70 - Not as strong as in the past - AJ all the hard work paid off. Scaggs put up a good fight in the finals but AJ was in control in every match in the tourney.

75 - I didn't think he had it in him but Wiley brought his A game this weekend. Dominated every match start to finish. No one was close to him. Outstanding job.

82 - Ervin - what more can you say - one of the best in Kentucky

89 - Lampe - pound for pound one of the strongest wrestlers in Middle School. Looked great all day.

96 - Fahy - business as usual - looked very good all day

103 - Weddding - best wrestler of the day in the weight class with 3 of best wrestlers. Too bad there could only be 1 champ.

110 - Perez put up a good fight but Holtsclaw was too much.

117 - Cox from Fern Creek - where did this kid come from - a great weekend for him

124 - Carr - good match with Lopez from Elkhorn

131 - Cooper - dominate all weekend

140 - Bryant - looked great - took it to everyone all weekend

150 - Brummett - dominate - what more can you say but dominate

165 - Preston - another one - dominate

185 and Heavy - Vanover brothers - first time I saw them this year and it was a pleasure. True gentlemen on the mat and off from what I saw. Respectful to opponents and coaches.

Coaches - There are some of us that need to dial it down a notch and remember the example we are trying to set for the kids.

Parents - Same as above.

Refs - Some good some bad. Some very bad. Fortunately none of my guys lost a match on a bad call but I saw others that did. Throughout a long day a ref is not going to right all the time but for the most part they called it right. There was 1 who did not do a very good job and I think most coaches know who it was.

5 match rule - don't have an exact answer but something needs to be done to avoid a coin toss to decide 3rd or 4th or th or 6th. Everybody agrees but no one can agree on an answer.  A 2 day tournament would solve the problem but logistics probably prevent it. Possibly a set criteria to go by (common opponents, number of pins, total points, etc.). Don't have the answer but I'm sure there are more ideas.

Overall the tournament itself seemed to run smooth with no long waits on matches. It was a long day and the longest wait was if you kept winning. The bout board was kept up to date and the matches just kept being churned out.

Any other thoughts?

The wrestling spoke for itself...!

I would say that we need to step it up a bit in the following areas:

a) 5 match rule... candidly the only word I can come up with here is embarrassing... How in the world can you create a state tournament where the major majority of the 3rd/4th place and 5th/6th matches were non existent due to this rule... is somebody actually kidding me that we are flipping coins for this... as they would say on SNL... REALLY!!!  Got to change this... as you suggested a two day tournament or a one event rule change should be in order very quickly... proper rankings are not being established by current system.  I would also submit that a two day tournament (logistical challenge or not) would create better wrestling and result... this is wrestling, not an ironman event!

Referees- many good, some also embarrassing... would suggest only the best be allowed to take part in this event that is critical to many developing wrestlers... when a referee can't hit the mat quick enough for back point due to physical limitations (no disrespect...) they might ought to look to be paid at other venues... this is not the venue for this activity.  When the referee looks at the wrestlers and make the serious question, "who won this bout"... just as he needs to raise a hand... we have a problem.  We know who they are... let's rid of them!

c) table workers- although I describe this as table workers... maybe should be placed under the referee section.  Way too many scoring errors with bouts... wrestlers winning 8-0, but disputes overruling acutal results take wreslters into a 4-4 tie and overtime situations... terrible!  Standards for these folks need to instituted for  major tournaments such as this.  As well, I would suggest that referees only allow for coach descrepencies after the whistle has blown to stop wrestling activity and after each period only for that period... once posted... done... no way to go back any further in the match to create dispute... saw wrestlers flat lose because of poor scoring and alternate scorer copying... no cell phones by these folks!!!

d) tournament logistics- would love to hear final results announced after each bout is completed... isn't that why brackets are sold incomplete... so we can know who is wrestling and complete them???  Other than that... very well run and "on time"!  Nice job!

e) tournament site and entry- very pricey!  Would submit there could be other premier locations to host site... maybe a consideration to create a bid process for other schools to host tournament.  Oh, how were they able to also host a dance at same location, same evening???  Weird...

f) did anyone say "middle school"???  What exactly is the definition of middle school??? why are there kids that aren't in middle school wrestling at this event?  Who defines "middle school"?

I believe the coaches can contact the tournament director or the director should contact the assignments official to identify concerns regarding the official's.

Yes, a state tournament at any level should have high quality officiating :-D;

I am gonna catch a lot of flack for this and I know it has been discussed, but to me if you make the choice to wrestle in high school you should not be eligible to wrestle in middle school again or the state tourney.  Same goes for elementary school kids wrestling up.  What really is gained other than some hardware for doing this?  Maybe someone can convince me I am wrong and I will buy it.

5 match limit rule has got to go or they have to make this a two day event.

I am gonna catch a lot of flack for this and I know it has been discussed, but to me if you make the choice to wrestle in high school you should not be eligible to wrestle in middle school again or the state tourney.  Same goes for elementary school kids wrestling up.  What really is gained other than some hardware for doing this?  Maybe someone can convince me I am wrong and I will buy it.

5 match limit rule has got to go or they have to make this a two day event.

A couple thoughts on the kids that wrestle with the high school and the elementary moving up.

It is very difficult to draw a line in the sand and say if you compete with the high school team then you are ineligible for middle school.  First, with no mandatory reporting of results it is impossible to know who is really competing with the high school team.  Second, often the kid is only filling an open spot (103 most of the time) at the high school level; they haven't moved up and beat out someone in a wrestle off.  They may be halfway competitive, but only because they are wrestling against other middle school kids.  When they hit the older, more experienced kids they get beat up.  I know that's not always the case, but it is a case where it doesn't seem fair to punish the kid for helping out his future varsity coach.

What does it hurt to have the elementary kids wrestling up?  If the middle school kids are good enough they will beat the young kids.  If not, too bad.  We have a lot of young kids that are developing quickly and need that competition to continue to grow into elite wrestlers.  If we force them to only beat up on inexperienced elementary kids week in and week out they won't get any better.  Plus, the youth programs have not progressed to the point of holding enough events around the state.  Yes, those in northern ky can cross the river to Cincinnati every Sunday, but for the most part there are not many opportunities for young kids across the state.

I don't have a problem with elementary kids wrestling as much as they want, wherever they want.  But I see and agree with what the other guy was saying about middle schoolers wrestling up.  I also see what Ranger is saying about fill-ins.  If you're just stepping in for an injured wrestler or whatever, as long as it's temporary, that's ok.  But I don't think that a kid who is a legitimate competitor at the high school level should wrestle middle school.  What I want to know is how many middle school matches did people like Holtsclaw or the Vanovers (nothing against any of them) and the like wrestle other than region and state?  Are they just showing up at the middle school postseason to collect medals?  My point is that if a kid wrestles a certain number of high school matches, he can't be considered a "fill-in."  And I kind of feel like if you have chosen to wrestle high school, and you're the varsity guy, then you shouldn't go back to middle school. 

If someone want to wrestle for 3rd thur 6th and have 5 matches on the day, stay till after midnight and wrestle then. Will make for a late night but cost less than 2 days and you get a true 3rd thru 6th or change the rule. Having criteria is OK for seeding but anything could happen in a match, criteria wouldn't give you true results.

Just a idea.

I usually do not participate in the conversations on this site (I am not trying to say that they are bad...we use the KSWA site for communication purposes), but I did want to take a minute to comment on some of the above.  Any feedback directed towards Middle School Wrestling should be left under the "FEEDBACK" tab on the www.kyswa.org website.  We typically do not check this site and will miss your suggestions for improvement.

1. Referee's are assigned by the assigning secretary.  We do plan on looking (at the request of our coaches) to invite 2 referee's from each region in the future.  The association will have to provide travel/lodging and might need to raise entry fee's to provide this opportunity.  I want to thank all the referee's for there hard work this past weekend.

2. Table Workers:  We asked each coach/team/region to provide enough qualified table workers to cover each mat for the entire day.  We used what we had.  If the kids did not offer to work, we would not have been able to cover all the tables.  At one point in the day, we even made an announcement to get more volunteer's to relieve the workers and no one came down.  I appreciate all those that did work the tables and I want to thank them for their hard work.  I believe that they all did a great job.

3. 5-Match Rule: It is in our by-laws----KSWA events will follow the rules outlined by the National Federation of State High School Associations (NFHS) rules for wrestling.  Any exceptions or modifications to these rules will be listed in the KSWA bylaws:

4. Honestly, the best place to let your thoughts be heard is at the Association meetings in May and September.  We have had very little participation from teams considering the how much growth we have had in the past few years.  

Most of this is brought up on a yearly basis, and if it has not changed, it is because the Majority of coaches (state-wide) vote not to change them, or there is no a solution that a majority can agree on.  If you have opinions or suggestions, please make sure you let your coach know these so they can present them to the Association for discussion.

We are always looking for ways to improve our Association and the tournaments.  Thank you for your comments.

I think overall it was a great tournament and congratulation to all the participants.

-KSWA VP

I don't have a problem with elementary kids wrestling as much as they want, wherever they want.  But I see and agree with what the other guy was saying about middle schoolers wrestling up.  I also see what Ranger is saying about fill-ins.  If you're just stepping in for an injured wrestler or whatever, as long as it's temporary, that's ok.  But I don't think that a kid who is a legitimate competitor at the high school level should wrestle middle school.  What I want to know is how many middle school matches did people like Holtsclaw or the Vanovers (nothing against any of them) and the like wrestle other than region and state?  Are they just showing up at the middle school postseason to collect medals?  My point is that if a kid wrestles a certain number of high school matches, he can't be considered a "fill-in."  And I kind of feel like if you have chosen to wrestle high school, and you're the varsity guy, then you shouldn't go back to middle school. 

Whats the difference between Elementary and Middle Schoolers wrestling up?  Isn't it the same?

I don't have a problem with elementary kids wrestling as much as they want, wherever they want.  But I see and agree with what the other guy was saying about middle schoolers wrestling up.  I also see what Ranger is saying about fill-ins.  If you're just stepping in for an injured wrestler or whatever, as long as it's temporary, that's ok.  But I don't think that a kid who is a legitimate competitor at the high school level should wrestle middle school.  What I want to know is how many middle school matches did people like Holtsclaw or the Vanovers (nothing against any of them) and the like wrestle other than region and state?  Are they just showing up at the middle school postseason to collect medals?  My point is that if a kid wrestles a certain number of high school matches, he can't be considered a "fill-in."  And I kind of feel like if you have chosen to wrestle high school, and you're the varsity guy, then you shouldn't go back to middle school. 

I think the problem is where exactly do you draw the line?  A certain number of varsity matches?  But what about the 103s that are called up on a regular basis just to avoid the forfeit or to fill an empty weight class?  The kid could go 10-25 (with 8 forfeits).  Should he miss out on his middle school opportunity just for helping the varsity win a few dual meets?

Like has been said already, if the coaches really had a problem with it they would address it.

A kid who is a legitimate competitor at the high school level and in middle school should be able to wrestle a MS State because he is in middle school. To say a 8th grader that placed 8th in HS State last year couldn't wrestle MS again is just wrong, otherwise all you are saying is the kid is to good to wrestle in MS. To punish a kid because he is that good is wrong, yes other kids might get beat up and might not place at MS state. To say I placed 8th place at HS state as a 7th grader sounds goods, to say I placed 1st at MS state sounds better. The earlier a kid starts wrestling the better he/she should get, that is if he is working hard and finding competition the is equal and better than his/her level.

I am gonna catch a lot of flack for this and I know it has been discussed, but to me if you make the choice to wrestle in high school you should not be eligible to wrestle in middle school again or the state tourney.  Same goes for elementary school kids wrestling up.  What really is gained other than some hardware for doing this?  Maybe someone can convince me I am wrong and I will buy it.

5 match limit rule has got to go or they have to make this a two day event.

I can speak from experience on this. My son wrestled his 7th grade year a 1/2 year of varsity till the regular wrestler was able to get the 2lb allowance. He was only able to finish 4th that year in ms state. This left him hungry and determined to win a title his 8th grade year.  As a result he went to camps, lifted weights, ran and did everything in his power to make himself a ms state champ. This allowed him to become good enough to win a spot on the varsity.  This also allowed him to win ms state last year.

So tell me what should I have done?  Not let him wrestled because as a byproduct oh his hard work he was able to compete at varsity also. 

i have said this before, just because someone is good enough to wrestle at a higher level, why should me not let them wrestle with their true age group? look at harrison courtney for example, just because he dominates everyone he wrestles, and could compete at a college level, should we ban him from the state tournament, and make him wrestle at college regionals? no, he wrestles with his own age group until he is old enough to go higher, even though during the summer, im sure he competes with college wrestlers.

I'm just wondiering how you can call it a State Championship if the best kids don't compete?  I loved watching the 103 & 110 finals, if those kids couldn't compete how is that fair to anyone.  I personally am looking to raise the bar not lower it. I look forward to the day when it's a privilege just to make it to this unbelievably tough 32 man bracket tournament.

i agree, i know i wouldnt take pride winning a tournament, that the best kids werent at.

If a kid is in the 8th grade(and age is ok), he should be able to wrestle in any Middle School tournament he wants. 

That talk about not letting someone wrestle because the wrestle varsity is stupid.  That just means that kid is really good.  Good for him.

This HS vs MS issue was debated for years and finally resolved to some satisfaction!

I still wish a MS kid wrestling HS were required to compete in a minimal number or matches at the MS level to qualify for MS post season tourney. This would eliminate someone showing up at regionals and state that noone has heard of because he has been training and competing all year at the HS. It seems like if they at least wrestled a few MS matches then everyone would have a chance to know the competition.

Everyone brings up excellent points, and there aren't really any easy answers to most of the questions.  However, the difference between elementary going up vs. middle school going up is that there is no organization at the elementary level.  Plus, good luck finding very many middle schoolers to fill the 70, 75, and 82 weight classes.  Just as much as anyone I want to see the very best compete for the prize.  Someone mentioned the 103 finals this year.  Neither one of them wrestles up to my knowledge, so that doesn't matter and I don't have a problem with that.  To address another point mentioned, I think age definitely should be a factor.  Now of course I don't have birth certificate records, but having talked to various coaches and others, the ages of some wrestlers have come into question in recent years.  There are those out there who think that there are essentially some freshmen wrestling against 6th, 7th, and 8th graders, which I think is unfair.  Again, I have no proof, but questions have been asked.  Ultimately,this issue of wrestling up is going to have to be addressed.  Middle school wrestling in KY is getting bigger and eventually the schedule will be such that the postseasons of MS and HS will come into conflict.  In fact, it may be that way next year with the switch to districts (someone correct me if I'm wrong).  Where do those kids wrestle then?  Which brings me back to one of my previous questions: how much do the studs who wrerstle up actually participate in MS wrestling other than the postseason?  I'm all for hardware, but if better competition is to be had at the high school level, then why not wrestle at a high school tournament on the weekends of the MS tourneys?  Like I said before, it's a tricky issue, but those guys are going to have to pick one or the other eventually because they won't be able to just show up at the MS region and state to collect their medals.

Slight correction:  The KSYWA was officially organized 2 years ago with bylaws and a board of directors.  Regionals are being held at 6 different locations with the State Tournament being held on March 7th at Fern Creek High School.  By the way, we're expecting close to 1000 kids.  Easily the largest wrestling tournament ever in KY.  If you need information on the Youth organization or have kids that may want to attend Regionals and State send me an email.  I will be glad to help.

Correction to what?  I'm sure we're all aware that the elementary level has a state tournament and now is having a regional tournament.  But during the actual wrestling season, October 15 to February 15, how many elementary events occur.  Why is that?  No organization, no time, no willing personnel.  Heck, the guys at the middle school busts their butts, and do a heck of a job, to get what little organization exists currently.

I usually do not participate in the conversations on this site (I am not trying to say that they are bad...we use the KSWA site for communication purposes), but I did want to take a minute to comment on some of the above.  Any feedback directed towards Middle School Wrestling should be left under the "FEEDBACK" tab on the www.kyswa.org website.  We typically do not check this site and will miss your suggestions for improvement.

1. Referee's are assigned by the assigning secretary.  We do plan on looking (at the request of our coaches) to invite 2 referee's from each region in the future.  The association will have to provide travel/lodging and might need to raise entry fee's to provide this opportunity.  I want to thank all the referee's for there hard work this past weekend.

2. Table Workers:  We asked each coach/team/region to provide enough qualified table workers to cover each mat for the entire day.  We used what we had.  If the kids did not offer to work, we would not have been able to cover all the tables.  At one point in the day, we even made an announcement to get more volunteer's to relieve the workers and no one came down.  I appreciate all those that did work the tables and I want to thank them for their hard work.  I believe that they all did a great job.

3. 5-Match Rule: It is in our by-laws----KSWA events will follow the rules outlined by the National Federation of State High School Associations (NFHS) rules for wrestling.  Any exceptions or modifications to these rules will be listed in the KSWA bylaws:

4. Honestly, the best place to let your thoughts be heard is at the Association meetings in May and September.  We have had very little participation from teams considering the how much growth we have had in the past few years.  

Most of this is brought up on a yearly basis, and if it has not changed, it is because the Majority of coaches (state-wide) vote not to change them, or there is no a solution that a majority can agree on.  If you have opinions or suggestions, please make sure you let your coach know these so they can present them to the Association for discussion.

We are always looking for ways to improve our Association and the tournaments.  Thank you for your comments.

I think overall it was a great tournament and congratulation to all the participants.

-KSWA VP

Is it possible or practical to require the Middle School Regions and State tournament officials having to meet the same requirements as the high school :?

That would limit first year officials or those that don't want to get certified for end of year tournaments :roll:

There are tournaments every weekend for youth beginning in December and continuing throughout January and February.  Great tournaments with unbelievable competition.  Travel north until you hit the Ohio river then crossover.  The organization is called Cincinnati Youth Wrestling.  Several teams from northern Kentucky and Louisville compete every weekend.

In Central Ky. they formed a league and wrestle just about every weekend.  Those coaches are doing a great job of promoting Youth wrestling.  Ryle held a Youth tournament (3rd yr) and over 400 kids wrestled on Jan. 10th. 

I don't pretend to know every tournament being held in Ky. but I am sure the Youth coaches are doing all they can to promote wrestling as evidenced by the huge growth.  I don't know how many Middle and High School tournaments are held throughout the season but remember both of these organizations have been around for considerably longer than Youth.

To those of you who think middle schoolers who wrestle varsity shouldnt wrestle at middle school state...

grow up and quit whinning. I think you're just afraid of guys like Cooper or Holtzclaw whooping the crap out of your kid  :evil:

This HS vs MS issue was debated for years and finally resolved to some satisfaction!

I still wish a MS kid wrestling HS were required to compete in a minimal number or matches at the MS level to qualify for MS post season tourney. This would eliminate someone showing up at regional and state that noone has heard of because he has been training and competing all year at the HS. It seems like if they at least wrestled a few MS matches then everyone would have a chance to know the competition.

Eville Dad,  You have been around for a while and heard all the discussions.

How's this, the high school programs develop a program and a team not requiring middle school kids in the line up :-o  I never imagine middle school kids wrestling varsity until I came to KY and saw such small numbers at the high school level.

How many middle school kids wrestle varsity in Oh, Mi, IN, PA etc... at the varsity level :?  Not many, especially after 119.

Until all out programs can fill out a lineup - what's the problem. The high school kids and coaches don't mind beating up middle schoolers that move up. So why do the middle schoolers have a issue getting beat by some one in the same weigh class, the same age/grade range.  I think this is more of a parent issue than the kids. :-D

Seniors beat up Freshman and 8th grader will continue to beat up 6th graders, it just fact.

How many runner ups or 3rd place kids quit wrestling because they got beat by 2 and 3 x Champions:

Logan Wedding

Kenneth Brummett

Kevin Cooper

Brock Ervin

Matt Fahy

Samuel Vanover

Oops -  Heartlessly "ONLY" won one middle school championship, so why does everyone want to take the opportunity away from all his hard work and OTHERS that desire to want to get better.  Plus he may wrestle varsity because he is the best his team has to offer and he is only a middle schooler :-o

Shame on the high school programs for not have better high school wrestlers :-D

Give it a break  :wink:

I am gonna catch a lot of flack for this and I know it has been discussed, but to me if you make the choice to wrestle in high school you should not be eligible to wrestle in middle school again or the state tourney.  Same goes for elementary school kids wrestling up.  What really is gained other than some hardware for doing this?  Maybe someone can convince me I am wrong and I will buy it.

These are CHILDREN.  They may be talented children that need or want to wrestle at other levels to further develop their skills and help out a school that needs them in a line up.  It is a win/win situation for the wrestler and the team.  But since they are CHILDREN and will more than likely not win state at the high school level when they are in middle school they should get their chance to compete for the title in the Middle School Tournament.  Why should they be denied that opportunity? 

Sounds like I opened an old can of worms, dont be hatin, I didnt suggest that middle school kids who wrestle HS not be allowed to wrestle MS, just would like to see them make an effort to wrestle some middle school prior to the state tournament. Whats wrong with asking for a few MS bouts from each kid?

I agree there arent many, if any other states allowing MS kids to compete in wrestling or other contact sports and no I dont consider basketball or tennis contact sports and before people come up with example after example just realize its rare and usually the exception and not the rule. Its not really helping the sport as a whole to improve or grow, I agree we need more high school aged kids wrestling.

Everyone brings up excellent points, and there aren't really any easy answers to most of the questions.  However, the difference between elementary going up vs. middle school going up is that there is no organization at the elementary level.  

There are some HS that don't have MS teams/MS coach, the MS kids work out with the HS kids. Should these kids be Bared from MS state?

Plus, good luck finding very many middle schoolers to fill the 70, 75, and 82 weight classes.  Just as much as anyone I want to see the very best compete for the prize.  Someone mentioned the 103 finals this year.  Neither one of them wrestles up to my knowledge, so that doesn't matter and I don't have a problem with that.

M.S. State Tournament

2/7/09

Place Winners

Weight: 103                                                        Ranger Rankings 103

1st: Logan Wedding, Union County 4- 0        VS         6   Un Co   Neal Reburn   12

2nd: Caleb Canter, Larue County 3- 1           VS        2   Lar Co   Nick Paden   9  

3rd: Wade Willen, UHA 4- 1                         VS        8   UH   Wade Willen   8

4th: Shea Sparrow, Anderson County 4- 1

5th: Chad Gahafer, Union County 3- 2

6th: Isaac Hamlin, Twenhofel 3- 2

Weight: 110                                                    Ranger Rankings 112

1st: Wade Holtsclaw, Bluegrass Middle School   VS       8   JH   Wade Holtsclaw   8  

2nd: Raymundo Perez, Larue County           VS      7   Lar Co   Justin Thompson   12

3rd: Gabe Ervin, Union County

4th: Cameron Montgomery, Christian County   VS      5   Chr Co   Dee Leavell   12

5th: Steven Ard, Campbell County

6th: Gabe McIlrath, Montgomery County

Why are some kids good? Look who they practice with.

             Ranger Rankings

103    6 MS kids ranked, 13 kids MS or HS? ranked 8   UH   Wade Willen   8

112  3 MS kids ranked,   6 kids MS or HS?  ranked 8   JH   Wade Holtsclaw   8  

119  3 MS kids ranked,  6 kids MS or HS? ranked 4 SK   Kevin Cooper   8

125  1 MS kids ranked, 7 kids MS or HS?

130  0 MS kids ranked, 8 kids MS or HS?

135  1 MS kids ranked, 4  kids MS or HS?  ranked 17   Coop   Lane Jones   8

140  0 MS kids ranked, 11 kids MS or HS?

145  0 MS kids ranked, 9 kids MS or HS?

152  1 MS kids ranked, 8 kids MS or HS?  ranked 31   Mc Cen   Nick Staten   8

160  1 MS kids ranked, 12 kids MS or HS?  ranked 29   Un Co   Kenneth Brummett   8

171  2 MS kids ranked,7 kids MS or HS?  ranked 24   Whit Co   Soloman Vanover 8, 33   JC   Sam Preston   8

189  1 MS kids ranked, 11 kids MS or HS? ranked 27   Whit Co   Samuel Vanover 8

Bet these ranked MS plan to be a HS State Champ

 To address another point mentioned, I think age definitely should be a factor.  Now of course I don't have birth certificate records, but having talked to various coaches and others, the ages of some wrestlers have come into question in recent years.

All schools require a birth certificate, I believe. Coaches know how old their kids are. If there is a age limit and a kid wrestles, the Coaches should be put out to dry! If various coaches and others are talking about it, they should talk to that kids Coach so there is no misunderstanding or shut the **** up.

 There are those out there who think that there are essentially some freshmen wrestling against 6th, 7th, and 8th graders, which I think is unfair.

Think or Know, I think I shouldn't have to pay taxes, I Know I will. I know freshmen wrestling in MS meets is wrong, if it's being done

 

Again, I have no proof, but questions have been asked.

Then you should have asked at the meet not here on the web

 

Ultimately,this issue of wrestling up is going to have to be addressed.  Middle school wrestling in KY is getting bigger and eventually the schedule will be such that the postseasons of MS and HS will come into conflict.  In fact, it may be that way next year with the switch to districts (someone correct me if I'm wrong).  Where do those kids wrestle then?  

If the post seasons of MS and HS will come into conflict, there is no conflict the kid either wrestles MS or HS. Can't be at both

Which brings me back to one of my previous questions: how much do the studs who wrerstle up actually participate in MS wrestling other than the postseason?  I'm all for hardware, but if better competition is to be had at the high school level, then why not wrestle at a high school tournament on the weekends of the MS tourneys?

Because they are in MS "studs" and have a choice.

 Like I said before, it's a tricky issue, but those guys are going to have to pick one or the other eventually because they won't be able to just show up at the MS region and state to collect their medals.

Why not if they are in MS, and just that good to just show up and go home with the GOLD? The few kids that we are talking about put a lot of time and sweat into wrestling to be as good as they are. One day they might earn a gold Olympics?

2008 Summer Olympics Medals

Just to add to the HS v. MS debate: My son has wrestled varsity all year and some middle school at 103. He will most likely qualify 3rd or 4th for high school state but the best he could do at middle school region was 5th(region 1). By some accounts he should not have been allowed to participate in MS regional, why do some want to punish those who are good enough to do both? If they are middle school and they wrestle varsity and they beat your MS who doesn

Again, all valid points.  But I think that if you want to participate in the Middle School postseason, then you should have to reasonably participate in the middle school season.  That seems totally fair to me.  Also to reiterate, what exactly is going to happen when the postseasons of both overlap?

To address a different, but already mentioned topic, the 5 match rule is absolutely ridiculous.  How many 3rd and 5th place matches actually took place?  Can someone shed some light on where exactly that rule came from and upon what it is based?

Excellent points and great example :-D

The top three or four kids in MS have great partners to make them as good as they are.

Caleb Canter is even going up to 121 just to get into the lineup for LaRue.    Caleb is good but can you imagine wrestling one weekend at 103 and the next at 121.  He will even probably score some points for his team and possible help them win a Championship.

He will qualify for state and may not score, but look at the experience and confidence

he'll gain for next season.  He is probably just one of many in this circumstance.

In a few years Wedding and Ervin will wrestle for Armenia in the Olympics because they can't beat their partner :evil:

Again, all valid points.  But I think that if you want to participate in the Middle School postseason, then you should have to reasonably participate in the middle school season.  That seems totally fair to me.  Also to reiterate, what exactly is going to happen when the postseasons of both overlap?

So it would be better that a really good MS kid only wrestles MS matches during middle school season,then goes undefeated and wins MS state. (although anything can happen on the mat) If the kid Kills eveyone he wrestles, there might be some that quit.

or

The kid wrestles HS has a 50-50 record, drops to MS for state and wins. (although anything can happen on the mat) At least here the kid has to improve at HS and other MS kids get more wins/medals.

I choose #2

Yes, that is how it is now.  But what I'm getting at is what if he can only choose one?  At the region tournament, the decision was made for the MS level to go district--->region--->state duals--->state.

From what I was told, that means that MS state will be the same weekend as HS region.  What then?  Right or wrong, that decision will have to be made, won't it?

Yes that is a choice he will have to make, but at least he has a choice.

Yes, that is how it is now.  But what I'm getting at is what if he can only choose one?  At the region tournament, the decision was made for the MS level to go district--->region--->state duals--->state.

From what I was told, that means that MS state will be the same weekend as HS region.  What then?  Right or wrong, that decision will have to be made, won't it?

From what I've been told the only choice they will have to make is to wrestle HS State Duals or MS State Duals.  The region and state weekends stay the same as they currently are, MS state the weekend before HS regional.

Wristandahalf,I agree on all the things you said about our state champs.There is one think we may both be wrong on.I myself have said that I thought the 70lb class was down this year,but after watching AJ pin one of the best 70s in Ind. sunday at Jeff. maybe just maybe we didn't give this weight class its due.I think next year it will be loaded.

Sounds like I opened an old can of worms, dont be hatin, I didnt suggest that middle school kids who wrestle HS not be allowed to wrestle MS, just would like to see them make an effort to wrestle some middle school prior to the state tournament. Whats wrong with asking for a few MS bouts from each kid?

I understand your logistics on this eville dad but here lies the problem with this.

While coaching at Holmes (9 years) I was the only coach for most of those years. I usually only had about 6-9 kids on the wrestling team, this included middle school wrestlers if I had any.

I cannot be in two places at once.  The only way for my middle school kids to get matches were to wrestle varsity.  I had no one to take my middle school kids to a middle school event.  (No parental support)  Two years I sent a kid to the middle school regionals when they never competed in a middle school event.  On both occasions I did not follow school policy and sent someone (with either the middle school kid or like I did last year with the high school varsity) that was not employed by the school system. I took a chance by doing this.

According to your rule neither of these kids would ever be allowed to wrestle in the middle school regionals, or state.  Is this fair?  Prior to these two I did not send anyone because I had no way of getting them there. 

To address a different, but already mentioned topic, the 5 match rule is absolutely ridiculous.  How many 3rd and 5th place matches actually took place?  Can someone shed some light on where exactly that rule came from and upon what it is based?

this rule was put in place to keep kids from exhaustion i personaly think if the kid cant wrestle let them forfeit

How exactly is "exhaustion" determined?  For high school, 5 matches equates to a maximum 30 minutes of wrestling, assuming no overtime.  That's like one quarter of an average practice.  What if a kid's matches only last 20 seconds each?  You're going to tell him he can't wrestle anymore when he has only spent a minute and 40 seconds on the mat?  The rule needs to be changed.  Or, like said before, if the the kid, parents, and coach are all ok with it, let them keep wrestling.

Ya. if  a kid thinks He can wrestle and be competitive let em. how is someone who has never seen  a kid wrestle before allowed to decide how many matches they are capable of wrestling, i mean dont give them an absurd number of matches but i think you should calculate how much they are allowed to wrestle by how much time they spend in matches. it was sorta hinted at eearly but 30 total time sounds good and you might not get coin flips to decide placing at a tourny

30 minutes of wrestling time seems like a good place to start.  This should be the minimum, I think.  Maybe build in some overtime allowance and give them 40-45 minutes of wrestling per day.  The 5 match rule already allows up to 42.5 at the high school level.

Bulldog,

I understand some programs dont have the numbers of support that others have, but just as you stated, you took a chance one year and I assumed it all worked out.

If the rule were in place, teams would find a way to make it work or perhaps a few very small number of kids would not participate. If theres a will, theres a way, if a coach and parents want the kid to attend bad enough, some one will step up and make it happen for the kids. Not sure of your arrangement with your school in regards to having to take a chance, but I havent seen a situation yet that cant be managed thru USAW cards, optimist clubs or various other methods to satisfy required insurance and liability issues.

It just doesnt seem right that a kid would just show up for MS post season unless they have wrestled at least some MS. Im not suggesting the whole season but lets say 5 - 8 matches, a tournament and some duals. I think its important for the integrity of the competition. Its not about one kid being scared of another kid or getting beat by another kid its about knowing who the competition is and being able to prepare sufficiently.

If this never changes, the whole system will be fine. I dont have a kid at that age, but I had been involved thru the years and I always thought it made sense. Obviously the coaches as a group dont agree and thats fine.  just thought I would throw it out there for the forum.

I'm sure all the kids who wrestled in both middle school and high school did wrestle in a middle school tournament or dual during the season.  You have to make scratch weight at least once to get the 2 pound allowance at regionals and state.  Now number of matches they wrestled I don't know.  I wouldn't think a coach would just have them weigh in and not wrestle.

30 minutes of wrestling time seems like a good place to start.  This should be the minimum, I think.  Maybe build in some overtime allowance and give them 40-45 minutes of wrestling per day.  The 5 match rule already allows up to 42.5 at the high school level.

i had forgot about overtime time :-D

there are lost of people that i never see wrestle in my weight class, and im on the highschool level. what makes middle school any different. if you want to see someone wrestle bad enough, go watch them at a meet you don't attend. this topic is getting rather old and pointless to me. the kids are in middle school, by definition, let them wrestle middle school without any complaints.

AMEN!!!

Couldn't you then extend that logic to "they are in middle school, so they wrestle middle school?" or "They are not in high school, so they don't wrestle high school?"  I just think you have to make a choice: you pick one, and you stick with it, for better or worse.  I think it should be that way for every sport.  I coach baseball as well and the high school coach wants one of my 8th graders.  That's fine, it's better for all parties.  He gets accelerated competition and I get to develop some other talent.  The high school coach won't let him play down after making the jump, his parents won't let him go back, and I wouldn't have him back.  Not because I don't like him, but because it wouldn't be fair to the kid who took his spot and worked hard all season and was a part of the team when he wasn't.  Which leads into another part of the argument.  People talk about fair play; to me it's unfair for a kid to participate when it's convenient for him.  Johnny Studmuffin shouldn't be able to come and take a lesser kid's spot at the end of the season just because he wants a medal.  Especially not if that kid has been to every middle school practice and wrestled in a majority of the matches at that weight.

Couldn't you then extend that logic to "they are in middle school, so they wrestle middle school?" or "They are not in high school, so they don't wrestle high school?"  I just think you have to make a choice: you pick one, and you stick with it, for better or worse.  I think it should be that way for every sport.  I coach baseball as well and the high school coach wants one of my 8th graders.  That's fine, it's better for all parties.  He gets accelerated competition and I get to develop some other talent.  The high school coach won't let him play down after making the jump, his parents won't let him go back, and I wouldn't have him back.  Not because I don't like him, but because it wouldn't be fair to the kid who took his spot and worked hard all season and was a part of the team when he wasn't.  Which leads into another part of the argument.  People talk about fair play; to me it's unfair for a kid to participate when it's convenient for him.  Johnny Studmuffin shouldn't be able to come and take a lesser kid's spot at the end of the season just because he wants a medal.  Especially not if that kid has been to every middle school practice and wrestled in a majority of the matches at that weight.

alot of mioddle school kids pratice at the same time as the high school kids so they are at every practice.

also, alot of these kids would not get ANY matches if you made Johnny Studmuffin only wrestle middle school.  Now who wants to practice hard everyday and not to get to wrestle any matches.

alot of mioddle school kids pratice at the same time as the high school kids so they are at every practice.

also, alot of these kids would not get ANY matches if you made Johnny Studmuffin only wrestle middle school.  Now who wants to practice hard everyday and not to get to wrestle any matches.

Why wouldnt JS get any matches if he only wrestled MS?

Are you saying your school doesnt have a MS team?

Thats all the more reason to start a middle school team to build up your HS program over time.

Can you imagine how good a HS team would be if they had MS kids coming in as freshmen with 2-5 yrs experience and the whole HS team was made up of HS aged kids?

Why wouldnt JS get any matches if he only wrestled MS?

Are you saying your school doesnt have a MS team?

Thats all the more reason to start a middle school team to build up your HS program over time.

Can you imagine how good a HS team would be if they had MS kids coming in as freshmen with 2-5 yrs experience and the whole HS team was made up of HS aged kids?

the kids behind JS would not get any matches because he would take the place of the kid who wrestle

if he was not there.  yes our team does have a middle school team and we are trying to get it even larger.

I guess the reason I feel so passionate about this, is that that my son 's (as I posted before) main goal was to be ms state champ. He worked hard over the summer and was able to acheive this. A byproduct of this work was also a spot on the varisty. Should I then have made my son choose one or the other.

I also agree, that the ideal thing would be to be having a HS team with all hs age kids. I am not arguing this point. I would like to see ky wrestling get to this point.

I think many of you are missing the point. As bull-dog leader pointed out not every team has multiple coaches. It would be great if every program had enough coaches to send their High School team to a high school tournament and their middle school team to  middle school tournament, but we don

i dont understand anyones logic for why a middle schooler, shouldnt be aloud to compete in middle school state. during the summer at summer tournaments kids can wrestle in two different age groups, why should the season be any different? i guess what i dont get is why if we have two 12 year old kids that both attend a middle school, should one of the kids not be aloud to wrestle the other kid, just because he would beat him easily, cause he has been wrestling two years longer. that would be like telling a freshman that just started wrestling, since it was his first year, he was only going to wrestle other first years at highschool tournaments, and forfeit all the other matches beause they didnt want him to actually lose. besides, don't kids gain more from losing, than winning? i know that in my time ive spent wrestling, i have learned a lot more when i have lost, than when i've won. if this is the case then why would someone want to wrestle middle school ALL YEAR that was capable of wrestling highschool? it makes more sense to me that a wrestler should wrestle what hes capable of wrestling. middle school state is pretty much just for bragging rights. they arent wrestling it necasarily because it means something to them, i feel they wrestle in it so they can say theyve won middle school state, and if the kid is still in middle school, why take that opportunity away from them?

tc125 said: "besides, don't kids gain more from losing, than winning? i know that in my time ive spent wrestling, i have learned a lot more when i have lost, than when i've won. if this is the case then why would someone want to wrestle middle school ALL YEAR that was capable of wrestling highschool? it makes more sense to me that a wrestler should wrestle what hes capable of wrestling. middle school state is pretty much just for bragging rights. they arent wrestling it necasarily because it means something to them, i feel they wrestle in it so they can say theyve won middle school state"

You're helping my argument here.  Some of these kids spend all year at varsity, then wrestle in the MS postseason for medals, bragging rights, and to say that they did it.  How is that benefiting anyone?  Are you telling me there's no quality varsity tournaments those weekends?  Heck, a couple of those guys at MS state didn't even look like they were enjoying themselves because it was so easy.  I'm just saying that I think in order for you to qualify for the postseason at either level, then you should have to wrestle in more than 50% of the team's matches at whichever level you choose, unless injury was a factor and you have medical documentation.

yes im sure there is a quality highschool tournament during the weekend of middle school state, but allowing a kid to wrestle, at an age group that he is in, is completely logical to me. whether or not he has wrestled highschool much of the season. maybe middle school state, is more important to these kids, than a highschool tournament that they may not medal in.

Once again, this is thoughts from the middle school tournament, not high school matches = no middle school state. Start a new post for people who want to argue this and talk about middle school state. I will change the subject by saying congratulations to Logan wedding. Now there is a kid with determination, heart, and class. Lots of people talk about how hard kids like wiley work to beat people that have beaten them in the past, well Logan works as hard as or harder than anyone in the state. When he gets down in a match his heart will not let him lose, as shown by his Peterson with 15 seconds left to beat fahy 2 years ago or his cradle this year against willen with 20 to go at regionals. Congrats Logan.

I read on here somewhere that Wedding goes to a private school in Evansville. Assuming this is correct should a wrestler (him or anyone else) be allowed to compete in the Kentucky Middle School Tournament that doesn't go to school in Kentucky? I know he wrestles for a club team vs a school team but shouldn't someone at least have to attend a school in Kentucky or is it enough to live in Kentucky to compete in the tournament?

then you should have to wrestle in more than 50% of the team's matches at whichever level you choose, unless injury was a factor and you have medical documentation.

For my kids that would have been easy because we wrestled NO MIDDLE SCHOOL MATCHES.  We had no Middle school team.  Only middle school wrestlers who wrestled with the high school team. 

Their 1st year out they had to compete high school varsity or not wrestle at all.  I had no assistant coach, no parental support and very little school support.

As for the chance I took evill dad.  A huge one if someone would have gotten hurt with a non-coach present I could have lost everything in a law suit.  Yeah I know a stupid decision but I did it for the kid.  (I only had one each year compete)

Don't kill the struggling programs who barely keep their heads above water on the high school level.  If you require a minimum of middle school matches teams like mine would never be able to have their kids compete at middle school region and state.

yes im sure there is a quality highschool tournament during the weekend of middle school state, but allowing a kid to wrestle, at an age group that he is in, is completely logical to me. whether or not he has wrestled highschool much of the season. maybe middle school state, is more important to these kids, than a highschool tournament that they may not medal in.

But you just said that they would benefit more from losing to better competition than they would from walking through MS state for "bragging rights."  And I agree with that, just like I agree with you when you said that MS doesn't necessarily mean that much to some kids.  I think that's unfortunate, but it looks to be true when you watch some kids' HS matches vs. their MS matches.

As for Wedding, he is so tough, the best wrestler in the toughest weight class this year.  If the whole private school in Evansville thing is true, though, that bothers me a little.  I know he is on a club team and all, but I think you should have to live here and go to school here.  How does that work at the high school level?  Anybody know?

I read on here somewhere that Wedding goes to a private school in Evansville. Assuming this is correct should a wrestler (him or anyone else) be allowed to compete in the Kentucky Middle School Tournament that doesn't go to school in Kentucky? I know he wrestles for a club team vs a school team but shouldn't someone at least have to attend a school in Kentucky or is it enough to live in Kentucky to compete in the tournament?

Seemed to work for Isaac Knable.

I read on here somewhere that Wedding goes to a private school in Evansville. Assuming this is correct should a wrestler (him or anyone else) be allowed to compete in the Kentucky Middle School Tournament that doesn't go to school in Kentucky? I know he wrestles for a club team vs a school team but shouldn't someone at least have to attend a school in Kentucky or is it enough to live in Kentucky to compete in the tournament?

Logan Wedding attends Holy Name in Henderson Kentucky.

No, that is not correct. Logan goes to a catholic middle school in Henderson, Kentucky called holy name. He is not allowed to wrestle in Indiana middle school state because he lives in Kentucky. How can you complain about a kid who has been such a class act? He will be attending a school in Indiana next year for highschool and hopefully winning an Indiana state championship. Don't worry, no one from Kentucky has to get "cheated" and lose to Logan again unless they come to the Harrison 10 way duals or mater dei holiday classic in the next 4 years.

sorry, didn't see the post above, that's correct.

I think everyone that does not want middle school kids who compete on the high school level wrestling middle school are missing the boat on this one.  The idea of creating middle school or elementary school wrestling is to get kids interested in the sport and grow the sport of wrestling.  Stop complaining, griping, feeling sorry for yourself that your kid might have lost to one of the so called "high school" wrestlers and be happy that we have a growing sport in the state of Kentucky.  There are several states that do not have a middle school state tournament and we are fortunate that some great coaches took the leap to make this happen.  Be supportive.  If you want changes to be made show up at the meetings, coach your kid to be better, work harder, but stop complaining.  This sport is not about complaining.  It is hard enough for these kids, as it is, than to have their parents, and I say parents, make it a pain in the ass for everyone else.  If the kids are in grades lower than 9th and live in KY, than they are allowed to wrestle in middle school if their program/school allows them to.  It's not that difficult to understand.  If you don't like the way things are than participate and try to make it better.   

I'm not saying a middle school can't wrestle middle school.  I'm just saying that you shouldn't be able to double-dip.  I'm thankful that KY wrestling is as big as it is, but sooner or later, these rules and organizational issues will have to be addressed.  And yes, if Knable did it like that, I think it sucks.  Not so much on his part, but on St X's part.  It is definitely not fair as far as the team aspect of it goes, because you could essentially compile an all star team of kids from all over and win a team state championship for your school even though none of those kids attend your school.  That makes no sense.

I'm not saying a middle school can't wrestle middle school.  I'm just saying that you shouldn't be able to double-dip.  I'm thankful that KY wrestling is as big as it is, but sooner or later, these rules and organizational issues will have to be addressed.  And yes, if Knable did it like that, I think it sucks.  Not so much on his part, but on St X's part.  It is definitely not fair as far as the team aspect of it goes, because you could essentially compile an all star team of kids from all over and win a team state championship for your school even though none of those kids attend your school.  That makes no sense.

I disagree with you regarding Knable.  I realize that this is a middle school discussion however if you are going to bring up the same issue as it relates to high school you need to understand the rules.  HS rules are based on where an individual attends school, not where they live.  If someone lives on a border between 2 states as in the case of Knable they compete with the school they attend.  He was not eligible to wrestle in Indiana.  Saying that St. X should render someone inelible to compete because they live accross the river in IN is nonsense.  That would just mean that he couldn't compete at all.  There are lots of kids all over the country that this affects. 

I am not positive about this but I believe KY MS rules is based on where an individual lives.  Someone should be able to check the by-laws and post the rule.  In either case Wedding is eligible because he both lives and attends middle school in KY.  Once he goes to HS and starts to attend a school in IN, then that is where he will have to wrestle.  He will no longer be eligible for high school wrestling in KY.

I am disappointed that after a great tournament the biggest thread isnt complimenting wrestlers and coaches but complaining about great wrestlers of legal age and grade showing up to wrestle.Kentucky wrestling is getting better and new bounderies will be set as we grow. People are on here talking about doing what is good for the youth all the time,how about trying to reward champions with praise of their hard work and skill instead of tarnishing their championship with jealous gossip that usually comes from a very unreliable source.I send my son to st.x and know that Isacc Knable lives in Indiana but went to school at st.x so he participated in his schools sports programs.I also have a 7th grade son who won middle school state this year and could win  a varsity spot at st.x and help their team,but the private schools dont allow middle schoolers to participate in high school sports as many of the public schools do.I just thought I would share that before we began to gossip about a great wrestler like Isacc Knable or a great school like st.x.                        

I will finish by congradulating all of our state champions and placers and say please keep up the good work guys you will be glad you did.

exactly work hard. it seems we are taking away certain state champions hard work, and making it seem like they shouldnt work hard if they want to wrestle middle school.

The other fact to consider is that wrestling is still a growing sport in Kentucky.  Allowing the more skilled wrestlers to wrestle up to greater competition will only continue to make the sport at all levels more competitive, thus pushing others to get better in order to compete.  There could be a day when the competition is such that you won't see many MS kids wrestling at the HS level because they aren't good enough.

and that is going to be a great day in the state of kentucky.

Maybe there should be something similar to a middle school JV state championship. Because if you take out the best middle school wrestlers (hs competition or not) that is essentially what it would be is an inferior state championship.

I'm not taking away anything from anyone, and your seemingly high road approach sounds just as bad as my seemingly complaining approach.  It's great that these guys work hard and win, and I commend them for that.  But like tc125 said earlier, some of them get little real enjoyment out of it and do it just to get a medal.  It seems like they would be better served wrestling at a tougher HS tourney, and it seems wrong for them to be eligible for MS state when they haven't wrestled at the MS level all year except for the postseason.  And yes its completely valid to question the age of every participant at every level.  Maybe that's a product of the world we live in today, but it's naive to think that all parents and coaches are above bending the rules.

While reading this thread what I heard was lets punish the great wrestlers by making them pick one or the other.I did not respond until it got to Logan Wedding and the very inaccurate info of his elligibility.Next in the line of fire Isacc Knable and the notion he shouldnt be able to participate at his schools sports.I try not to talk about peoples personal situations when I know alot about them I certainly find it taking the low road to talk about anyone when you dont know the whole story and it isnt in your power to change a thing. Yes we should all take the high road as often as possible.

Maybe there should be something similar to a middle school JV state championship. Because if you take out the best middle school wrestlers (hs competition or not) that is essentially what it would be is an inferior state championship.

The MS school programs are too young, Yes there are some programs better than others. These better programs will produce better kids (most of the time). Before talking about a middle school JV state championship, I think the time, effort and $ would be better spent at the elementary level. The early a kid gets involved with wrestling the better he will become. Wrestling isn't like other sports where you could take a kid and in two months make him a all state linebacker (if he has the ability and size) or baseball (good hand/eye coordination) a great baseball player. KY HS wrestlers are getting better as a state compared to OH, PA, NJ, MI, IN but they still have a long way to go. We should want all the kids to be the best they can be and that is about all they can do. What can we as Parents, Coaches, Administrators of schools and has been wrestlers do to help the kids of KY get better as to the other powerhouse states ? It will not happen overnight or next yr. Wrestling is a great sport and teaches kid more about responsibility, had work, mental toughness and just to do the right thing. One of the best places for a new kid to start wrestling is in USA wrestling or AAU programs. There they are matched up by age and weight, there are still studs there though. These programs will be starting soon, if you want your kid to get better get them involved. Below is a link to a training camp in OH, I talked to a father of one of the kids there and he said that they weren't training to be a State Champ but to win the Gold in the Olympics.

Should we lower the bar, keep it he same or keep raising it each year.

Make sure you read the References

Link: http://teammironwrestling.com/

I'm not taking away anything from anyone, and your seemingly high road approach sounds just as bad as my seemingly complaining approach.  It's great that these guys work hard and win, and I commend them for that.  But like tc125 said earlier, some of them get little real enjoyment out of it and do it just to get a medal.  It seems like they would be better served wrestling at a tougher HS tourney, and it seems wrong for them to be eligible for MS state when they haven't wrestled at the MS level all year except for the postseason.  And yes its completely valid to question the age of every participant at every level.  Maybe that's a product of the world we live in today, but it's naive to think that all parents and coaches are above bending the rules.

You should contact the KY State Middle School Wrestling Assoc. at http://www.kyswa.org/ with your concerns as they set the by-laws for MS wrestling in KY. If someone was in violation of the kyswa by-laws and you knew about it then report it or quit stirring the Pot. I you are not sure learn the by-laws and if there is a problem asked ?'s at that time. If by-laws are broken report it. Maybe you are a bit naive about the sport of wrestling and should get more involved, learn the rules, the by-laws and make KY a better wrestling State!

I meant that as a JOKE!

I meant that as a JOKE!

:-D

I'm not taking away anything from anyone, and your seemingly high road approach sounds just as bad as my seemingly complaining approach.  It's great that these guys work hard and win, and I commend them for that.  But like tc125 said earlier, some of them get little real enjoyment out of it and do it just to get a medal.  It seems like they would be better served wrestling at a tougher HS tourney, and it seems wrong for them to be eligible for MS state when they haven't wrestled at the MS level all year except for the postseason.  And yes its completely valid to question the age of every participant at every level.  Maybe that's a product of the world we live in today, but it's naive to think that all parents and coaches are above bending the rules.

As I have stated in earlier posts.  I support middle school kids wrestling middle school region and state no matter what they wrestled throughout the year. This is so that smaller programs can still develop their kids with little or no support.

I would also like to add.  My son wrestled 131 this year.  He had to compete against 3 of these middle school kids that competed in high school all year (Cooper, Jones, and Courtney). I have no objections to him placing lower in the state tourney because of these three.  He had to scratch his way to a 4th place finish in regions because of the first two.

He asked several times if he could move down a weight class to get away from them.  My response was NO.  Compete with the best and become the best.  I told him to stay at 131 even though he was down to 127-128 and in the week before region weighing 125 after practice one day.  I am much more proud of his 6th place finish behind Cooper, Jones, and Courtney than if he placed 3rd if these middle school kids were not allowed to compete.

Remember wrestling builds character in our youth.  It builds determination and the resolve to overcome the thoughest obstacles in life.  He will become a better wrestler and more importantly a better person because of his commitment to wrestling.

I'm not taking away anything from anyone, and your seemingly high road approach sounds just as bad as my seemingly complaining approach.  It's great that these guys work hard and win, and I commend them for that.  But like tc125 said earlier, some of them get little real enjoyment out of it and do it just to get a medal.  It seems like they would be better served wrestling at a tougher HS tourney, and it seems wrong for them to be eligible for MS state when they haven't wrestled at the MS level all year except for the postseason.  And yes its completely valid to question the age of every participant at every level.  Maybe that's a product of the world we live in today, but it's naive to think that all parents and coaches are above bending the rules.

TC125 is obviously a HS wrestler from Tates Creek, so unless you are a MS wrestler or a parent of one of these MS/HS wrestlers, which your not because your posts are too grammatically correct and you wouldn't have made these comments, neither one of you can speak for what these young men feel when they wrestle at the MS level.  I'm sure Kevin Cooper, Holtsclaw, and the many others took great pride in their accomplishments.  I went through the HS rankings looking for MS state qualifiers, and if I'm not mistaken, not all of them even placed at the MS level.  So the argument that they just do it to beat up on inferior competition and to collect medals doesn't fly.  Each season MS wrestling is getting more competitive and harder to place.  My son won MS state as a 6th grader last year, and this year came up a little short placing 2nd.  If he gains enough weight, next year as an 8th grader the plan is for him to try to fill a HS spot, but I can guarantee you that he doesn't feel like he has accomplished all that he can at the MS level, far from it.  He's already working harder than ever starting to  prepare for next season.  He's worked all week with a HS friend to help him get ready for region and state, and he's already asked me to start registering for off-season camps and tournaments.  I know for a fact that he isn't this determined and focused just to go and collect a medal.  It is to accomplish what he set out to do and came up short in doing.  Elementary and MS wrestling, I assume, were started to promote this great sport and for the kids.  Both are hurt when we as adults try to restrict their participation, or try to make it more than it is.  It is MS wrestling with young men/women student athletes (kids) participating.  Let them be kids, compete, and enjoy it.  Without these great young wrestlers at the MS state tournament, I'd have found the wrestling rather boring and would have preferred to stay at home.  Congratulations to all of the champions and placers!  Take pride in your accomplishments and ignore topics like this!  Like I should have!!!

first of all i went through wrestling in middle school, so i know what its like to wrestle as a middle schooler. second i didnt say they were doing it for the medals, i said they were doing it for the bragging rights and the pride of it. third, i also did not state anywhere, that this was definetly the case.

so tell me this ccms_sc, when your son, works his butt off this off season, and earns the varsity spot on his highschool team next season, how would you like it if some parents, or coaches tried to tell you not to let your kid compete in the regional and state middle school tournments?

I didn't mean any offense tc125 or hrvstrofsrrw.  I was just trying to make the point that no one really knows what they are feeling or thinking except those close to them.

To answer your question.  My son will wrestle MS region and state whether he earns a HS varsity spot or not because to him he has unfinished business, and I'd tell them to mind their own business and deal with it.  He's a 12 year old kid who will be a 13 year old kid at MS state next year.  No one has a right to take MS wrestling away from him or anyone else in a similar situation just because they're good enough or needed to fill a spot at HS.  As I said before, if this were to happen, we are only hurting the sport and the kids.

This same argument has been raised at the Elementary level in the past.  If you're in elementary but you're good enough/needed at MS, your participation at the Elementary level should never be taken away.  It is just plain wrong.  It's adults thinking only about their program or kid not about KY youth wrestling as a whole.

Wrestlers whether youth, MS, or HS only get better by practicing with/wrestling kids that are at their level or higher.  Take the best kids away, you hurt the sport as a whole, you hurt the kids, and you have KY wrestling never catching up with the surrounding states.

I also coach my daughters select soccer team, and the same can be said about soccer, basketball, football, baseball, or whatever.  We built our soccer team around one great player and it has helped develop the other 11 players.  They work harder, try harder, practice harder, etc. to compete at her level.  Tell her she can't compete on our team because she played here or there only hurts soccer as a sport, her, and the other 11 players on our team.  Next year as a 5th grader if she was asked to play for the MS or HS soccer teams, we would play with 11 and would take her back after the school season with open arms.

well said cc, and i completely agree with you, seems we are on the same page.

Interesting topic.......

I have coached 30 plus years in Indiana and last three in Kentucky.....Couple of observations and comments:

While in Indiana...Never, NEVER been to a tournament when you could not wrestle 3 or 4 because of 5 match rule.  Poor planning on tournament organizer...

Middle school kid DO NOT wrestle against High School students or in the state tournament....Let them be middle school kids. 

I think it is a wonderful thing there is a state middle school championship...But you need to run in more in a professional manner.

Just my opion...

I agree DrCradle, the 5 match rule is completely bogus.  And I too would be fine with middle school kids not being able to wrestle up.  Heck, I don't care if they are allowed, just pick one.  The way our MS wrestlers do it is our MS practices 3 days a week (M, W, F) right after school.  After MS practice, and on the days we don't practice, we encourage them to go practice with the HS team, just to get more mat time.  They're in MS, so they wrestle MS. 

In general, I think that if a kid can compete at the HS level, go for it.  If you're that good, then MS probably isn't challenging enough for you.  Even if you're not good enough but you still make the decision to go up, everyone on here has pretty much said that wrestling better competition makes you better and you learn more through hard knocks, so that would seem to be more beneficial to the individual. 

I can't help but think of a possible situation that could spring up from going back and forth.  Please bear with me.  Suppose you have 2 kids, same weight class (we'll say 103), both 8th graders.  Kid A demonstrates that he is a better wrestler than Kid B after the 1st week of practice.  The HS needs a 103 because there's nobody on the team is that small.  The HS coach says to the MS coach "I need your best 103," so Kid A gets the call.  Wrestling HS, Kid A gets significantly better because of the accelerated practices and the improved competition, and he sees a fair amount of success.  Meanwhile, Kid B has assumed the starting spot for MS 103.  He works hard at practice every day.  He, too, has improved greatly since the beginning of the season, but is still not to the level of Kid A.  However, Kid B wrestles well and has a great deal of success every weekend.  Fast forward to the end of January.  Kid A, who is now a legitimate contender for a HS region title, decides that he doesn't want to miss this opportunity to win a state championship, so he comes to MS practice the week before regionals, challenges Kid B, the season-long 103 and winner of multiple gold medals, and defeats him, taking his spot.  Kid A dominates at the MS state, spending a total of 56 seconds on the mat during his 4 matches.  As for Kid B, he may or may not have been able to still go to state (I heard they might change that rule about having 2 wrestlers per weight class per team, and I hope they do because it makes the brackets too big), he may have lost to Kid A in the finals, he may not have even been able to wrestle for a medal because of the 5 match rule; it doesn't matter. 

Assuming that the coach would allow that to happen, this scenario isn't impossible.  How would that be fair to anyone?  You're flushing Kid B's season down the toilet after he worked hard and was there every day, and Kid A could have been wrestling at a better tourney somewhere else at the HS level.  You're essentially saying that if someone's good enough then they can do whatever they want, regardless of who it affects, which flies in the face of sportsmanship, ethics, team play, etc., and I think those qualities should come 1st. 

On a related note, there was plenty of sportsmanship on display in E-town, I know, but then again, there was also some blatant jackassery on display as well.

Interesting topic.......

I have coached 30 plus years in Indiana and last three in Kentucky.....Couple of observations and comments:

While in Indiana...Never, NEVER been to a tournament when you could not wrestle 3 or 4 because of 5 match rule.  Poor planning on tournament organizer...

Middle school kid DO NOT wrestle against High School students or in the state tournament....Let them be middle school kids. 

I think it is a wonderful thing there is a state middle school championship...But you need to run in more in a professional manner.

Just my opion...

We in KY tried the no middle school kids allowed to wrestle high school.  We did not allow middle schoolers to wrestle high school varsity for about 3 years (1997-1999) Not exactly sure of the dates.

Here were the problems. 

1.  Many of the lower weight classes went unfilled.  KY does not have a strong enough wrestling population to keep these wt. classes filled with high school wrestlers. 

2.  We lost wrestlers because of this rule.  Many of the schools in Ky cannot support a middle school team.  Either because of only one coach, no support, or just not enough wrestlers.  There are still about a dozen teams, if not more, that have less than a dozen kids on their wrestling team, which include middle school wrestlers. These teams lost middle school wrestlers because the middle school wrestlers were unable to wrestle at all.

As for the 5 match rule.  What is the answer?  There is no way we can run a 2 day tournament.  Most of the schools would not allow the kids out of school for this event, and many of the schools travel 2+ hours to get there.

hrvstrofsrrw:  Yes your scenario is possible.  To me wrestler B got the better end of the deal.  He was able to participate all year as middle school varsity.  Otherwise he would have been sitting watching wrestler A all year and never improving.  Your situation gave 2 kids the opportunity to wrestle all year instead of just 1. 

      And I can't help but think about the situation I was in when I coached.  No middle school coach, no parental suppport, one middle school kid on the team (1st year wrestler). Got his butt whooped because he had to wrestle high school varsity (or not wrestle at all), went to middle school regional. (I broke school rules to allow this to happen, could have lost my job), he was successful and qualified for middle school state and was 2 and out. He is now still wrestling, (Actually this happened twice) and both have semi-sucessful seasons since.

Interesting topic.......

I have coached 30 plus years in Indiana and last three in Kentucky.....Couple of observations and comments:

While in Indiana...Never, NEVER been to a tournament when you could not wrestle 3 or 4 because of 5 match rule.  Poor planning on tournament organizer...

Middle school kid DO NOT wrestle against High School students or in the state tournament....Let them be middle school kids. 

I think it is a wonderful thing there is a state middle school championship...But you need to run in more in a professional manner.

Just my opion...

Not too long ago the State tournament was an open invitation to all eligible wrestlers.  And not too long before that there wasn't even Middle School wrestling.  Obviously there are some issues that need to be addressed and some of us are trying to do so.  If you want your opinion heard come to the meetings.  It's easy to point out flaws with the system but it's another thing to actually come up with a solution.  Just saying you need to run it in a more professional manner, or we NEVER had that problem, isn't helping.

Their was a huge lecture in the meeting at state about how ashamed the guy who was hosting the tournament was and how we are setting an example for the kids,parents and future wrestlers

I ask this.......

How is a ref able to take team points away when a coach is simply asking about if his wrestler had a fair takedown scored,when yet refs DO MAKE MISTAKES,and so does the scorekeepers and table workers....and this was pretty much one ref who also thought it was important for taking a team point away from a young wrestler who was just cheering he made it to the finals,NOT COOL!!!

In one match I had to run out on the mat because one kid didnt know he had a KIMOURA LOCK that looked like a headlock with not the arm but his elbow's pointing downward closed in like he was flexing,the ref waved me away till my kid screamed and popped his arm out of place!!!!!!!

next!!!

How are we proving that this sport is a good idea or competitive to take on when we have to flip a coin because of the 5match rule????

Maybe in a regular tournament that MIGHT BE a good idea but NOT STATE....

The only things I dont agree about is parents attacking coaches or refs or coaches attacking parents or refs,or coaches demeaning their kids in front of everyone but other than that,middle school state can use a few minor fixtures