now popping back up in middleschool wresling are three powerhouses soloman &samuel vanover and sam preston all three are showing themselfs at the highschool level preston wrestling this weekend in middleschool placeing first with out even trying and the vanover brothers are going to be wrestling 185 & 230 pounds and preston will be wrestling 165 pounds

preston is going to be at the state dules in hope of sending there very good team to a state championship with the 2 other great wrestlers they have jayce carr and matt hall

You know thats ok if the kid has never won a middle school state championship,but if he  has what good is he getting out of a match he din't have to try in.Its either for his or his parents ego.I'd rather see my son lose a good close match to a good wrestler,than pin a bad wrestler quick.Neither wrestler gets anything out of it.I think that is when a kid should move up or travel out of state for better matches.It will only help him if he plans to further expand his wrestling skills.

I agree with whs98 if a kid is wrestling all year at varsity level why go to lower competition other than for own or coaches egos. I always had pride for my team and school, did whatever i could to help. BUT, if i wrestled all year for my coach only to have to go a different class or not at all because above reason I would lose alot of respect for my coach and program. Because then it's all about winning and not about teaching and developing more young men about respect and dedication.

For those of you who disagree with a kid who wrestles varsity as a Middle schooler, then shows up and wins Middle School Regional and State, I have a situation for you. Suppose that a kid has no other kid in the middle school practice room to challenge or push him. What benefit is he going to get from being in that room every day.? Isn't the whole purpose of having a more advanced middle school kid wrestling varsity so that he can be exposed to better competition on a daily basis in the practice room as well as in tournaments and duals/tri meets? So rather than a kid wrestling middle school and going undefeated or maybe only loosing 1 or 2 matches throughout the year, he wrestles varsity and wins 60 or maybe even only 50% of his matches. Why should this kid not be able to compete for a Middle School State title just like every other middle school kid? Would you just prefer that he wrestle middle school all year and just dominate? To me, an advanced middle school kid wrestling varsity makes it better for everyone in the way that other kids are winning and placing at tournaments where otherwise they would not in the absence of the more advanced kid who is wrestling varsity. Also the more advanced kid continues to improve being exposed to better competition and being pushed harder so the level of wrestling in our state progresses rather than this kid just leveling off and not improving for a year being unchallenged.

the kids are in middle school. let them wrestle in middle school tournaments. this is like saying just because murton dominated almost everyone he wrestled, he shouldnt have been aloud to wrestle highschool, he should have had to wrestle at the college level.

For those of you who disagree with a kid who wrestles varsity as a Middle schooler, then shows up and wins Middle School Regional and State, I have a situation for you. Suppose that a kid has no other kid in the middle school practice room to challenge or push him. What benefit is he going to get from being in that room every day.? Isn't the whole purpose of having a more advanced middle school kid wrestling varsity so that he can be exposed to better competition on a daily basis in the practice room as well as in tournaments and duals/tri meets? So rather than a kid wrestling middle school and going undefeated or maybe only loosing 1 or 2 matches throughout the year, he wrestles varsity and wins 60 or maybe even only 50% of his matches. Why should this kid not be able to compete for a Middle School State title just like every other middle school kid? Would you just prefer that he wrestle middle school all year and just dominate? To me, an advanced middle school kid wrestling varsity makes it better for everyone in the way that other kids are winning and placing at tournaments where otherwise they would not in the absence of the more advanced kid who is wrestling varsity. Also the more advanced kid continues to improve being exposed to better competition and being pushed harder so the level of wrestling in our state progresses rather than this kid just leveling off and not improving for a year being unchallenged.

Exactly!  Well said.

For those of you who disagree with a kid who wrestles varsity as a Middle schooler, then shows up and wins Middle School Regional and State, I have a situation for you. Suppose that a kid has no other kid in the middle school practice room to challenge or push him. What benefit is he going to get from being in that room every day.? Isn't the whole purpose of having a more advanced middle school kid wrestling varsity so that he can be exposed to better competition on a daily basis in the practice room as well as in tournaments and duals/tri meets? So rather than a kid wrestling middle school and going undefeated or maybe only loosing 1 or 2 matches throughout the year, he wrestles varsity and wins 60 or maybe even only 50% of his matches. Why should this kid not be able to compete for a Middle School State title just like every other middle school kid? Would you just prefer that he wrestle middle school all year and just dominate? To me, an advanced middle school kid wrestling varsity makes it better for everyone in the way that other kids are winning and placing at tournaments where otherwise they would not in the absence of the more advanced kid who is wrestling varsity. Also the more advanced kid continues to improve being exposed to better competition and being pushed harder so the level of wrestling in our state progresses rather than this kid just leveling off and not improving for a year being unchallenged.

pretty much says it all.

Well, if you want your middle school son to get varsity exposure, then why would you have your son miss 2 varsity weekend tournaments in order to wrestle middle school region and state?

My son was varsity as a 7th and 8th grader. Neither his coach nor myself wanted him to miss out on varsity experience so he could go dominate other middle schoolers. Rather than attend middle school region and state, he wrestled 10 varsity matches in Ohio. Just like your beliefs about the importance of high school matches,  I choose the long term investment rather than send him to 2 middle school tournaments. Furthermore, he was part of the varsity team and the team expected his presence with them. I choose not to play both sides of the field. But, hey, that was just my preference. Others can do as they choose.

I guess some of you didn't read my first statement.If the kid has not won a middle school championship I think he owes that to himself,but the statement I was referring to before mine was about a wrestler winning without even trying-then I think its time to move on.

Everyone has reasons for doing what they do.  And everyone likes to live a little box and think every situation is the same as their own. But the fact is, everyone makes decisions based on their own particular situation. I'm guessing the people against the best JH wrestlers being at State have an agenda of their own.

:cry:

Everyone has reasons for doing what they do.  And everyone likes to live a little box and think every situation is the same as their own. But the fact is, everyone makes decisions based on their own particular situation. I'm guessing the people against the best JH wrestlers being at State have an agenda of their own.

:cry:

Good point.  This has been debated by the m.s. association in the past and rules were presented to prevent kids with certain # of varsity matches from wrestling m.s.  It should be up to the coaches & parents and based on what is best for the kid.  Besides, if your team wrestles out of state much aren't m.s. aged kids in our state prohibited from wrestling varsity in other states?

Yes, in Ohio only 9th graders are allowed to wrestle. We adopted a, don't ask don't tell policy. Hey, it worked for us, I just wanted him to wrestle. No one questioned it.

[ I-pinned-em-all 

"Yes, in Ohio only 9th graders are allowed to wrestle. We adopted a, don't ask don't tell policy. Hey, it worked for us, I just wanted him to wrestle. No one questioned it. ......."

No thats not correct sir. Our coach got a ruling on this after our middle school kids were allowed to wrestle but not allowed to be counted for points at an Ohio team tournament this year. He contacted the OHSAA, and was told our middle school kids CAN IN FACT wrestle high school tournaments in Ohio because being a school or club from out of state OHSAA rule do not apply. Even 7th grade kids can wrestle varsity matches in Ohio. As you said you chose not to wrestle your son in the Region and State tournaments so that he could get 10 varsity matches in Ohio and i certainly respect that. I want my son as well as the level of wrestling for our state to improve but yet our coach and myself want him to be able to compete for a State Championship against other kids his own age, and the rules that are in place at this time allow that, so why so much negativity from others who disagree? I will say it again..This is withing the Middle School Associations Rules!

Well, if you want your middle school son to get varsity exposure, then why would you have your son miss 2 varsity weekend tournaments in order to wrestle middle school region and state?

My son was varsity as a 7th and 8th grader. Neither his coach nor myself wanted him to miss out on varsity experience so he could go dominate other middle schoolers. Rather than attend middle school region and state, he wrestled 10 varsity matches in Ohio. Just like your beliefs about the importance of high school matches,  I choose the long term investment rather than send him to 2 middle school tournaments. Furthermore, he was part of the varsity team and the team expected his presence with them. I choose not to play both sides of the field. But, hey, that was just my preference. Others can do as they choose.

Chill out refdad, none of my comments were negative and certainly not judgemental of you. I will refer you to the last 2 sentences from my previous quote. I pasted my quote above for your convenience.

I was only providing meaningful dialogue and other opinions on this topic given my son was in a very similar situation.  This is what I choose best for my son, you chose what is best for your son. I wouldn't expect any loving father to do anything less. I never based my decisions what is best for my son on popularity and opinion poles, especially from people on this site.

As far as out-of-state middle schoolers being allowed to wrestle varsity in Ohio, at this time, I will respectfully disagree with your assumption. Your comments may be "factual", but they appear illogical to me. I will check myself and get back to you what I found out. A certified Ohio referee functioning under the state bylaws should be bound by those bylaws. I would assume their officiating insurance mandates they follow the Ohio rules. Ohio has chosen not to allow non high school kids to participate in varsity sports. If a ref knowingly officiated a non high school kid and the kid got hurt, they could be held liable. Remember, for a match to be officiated in Ohio at a sanctioned match, it would have to follow Ohio rules.

I-pinned-em-all;... your right in the fact that most of us love our kids and would go to great lengths to do what we feel is best for our children. I respect your opinion and in fact welcome it. Your comments specifically were not critical of our situation but as you said yourself, this site is full of negative comments directed toward kids and parents by people who happen to have a difference of opinion on a particular situation. Specifically, "holding kids back" as well as this subject. Bottom line for me is no matter how I  feel about something, right or wrong, if it is in line with the rules of any association (KHSAA or Middle School association or even youth) then people really should just accept it or show up at meetings and voice their opinion or contact your representative and do their part to get that particular rule changed rather than just spouting criticism.

As for the issue of middle schoolers wrestling varsity, as you said, it was the head official that would not allow our middle schoolers to be scored for team points and tagged their matches as "exhibition matches" but our head coach has an email from the OHSAA ,quoting rules stating that teams and or clubs that are not withing the state of Ohio do not fall under OHSAA rules therefore middle schoolers may wrestle varsity meets in Ohio. As you might suspect, our coach now carries this letter with him to every tournament we attend in Ohio.

Refdad, I just read the entire OSHAA rules. Rules 1-1-2, 1-5-1 and 1-5-2 speak specifically to the contrary to what you said. The bylaws specifically address practices, scrimages, etc. The bylaws are very specific and do apply to any activity sponsored by OSHAA. Even exhibition matches are specifically addressed.

Later in the bylaws it addresses what happens when an ineligible athlete is caught. The penalties for the coaches and refs are severe and can include financial penalties.

The head ref may have allowed it, but the written bylaws from OHSAA strictly prohibit exactly what we are talking about.

The only way a 7th and 8th grader is allowed to participate in a sponsored event, is if the athlete turned 15 on August 1st of the current year.

An eligible Ohio athlete is not permitted to wrestle an ineligible athlete even if they are out of state. The bylaws are very specific.

I-pinned-em-all:.. to that I can only say that you would most certainly expect that Hank Zaborniack who answered this question specifically himself and the OHSAA staff member who then forwarded this info to our coach to know what they are talking about.. In the mean time I will expect that the documentation that we have from the OHSAA will be enough to satisfy the officials at the events  we attend the remainder of this year.??? :|

Indiana I thought had the same rule as Ohio. No middle schoolers in Indiana. Be sure to check if you cross the river that way.

tiltfor3... thanks for the warning, but I dont think we have anything scheduled in Indiana the remainder of this year. After this year, I personally wont have to worry about it, but dont want to see it be a problem in years to come for other kids on our team

refdad - you  have no idea how bad I want IPEA to be wrong on this.  Please find out he is wrong and post on here.  It would mean a great deal to me. 

Signed,

Your friend

There has to be some sort of reciprocity agreement between states that if a kid is eligible to compete in varsity in 1 bordering state, they can compete in out of state competition.  Otherwise, I would suspect a huge problem with Indiana's age eligibility requirement.  In Indiana, a kid is eligible to compete in a sport as long as they are not 20 prior to or on the date of that sport's state finals. 

There has to be some sort of reciprocity agreement between states that if a kid is eligible to compete in varsity in 1 bordering state, they can compete in out of state competition.  Otherwise, I would suspect a huge problem with Indiana's age eligibility requirement.  In Indiana, a kid is eligible to compete in a sport as long as they are not 20 prior to or on the date of that sport's state finals. 

Sorry pioneer_pride, but you should know me well enough by now to know I am seldom if ever wrong. I assure you, no letter allowing Kentucky middle wrestlers to participate in Ohio sanctioned varsity sports exists. Especially a letter from OHSAA, the bylaws specifically addresses the very topic of discussion. Nothing supercedes the bylaws.

Sorry pioneer_pride, but you should know me well enough by now to know I am seldom if ever wrong. I assure you, no letter allowing Kentucky middle wrestlers to participate in Ohio sanctioned varsity sports exists. Especially a letter from OHSAA, the bylaws specifically addresses the very topic of discussion. Nothing supercedes the bylaws.

Yeah, and it is really hard to imagine they would send a letter specifically stating you don't have to follow the bylaws.  I know any time I have asked Jullian Tackett a question like this he refuses to address it in writing.

pioneer pride; if the coach is willing to allow me to make a copy of what he has from Mr. Z and the OHSAA I will most certainly share it with you amd anyone one else who cares to see it

Signed,

Your friend

Sorry pioneer_pride, but you should know me well enough by now to know I am seldom if ever wrong. I assure you, no letter allowing Kentucky middle wrestlers to participate in Ohio sanctioned varsity sports exists. Especially a letter from OHSAA, the bylaws specifically addresses the very topic of discussion. Nothing supercedes the bylaws.

I know you never admit when you're wrong.  :evil: :evil:  I know refdad and his coach well enough to know they wouldn't make up something from the OHSAA that clears their m.s. varsity wrestler to compete in tourneys in Ohio.  If they say they have it, I don't doubt it.

So do you believe that if an out of state kid is not eligible by OHSAA bylaws, but they are eligible by KHSAA or IHSAA bylaws, that they can not compete in a tourney in Ohio?  That doesn't make sense to me.  How would the OHSAA even know if a kid is eligible?  What about an Indiana kid that turns 19 on January 1, 2008....and enters a tourney in Ohio (or Kentucky) in January?  He's eligible in Indiana, but he's too old in Ohio & Kentucky.

My younger brothers went through the same thing when they were in m.s., they were told they could not compete in Ohio varsity tourneys.  So I know coaches in Cincinnati believe this.  I'm just curious if they are misinformed on their bylaws.

refdad and pioneer-pride, I corresponded today with Dr. Moore, assistant commissioner of OHSAA, regarding the issue we have been discussing. I will gladly forward the emails to both of you and even post it on this site if other parties are interested.

Regarding our middle schoolers wrestling in Ohio varsity matches, OHSAA states they leave it entirely to the local school/coaches if they specifically will allow the middle schoolers to participate. If the local school/coach chooses to allow or disallow the Kentucky wrestler to participate is the final answer.  OHSAA does not prevent out-of-state middle schoolers from wrestling in Ohio varsity matches.

OHSAA prohibits any form of exhibition competition.

As it pertains to our discussion, if an Ohio coach/principle states it is OK then the Ky middle schooler can wrestle. If the sponsoring Ohio coach/principle states it is not OK then they can NOT wrestle. Therefore, a Ky coach will have to ask permission from the Ohio coach and hope the Ohio coach didn't have the same impression I had regarding the bylaws. The are not mandated to allow the middle schooler to wrestle. If we wrestle in Ohio, we are at the mercy of the Ohio coach/principle. Exhibition matches are strictly prohibited.

Pioneer_pride, it occurs very rarely, very very rarely, but it appears I was incorrect regarding OHSAA prohibiting Ky wrestlers from wrestling. You may gloat until, probably tomorrow, when I easily prove you wrong on something else. But for today, this Bud is for you!

Pioneer_pride, it occurs very rarely, very very rarely, but it appears I was incorrect regarding OHSAA prohibiting Ky wrestlers from wrestling. You may gloat until, probably tomorrow, when I easily prove you wrong on something else. But for today, this Bud is for you!

I'm sorry IPEA...could you repeat that in my good ear?  It SOUNDED like you were saying i was right??  That aint a bud...that's some Dom Perignon!!

i-pinned-em-all.... thanks for the, "I was incorrect regarding OHSAA prohibiting Ky wrestlers from wrestling" statement......

  I have never disputed the fact and take your word for the fact that exhibition matches are strictly prohibited by the OHSAA. I only stated what happened in our particular case that brought this whole "middle schoolers wrestling varsity in Ohio" thing to discussion to begin with, in which we received "official clarification from the OHSAA", and that is when it was discovered that we had three middle school kids wrestling varsity, their matches were put out of weight class order and wrestled last in the dual and not scored for team points. This situation was obviously not handled correctly the the head official to comply with OHSAA bylaws. My only dispute was wheather or not middle school kids are eligible to compete in varsity meets in the state of Ohio. I respect a man that can admit when he is wrong. God knows I do a lot!

You must be married then. The only time i'm right is when my wife is not around!!!!!

LMAO at dagger!

I'm taking it you don't have anyone that can compete with Solomon or Samuel Vanover or Sam Preston so you want them to stay out of the middle school tournament.  What about the other kids that wrestle at the high school level?  If you don't think they can win it I guess it is O.K. for them to compete.  You are specifically listing certain wrestlers.  Why don't you address the topic as a whole.  Some of these kids are at programs that can't get enough kids out for middle school and that is the only choice they have is to wrestle at the high school level or not wrestle at all.  You could always try to start another division and leave out all the kids that wrestle in anything other than middle school.

i-pinned-em-all.... thanks for the, "I was incorrect regarding OHSAA prohibiting Ky wrestlers from wrestling" statement......

  I have never disputed the fact and take your word for the fact that exhibition matches are strictly prohibited by the OHSAA. I only stated what happened in our particular case that brought this whole "middle schoolers wrestling varsity in Ohio" thing to discussion to begin with, in which we received "official clarification from the OHSAA", and that is when it was discovered that we had three middle school kids wrestling varsity, their matches were put out of weight class order and wrestled last in the dual and not scored for team points. This situation was obviously not handled correctly the the head official to comply with OHSAA bylaws. My only dispute was wheather or not middle school kids are eligible to compete in varsity meets in the state of Ohio. I respect a man that can admit when he is wrong. God knows I do a lot!

First, I'm not a lawyer but there is some legal jargon that needs to understood. The commissioner was very specific, Ky middle schoolers (KMS) are NOT eligible and not ineligible. It is up to the sponsoring coach whether to allow the KMS to wrestle. Ohio coaches are under no obligation to allow KMS to wrestle. So it is not cut and dry. If the sponsoring coach says they're not wrestling, the wrestler has no right to wrestle in Ohio. Therefore, a competitive coach may want his team to win and say no to the stud KMS, thereby, creating a forfeit. The coach is well within his rights, under OHSAA, to decide.

In other words, the KMS has no rights in Ohio. Just be careful when dealing with Ohio coaches.  Honey-vs-vinegar will likely allow you to achieve your goals of having the KMS wrestle.

Interestingly, Campbell County had a dual with Ohio Mt. Healthy tonight. I spoke with their coach and Coach Bankemper, neither of them knew of this. The Mt. Healthy coach was adamant that KSM are not allowed to wrestle in Ohio. He was obviously not correct, but he certainly was not uncertain about his position. This coach would, no doubt, say no to a KMS wrestling at his sponsored match.

:mrgreen:

Storm23.....what weights are the kids you mentioned at?

i-pinned-em-all,

Obviously its WAY more important to you that you prove your point about this, and that you be right. Our coach forwarded me the email and I have personally read it but deleted it afterwards. I will ask our coach to forward it to me again and get a copy to our buddy pioneerpride, and he can then forward it on to you. The verbage in the email states something to the effect that those rules preventing middle school kids from competing in varsity events dont apply to scholls and or clubs not from Ohio. No where withing what I read makes mention to the coach or principal having the decision as to if kids may or may not compete.

Storm23.....what weights are the kids you mentioned at?

i-pinned-em-all,

Obviously its WAY more important to you that you prove your point about this, and that you be right.

Now you see why it's so important to me to win just this ONE debate with IPEA.  I give dude.  You win, I submit.

Congrats refdad, you are now an authority on OHSAA bylaws. Your evidenced based quotes are indisputable.  Best of luck should your wrestlers enter an Ohio tournament. I am sure all Ohio coaches will absolutely see it your way.  It's been an interesting exchange.

Just based on reading these posts I don't think that it was refdads intention to be the authority on  OHSAA bylaws. I think it is yours!! :-D

Just based on reading these posts I don't think that it was refdads intention to be the authority on  OHSAA bylaws. I think it is yours!! :-D

Agreed!!!

Ok! I guess I will comment on this subject. I am the Coach of Whitley County where Samuel and Solomon reside. These two are on my Varsity roster and wrestle every tournament and dual match we have because they are the best I have at their respective weights. They are also the best middle schoolers I have at their middle school respective weights. It's hilarous that anyone would even suggest the two of them to not compete at the middle school tournaments just because they are good. Should we tell Harrison Courtney to not compete in High school this year, just beacause he wont be touched. This is the same aspect of what some of you are implying. Does Solomon and Samuel have a great shot at winning the title? Yes! Does that mean that they can't be beat? No! Sorry if it makes some people mad that they will be competeing for a Middle School Title this year, but they will.

IPEA, refpop, Pride, and those interested.  By the way Pioneer, you owe me have of what IPEA owes you for losing this bet.  This letter comes from the OHSAA. 

Coach:

The situation if confusing in that the regulation regarding participation with, participation on the same team with or competition against 9th through 12th grade students is for our GRADES 7th and 8th grade. This means that none of our members schools 7th and 8th grade teams can participate with or against 9-12 graders. BUT our high school teams don

FYI.. This is the correspondence I had with Dr. Moore, a commissioner with OHSAA.  People can draw their own conclusions.

First email:

Thank you for your time. I have one, possibly two, simple questions.  We have several 7th and 8th grade Kentucky athletes, under the age of 15, attending our KHSAA school. Our team frequently wrestles in Ohio at OHSAA sponsored tournaments.

1.  Are our 7th and 8th grade athletes allowed to wrestle in Ohio against an Ohio varsity wrestler at an OHSAA sanctioned meet. Given we live in Kentucky, do we have  to follow Ohio eligibility rules.

2. If they are not eligible officially, can they enter a tournament or meet and wrestle as an "exhibition" match and not have their points counted for our team. They would still advance through the brackets, but not have their points count.

Thank you in advance for your response.

1st response:

We have no jurisdiction over whether students below high school level compete against high school students in or out of Ohio.  That decision would remain a local school decision.  Conversely, our middle school students (grade 7-8) are not permitted to compete with or against students in high school or below grade 7. 

Ohio schools are not permitted to offer exhibition competition.  All students must be eligible in all respects in order to compete in contests in which Ohio schools are involved.  Hope this helps.

Best regards,

Debbie

2nd email:

Dr. Moore,

Does that mean a 14 year old, 8th grade, eligible Kentucky wrestler, is allowed to compete in Ohio against a varsity wrestler at an Ohio sanctioned tournament/event?

When you stat,e all participants must be eligible, does that mean Kentucky wrestlers need to be eligible by Ohio criteria or their own state's criteria?

2nd response:

When I stipulate that all students must meet eligibility standards I am referring to all students who attend schools that are members of the OHSAA.  I am fully aware that some states, including Kentucky, permit students below high school age to participate in high school sports.  It would be the decision of the member school sponsoring the competition in Ohio as to whether or not these non-high school Kentucky students may participate.  If an Ohio school travels to Kentucky to participate, it is assumed when the contract is signed that they will play by the rules established by the KHSAA including their eligibility standards.  That is not an issue for the OHSAA. 

As I stated, our middle school students are NOT permitted to participate with or against high school students regardless of where the competition takes place.  But we have no control over KHSAA rules. 

Best regards,

Debbie

FYI.. This is the correspondence I had with Dr. Moore, a commissioner with OHSAA.  People can draw their own conclusions.

My conclusion is i win.  You need to meet up with mano y mano and tell him what he won.  mano y mano, because i'm such a good friend...you can have the whole prize!!!  btw - IPEA give him the double or nothing prize as well.  i'm not stingy.

IPEA:... Sir, I unlike you have no interest in being the ALL KNOWING AUTHORITY on EVERYTHING!!!! I can, and willing do admit when I am wrong and never attempted to portray myself as an authority on anyting. I merely tried to explain the gist of the correspondence our coach received from the OHSAA. If you read mano y mano's post you will see that this is basically what I attempted to convey last night but I certainly could not recite it verbatim since I had deleted the email. Also I see no reason to turn this site into a forum for insults from snide, sarcastic remarks from one parent to another but I suppose that tells us all something about your character. Good luck to you and your son and your team this season. I will leave all rules interpretation to the expert, obviously being you from this point!

mano y mano: thanks for the input coach!

Sounds to me like they are both saying the same thing.  In regards to the host school makes the decision, that would be in the contract that they send to the Ky school.  

If an Ohio school sends a contract saying "you are invited to attend our varsity event with your varsity team."  That would imply that whomever is on your varsity squad may participate in the event.

If for some reason they send a contract stating "you are invited to attend our varsity event with your high school team (or high school wrestlers)" then they are only asking for your of age high school wrestlers.

That would me my interpretation.  But as my lovely bride always states your opinion or interpretation doesn't always matter.  

refdad, you seem to have a serious complex, one clearly of paranoia. I encourage you to read posts very slowly and repeatedly. Perhaps if you slowly digested what is being written you would realize no one is attacking you. This would alleviate a significant amount of your apparent mental anguish. I never never never attacked you.  People like you puzzle me. You pose a situation for discussion on a public forum, misinterpret other's responses, and then unjustly counter attack. Rather bizarre! Not that I personally mind, I think it is kind of funny. I have actually been quite amused by your posts. But for some reason, I just believe at the other end of the computer, you are likely kicking you dog because someone questioned or disagreed with you. I am sorry if I stressed you. Lighten up dad, role with the punches and remember this blog is one of ENTERTAINMENT and disseminating information.

I would encourage you to read to correspondence I got from Dr. Moore, OHSAA commissioner. Notice, she stated whether a  KMS can wrestle in Ohio was left to the sponsoring Ohio coach. KMS do not have a RIGHT to wrestle in Ohio. Knowing that information may help you, your son and coach should they wrestle again in Ohio. Hopefully, you have learned something. I certainly have learned a great deal. As I stated before, even the Ohio coaches are not aware of the rules. So thank you for bringing the issue to everyone's attention. I know more today than I did yesterday, that makes me happy!

That's it, I'm hiring a lawyer to get to the bottom of this.  Wait, I am a lawyer.  What kind of interpretation do you want?  I'll make it happen. 

IPEA, maybe insulting someones intelligence with snide, sarcastic remakes like you make, isn't really a PERSONAL attack , but I, at this time or any other, have never made a derogatory remark about you nor anyone else on here. Also never did I dispute what you were saying came from your correspondence with DR. Whomever from the OHSAA. I only stated what our coach had received from the OHSAA in the form of an email, which he was kind enough to present for everyone to read. Perhaps the email was not enough to sufficiently answer all question that were unanswered. Not really sure. I only stated the gist of what it contained. I don't care to dispute the matter with you or anyone else any further. Maybe we can return to the original intent of this topic.. High school wrestlers popping back up in middle school.. A few of the kids I know of are:

Wade Holtsclaw

Kevin Cooper

Lane Jones

Caleb Canter

Coach Brown, I have not seen the two kids wrestling for you yet. (Samuel and Solomon) What weights are they wresting in middle school?

OK Grapplehed, please answer this question. This may sound like a technicality but it's not, it is actually a very practical situation.

CAUTION! The following may strain the minds of some, if your IQ is less than 100, please exit now!

Fact

1. OHSAA bylaws do not allow KMS to wrestle.  Nothing about out of state wrestlers is ever mentioned in Ohio bylaws. This is a very important concept.

2. OHSAA bylaws do not prohibit a KMS from wrestling. Like I stated above, only Ohio athletes are mentioned in the bylaws.

Therefore, there are no provisions allowing or prohibiting them.

STOP! Digest this for awhile...

OK. If you take your 8th grader to Ohio and tell the coach your 8th grader is allowed to wrestle in Ohio, the coach will ask you to show him the bylaw stating they are allowed. Unfortunately, you can't. Because no such bylaw exists.

OK. Conversely, there is no OHSAA bylaw which prohibits the 8th grader from wrestling.

CAUTION! If you don't understand these 2 facts, your IQ is below 120 and you should now exit and go eat some fish.

So Grapplehed, Dr. Moore states it is left up to the sponsoring coach as to whether the 8th grader can wrestle. If the Ohio coach calls Dr. Moore, she will say, "coach' you are not breaking any rules by allowing the KMS to wrestle however there is nothing which states you have to allow them to wrestle."

Therefore, if the coach says no, then you have no recourse with OHSAA. If the coach says yes, then the KMS can wrestle.

OHSAA is not saying yes and they are not saying no. I am not being difficult, I am simply trying to make sure us Kentucky hillbillies realize our KMS are not guaranteed the right to wrestle in Ohio. So be nice to the Ohio coach and do extensive education with them prior to the match.

Like I stated last night, the Mt Healthy coach was absolutely 100% certain KMS are not permitted to wrestle in Ohio. Although certain, he was nevertheless wrong. He even told me coaches can be fined if they allow KMS to wrestle and he personally knew of this happening to a coach?? Does anyone believe this coach would have allowed an 8th grader to wrestle varsity last night at his school?

Now that I have digested the above information it is no wonder that one would simply go to OH and rely on the don't ask, don't tell scenario.

So Grapplehed, Dr. Moore states it is left up to the sponsoring coach as to whether the 8th grader can wrestle. If the Ohio coach calls Dr. Moore, she will say, "coach' you are not breaking any rules by allowing the KMS to wrestle however there is nothing which states you have to allow them to wrestle."

There's where I think you are exaggerating your point.  IF the Ohio coach was courteous enough to call the OHSAA, they'd simply say "we have a middle school kid who wrestles varsity in Ky for a team coming to our invite...their coach says he is eligible in Ky...can I let him wrestler our kids".  The OHSAA would reply "yes".  And that would be it.

IPEA you would have made an awesome lawyer.  Just buy your bottle of boone's, and enjoy some of mano y mano's finely aged cheese and don't be shy on double or nothing time.

Sorry. I had to go eat some fish. What else did he say?

Sorry. I had to go eat some fish. What else did he say?

I said, next Monday is good Friday. And the following Tuesday of last week there will be a meeting for the mothers, fathers only. Admission is free so pay at the door.

There's where I think you are exaggerating your point.  IF the Ohio coach was courteous enough to call the OHSAA, they'd simply say "we have a middle school kid who wrestles varsity in Ky for a team coming to our invite...their coach says he is eligible in Ky...can I let him wrestler our kids".  The OHSAA would reply "yes".  And that would be it.

IPEA you would have made an awesome lawyer.  Just buy your bottle of boone's, and enjoy some of mano y mano's finely aged cheese and don't be shy on double or nothing time.

Oh I'm sorry pioneer_pride, a courteous Ohio coach!  I thought I read where Cooper middle schoolers were NOT allowed to wrestle an official match in Ohio. The matches were exhibition. There team points were NOT allowed. I didn't realize in my example we were dealing with a COURTEOUS COACH. Silly me! Please disregard what a typed earlier. Geez!

Oh I'm sorry pioneer_pride, a courteous Ohio coach!  I thought I read where Cooper middle schoolers were NOT allowed to wrestle an official match in Ohio. The matches were exhibition. There team points were NOT allowed. I didn't realize in my example we were dealing with a COURTEOUS COACH. Silly me! Please disregard what a typed earlier. Geez!

lol.  ok, i'll pretend to be you for a minute.  Please read below.

Ok I-pinned-em-all, please re-read my post a couple of times and try to keep up.  I said IF the coach were courteous enough to call the OHSAA.  Keyword IF.  I put emphasis on the word IF to imply that I doubted they would even do that.  But since in your earlier post you mentioned that the coach might call the OHSAA....i played along.  Do you understand now? 

pioneer_pride, during the brief moment you pretended to me, were you nearly crushed by the pressure of knowing you had all of the world's problems solved and so little time to correct matters?  :evil: 

Here might the technicality. Although, Ms. Moore (did not see the PHD on the website), is assistant com. for elgibility and may certainly know the answer.  However, it is my understanding that the letter in question came from Ms. Roxanne Price, assist. com.  who had received the question in question from Zaborniak who oversees wrestling.  It is also my understanding that they agreed to agree and that KMS were indeed elgible to wrestle.

I would suggest that any coach of any middle schooler wrestling across the river get a copy of this letter in case there are any questions the day of the tournament.  Who has time to read and understand bylaws the morning of a tournament.

I would also suggest the tournament directors be notified ahead of time. 

IPEA, maybe insulting someones intelligence with snide, sarcastic remakes like you make, isn't really a PERSONAL attack , but I, at this time or any other, have never made a derogatory remark about you nor anyone else on here. Also never did I dispute what you were saying came from your correspondence with DR. Whomever from the OHSAA. I only stated what our coach had received from the OHSAA in the form of an email, which he was kind enough to present for everyone to read. Perhaps the email was not enough to sufficiently answer all question that were unanswered. Not really sure. I only stated the gist of what it contained. I don't care to dispute the matter with you or anyone else any further. Maybe we can return to the original intent of this topic.. High school wrestlers popping back up in middle school.. A few of the kids I know of are:

Wade Holtsclaw

Kevin Cooper

Lane Jones

Caleb Canter

Coach Brown, I have not seen the two kids wrestling for you yet. (Samuel and Solomon) What weights are they wresting in middle school?

Solomon is ggoing 185 and samuel 235

Here might the technicality. Although, Ms. Moore (did not see the PHD on the website), is assistant com. for elgibility and may certainly know the answer.  However, it is my understanding that the letter in question came from Ms. Roxanne Price, assist. com.  who had received the question in question from Zaborniak who oversees wrestling.  It is also my understanding that they agreed to agree and that KMS were indeed elgible to wrestle.

I would suggest that any coach of any middle schooler wrestling across the river get a copy of this letter in case there are any questions the day of the tournament.  Who has time to read and understand bylaws the morning of a tournament.

I would also suggest the tournament directors be notified ahead of time. 

Great advice.

IPEA,

Funny you mention the scenerio.  It just so happened to be the situation.  I am not sure who blew the whistle but I have a hunch it was the host team in which we were supposed to wrestle in a dual.  We had seen them in a scrimmage prior to that.  I argued my case but lost.  

I immediately corresponded with the person who oversees wrestling in the OHSAA which I think grapplehed mentioned is Zaborniak.  He/she then contacted Roxanne price.  I immediately received the email posted earlier.  

Ironically, I sent the corresponding email to the host coach for future reference.  We saw them a few weeks ago, and no questions were asked.

After a phone call, bottom line interpretation was that if you are Eligible by KHSAA, you are eligible in any other state.  I believe there have been MS from Minn wrestle in the Ironman.  

Getting back to your situation, in reality, just like a skin condition, you have the paperwork but if the head official says "shababena"  you are out of luck.  I could see that happening.  But if they don't have their paperwork to stand on, I would fight it.  My immediate reaction would be to pull the whole team to screw the brackets up, but that would not be fair to the other kids.  

Well I agree with REFDAD -- My Son is an 8th grader but he is having to file in the #189 spot for his team--none of the kids on his middle school team can beat him so im proud that the coach ask him to move up--as of last night he is 16 an 10 Varsity.. So we will see what happens come this weekend at Larue co.. Plus I know both the Vanover boys and they are great kids, they work there butts off to be as good as they are.