Ranger 123,

    I would like to get your opinion or anyone else's on seeding the state tournament.  I have always thought that the top 4 kids as long as they win their regions should be seeded.  This would allow the 1 and 2 kids  the opportunity to run out of the tunnel Saturday night instead of facing off Friday or Saturday morning.  Which then makes the finals somewhat of a scrimmage.  For example putting Elam and Bradbury on the same side clearly takes some of the great buildup away from the 103 finals.  Another ex. two years ago at 112 you have Coty Lewis 1, Luna 2, and Puckett 3, all on the same side while Josh Johnson walks to the finals.  "No disrespect to Josh" Every year at this time grumbling starts about good and bad draws.  Don't get me wrong I am a firm believer in you have got to beat them sooner or later.  But as far as the venue has come from our old days at Atherton it should be the two best kids walking out at the end.  Thank you for your time.

Sounds great but simply not pratical. For example, 135 has 6 kids all evenly matched; Brown, Davis, Sloan, Miller, Barton, Poulton ( no particular order). Sloan hasn't wrestled any of the other 5, therefore, how could he be fairly seeded? 119 has 3 kids, Martin, Zarth, Carr all evenly matched. 125 is the same with many kids capable of winning. None of them should be ranked above the other, IMO. If the state were going to start seeding, they would have to seed all weights, not just selected weights such as 103 where two dominant wrestlers are present.

One way to decrease the likelihood of 2 dominant kids on the same side is to switch back to district and regionals. One would double their chances of meeting the dominant wrestler in the regions thereby allowing them to split at state. This won't happen due to the financial aspects of renting the convention center, a 32 man bracket with lots of paying parents is needed.

Sorry Ranger, I hope I didn't steal any thunder. Your opinion may be different than mine.

I don't think it would be too difficult to seed the eight region winners.  If a highly ranked wrestler is not the region winner then he will be on the opposite side of his regions winner anyway. 

How would you rank 135? Be specific.

We go through this every year and we come up with the same solution.  However, I think this will work and it has been brought up at the coaches meeting a few years ago when they got this knuckle head idea of having a 32 man bracket.

Hold 4 state seeding tournaments throughout the season, demographically located.  If you want to be considered a seed you must attend at least one of the four tournaments.  This will take care of head to head and common opponent in the realm of criteria.  For ex: you could make the Dragon and the WCI two of the four tournaments a "seeder".  other criteria,  returning state champ, placer or current region champ.  It can be done.  

The other thing I think should be done is the region power rankings giving wild cards to the state tournament.  This is accomplished by the number of returning placewinners in a given weight class.  For ex: If region 15 has the most returning placewinners than any other region, they will get X# of wildcards.  and 2nd most gets x# of wildcards.  The region will determine what weight classes gets the wildcards.  Who will represent the region most effectively.  Yes this will create rat tails but you stand a chance of getting better kids at the state tournament without penalizing the weaker regions.

Actually you must compete in at least 2 of the 4, this should cover the crossover. Either way, work out the bugs and it should be ok.

I don't think it would be too difficult to seed the eight region winners.  If a highly ranked wrestler is not the region winner then he will be on the opposite side of his regions winner anyway. 

Here is the problem.  There is no rankings in KHSAA wrestling.  No disrespect to ranger I think he does a great job, but they are not official, nor is their an unbiased formula to find out who is the top wrestler.

If you asked 10 people the top wrestlers you would probably get 10 different answers in each wt. class.  

IPEA has it correct.  If we had another tourney in between region and state and had a 16 man bracket with only 4 champions it would increase the chances of the best two meeting in the finals.

(OH WHERE OH WHERE HAS MY SPELL CHECK GONE, OH WHERE OH WHERE CAN IT BE)

Actually you must compete in at least 2 of the 4, this should cover the crossover. Either way, work out the bugs and it should be ok.

You cannot expect teams to attend certain tourneys.  There are a few times when a small team has an exceptional kid on their team, but the rest of the team is weak.  Why would these coaches send theri team to one of these tourneys?  Most of these teams also only have one coach and could not split them.  You also have tourney costs and travel costs. 

I would agree, but $$$ makes that hairbrained decision.  

32 man bracket does 3 things  

1. brings in the cash

2. lets below average wrestlers qualify, thus bringing down the integrity of the state tournament, I believe there are qualifiers there that wouldn't place in the middle school tournament.  

3. lets stronger regions have shot at the title (more qualifiers)

Grappler of Old,

Yes you can make them attend certain tourneys, make it procedure.  It doesn't have to be a stand alone tourney.  You could take the team, good or not.  Make the Dragon a "seeder" and WCI and a couple of others.  Not a big deal.  Christian Co.  State Duals.  Raider Rumble.

How would you rank 135? Be specific.

The eight region winners at 135 lbs are (in order of rangers rankings):

1 Matt Miller

2 Dusty Brown

3 Zach Poulton

4 Justin Davis

5 Matt Slone

6 Luke Ervin

7 Cody Guiler

8 Rashaun Graham

only seed the region winners, then everyone else falls into place using the standard draw. 

If you asked 10 people the top wrestlers you would probably get 10 different answers in each wt. class.  

Are you telling me that 10 people couldn't come to an agreement as to which wrestler should be seeded 1st - 8th out of 8 kids? :?

There is no way yoy can make a regular season tournament a requirement.  Why should Ryle, South Oldham, Woodford Co., and Christian Co. get to hold these tourneys?  I know they are established tourneys, but if you want a "seeder" tourney then it would need to be a revolving tourney much like the region already is.  

I still don't see a coach sending their team if they are weak to one of these tourneys just for one kid.

Grapplehead, How would you factor in the weight descent plan. If a stud is planning to go to a certain weight but isn't allowed until after the 4 tournaments have been completed, how would you factor in that situation? Several kids don't make weight until the very end of the season, often times these are the very competitive wrestlers.

The other solution is go back to 3 qualifying tournaments like the old days, district then regions then semi-state. Only the top 8 would attend the one day state meet. Chances are much better the studs would be separate.

The eight region winners at 135 lbs are (in order of rangers rankings):

1 Matt Miller

2 Dusty Brown

3 Zach Poulton

4 Justin Davis

5 Matt Slone

6 Luke Ervin

7 Cody Guiler

8 Rashaun Graham

only seed the region winners, then everyone else falls into place using the standard draw.  Are you telling me that 10 people couldn't come to an agreement as to which wrestler should be seeded 1st - 8th out of 8 kids? :?

Miller is undefeated at 135 as is Sloan but you have them on the same side of the bracket. So, the only 2 undefeated guys, or objective studs by record, are on the same side. Not quite fair the way I see it.

Miller is undefeated at 135 as is Sloan but you have them on the same side of the bracket. So, the only 2 undefeated guys, or objective studs by record, are on the same side. Not quite fair the way I see it.

I said that it was in order of rangers rankings.  Use that as a starting point to make your argument.  that is the kind of information that would be presented at a seeding meeting.  Based on that info they might make Sloan 1 and Miller 2. I don't know.  I don't have a dog in that fight.  My teams 135 placed 2nd, he would fall into place according to the standard draw based on the seeding that our number 1 guy gets, even though he is ranked 7th (according to Ranger).  Three of the region winners are ranked below him, but he still doesn't get seeded because he didn't win the region.

I don't have a dog either, I am just arguing for the hell of it. I am just trying to illustrate the difficulties in one weight group, just imagine doing all 14 with emotional coaches present. Why should Sloan get the number 1 or 2 spot when he never wrestled any of the other top 5 kids? Sure he is undefeated, but maybe he would lose to all of the top 5 guys??? Another example would be 119. No way would I want to decide the number one and two between Martin, Zarth and Carr. I don't like the random draw but I dont like paying taxes either.  I just don't see a practical way around it. No one has addressed the weight descent issue.

I also heard Ranger can be bought for the right price! 

I pinned em all,

shouldn't you be at work? 

Grappler,  I was giving examples of established tournaments, they just happen to be the biggest tournaments.  Think about it most of the teams go to one, some or all of these tournaments.  They are going anyway regardless if their team sucks or not.  There are a bunch of crappy teams at WCI and South.  If they aren't there for the seed who cares.

I haven't tackled the weight problem yet. Although all of the tourneys listed were after xmas.  If he isn't down to weight by then, he shouldn't wrestle or be on a losing football team so he can start sooner.

I am just throwing options out there, thats why we are debating it. 

The state will like this idea about as much as they like the 1 day 8 man bracket.  Great competition, but no $. 

By the way, I love to pay taxes IPEA.  I can't wait for Election time.  Does anyone want to buy my house, I won't be able to afford anything else.

On a side note, the NCAA has a comittee for seeding.  Coaches are not involved.  So if you took the top 8 region champs and seeded them, it would be done by comittee not coaches.  Meeting would be short and to the point, no arguement because they would not be there. 

However, we are in KY.  I am the Boar's Nest would have something to do with comittee selection.

My vote would be to restablish districts, regions, and state.  Then the 16 man bracket is back.

I am working, I just take alot of breaks.

Seeding is impossible. Random draw is fair, afterall it is random. We all know, anyone can beat anyone during the state meet. Undefeated number ones fall all of the time. Seeding will not decide the state champ, it will only determine 2nd and 3rd place.

Seeding will not decide the state champ, it will only determine 2nd and 3rd place.

nice quote, can I stea..I mean use that.

Another example, look at the clowns arguing about the Middle School state championship and suggesting Larue County is cheating. Absurd! Can you imagine the cheating alligations which would occur if seeding criteria were developed.

nice quote, can I stea..I mean use that.

You can use that quote, however, you must always reference me when using it!

That is a good quote.  As I mentioned before, we argue this every year and never get anywhere like now.  I just wasted my own time. 

Another example, look at the clowns arguing about the Middle School state championship and suggesting Larue County is cheating. Absurd! Can you imagine the cheating alligations which would occur if seeding criteria were developed.

Like somebody else said, have a seeding committee

So if you took the top 8 region champs and seeded them, it would be done by comittee not coaches.  Meeting would be short and to the point, no arguement because they would not be there. 

A seeding committee as long as Larue County isn't involved, afterall, Johnson County thinks they are cheating, lol!!!!!!

Every tournament throughout the year has a seeding meeting.  Regardless of how many studs are in a weight.  I have never seen a tournament cancelled because they couldn't figure out where to seed the kids.  The Monday before state have a coaches meeting or a panel to seed each weight.  I understand rankings are opinion but like the Hall of Fame everyone comes together and pleads their case.  Also my theory for the top four seeds you also have to win your region.  ex. Jake Wempe lost in regional at 125 was ranked in the top four so he would be excluded from a top four ranking.

I agree that seeding can be done.  It is done in many other states that have more wrestlers than KY and with kids that never wrestle each other all year.  You have a committee, establish criteria, each person gets a vote, what is so difficult about it??  The champ will be the champ either way however in the promotion of the sport, the more build up and excitement that can be created to have the 2 best meet in the finals under the lights the better off for KY wrestling.

     I don't like the idea of seeding the state tourney.  As a coach for over 20 years I have seen my share of seeding meeting.  I can't imagine what one with all the coaches of the state involved.  They can't even agree on what time weigh ins should be.

     This is the most fair way of holding a state tourney.  I can just imagine the cries of foul play if it was seeded.  (Heck I even here it from time to time about the draws. As if someone would cheat on the draw picks)  If a kid (remember these are kids) gets a bad draw and he looses to the state champion in the semi's or quarters he can just chalk it up to bad luck.  (As I did my Jr. and Sr. year).  If we seed the tourney then the kid, coach, parent, grandparent, girlfreind, and all his teammates will say "They seeded it wrong and I should have been the second seed" ect. ect. 

     The state tourney is not about putting on a good show for the spectators in the finals.  It's about the wrestlers finaly benifitting from their hard work all year.  It's also about learning about sacrifice and defeat, and in some cases learning to take things in stride when they don't go your way (Bad call, or bad draws).  These are all the things they will have to face in real life when they become adults.  I know I am a better person because of wrestling, and my coach.  I learned some hard lessons from both.  Mostly life is not fair and roll with the punches. 

    I hope that I have been able to pass these things on to my wrestlers. 

    The state tourney is not about putting on a good show for the spectators in the finals.  It's about the wrestlers finaly benifitting from their hard work all year.  It's also about learning about sacrifice and defeat, and in some cases learning to take things in stride when they don't go your way (Bad call, or bad draws).  These are all the things they will have to face in real life when they become adults.  I know I am a better person because of wrestling, and my coach.  I learned some hard lessons from both.  Mostly life is not fair and roll with the punches. 

    I hope that I have been able to pass these things on to my wrestlers. 

I completely agree coach,  the lessons learned on the mat and in the practice room will be with these young men for the rest of their lives.

Seeding would be nice, but just not very practical.  Even with the suggested "pre-state" regular season tournaments, the seedable wrestlers still wouldn't wrestle everyone who might be seeded.  Even if it were mandatory to compete in 2 of 4 designated regular season tournaments, teams like Wayne County would probably stay and compete in tournaments closer to their region like the WCI, etc.  Whereas a team like Union County would probably compete in a tournament in the Eastern 1/2 of the state and maybe one in Louisville like the Dragon.  Once again, they still wouldn't see each other.  In addition, the seeding procedure at those suggested tournaments would be a nightmare.  If you think coaches argue too much at regular season tournaments about getting a 1 or 2 seed or getting a 3 or 4 seed, just imagine what would happen now if the actual outcome of regular season tournaments played a factor into a possible state seed.  The random draw, although hated by many, is fair to all teams.  If you did seed the 8 regional winners and draw in the rest, what would happen in the case like last year with the 103, 112 & 145 weight classes where the best 2 in the state & the 2 state finalists are actually in the same region?  Would you keep the part of the random draw where the 1st & 2nd place finishers from each region are drawn in on opposite sides of the bracket?

How about this idea...

Make it an open tournament, random draw, like the youth state or FS states.  Half of the entries don't belong anyway, whats another 100 kids?

Just kidding, I am being a smart a*%!

I think Kentucky should go back to three post season tournaments.  Keep the regions as they are or redraw them as appropriate.  Top 4 from region still advance but to a sectional instead.  Each region would combine with another region for the sectional.  #1 from one region would wrestle #4 from the other region and so on with the top 4 qualifying for state.  State would then be a 16 man bracket.  Seed the four sectional champs and put each of the second placers on the opposite side of the bracket.

This would give kids the same opportunity to advance in the post season for accomplishment purposes.  It would make state a better tournament and a better sense of accomplishment for making it.  It would also tend to keep the two best wrestlers on the opposite side of the bracket.

At the same time I think KHSAA should sanction the dual meet tournament and include it on the same weekend as the individual state.  This would bring in any loss of revenue from changing to a 16 man bracket.  The most any one kid would wrestle is 11 matches as opposed to the 8 possible now.

WOW

Great idea, and good business sense. 

I nominate coachJ as head of the KWCA and put him on the board of controls for KHSAA

all in favor say AYE

aye!  Makes sense to me.

There was 3 tournaments back in the hey day.  District, Region, semi state and state as IPEA suggested. That only lasted 2 years.  State was 1 day, 8 man bracket.  When I was an puny underclassman, I qualified 2nd behind the eventual state champion. I drew a returning State Champ 1st round, if I had one, I would have had another returning State Champ in the Semis and then to the finals to the guy who had beaten me in the finals of all 3 tournaments. That was a meat grinder. 

KHSAA would never go for it, neither would the teams in tougher regions especially as they combined.  They would never win a title with 6 qualifiers.  About 6 or 7 years ago, 6 of the top ten teams came out of one region, but no one could win it because, a team came out of weak region with a ton of qualifiers.

I think most know my opinion on this.  Just a cop out to say it would be too hard to seed it.  Plus, I have a perfect solution.  I'll seed it.  Then when coaches don't send in their meet results their kids will likely not get seeded by me.

I think most know my opinion on this.  Just a cop out to say it would be too hard to seed it.  Plus, I have a perfect solution.  I'll seed it.  Then when coaches don't send in their meet results their kids will likely not get seeded by me.

All Hail king ranger.  All hail king ranger.  :? :evil:

Those coaches that don't send in their results probably don't care about seeding anyway. 

I do however kind of remember the rules that another state uses. 

Something like: 

1. must be regional winner

2. must be a returning state placer

3. State champs seeded highest

4. State placers seeded according to placement.

5. Same weight placers trump those from another wt. class.

6. Averyone else is blind draw. (I would however keep same region placers seperated until quarters)

I could go for this.  Absolutely no bias or human error in this formula.

grappler - I will take this into consideration when I seed the tournament next season.

OK just for fun.

As if you don't have anything better to do.

What would your seeds be ranger. How would your brackets look if you actually were able to seed the tourney.

You have probably already done this haven't you? :wink:

OK just for fun.

As if you don't have anything better to do.

What would your seeds be ranger. How would your brackets look if you actually were able to seed the tourney.

You have probably already done this haven't you? :wink:

No, I haven't.  Unless you count the weekly rankings as my "seeding".  It would require the coaches to buy into the system and cooperate and submit results.  If a coach doesn't want to be a part of the process that's fine.  His kids don't get seeded and we can point the finger right back at him when someone doesn't get the right draw.

Based on the information I have and only seeding the region champs (in order 1-8)...

103 Elam, Bradbury, Badgett, Troxell, Palmer, Brown, Paden, South

112 Sullivan, Smith, Osborne, Carpenter-Fraser, Wiexler, Terry, Thomas, Tucker

119 Carr, Martin, Daniels, Miller, Supe, Lundy, Stewart, Brenneman

125 Zeppa, Bontrager, Vinsant, Murphy, Parks, Norberry, Harper, Colston

130 Johnson, Ervin, Ohlman, Jude, Morlatt, Aylor, Mills, Lewis

135 Miller, Slone, Brown, Poulton, Davis, Ervin, Graham, Guiler

140 Peace, Thomas, Mitchell, Davis, Grimm, Cahill, Eberle, Kiper

145 Courtney, Ervin, Griffith, Freeman, McNeely, Willbanks, Pile, Fields

152 Ashbrook, Webb, Vaughn, Choate, Mann, Armstrong, Frazier, Porter

160 Ervin, Sheehan, Walls, Pickett, Schneider, Pitcher, Brim, Stepp

171 Reid, Hitchings, Lasseigne, Newsome, Stafford, Burke, Gardner, Meads

189 Kelly, Jones, Houchens, Wright, Hogben, Tennyson, Griggs, French

215 Green, Nickel, Dials, Chiba, Benson, Frost, Griggs, Messina

285 Fuller, Bailey, Payne, Gray, Whiting, Rhinestine, Bell, McKinney

That only took about 15 minutes and didn't require any pulling of teeth.

I think Kentucky should go back to three post season tournaments.  Keep the regions as they are or redraw them as appropriate.  Top 4 from region still advance but to a sectional instead.  Each region would combine with another region for the sectional.  #1 from one region would wrestle #4 from the other region and so on with the top 4 qualifying for state.  State would then be a 16 man bracket.  Seed the four sectional champs and put each of the second placers on the opposite side of the bracket.

This would give kids the same opportunity to advance in the post season for accomplishment purposes.  It would make state a better tournament and a better sense of accomplishment for making it.  It would also tend to keep the two best wrestlers on the opposite side of the bracket.

At the same time I think KHSAA should sanction the dual meet tournament and include it on the same weekend as the individual state.  This would bring in any loss of revenue from changing to a 16 man bracket.  The most any one kid would wrestle is 11 matches as opposed to the 8 possible now.

Based on your suggestion, if region 4 and region 6 were to advance to a sectional, the 140 weight class would end up with 5 of the top 6 ranked wrestlers, which means that one goes home without a chance at state.  No matter how you cut it, a random draw will result in random selections of talent.  At the end of the day, I think coaches can be mature enough to work through a ranking session and more fairly distribute the talent.  I realize we are interested in a more competitive title match, but also it is about the kids getting a chance to reach the title match without having to wrestle a title match in a preliminary.  This results in a subpar wrestler reaching the final because of the luck of the draw.  Doesn't seem fair or reasonable in my view.  Do other states have this same problem?

Yes if that was the case then one of the top 6 wouldn't get to go however if you get 5th in the sectional that means you lost twice.  Yes I know the 4th place finisher loses twice too but not everybody can go to state.  You have to draw the line somewhere.  No matter how you align the schools there will be some kids that don't make it.  There is not one bracket this year where the top 32 kids all made it.  Even if Ranger's rankings were 100% correct, instead of his average of 98.5493% correct, there would be almost no chance that everybody in the top 32 would qualify.

With the number of programs in Kentucky I am willing to bet that there are some weight classes where half of the kids or more qualify for state.  Although it gives a lot of kids a sense of accomplishment it also at the same time takes away the value of that accomplishment.  That

However if you went with seeding tournements throughout the year it would give teams like wayne and Sheldon Clark more reasons to wrestle in state instead of wrestling in virginia all the time.

However if you went with seeding tournements throughout the year it would give teams like wayne and Sheldon Clark more reasons to wrestle in state instead of wrestling in virginia all the time.

You would also increase their travel costs and put more pressure on their team.

What is wrong with them wrestling out of state?  Nky teams do it all the time for the same reason, less travel and better competition.

Besides...what's wrong with THREE glorious days of wrestling!!!  This is the best time of the year...lets soak it up!

Good luck to everyone, may there be no serious injuries, good officiating, and lots of great wrestling!!

Out of state competition better prepares you for instate competition in these more wrestling powerhouse states.