Anyone know why they didn't show up?

They cancelled all of their weekday duals... :?

Yeah but the team duals?  That's just stupid.

I didn't say I agreed with it, thus the  :?  confusion.  lol

Maybe they didn't feel they had a chance to be in the top two.  Therefor not being able to qualify for the state duals. 

To me this does not seem stupid. 

Our Coaches wanted to have practice instead of attend the duals. They didn't feel the duals were beneficial to the team

Also, we would of had to forfeit quite a few weigh classes

Also, we would of had to forfeit quite a few weigh classes

translation:  you knew you were going to be worked.

Maybe they didn't feel they had a chance to be in the top two.  Therefor not being able to qualify for the state duals. 

To me this does not seem stupid. 

What sort of message does that send to the kids?  We can't compete with the best so we don't show.  I can maybe understand limiting the weeknight events, but when you have a regional event on the calendar you participate.  Even in those years when you aren't in the top 2.

It is no different than taking your team to an extremely tough tournament the year you have a good team. 

You don't participate in that same tournament when you have 1st year wrestlers on the team. 

You gear your schedule toward your ability.  You go to tournaments that compete with you not blow you out or you blow them out.

As for it being a regional meet.  this is not true, it is just a set of duals set up.  It is not a required event, very similar to what NKY has. The NKAC.  Not a required event but all do attend, or at least they have so far.

It is no different than taking your team to an extremely tough tournament the year you have a good team. 

You don't participate in that same tournament when you have 1st year wrestlers on the team. 

You gear your schedule toward your ability.  You go to tournaments that compete with you not blow you out or you blow them out.

As for it being a regional meet.  this is not true, it is just a set of duals set up.  It is not a required event, very similar to what NKY has. The NKAC.  Not a required event but all do attend, or at least they have so far.

Do you just like disagreeing with people?  B/c that what it seems like.

It may not be mandatory, but all the teams should be at the regional duals.  Might as well establish some pride/ rivalries. 

If you are forfeiting numerous weight classes, why take the team to dual competitions?  What kind of rivalries are formed under these conditions?  If you are unable to field a full team, the last thing that you would want to do is take the wrestlers that you do have and enter them into an event that they have no chance of winning.   

    No I don't just like disagreeing with people. 

    Lets take Nky for example, more specifically Holmes.

    Since I know their head coach very well if feel comfortable talking about them.

    In the last couple of years they have taken 4 or 5 to the NKAC.  The equivalent to the regional duals elswhere.

    This year they competed on the second day with only 1 wrestler.  Each year their wrestlers are demoralized at this event.  When the day ends they are so downtrodden that some of them quit soon afterwards.  I did not attend the NKAC but I heard from their coach that the 103 (the only wrestler on Sat.) was so down he did not want to wrestle the duals.

    How is this in any way beneficial to their team.  I know they have contimplated not going but they have a contrat through the NKAC to do so.  Being competitive creates rivalries and pride, not being destroyed in every dual.

    Teams such as these need to attend few dual tourneys, and compete mostly in bracket tourneys so that they can focus on the individual and not the team.

    Teams such as these need to attend few dual tourneys, and compete mostly in bracket tourneys so that they can focus on the individual and not the team.

I can see your point here. But we will have to agree to disagree on this one.  :-D

FYI  I believe the reason we wrestle a dual tournament in our region NKAC is to determine who will go to the state duals.  I was given this information by Coach Ruschell.  In the old days the NKAC was bracket tournament.  It is a very difficult situation for some of these teams who cannot field a full team.  Holmes, Boone, Newport and even Dixie at times have a hard time filling their squads.  Campbell County, Simon Kenton, Conner and Ryle have middle school teams and youth programs for the past several years which make a huge difference in the success of the programs.  A comment made on a recent thread spoke of the need for qualified coaches throughout the state.  If you look at the more successful programs year in and out they typically have a stable staff of coaches and that does help tremendously. 

Lawrence county in region 8 has only a few wrestlers and they are still going to attend region duals. If you only have a few wrestlers you focus more on the individual matchups then winning as a team.

Also, These Duals were originally scheduled to be on a weekend but were then changed to 2 weekdays in a row. Eastern just had a 2 day tournament and then we also have a match on Thursday and the Big East on Saturday. Our coaches did not feel it beneficial to go these duals because yes we didn't feel we would make top 2 and our coaches would have much rather been able to get some practices in before a thursday night match and the big east. OCMVP, I honestly don't know why you care so much about this, just get over it, we didn't show. Worry about your on team. OC was there so you should be happy about your "upset" over Fern Creek even though its pretty widely known that FC is not as strong as they were last year. I'm sure that if Fern Creek wasn't missing their 4 placers from last year in their lineup, the outcome of that dual would've been much different.

Also, These Duals were originally scheduled to be on a weekend but were then changed to 2 weekdays in a row. Eastern just had a 2 day tournament and then we also have a match on Thursday and the Big East on Saturday. Our coaches did not feel it beneficial to go these duals because yes we didn't feel we would make top 2 and our coaches would have much rather been able to get some practices in before a thursday night match and the big east. OCMVP, I honestly don't know why you care so much about this, just get over it, we didn't show. Worry about your on team. OC was there so you should be happy about your "upset" over Fern Creek even though its pretty widely known that FC is not as strong as they were last year. I'm sure that if Fern Creek wasn't missing their 4 placers from last year in their lineup, the outcome of that dual would've been much different.

Sharp Cheddar, American, or Goat?

It might have been.  Might not have.  At least we competed.

Eastern's reply is good enough. Leave it be.

OCMVP, I honestly don't know why you care so much about this, just get over it, we didn't show. Worry about your on team.

This is the same thoughts I was having.  I don't understand why people worry about other teams and what they do.  If they don't want to compete then so be it.  The only matches that really count are the ones at the state tourney.  All the rest are just a built up for the state tourney, you could even say they are just practice for the Region and state tourney.

This is the same thoughts I was having.  I don't understand why people worry about other teams and what they do.  If they don't want to compete then so be it.  The only matches that really count are the ones at the state tourney.  All the rest are just a built up for the state tourney, you could even say they are just practice for the Region and state tourney.

Ok fair enough, but then if you worry about that so much, has your 900+ posts all been about Boone?

Ok fair enough, but then if you worry about that so much, has your 900+ posts all been about Boone?

It's one things to comment on a team, but another to start an entire topic to basically bad mouth one

Ok fair enough, but then if you worry about that so much, has your 900+ posts all been about Boone?

No they have not.  I am no longer affiliated with a team.  I also don't purposely attack individual teams.  I may have shown distaste in a few teams attitudes but never attacked their integrity.

If I have then that was in no way my intentions. Unlike what seems to be going on here.  A thread purposely out to attack another team.

No they have not.  I am no longer affiliated with a team.  I also don't purposely attack individual teams.  I may have shown distaste in a few teams attitudes but never attacked their integrity.

If I have then that was in no way my intentions. Unlike what seems to be going on here.  A thread purposely out to attack another team.

Or a thread started by a kid who is mad that another team didn't show up for something he felt was important.  Which is to be expected from high school males. 

Or a thread started by a kid who is mad that another team didn't show up for something he felt was important.  Which is to be expected from high school males. 

Even if that were the reason the thread was started it turned into a full-on attack on Eastern that seemed to be lead by OCMVP. Btw just out of curiousity, what weight do you wrestle OCMVP?

Even if that were the reason the thread was started it turned into a full-on attack on Eastern that seemed to be lead by OCMVP. Btw just out of curiousity, what weight do you wrestle OCMVP?

A full out attack, don't be so sensitive.  Makes it seem like you have something to hide.

A full out attack, don't be so sensitive.  Makes it seem like you have something to hide.

Ok. Maybe it wasn't a full-on attack. It was another high school wrestler saying my coaches who I look up to decision was stupid. Which I still don't understand why it's a stupid decision to cut a meet off the schedule if it's causing your team to miss almost a week of practice. And, before you so we should of though of this before our schedule was made, I'll say again that this meet was changed from a weekend to 2 weekdays.

FYI  I believe the reason we wrestle a dual tournament in our region NKAC is to determine who will go to the state duals. 

This is true, however why am I forced to take my team to this event?  I think that each team should be asked if they would like to compete in a dual tourney that will decide the state duals.  If you do not participate then you cannot represent the region at the state duals that year.

If you look at the more successful programs year in and out they typically have a stable staff of coaches and that does help tremendously.  

This can be somewhat true, but I have been at Holmes for almost 9 years now. 

I'm not trying to say that I am the most competent coach or one of the best.  I am far from either but:

It takes much more than a stable coach.  It takes parent support, school support, and alumni support to produce a program. 

I would say more than anything else the success in most programs come from the last.  Many of the successful programs have alumni either working as volunteer coaches.  Coaching their elementary and middle school programs.  And showing up to practice every once and awhile,  giving their time back for those alumni that returned and wrestled them when they were competing. 

This is not to mention the volunteer work by alumni for table help, working concessions, and the such. 

I don't think this was necessarily started to trash Eastern, but to discuss the logic behind not attending.  I understand the thinking of a busy week.  But what is on the schedule for Thursday?  I assume it is an "important" meet.  And grappler, you gotta come up with something better than Holmes.  Bulldog helped everyone to understand that the two situations are dramatically different.  I understand that the regional duals are not a "required" event, but I think it is generally accepted that everyone will attend.  And the same goes for the competition level discussion.  That doesn't apply here.  Are you trying to say that Eastern is so far below North Oldham, Oldham, and Fern Creek that they shouldn't even try to compete?  That's a joke.  We could probably hold all of the regional tournaments on Friday night this year, most of the kids aren't good enough to place so they should just stay home.  We can run some round robin pools to determine placements and call it a night.

Ranger;

The state duals and regional duals as they are both called, are no different than the WCI, TCI, or Bourbon Bash.  They are just another tournament.  They may be tougher than some of these other tournaments but they are still just tournaments.  Neither are sanctioned by the KHSAA.

I'm not sure exactly when they started the state duals but I know they were not around when I wrestled.  To tell the truth I'm not even sure how many duals we won when I wrestled.  No one really cared about the dual meet score.  The important thing was the matchups between the better wrestlers.

What it comes down to is that I am not a fan of the State Duals. 

Why are we trying to make wrestling into a team sport? 

This is one of the greatest things about wrestling.  You are in control of your own fate, your teammates do not determine if you go to the state tourney, nor do they determine your placement at the state tourney.  You only have yourself to blame for a loss and yourself to cheer for a win.  When we finally take the individuality out of wrestling it will be no better than any other team sport.  Pitchers can still be the strikeout king, but place last in their division, running backs can lead the league in yardage but the team can still place last.  No different than you can win all your matches at the state duals but your team still finishes 16th.

Ranger;

The state duals and regional duals as they are both called, are no different than the WCI, TCI, or Bourbon Bash.  They are just another tournament.  They may be tougher than some of these other tournaments but they are still just tournaments.  Neither are sanctioned by the KHSAA.

I'm not sure exactly when they started the state duals but I know they were not around when I wrestled.  To tell the truth I'm not even sure how many duals we won when I wrestled.  No one really cared about the dual meet score.  The important thing was the matchups between the better wrestlers.

What it comes down to is that I am not a fan of the State Duals. 

Why are we trying to make wrestling into a team sport? 

This is one of the greatest things about wrestling.  You are in control of your own fate, your teammates do not determine if you go to the state tourney, nor do they determine your placement at the state tourney.  You only have yourself to blame for a loss and yourself to cheer for a win.  When we finally take the individuality out of wrestling it will be no better than any other team sport.  Pitchers can still be the strikeout king, but place last in their division, running backs can lead the league in yardage but the team can still place last.  No different than you can win all your matches at the state duals but your team still finishes 16th.

Fortunately, the majority of us aren't loners, and we like and feed off the atmosphere on a team.

Ranger;

The state duals and regional duals as they are both called, are no different than the WCI, TCI, or Bourbon Bash.  They are just another tournament.  They may be tougher than some of these other tournaments but they are still just tournaments.  Neither are sanctioned by the KHSAA.

I'm not sure exactly when they started the state duals but I know they were not around when I wrestled.  To tell the truth I'm not even sure how many duals we won when I wrestled.  No one really cared about the dual meet score.  The important thing was the matchups between the better wrestlers.

What it comes down to is that I am not a fan of the State Duals. 

Why are we trying to make wrestling into a team sport? 

This is one of the greatest things about wrestling.  You are in control of your own fate, your teammates do not determine if you go to the state tourney, nor do they determine your placement at the state tourney.  You only have yourself to blame for a loss and yourself to cheer for a win.  When we finally take the individuality out of wrestling it will be no better than any other team sport.  Pitchers can still be the strikeout king, but place last in their division, running backs can lead the league in yardage but the team can still place last.  No different than you can win all your matches at the state duals but your team still finishes 16th.

Not that I have ever been a big fan of the coaches association (a little research on here can prove that), but they evidently see the regional and state duals as something different than "any other tournament".  And other states are actually sanctioning the state dual championship and crowning the winner of that event as the team state champion. 

Sounds to me like your team wasn't too competitive so you never got a taste of the team aspect of wrestling.  While I do agree it is basically an individual sport, I still recall the moment when my team (as a head coach) won their first team trophy at a tournament.  We won individual medals (had at a number of tournaments), but that day we were a team and everyone contributed and knew their part (no matter how small) made a difference.

Fortunately, the majority of us aren't loners, and we like and feed off the atmosphere on a team.

It's more like people like to pass the blame off to someone else.  Blame your teammate for the loss.  It's never the individuals fault.  "If Joe Smo would not have dropped the ball we would not have lost"  (Fits baseball, basketball, and football.)

It's more like people like to pass the blame off to someone else.  Blame your teammate for the loss.  It's never the individuals fault.  "If Joe Smo would not have dropped the ball we would not have lost"  (Fits baseball, basketball, and football.)

B.S

Maybe that was the way it was in your day, but chalk that up to you/teammates/coach (probably you) thinking about only yourself.  You may blame others, a real team bolsters each other in success and defeat.

Sounds to me like your team wasn't too competitive so you never got a taste of the team aspect of wrestling. 

    We had much success back in my hayday, (and hopefully they will again soon, now that they have the opportunity again).  The team almost always finished higher than my own individual placement.  

    However few of us put any merit in the team trophy. It was fun bringing home a 1st or 2nd place team trophy but we reveled more in our individual medals. We realized that placing as high as you could in a tourney was more gratifying and it also helped the team, but the team took a backseat.  We cheered each other on and hoped for victory in everyones matches, but we never worried about scoring that extra point or two in a match to get the major or superior (no tech falls back then) to get the extra points.  Heck I would even bet most of us didn't know what a major or a superior was or that it scored the team more points.

    We had much success back in my hayday, (and hopefully they will again soon, now that they have the opportunity again).  The team almost always finished higher than my own individual placement. 

    However few of us put any merit in the team trophy. It was fun bringing home a 1st or 2nd place team trophy but we reveled more in our individual medals. We realized that placing as high as you could in a tourney was more gratifying and it also helped the team, but the team took a backseat.  We cheered each other on and hoped for victory in everyones matches, but we never worried about scoring that extra point or two in a match to get the major or superior (no tech falls back then) to get the extra points.  Heck I would even bet most of us didn't know what a major or a superior was or that it scored the team more points.

Well thank god wrestling has changed. 

One more point.  Look at the best teams in the state over the last 5 years.

Woodford

LaRue

Think they don't value the team concept at all?  All you have to do is look at LaRue's website where they tlak about their undefeated season.

Woodford's team chemistry stands on it's own.

B.S

Maybe that was the way it was in your day, but chalk that up to you/teammates/coach (probably you) thinking about only yourself.  You may blame others, a real team bolsters each other in success and defeat.

Truth is when I played those other team sports I always took the blame.  Mostly because it probably was my fault we lost, and if it wasn't I didn't mind if they blamed me.  There is always something more you could have done to help the team win.  

Wrestling changed all that.  I now did not have to worry about the team blaming me or me blaming myself for the teams lack of success.  I could now succeed on my own and cheer on my friends and teammates.  I could never blame them for my loss and they could not blame me for their loss. No more guilt for an error or missed play which may or may not have caused the team to loss the game.  

One more point.  Look at the best teams in the state over the last 5 years.

Woodford

LaRue

Think they don't value the team concept at all?  All you have to do is look at LaRue's website where they tlak about their undefeated season.

Woodford's team chemistry stands on it's own.

And exactly how many individual state champions have they developed?  I think the individuals have suffered for this hyper team concept at Larue.

Truth is when I played those other team sports I always took the blame.  Mostly because it probably was my fault we lost, and if it wasn't I didn't mind if they blamed me.  There is always something more you could have done to help the team win. 

Wrestling changed all that.  I now did not have to worry about the team blaming me or me blaming myself for the teams lack of success.  I could now succeed on my own and cheer on my friends and teammates.  I could never blame them for my loss and they could not blame me for their loss. No more guilt for an error or missed play which may or may not have caused the team to loss the game. 

Disagree.

My teammates harped on all of us making each other better.  You didn't work your mate in practice, your blame, your fault.  You didn't cheer loud and stand behind everyone, your blame, your fault.  Our outlook, which i will guarantee is shared by most teams in this state and others is that we were an individual link in one big chain.  Everyone had to pull their weight to succeed.  We did well indivudally because we were coached well, and honestly, more importantly, we worked each other to the fullest.

And exactly how many individual state champions have they developed?  I think the individuals have suffered for this hyper team concept at Larue.

Suffered?  Heck no.  Energized is more like it.  When a team wins a state championship, be it duals or individual everyone benefits.  I bet if you asked even pat Banks he'd agree

53- Woodford

8- LaRue

OK as I think I have mentioned before in a post way back.  I was part of a state championship team.  I was extremely young but still part of the team when it happened.  I would gladly turn in my spot on that chapionship team for an individual state title. 

I believe if you asked Mr Banks deep down he would agree.  (No disrespect Mr. Banks, as you know I believed you to be one of the greatest wrestlers to come out of KY)

And exactly how many individual state champions have they developed?  I think the individuals have suffered for this hyper team concept at Larue.

Olympic wish beat me to it.  I won't even touch Woodford; no need.  Larue has exactly 8 individual titles.  And that's with a team that has only existed since 1990.  I think a lot of teams would like to have 8 individual state titles.  Like all of the Lexington schools (except Henry Clay), Harrison County, PRP, and Johnson Central to name a few.  And exactly how does a "team" focus keep individuals from winning?

Olympic wish beat me to it.  I won't even touch Woodford; no need.  Larue has exactly 8 individual titles.  And that's with a team that has only existed since 1990.  I think a lot of teams would like to have 8 individual state titles.  Like all of the Lexington schools (except Henry Clay), Harrison County, PRP, and Johnson Central to name a few.  And exactly how does a "team" focus keep individuals from winning?

The woodford # i knew off the top of my head, had to look up laRue.

It doesn't.  And if grapp would trade in that state team title.  Sorry man.  You'd be about the only one, ever I think.

It just hit me how far we are off topic (maybe that is a good thing), but I'll use my personal experience to argue against you grappler.  I came up short my senior year.  Probably should have been going for my 3rd title (if I didn't have to make weight and broken bones didn't impact my wrestling ability).  But I came up short again.  And to this day one of the first things I think about is how my team's 4th place finish (tied for the highest ever I think) would have been higher if I hadn't choked.  I let my team down.  But my team picked me up and helped me roar back for a 3rd place finish.

Exactly my point Ranger.  Your team picked you up, they didn't do it for the team they did it because they wanted you to succeed.

I have never mentioned that having a team behind you does not help.  It gives you people in your corner to cheer you on, and help pick you up when your are down. 

As for how it has hindered them.  When an individual takes on the team concept he can rise and fall with his team.  When the team has fallen short of their goal in a tourney this falls to those who still must wrestle.  Ie The finalists and or semi finalists.  When the depression (I know this is a strong word, but can't think of another word because I am so dramatic), of not accomplishing the team goals, outweigh the high or adrenaline rush of working toward your individual goal, is when it becomes a hindrance to the individual. 

Exactly my point Ranger.  Your team picked you up, they didn't do it for the team they did it because they wanted you to succeed.

I have never mentioned that having a team behind you does not help.  It gives you people in your corner to cheer you on, and help pick you up when your are down. 

As for how it has hindered them.  When an individual takes on the team concept he can rise and fall with his team.  When the team has fallen short of their goal in a tourney this falls to those who still must wrestle.  Ie The finalists and or semi finalists.  When the depression (I know this is a strong word, but can't think of another word because I am so dramatic), of not accomplishing the team goals, outweigh the high or adrenaline rush of working toward your individual goal, is when it becomes a hindrance to the individual. 

Not exactly.  I can still here the words "the team needs you".  We had just gone through a tough battle with Woodford and Sheldon Clark in the region and thought we had a shot to compete for the state title.  I completely agree with you on the rise and fall of a team impacting individuals.  But it works both ways.  That adrenaline can help a kid pull the upset as well as another to choke.

    OK guys I think maybe I should try and smooth things out here.  Since GOO (I like this name, I think that is what I'm gonna call you from now on) was influenced by my rants of the state duals.

    His one year of spending time with me every day has rubbed off on him.  It is my fault for his distaste for the state duals and dual meets.  His comment of trading in his team state title came from me.  I have made the statement that I would trade in my state runner up team title for an individual state title or even runner up, and I convinced him of the same thing. It was also my point that we didn't know the points needed to win duals.

    I do know the importance of a team.  This is where I probably did not explain to him well enough.  Team are extremely important for the morale of wrestlers.  Without a team it is very difficult for individuals to push themselves farther and harder.  There is no one to pick them up when they are down. (IE Golsby).

    My distaste for the state duals comes from when I was coaching at Campbell Co. Many of the other coaches would switch their wrestlers around in wt. classes just trying to win a dual.  While I was there we did not do this.  We almost always kept everyone at the same wt. class the entire tournament, barring an injury, or trying to get a JV wrestler a match.  It has gotten so bad that there had to be a rule made for who had to send their wrestler to the score table 1st.  To me this is where I disagree.  If a wrestler has earned his spot on the varsity, why should he give it up to the wrestler below him?  I know the arguments, but I don't agree with them. 

    Maybe things have changed since I left Campbell 9 years ago. But at that time Coach Bankemper believed the same way.  We also never told the kids about scoring the extra points for majors or superiors then later tech falls.  Our concern was winning the match then the team score will fall into place.  WIN then PIN.

    We lost the 1990 state duals because our HWT thought he had to pin Washington to win the dual.  He rushed a pin in the 1st period and gave up 5 points then had to make a come back.  He had pinned Washington every other time they met, but because of going for the pin early he was unable to pin him this time.  That same year when everyone lost in the semifinals (Except Zinga) The team rallied behind Wilkins when he won a match to get him to the placement round.  It was the turning point and sparked the final round come back to win the team title.

Once again blame this one on me. I corrupted him on this one.

Good explanation bulldog.  I would use the following analogy to calm your (and others) distaste for duals.  You don't hate football just because some teams run the option offense (boring).  A teams strategy shouldn't affect the way you look at an entire competition.  I don't really like all of the moving around either.  My coach never considered it.  But there are instances where it makes sense.  Coach B doesn't move guys around much, although he will adjust (occasionally) if the opposing coach changes his lineup.

Funny you use football.  I don't like football for many reasons. 

But I do understand your analogy.  It just seems the switching wt. classes has become the rule instead of the acception any more.

Funny you use football.  I don't like football for many reasons. 

But I do understand your analogy.  It just seems the switching wt. classes has become the rule instead of the acception any more.

Yeah, it makes it more interesting.  A little gamesmanship and strategy.

OK coach for you this will be my last reply on this subject.

    What I see when coach moves a 160 up to 171 to match up better with a team, is a coach that has no faith in their current 171.  If I were the one being moved out I would do it because the coach asked me to, but I would be insulted.

    Basically what you are telling this wrestler is that you (The coach) have little or no faith in their ability to win the match.  If it is a move up to match up instead of a forfeit is another story. 

    People view things differently.  Just put yourself in this kids shoes who has to give up his spot.  Yeah I know he is doing it for the team, but it still does not make you feel good about it. 

    We had much success back in my hayday, (and hopefully they will again soon, now that they have the opportunity again).  The team almost always finished higher than my own individual placement.  

    However few of us put any merit in the team trophy. It was fun bringing home a 1st or 2nd place team trophy but we reveled more in our individual medals. We realized that placing as high as you could in a tourney was more gratifying and it also helped the team, but the team took a backseat.  We cheered each other on and hoped for victory in everyones matches, but we never worried about scoring that extra point or two in a match to get the major or superior (no tech falls back then) to get the extra points.  Heck I would even bet most of us didn't know what a major or a superior was or that it scored the team more points.

Wow, this thread just blew up...i love it....

It sounds like GOO is a close relative to schmegal from lord of the rings, instead of obsessing over the ring, "my precious, precious medal...."

Olympic_wish, you are so right.  That team atmosphere is important.  GOO, for a looooongggg time you have been saying on here that it's an individual sport, not a team sport.  That may be your opinion, and that's fine....but if that were most people's opinions, we wouldn't keep team scores at state....we wouldn't have dual meets.  As a wrestler and as a coach, my most fondest memories are of team accomplishments.  I watched a m.s. dual meet tournament years ago where a team was getting SMOKED by larue, and those kids were up and cheering like you can't imagine for their team mates to not get pinned.  They had a great team experience.  That's what it's all about, this sport should be fun for the kids.

OK coach for you this will be my last reply on this subject.

     What I see when coach moves a 160 up to 171 to match up better with a team, is a coach that has no faith in their current 171.  If I were the one being moved out I would do it because the coach asked me to, but I would be insulted.

     Basically what you are telling this wrestler is that you (The coach) have little or no faith in their ability to win the match.  If it is a move up to match up instead of a forfeit is another story. 

     People view things differently.  Just put yourself in this kids shoes who has to give up his spot.  Yeah I know he is doing it for the team, but it still does not make you feel good about it. 

Most good coaches are sensitive to a kid's ego.  They're not going to tell a kid...you suck, we need to bump you up, etc....  I don't think this hurts a kid's feelings that much, it is very much strategic to move kids around and from the kids persepective, they probably just want to win the dual meet.  Most kids feel very loyal towards their team, and don't get insulted when a coach tells them "I'm going to bump you up because I think you can beat their BIGGER kid, and i think we will score more team points if things work out"

Most good coaches are sensitive to a kid's ego.  They're not going to tell a kid...you suck, we need to bump you up, etc....  I don't think this hurts a kid's feelings that much, it is very much strategic to move kids around and from the kids persepective, they probably just want to win the dual meet.  Most kids feel very loyal towards their team, and don't get insulted when a coach tells them "I'm going to bump you up because I think you can beat their BIGGER kid, and i think we will score more team points if things work out"

    I will say this.  My son is not feeling real good about himself right now.  He was told that this weekend at the middle school state duals he will bump up to 124 and the 124 will move down to 117 depending on the tougher matches.  He will get the weaker of the two.

    I found this out by accident, I overheard him talking to one of his friends last night how he feels inferior (my words not his), he used your highlighted example. He will never complain to his coach, and will do whatever he is asked to do.  I also will not question the coach as a parent.  If they are trying to win each dual this is probably the correct move to make, since winning the dual is what it's all about.

BL - not trying to dwell on a sore subject, but by chance did they both wrestle off for the 117 spot and your son lost?  If so, maybe that would make sense from a coaching perspective...but i see your point, and that does stink.  Hope it doesn't turn your son against the sport, especially at the m.s. level.  H.S., this happens all the time, we may not like it but to quote IPEA - "it's not a sport for the meek".  A kid bumps into your spot, your spot is gone.  If the coach & team want to win a dual, they will swap their lineup around for the whatever's best for the team.  That's just how it goes.

No they have not wrestled off.  However my son would probably lose if they did.  He would then be the 124 varsity, they are the best two at those weights.  The situation still would not change, I don't have a problem with it.  I'm sure he will get over it.  If it is the worst thing that ever hapens to him in his life he will be a happy man. 

All coaches have their reasons for attending or not attending regional duals.  Whatever their reasons, they are just trying to do what is best for their kids & team.  I know personally at Doss, we don't have a chance to be top 2 at our regional dual meet.  We have some kids hurt & are missing a few weight classes.  However, I choose to attend the regional duals because I am using it as a chance to secure regional seeds for my kids at the regional championship.  Even though we may see the teams in our region several times, with the way the weight descent plan is, many of my kids were not competing at their current weight until recently.  Since regional seedings in our region are based on your regional winning % in your weight class in addition to who you have beaten that will competing in that same weight class, even though I know we won't make state duals, I choose to attend the regional duals.  So in hindsight, whether you like it or not, whatever reason Eastern had for not attending the Region 5 duals, I'm sure the coach was doing what he thought was best for his team. 

    Now, as far as bumping kids around weight classes, I will do that if I feel it will create a better match up for my kids or gives us a chance to win a dual meet.  I will not swap kids & move one kid up & one kid down just because one may be better than the other.  I will move (for example) my 135 to 140 & my 140 to 145, if the other team does not have a 135, but does have a 140 & 145.  Against regional opponents, I do not bump unless the other team does not have a wrestler given weight class & we do.  For example, if we have a 135 & they don't, but they have a 140 & we don't, I will move my 135 up. 

    Finally for GOO, you stated that Ranger's team picked him up because they wanted him to succeed & they didn't do it for the team.  I thought that was what a team is supposed to be, a collective group of individuals who push each other to be the best they can be & support each other no matter the outcome or how many of you there are.  So I guess I'm saying they really did do it for the team since her was a part of that team concept.  By the way, BL, Ranger, GOO, PP, etc. all very good points you have previously stated.  Even though this thread, like many others, has drifted off course from its original intent, I didn't mind this one so much because there were many good points & ways to look at the team/individual concept brought to the forefront.  None of them are right or wrong, it just depends on your individual preference.