So, now we have been at the National tournament and come home with 3 All Americans, none of which were State Champions and all were underclassmen.  Congrats to Bradbury 2nd, Coyle 6th, and Brown-8th. 

I think the seniors went 15-21ish lead by Reid 4-2.  Sullivan 0-2, Peace 0-2, Courtney 0-2, all multiple state champs and the guys who beat them didn't do very well either. I understand Courtney was injured and Sullivan never should have been at 119, not against that competition. 

I wasn't there so I can't speak for anyone, but I know the level of competition and coming in unprepared is a huge mistake.  This is far more important than state.  This is one of the pinnacle tournaments for college recruits.  1st- All matches are tough and anyone can win and they will be from here on out at this level. 2nd With college coaches swarming the mat sides and taking notes, Some of those matches had BIG price tags.  Thousands of dollars in scholarships on the line.  3rd-Will this predict their success in college? Doubtful, but it helps mom and dads pocketbook.

Finally, kudos for those who went to either for the competition or to see where they stand on the ladder.

This is the largest representation KY has had and this should never discourage anyone from competing at this level. 

Whats next... Fargo.  Train FS/GR. 

OK

    1st I kind of understand the importance of this tourney to the seniors and maybe the Jr.'s, but dissagree about the importance to the freshman and Sophomore's.  Lets not make this out to be more than what it is.  It's a tourney that shows how close Ky wrestling is to the rest of the states. 

    2nd.  My question is this.  How many other states have their state tourney on the 2nd week in February like Ky?  Ky does this so not to interfere with the sweet 16.  I know Ohio's state tourney is in March.  Is having the state tourney in early Feb. unusual or not?

If it is then this gives our kids a slight disadvantage because they have been out of season longer than the rest. As I said I don't know and I am just asking the question.

1.  I was referring to the Jrs and especially the seniors, my fault for not being specific.  Fr. and So. should have the focus on state.

2. Our timing for state is bad, too early.  Football isn't even finished.

Can someone list all the ky wrestlers and what they did.  How many won more than they lost and who beat nationally ranked kids.  Congrats to all of them. 

Slammer,

see the topic Nationals

My opinion... as was stated this is the largest showing for Kentucky and it is terrific...  Hopefully we will continue to grow the participation.  I think the biggest issue with the results are 1. not enough preparation, 2.  not understanding the level of competition and 3.  not understanding the importance this particular event can be to their future... if they want wrestling in their future.    Again... in my opinion... this is exactly the type of tournament freshmen and sophmores should be attending so that when they are juniors and seniors they are better prepared to compete.  We will only see this sport get better and raise itself to the level of the Pennsylvania, Ohio, etc. if we compete at this level.  Would love to see more compete at Fargo, the Beast, etc.

Another big factor that has not been mentioned is our kids have to go nationals without their coach.  I know that other coaches from different schools can coach but they dont know what another wrestler can do.  This weekend in on particular match we couldnt find anyone to coach one of our matches, so we just had to pull a stranger into our corner.  This is rediculous!!!!  Other states could have their own coaches, and they could not understand why Kentucky wrestlers had to have other people besides their own coach in their corners.

Why can't the volunteer coaches of teams coach kids in the nationals?

    I know many of the larger teams have coaches that are not paid by the high school, but they attend almost every practice and every event.  These coaches should be very familliar with thier kids. 

    Since I will be a volunteer coach the next 5 years I would think that I could coach kids on the team that my son wrestles for.  He will not be in high school next year but the 4 years after that I plan on attending all practices and events.  Therefore I will know all the kids on the team and be able to coach them.  I would think that some of these other schools would have similar people on their team. 

    Would the KHSAA have any juristiction over these type of individuals?

I'm sure the volunteer coaches could coach... however they are not always available to attend these... they have jobs they can't always get off for events... and then be away from their families at their expense;... I know there are team coaches that go and help out... and even risk getting "in trouble" for coaching their kids.  It is totally ridiculous that they spend their money to attend events for their team on their own time but are not "allowed" to officially coach their team.    ...and we wonder why we hae trouble finding good people to coach... it isn't for the pay... I'm quite sure of that...

I would like to thank Coach Brown for going and coaching any Ky. wrestler who needed a coach when he wasnt allowed to coach his Trinity wrestlers at this event. Thank you Coach Brown you were a big help to my son and we were glad you were there.

The issue regarding coaches coaching their own kids at nationals was addressed last year after the tournament.  KHSAA would not budge.  I was told at last year's tournament that Ky and only one other state do not allow their coaches.  I"m not sure if this is true, but it came from a NHSCA official.  This absolutely puts our kid at a disadvantage.  I know that alot of the wrestlers worked hard over the last 4 weeks getting ready for nationals.  Trinity and Ryle held regular practices for the boys.  Many drove a couple of hours on Sundays to work out together in Cincinnati.  The competition was stiff in Virginia Beach this week.  Twice as many underclassmen were registered than ever before.  However, in the grand scheme of things, matches WERE won.  I don't think that many went

0-2.

Overall, I think Ky has a couple of problems to overcome:

1.  The coaching issue

2.  Our kids need to wrestle the boys of this level more often.  You can't do it once a year.

3.  Compared to some of the other states, our state tournament is really early.  Some of these kids are coming right off their tournament.

Why can't the volunteer coaches of teams coach kids in the nationals?

     I know many of the larger teams have coaches that are not paid by the high school, but they attend almost every practice and every event.  These coaches should be very familliar with thier kids. 

     Since I will be a volunteer coach the next 5 years I would think that I could coach kids on the team that my son wrestles for.  He will not be in high school next year but the 4 years after that I plan on attending all practices and events.  Therefore I will know all the kids on the team and be able to coach them.  I would think that some of these other schools would have similar people on their team. 

     Would the KHSAA have any juristiction over these type of individuals?

Bylaw 25. Limitation of Seasons

6) Involvement of Members of the Coaching Staff Out of

Season

Members of the high school coaching staff (paid or unpaid)

shall not be prohibited from sport specific observation

and evaluation (but not coaching) of any player who has

played for a grade nine (9) through grade twelve (12)

team (freshman, junior varsity, varsity) from the first

day of school through the last day of school provided such

play is under the direct control of the same local board

of education as the coach is employed and provided such

play is not in conflict with other KHSAA bylaws.

Depending on how you read this bylaw. 

    One way to read this would be that any person involved with a team is unable to coach an individual after the season.  Because it says unpaid coaches.  What does this mean?

    If a parent attends practices helps out in practice and sits in on matches when needed are they considered a coach of that school?  To be able to attend a high school practice, all you need is an officials liscense.  If so then I was a coach at two high schools last year, and my old assistant coach was also.

    Are high school baseball coaches not allowed to coach a knothole or little leage team? 

On a Good note, i am challanging the KHSAA about bylaw 25. Most of the coaches know that I started an online petition last year asking for input to my request to change the bylaw 25 to allow coaches to coach post season stating some of the same reasons that are posted.

I have written and talked with Jilian Tacket about our issues with this bylaw and he supports our venue. Although he does not have the authority himself to change this bylaw, Julian has given me guidence to what i need to do to have it changed. I have written a letter and have found an (AD) "sponsor" to represent us and request that bylaw 25 be changed to allow coaches to coach added to the docket of the next board of control meeting to be voted on. This AD is an asset to us as our sponsor because of this AD's background with wrestling. This sponsor also remains very active in wrestling during and after our season. Hopefully by the end of our season next year we will be able to coach our kids.

Thanks.  We really need this bylaw changed.  A group of parents petitioned KHSAA last year and got nowhere.  I'm glad to know the coaches were busy doing the same thing.

Depending on how you read this bylaw. 

     One way to read this would be that any person involved with a team is unable to coach an individual after the season.  Because it says unpaid coaches.  What does this mean?

     If a parent attends practices helps out in practice and sits in on matches when needed are they considered a coach of that school?  To be able to attend a high school practice, all you need is an officials liscense.  If so then I was a coach at two high schools last year, and my old assistant coach was also.

     Are high school baseball coaches not allowed to coach a knothole or little leage team? 

If a parent or voluteer coach helps at your practice, it involves them too. and of course it's not hard to know who is helping at practice because you are required to fill out a volunteer form on them so they can help.

Wt Finalist Finalist 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th

103 Meis-CO Gendreau-CA Camacho-CA Deleon-NJ Diaz-CA Dubay-ME Rosso-NY Ballantyne-UT

112 Langel-NJ Futrell-IL Acosta-CA Romero-WA Rickard-MI Sutter-WI Vandertoolen-UT Brown-PA

119 Keller-KS Cortese-PA Solberg-ND Jauch-IL Williams-CA Colon-NJ Cimato-PA Alarcon-CA

125 Albright-PA Sentes-FL Stanzione-NJ Stevens-MI Fusco-NJ Kelliher-MN Mangum-UT Morrill-UT

130 Reber-PA Oliver-Pa Valenti-NJ Kristich-PA Grabfelder-PA Garnett-DE Grassi-NJ Banks-CT

135 Skonieczny-OH Weber-MI Hucke-WI Walraven-SD Holloway-MO Mang-TN Pisani-CA Stinnett-MD

140 Edwards-VA Chamberlain-UT Van Dyk-NJ Terrazas-IL Koren-NC Brumley-MI Stevenson-CA Tasser-PA

145 Ramos-IL Mason-NJ Messerall-OH Polkowske-CO Clarke-NJ Cosgrove-IN Vinson-NY Joiner-MO

152 Condon-GA Johnson-ND Turner-PA Gregoris-NC Moore-OH Salazar-UT Kusar-OH Lopushanskiy-FL

160 Winston-NJ Bosak-PA Cubberly-OH Smith-UT Munoz-TX Held-FL Gresh-NY Edmunds-NV

171 Bennett-MI Collins-CA Burge-MI Roddy-OH Peltier-NJ Yohn-CO Meredith-CA Starks-WA

189 Geiger-OR Haynes-MO Budi-WI Norgren-MN Fager-UT Lines-MN Helbig-MI Bencomo-AZ

215 Dubose-MI Pettengill-MI Brand-MN Wilson-VA Delaney-FL Glore-MO Kahnke-MN Flavin-GA

285 Haddad-PA Colling-NY Maresh-MN Correll-MI Disney-KS Hiles-OH Zlatnik-KS Cook-VA

Plc Points Team  Plc Points Team  Plc Points Team  Plc Points Team

1 222.5 NJ  13 93.0 VA  25 42.5 SC  38 17 DE

2 205.0 MI  14 92.0 FL  26 42.0 TN  38 17 ME

3 200.5 PA  15 80.5 CO  27 39.0 AZ  40 16 NM

4 160.0 OH  16 72.0 ND  28 32.5 KY  41 15 OK

5 156.0 CA  17 66.5 GA  29 32.0 SD  42 14 VT

6 134.0 MN  18 62.0 NC  30 31.0 OR  42 14 WY

7 129.5 UT  19 54.5 MD  31 30.5 IA  44 13 ID

8 127.5 NY  20 52.0 WA  32 30.0 IN  45 10 MT

9 104.0 IL  21 48.5 MA  33 29.5 CT  46 8 NH

10 103.0 MO  22 47.0 TX  34 29.0 NV  47 5 HI

11 99.0 KS  23 44.0 AL  35 27.0 AK  48 0 MS

11 99.0 WI  23 44.0 NE  36 18.0 LA  48 0 RI

        36 18.0 WV   

If a parent or voluteer coach helps at your practice, it involves them too. and of course it's not hard to know who is helping at practice because you are required to fill out a volunteer form on them so they can help.

Guess it is a good thing I am not coaching any more because I never had any of my helpers fill out any forms. Never knew one existed.

And I find it hard to believe that all the alumni are filling out those forms when they come to practice and wrestle with the high school kids.

Guess it is a good thing I am not coaching any more because I never had any of my helpers fill out any forms. Never knew one existed.

And I find it hard to believe that all the alumni are filling out those forms when they come to practice and wrestle with the high school kids.

Yes, a lot of coaches/teams bend these khsaa rules.  Good for them.  Our wrestling community needs to stick together on this, and just not snitch on coaches trying to help their kids out in the off season.  Until the KHSAA gets with the times, and realizes they are SCREWING our kids with rules like this, we need to just overlook this type of stuff in my opinion.

The other thing is the season being so early.....that definitely hurts our state at nationals.  Indiana's youth & m.s. season really doesn't get started in full swing until around January.  Their state is around March I believe, so they go to all the national tournaments in March & April in peak performance mode.  Ohio's & PA's state tournaments are later too.  Just the making weight aspect of this stacks the deck against our kids.  Not sure what the answer is here, other than having the coaches complain to the KHSAA? 

Guess it is a good thing I am not coaching any more because I never had any of my helpers fill out any forms. Never knew one existed.

And I find it hard to believe that all the alumni are filling out those forms when they come to practice and wrestle with the high school kids.

I'm just telling you what we have to do in hardin county. It doesn't mean we get all the forms!!

I'm just going to put this out there:

1) We can't expect our kids to close the gap on other states at national tournaments with a couple of more weeks of preparation because of the timing of state tournament. Nothing is better than mat time. Growing up in Ohio, I was introduced to it in the 4th grade. It is awesome that we had such a large contingent of underclassmen but, the real impact is going to come from the kids that competed in Danville.

2) Regarding the KHSAA, it governs all sanctioned sports and is difficult if not impossible to grant an exception to one sport over an other. Think of the inequities that could arise if every basketball, soccer, or volleyball team would coach their high school players in AAU or club competition. Relative to the volunteer or graduated wrestlers on the mat, here

This rule why Michigan had no Freshman, Sophomores, or Juniors at the Nationals. Seniors go because their eligibility is done. If you watch some of the videos of Mi Seniors wrestling this past weekend, you will see a Coach that has a mask on so he can't be ID. Not sure why they have this rule.

http://www.flocasts.org/flowrestling/coverage.php?c=231&w=states&v=MI&id=12133

http://www.flocasts.org/flowrestling/coverage.php?c=231&w=states&v=MI&id=12088

D.

This rule why Michigan had no Freshman, Sophomores, or Juniors at the Nationals. Seniors go because their eligibility is done. If you watch some of the videos of Mi Seniors wrestling this past weekend, you will see a Coach that has a mask on so he can't be ID. Not sure why they have this rule.

http://www.flocasts.org/flowrestling/coverage.php?c=231&w=states&v=MI&id=12133

http://www.flocasts.org/flowrestling/coverage.php?c=231&w=states&v=MI&id=12088

D.

Sorry Coach Brown, even if you were to wear a mask, I think you would still be identifiable.

Sorry Coach Brown, even if you were to wear a mask, I think you would still be identifiable.

No way. With his average stature, he would never be picked out.

I do see a loophole in the rule.

    It says sports specific.  I would contend that Freestyle, Greco roman, and Sombo are not the same sport as high school wrestling.  Different rules for each. 

    This would be no different than a baseball coach coaching a softball team.  Or the wrestling coach coaching a karate, or more closely a judo team.

    Can't the boys basketball coach open the gym for the girls basketball team and vice versa?

    As for nationals.  Football has spring football why can't wrestling have spring wrestling?  We make sure it corresponds with the national tournament.

    tiltfor,  The question of how can Ky wrestlers be more competitive nationally may be down the list.  It could change drastically if parents take this to a different level.  They could file a claim that they are being discriminated against.  Kids are loosing possible scholarships because of being a Ky athlete.  Without being able to compete on the national level Ky wrestlers are loosing possible scholarships. 

I do see a loophole in the rule.

     It says sports specific.  I would contend that Freestyle, Greco roman, and Sombo are not the same sport as high school wrestling.  Different rules for each. 

     This would be no different than a baseball coach coaching a softball team.  Or the wrestling coach coaching a karate, or more closely a judo team.

     Can't the boys basketball coach open the gym for the girls basketball team and vice versa?

     As for nationals.  Football has spring football why can't wrestling have spring wrestling?  We make sure it corresponds with the national tournament.

     tiltfor,  The question of how can Ky wrestlers be more competitive nationally may be down the list.  It could change drastically if parents take this to a different level.  They could file a claim that they are being discriminated against.  Kids are loosing possible scholarships because of being a Ky athlete.  Without being able to compete on the national level Ky wrestlers are loosing possible scholarships. 

BL - you're on a role today, those are some great points.  I've never understood how football gets away with spring football.  Do the h.s. coaches coach those teams?  As far as fs/gr goes though, a h.s. coach told me once that Kentucky does not distinguish between fs/gr wrestling and folkstyle wrestling.  Other states do, I think Ohio does.  Not sure if this is true, but that's what i was told. 

You're on to something with the lawsuit, because our kids are definitely at a disadvantage here.  We had several Kentucky kids that if our state was pushed back later, I'm sure they would have placed.  Also, not having your coach in the corner is a huge disadvantage if you ask me.  I think i'm going to go cry.  Possibly another temporary fix to this is to have people pitch in and hire a couple of coaches for the nationals.

I do see a loophole in the rule.

     It says sports specific.  I would contend that Freestyle, Greco roman, and Sombo are not the same sport as high school wrestling.  Different rules for each. 

     This would be no different than a baseball coach coaching a softball team.  Or the wrestling coach coaching a karate, or more closely a judo team.

     Can't the boys basketball coach open the gym for the girls basketball team and vice versa?

     As for nationals.  Football has spring football why can't wrestling have spring wrestling?  We make sure it corresponds with the national tournament.

     tiltfor,  The question of how can Ky wrestlers be more competitive nationally may be down the list.  It could change drastically if parents take this to a different level.  They could file a claim that they are being discriminated against.  Kids are loosing possible scholarships because of being a Ky athlete.  Without being able to compete on the national level Ky wrestlers are loosing possible scholarships. 

Bulldog, I asked that question before. The response was wrestling is wrestling. don't matter what kind it is. We have a shot to change it. I'm just not very patient waiting.

I do see a loophole in the rule.

     It says sports specific.  I would contend that Freestyle, Greco roman, and Sombo are not the same sport as high school wrestling.  Different rules for each. 

snip

     tiltfor,  The question of how can Ky wrestlers be more competitive nationally may be down the list.  It could change drastically if parents take this to a different level.  They could file a claim that they are being discriminated against.  Kids are loosing possible scholarships because of being a Ky athlete.  Without being able to compete on the national level Ky wrestlers are loosing possible scholarships. 

Bulldog leader, thinking like a lawyer is more likely to bring change than being the voice of a victim IMO. When it comes to the educational bureaucracy we live with, the only thing that speaks louder than $$s is parents.

pioneer,

I think your thinking changes when you become a parent more than a coach, such as I have.  (Plus I am on spring break and don't feel like completing the "HONEY DO" list my wife left me.

I have had these questions on my mind for a long time, but didn't look into them becuase of being a coach.

Now that my focus in entirely on my son I can look at these questions from a different point of view.  I will tell you this.  In 2 years when my son is in high school, I will attend practice and will attend every one of his wrestling events and sit in his corner.  If and when he wrestles in the national tournament I will also sit in his corner, and any other team mate of his that is there,  and without a Rey Mysterio mask.  What if anything can the KHSAA impose on me for coaching my own son or his team mates at a national tourney?  If I get my officials license then I cannot be banned from high school practices. 

One of the rules of being an official is that they can attend wrestling practices so to be able to keep up with the new techniques and such.  (This is how I got around my alumni attending my practices when my school told me they could not practice with my wrestlers.)

A lawsuit however scares me.  It could hurt our sport in Ky more than it could help.  I know this is the avenue they took in getting wrestling back in the colleges of KY.

Bulldog, I asked that question before. The response was wrestling is wrestling. don't matter what kind it is. We have a shot to change it. I'm just not very patient waiting.

That's the exact response i heard from the coach i talked to.  I think it was coach bankemper who told me this, but I can't remember for sure.  The ironic thing is, these rules may have had great intentions originally, but as they have developed, they just hurt the kids in our state.  

all of the seniors wrestled well. Its too bad none of us could place, but Kentucky's seniors gave coaches more of a reason to look towards Kentucky for college wrestlers

COACH SUPERVISED OUT-OF-SEASON WORKOUTS

Wrestling coach suspended for practice violation

News Online 01/06

BY STAFF WRITER

A High School wrestling coach was suspended yesterday for the remainder of the season and placed on probation next year for violating State Interscholastic Athletic Association's rules regarding out-of-season practice.

A disgruntled High School wrestling parent, whom school officials would not identify, called the State Interscholastic Athletic Association about the rules violation earlier this month.

Following a week-long investigation, school administrators disciplined the popular and one of the state's most respected coaches. "His whole life is wrestling," the high school athletic director said. "He's a hard-working, totally dedicated person to our program. His love of wrestling and passion for the sport is second to none."

The coach supervised several workouts with some of his high school wrestlers at a community center in late September and early October, the athletic director said. The local recreation department ran those open-gym sessions, which were not affiliated with the high school.

Under the State Interscholastic Athletic Association's rules for the academic year, wrestling coaches are permitted to supervise practices with their student-athletes only during the season, from the day after Thanksgiving to the conclusion of the state tournament. Coaches are free to interact with their wrestlers during the summer months.

School officials imposed sanctions on the coach based upon the State Association's recommendations. The athletic director said he will be welcomed back to coach next year. "We haven't lost faith in him as our wrestling coach," the athletic director said. "He went overboard probably in the fact that he was trying to help kids. It was just a matter of poor judgment on his part. It wasn't done intentionally to break any rules. . . . There's rules that have to be followed and nobody is above the rules."

Rumors of coaches breaking the state's out-of-season practice rules in all sports have forever swirled, but that the State Interscholastic Athletic Association, which is not an investigatory agency, can't look into potential violations until a formal complaint is received.

The team will not have to forfeit any of its victories or upcoming matches, and will remain eligible for the postseason. Two assistant coaches will share head-coaching responsibilities in the coach's absence.

"The bottom line is that our athletes will continue their season," the athletic director said. "We are happy about that. That's really the most important thing - that the kids are still competing and having a good season. We regret that this ever happened. There is no question about it. Nobody comes out of this looking any good. It's an unfortunate situation for everybody. We are certainly not happy about it because you try to educate your coaches as best as possible. I think this is every athletic director's nightmare, something like this and (athletic) eligibility."

The athletic director held a closed-door meeting with the high school wrestling parents last night to explain the circumstances regarding the coach's suspension and to answer any of their questions. "The meeting went well," he said. "We told them that we are going to do our best to move forward and to prevent this from ever happening again."

Note - All names in the article have been removed. One of the reasons we post this article is to show the differences among state associations regarding out-of-season coaching regulations. Also, for those who might be thinking about bending the rules: Don't!

This must be 1 of the 3 states.

good thing I'm not a coach any more, nor will be for at least 5 years.  :evil: :-D

Also, for those who might be thinking about bending the rules: Don't!

If not for the greatest bunch of rule breakers this world has ever known. The Founding Fathers of the United States of America.  We would not have what we have today. 

According to them "whenever any form of government becomes destructive" "it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it"  "it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government and to provide new guards for their future security".. (Declaration of Independence)

I in no way put myself on their level of greatness but I know for certain one thing.  I shall not "go quietly into the night." Those of you that know me I do have a loud mouth.  :-D

I wonder if the Coach would say it was worth it or not?

As far as seniors go we didn't have any all americans but we did well. Elliott Martin and Mason Reid were closest to placing. Martin went 2-2, making it to the 3rd round of the winners bracket where he lost 2-0 to the california runner up, he hit a peterson at the end and was awarded no points(the same thing that happend to harrison courtney last year). Mason lost 5-4 in the second round after teching in his first round match. He beat some tough kids in the wrestle backs. They both went out in the same round. Elliott was offered a scholarship to Lindenwood in St. Louis where he will be intending. I'm sure Mason was given some offers as well.

As far as seniors go we didn't have any all americans but we did well. Elliott Martin and Mason Reid were closest to placing. Martin went 2-2, making it to the 3rd round of the winners bracket where he lost 2-0 to the california runner up, he hit a peterson at the end and was awarded no points(the same thing that happend to harrison courtney last year). Mason lost 5-4 in the second round after teching in his first round match. He beat some tough kids in the wrestle backs. They both went out in the same round. Elliott was offered a scholarship to Lindenwood in St. Louis where he will be intending. I'm sure Mason was given some offers as well.

That's great that Elliot will be wrestling in college, but even better that he was offered a scholarship by school besides Cumberland or Campbellsville