new refs pop up all the time. I have done my share of reffing. It is not easy, when you recieve little to no training. The test is nice, but I agree the training videos and meetings with a senior ref would be a great start.

I AGREE totally with the two toes in rule for a takedown. I cant begin to tell you how many times I see a kid takedown a wrestler and drag their toes to keep them in bounds. We teach that, and then when the kid does not receive the takedown, they are really down.

There was one middle school boy this year who put a double chicken wing locked at the middle of the back. The kid was getting ready to turn his opponent and the ref stopped the match saying that he had to have it locked either to the right or left side. Ive never heard of that......Could be wrong but I dont think so....

A lot of work. Dont think that the refs are trying to make bad calls, they just need uniform training methods. Consistency is key.

Yes, i agree that consistency is the key. I think our reffs need to be consistent on a state and national level. KY wrestling is growing by leaps and bounds, and this past year we saw way more kids compete at a national level than ever before, and I expect those numbers to be even higher this year. We need to try to get our officiating consistent on the national level so that our wrestlers are not at a disadvantage.

so how do we get all of these refs to undergo offseason training to remain certified. I think Julian should address this. We should bring it to his attention at a meeting or during the offseason. Probably would have to be addressed in the offseason to flow into the wrestling season right.

Tough question, colonelcoach, because I think this is an issue of supply and demand.  Unless you are aware of a large number of wanna be referees, we have a limited bench.  Therefore, it is difficult to enforce additional requirements or conditions to officiate.  Somewhere along the line, individuals are making the decision not to officiate wrestling.  This does not seem to be an issue in other sports but you also don't have "all day" commitments in football, basketball, soccer or other sports.  I don't know about the pay element but it may not be worth their time.

I think the referees in ky Do the best they can with what they know, BUt I agree we need to find a way to send ky refs to better events or clinics to learn from the best out there, Also they will let ANYONE  ref in ky on acount of the One test and rules clinic and shortage of good certified referees, THere should be a longer process to determan if a referee is ready for a varsity event!

My biggest complaints with the refs; they ref one way all year, then down state totally change their habits thereby grossly confusing the wrestlers and coaches.  I am absolutely convinced the refs aggressively/foolishly call stalling down state in an attempt to showboat to their ref colleagues that they are tough on stalling.

Todd Cole is consistent ALL YEAR; free style quick pins, slow near-fall counts, quick to call stalling, picky on lining up properly. Like him or not, he only has one mode, but you know exactly what you are getting. The others down state, who knows how they are going to call a match.   

My biggest complaints with the refs; they ref one way all year, then down state totally change their habits thereby grossly confusing the wrestlers and coaches.  I am absolutely convinced the refs aggressively/foolishly call stalling down state in an attempt to showboat to their ref colleagues that they are tough on stalling.

Todd Cole is consistent ALL YEAR; free style quick pins, slow near-fall counts, quick to call stalling, picky on lining up properly. Like him or not, he only has one mode, but you know exactly what you are getting. The others down state, who knows how they are going to call a match.   

Very true.  Cole may not be everyone's favorite, but most every coach and wrestler around the state knows exactly what to expect when they step on the mat with Cole officiating.  They may not always like it, but they aren't surprised.

    I would have to agree, Cole is consistant all year.  The one other aspect I like about Cole is that he allows the wrestlers to wrestle.  When Cole and Cataan ref you know it will be a rough match.  Both of these refs allow for a rough match.  They allow the kids to bang and hit the mat hard.  This is what I like to see.  We talk about other event outside of KY, this is what I see outside of KY.  Things that Ky officials call slams are routine in Ohio and are not given a second look. (Where I have seen the majority of my out of state matches, only a few in Indiana and Illinois). 

Patrick Mcnutt and Cole are the best refs, imo

So far in this wrestling season, I am unimpressed with the officiating.  Much of the same showoff antics by one particular official who insists on the match being about him, not the wrestlers.  I don't understand why he gets away with it year after year.  I personally am sick of it.

Most of the Region 2 ref's are very good this year no complaint from any of them. The one guy from Larue Co. is making my stat girl crazy. lol. but other than that they are ok this year.

Most of the Region 2 ref's are very good this year no complaint from any of them. The one guy from Larue Co. is making my stat girl crazy. lol. but other than that they are ok this year.

:-o :? :roll: :roll: :-o

Not sure which ones you have seen. :wink:

they are on top of stalling this year i have seen it more the 1st half of the season than all of last year

:-o

:-o :? :roll: :roll: :-o

Not sure which ones you have seen. :wink:

No disrespect to any ref's I can't remember his name but he is the short one with the big beard.

So far in this wrestling season, I am unimpressed with the officiating.  Much of the same showoff antics by one particular official who insists on the match being about him, not the wrestlers.  I don't understand why he gets away with it year after year.  I personally am sick of it.

Sounds like Shaw to me.  :-o :evil:

No disrespect to any ref's I can't remember his name but he is the short one with the big beard.

Tom Hardy?

man idk this guys name but he was an amazing ref...he was older had coached for like 27 years....he would call you for anything in a heart beat...he kept the moonlite duels fun...he called me for stallin when i locked up for like 5 sec. i can really respect a guy like that....he has hair thinning on the top of hes hair really old ....but man he rocked!!!!

man idk this guys name but he was an amazing ref...he was older had coached for like 27 years....he would call you for anything in a heart beat...he kept the moonlite duels fun...he called me for stalling when i locked up for like 5 sec. i can really respect a guy like that....he has hair thinning on the top of hes hair really old ....but man he rocked!!!!

Proably Mickey Walls

I love it when Cole is on my mat, I see people all around saying how they hate the way that he calls things, but like many of you have said, he is very consistent, and very good at getting the kids to actually wrestle. He hates boring matches just like the rest of us so he calls the kids for stalling very early to get them going, he also talks to you during the match, which is nice, Cole is my favorite ref, hands down.

idk but he called stalling like every 3 sec. ...and he didnt hesitate to eject anyone from the match...it was really good.but he made the championship match fun at apollo.... :-P

I think consistency is the key for any of them.  I probably saw the worst weekend of refereeing this weekend at the JCTC.  With two elder referees there and one relatively new one and then one that has been for about 6 years.  The new one was bad but he is always bad so that was to be expected.  This weekend was up and down, you never knew if stalling was going to be called in 5 seconds or if never, and it wasn't even just from one ref to another, but from one match to another by the same ref.  Really dissapointing considering three of these four will be at the state tournament I am sure. 

yea i heard about that...thats horrible for a tourny that big :|

I think that Jeremy Callen is one of the better Refs. He is very consistent in all the matches that I have seen him in over the past 3 years.

So what officials do you think should work the state this year?

How about Cole, Cole, Cole, Cole, Cole and Cole work state.  Can we clone him like 6 times?

I've heard Cattan will not be asked to work at state this season

I've heard Cattan will not be asked to work at state this season

By who?

Barnett without a doubt!

By who?

My Coach who coached Cattan in high school

My Coach who coached Cattan in high school

Doubt he won't be there.  love him or hate him, he's consistent.

i know callen wont be able to do it this year he said, he has military duty that weekend

Doubt he won't be there.  love him or hate him, he's consistent.

Barnett and Cole are my votes...whoever says cattan is consistent is wacked.  He has to be the most inconsistent (on purpose) ref there is.  The only thing consistent about cattan is he is controversial and a showoff.  If you like him, maybe you should request him to ref every match you or someone you love is in as long as its not me.

I think we'd be better off outsourcing to another state.

Barnett and Cole are my votes...whoever says cattan is consistent is wacked.  He has to be the most inconsistent (on purpose) ref there is.  The only thing consistent about cattan is he is controversial and a showoff.   If you like him, maybe you should request him to ref every match you or someone you love is in as long as its not me.

I think we'd be better off outsourcing to another state.

You say that we should outsource to another state. That is a reason that we can not build up a solid officials pool. There are a lot of guys that can do state and should be given the chance. If we do not give these guys a chance they get frustrated and stop officiating because they have been passed up and not given a chance to prove themself.

Mark Grahm is one of the better referees no one complains about him so that should say something. I don't think he is the region 1 rep. this year though Mickey Walls I heard was. Can anyone confirm this? If so year in and year out we have good referees.

Mickey Walls did take over the referee job for Region 1

whoever says cattan is consistent is wacked.  He has to be the most inconsistent (on purpose) ref there is.  The only thing consistent about cattan is he is controversial and a showoff.   If you like him, maybe you should request him to ref every match you or someone you love is in as long as its not me.

I think we'd be better off outsourcing to another state.

Two of the silliest comments I have ever heard on this site.

eaglewrestler112, who is your coach?  Unless he coached at Doss, he didn't coach Cattan in high school.  Anyway, back on subject, I think a lot of guys are leaving out Mark Shumate.  I like Barnett as well, but he has not been as consistent as in years past.  Also, like him or not, Jim Shaw is also a good official.  I don't have much experience with Cole.  If he is the guy I am thinking of, he reffed at state last year correct?

eaglewrestler112, who is your coach?  Unless he coached at Doss, he didn't coach Cattan in high school.  Anyway, back on subject, I think a lot of guys are leaving out Mark Shumate.  I like Barnett as well, but he has not been as consistent as in years past.  Also, like him or not, Jim Shaw is also a good official.  I don't have much experience with Cole.  If he is the guy I am thinking of, he reffed at state last year correct?

yes cole was at state last year

The Shaw brothers (i think wrestled for LaRue) in my opinion are biased towards LaRue, and also the teams that they lost to while they were in high school. Seems like they dont stop reliving their high school days and take it out on teams when they are reffing their matches.

I'm not a fan of Jim Shaw either.  Much to arrogant and there always seems to be problems when he officiates.

The Shaws wrestled at Eastern.  I have never had a problem with Jim or Chris.  Just because they didn't give you a call or two does not mean they are terrible.  Like I said, like him or not, Jim Shaw is a good official.

The Shaws wrestled at Eastern.  I have never had a problem with Jim or Chris.  Just because they didn't give you a call or two does not mean they are terrible.  Like I said, like him or not, Jim Shaw is a good official.

No I am pretty sure they wrestled for Laure the younger one Chris graduated in 2002

No I am pretty sure they wrestled for Laure the younger one Chris graduated in 2002

Yep, I believe it was Larue.

Two of the silliest comments I have ever heard on this site.

Old Grappler, ever is pretty dramatic.  I don't understand why you think it is so silly.  Can you elaborate?

Old Grappler, ever is pretty dramatic.  I don't understand why you think it is so silly.  Can you elaborate?

Both Shaws wrestled for LaRue.  The younge rplaced 4th one yr I think.

Grappler, dramatic.......nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnooooooooooo wwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy

I stand corrected then.  My fault.

The elaboration would be that Cattan calls the match the same no matter who is wrestling. 

As for finding out of state officials.  This is the Kentucky State Wresting Tournament. Therefore you send the best officials you have in Kentucky.  As was mentioned.  Reward those officials that have worked hard all year in Kentucky.  They were the ones officiating the matches when we needed them during the regular season.  Don't abandon them when it comes to the post season.

The elaboration would be that Cattan calls the match the same no matter who is wrestling. 

As for finding out of state officials.  This is the Kentucky State Wresting Tournament. Therefore you send the best officials you have in Kentucky.  As was mentioned.  Reward those officials that have worked hard all year in Kentucky.  They were the ones officiating the matches when we needed them during the regular season.  Don't abandon them when it comes to the post season.

Agree completely.  Cattan may not be the best, but he is consistent.  My vote would goto Cole every time though.  You know he is consistent, knowledgeable, and he calls stalling in like 1.222 seconds.

This year has been the worst one for Barnett in several years....He had a few good years and now people think he is better than he really is.  And is way too arrogant and thinks he is always right.  Cattan always wants people to look at him, thi past weekend he had several questionable calls that he called in some matches but not in others.  Shumate is pretty good and getting better every year, I know he has just started a new job and has been having some conflict with that this year and wasn't sure if he would even be able to get off for that many days.  Jim Shaw has good days and bad days, when he is having a bad day watch out!

eaglewrestler112, who is your coach?  Unless he coached at Doss, he didn't coach Cattan in high school.  Anyway, back on subject, I think a lot of guys are leaving out Mark Shumate.  I like Barnett as well, but he has not been as consistent as in years past.  Also, like him or not, Jim Shaw is also a good official.  I don't have much experience with Cole.  If he is the guy I am thinking of, he reffed at state last year correct?

Agree completely.  Cattan may not be the best, but he is consistent.  My vote would goto Cole every time though.  You know he is consistent, knowledgeable, and he calls stalling in like 1.222 seconds.

At least we agree completely on this OW :-o

At least we agree completely on this OW :-o

It warms my heart.  :-D

I will have to go with Barnett . CATTAN AND COLE HAVE GOT TO BE THE WORST IN THE STATE!!!!!! They may be consistant but it is consistantly bad. Callen isnt the best either but id rather have him than the other 2. Barnett has always seemed to be consistant in a good way and Friddle is a good ref , maybe a little slow on calling a pin but all around a good ref.

I will have to go with Barnett . CATTAN AND COLE HAVE GOT TO BE THE WORST IN THE STATE!!!!!! They may be consistant but it is consistantly bad. Callen isnt the best either but id rather have him than the other 2. Barnett has always seemed to be consistant in a good way and Friddle is a good ref , maybe a little slow on calling a pin but all around a good ref.

I take it you disagree with their calls?  What makes them bad then?

I think it depends on the type of official you like.  I prefer an official that allows the wrestlers to wrestle, lets them bang, (if you ain't bleeding you ain't trying) and calls stalling quickly and often. 

I too would like to know why Cattan and Cole are the worst. :-o