Round 1

150 of the 224 matches were either won by fall, TF or default.  That is 67% were by Fall

2 weight classes had Falls or TF's in 15 of the 16 weights.

20 of the remaining were a MD, about a dozen had a margin of victory by 7 points.

Round 2

17 of the 56 matches to 140lbs resulted Falls or TF's  30%

12  of the 56 were MD's  21 %

Total  50% of the 2nd round matches were either Fall or TF

oops! 

50% were by Fall, TF or MD

any thoughts on this topic other than a 32 man bracket is watering down the tournament.  The state was weak enough as a 16 man bracket.  Loss of integrity.   

I agree!!  Never been a fan of this 32 man bracket.  Not to mention three days is too long.

I understand how a lot of you feel about the 32 man bracket. I for one like it because I like the tournamnent being 3 days, I like to see more wrestlers from all over the state. It's a championship and an event to close the season. It's an event that will motivate some of those 3rd and 4th qualifiers to work harder next year. As for your statistics there were also some upsets; and some of the 3rd and 4th place qualifiers had close matches with only one point separating the winner from the loser after three periods. So those guys did deserve to be there.

If you drop the number of qualifiers in the end there will just be less people that care about the championship. The way it is now the 3rd and 4th place qualifiers get an chance up close to see what it takes to make it to the top. I think in the long run that will encourage more kids to work harder.

I think its a long three days too but I love it!

Your statistics are interesting for the 1st two rounds, I'll reserve judgement till we can compare to the next few rounds.

I understand there are lots of mismatches but I think you could also argue theres some integrity in this tourney by giving the 3rd and 4th place seeds a chance to pull the upset against kids from all corners of the state who may be there because of a weak region.

Another aspect is alot of the kids getting pinned yesterday are going to be the placers in the next few years because of the motivation they will develop as a participant at state this year.

Personally, I like the 32 man bracket. I have no interest in returning to the "old days" of wrestling in the archaic Atherton gym. No particular system is perfect however, one must agree this is better than a 1 day, 8 man bracket state tournament which occurred in the late 80's. The crowd was much smaller and the championship ambiance simply wasn't present. Furthermore, if the 32 man bracket didn't exist, we would not have been able to see 5 number one seed upsets in the first round.

Let's try to rephrase the word "seeds".  There are no seeds in the tournament.  Some may be considered upsets, others not.  Even though Lewis was a #1, I would not have considered that an upset.  Without another qualifier in place, it is hard to determine the upset.  However, I would consider most of 4 vs 1's an upset.  I would not consider a 2-3,3-2 an upset. 

My point, There should not be that many pins in the 1st round of the state tournament.  If the 2nd round were the 1st round, the Fall rate is almost 40% less. 

2. Qualifying should be tougher, that will give the kids something to shoot for.  Some just have to weigh in.

3. There are 75 schools represented, 448 wrestler. Thus if everyone was full, that would be 1050 wrestlers, which theres not.  My guess is that more than 1/2 of the state's varsity wrestlers qualified for the state tournament. 

4.  I like the 32 man because, it brings more parity to the team title.   

Let's try to rephrase the word "seeds".  There are no seeds in the tournament.  Some may be considered upsets, others not.  Even though Lewis was a #1, I would not have considered that an upset.  Without another qualifier in place, it is hard to determine the upset.  However, I would consider most of 4 vs 1's an upset.  I would not consider a 2-3,3-2 an upset. 

My point, There should not be that many pins in the 1st round of the state tournament.  If the 2nd round were the 1st round, the Fall rate is almost 40% less. 

2. Qualifying should be tougher, that will give the kids something to shoot for.  Some just have to weigh in.

3. There are 75 schools represented, 448 wrestler. Thus if everyone was full, that would be 1050 wrestlers, which theres not.  My guess is that more than 1/2 of the state's varsity wrestlers qualified for the state tournament. 

4.  I like the 32 man because, it brings more parity to the team title.   

For the sake of discussion and because I'm sitting at my desk instead of watching wrestling where I would rather be:

The difficulty in qualifying is all relative to the individual. Lets face it KY wrestling doesnt have the level of difficulty of other states that it is many times compared to for many reasons. So for a large percentage of kids in KY to qualify for state in a sport they may not have been exposed to until their high school years I think adds to the level of accomplishment. I like the fact that some kids get a shot at state because of the 32 man bracket.

Your comment of some kids just having to weigh in to make it is a bit of an exaggeration, I have no doubt in the smaller regions, in the smallest and heaviest weight classes there is some truth to that statement. But it is the exception and not the rule, overall kids are having to win a few matches to qualify. Hopefully the programs will continue to improve and grow and the situation will improve over time.

The state tournament is the crowning glory for a long season, regardless of how you get there. I've said many times, its not how you get to state that matters, its what you do when you get there. The fact that ours is three days kind of adds to the difficulty by requiring making weight for 3 days, staying healthy and at your best for 3 consecutive days and all the other little things that are required to be successful at state.

The bottom line is that all the kids get a chance to participate in the event, which they do beginning with regionals.

Whether the state is 32man, 16man or even an 8man tournament the end result is the same, the last one standing is the state champ!

Who all was upset technically or just from opinion??

Ranked higher

Expected to win but just didn't

Any of this

Who beat coty lewis?

Who all was upset technically or just from opinion??

Ranked higher

Expected to win but just didn't

Any of this

Who beat coty lewis?

Trevor Maxwell from HARC

Eville Dad, love the discussion.  I simply try to engage thoughts and opinions from intelligent forum members like yourself.  Sometimes I bring contoversy with off the chart comments, but that's just to people ripple the waters.  

Here is the bad news EDad, your still at your desk,  good news- I am checking out and heading to Frankfort.  Hunt me down at the Holiday Bar, 1st one is on me.  

I have provided medical coverage to five different state tournaments (football, all "A" basketball, sweet 16, softball and wrestling) and nothing comes close to the atmosphere of the finals of the wrestling tournament. Yes three days of working between 10 and 15 hours a day gets old but the payoff is amazing.

I have to say that the argument of KY having weak wrestling gets a bit old as well. If you think Harrison Courtney or Mitch Irvin just hang out and watch practice then show up to wrestle you're dead wrong. Competition is competition no matter where you are. Would this year's state champs win in other states? Who knows, what we do know is that the total numbers are not as high as other states. I would say to anyone in a position to help, that you must push for more schools to field a wrestling team that is properly funded and backed by a feeder system. If you want the state to get better you have to get more athletes involved. I have seen middle schools become more involved in the past couple of years and I heard talk in Frankfort this year that some high schools are getting back into wrestling. I hope the sport continues to grow. I'm proud to be able to take care of and work with these great individuals.

I agree that the days are too long, so move the tournament to a facility that can accommodate 6 or 8 mats instead of 4. Wrestlers, coaches, parents, spectators and others should not have to wait until 11 pm or later  until the last match on Thursday and Friday.

As far as the 32 man bracket being watered down, I agree.  Let's make the NCAA Basketball tournament only 16 teams, the NFL playoffs only 2 teams, and go back to old MLB standard of no playoffs.  That is much more exciting.  No one wants to see an upset (4Denlein vs. 1Woods) on the wrestling mat.  It never happens.  4 seeds or 3 seeds can't possibly place.  Let's use Ranger's rankings (no offense) to seed the wrestlers, (like the BCS) and don't even have a tournament, and let 1 vs. 2 wrestle.  PROBLEM SOLVED!

I agree that the days are too long, so move the tournament to a facility that can accommodate 6 or 8 mats instead of 4. Wrestlers, coaches, parents, spectators and others should not have to wait until 11 pm or later  until the last match on Thursday and Friday.

As far as the 32 man bracket being watered down, I agree.  Let's make the NCAA Basketball tournament only 16 teams, the NFL playoffs only 2 teams, and go back to old MLB standard of no playoffs.  That is much more exciting.  No one wants to see an upset (4Denlein vs. 1Woods) on the wrestling mat.  It never happens.  4 seeds or 3 seeds can't possibly place.  Let's use Ranger's rankings (no offense) to seed the wrestlers, (like the BCS) and don't even have a tournament, and let 1 vs. 2 wrestle.  PROBLEM SOLVED!

I diidn't know which post to reply first your's or evilledads.  I love the state finals tournanemt atmosphere.

I have posted last year that 4 mats is a shame both for the participants and the fans.  For the growth of wrestling in KY, the 32 man bracket is not a bad thing.

I agree that the days are too long, so move the tournament to a facility that can accommodate 6 or 8 mats instead of 4. Wrestlers, coaches, parents, spectators and others should not have to wait until 11 pm or later  until the last match on Thursday and Friday.

As far as the 32 man bracket being watered down, I agree.  Let's make the NCAA Basketball tournament only 16 teams, the NFL playoffs only 2 teams, and go back to old MLB standard of no playoffs.  That is much more exciting.  No one wants to see an upset (4Denlein vs. 1Woods) on the wrestling mat.  It never happens.  4 seeds or 3 seeds can't possibly place.  Let's use Ranger's rankings (no offense) to seed the wrestlers, (like the BCS) and don't even have a tournament, and let 1 vs. 2 wrestle.  PROBLEM SOLVED!

I like the 4-mat set-up. It's hard enough as it is to see all the action. With 6 or 8 mats, I would miss even more. And having the matches go until 11:00 gives people who had to work on Friday a chance to see some wrestling in the evening. Our coach told me the convention center doesn't charge the KHSAA anything to use the facility. That makes it difficult to move anywhere that WOULD charge. We would probably pay even higher ticket prices.

I agree that the days are too long, so move the tournament to a facility that can accommodate 6 or 8 mats instead of 4. Wrestlers, coaches, parents, spectators and others should not have to wait until 11 pm or later  until the last match on Thursday and Friday.

The other side of this, is that after three days, some of the kids were barely moving in the finals, etc. With things crammed into 2 days, with 1 to 2 more matches per day, is that fair to the kids? They are some of the finest conditioned athletes in all of high school sports, but I wonder if it is fair to expect them to cram all of the competition of a 32 man bracket into 2 days. For now, I say leave it alone.

I have no problem with the 32 man bracket. My problem is being held hostage for three days paying obnoxious prices for crappy food, when the tournament could be done in two days. If we are going to keep the 3 day/32 man bracket, stop punishing the teams whose wrestlers fall to the wrestle backs. Getting to arena at 8 a.m. and not leaving until 11:30 p.m. on Friday is not cool.

I have no problem with the 32 man bracket. My problem is being held hostage for three days paying obnoxious prices for crappy food, when the tournament could be done in two days. If we are going to keep the 3 day/32 man bracket, stop punishing the teams whose wrestlers fall to the wrestle backs. Getting to arena at 8 a.m. and not leaving until 11:30 p.m. on Friday is not cool.

I don't understand you saying you were held hostage. We were able to come and go all day, parking was free (although sometimes, it was more crowded than others), if you chose to stay there all day, you chose to stay there all day.

I have no problem with the 32 man bracket. My problem is being held hostage for three days paying obnoxious prices for crappy food, when the tournament could be done in two days. If we are going to keep the 3 day/32 man bracket, stop punishing the teams whose wrestlers fall to the wrestle backs. Getting to arena at 8 a.m. and not leaving until 11:30 p.m. on Friday is not cool.

It would be good to have Thursday and Friday more even in timing. The problem comes in because it's set up so no one is eliminated the first day, so I don't know what the answer is. Maybe it would be to get rid of the break on Friday, which could make the day shorter. But they want to make people leave so they can charge again for the evening session. I agree with you on the crummy food at high prices. We brought in food and drinks inside gym bags. I heard a supervisor of the ticket takers saying, "If you see someone with a Hardee's bag, don't let them in." I thought, man, I'd stand outside and eat my Hardees!

Is there someone at the KHSAA everyone should be emailing/calling to make recomendations for change? Do you all think they care?

I agree that the days are too long, so move the tournament to a facility that can accommodate 6 or 8 mats instead of 4. Wrestlers, coaches, parents, spectators and others should not have to wait until 11 pm or later  until the last match on Thursday and Friday.

As far as the 32 man bracket being watered down, I agree.  Let's make the NCAA Basketball tournament only 16 teams, the NFL playoffs only 2 teams, and go back to old MLB standard of no playoffs.  That is much more exciting.  No one wants to see an upset (4Denlein vs. 1Woods) on the wrestling mat.  It never happens.  4 seeds or 3 seeds can't possibly place.  Let's use Ranger's rankings (no offense) to seed the wrestlers, (like the BCS) and don't even have a tournament, and let 1 vs. 2 wrestle.  PROBLEM SOLVED!

The 2nd paragraph in my previous quote was supposed to be dripping with sarcasm, but obviously failed miserably.

Is there someone at the KHSAA everyone should be emailing/calling to make recomendations for change? Do you all think they care?

Julian Tackett

[email protected]

I don't understand you saying you were held hostage. We were able to come and go all day, parking was free (although sometimes, it was more crowded than others), if you chose to stay there all day, you chose to stay there all day.

I don't understand you saying you were held hostage. We were able to come and go all day, parking was free (although sometimes, it was more crowded than others), if you chose to stay there all day, you chose to stay there all day.

kissinger1: as a coach, who drove a bus to state, it was near impossible to come and go as I pleased. Coaches and wrestlers who can't or don't chose to stay at the plaza have to stay all day at the civic center, forced to pay extremely high prices for average to bad food.

I don't understand you saying you were held hostage. We were able to come and go all day, parking was free (although sometimes, it was more crowded than others), if you chose to stay there all day, you chose to stay there all day.

kissinger1: as a coach, who drove a bus to state, it was near impossible to come and go as I pleased. Coaches and wrestlers who can't or don't chose to stay at the plaza have to stay all day at the civic center, forced to pay extremely high prices for average to bad food.

Although you did in fact "choose" the convenience of staying there, I would strongly suggest you contact KHSAA with your concerns. I was told that at the Civic Center events, that KHSAA has some control over the concessions and therefore, some control over pricing. I would definitely contact them with specific concerns and items that you thought were overpriced. I wonder why, since they kept announcing for wrestlers to keep their passes visible, etc., that they couldnt give the wrestlers and coaches a discount over the fans, since they do have to be there so long?

I would call 6.50 for a sandwich a little much.  Although it was a dang good samich

Is there a reason that we couldn't have the first two championship rounds on the first day rather than 1 1/2 rounds in the championship bracket?

Is there a reason that we couldn't have the first two championship rounds on the first day rather than 1 1/2 rounds in the championship bracket?

If you remember, when the 32 man bracket first started, the weigh-ins were earlier on thursday, and they did do the first two rounds. Then the school administrators got very upset because what happened was that several teams who have to travel great distances actually missed all or part of WEDNESDAY class just for travel. So it was pushed back to make it to where fewer schools have to miss any time on wednesday. With schools financially accountable for every missed hour a kid is out of school, it comes down to a balancing act. It really comes down to somebody has to change what they were doing. Some teams went to school part day, then wanted to leave early and come to Frankfort and practice / work out. Then others stayed in school all day, worked out, then drove in late that night but complained about bad road conditions in February, etc. It just isn't an easy answer unfortunately. I can see why they have tried several things.

I am sure it has been looked into but finding a place that has...

1. room for 6 mats (2 rounds day one, no problem)

2. no access to floor by spectators.  In other words, no spectators, crossing in front of the mats and no silly aluminum railing that gets knocked over every five minutes.

3.  access for teams to work out on the premises the night before.

A bigger venue would be great for the state tournament, but as stated in previous posts, the KHSAA holds the tournament in Frankfort because the arena is free of charge, parking is ample and very close and the hotels promise not to raise their rates due to the event.  Also, I have said this before, but if we have more mats, that means we need more refs.  With so many people displeased with the 8 officials we had at state this year (I'm not one of those people), imagine how upset they would be if we ran 6 mats and needed 4 additional refs!  Many people believe it is hard for the state to find 8 good ones to ref the tournament now.

good point Dragon, 4 additional refs would be brutal! 

If I don't get back into coaching, I will officiate next year.  Not that I would try to save the world but I don't think I could do any worse.  Just what we need, another sub par official. Ha