We say it every year, but the refs are terrible in Ky. Over and over all weekend I saw bad calls everywere. A good ref should not be a factor in who wins and should not make or break a match.The ref of the year award here is more like the one who sucked the least.

Well... I didnt think the officating was very good.  Refs should never deciede the outcome of a match, I am not a Wayne County fan, but the ref cost Daniels his match.  That kid was a senior and he lost because of stupid calls.  I agree that stalling needs to be called but it was rediculous how many times it was called in this tournement.  Stalling was called so much that if you sprawed that was stalling , riding legs was stalling,  sprawling is a wrestling technique to counter a shot, not a stalling tactic.  In my opinion it was over called this weekend.  Does anyone else feel this way?

Stalling called too much for sure, except when it counted. What about Parks in the finals. He did nothing the whole third period, and I think it could have played out different if they made them wrestle.

I was going to wait on this topic, but you all know me I can't keep my big mouth shut.

Granted I have not seen many tourneys this year, but I don't believe the officials called the regular season the same way they called the state tourney.

I saw more fleeing the mat calls at the state tourney than I have in the last 10 combined. 

My question to these officials is this.  When has it become mandatory that a wrestler put himself in jeopardy just to stay in bounds? 

According to how the state tourney was officiated this weekend wrestlers are no longer allowed to sprawl if it results in them going out of bounds. They are also not allowed to pull their leg free if it results in going out of bounds.

I would say to an official that if it is not stalling in the center then it is not stalling at the edge of the mat.  While talking to one coach, he told me one of his wrestlers was hopping on one leg, he got near the out of bounds and was barely able to get back in bounds when his broke free.  The official told his coach that if he would have went out of bounds they would have called him for fleeing the mat. 

I also have a problem with the extra fast call on stalemate when the legs are in.  Since when do you only get 5 seconds to try and turn a person when the legs are in?  I agree that the 3rd stalemate should be a staling call, but if a wrestler is giving a good faith effort to turn a wrestler then he needs more than a five second count.

I have a lot more on this but will stop here for now  :-D

Any stats on stalling calls?  I bet Ky set the national record for stalling calls.  Did the refs make these calls all season?  :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o

No, it's state tournament time when all the administrators are watching so it's time to step up the calling stalls.  I know they would rather see more called than less.  If the season were called like this all season I wouldn't have a problem with it, but it was stepped up last week at our regionals and then even more in the state tournament. 

I was glad to see some fleeing the mat called, I do agree there were more called this weekend than the previous 10 years combined, but again, if it was called correctly through the season you wouldn't see it so much at the end. 

Legs I have a whole issue with.  if you can't turn someone from their base position in 10-12 seconds than it needs to be a stalemate as there isn't anything the guy on the bottom can quite often do without putting himself in jeopardy.  And like you say G.O.O. if the legs are repeatedly put in and results in a stalemate than it should be and is stalling. 

Any stats on stalling calls?  I bet Ky set the national record for stalling calls.  Did the refs make these calls all season?  :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o

There is just that one ref. I swear I ran his mom over or something because he just hates me to no end but it's whatever. Some refs you just have to deal with and keep moving on.

I always thought Jimmy Shaw from larue has something against union county. In the past he would always call things unfair but this year at state he was better. Im glad for him to get the ref of the year award. Cattan on the other hand should never step foot onto a mat again.

152 state finals were decided by a fleeing the mat call.  Choate stood up, got his hips away and took off running, the anderson kid didnt have his hands locked and was chasing him trying to get control of him and win dakoda went out he was awarded a point, that was ridiculous are you just supposed to let him go.

My two cents on officiating in Ky, is that the requirements to be certified are not nearly strict enough, therefore we have alot of bad officiating. But just my opinion is that stalling isnt called nearly enough here. If you disagree you need only to get a copy of the NFHS rule book and read the section on stalling. Myself, my son and our middle school coaches watched Grahm OH (#1ranked team in the nation) against Moeller in a dual a couple weeks ago and our middle school coaches were AMAZED how quick the officials in Ohio are to call stalemates and stalling. Stalling and quicker stalemate calls force wrestlers to continue to move and wrestle instead of hold on and slowing down the action. This can only be better for the spectators and the continued growth in  popularity of the sport

The requirements can't be strict.  We are in desperate need for refs.  I beleive there are close to 100-120 certified refs in Kentucky.  Of these roughly 40-50% of them are also coaches.  This means that they really dont ref during the season.  Another small percentage never actually do any reffing all year.  This leaves about 40-60 refs.  That is not good numbers.  With such low numbers you are bound to see a lot of "bad" refs.  Face it, it's all we got.  Hopefully some of these graduating seniors can get into reffing, and get the numbers up.  Unlike other sports you really do need to had wrestle some time in your life to be good ref.

After watching and reveiwing the entire match (ashbrook/choate) I have come to the conclusion that Choate should NOT have won the match. Ashbrook was the aggressor the entire match, he took 14 shots to Choates 3, after choate luckily got the takedown he stall the rest of the way. That is why ashbrook was gassed going in to sudden death overtime, because he was working the entire match not just circling and stay in a collar tie to stall out.

After watching and reveiwing the entire match (ashbrook/choate) I have come to the conclusion that Choate should NOT have won the match. Ashbrook was the aggressor the entire match, he took 14 shots to Choates 3, after choate luckily got the takedown he stall the rest of the way. That is why ashbrook was gassed going in to sudden death overtime, because he was working the entire match not just circling and stay in a collar tie to stall out.

I don't like you anymore, Andy.  :-D :wink:

I havent seen so many crappy calls in my life as i saw down at the state tournament.  where do we find these refs and these are supposed to be the cream of the crop. I wonder if they relized they were refs for wrestling not basketball.  maybe we need better class on wrestling for the refs.  refs should not dictate match. 

how bad were the refs did you see the 125 pound state finals how can 1 wrestler get cheated out of his title cuz the ref wont call stalling 3 and half min of stalling by the woodford kid and no call.  then when someone would sprawl he would get called for it. wow they diffently need more classes  :-o

I have just two things...maybe three...First, How can you expect your athletes be good sports when the Coach - Wayne County - won't shake the hand of the wrestler that beats his kid.  I'm not just talking about Sullivans match, I'm talking about everytime his kids get beat.  He needs to grow up and accept his kids loss like an adult.  Another thing he does is when his kids needs a breather he questions the refs or the score so that his kids can catch his breath.  He did this several times Friday.  The final comment I have is about how the refs awarded take down points.  They were so inconsistant at the out of bounds and take downs.  One ref would award a take down if the wrestler had only his toes in bounds while another ref wouldn't award a take down even if the wrestler doing the take down had almost all of his legs in bounds.  This needs to be called the same no matter what.  These were just some of the things I saw this weekend.

I have learned to have somewhat of a respect for referees, as I have reffed a few middle school tournaments here and there, but the inconsistent display of officiating at the state tournament was garbage.

Making a wrestler fall into a worse position rather than sprawling when someone shoots by the out of bounds line is rediculous. The stalling calls were so inconsistent from the regular season. I was okay with that. Okay, I told my team, you have to wrestle the way the refs are calling matches. But after the first day, it seemed some of the refs started shying away from the stalling calls, but hitting certain wrestlers.

Shane Parks was the best example. The whole third period was a grand display of not wrestling. If you stall the whole final period, sure it will be hard for someone to score on you. The whole crowd held up the stalling signal, but still no call. I believe I heard someone in the woodford crowd call for stalling in a match that followed. Give me a break.

I saw kids get hit for stalling in on single legs, trying to bring a wrestler back to the mat after a standup, and working halfs on the first round.

What about riding legs. I understand if a kid keeps throwing them in and does a half effort powerhalf and keeps letting the guy stand with him in the air just to stop the match, but come on. I saw guys trying to work pinning combinations and they were stopped after a very short opportunity.

I love the stalling rule, it encourages great matches full of action, but when it is not called fairly and consistently it is detrimental to the integrity of the sport. In the coaches meeting, I was told that there was a big pep talk to all of the refs on stalling. Lets just make it fair guys. Call it consistent throughout the tournament, each day and EVERY MATCH!

    Let me turn this around a little bit.  How about Cody Walls?  He seemed to do a good job.  I also heard from someone that he is only 20-21 years old. 

    Seems to me that no one is complaining about him. That to me shows that he did a good job.

Yep Cody graduated 2 years ago from Caldwell Co. Placed 3rd like 2 or 3 times. He goes to Western. I've heard from many people that he did a good job at reffing.

His father, Mickey, the former coach for Caldwell County, is about as good as they come. You will not shake him, and he only sees to colors (red and green) when he is out there. Cody did an okay job at state. A lot better as he has gained experience. Maybe this goes to show that western KY can produce good refs. Maybe we should employ more refs from places other than louisville.

Walls however did ref the whiting match were he blew the call.He is just as bad as the rest of em.The best ref i think in the state wasnt in the tournament. Now this may just be a rumor but what i hear he was blackballed for talking bad about the other refs.

Dang Fireplug, looks like he (the blackballed ref) was just stating the obvious. Yeah my main complaint with Walls in Region I was the takedown going out of bounds thing, and the tapout. We teach kids if they initiate a move in bounds and are going out to drag their feet. He did better at that at state in my opinion. Didnt see the match everyone is talking about, so I cant comment.

I have one major problem with the reffing. ANTICIPATING OUT OF BOUNDS. They call the kids 'out' before they get there. You can't do that. They aren't out until they're out. I'll admit, one kid I wrestled got an escape about a foot and a half inbounds and they called it out.

I was going to wait on this topic, but you all know me I can't keep my big mouth shut.

Granted I have not seen many tourneys this year, but I don't believe the officials called the regular season the same way they called the state tourney.

I saw more fleeing the mat calls at the state tourney than I have in the last 10 combined. 

My question to these officials is this.  When has it become mandatory that a wrestler put himself in jeopardy just to stay in bounds? 

According to how the state tourney was officiated this weekend wrestlers are no longer allowed to sprawl if it results in them going out of bounds. They are also not allowed to pull their leg free if it results in going out of bounds.

I would say to an official that if it is not stalling in the center then it is not stalling at the edge of the mat.  While talking to one coach, he told me one of his wrestlers was hopping on one leg, he got near the out of bounds and was barely able to get back in bounds when his broke free.  The official told his coach that if he would have went out of bounds they would have called him for fleeing the mat. 

I also have a problem with the extra fast call on stalemate when the legs are in.  Since when do you only get 5 seconds to try and turn a person when the legs are in?  I agree that the 3rd stalemate should be a staling call, but if a wrestler is giving a good faith effort to turn a wrestler then he needs more than a five second count.

I have a lot more on this but will stop here for now  :-D

I think the one thing several of us fail to realize is that the rules have changed since we wrestled. Now, the rules REQUIRE activity, not leg riding, not fleeing, constantly moving back to the middle of the mat, etc.

The biggest issue to me as I watch is NOT that they changed this three days. Its that for the other 362 they didn't call it correctly (okay, only 10 weeks of the season, but 362 works for drama). The biggest issue is that many of the schools who had concerns are those who hire their own officials during the year. So during the year, the officials call it the way the person that hires them wants it called. Without doing that, they don't get asked back. So it is natural to see folks call it one way at one school, and one way at another. Not ideal, not good, but natural. The regions where you don't hear many complaints, 2, 3, 4 and 5, are those who have an assigner who sends them their officials. They take whoever is sent. The official can call it by the back without the fear that he won't get rehired. That's why the KHSAA has assigners in football, baseball, basketball, soccer, etc., so that the officials are only accountable to the assigner, and are therefore free to call it like it is supposed to be called. If Region 1, 6, 7 and 8 did that, you might see a difference. I heard at the tournament that Region 1 has hired someone, so that is a step in the direction of getting all of the matches all year long, called in the same manner.

All in all, this year was probably like most years. How good or bad the officials were may depend on what chair your sitting in, with what color glasses on at the time.

id like to say that Sk's 125 steven Norberry was totaly screwed out of his match aginst woodford three calls in a row gave the match away he beat him if you ask me but romur was that the ref was woodford ulumni wouldent shock me

I have never seen an official make calls differently depending on who hired them in Nky.

Everyone knows what your gonna get with the officials we have up here.  I have never heard a coach complain and say they were not going to hire an official because he made a bad call against their team.  To me the coaches who do this are not very ethical. 

Once again I would be shocked if any of the Nky coaches have done this.

Plus won't this (an assigner) be another expense to the teams.  Many of which are already struggling for every dime they have.

Plus what happens to those teams that can't pay their assistants so they give them some of their home meets to get them some money. 

Just my opinion, but it seems to be a waste of money to me. 

I was only at the tournament Saturday. I cant comment on the rest of the topurnamnet, but I felt the officiating was pretty good most of Saturday. I saw two refs that I felt really made some bad calls but for the most part the rest seemed to be pretty compitant. I am an official myself, certafied in two states and have gotten flack from a few coaches for what they felt were bad calls so I understand the position of the ref.. Here is all I can say on the officiating in Ky. Not enough guys are up to date on the rule changes from year to year. I understand we are very short here, but turning a blind eye to bad officiating because we are short to begin with is not going to solve the problem. And secondly as an official all that you can do on the mat is remain consistant with your calls no matter what the score or how much time is remaining on the clock or if its a first round match or the finals. BE CONSISTANT from statr to finish with all your calls, wheather it be on the edge takedowns or stalling.

id like to say that Sk's 125 steven Norberry was totaly screwed out of his match aginst woodford three calls in a row gave the match away he beat him if you ask me but romur was that the ref was woodford ulumni wouldent shock me

ccwrestler1 this is exactly how rumors, lies and misinformation gets started. If you have a problem with a ref and his abilities that's fine and should be discussed but when you start rumors like this nothing good comes of it. The only ref at state (that I know of) with any connections to Woodford was the older one with the mustache. His son wrestled for one year and quit back in the nineties (I think). His father got into reffing and liked while his son got out of the sport. Criticize calls, abilities or judgement but don't make things up.

I have never seen an official make calls differently depending on who hired them in Nky.

Everyone knows what your gonna get with the officials we have up here.  I have never heard a coach complain and say they were not going to hire an official because he made a bad call against their team.  To me the coaches who do this are not very ethical. 

Once again I would be shocked if any of the Nky coaches have done this.

Plus won't this (an assigner) be another expense to the teams.  Many of which are already struggling for every dime they have.

Plus what happens to those teams that can't pay their assistants so they give them some of their home meets to get them some money. 

Just my opinion, but it seems to be a waste of money to me. 

If a school cannot afford $100 to $125 a year as a one-time fee to eliminate phone calls, emails and worry about whether an official will be there, will show up, is trained, etc., then they shouldn't have the sport.

My two cents on officiating in Ky, is that the requirements to be certified are not nearly strict enough, therefore we have alot of bad officiating. But just my opinion is that stalling isnt called nearly enough here. If you disagree you need only to get a copy of the NFHS rule book and read the section on stalling. Myself, my son and our middle school coaches watched Grahm OH (#1ranked team in the nation) against Moeller in a dual a couple weeks ago and our middle school coaches were AMAZED how quick the officials in Ohio are to call stalemates and stalling. Stalling and quicker stalemate calls force wrestlers to continue to move and wrestle instead of hold on and slowing down the action. This can only be better for the spectators and the continued growth in  popularity of the sport

Well said, refdad.  My kids are grown now, but I have three sons who wrestled in Missouri, Illinois, Kansas, Indiana, Ohio, Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia and Florida, in addition to Kentucky.  Every one of the other states were more aggressive in calling stalling than Kentucky is.  I agree with your assessment of that.

On the other hand...you cannot call stalling one way for the first 10 weeks of the season and then radically change your philosophy for only the state tournament.  Wrestlers deserve a consistent approach to stall calls, so they can adapt their style and strategy over the course of the season.  It is unfair to ask them to suddenly change a wrestling style that helped them win their way to the state tournament in just a couple of matches.

stalling stalling stalling... one lucky takedown then stalling... i saw it over and over and none of the acting refs would give more than one stalling call... mknealy from eastern stalled his way through state ... parks in finals with voth.. stalled through 2 periods.. rediculous

stalling stalling stalling... one lucky takedown then stalling... i saw it over and over and none of the acting refs would give more than one stalling call... mknealy from eastern stalled his way through state ... parks in finals with voth.. stalled through 2 periods.. rediculous

I only saw 2 of McNeely's matches, but I didn't see stalling in either of those.  You can't just yell poor officiating when you don't like the outcome of the match.  The officials need to be consistent, but so does the complaining.