Wrestler A:

(Has been to state the last two, record 1-2 & 1-2 and is ranked #8th in the state)

Seeded 5th, 1st match wins F1:36

                  2nd match wins Dec 13-9

                  3nd match wins Dec 15-3  over #1 seed who won 1st match wins F2:27, 2nd Dec 11-6

                                                      (ranked #1 in the state and who placed 2nd in state last year)

                  4th match wins Dec  4-2  over #2 seed who won 1st match wins F1:09, 2nd Dec 4-2, 3rd                 

                                                      Dec 11-1(ranked #5 in the state and was 2-2 in state last year)

                    OR

Wrestler B:

(Ranked #1 in the state, Placed 1st last yr., 5th the yr.before at state)

Seeded 1st, 1st match wins F:44

                  2nd match wins F 1:39

                  3nd match wins Dec 6-0  over #4 seed who won 1st match wins Dec 9-2, 2nd Dec 4-2, 3nd                           

                                                    match 2-1 (ranked #7 in the state and went 3-2 in state last year)

                  4th match wins Dec  4-2  over #2 seed who won 1st match wins F:19, 2nd F1:17, 3rd                 

                                                      Dec 4-3(ranked #3 in the state and who placed 1st in state last

                                                      year and was 3-2 the year before)

           

all i can say is WCI

why dont u just said webb and martin

lol good call Granby

U are a loser that had to take u a long ass time to write all that stuff

why dont u just said Webb and martin

Because the point is the only thing that pepole ( liberals) look at is a name! Not facts!! Fact is (A) wrestler, was the impressive wrestler because he had to over come obstacles that he never faced! ( wrestler, you expect a lot more out of and to fight through these types of pressure matches and be victorious. (A) wrestler, went over and above and dug deep, and fact is, he was more impressive, it wasn't hes name, it was facts on paper!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wrestler A:

(Has been to state the last two, record 1-2 & 1-2 and is ranked #8th in the state)

Seeded 5th, 1st match wins F1:36

                  2nd match wins Dec 13-9

                  3nd match wins Dec 15-3  over #1 seed who won 1st match wins F2:27, 2nd Dec 11-6

                                                      (ranked #1 in the state and who placed 2nd in state last year)

                  4th match wins Dec  4-2  over #2 seed who won 1st match wins F1:09, 2nd Dec 4-2, 3rd                 

                                                      Dec 11-1(ranked #5 in the state and was 2-2 in state last year)

                    OR

Wrestler B:

(Ranked #1 in the state, Placed 1st last yr., 5th the yr.before at state)

Seeded 1st, 1st match wins F:44

                  2nd match wins F 1:39

                  3nd match wins Dec 6-0  over #4 seed who won 1st match wins Dec 9-2, 2nd Dec 4-2, 3nd                           

                                                    match 2-1 (ranked #7 in the state and went 3-2 in state last year)

                  4th match wins Dec  4-2  over #2 seed who won 1st match wins F:19, 2nd F1:17, 3rd                 

                                                      Dec 4-3(ranked #3 in the state and who placed 1st in state last

                                                      year and was 3-2 the year before)

           

GSP, very good stuff, facts are facts, this is real stats that make the difference between popularity and reality.

U are a loser that had to take u a long butt time to write all that stuff

Patriot 165, your just jealous that you where not smart enough to figure all that out on your own, its ok!! It will all work out in the end.

U are a loser that had to take u a long butt time to write all that stuff

Nothing to do about winning or losing, more about what the MOW is!

What is the definition of MOW?

To me it is the guy that went above and beyond what everyone excepted on that day or days. If every one excepts you to do well and you do GREAT. But if you come out of no where and do what no one thought you could do then you had a special day. Look back at the woodford final predictions (http://www.kentuckywrestling.com/smf/index.php?topic=3498.msg31492#msg31492) and tell me whose name you don't see and those are ones that I would looked at very hard. No names from me because there are others that I might have given it to, if I had a vote. Just something to think about?

Should be :

and tell me whose names you don't see and those are ones that I would looked at very hard.

You can't say the MOW is the guy who goes above & beyond what is expected.  Example, let's say a kid has not won a match all year and comes out of no where & places 3rd at the WCI, Dragon, or whatever hypothetical tournament you want to come up with.  Are you going to vote for the guy who places 3rd?  He went way above what anyone expected.  No, you vote for the kid who wrestled the best at the tournament, regardless of name.  You are saying you shouldn't vote for someone just because of name recognition.  I am saying you shouldn't not vote for someone just because of name recognition & what they have done in the past.  Besides, if you are speaking of the WCI, it should have been Harrison Courtney or Ryan Houchens, not Trent Webb or Elliott Martin (no disrespect to them).  Courtney was flat out dominant including a tech fall in the finals.  Anybody see the banana split he placed on the kid from Westfield in the finals?  Ouch!!  Houchens pinned his way through the entire tournament.  He was the only one besides maybe the HWT who might have done so.  Speaking of which, the HWT who won the tournament was from McCreary Central.  He was a freshman and was not seeded at the tournament at all!!  If you want an MOW, then he would have been a better choice.

Point taken, but your Example, let's say a kid has not won a match all year and comes out of no where & places 3rd at the WCI, Dragon, or whatever hypothetical tournament you want to come up with.  Are you going to vote for the guy who places 3rd?  He went way above what anyone expected.

This example doesn't work, the John kid won the tournament, not third.

Yes, Harrison and Houchins did dominate, but I think we all expected that.

The Mcceary freshman is another good choice, not being ranked and winning. 

But were any of the Hwt. in the top three in the state?

Either way, all the kids mentioned all did a great job in winning the 07 WCI.

I have to agree that Webb beating two top ranked kids is impressive :wink:

It will be interesting when Webb matches up with Ashbrook next week.:wink:

You can't say the MOW is the guy who goes above & beyond what is expected.  Example, let's say a kid has not won a match all year and comes out of no where & places 3rd at the WCI, Dragon, or whatever hypothetical tournament you want to come up with.  Are you going to vote for the guy who places 3rd?  He went way above what anyone expected.  No, you vote for the kid who wrestled the best at the tournament, regardless of name.       

Agree to a point!  But as an example, you have a returning two time state champion and he pins in all of his matches in the first period. But all of his matches were against non ranked opponents, would this make him the MOW. Even if a non ranked kid takes 1st and beat three top 15 ranked kids?   

You are saying you shouldn't vote for someone just because of name recognition.  I am saying you shouldn't not vote for someone just because of name recognition & what they have done in the past.

Agree!!!

Besides, if you are speaking of the WCI, it should have been Harrison Courtney or Ryan Houchens, not Trent Webb or Elliott Martin (no disrespect to them).  Courtney was flat out dominant including a tech fall in the finals.  Anybody see the banana split he placed on the kid from Westfield in the finals?

Agree!  (not where I would want to be)  Ouch!!

Houchens pinned his way through the entire tournament.  He was the only one besides maybe the HWT who might have done so.  Speaking of which, the HWT who won the tournament was from McCreary Central.  He was a freshman and was not seeded at the tournament at all!!  If you want an MOW, then he would have been a better choice.

Agree! He is also someone that wasn't on the WIC predictions, and I would have to take a hard look at.

You have touched on my ? What is the definition of MOW?

The definition of Most:1  : greatest in quantity, extent, or degree <the most ability>  2  : the majority of <most people

The definition of Outstanding: 1: standing out : projecting2 a: unpaid <left several bills outstanding> b: continuing to exist : unresolved <a long outstanding problem in astronomy> cof securities : publicly issued and sold3 a: standing out from a group : conspicuous b: marked by eminence and distinction

The definition of Wrestler: 1: to contend by grappling with and striving to trip or throw an opponent down or off balance2: to combat an opposing tendency or force <wrestling with his conscience>3: to engage in deep thought, consideration, or debate4: to engage in or as if in a violent or determined struggle <wrestling with cumbersome luggage>transitive verb1 a: to engage in (a match, bout, or fall) in wrestling b: to wrestle with <wrestle an alligator>2: to move, maneuver, or force with difficulty

Just trying to see how others believe the MOW should be picked or how they believe they are picked now. Wrestler A & B was a good way to get the discussion started.

Sorry, Thought that I had changed what I had wrote to red. The post does look the way I wanted.

Ahh this is an age old question.

Who do you give the most outstanding award to.

1.  Do you give it to the wrestler that may have upset someone in the finals or somewhere else in the tourney?

2.  Do you give it to the best wrestler at the tourney?

Sometimes on rare occasions it is both.  Either way you look at this it will be unfair to one wrestler.

If you are the wrestler that upset someone then you probably are not the best wrestler at the tourney, you could have had a great match or day, or even got lucky and caught your opponent in a pin situation. 

If you are the over dominant wrestler you may never win the MOW.  Because you are suppose to be that good.  If you pin your way through the tourney and you were suppose to then you cannot win the award.

The question I ask is when the day is over and you are at home, can you say that you were the best wrestler at the tournament, or were you the most opportunistic wrestler at the tournament that day.  I for one would have to take a good look at myself and ask that question.  If I could not answer it with a yes then I would not feel like the most outstanding wrestler.

As you have said I look at what the wrestler accomplished.  Did he pin his way through?  Did he dominate his opponents? Regardless if he was suppose to or not.

If you want to look at the facts take out the rankings of each of the kids, that is just as bad as looking at their names.

YOU JUST SAID IT PERFECT!!!!!!!

You can't say the MOW is the guy who goes above & beyond what is expected.  Example, let's say a kid has not won a match all year and comes out of no where & places 3rd at the WCI, Dragon, or whatever hypothetical tournament you want to come up with.  Are you going to vote for the guy who places 3rd?  He went way above what anyone expected.  No, you vote for the kid who wrestled the best at the tournament, regardless of name.  You are saying you shouldn't vote for someone just because of name recognition.  I am saying you shouldn't not vote for someone just because of name recognition & what they have done in the past.  Besides, if you are speaking of the WCI, it should have been Harrison Courtney or Ryan Houchens, not Trent Webb or Elliott Martin (no disrespect to them).  Courtney was flat out dominant including a tech fall in the finals.  Anybody see the banana split he placed on the kid from Westfield in the finals?  Ouch!!  Houchens pinned his way through the entire tournament.  He was the only one besides maybe the HWT who might have done so.  Speaking of which, the HWT who won the tournament was from McCreary Central.  He was a freshman and was not seeded at the tournament at all!!  If you want an MOW, then he would have been a better choice.

You guys that responded to the question about (A) wrestler and ( wrestler, sidetracked (manipulate) the point,  the stats that where posted by MYGSP are facts!! The ? was not about Courtney, Houchens or the kid for McCreary Cen. Period!!! The issue was (A) wrestler ,( wrestler not anyone eles wrestling. Stay to the facts that where presented.

Wrestler A:

(Has been to state the last two, record 1-2 & 1-2)

Seeded 5th, 1st match wins F1:36

                  2nd match wins Dec 13-9

                  3nd match wins Dec 15-3  over #1 seed who won 1st match wins F2:27, 2nd Dec 11-6

                                                      (placed 2nd in state last year)

                  4th match wins Dec  4-2  over #2 seed who won 1st match wins F1:09, 2nd Dec 4-2, 3rd                                                            Dec 11-1(was 2-2 in state last year)

                    OR

Wrestler B:

(Placed 1st last yr., 5th the yr.before at state)

Seeded 1st, 1st match wins F:44

                  2nd match wins F 1:39

                  3nd match wins Dec 6-0  over #4 seed who won 1st match wins Dec 9-2, 2nd Dec 4-2, 3nd                                                              match 2-1 ( went 3-2 in state last year)

                  4th match wins Dec  4-2  over #2 seed who won 1st match wins F:19, 2nd F1:17, 3rd               

                                                      Dec 4-3(who placed 1st in state last year and was 3-2 the year                         

                                                      before)

           

No rankings now, would your vote change?

1.  Do you give it to the wrestler that may have upset someone in the finals or somewhere else in the tourney?

I would say NO, not one upset. But 2 or 3 and takes 1st?

Example: Travis Sullivan wrestles Mason Reid (no wight limit match), they both shoot and hit heads. Mason goes to his back out cold Travis jumps on him, REF calls a pin. upset if you are betting on it only. (only a example no disrespect to Travis Sullivan or Mason Reid )

2.  Do you give it to the best wrestler at the tourney?

We will never know the answer to this ? because, they don't all wrestler each other. (i guess we could have the 105 champ wrestle the 112 champ, that winner wrestles the 119 champ, that winner wrestles the 125 champ, ...,that winner wrestles the 285 champ

) No this would make me miss my bed time.

? What are the coaches looking at when they vote. I vote for my top placer and hope he gets it or the 152 champ took 1st and since he was 1st at 145 last yr and is 25-0 this yr I vote for him.

What does everyone think makes an MOW? (give your opinion, because that is what the voters are doing)

Frogman post

"You guys that responded to the question about (A) wrestler and ( wrestler, sidetracked (manipulate) the point,  the stats that where posted by MYGSP are facts!! The ? was not about Courtney, Houchens or the kid for McCreary Cen. Period!!! The issue was (A) wrestler ,( wrestler not anyone eles wrestling. Stay to the facts that where presented."

At some time in anyones wrestling career, they could be wrestler A or B. Trying to leave names out of it what should be looked at? If I wanted to vote for wrestler Z, all I want to know is what did he do at the tourney. I would have to looked at seeding, records, who has beat who, how they have did at state before, of all the wrestlers that Z beat to win. The same as I would if I had a choice between wrestler Q and W.

Only going by the facts written I don't think I could decide.  I would have had to see the wrestlers actually wrestle.  I would then decide who I believed was the better wrestler.

Only going by the facts written I don't think I could decide.  I would have had to see the wrestlers actually wrestle.  I would then decide who I believed was the better wrestler.

What would you look for?

What if you only saw wrestler A wrestler two times (had to coach one of your kids) and all of wrestler B   matches, Could you vote then? (only two choices) Would it be right to vote without seeing all the matches? We all know that a coach can't see all the matches, but as you said, you would have to see them. What then, not seeing all matches?

Not sure what the answer is but, something we need to think about and voice your opinion maybe there is a better way to chose the MOW.

Should all the coaches get together after the last match, and voice their opinions on what they saw? Just like in the seeding meeting.

If a coach leaves early than he has no MOW vote?

If wrestler A is indeed Webb of John Hardin i believe that yes he should have goten the MOW. and it shouldn't have been given to Martin if in fact you are talking about Martin as wrestler B.

It was a given that Martin was and did win, we as coaches and wrestlers expected him to win. No disrespect to John Hardin but if you looked at the 152 bracket you wouldn't have expected Webb to win, you would had expected Dakota to win. See why Wrestler A would had been more of the MOW than that of wrestler B. If those where the wrestlers he was talking about I don't know if they where and I don't want to assume.

No rankings now, would your vote change?

Sorry Ranger, but you don't rank MOW at each tourney. I don't get how you can tell us who in the best wrestler in the state at each weight class and which team will win the team title and state duals. If you were so smart you could tell us who will be the MOW at each tourney and state. :-D

It would be easier on the coaches, but you have to keep it to yourself. :? :? :? :?

i am trowing this out here maybe wrestler A and B should not have been MOW and Harrison Courtney should have been he was by far the best wrestler at WCI come on he did a banana split lol

Again the funny thing about that is everyone expected him to win same as Martin we expected Courtney to win. And so what about the banana split I can do cheetah flips to and I'm 34 yrs. old.

Again the funny thing about that is everyone expected him to win same as Martin we expected Courtney to win. And so what about the banana split I can do cheetah flips to and I'm 34 yrs. old.

i would like to see that some time lol

If wrestler A is indeed Webb of John Hardin i believe that yes he should have goten the MOW. and it shouldn't have been given to Martin if in fact you are talking about Martin as wrestler B.

It was a given that Martin was and did win, we as coaches and wrestlers expected him to win. No disrespect to John Hardin but if you looked at the 152 bracket you wouldn't have expected Webb to win, you would had expected Dakota to win. See why Wrestler A would had been more of the MOW than that of wrestler B. If those where the wrestlers he was talking about I don't know if they where and I don't want to assume.

Only wrestler A & B. no names, no WCI just what was given to you.

Post from Southern1:

"i am trowing this out here maybe wrestler A and B should not have been MOW and Harrison Courtney should have been he was by far the best wrestler at WCI come on he did a banana split lol"

Who is Harrison Courtney? ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTWXYZ (7 beers, I hope i got it right) And yes I got a great banana split at the DQ while attending the WCI.

How should the MOW be picked?

No disrespect to Harrison Courtney, Possum daddy.

Only wrestler A & B. no names, no WCI just what was given to you.

Post from Southern1:

"i am trowing this out here maybe wrestler A and B should not have been MOW and Harrison Courtney should have been he was by far the best wrestler at WCI come on he did a banana split lol"

Who is Harrison Courtney? ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTWXYZ (7 beers, I hope i got it right) And yes I got a great banana split at the DQ while attending the WCI.

How should the MOW be picked?

Ok I'm sorry about that then.

If a wrestler comes up out of know where and is seed or ranked medium to low and wins it all or gets runner up. Such as wrestler a looks like he did. Wrestler B no because he should of won it. If he didn't than he really wasn't seed 1 or ranked 1 he was a fake.

And just for kicks you left out U and V but let me guess it was the 7 beers.

Ok I'm sorry about that then.

If a wrestler comes up out of know where and is seed or ranked medium to low and wins it all or gets runner up. Such as wrestler a looks like he did. Wrestler B no because he should of won it. If he didn't than he really wasn't seed 1 or ranked 1 he was a fake.

And just for kicks you left out U and V but let me guess it was the 7 beers.

7 the case is gong! :-D :-D :-D

ok if you just want A or B  I like too see when a under dog wins in this case i like A becasue he had to beat the 1 seed and the 2 seed

7 the case is gong! :-D :-D :-D

Lucky for you.

ok if you just want A or B  I like too see when a under dog wins in this case i like A becasue he had to beat the 1 seed and the 2 seed

It happens in KY and outside of KY two, there are DQ's all over the USA. I know, ask Ranger123 from OZ he knows ALL. :-D :-D :-D

How should the MOW be picked???

Lucky for you.

Not really you spend a lot of $$$ to make yourself 9 months pregnant.

ok if you just want A or B  I like too see when a under dog wins in this case i like A becasue he had to beat the 1 seed and the 2 seed

I personally don't like the underdog winning the MOW.

How many times do we see a wrestler win the MOW because he upset someone then at the next tourney he fails to live up to the standard. 

Again I believe it should go to the best wrestler at the tourney.  If he was expected to win big and did so then he earns the title.  A am also thinking more on the lines of the state tourney.  If Sullivan wins his 4th state title and pins his way through the tourney and "Joe Schmo"  comes out of no where and wins 215, who gets the MOW out of these two.

In my opinion it goes to Sullivan.  He is at least arguably one of the top 3-5 wrestlers in the state.

I personally don't like the underdog winning the MOW.

How many times do we see a wrestler win the MOW because he upset someone then at the next tourney he fails to live up to the standard. 

Again I believe it should go to the best wrestler at the tourney.  If he was expected to win big and did so then he earns the title.  A am also thinking more on the lines of the state tourney.  If Sullivan wins his 4th state title and pins his way through the tourney and "Joe Schmo"  comes out of no where and wins 215, who gets the MOW out of these two.

In my opinion it goes to Sullivan.  He is at least arguably one of the top 3-5 wrestlers in the state.

yea i know what you are say and i agree you are right (well spoken)

I personally don't like the underdog winning the MOW.

How many times do we see a wrestler win the MOW because he upset someone then at the next tourney he fails to live up to the standard. 

Again I believe it should go to the best wrestler at the tourney.  If he was expected to win big and did so then he earns the title.  A am also thinking more on the lines of the state tourney.  If Sullivan wins his 4th state title and pins his way through the tourney and "Joe Schmo"  comes out of no where and wins 215, who gets the MOW out of these two.

In my opinion it goes to Sullivan.  He is at least arguably one of the top 3-5 wrestlers in the state.

MOW at state should go to the most outstanding wrestler at the 2008 tourney. If Joe Schmo pins his way through and wins his first state title, was 3rd or 4th at regions, is only in10th grade? To bring up Sullivan's  previous state titles has nothing to do with the 2007 MOW.

What should the voters look at when picking the MOW?

Should all the voters get together after the last match, and voice their opinions on who they pick as the MOW and why? Just like in the seeding meeting? Would this be a better way, Voters can't watch all the matches.

What should the voters look at when picking the MOW?

Who they believe is the best wrestler at the tourney.  Who dominated their wt. class. 

Technique, confidence, swagger, attitude, sportsmanship.  All of these make the wrestler a MOW.

Who they believe is the best wrestler at the tourney.  Who dominated their wt. class. 

Technique, confidence, swagger, attitude, sportsmanship.  All of these make the wrestler a MOW.

Agree with all!!!

BUT

No coach (voters for MOW) at a tourney can watch all the matches!

If you were this coach, how would you pick?

Example:

You miss wrestler A 2nd match where he was on his back three times and was down 13-5, before the other kid tries a throw, slips and gets pined by wrestler A. He does see all his other matches where he pins 1st match 4:30, 3rd match F 1:45, 4th match Dec 18-3 all, and in the finals Hits a throw to win F:45.

You see only two matches of wrestler B, 1st match Dec24-8, 2nd match F :55, he misses wrestler B last 3 matches (restroom, food, coaching his kid), 3rd match F 1:05, 4th match F 3:25, and in the finals Dec 17-2.

We are talking only about two wrestlers, what about the other matches at the rest of the weight classes that we missed. Or out of the matches we do see only one kid sticks out for MOW in our mind, even though we haven't seen the all. Do we vote for him?, knowing that someone else might deserve it more but we didn't see their matches.

So I would say there is a flaw in how the MOW is picked.

Is there a BETTER WAY?

Is there a BETTER WAY?

Yea we could pick from a hat

    I think most but not all the coaches watch the finals matches.  Those that do not either have already made up their minds who they are voting for or they don't care and don't vote at all. 

    Is there a better way?  I don't think so.  This award is subjective.  Each coach will determine their vote in their own way.  You can't have a meeting after the tourney, most if all will not go to the meeting.  The tourneys are already long enough.  Knowing a few coaches, some don't think the award is all that important anyway. 

    I do however believe that in most cases 99% of the time the correct wrestler is chosen (or at least on of the three that it could have been given to)

Yea we could pick from a hat

I think that is a grand idea

Every coach has to have their own criteria for picking MOW.  There doesn't need to be a set criteria.  That's why they take the votes from all of the coaches and choose the one with the most votes.

This subjected is about as old as my?????????????? Next! It will never change its all talk and popularity!!