Ok, let's hear opinions on Yesterday's tournament. I thought it was Ok, ran way late of course,(but that is almost expected) and last minute change to sessions. Points, well I don't really understand how that went, and how come so many first placers didn't even count. I definitely do not like the fact that Johnson put several teams together to make one, that is cheating.
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Opinions on Kentucky Youth State Tournament
Topic ID: 3694 | 115 Posts
TO BE SHORT..IT WAS ONE OF THE WORST RAN TOURNAMENTS I'VE BEEN AROUND. THERE IS ALOT OF WORK THE ASSOCIATION NEEDS TO LOOK AT TO INSURE THAT THE NEXT ONE IS NOT A DISASTER LIKE THIS ONE. WRESTLERS WAITING 3 HOURS BETWEEN MATHES OR NOT WRESTLING THEIR 1ST UNTIL 6P.M. IS WRONG NO MATTER HOW YOU LOOK AT IT. ONE SUGGESTION IS BEFORE AWARDING THE NEXT SITE MUST HAVE HOST TEAM TO BE ABLE TO SHOW THEY CAN HANDLE A YOUTH TOURNAMENT. THEY ARE ALOT DIFFERENT THAN A HIGH SCHOOL TUORN. IF THE TOURN. RAN AS SMOOTH AS THEY THOUGHT IT WAS IT WOULD OF BEEN OVER BY 5P.M. EVEN AFTER 1 1/2 HOUR LATE START.
Johnson County used the same scoring format which had been used in the previous Elementary State Tournaments (Laure, McCreary, and Conner). One score for each weight class. The confusion came into play where you had a weight class with up to 7 (8 man brackets) for the 9 / 10 year open class. In this situation the person you had finished the highest would be your score. However, if you had two placers in the same weight class the highest placer would be your score and the other placer would not score.
Personally, I do not like using the 8 man brackets. This created many problems with the brackets and scoring. I hope the association address this for next year tournament.
I think parents and coaches need to keep in mind that this is the 2nd year. Not to make any excuses but a tournament is a tournament but when the numbers are doubled from one year to the next, that can cause some issues.
I did not go but I got an earful. As the Coaches association tries to work out the bugs, we should be proud that the entries went from 350 to over 600 kids in one year. Not to mention how many teams declined the travel.
I do know that Citywide, which is Cincinnati's grand finally for Youth wrestling is held over two weekend at different schools. I think this should now be considered, or make the regionals an actual qualifier.
The other thing is to eliminate teams scores or put a cap on the number of scorers.
ekymatdad could you please explain your statement that Johnson County combined several teams to make one team.
I thought the tournament went well. I talked with several coaches who left well satisfied. When you have over 600 wrestlers and well over 100 requests for changes on the morning of the tournament you will have issues. Imagine with me if you will if we had wrestled the first round of all 88 brackets then the second and then so on. Kids would have waited alot longer than three hours to wrestle and we may still be there.
Ok, let's hear opinions on Yesterday's tournament. I thought it was Ok, ran way late of course,(but that is almost expected) and last minute change to sessions. Points, well I don't really understand how that went, and how come so many first placers didn't even count. I definitely do not like the fact that Johnson put several teams together to make one, that is cheating.
WOW!! I can't believe I actually thought there might be a youth or m.s. tournament ran in this state for once that people didn't complain about cheating. Please, if you care about this sport in this state whatsoever, please put your swords away and just enjoy that our youth are wrestling. I'm not attacking you personally on that issue, I just hate the way we are becoming in this state regarding the accusations of cheating. Starting a thread to discuss opportunities to improve is a great idea, bickering of cheating or what the team standings were in a youth or m.s. tournament is sad and pathetic. If that's the way it is always going to be, and the adults can't figure out how to all get along without calling people cheaters, then I suggest to the association that we stop keeping team scores in youth & m.s. The kids could care less. The team standings are only there to stroke the coach's egos anyway. I spoke to 2 coaches yesterday who said they would like to see the team scores done away with at the youth level. Make it happen coaches!!
I agree with heavy83 that it ran way too long. There are tournaments all over the country with 2-3 times this many wrestlers that the kids do not have to sit around all day. That needs to be worked on. That is a major turn off to this sport. Also before you decide 2 days before the tournament to make a change like splitting it into sessions, the association & coaches need to greatly improve their communications. That to me was a sign of poor organization & planning to say that anyone was caught by surprise that there were 600+ wrestlers. Last year there were 2 state tournaments, Conner & Johnson County. As mano y mano said, there were 350 at Conner. I actually heard yesterday it was closer to 400 at Conner and there had to be 100-200 at Johnson County. Where's the surprise? Our coach had a heck of a hard time contacting everyone as our team only practices on Tuesdays & Thursdays and people were traveling on Friday.
I'm not trying to sound ungrateful, I know the coaches and everyone are volunteers, and do not get paid a dime, so thank you to all who put this event on especially Jim Matney & the Johnson County people...thank you!! I just think we need to figure out how to make it better next year. Maybe we should look at models outside this state to help run a decent tournament? Or hire someone to run the elementary tournament.
Instead of people griping and complaining on this website, Please contact your regional rep. or if you coach, Go to the association meeting in May. That is the proper forum for dissatisfaction. I know it is hard to wait but be patient. Some of us were discussing ways to improve the tournament while we were in the Hotel. We are coaches from different teams but we respect one another and value each others opinions, wisdom and personal experiences as coaches. There is not one of us that could say " I can satisfy everyone" after running a very stressfull State Tournament. I could pick apart all four State tournaments that we have had. Why? I have not walked in the shoes of any of the four who have hosted.
My opinion on this topic is....I brought ten of the toughest, smartest, Most devoted, Fundamentally sound and passionate wrestlers in the state of Kentucky. ALL of which know what team score is and care about it because they all wrestle as a team. All but one placed, and they are proud of being 12th in the state.
Simon Kenton Youth Wrestlers coach Frank, Gary & Mark are very proud of all of you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Positives:
1. The sport is growing - its great to see so many youth wrestlers
2. 650 wrestlers travelled to Johnson County for a tournament
3. The tournament will be somewhere else next year
Problems:
1. Splitting a weight class into 4 or more groups. How can you have 4 state champs in one weight class? I understand this is great for the marginal wrestlers for their self-esteem. But quality wrestlers, even at the youth level, want to be able to say they are THE state champion, not one of 4 or 5. This was obviously done to save time and speed the tournament - I can think of other ways to get it done.
2. Having a coach's meeting @ 7 AM without notifying anyone
3. possibly the worst run tournament I've ever seen. If we are going to call this a state tournament we need better.
4. the open division weight classes need to be adjusted. Some 9/10 year old kids were wrestling kids weighing 60 lbs. more. At least one got hurt. This is a no-brainer.
5. No hospitality room? Are you kidding me?
6. High school kids reffing state championships? Even at the elementary level, if we are calling this the state championship we need quality refs.
7. Why Johnson Central? Union county had to travel 7+ hours. The state championships need to be in central KY.
8. The word was that all the registration fees ($25 per kid), admissions, concessions, etc. went to the host school. There were no paid refs or table workers. Do the math - for that kind of money we should have had a quality tournament. Johnson Central made some good money this weekend.
9. keep the parents, grandparents, etc. off the floor next to the mats and have them stay in the stands where they belong.
Suggestions:
1. Have regional qualifiers
2. Have a centrally located state tournament
3. Each weight class should have only one state champion
4. Improve communication before and during the tournament
5. Most of the revenue needs to go back to the association - like it is done in the Middle School association.
6. Take a look at the open division weight classes before someone gets hurt.
7. Hire trained and certified officials. If we need to hire someone to run the tournament, spend the money to get it done right
8. Use bout numbers (ask Larue County how to run a quality tournament)
9. Never, ever hold the tournament at Johnson Central again.
I commend them for running the tournament. I wasn't there but I heard nothing but negatives as far as how it was run. Many parents from my area said there would be absolutely no way they would ever go there again for a tournament.
Since I wasn't there like I said I don't know all of the details. If they spilt up weight classes though that is an absolute joke.
I have worked and helped run little guy tournaments where I am originally from with up to 30-35 kids in a weight class and we never had a problem running things smoothly.
Seems like the biggest problem with wrestling in this state is lack of communication. Everything seems to be just thrown together.
Positives:
1. The sport is growing - its great to see so many youth wrestlers
2. 650 wrestlers travelled to Johnson County for a tournament
3. The tournament will be somewhere else next year
Problems:
1. Splitting a weight class into 4 or more groups. How can you have 4 state champs in one weight class? I understand this is great for the marginal wrestlers for their self-esteem. But quality wrestlers, even at the youth level, want to be able to say they are THE state champion, not one of 4 or 5. This was obviously done to save time and speed the tournament - I can think of other ways to get it done.
2. Having a coach's meeting @ 7 AM without notifying anyone
3. possibly the worst run tournament I've ever seen. If we are going to call this a state tournament we need better.
4. the open division weight classes need to be adjusted. Some 9/10 year old kids were wrestling kids weighing 60 lbs. more. At least one got hurt. This is a no-brainer.
5. No hospitality room? Are you kidding me?
6. High school kids reffing state championships? Even at the elementary level, if we are calling this the state championship we need quality refs.
7. Why Johnson Central? Union county had to travel 7+ hours. The state championships need to be in central KY.
8. The word was that all the registration fees ($25 per kid), admissions, concessions, etc. went to the host school. There were no paid refs or table workers. Do the math - for that kind of money we should have had a quality tournament. Johnson Central made some good money this weekend.
9. keep the parents, grandparents, etc. off the floor next to the mats and have them stay in the stands where they belong.
Suggestions:
1. Have regional qualifiers
2. Have a centrally located state tournament
3. Each weight class should have only one state champion
4. Improve communication before and during the tournament
5. Most of the revenue needs to go back to the association - like it is done in the Middle School association.
6. Take a look at the open division weight classes before someone gets hurt.
7. Hire trained and certified officials. If we need to hire someone to run the tournament, spend the money to get it done right
8. Use bout numbers (ask Larue County how to run a quality tournament)
9. Never, ever hold the tournament at Johnson Central again.
In response:
Positives:
1)-Correct-great to see so many wrestlers
2)-640+-also great
3)-new location next year-better for everyone
Problems:
1) Multiple brackets within a weight class-The bylaws specify 8 man brackets. The table workers couldn't even manage those-imagine trying to have them correctly manage 8+rat tails or 16 man bracket.
Possible solution-Regional qualifiers. I'm sure this will be looked at in the May meeting. I would also suggest that the hosting team seek out volunteers to help with the tables. In the No KY region we asked each of the participating schools to run a table. Each team served up their best and the tables were run accurately and smoothly because everyone knew what they were doing. I know our team would have been more than happy to provide resources to run a table. I bet others would too.
2) Absolutely there needs to be better communication (all around)-But this specifically should have been specified in the flyer
3) I want to keep my response constructive so I will leave this alone and rely on the remainder of the post to address specifics as opposed to this general statement
4) Open weight classes-hosting team should never have combined some of these classes-for instance 9&10 95 lb division started the open class. The bylaws specify 95 and 100 lb classes and then open class. If there were 3 kids in those classes (95 and 100) then those should have been run as such. I believe there were atleast 3 in the 95 lb bracket that registered and 3 in the 100......but instead there were 3-90 lb brackets, then 7 "open" classes. This should not have happened....and it happened in other age groups too. Those brackets should have been posted on Friday night with the weights identified for the coaches to see and make suggestion that would have aligned these 7 open brackets with the bylaws. In those 7 open brackets, each team could only get points for their highest scorer.......there should have been three classes and three opportunities for team points instead of one.....should have been points for 95, 100 and then open with a respectable amount of weight difference with the wrestlers in the open bracket. More than 10% should require discussion by coaches BEFORE the bracket starts. I know of one instance where the weight difference was 70 lbs and no one knew this until the finals. The lighter of the two young men had to forfeit due to the unnecessary risk of wrestling someone that much bigger. The wrestler and his coach should never have been put in that situation.
5) Hospitality rooms are nice but they are labor intensive and expensive.......the hosting school was probably maxxed out on resources. But when you host a tournament that lasts as long as this one you should probably do something....even if it is just liquid refreshments. My $.02 for that one.
6) Again-this is a revenue issue and the fact that it would be difficult to get 10 certified refs to officiate. I think Conner did a good job with this by have one certified official for every 4 mats to oversee the officiating and provide constructive feedback to the young men volunteering their time. Further-the ref situation is always a bashing session even if they are certified-check out the high school state tournament thread about officiating. My thanks do go out to the young volunteers. I believe that each one of them came out committed to do their best that day. Thanks guys!
7) Why JC? This has been addressed multiple times already-----BECAUSE NO ONE ELSE OFFERED TO HAVE IT. No one would dispute the fact that a site that is more central to the state would be ideal. Let this be the call to rally up your team (and ALL other teams) to offer to host future tournaments. It would be nice to be able to have a screening process to choose the BEST site........when only one school offers the decision is easy.
8 The is a fee schedule that they used. $25 per wrestler. $150 per team (up to 18 wrestlers) then $5.00 per wrestler after that. For the 39 that our team took it was $255........I can't complain about that. They do have some costs to cover....medals, trophies, tournament supplies (mat tape, copies, office supplies) etc. When we have hosted tournaments we have had to pay the custodian (time and a half), EMT fees (we have had them on site before), so there are some expenses. It isn't like they got $25 x 640. I am sure they made money on the tournament......but it wasn't as much as you eluded to. Also for the concession stand-I thought their prices were reasonable. I am sure they made a profit, but after running two tournaments this year I can tell you that your concession profit is minimal.....nothing to get too excited about. We have never charged a gate fee......they made out well on that.
9) Total chaos on the floor. The blame goes out to the violators on this one. It was announced more times than was necessary and the violators didn't even flinch. My only suggestion would have been to stop all matches until there was compliance with the floor restriction. Obviously this would not have been rec'd well as it would have made the tournament run even longer. No win situation for the hosting team.
Your suggestions should be given to your region rep. They are valid. Obviously we are always wanting better communication and hopefully as this sports continues to grow we will get better at it. I chalk this years experience up to growing pains.......it hurt a little but that means that interest in the sport is growing. If we all take a broad look at what we CAN do and work together we can navigate our way through this. I would say that there has been a lot of progress made in growing this sport. I attribute that to the excellent coaches and the parents that have supported their kids, and to the athletes that I watched yesterday.......especially them. Let's be constructive, be candid but respectful and work cooperatively to influence postive growth.
We, the wrestling family of Johnson County, would like to thank every single parent and fan who attended this year's state elementary tournament. It is easy to see where there will be many future great wrestlers in this state because I personally witnessed some of the finest, most positive coaches I've ever seen. Those who attended watched the largest wrestling tournament ever held in the state of Kentucky (as far as number of wrestlers). It was almost overwhelming, even to our veteran wrestling staff, to say the least.
We appreciate the opinions and suggestions of even our harshest critics. The decision to split the sessions was made by Mr. Martin (president) and we believe it was a good and possibly only answer to the incredible turn out. We ran almost twice the number of matches of any of the previous state tournaments and we were done by 6:15. We personally were not in favor of keeping a team score, but we conceded to the better judgment of the state coaches who like to keep the competitive team spirit alive. The home team, under this format, will always have a slight advantage due to sheer numbers. Our county youth team had 110 members this season, with about 75 wrestling in the tournament.
We would also like to sincerely thank each and every Johnson and Martin County volunteer who worked so hard all day. Thanks also to our superintendent, Steve Trimble, and the high school administration for supporting the youth of our state. Alex Green, Nick Chaffin, Heath Chaffin (supervisors) and each young official, we thank you greatly!
We will be glad to answer any questions we possibly can. One post mentioned that we had run a state tournament last year, but that is incorrect. We held a local tournament, which drew 250 participants.
Old Grappler.....I agree 100% with everything you said EVERYTHING except never having a tournamnet at Johnson Centeral again. I didnt even mind the 3 1/2 hour drive untill I drove that far to only have two matches and have two other state champions in the same weight class!!! This is a joke!! I voiced my opinion and was told, not by Johnson Centeral people, but everyone else that the goal was to keep more kids involved. If this is the case, then have a youth touranemt evey weekend, then have a either four or eight districts tournaments out of which the top 4 advance for state and have a 16 or 32 man bracket.. Lets crown a TRUE STATE CHAMPION. All that I keep hearing isthis youth program as well as middle school are supposed to be patterned after high school but this was an absolute joke by the people who made the decisions. Folks need to realize that yesterdays tournamnet turns more people away from the sport than keeping them involved. I would be emabraced to tell anyone my sons was ONE of our state champions if they knew he had a seven man bracket and two other state champions in the same weight class...Thanks very much to the people from Johnson Centeral for your hard work and for hosting the tournament.
"Our county youth team had 110 members this season, with about 75 wrestling in the tournament"
Wow Johnson County has 110 on one team?
Or are you made up several teams in Johnson County?
Old Grappler.....I agree 100% with everything you said EVERYTHING except never having a tournamnet at Johnson Centeral again. I didnt even mind the 3 1/2 hour drive untill I drove that far to only have two matches and have two other state champions in the same weight class!!! This is a joke!! I voiced my opinion and was told, not by Johnson Centeral people, but everyone else that the goal was to keep more kids involved. If this is the case, then have a youth touranemt evey weekend, then have a either four or eight districts tournaments out of which the top 4 advance for state and have a 16 or 32 man bracket.. Lets crown a TRUE STATE CHAMPION. All that I keep hearing isthis youth program as well as middle school are supposed to be patterned after high school but this was an absolute joke by the people who made the decisions. Folks need to realize that yesterdays tournamnet turns more people away from the sport than keeping them involved. I would be emabraced to tell anyone my sons was ONE of our state champions if they knew he had a seven man bracket and two other state champions in the same weight class...Thanks very much to the people from Johnson Centeral for your hard work and for hosting the tournament.
Embarassed?? I for one am PROUD to let anyone know that my son is one of the best 80pounders in the State!!!! What everyone needs to realize is this is a new organization and will take a couple of years to work all the bugs out. No tourney is going to run smoothly enough to please everyone. I felt that the JC organization did as well as they could with that many wrestlers. It had to be overwhelming for them. I feel that many things need to be taken care of at the upcoming meetings and am confident that it will happen with the organizational leaders we have. Everyone needs to stay postive for our programs. I wonder how many kids have read these negative posts and it's taken something for them? We need to remember that we as ADULTS sacrifice our weeknights and travel for hours on weekend for our CHILDREN and the love of this SPORT. Congrats to all the brave young wrestlers we are proud of you all!!!!!!!!
Who's decision is it as far as hosting the tournaments for regionals and state?
Regionals is decided through the region----I think this year we barely one team in each region to offer. Contact your fellow region coaches if you are interested and they can vote. It is my understanding that nominations are taken at the coaches meeting at the State Tournament and then voted on. I was not at the Coaches meeting, but you may want to check with your coach. I have heard the Fern Creek is having the State Tournament next year. Someone can correct me if if I have heard wrong, which is a possibility.
WRESTLINGMOM,: if you read my post I said thanks to the folks from JC for their hard work and for hosting the tournament. I greatly appreciate their hard work!! Thanks again. But the point I am making is if you were to go and watch any other state tournament you would understand how rediculous it is to be there from 8 am to 8pm to wrestle two matches! TWO MATCHES. twelve hours. And we are the onlly state that I have ever heard of with two, three or four state champions in one weight class.
To GREATLY improve things, please refer to OLDGRAPPLERS post , suggestions 1 thru 8!!
Johnson County, You must be commended for being able to corral 650 wrestlers and complete an entire tournament in one day. WOW! There were 448 wrestlers for the high school tournament and it took 3 days. If this turn out is expected next year, you should consider trying to have an entire weekend tournament in Frankfort where the high school championship was held. Certainly you would have the financial backing with this many wrestlers and parents.
Refdad--- I'm not on this site to argue with you I fully understand your frustration. My point is the negativity, not your post specifically, but with all the posts in general. If we have a problem with the organization then we need to be willing to step up and take a leadership role in elementary wrestling. I too sat on the bleachers for 12+ hours to watch my sons 3 matches. It made it all worth it to see him climb to that top spot, two other co-champions or not. I think it is great that elementary wrestling is growing. I think regional qualifiers are a must next year.
All,
The Ohio OURWAY state tournament was held this past Saturday, below is a post talking about how their tournament went, based on what is said in this post I believe all and all that Johnson Central ran a good tournament, certainly there are things that need to be improved "No matter where the tournament is held" but read the article below.
Let me start by saying KUDOS to OURWAY for attempting to run a state
tournament but hopefully some constructive feedback will bring
changes for the upcoming NUWAY tournament in MI in April.
First the positives...
*good location
*guest appearance by Gov. Arnold
I'm sorry to say the rest is a lengthy list of things that need
improvement. ..
*weigh-in's 4 days prior, why not just do a "call-in"?
NOT IF YOU WANT TO RUN A STATE CALIBER TOURNAMENT.
*complete chaos just to enter, with an 8:30 start time at 8:15 the
line was still wrapping around the building just to get in.
*8:30 quickly turned into 9:15 table worker meeting
(again mass chaos, too many workers and noone knew where to go, than
at the end of the 16 hour day begging for workers)
*each division and weight class had the same bout numbers which led
to each division wrestling through the complete round, this is fine
except at one point we had gone 7 hours between matches. And that
was if you were lucky enough to not have a round robin or 8 man
bracket because they didn't even see their first matches until round
3 (between 3 to 4 PM)
*There was never a point where all mats were running full beause
there were constantly empty mats. 14 advertised mats turned into 13
and then into 9 once the college club wrestling started.
*upon entering, all outside food had to be discarded, ok fine but...
*in all of nationwide arena, only 1 concession stand was open,
people were standing in line for over an hour for a hot dog.
no gatorade but you could grab a beer or a mojito.
by 3PM they "broke their rules by allowing us to bring in outside
food" this was probably because by 6PM they were out of almost
everything.. .hey where was my $20 worth of bagels and drinks that
you made me throw away earlier?
*nice touch with the singlets, too bad they ran out of everything
except XXS or XL before they even got thru division 4 finals.
and the main reason for actually posting this message
*after watching a little guy lay motionless on the mat anywhere
between 5-10 minutes, and listening for the trainer or medical staff
being paged to the mat over and over and finally he was removed on a
stretcher about 30 minutes later. Then, to watch another kid land on
his head, his poor father getting removed from the mat, and all the
while, the pages for the trainer or medical staff going completely
unanswered, the ref ending the match by medical default.
The purpose of this post isn't to bash OURWAY. I know running a
tournament is difficult and there are "growing pains and learning
curves" but that was almost 20 hours ago when I bought into that. So
here it is 2 AM on my drive home, my best to all of you that may
still be there waiting for your awards and snug fitting singlets.
Good night and safe travels.
FIRST OFF I WOULD LIKE TO THANK JC FOR THEIR HOSTING AND WORK ON SATURDAY. I READ SOME OF THESE POSTS I THOUGHT I GIVE SOME OF MY SUGGESTION FOR THOUGHT: 1: DO AWAY WITH SET WEIGHT BRACKETS, MAKE BRACKETS ACCORDING TO KIDS ACTUAL WEIGHTS. THIS SHOULD HELP THE PEOPLE WHO THINK THERE SHOULD BE A "TRUE CHAMPION", ALSO WON'T HAVE A 63LB. KID WRESTLING A 105LB. KID. 2: DO SATELITE WEIGH INS OR USE WEIGH INS FROM REGIONALS. 3: DO AWAY WITH TEAM SCORES BECAUSE NO TRUE AND FAIR WAY TO DO IT FOR SMALL CLUBS TO HAVE A CHANCE. 4: MAKE THE REGIONALS QUALIFIER AS SUCH YOU HAVE TO WRESTLE IN REG. TO BE ABLE TO WRESTLE IN STATE TOURN. THEREFORE YOU WOULD THE HIGHEST POSSIBLE NUMBER FOR TOURN. NOT A 200 INCREASE IN ONE WEEK.
Thank you Johnson Central for hosting the tournament.
For those of you complaining, I suggest that you read the post from Peacemaker on the "Why?" topic. He says it best. This is for the kids not us adults! So what if there are two or three champions in one weight class. This this makes your kid one of the best in the state. These are little kids here. Not high school kids. Having mulitple brackets give all the kids a chance. Let the kids get wins under their belts. If kids are continually beat they will lose interest in the sport and where does that get us? To keep wrestling in KY growing we have to continue to get kids interested in the sport. When these kids get to high school they will know what loosing is about so don't throw the self esteem thing back at me. I know kids have to learn to lose but they also need to know that there is fun in the sport also. It also has to be said that if you want your kids to get better you have to be willing to travel. No one said that this was an easy sport to be involved in. Parents travel all over for baseball and basketball. Why should you think this sport would be any different. Finally, for those of you who didn't like having to travel so far maybe you should offer to host next years tournament. Remember this is about the Kids!
Thank you Johnson Central for hosting the tournament.
For those of you complaining, I suggest that you read the post from Peacemaker on the "Why?" topic. He says it best. This is for the kids not us adults! So what if there are two or three champions in one weight class. This this makes your kid one of the best in the state. These are little kids here. Not high school kids. Having mulitple brackets give all the kids a chance. Let the kids get wins under their belts. If kids are continually beat they will lose interest in the sport and where does that get us? To keep wrestling in KY growing we have to continue to get kids interested in the sport. When these kids get to high school they will know what loosing is about so don't throw the self esteem thing back at me. I know kids have to learn to lose but they also need to know that there is fun in the sport also. It also has to be said that if you want your kids to get better you have to be willing to travel. No one said that this was an easy sport to be involved in. Parents travel all over for baseball and basketball. Why should you think this sport would be any different. Finally, for those of you who didn't like having to travel so far maybe you should offer to host next years tournament. Remember this is about the Kids!
Some of these posts are complaining, some are simply constructive criticism. If people running this event don't like the heat, they need to stay out of the kitchen. I believe most of them are open minded to the suggestions provided on here. Regional qualifiers will probably help out tremendously next year.
Personally, I don't understand the rationale of splitting a bracket up. What does it buy you? If it seems there are too many kids for a manageable bracket, I think you need to add more weight classes. Not split an established agreed upon weight class into multiple brackets. This will some day lead to host teams hand picking their brackets and allow for too much manipulation & maneuvering. I'm not suggesting this has ever happened, but I'm sure it will happen or appear to happen in the future if this continues. Just stick with the posted weight classes. If you end up with a 32 man bracket (heaven's forbid) and that is too unmanageable. A) you have no business running a state tournament. 
add a new weight class in that area the next year.
As far as wrestlewatcher's comments "1) Multiple brackets within a weight class-The bylaws specify 8 man brackets. The table workers couldn't even manage those-imagine trying to have them correctly manage 8+rat tails or 16 man bracket."
The bylaw here needs to be changed unless there is justification for this. Why 8 man brackets? If the table workers have trouble with managing brackets, whether it's 8 man, 16 man, or 128 man, then address that issue with training or whatever needs to occur. Not with a bandaid like an 8 man bracket limit.
to add to earlier post; to possibly help with table workers experience level each team that goes to the state tournament must bring table workers to work. should help with confusions on scratches or whatever. if all teams need work together on this whether your teams is getting any money for it or not. this should help to run quicker and smoother. which in turn make it better parents, coaches and most of all the kids. if host team or whoever does the bracketing knows the age and weights by mid week brackets could be done by friday. any questions on brackets could be done at coaches the friday night, brackets fixed by sat. morning and wrestling and fun begins. the only questions that really should be brackets would be weight differences on a few kids for safety issues.
I dont know why someone asked for peoples opinion because many on here seem to have an inablity to take criticism without getting defensive or offended. So many getting lost chasing red herrings that are not important to the essence of relavant communication. Personally i had a great time although Yes it was much longer than it should have been. The refs sucked and yes people usually do say this but the refs sucked. Yes they were teens and yes they volunteered but the refs sucked, and they all sucked equally. JOhnson central is cheap,(with the revenue that the tourny brought into town business donations could have supplied the hospitality room) not even powdered gatorade and water in the hospitality room because there was no hospitality room, still i had a great time because i luv the sport and i met some wonderful people. I dont know the purpose for having a state championship when a state champion is not determined hmmmmm. If its going to be like that then lets call it the Lets Make All The Kids feel good tourny.
Yoda, you missed my point all together. I'm saying we have to do what we have to do to keep the kids interested. If you went out every week and got your butt handed to you each week would you continue to wrestle? Probably not. Johnson Central did the best they could with what they had. I know our club couldn't have done what they did with 640+ kids. Also, getting the teenagers involved was a smart idea. This teaches them what it is like to be an official. State Elementary wrestling is still in its infancy and there are many things to be learned. Some of it by trial and error. No one thought that there would be that many kids this year. It was a long day but who hasn't sat at the Frankling County tournament every year for 12+ hours..........
what we all must remember this is for the kids and them only. the more we get to wrestle in the tournament the better it is for all jr and high school teams. if we do the brackets the way i suggested earlier all kids a chance but also the competition to win to get medal. remember none of these fine athletes get a college scholarships for being a youth champ. we would have competitivness and feel good at the same time. also for the refs i don't think we need all refs be certified but one for every 3-4 mats to oversee and help in certian situations that occur. i agree with irshwrestler if the high school kids are involved could possibly make them better understand this mentally and physically tough sport
Yoda, you missed my point all together. I'm saying we have to do what we have to do to keep the kids interested. If you went out every week and got your butt handed to you each week would you continue to wrestle? Probably not. Johnson Central did the best they could with what they had. I know our club couldn't have done what they did with 640+ kids. Also, getting the teenagers involved was a smart idea. This teaches them what it is like to be an official. State Elementary wrestling is still in its infancy and there are many things to be learned. Some of it by trial and error. No one thought that there would be that many kids this year. It was a long day but who hasn't sat at the Frankling County tournament every year for 12+ hours..........
I see your point about encouraging the newbies. But do you really think this should occur at the state tournament? I know we are in our infancies in youth wrestling, but still, this is state. State should be about awarding the best of the best.
What the clubs should learn from this is that there is a great amount of opportunity to host beginner's tournaments throughout the year. 640+ wrestlers is probably a subset of 1000+ overall wrestlers in this state at the youth level. Let those kids get their token medal there - not at state. At state, let it be the real deal and crown the kid that truly earned it. Anyhow, a lot of this is a moot point because it really sounds like there will be qualifying regionals next year, so it will solve a lot of issues already.
heavy83 - i do like the idea of h.s. kids reffing because like it has been pointed out, maybe it will encourage some of those kids to take it up. A certified ref as a mat supervisor is a great idea. The only concern I would have would be liability. As a certified ref, I am insured. With h.s. kids refereeing, how are they covered? If a kid is injured you can forget all about what a fine sport this is, mom and dad are going to sue!! I've never understood how that works out for schools, but I guess they know what they are doing.
Great point Oz! I like the idea of regional qualifer to get into state atleast for an elite bracket (championship) or 2 in each age/weight and decide a unanimous winner. Bring the rest of the kids and lets still have a great time in seperate brackets. My son took first in his bracket but he wants to know who is the best out of the 3 brackets in his age/weight. Thats not me talking thats him, if that does not prove that to some of these kids its more than a fun thing to do on the weekend im not sure what will. For those of you who want everone to get a medal thats fine but don't exclude those who strive to be the best and have a desire to know who that is, because ultimatley thats what makes the best wrestlers or anything for that matter.
No one one here said the the kids Saturday did not strive to be the best. I know my gave it everything he had. The kids he wrestled were very good. Yes my son won but there wasn't a big deal made about the fact that in some of the groups there was more than one bracket. Some schools can not got to extensive amount of tournaments each year so they go to all the ones that they can. I agree with having a qualifier next year, but, don't take anything away from the kids who won this year. As parents we need to be adults about this and just let it go and wait for next year. If you didn't like the way things were handled please contact your regional representative and give them your ideas so that they can be passed along. Volunteer you time to help out like all the other people do. The only way things can get better is if everyone works together with the same goal in mind. I believe someone on here earlier said the kids from Saturday won't get scholaships for college but they sure did get a life learning experience. I'm not saying that the tournament should be turned into a "Lets make everyone feel good tournament" at all as Yoda stated. dhays- if your son wants to know who is the best then you should take him to the elementary nationals he'll definately find out there!
lol at yodawrestles.... perfect quote though. lets call it the ...lers make everyone feel good tournament. if this is ran under the same dictatorship as this year I would not drive across the street to attend. instead I will drive to columbus have all the compitition my son can handle and then some and have a feelings of accomplishment if he wins a 16 man bracket or more.. everyone has their opinion but this is taking wrestling in our state in the wromg direction
. A certified ref as a mat supervisor is a great idea. The only concern I would have would be liability. As a certified ref, I am insured. With h.s. kids refereeing, how are they covered? If a kid is injured you can forget all about what a fine sport this is, mom and dad are going to sue!! I've never understood how that works out for schools, but I guess they know what they are doing.
A cerified ref or not no one is covered. Elementary school wrestling is not a KHSAA sanctioned event and therfore an official is not covered under them. Same as a middle school event.
I total agree with you Irish Wrestler I think the kids gave their all at every level. My statement was to the lets make everyone feel good crowd. I want them to have fun as well but for those who strive to be the best go the extra mile at home they deserve an overall champion. I was usings my sons case as an example not a complaint he is fine with a co-champion but he still would like to have known. We had a great time at JC and would make the drive next weekend if the tourny was ran the same. My point the regional should determine the final chamionship bracket and the rest will be a seperate non title tourny. Lets face it if state this year was only regional quilifers there would not have been 640 kids. That would be bad for the sport so why not, instead of one way or another everyone gets what they want.
Quote of wresltewatcher from reply #10 on this board:
"4) Open weight classes-hosting team should never have combined some of these classes-for instance 9&10 95 lb division started the open class. The bylaws specify 95 and 100 lb classes and then open class. If there were 3 kids in those classes (95 and 100) then those should have been run as such. I believe there were atleast 3 in the 95 lb bracket that registered and 3 in the 100......but instead there were 3-90 lb brackets, then 7 "open" classes. This should not have happened....and it happened in other age groups too. Those brackets should have been posted on Friday night with the weights identified for the coaches to see and make suggestion that would have aligned these 7 open brackets with the bylaws. In those 7 open brackets, each team could only get points for their highest scorer.......there should have been three classes and three opportunities for team points instead of one.....should have been points for 95, 100 and then open with a respectable amount of weight difference with the wrestlers in the open bracket. More than 10% should require discussion by coaches BEFORE the bracket starts. I know of one instance where the weight difference was 70 lbs and no one knew this until the finals. The lighter of the two young men had to forfeit due to the unnecessary risk of wrestling someone that much bigger. The wrestler and his coach should never have been put in that situation. "
Directly from the by-laws:
H) Weight Classes
Age Weight
11-12 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 95, 100, 110, 120, 140, open
9-10 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, open
7-8 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, open
5-6 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, open
I)No individual weight class shall contain more than (8) wrestlers. If a weight contains more than (8) wrestlers it must be broken down into smaller increments with the criteria being age first and then weight. Example: 32 kids signup to wrestle in the 9-10/55 lb weight class. The separation would be first the 9 year olds in one group and the 10 year olds in the other. The kids would then be bracketed by weight.
The by-law was followed.
No idea where those smileys came from
I)No individual weight class shall contain more than 8 wrestlers. If a weight contains more than 8 wrestlers it must be broken down into smaller increments with the criteria being age first and then weight. Example: 32 kids signup to wrestle in the 9-10/55 lb weight class. The separation would be first the 9 year olds in one group and the 10 year olds in the other. The kids would then be bracketed by weight.
That is just an absolute joke of a rule. There is no reason a bracket should be split up ever.
As far as making the kids feel good so a large majority of them get medals and keep wrestling, the state tourney is not the time for that.
That rule is there so that these young adults don't wrestle too many matches in one day.
A cerified ref or not no one is covered. Elementary school wrestling is not a KHSAA sanctioned event and therfore an official is not covered under them. Same as a middle school event.
I don't believe that is true. As long as the event (m.s. or youth) is ran under the NFHS rules, the refs insurance will cover (i.e. do not exceed 5 matches, etc.). At least that is what we are told at the m.s. events. I hope what you are saying is not true at least!
How can an event be run under NFHS rules but not have certified officials?
It is done at both the middle school and elementary levels.
I know half the reason. The number of officials are low, but if one official is not certified then I would think it would negate all certified referee's because the tourney is not following NFHS rules.
I don't know. Maybe someone can enlighten me on this one.
I thought that was why club teams in middle school have to have a USA card. For the insurance reasons.
I got a meanie PM & a negative karma for making some "suggestions for improvement". I think I'm going to go cry.
For people on here who think the negative comments are being harsh, grow up! Quit being so sensitive. Everyone appreciates everyone. I feel a lot of love in this room. Now let's get real and make things better. Not everyone will make the state meeting or be able to get a hold of their regional rep. How do I even find my regional rep? Is this posted on a website somewhere?? I thought this was the official forum for youth wrestling. Afterall, we've received a lot of official communications through this forum. Can't we give some honest feedback through this forum??
Just because some of us are not "official coaches" or regional reps does not mean our opinions should be disgarded. Hey refdad, next year PM me and maybe we'll carpool up to Columbus! LOL. Every comment I have made on this subject has been made in the spirit of helping youth wrestling get better in our state. If a little criticism hurts the sensitivities of certain people, then I apologize.
How can an event be run under NFHS rules but not have certified officials?
It is done at both the middle school and elementary levels.
I know half the reason. The number of officials are low, but if one official is not certified then I would think it would negate all certified referee's because the tourney is not following NFHS rules.
I don't know. Maybe someone can enlighten me on this one.
I thought that was why club teams in middle school have to have a USA card. For the insurance reasons.
Those are some good points, you may be right.
That rule is there so that these young adults don't wrestle too many matches in one day.
If they want to break up a bracket with is dumb to begin with, it should be a heck of a lot bigger then 8 wrestlers before it happens.
Simon Kenton Youth Wrestling (SKY Wrestling) Is proud to have participated in the Elementary School State Wrestling Tournament. We are very proud of our state champions and all of our wrestlers who were fortunate enough to make the 3 hour trip to a very beautiful and historic part of our wonderful commonwealth.
All of our wrestlers were proud to have participated and it was positive for youth wrestling in our particular area. I already have people calling and asking if we are doing the Border Wars tournament. Since the regional tournament the parents and the children are on fire about wrestling. I am going to take the bad with the good and offer my opinions at the May meeting. Your team head coach or whoever runs your childs team should know who your rep. is. Your coach can take whatever your concerns may be to the meeting or to your rep. I have heard a lot of useful suggestions on this thread. It is good to know that there are so many people in this state who know so much about the sport. You all make me proud to be involved in a part of Ky. sports history. It seems to me that all of you who are posting in this thread have at least one thing in common.....a true passion for the sport!
8. Use bout numbers (ask Larue County how to run a quality tournament)
How did they run the tournament as far as this was concerned?
I've always found that bout numbers for little kid tournaments seem to confuse people more then anything and it is much easier to call each age and weight up that is wrestling.
They had the brackets at the table.
Our kids travel to CYW so they are used to sitting and staying at the table waiting there turn
we did not have any trouble with that. We had one bracket not make it to any table but they fixed it when
our coach realized.
For me my biggest complaint ......it would have to be all the open brackets.
Then alot of brackets were not even 8 man brackets but still had A,B,C and half full?
Overall we enjoyed our time at JC. I found that they did the best they could under the circumstances.
How did they run the tournament as far as this was concerned?
I've always found that bout numbers for little kid tournaments seem to confuse people more then anything and it is much easier to call each age and weight up that is wrestling.
So if we use 32 man brackets that could be 9 matches in one day. I don't think it is fair to ask kids to wrestle that many in a day.
Since we have 4 regions we could have the top four from each region qualify and that would make the state brackets 16. Every child will have the opportunity to compete at their regional tournament with qualifiers advancing to state.
The thing I don't like about the 16 man brackets are just like middle schools if you do it one day the 5 match rule can come into play. Not fair to the kid who loses first match and works his tail off to get consi finals only to lose by default. Please remember we as coaches and parents are here to teach fundamentals of wrestling and life. IMO 99.9% of the kids who won sat. does not care there was 3 brackets at 70lbs. They are as proud as all get out that they won. The adults are the ones that "IMO" too hung up on there being a "TRUE STATE CHAMPION". If need be we could change name to "THE KENTUCKY YOUTH STATEWIDE TOURNAMENT", and not keep team scores so each kid that wins was the that day.
heavy83 - you bring up a good point so I think we should put it to the test. As coaches let's agree upon 5 questions to poll our youth teams on. Question 1 might be: Would you prefer to have 1 state champion or multiple state champions? Question 2 - Do you agree with the 5 match rule? Question 3 - Do you think regionals should be a qualifier for state? and so on. Then let's post the reponses from all the kids across the state and see what kids really would prefer. I think some of us might be surprised on what the kids really want.
Ok heavy83, if that is your only concern about having 1 bracket, then how about we figure out how other states get around this? There are many tournaments and state tournaments all over the country who ignore the 5 match rule. Go to a USAW tournament and you can wrestle as many times as you want. How do they do this?
Indians40 - you are making a lot of sense. Let's see what the coaches say.
Again for the people on here who are trying to squash this friendly discussions, no one is trying to discredit the kids accomplishments or anything that the KYSWA or Johnson County did. We are trying to help improve the state for next year. It is my opinion as well as others that a state tournament should determine the best kid in a particular weight class. No one can convince me otherwise. So to say "let's all drop this". Sorry, it won't be that easy. Give me a good reason for splitting the brackets other than "because the bylaw says so" and I will be happy to drop it. I just don't agree with it.
Please remember we as coaches and parents are here to teach fundamentals of wrestling and life. IMO 99.9% of the kids who won sat. does not care there was 3 brackets at 70lbs. They are as proud as all get out that they won. The adults are the ones that "IMO" too hung up on there being a "TRUE STATE CHAMPION".
My point exactly. Glad to see someone else was thinking the same way.
The thing I don't like about the 16 man brackets are just like middle schools if you do it one day the 5 match rule can come into play. Not fair to the kid who loses first match and works his tail off to get consi finals only to lose by default.
The 5 match rule does not have to be enforced in elementary school. Even the high schools are looking at this rule.
Please remember we as coaches and parents are here to teach fundamentals of wrestling and life. IMO 99.9% of the kids who won sat. does not care there was 3 brackets at 70lbs. They are as proud as all get out that they won. The adults are the ones that "IMO" too hung up on there being a "TRUE STATE CHAMPION". If need be we could change name to "THE KENTUCKY YOUTH STATEWIDE TOURNAMENT", and not keep team scores so each kid that wins was the that day.
The same could be said at any tournament. Most kids just wrestle. When they get a medal they usualy don't know why they recieved it.
It is what it is. THE STATE TOURNAMENT. I believe we should make it a true one in the future.
We are just trying to improve what we already have. The only way to do this is to continue moving forward. If we stand still and sit on our hands we will not be able to move forward. These are all growing pains that KY wrestling is experiencing at this time. Don't give up because the pain is to great. Like we tell our kids move thru the pain and do the best you can.
I think a good reason to split the brackets is because if they didn't the kids would have had to wrestle too many matches. Even if they had used 16 man brackets there would have been more than one champion.
Since we have 4 regions we could have the top four from each region qualify and that would make the state brackets 16. Every child will have the opportunity to compete at their regional tournament with qualifiers advancing to state.
That is the way to go right there. There is 4 regions, each has a regional qualifier with the top 4 from each going on to the state tourney.
Everyone gets to wrestle at least at the qualifier if not state, and the state tourney is easily managable at that level.
The problem I see with making the reg. a qualifier for the top 4 is you will have to seed the tourn. Which could be very hard since teams usualy don't wrestle each other. There"s always arguing about seeds in high school how much do you think it will be here. If that happens it will be coaches deciding which kids are the best instead of the kids.
for anyone who is of the belief that 5 matches in one day is too much for a kid, don't ever go to the Tournament of Champions or the Tulsa or Reno Nationals Or Cliff Keen Eastern Nationals.
Inians40 good point, but imo if you ask the kids about multiple bracket, 5 match rule,etc. most kids will say huh? except for the ones mom, dad or coach tells what to say, just my opinion though
for anyone who is of the belief that 5 matches in one day is too much for a kid, don't ever go to the Tournament of Champions or the Tulsa or Reno Nationals Or Cliff Keen Eastern Nationals.
Exactly - especially if they are just wrestling 3 minute matches. The five match rule should not be an excuse to split the weight classes at a state tournament.
I think this weekend showed a major problem with using the regions as a qualifier. How many of the "top 4" are definitely going to travel to the state tournament. I'm guessing 75% at best. Then all we have done is limit participation to have a bunch of byes at the "state" tournament. Plus, what will happen is Region A will have 50 kids show up to participate in the 7-8 year old 60 pound weight class and no one in the 9-10 90 pound weight. Region B will be the opposite and then the state bracket ends up with 8 or 10 instead of 16. And then a lot of people are upset that their kids didn't qualify because of poor seeding and then there were a bunch of open slots at state.
for anyone who is of the belief that 5 matches in one day is too much for a kid, don't ever go to the Tournament of Champions or the Tulsa or Reno Nationals Or Cliff Keen Eastern Nationals.
I've never even heard of that rule prior to on here. There isn't any problem with wrestling more then 5 times.
I've never even heard of that rule prior to on here. There isn't any problem with wrestling more then 5 times.
As long as they have adequate rest in between matches. You are totally right. And when was the last time you went to a youth tournament where you didn't have PLENTY of rest between matches?
I think this weekend showed a major problem with using the regions as a qualifier. How many of the "top 4" are definitely going to travel to the state tournament. I'm guessing 75% at best. Then all we have done is limit participation to have a bunch of byes at the "state" tournament. Plus, what will happen is Region A will have 50 kids show up to participate in the 7-8 year old 60 pound weight class and no one in the 9-10 90 pound weight. Region B will be the opposite and then the state bracket ends up with 8 or 10 instead of 16. And then a lot of people are upset that their kids didn't qualify because of poor seeding and then there were a bunch of open slots at state.
I don't understand your logic there. Everyone is saying how great it was that there were over 600 kids that came to state, yet you think if a kid had to qualify for state a less percentage of kids would show up? I would think if they had to qualify they would be more likely to show.
As far as you example where is the problem? All it does is weed out the kids at the qualifying tournament rather then wasting a bunch of time doing it at state.
The problem I see with making the reg. a qualifier for the top 4 is you will have to seed the tourn. Which could be very hard since teams usualy don't wrestle each other. There"s always arguing about seeds in high school how much do you think it will be here. If that happens it will be coaches deciding which kids are the best instead of the kids.
There is nothing hard about it, you seed them according to their place at regionals. As far as what regions wrestle each other that is just random. 1's start off wrestling 4 seeds, 2's vs 3's, etc.
All it does is weed out the kids at the qualifying tournament rather then wasting a bunch of time doing it at state.
With youth wrestling in it's infancy in this state, the association is working very hard to put a framework in place that includes all kids........and basically "weeds" out no one. My guess is that when knothole baseball started there weren't many teams........then it grew (and that was good). And then there were associations and temas that sprouted from that model to start "select" teams.....and that was fine too. If teams want to branch off of the youth teams that are being built today then they should......I hope they find the level of competition and intensity that they are looking for. But I want an adequate amount of teams for other kids to be able to be a part of and not be "weeded out" when they are 5 and 6 years old and aren't good enough to go to a state tournament. I think we would be better off working to manage the growth of the tournament, then we would by preventing the growth of the tournament.
Mouse the seeding i was talking about is at the reg. tourn. For all gung ho about true champions you would be crying if random draws put the best on one side of brackets. I agree with ranger123 we as youth coaches and fans of the sport to keep kids interested and learning not so much if you're the true state champ. I tell the kids I help at this age it is more about learning. they have plenty of time to stress out on winning or losing in high school.
I was just hit with a epiphany!!!!!!!!!! Why not get rid of the refs in youth wrestling and just let the kids wrestle for fun. Then there would be no looser and we dont have to worry about bruising their ego. Winning is not everything and i just dont understand how this is taught if everyone wins. I lost my first 13 matches by pin, but still went on the place 3rd in districts that year. Why did i keep going, because the match itself was not the totality of my experience. By playing Don King and padding records and instilling false confidence in children we are playing into their bloated narcisistic tendacies. I have seen studs prematurely leave the wrestling community because they never turned the corner into win alley. Now i guess the coach could have padded their records and set them up against bums but no matter what they would have eventually hit the wall of realization and have to come to terms with the intagible character issues accosiated with winning and loosing. Truth is, it is very difficult to control winning, all we can do is to prepare to wrestle intelligently and developing a solid work ethic. But All of this is mute if we just want to use kids to develop the numbers in youth wrestling and get their family to join the booster club. Personally i say get rid of the refs and just tell em they won!!! Then they would nt feel bad about loosing.......(<---Sarcasim at its best)
My opinion even though it isn't a popular one is this. If we want every kid to medal then lets hold more beginner tournaments in the state of Kentucky. Leave the state tournament to the best in each region and let the wonderful sport of wrestling grow in that way.
The thing about beginner tourny are it's had to get ppl to show up. Most everyone that is involved in the youth programs are involved in middle & high school programs as well. Our organization hosted a couple this year and only 2 schools showed. I don't think that there is a quick fix....just going to take a while to work all the bugs out.
Yoda to clarify my comments more; I believe a coach should always try to teach them to win no matter if they're wrestle the best or worst kid. But I think for growth of the sport more kids will stay wrestling because of getting to be in a big state tourn. Don't think we should change the overall scheme of things to satisfy less than 1% of the champs or worst the adults egos. I don't believe any of kids that won will quit wrestling just because there was more than one bracket. In fact more kids will keep with because there was more than one brackets.
What i think alot of ppl have to realize is that the youth program is still very young in this state and if we want it to grow then i believe that it would only hurt the program by only having one (true) champion per weight class.We are in nky and we go to mostly all Ohio tournaments and the competition is true alot harder,due to the fact that they have had a youth program for years.So i believe that we should do what ever it takes to get more kids on the mat and keep them there for years to come.
I don't understand your logic there. Everyone is saying how great it was that there were over 600 kids that came to state, yet you think if a kid had to qualify for state a less percentage of kids would show up? I would think if they had to qualify they would be more likely to show.
As far as you example where is the problem? All it does is weed out the kids at the qualifying tournament rather then wasting a bunch of time doing it at state.
Perfect example. How many kids did Johnson Central bring up to N Ky last year? Nowhere near the number of kids they would have sent to a local regional tournament. So my point is that a ton of kids will show up to a regional tournament with no intention of traveling across the state to the state tournament. It is just a fact. Some parents aren't buying into that. And I think that is fine. How many kids traveled from western ky? More than I expected, but I bet there would have been a few hundred more at a regional tournament who competed with no intention of driving to Johnson County.
There is nothing hard about it, you seed them according to their place at regionals. As far as what regions wrestle each other that is just random. 1's start off wrestling 4 seeds, 2's vs 3's, etc.
I get that. Setting up the state is pretty straightforward, but what about the regional qualifying tournament? It's not like these kids compete against each other a lot to really be able to seed them. And don't say it doesn't matter, because as soon as we just randomly draw them in and little Johnny gets a bad draw and doesn't qualify we'll have a thousand posts about how we need to change the seeding criteria and some school cheated in setting up the brackets and blah, blah, blah.
C'mon ranger how is not seeding the regional tourney any different than not seeding the state tourney?
Not having a regional qualifying tourney for this reason is a lame excuse.
As for those who will not travel that is why you have a 5th and 6th place wrestler. If as you claim the parents go to the regional not planning on making the state trip then they can role up the placements. Coaches will know who can go and who cannot. This will eliminate even more bye's. You can then have a couple of local wrestlers fill in the empty spots. (If it is a rotating state then every region will get this chance every 4 years)
C'mon ranger how is not seeding the regional tourney any different than not seeding the state tourney?
Not having a regional qualifying tourney for this reason is a lame excuse.
As for those who will not travel that is why you have a 5th and 6th place wrestler. If as you claim the parents go to the regional not planning on making the state trip then they can role up the placements. Coaches will know who can go and who cannot. This will eliminate even more bye's. You can then have a couple of local wrestlers fill in the empty spots. (If it is a rotating state then every region will get this chance every 4 years)
OK grappler, I guess we agreed too much this season, now we have to be on opposite sides. Or maybe you just want to disagree for arguments sake.
The big difference is that a lot of kids and parents enjoyed just making the trip down to the "state" tournament this past weekend. I talked to some kids (and their parents) who went 0-2 or 1-2 and they had a blast and were happy to be there. Now you take these people who are crying about having a true state champ and what happens when their little boy has to wrestle Dan Gable Jr in the first round and Colton Sanderson in the conso semis. "But he was 105-2 going in he should have been given a better draw!" "And I heard that 9 of the kids who made it to the state tournament had lost every match this year!"
You must be joking about rolling up the 5th and 6th placers. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since you are not really involved in this. But there were dozens of scratches the morning of the event this year. I don't know the exact number, but seem to recall someone mentioning over 50. That is the equivalent of 2 or 3 at each weight class at the HS state tournament. No way we roll up half of them, especially when it happens the day of the event. And the local fill-in will be huge every year when large blocks don't travel across the state (western ky driving to Johnson Central).
I don't think anyone minds hearing opinions on this site (for them most part as long as it's not too obnoxious), but please take the next step and share your opinions with your coach, regional rep, or come to the next organizational meeting. What I don't like is someone willing to whine and cry all day online, but isn't willing to step up and stand behind their own ideas. If you have the silver bullet to bring the entire youth organization into paradise come on out and show us how it is done.
Well ranger that is why I am posting my ideas on here. I have no little one wrestling, she is a ballarina, (and you think wrestling parents are bad go to a dance competition, now those people are out for blood). I am hoping someone smarter than myself can take some of these ideas and make it work.
My ideas of rolling up were ment for those parents that know days before the competition.
Filling with local wrestlers would give schools and areas a reason to try and hold the state and move it around.
I'm just trying to satisfy as many people as possible.
As I said before we have made a great start, but don't stop improving.
Silver bullet? Paradise? I think you have your legends mixed up.
The silver bullet kills werewolfs and paradise was lost my Eve. :-D
Well ranger that is why I am posting my ideas on here. I have no little one wrestling, she is a ballarina, (and you think wrestling parents are bad go to a dance competition, now those people are out for blood). I am hoping someone smarter than myself can take some of these ideas and make it work.
My ideas of rolling up were ment for those parents that know days before the competition.
Filling with local wrestlers would give schools and areas a reason to try and hold the state and move it around.
I'm just trying to satisfy as many people as possible.
As I said before we have made a great start, but don't stop improving.
Silver bullet? Paradise? I think you have your legends mixed up.
The silver bullet kills werewolfs and paradise was lost my Eve. :-D
Some parents might know, but based on the experience this year, that will NOT likely be communicated to the tournament director.
Trying to satisfy people is where we get into trouble. We need to just have good, open, informed discussion on the issues and made the decisions based on the best interest of the kids and the growth of the sport. If we try to make a bunch of parents happy we will likely run this into the ground. I'm all for continuous improvement, but not changing things just to make the vocal few happy. Those vocal few are often the ones that talk as if they have all the answers (the silver bullet) to solve all of the woes of the world. "If we would only do this or that then all would be right with the world and everyone would love wrestling and there would be wrestling shoes growing on trees."
The Youth organzation in Ky. is nowhere near being capable of filling enough weight classes on the Regional level to make them true qualifiers. WE ARE YEARS AWAY. There were 41 weight classes this year and there should have been 50. Put this in perspective. In order for a regional qualifier to work you would need a minimum of (4) kids per weight class per region in perfect balance across the weights. Otherwise you will have more than half the weights turned into round robins for the "no longer called state tournament". If I understand the posts on this site then wouldn't it be a complete waist of time to drive 3 hours for a round robin. Until we have the numbers to put on the type of tournaments people are suggesting then I would recomend signing your wrestlers up for the Cliff Keen style tournaments to supplement what we are able to offer them at this point in time. As more programs startup there will be more youth tournaments in the state. This year there were a total of seven that I'm aware of, 5 of those being regionals and state. I'm not saying go to Cliff Keen to be nasty. It's just a fact if you want more and better competition.
Heavy83 hit the nail on the head by suggesting no published weight classes. We wrestle in Cincinnati every weekend of the season and they do exactly that. They wait until the rosters are in and group the kids accordingly. In the well over 100 tournaments I've taken my kids to I've never heard a PARENT OR KID suggest they weren't the true champion of their class that day because with this system there is only one "true champion" of that weight class. Another benefit of this system is there is absolutely no benefit to cutting weight, if there ever was one. In the heavily populated classes there are many times only 1 lb difference between the weight classes.
The KSYWA must be doing something right to stir up this much passion. I hope we can channel this energy into starting even more Youth programs across the state than we did in the last year. Since the tournament I've already had (2) enquiries on how to start programs on this level. When the dust settles from this past weekend this should be everyones goal.
They wait until the rosters are in and group the kids accordingly. In the well over 100 tournaments I've taken my kids to I've never heard a PARENT OR KID suggest they weren't the true champion of their class that day because with this system there is only one "true champion" of that weight class. Another benefit of this system is there is absolutely no benefit to cutting weight, if there ever was one. In the heavily populated classes there are many times only 1 lb difference between the weight classes.
Now this sounds like the silfer bullet that Ranger speaks of.
Here you CAN have the best of both worlds. Why was this not used before?
With youth wrestling in it's infancy in this state, the association is working very hard to put a framework in place that includes all kids........and basically "weeds" out no one. My guess is that when knothole baseball started there weren't many teams........then it grew (and that was good). And then there were associations and temas that sprouted from that model to start "select" teams.....and that was fine too. If teams want to branch off of the youth teams that are being built today then they should......I hope they find the level of competition and intensity that they are looking for. But I want an adequate amount of teams for other kids to be able to be a part of and not be "weeded out" when they are 5 and 6 years old and aren't good enough to go to a state tournament. I think we would be better off working to manage the growth of the tournament, then we would by preventing the growth of the tournament.
It doesn't weed them out completely, they get the same opportunity to wrestle at regionals as they would at the state tournament without a regional qualifier. It includes all the kids yet still has the proper and correct format to build the wrestling here.
Mouse the seeding i was talking about is at the reg. tourn. For all gung ho about true champions you would be crying if random draws put the best on one side of brackets. I agree with ranger123 we as youth coaches and fans of the sport to keep kids interested and learning not so much if you're the true state champ. I tell the kids I help at this age it is more about learning. they have plenty of time to stress out on winning or losing in high school.
You can't really seed a qualifier at this kind of level. But with this age level the best kids usually work their way through and also a qualifier usually would have smaller brackets as well.
we traveled from wky this past weekend. my son is 6 yrs old and took a 4th place in his bracket. he went 2-2 in paintsville, he did nt get pinned in his losses, he won one by pin and other by points. my son and i had a blast traveling 7 hrs, stayed there 2 nights, the last night i thought he deserved a reward for working his butt off to be able to stand on the podiem. i believe this tourney was the most complete matches ive ever seen him wrestle. i know he is not the next dan gable jr, but seeing him understand some of the wrestling concepts and actually preform actual wrestling moves from all positions left me speechless. our team went to conner last year, my son was 0-2 both were pins, i was disappointed but my son could care less. you know what his fondest memories of the last 2 yrs are? he and his dad went to a wrestling hotel and stayed the night just the two of us were in the room, he and his dad. oh yeah, he gotto swimin an indoor pool and he got to wrestle some too.
seems to me, too many parents want something to prove to their friends and family. is there some proven document that just because some youth wrestlers are really good, and some of the kids are real good, does that mean they are gonna be better students, adults, or heck for that matter even better hs wrestlers?
we had a state champ last yr and this year. we had some kids get disappointed, they thought they should have done better. i was so dog gone proud of my son, one , just for dressing and walkingout onto the mat, two, because he listened to me and the other coaches and wrestled his heart out for that 4th place. you know, i think we to a real competition, no i think we went to a wrestling tournament!
i dont want my son to quit wrestling someday, because i was pushing him too hard. i hope he wrestles because he wants too, i just wish there had been any kind of youth wrestling when i was a kid. 9th grd was way too late, for me anyways. i think i started my kid wrestling hoping the values and discipline make him a better man when he leaves my house and starts his own life!
great job JC! i had a great time with my son at state! you know , we had fun driving 7hrs there and 7 hrs back!
That was awsome heightsdad. Your son will become a great gentleman mostly because you take the time to make him one. As an afterthought he will probably become a good athlete also.
The problem is you are the acception and not the rule. I'm not sure I would or even could travel 7 hours to and 7 hours from and pay for a hotel room, just for a wrestling tournament for one of my children. If we took a trip like that it would have to be a family vacation. The cost would kill me at this time in my life.
There are also many other parents in the same situation or parents who would not put that much interest in their wrestler. This is one reason I would like a regional qualifier, to prove to these parents that it is a big deal. Plus it will give the kids an opportunity to wrestle in a big tournament close to home.
Once again wonderful story heightsdad, your son is already being taken care of.
I'm not sure if I care about the TRUE STATE champion.
My son is now wrestling middle school, but I know when he was in the 5th grade I did not take him to the Elem. state tourney because it was to far away at McCreary Central. The family cost and family time was to great for just another elementary tournament.
If the tournament was more centralized the cance of us making the trip would have been greater.
I quess my point is this. Even veteran wrestling families such as me. I wrestled and have been coaching now for over 20 years. Have trouble making long trips for an open elementary state tournament. There have been many comments about stroking the parents ego's, and that the kids really don't care. In many cases that is exactly what we need to do. The kids at this age are just happy to wrestle and be with their freinds. As many of us old wrestlers know, for a child to become sucessful it must be a family thing. By stroking these parents ego's we are able to get them on board to making these long trips.
As a side note. If I would have been confidant that my son would have had a chance, and more importantly convinced my wife that he would have had a chance to be a state champion that year, we may have made the trip. I know this sounds kind of bad, but its the truth. For those of you that know me I always try to speak the truth even if it may not be politically correct, or make me look bad, as this comment may have.
just to throw it out there, my son as well as probably 80% of the region in union won first by default. hard to believe, gym full of kids, looked like a busy day on the mat, there was only one wrestler in almost every weight class and in every age group. at the "qualifier" we wrestled but they didnt mean anything.
by the way grappler, slow time on the farm and separated, i didnt have to take whole family. my circumstances made things a little easier to travel the last 2 yrs.
you know what his fondest memories of the last 2 yrs are? he and his dad went to a wrestling hotel and stayed the night just the two of us were in the room, he and his dad. oh yeah, he gotto swimin an indoor pool and he got to wrestle some too.
Those are the best memories for a wrestling parent, thanks for sharing that!
seems to me, too many parents want something to prove to their friends and family. is there some proven document that just because some youth wrestlers are really good, and some of the kids are real good, does that mean they are gonna be better students, adults, or heck for that matter even better hs wrestlers?
Some parents may be like that, some aren't. From my perspective, I've tried to understand what is the rationale for splitting a bracket up. Whether you have a regional qualifier or not. Even if the state is an open tournament, why split the bracket up? The best answer I've been able to grasp by reading between the lines is because the kids don't need to wrestle that many matches in a day. I believe E/R King has stated this, but this thread has gone in so many different directions, I could have been day dreaming that. For me personally, I am not trying to prove something to my family or friends. In fact, many of my family and friends do not know my son wrestles. I see it the exact opposite here. When I travel a great distance to enter a tournament, I like the possibility that my child may get 5,6,7+ matches. Stan Martin has brought up how things are done in Ohio. I've been to a few youth tournaments over there too. From the sounds of it, so has mouse, so has refdad, so has Indians40. A point you are missing about "how things are done over there" is that a lot of those kids over there go to a tournament and enter TWO different divisions. i.e. 70 lbs 7 & 8, & 70 lbs 9 & 10.........why? SO THEY CAN GET MORE WRESTLING MATCHES IN 1 DAY! Anyone who doesn't see this is missing the big picture in a big way! We want the sport to grow, but don't we also want the quality to improve. Driving 3 hours to a state tournament and getting a bye first round, then 2 matches for the gold makes no sense to me whatsoever. I'd rather stay home and drill, or heck...stay back at the hotel and let my little squirt swim in the pool.
i dont want my son to quit wrestling someday, because i was pushing him too hard. i hope he wrestles because he wants too, i just wish there had been any kind of youth wrestling when i was a kid. 9th grd was way too late, for me anyways. i think i started my kid wrestling hoping the values and discipline make him a better man when he leaves my house and starts his own life!
Pushing him too hard is relative to the kid, and only YOU can be the judge of that. Not the association. John Fahy placed at some of the nationals (Reno for one). Ask his dad how many matches his son had to wrestle to place at Reno Nationals. I doubt it hurt his kid any. But by all means, do not push your child more than he can take. We all hope the same for our children, that the lessons they learn from this great sport help them in life, not just in their "glory days".
great job JC! i had a great time with my son at state! you know , we had fun driving 7hrs there and 7 hrs back!
I couldn't agree more. Although it wasn't 7 hours each way for me.
Oz you say you've been to a couple. I'm referring to the GCYWA and I don't recall seeing any kids in the 100+ tournaments I've been to wrestle more than one bracket. We typically have one of the largest teams and NONE of my kids ever wrestle more than one wieght class.
I moved here from Ohio last March, I want to make sure everyone here understands that wrestling in Kentucky is not as far behind as some may think. I put on several tournaments in Ohio over the years and honestly I like many of the things that I am seeing in Kentucky. The Ohio Ourway state tournament happended last weekend and from talking to many of my friends from Ohio it was a disaster. Over 1200 kids were there and it lasted until after midnight. The reason i keep bringing up a regional qualifier is not because I want things to be like they were in Ohio. Quite honestly I loved the way the tournament was ran in JC, I also loved the way coach stams ran his Ryle open tournament, I believe those were ran very well given the circumstances. Now back to the reason, my fear is this year we grew in numbers of over 200 kids from last year. in 2009 the tournament will be held in Fern creek (my understanding) what happens if over 1000 kids show up? I do not believe that 1 week is enough time to organize a tournament of that size. If we are going to keep it as a open entry tournament then we all need to pitch in now and start helping organize that event. To give you an example, my team was a first year team and we had 30 on our roster, since the state tournament it now looks like as of April 8th of this year we will be adding around 40 additional kids to our roster. We very well could have over 80 kids in our club come November and that is just my team.
Oz you say you've been to a couple. I'm referring to the GCYWA and I don't recall seeing any kids in the 100+ tournaments I've been to wrestle more than one bracket. We typically have one of the largest teams and NONE of my kids ever wrestle more than one wieght class.
You need to get out more often then. The GCYWA is just one of probably a dozen big leagues in Ohio. Are you telling me you don't think they do this in Ohio? Try going to a tournament up around the Toledo, Cleveland, or Columbus area. Those are the hotbeds of Ohio wrestling. Or wrestle in some USAW tournaments in Indiana, Ohio, or anywhere else. The GCYWA is not the only place that runs youth tournaments in Ohio, and certainly not the best league in Ohio.
As the Great and Powerful OZ has stated it is not uncommon for kids to wrestle multiple weight classes in Northern Ohio. We tried to get 30-40 live matches before our regional tournament qualifier.
I know this started I think..........with the whole "I want a true champ" issue.
But has anyone on here sat with a 5 yr who was in a 32 man bracket in ONE day?
I have tournament of champion...........it was brutal on him and me!
He won his first.........lost his second.....won his third and the fun began.
So if my son wins at 5 yrs old 1st along with 2 other group of kids in brackets so what!!!!
When he is old enough.......he can sit at a three day event.
Good luck to all the arguing adults..........over who is the "real champ".
I moved here from Ohio last March, I want to make sure everyone here understands that wrestling in Kentucky is not as far behind as some may think. I put on several tournaments in Ohio over the years and honestly I like many of the things that I am seeing in Kentucky. The Ohio Ourway state tournament happended last weekend and from talking to many of my friends from Ohio it was a disaster. Over 1200 kids were there and it lasted until after midnight. The reason i keep bringing up a regional qualifier is not because I want things to be like they were in Ohio. Quite honestly I loved the way the tournament was ran in JC, I also loved the way coach stams ran his Ryle open tournament, I believe those were ran very well given the circumstances. Now back to the reason, my fear is this year we grew in numbers of over 200 kids from last year. in 2009 the tournament will be held in Fern creek (my understanding) what happens if over 1000 kids show up? I do not believe that 1 week is enough time to organize a tournament of that size. If we are going to keep it as a open entry tournament then we all need to pitch in now and start helping organize that event. To give you an example, my team was a first year team and we had 30 on our roster, since the state tournament it now looks like as of April 8th of this year we will be adding around 40 additional kids to our roster. We very well could have over 80 kids in our club come November and that is just my team.
Coach, I have already put in phone calls to the Fern Creek Coaches. I will not let what you are describing at the Ourway tournament happen here. At the spring coaches meeting we will discuss some ideas from a Regional qualifier basis. If you have any ideas on this please call me I would love to discuss them.
Coach,
I believe you have my personal email, if you would email me your phone # I will contact you to discuss. Also I would be happy to pitch in and help in anything that is needed.
I know this started I think..........with the whole "I want a true champ" issue.
But has anyone on here sat with a 5 yr who was in a 32 man bracket in ONE day?
I have tournament of champion...........it was brutal on him and me!
He won his first.........lost his second.....won his third and the fun began.
So if my son wins at 5 yrs old 1st along with 2 other group of kids in brackets so what!!!!
When he is old enough.......he can sit at a three day event.
Good luck to all the arguing adults..........over who is the "real champ".
"I want a true state champ" is not the exact point the "arguing adults" as you want to put it are making. It's setting things up the proper way they should be. Some of your complaints made above are all taken care off by simply having a qualifying tournament. You wont have huge 32 man brackets and better yet you won't have to split brackets up either.
Coach, I have already put in phone calls to the Fern Creek Coaches. I will not let what you are describing at the Ourway tournament happen here. At the spring coaches meeting we will discuss some ideas from a Regional qualifier basis. If you have any ideas on this please call me I would love to discuss them.
I'd love to help set up a qualifier in my region of you let me know who to talk to.
We attended the youth tournament this past weekend and initially I was in agreement with a lot of the negative ideas but after giving some thought to it I have changed my thinking on some points.
Regional qualifiers - On the surface this seems like a good idea but I think we are forgetting where KY youth wrestling is at in its development. Stan was right when he said we are far away from this. We competed in the Dayton OH area in the GMVWA and there were 62 teams with over 1500 kids. At the end of the season they held a tournament where all the kids got together and then in the next couple of weeks they regional qualifiers for the grade school state tournament. In Ohio there are over 7500 kids involved in youth wrestling. This enables all of the kids to get several matches in the 2 - 3 month long season in their local area. After that the top kids keep going to the grade school qualifiers. The kids that make it to the grade school state in OH are the real deal. 32 man brackets with 4 divisions - I think there are 17 total weight classes. Approx. 500 kids. Weigh ins Friday night with wrestling on Sat and Sun. It also costs a family a lot just to get in. 30 dollars each for adults less for kids and 10 dollars for a coaches wrist band. Plus hotels plus registration.
When we get to the point in KY where kids are getting enough matches during the regular season then we can start looking at regionals. Right now we are not there. We are at the point where we are trying to get kids involved - build up the programs on the local club level and keep the youth coming back. Clearly the motivation from the parents is there we just need to build on what we have and keep progressing. At this point we do not want to turn any kid away from any tournament they want to compete in. Are there improvements to be made - sure. We need to keep involved - give ideas to the regional reps and keep programs growing on the local level. Some have been started but there is a long way to go. Any time someone wants to hold a youth program or tournament they should be commended and given everyones support. We have come a long way and have a long way to go. Learn from our mistakes and give positive criticism. Clearly there is much to be learned and pulling together youth wrestling in KY will evolve to the point every one wants it to be.
one major problem in comparing Ohio to KY. Population size. The state of Ohio has a population about 3 times the size of Ky so if they have 7,500 kids then Ky in comparison should have 2,500 kids. Since we had 600+ at the state tourney. I would say we have at least another 600 kids who did not participate. Giving us around 1,000.
I would say that is getting pretty close. The state of Ky will never be able to have 7,500 kids wrestling when the state has a population around 4 million.
Using your philosophy "patriotrule" Ky should never have a regional qualifier because they will never get that kind of numbers.
Again the JC family appreciates all suggestions good or bad. One huge item I forgot to mention is that for the next time the State Tourney is held at JC we have a sponsor and we are going to give expense money to each team attending to help cut down on their costs. We are going to also try to have a banquet for the kids as well . We had a blast and promise to make it better the next time.
Hey, Indians 40 good lord man your supposed to be working!!! I would like to thank J.C for putting on the tourny it was a good day of wrestling.
They had a huge task at hand and did the best they could ,for the record I also feel that regonials should be a qualifier that would help with the large numbers.
A positive thought.............that we had state last weekend and not this blizzard weekend!!
Ok,I guess I will voice my thoughts on the state tournament.My son has finished 2nd 3 yrs in a row,to a 3-time state champ twice, and the only 4-time state champ.He knew Jake Burroughs was going to be in his weight class,instead of going up a class and being a state champ(99.9 % sure) he chose to try and beat him,only losing 4-2 in a great match.Jake was the true 60lb state champ,but for him to watch kids wrestle in tennis shoes and a tee-shirt and first yr wrestlers win state he was heart broken and mad at the same time.Cliff Keen was having its tournament in Cincy the same day he told me he would have rather just went there(maybe it was because he lost) but at some point we need to seperate quality from quanity in the STATE TOURAMENT.I am all for promoting wrestling (I spend ALL my extra time and money for this sport) but this needs to be adressed.As I told my son ,you never get anywhere by taking the easy path,his day will come with hard work.I also think the state tournament can do the same,we need ideas not anger.
I guess I make some people mad with all the smite I get. Boo Hoo :cry:
You know nothing about the smite young Grasshopper. :evil:
HAHA I even got more from that one post. Some of you people are sad. Learn to take some advice from people instead of thinking everyone who wants to make things better is complaining.