If we continue to run a 32 man State Tourn., we have to start seeding the thing. We cannot continue to have the best daggone wrestlers meeting in the quarters and semi's. This on going problem needs to be resolved, but the only way is by having our coaches and parents forcing the hand of the KHHSAA and making them do something about this. In my own personal opinion, if we don't fix this problem, we will continue to have piss poor State Tournaments.

Chill out......and I dont think that is the kind of language that they want to be used on here. Here is the problem do you really want to spend the time to seed 32 guys in 14 weight classes. Probaly not. Even if you seed that top 8 it would take forever.

Pardon the language, but the State Tourn. loses all it's pizzazz before the finals ever starts. For the most part all of the better wrestlers have already met. You could easily seed the four top kids in each weight class.

Which weight classes are you talking about, because it looks like the brackets are pretty good this year compared to years past.

I couldn't agree more! This 32 man bracket has got to stop. I never want to see the #1 wrestler face a #2 or #3 in the quarters. Now if they lose in regionals thats another thing....

I would give anything just to go back to a 16 man bracket! It works great, sometimes the best wrestlers meet in semi's, but thats it.

32 man brackets are horrible.....

The 32 person brackets are a tad much, however seeding is done the best way it can be done given the current system. You cannot do the seeding based on rankings, which are purely subjective. Secondly, they don't release the draws until after region, which in my opinnion is the correct way to do this. They used to be relased prior to regions being finished and sandbagging was prevelant, a wrestler would loose a match on purpose to avoid facing a tough wrestler at the state tournament. It could be done like football, where the state is divided in half and you always no who you are facing (i.e. which region and district), but that system is worse than the current random draw we have in place for the state tournament. Which makes sure you don't have to face anyone from your region until the fourth round (if my math is correct) and you always face someone who has an opposite seeding of you (i.e. 1 vs. 4 and 2 vs. 3). Basketball also conducts a random draw, and often times the best teams are seeded against each other in the first round. Like anything else, the best wrestler usually wins it all, although having luck helps (the better you are the more good luck you create). Finally, no knock against anyone who finishes second, third, etc.... people typcially only remember the champ, regardless of who finished second or who they beat along the way.

Pardon the language' date=' but the State Tourn. loses all it's pizzazz before the finals ever starts. For the most part all of the better wrestlers have already met. You could easily seed the four top kids in each weight class.[/quote']

Right on,I agree fully in what ur saying last year was a big example of why they need to carefully seed n who cares who has the time to do it we arent the ones the people running the state tournament is,I mean think back 2 just last year some VERY GOOD matches were in the Semi's between the top wrestlers in the weight classes,and then when the finals came around you had people getting beat badily in making it loook like our state has some fishes in the finals,it could be alot better,back in the 90's they had 10 man I think or somethign like that n u saw the real deals they need to cut the 4th place medalist out of regionals to get 2 state thats wayyy too easy to get 2 state n return to a lower bracket

couldn't agree more, remember chris reed losing to bo hines 2-1 in the semis, then hines tech falls hardky in the finals???

exhawk:

I believe that Cody Walls was considered the second best in that wt. class that year. Hardke defeated Walls by 1 or 2 in the semi's and Reed defeated Walls 2-0 for 3rd.

As for seeding who would you have seed the tournament? If you allowed someone to seed the tourney then people would cry bias.

We also do not have any way of doing it. There is no form of formal record keeping in the state to come up with a solid way of seeding.

Record and such are dismissed because of many teams leaving the state to compete. In the past (80's 90's) Hoptown spent most of their season in Missiouri. Many of the Nky teams spend the majority of thier time in Ohio.

Once again seeding the state tournament is imposible and would take days to do so. If we were to try and seed this thing the state tourney would need to be a week later.

I do agree however that the 32 man bracket is to much. I would like to return to the District, Region, State set up again.

By the way are the pairing out somewhere?

You must mean second place; because whoever is the best is going to be Champ! it doesnt matter where he is in the brackets.

Good example this year.....Banks/Wilson in the quarters. That sucks for them. This should at least be a semi match if not finals.

In 16 man bracket, this would never happen.

Good example this year.....Banks/Wilson in the quarters. That sucks for them. This should at least be a semi match if not finals.

In 16 man bracket' date=' this would never happen.[/quote']

You are already showing the bias that would happen if it were seeded...It need's to be a random draw because of teams that wrestle out of state you don't want your supposed best wrestler losing in the first round to some kid no one has heard of because they wrestled out of state all the time...Remember Jeremy Hilger winning the state championship two years ago, it was against someone not many people knew about at the time and he gave him a hell of a good match

im not talking about seeding the brackets, im talking about going back to a 16 man bracket.

district, region, state. have making it to state mean something again.

i think it should be seeded but to save time khsaa should do the rankings and the rankings would go as seeds. If the khsaa did the rankings then they would have all the results they need in the computers. So instead of doing all the work the week before the tournament their first copy of the brackets will be in the coaches hands by sunday via email. And after a seeding meeting monday night everything will be ready two days before state.

justwrestle;

I'm taking some liberties here. Lets assume we return to the old ways.

Western Ky region is old region 1 and 2

Jefferson Co. region is old regions 3 and 4

Northern Ky region is old regions 5 and 6

Lexington region is old regions 7 and 8

This is the way it used to be.

Here is how I see the placements acording ro Rebels rankings.

WKy

1. Banks (Lar)

2. Ervin (Un Co)

3. Caraccilo (Ft C.)

4. Isaacs (And Co)

Jeff

1. Condor (X)

2. Beasley (Cen)

3. Walls (Bul Cen)

4. Radar (Val)

Nky

1. Wilson (CC)

2. Aylor (Ryle)

3. Berger (Fern)

4. Ford (SO)

Lex

1. Courtney (WC)

2. Wincherster (Wayne)

3. Ward (Har)

4. Scott (J-t)

I random drew the picks and sorted them like they use to.

WK drew Nk.

and

Lex drew Jeff.

I then drew the placements. It looked like this.

1. Banks (Lar)

4. Ford (SO)

3. Ward (Har)

2. Beasley (Cen)

2. Winchester (Wayne)

3. Walls (Bullit)

4. Isaacs (And)

1. Wilson (CC)

1. Condor (X)

4. Scott (JC)

3. Berger (Fern)

2. Ervin (UC)

2. Aylor (Ryle)

3. Canoccilo (Ft. C)

4. Radar (Val)

1. Courtney (Wood)

With this draw Aylor and Courtney would meet in the quarters.

It still happens in the 16 man bracket. But I agree that we should return to this format. We have to many kids that probably don't belong there.

how can they rankings in this case be subjective if they have all the results. The only way they can be subjective is if there is a circle or dead heat b/w 3 wrestlers. An example is when wrestler A beats wrestler B but loses to Wrestler C and Wrestler C loses to B. So i guess they would have to go through the trio and look for who pinned who and who got majored but if there is a tie again i guess it all comes to rock paper scissors. So this goes to show you no system is perfect look at ncaa football they had split champions not to long ago.

Salt:

They are also subjective if Wrestler A has not wrestled B, C, D, or E.

But has wrestled the top ranked in Ohio, Ind, ect ect ect and defeated some of them.

grapler of old, great example. But that Alyor/Courtney match would only happen in the quarters because he lost his region finals.

Wilson would never be wrestling a Banks or Courtney in the quarters because he won.

I just don't like seeing two #1s wrestling at 9am on Friday. Makes a bad tournament in my opinion.

Plus the 16 man bracket is only a two day tournament, three days is bit much.

This discussion happen each year.

Bottom line :arrow: no NO Regional Champion can meet up until the 1/4's, and yes, sometimes some great kids match up earlier than we fans might like. It sound like where just mad because the match-up in the finals isn't who we thought it would be.

Every year some top ranked wrestler loses his region and places 2nd or 3rd. We can't complain about top ranked guys meeting in the second round when this happens. They did that to them selfs. Plus, the ranking are opion's, best guess at best.

Look at 19 last year, (1) Ruschell, (1) Warner, (2) Bryant, (2) Veach. It happens, If Bryant and Veach won there region, it would have been Miller (state runner-up). So how do we figure the finals aren't the best guys FOR MOST Matches.

last year 119 finals should have bee Ruschell and Warner in my opion. But, Warner lost to Bryant :!:

So nothing is ever a lock.

A little foote note here;

The regions were split up because one district believed that when they combined with the other region there 5th place finishers were wrestlers that would place in the state tourney.

Region 7 was the one who believed this. When you look back at the results the truth is that regin 6 and suprisingly region 1 were the benificiaries of this opening of the state tourney.

Both of these regions (6 and 1) had more wins out of their 4th place finishers than any other region. Region 6 has continued this but region 1 has fallen off on this.

Bottom line: Opening the state to a 32 man bracket has only solidified the larger teams (not large school). Campbell, Ryle, Woodford, Larue, Trinity, St.X., are now qualifiying their entire teams almost every year. They have several wreslters at the state tourney that would otherwise not make the tourney.

This does not allow the smaller teams with a handfull of top notch wreslers to have a chance at the team title.

Simon Kenton is a good example, this year. They may have 2 champions (Coopers) and have a good showing from Brown, Vaughn, and possibly McDaniels. But they have no support from many others.

If you take away CC, WC, and some of the other teams extras that they will qualify and who will win a few matches SK is in the hunt, (A huge Darkhorse, but still in the hunt) Without the extras SK might be a top 5 team.

I prefer the 16 man bracket; 32 makes it too easy for some guys to get to state.

However, as it's been said before, the best wrestler still comes out on top. It doesn't make for such an exciting finals match, but the best guy always wins.

the 112 bracket is all screwed up all the top ranked guys

are at the bottom of the bracket

If all the good guys are on the opposite bracket that only means that someone had to beat them to put them there. Maybe the guys on the Easy side of the bracket are peaking at the right time and the bottom bracket had better watch out!!!!!

the 112 bracket is all screwed up all the top ranked guys are at the bottom of the bracket

UC112 - the rankings aren't perfect and as mentioned maybe some of the guys on the other side are peaking at the right time. I know that Johnson had a great regional tournment beating Carmen and Bradbury. Plus Lewis coming in as a #2 and Zarth #3 throws the bracket a little. But the Montgomery Co. kid was hot on the right night.

what did happen to districts????? I do agree its far too easy to get to state these days, put back in the districts and I think that will let the cream rise to the top at state....

I think the reason for the 32 man bracket is to get more kids, parents, and fans involved in the state tournament so they can see what an awesome event it is, THE BEST IMO. So by exposing more people to it there should be more interest generated in the sport. I'm not sure it's working, but I think the theory makes sense.

It is all about economics, which is directly tied to the number of fans that show up.

Economics was not the sole motivating factor in opening up the tournament to 32 per weight class. Revitalizing the sport had a great deal to due with the decision. From my observation, it worked. Having attended the state tournament regularly since 2000 and at Atherton (back in the day), there is a noticeable improvement in both attendance and participation from new and revitalized programs. Just attending the last day of the 2005 event was enough motivation to convert my gangly, basketball-playing nephew to wrestling.

Whether you be a purist or a just a casual fan, it's still "two men enter, one man leaves", or advances.

As i once said ... which would you prefer ? Keeping the guys out that don't deserve to be there, or guaranteeing all the good wrestlers will make it ? To me, keeping the weak ones out taking priority is like the kids who hang a sign on the clubhouse that says "No girls allowed".

Under the old format there's two scenarios. One is the districts line up with the talent evenly dispersed, the other is that they do not. If they are evenly spread out, the cream rises to the top in that case. If they don't, you make state less competitive. Thats right ... less. Take a stacked region (well, district if we went back to prior days) like the Region 6 140 or Region 6 152 pound class of last year. That "district" had 3 guys finish in the top 5 in each class. If they happen to match up against a "region" with a top ten wrestler or two, someone is screwed. The cream didn't rise to the top in this case. Implying the 16 man format guarantees that it does is then fallacious. No, you can't stop this from happening ever, because talent is variable across different weight classes in different "districts".

Take the 32 man format. Everyone and his brother makes it, ok. But, ALL the top 10 guys are all but guaranteed to get in unlike in the 16 format. Yes, the 16 man bracket is seeded, but what good is it if you seed guys that aren't top 10 wrestlers ? By the time state is over in 32 man format, the cream has risen ... always. Yeah, maybe the best guys didn't wrestle last, but so what ? You could have watched it earlier.

Yes' date=' the 16 man bracket is seeded, but what good is it if you seed guys that aren't top 10 wrestlers ? .[/quote']

The 16 man bracket was NOT seeded. It was done the same way it is done today a random draw.

I'm happy............ Are we going to state? If you are, be happy, if you are not (or someone you want to be), then lay off all the better way of doing things. What I see is that what ever works best for the squad or person is how that person likes it. State is on!!!!!!!!!!! May the best person win (I said person). What I see from some of you is that you are not happy unless you complain about something. Done!

See ya in Lexington.........maybe, if you are there. :winjavascript:emoticon(':wink:')

It's in Frankfort.

Ok, the 16 man wasn't seeded. That actually strengthens my argument, doesn't weaken it. No one still addresses the fact that it did exclude top 10 wrestlers ... all you did is repeat the cream rises to the top and point out fallacies i made in favor of the 16 man bracket and therefore diminish its attractiveness. I would conjecture at least at one weight class you would have top 10 wrestlers not make state under that format. Yeah, top two or 3 guys would be unaffected ... but what about after that ? How is that the cream rising ... i'd like to be guaranteed all the top 10 guys are slugging it out. The way i see it is you have weaker wrestlers at state if you don't guarantee that.

http://www.newsenterpriseonline.com/articles/2006/02/15/sports/sports01.txt

Article in the News Enterprise talking about seeding the state tournament.

If you have ever experienced the 1st day of the state tourney you know how horrible this round normally is. Only a couple of decent matches and blow outs the rest. If the state ever has to rent the venue they will lose money on the 1st day.

This is my biggest point. As for the top 10 wrestlers making it to state. What wt. class has 10 great wreslters in it?

As far as Ky goes if we have 6 great kids in a wt. class it is considered a killer wt. class.

This is why I want to return to the 16 man bracket. Cuts out one day, cuts out many who don't belong, cuts out 7th and 8th placers.

I like the 32 man bracket.

The best part is every year a 4th seed beats a 1 seed and even wins his second round match.

We want the best kids at state correct how many 3 seed from some regions go on medal; but, under the 16 man system they wouldn't even be ijn the tournament :?:

How many kids medal that weren't ranked by Coach Coomes system, he only ranks 10-12 kids :?:

Ranked kids matching up to early, with rangers ranking (20-25) kids; yes, ranked kids match up.

Yes we have some top ranked kids match up in the second and third rounds, if its in the second then the top ranked kid had to of lost the finals of his region :idea: so sorry for the draw.

Three round is the first time the number ones can match up, and we always have second and even third seed kids in that round.

Yes, some of the best matches are the Semi's, but it's like that in any sport. The best kids don't always make it to the finals, and even more its not always the crowd favorite.

But it also cuts out alot of money made so unfortunately i dont see the 16 man coming back anytime soon

I feel that a state tournament loses much of its prestige by implementing a 32-person bracket and "giving out medals" to a large number of participants. If keeping the parents from griping because their son didn't get a medal is such a big deal, then just give "participation medals" to every wrestler who walks in. 16-person, period. District, Regional, and State -- only the top 3 advance, and only 3 medals given per weight class at state. And when you hear someone say, "Wow, so and so is really good, he made state last year," it would actually MEAN something.

As for difficulty and bias in seeding, I don't feel there is any -- if done correctly. What it takes is an impartial person who knows wrestling (coach, fan, former wrestler, etc), who will sit down and analyze the individual record of each wrestler who qualifies, taking into consideration such things as home mat advantage, quality of competition, in and out-of-state matches, point margins, and the whole nine yards. Bottom line, it takes objectivity and initiative -- and not a rocket scientist -- to seed a wrestling tournament.

As for the "best wrestler winning anyway," that's not always the case. A great wrestler could be having a bad day, and a not-so-great wrestler might be having a good day. Yes, that also could happen with 16 people and seeding, but the chances of a really good wrestler losing to a not-so-good wrestler are diminished because only the very TOP wrestlers would even be at state in the first place -- I doubt that a not-so-good wrestler could advance to state by lucking up at District and Region both.

What it all comes down to is a battle between prestige and economics. Sure, a 32-person bracket gives the schools (the government) a much-needed financial boost, but the trade-off is not good for the sport's participants. It doesn't give them something truely unique to shoot for.

The State tournament should be a tournament OF the very best and FOR the very best -- and only the very best. All others: practice harder or take up chess.

mat-mopper:

You have my vote for representing us at the meetings. You are so much more articulate than myself and able to lay it all out there in a much more balanced arguement.

What they should do is make the state tournament two weeks after region. then all coaches have meetings in the off week to seed the top 8 wrestlers, using the best records and common opponents. and then once seedings over, do a random draw of the remaning wrestlers for the 1st round. Easy

This 32 man format has its flaws but its still really cool. Look at all the kids that get to participate, and if you think the tournament is watered down, maybe so but ask the kids that didnt qualify what they think. The 32man bracket has detractors because of its size but it also has its supporters that say the more wrestlers the bigger the accomplishment of the winner.

I think the best wrestler still wins, regardless of who they meet and when they meet em if they dont get it done on the mat then they arent the better wrestler. Thats the beauty of this sport win or go home!

A 16 man format doesn't fix the problem, because in the past, you would have two very tough regions face each other at regionals and end up having some of your best wrestlers get knocked out of state. At the same time, some districts were getting free lunches because they were competeing against relatively weak regions. In other words, a 16-man bracket presents an equal if not greater possiblity that a top wrestler will face a weak opponent. Maybe we should just make it a 64 man bracket, seed the top 8 in each weight class, wrestle all week, and may the best man endure and win.

Okay so the basic point I'm seeing being made here is that the best 2 guys in each weight class should be the ones duking it out in the finals...correct? If that was always the case, what would be the point in having the tournament in the first place? Just grab the top 2 guys and have them wrestle for the state championship. I like the 32 man bracket. Wrestling is about one thing, and one thing only: the wrestlers. Talk to a few of the "mediocre" guys who "don't belong in the tournament" because they placed 3rd of 4th in their region. They may not medal; they may not even win a match. But the oppurtunity to wrestle in the state tournament is an experience of a lifetime, and it's something that these kids will remember for the rest of their lives, win or lose. You can't take that away from the kids.

I feel that a state tournament loses much of its prestige by implementing a 32-person bracket and "giving out medals" to a large number of participants. If keeping the parents from griping because their son didn't get a medal is such a big deal' date=' then just give "participation medals" to every wrestler who walks in. 16-person, period. District, Regional, and State -- only the top 3 advance, and only 3 medals given per weight class at state. And when you hear someone say, "Wow, so and so is really good, he made state last year," it would actually MEAN something.

As for difficulty and bias in seeding, I don't feel there is any -- if done correctly. What it takes is an [i']impartial person who knows wrestling (coach, fan, former wrestler, etc), who will sit down and analyze the individual record of each wrestler who qualifies, taking into consideration such things as home mat advantage, quality of competition, in and out-of-state matches, point margins, and the whole nine yards. Bottom line, it takes objectivity and initiative -- and not a rocket scientist -- to seed a wrestling tournament.

As for the "best wrestler winning anyway," that's not always the case. A great wrestler could be having a bad day, and a not-so-great wrestler might be having a good day. Yes, that also could happen with 16 people and seeding, but the chances of a really good wrestler losing to a not-so-good wrestler are diminished because only the very TOP wrestlers would even be at state in the first place -- I doubt that a not-so-good wrestler could advance to state by lucking up at District and Region both.

What it all comes down to is a battle between prestige and economics. Sure, a 32-person bracket gives the schools (the government) a much-needed financial boost, but the trade-off is not good for the sport's participants. It doesn't give them something truely unique to shoot for.

The State tournament should be a tournament OF the very best and FOR the very best -- and only the very best. All others: practice harder or take up chess.

so wrong...32-man bracket ensures that all of the best wrestlers get into state and allow for upsets so if a good wrestler doesnt bring his A-game then its over for him...and i dont think it should be honor to say you made it to state, its an honor to place at state...plus have fun finding someone who is going to have an unbiased opinion on every single wrestler in the state and who is willing to take the time...not so easy

so wrong...32-man bracket ensures that all of the best wrestlers get into state...

There is a difference between good' date= better, and best. Can you honestly say that someone who finished so low in their region that they just BARELY made state, is one of the "best"? Why do very few other sports do it? Why do the Olympics (another contest of only the best) only hand out gold, silver and bronze medals?? It would turn the event into nothing more than a circus if they started awarding copper, nickel, almuninum, and alloy medals.

I agree with Yellowjacket in the fact that the tourney needs to be seeded. THERE ARE TO MANY FINALS MATCHES BEING WRESTLED IN THE QUARTERS AND SEMIS!!!! For example two years in a row Jacob Murton has wrestled his toughest matches of the year in the quarters (2004 i cant remember his name but he was from ballard and in 05 it was robert smith) bot h of thoes boys were the number 2 wrestler in the state in there weight classes that year and they only were able to get third that is not right. I also think that the bracket should be cut to a 16 man just like al the powe r house states, Ohio,iowa, Florida, And Pa. But that is just my idea let me know if you thik im wrong but i feel a state tourney that is seeded will give people a more exciting thing to watch in the finals. Many college scouts only come to watch the finals.

After watching these last couple days I would say better refs might help to. I seen a couple who are terrible. I wont say any names but I seen one ref who refuses to get down to get count near falls. I think that is an absolute joke.

At 160, Region 6 is wrestling for the top 3 positions. At 215, Region 5 is aiming for positions 1-3. Both Coopers from Simon Kenton are in finals at 152 and 160.

At 160' date=' Region 6 is wrestling for the top 3 positions. At 215, Region 5 is aiming for positions 1-3. Both Coopers from Simon Kenton are in finals at 152 and 160.[/quote']

Exactly right my friend. Finishing 3rd or 4th in one of these regions seems to not doom you to the cellar as whoever that was implied it does. A perfect example of a benefit of the 32 man format. Had region 5 come up against region 7 in the 16 man format or region 6 and 7, you'd have risked diluting the field at 215 or 160. But so long as we keep the weak ones out all is good ....

Every year this would happen almost. I believe last year region 6 had two different weight classes (140, 152) with 3 semi finalists. If you want to cut it down to three medalists ... whatever ... but i can't see how cutting the size of the field helps this at all. Just because a powerhouse state only has 16 guys (after about 4 rounds of elimination ... not two ... huge population difference in Ohio .. part of why they're a powerhouse), it doesn't make us a powerhouse state by copying that.

Cougar,

I totally agree with your take on the reffing down there. I've heard of and seen the guy you're speaking of ... that guy must have mirrors on his shoes so he can see the shoulders relative to the mat.

A few things (IMHO):

1) If tennis can figure out a way to seed the top 16 in its state tournaments (which are TWICE as large per division), wrestling should be able to do it to. Move State back a week (or region up a week or the start of the season up a week) and have a seeding meeting like the tennis people do the week before State.

2) Bigger IS NOT always better. That's one of the problems with the KHSAA football playoffs. Currently, 0-10 teams can make the playoffs if they're in a four-team district, but some 7-3 teams are left sitting at home because they got stuck in an 8-team district. And the six-class proposal that the football coaches want (allowing nearly 80 percent of all competing teams to make the playoffs) is a participation thing, not a qualification thing. Same thing with the NIT in men's basketball or all of the minor bowl games in college football. They both allow more kids to compete, but who all REALLY cares other than the competitors themselves (and their families, friends and schools)? Advertisers don't care. The media doesn't care. Fans don't care (stadiums are barely halfway filled most of the time in those cases).

3) Why do you think the media coverage of the final day of the tournament is way, way more heavy on the final day of the tournament than on the first day? It's because no one cares and relatively anything newsworthy never happens (the top three or four teams - Woodford, South Oldham and LaRue - are out in front like they always are) and 90 percent of the first-round matches are major decisions, tech falls or first-round pins. Yawn. You CANNOT compare that to the NCAA Tournament (which the first rounds are usually sold out and there are upsets 25-30 percent of the time. Plus, less than 25 percent of the schools that play D-I college basketball qualify for the NCAA tournament).

4) If you really wanted to, there is a way to EXPAND the state tournament and make it go faster at the same time if you allow every school to go to state, you just need to add two more rounds (since there are less than 128 schools with wrestling in Kentucky). If you kill off the consolation bracket (again, tennis doesn't have one, track you either qualify for finals or you're done, cross country every one competes at the same time and you're done in 30 minutes, golf you either qualify for the second day or you're done and swimming you qualify for the medal rounds or you're done), you'd be done a lot faster. Wrestlers that make it to the quarterfinals would be assured of medals; People that lose in the semis meet for 3rd and fourth place, people that lose in the quarters have a four-way tourney for places 5, 6, 7 and 8).

5) Wrestling is unlike EVERY OTHER individual sport in Kentucky. Cross Country, golf, swimming, tennis and track and field kids all have pretty hard roads to get to State. They do a lot more than win one match or two at region (you must win at least three times - and rarely two - to make it to state in tennis. Region tennis tournaments, by the way, are SINGLE elimination). Basketball, Baseball, Softball, Soccer and Volleyball teams must survive a bunch of rounds (usually 4 or 5) to qualify for the state tournament. Getting to State MEANS something in just about every sport. I don't think it does in wrestling. Getting to State in wrestling is NOT an achievement anymore ... it's expected.

You are NOT a good wrestler if you make it to State ... you're a horrible one if you don't.

A few things (IMHO):

Getting to State MEANS something in just about every sport. I don't think it does in wrestling. Getting to State in wrestling is NOT an achievement anymore ... it's expected.

You are NOT a good wrestler if you make it to State ... you're a horrible one if you don't.

Excellent, and THANK YOU!

A few things (IMHO):1) If tennis can figure out a way to seed the top 16 in its state tournaments (which are TWICE as large per division)' date=' wrestling should be able to do it to. Move State back a week (or region up a week or the start of the season up a week) and have a seeding meeting like the tennis people do the week before State..[/quote']

There are two problems here.

1. To many out of state wrestling going on to truly seed the tournament and no official place to send in results to verify the claims of records.

2. We can't move the state tourney back because they don't want to double up against the basketball, swimming tournaments.

I couldn't agree more.

grappler-of-old,

The State wrestling tournament is ALREADY on the same weekend as the state swimming championship. They've been like that for a couple of years now.

And State could still be pushed back a week (for seeding meeting or to bring back the district tournament). Basketball districts aren't until next week (so wrestling could still be pushed back a week and be over and done with before basketball postseason begins).

Tennis doesn't have an official place to turn in results, either. All coaches are required to bring in each players' match-by-match records to the conference tournament meeting (no districts in tennis) and the region tournament meeting as well as the state tournament meeting (if they feel they have a player worthy of getting seeding; if you are not seeded, you are in a blind draw).

HCWolverines06:

Everything you talk about and think you know about has been addressed.

Unless you are familiar with KY State Wrestling for KHSAA and the coaches that work together to continue to make our sport grow , who are you to assume anything.

KWCA works closely with KHSAA to continue to improve wrestling in KY. Every suggestion or change you suggest has a downside which has already been researched and proven not to be appropriate at this time.

everyone has an opinion, be part of the solution !!!!!

With the tournaments I've been involved with, there was a "seeding meeting" the week prior. The coaches would bring their teams' info to the meeting and decide amongst themselves.

I was not a coach, but I did attend several of these meetings while acting in a similar capacity. I think I witnessed only one disagreement/argument the entire time, and it (the disagreement) lasted less than 20 mins.

One of the most important things, at least at the meetings I attended, was that the CRITERIA and the amount of WEIGHT given each criteria were decided and agreed upon BEFORE individual wrestlers were discussed. This eliminated all the "sentimental favorite" arguments.

HCWolverines06:

Every suggestion or change you suggest has a downside which has already been researched and proven not to be appropriate at this time.

everyone has an opinion' date=' be part of the solution !!!!![/quote']

Coach, no offense intended here, I'm sure you know your stuff quite well, but...

Every solution begins with an opinion. Uniformity of opinion at the "official" level, even when it entails beating a dead horse, doesn't necessarily make the collective solution the "right" solution. Of course there are downsides; there are downsides to everything. It's just that some organizations look for opportunity in every difficulty, and other organizations look for difficulty in every opportunity.

I think we all can agree that Kentucky Wrestling, while an excellent all-around program, is severely lacking in the areas of organization and meaningful format.

A few things (IMHO):

. I don't think it does in wrestling. Getting to State in wrestling is NOT an achievement anymore ... it's expected.

You are NOT a good wrestler if you make it to State ... you're a horrible one if you don't.

Again an opinion from a non-wrestler,

Tell that to the wrestlers that train and compete each year to have the chance to go to state, and they practice harder then any other sport to wrestle 3, two minute periods.

Mat-Mopper;

You need to attend some of the regional/old district seeding meetings.

In the past Northern Kentucky had several of these meetings that lasted after midnight, (starting the meeting at 6-7 pm)

Many times it almost ended in a bar-room brawl. Some even wanted to decide it in the parking lot or hallway.

Most of the regular season tourneys have easy meetings because the coaches know there is no importance to placing like at the regional/district or heaven help us (state seeding meetings)

I understand competely, there is always room for improvement.

But I call it "Growing Pains", and thats a good thing!!!!

Coach' date=' no offense intended here, I'm sure you know your stuff quite well, but...

Every solution begins with an opinion. Uniformity of opinion at the "official" level, even when it entails beating a dead horse, doesn't necessarily make the collective solution the "right" solution. Of course there are downsides; there are downsides to everything. It's just that some organizations look for opportunity in every difficulty, and other organizations look for difficulty in every opportunity.

I think we all can agree that Kentucky Wrestling, while an excellent all-around program, is severely lacking in the areas of organization and meaningful format.[/quote']

As has been stated by myself several times on this site. Ky wrestling does NOT sit back and let things linger.

The state tourney and other aspects of wrestling has changed dramaticly since the 70's.

They have used 5 different formats for the state tourney since 1980. Wrestling has had 4 or 5 different wt class designations.

And has added about 20 new programs since 1980.

This is progress. Ky wrestling has not set back and let things happen. They also do not just jump into things without it being thought through.

I would guess that most of the coaches do not want many of these changes that are being talked about on here. If they did then I believe that the change would be made.

Mat-Mopper;

You need to attend some of the regional/old district seeding meetings.

In the past Northern Kentucky had several of these meetings that lasted after midnight' date=' (starting the meeting at 6-7 pm)

Many times it almost ended in a bar-room brawl. Some even wanted to decide it in the parking lot or hallway.

Most of the regular season tourneys have easy meetings because the coaches know there is no importance to placing like at the regional/district or heaven help us (state seeding meetings)[/quote']

If I would have been there, I'd have left in a flash LOL! But I can see how seeding meetings could go that route. The more that's ironed out and understood UP FRONT, the better, although still not a guarantee of peace. Also, I think some coaches come to such meetings carrying heavy emotion, while others come armed with the cold hard facts -- and show their emotions during the tournaments.

One of the coaches I wrestled under, G.P. West, was one of the calmest and most well-composed people in school and wrestling-related meetings; but when there was a controversial call out on the mat, he would sometimes get so upset that he would have to be physically carried out of the gym -- only to return minutes later even madder than he was before!

I understand competely' date=' there is always room for improvement. But I call it "Growing Pains", and thats a good thing!!!![/quote']

I agree with that part

As has been stated by myself several times on this site. Ky wrestling does NOT sit back and let things linger.

The state tourney and other aspects of wrestling has changed dramaticly since the 70's.

They have used 5 different formats for the state tourney since 1980. Wrestling has had 4 or 5 different wt class designations.

And has added about 20 new programs since 1980.

This is progress. Ky wrestling has not set back and let things happen. They also do not just jump into things without it being thought through.

I would guess that most of the coaches do not want many of these changes that are being talked about on here. If they did then I believe that the change would be made.

I know that the state doesn't "sit back;" in fact, I think they have been pretty aggressive. But the issue, I feel, is coming up with the "right" solution. Also, I measure "progress" differently than most people on this board. I measure "progress" by how far they go in terms of moving BACK to the 1970s-80s format, and not farther away from it.

kdsmith27,

"Again an opinion from a non-wrestler"

"Unless you are familiar with KY State Wrestling for KHSAA and the coaches that work together to continue to make our sport grow , who are you to assume anything."

So because I'm not a wrestler or not involved in the set up of the state tournament, my opinion doesn't matter? You know that's completely and utterly illogical.

I doubt you have much - if any - journalism training, but that didn't stop you from getting on THIS very message board from stating your opinion on the job that Chuck and my brother do at the newspaper. So, by using your logic, anything you say about the newspaper should have NO MERIT WHATSOEVER because you have no training, have never done their job and are not directly involved.

Look, I ran cross country. It's tough stuff to run 3.1 miles up and down hills in the cold, wind, rain or blinding heat. But just because "I try hard" doesn't mean I am one of the best in the state or I deserve to go to the state tournament. I also played tennis (although I wasn't very good) for three years. Some of my matches could take an hour. That will wear you out running and jumping and hitting like that continuously. But that doesn't mean I deserve to go to State. Unlike wrestling, tennis and cross country are EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to go to State in. Our tennis region had 30 kids in it. Only four go to state. Likewise, my cross country region had over 100 kids. Only about 30 go on (unlike half the region - or more than half in some instances - in wrestling, no matter if the kids are really that good or not).

"Trying hard" is NOT a reason for going to the state tournament. Nearly every coach in the state in every sport will have one or two kids that "are the hardest workers you'll find."

Before you started coaching at North, four of the five area head coaches went on the record and said that the 32-man bracket cheapened what it meaned to qualify for State. I doubt many opinions have changed, especially when LaRue County sends nearly its entire team every other year.

I would agree that many kids would say it is special to go to State. However, I bet many would also agree that it is NOT NEARLY AS HARD to get to State as it was, say, about six years ago. Winning one or two matches isn't nearly as hard as tennis (three without losing) or soccer, baseball, basketball, softball or volleyball (four wins).

I'm trying not to make this personal, but people are going to voice their opinions whethere they are directly involved or not. Not many of us have played for UK for are involved in UK's coaching, but how many UK fans go on message boards, attend games, boo, cheer, write in to newspapers or call radio stations? THOUSANDS. Are you saying that UK shouldn't care about any of them because they're not directly involved?

The way that State is set up is good, but it could be MUCH better.

And just because the KHSAA says "this is the way it is going to be" DOES NOT MEAN the KHSAA is correct or is making the best choice. Take a look at a map where schools are located. Trinity and St. Xavier, at minimum, should be in the same football district. Or at least the same region. But no, they're not even in the SAME bracket when it comes to the football playoffs because the KHSAA knows how much money a St. X-Trinity final will bring in. Is that a good monetary decision? DEFINITELY. But is it fair? DEFINITELY NOT.

A few years back, the KHSAA thought it was fair to have Hardin County schools drive clear across Jefferson and Bullitt County (both of which are nearby) to play Oldham County and Shelby County for DISTRICT GAMES. That wasn't fair at all.

No format will satisfy everyone.

Think the KHSAA Wrestling Tourn. is a marathon, check these state tournaments out (read about Georgia's):

http://themat.com/index.php?page=showarticle&ArticleID=14032

kdsmith27' date='

"Again an opinion from a non-wrestler"

"Unless you are familiar with KY State Wrestling for KHSAA and the coaches that work together to continue to make our sport grow , who are you to assume anything."

So because I'm not a wrestler or not involved in the set up of the state tournament, my opinion doesn't matter? You know that's completely and utterly illogical.

[b']How exactly does your opinion matter? What can YOU do for the sport of wrestling? Absolutely nothing !!!!

I doubt you have much - if any - journalism training, but that didn't stop you from getting on THIS very message board from stating your opinion on the job that Chuck and my brother do at the newspaper. So, by using your logic, anything you say about the newspaper should have NO MERIT WHATSOEVER because you have no training, have never done their job and are not directly involved.

Frankly, you don't no if I do or Don't. But you Don't

Look, I ran cross country. It's tough stuff to run 3.1 miles up and down hills in the cold, wind, rain or blinding heat. But just because "I try hard" doesn't mean I am one of the best in the state or I deserve to go to the state tournament. I also played tennis (although I wasn't very good) for three years. Some of my matches could take an hour. That will wear you out running and jumping and hitting like that continuously. But that doesn't mean I deserve to go to State. Unlike wrestling, tennis and cross country are EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to go to State in. Our tennis region had 30 kids in it. Only four go to state. Likewise, my cross country region had over 100 kids. Only about 30 go on (unlike half the region - or more than half in some instances - in wrestling, no matter if the kids are really that good or not).

As our region grows as it is, the numbers will equalize, and maybe have enough schools to break into Districts. The top 4 in most regions are good. It may be easier to get to State, But it is not easy to win state

"Trying hard" is NOT a reason for going to the state tournament. Nearly every coach in the state in every sport will have one or two kids that "are the hardest workers you'll find."

Wrestlers don't try hard, they either Win or Lose, depending on their training and conditioning.

Before you started coaching at North, four of the five area head coaches went on the record and said that the 32-man bracket cheapened what it meaned to qualify for State. I doubt many opinions have changed, especially when LaRue County sends nearly its entire team every other year.

That was then, This is now. until our sport grows more in KY and it is, this will be the way it is.

I would agree that many kids would say it is special to go to State. However, I bet many would also agree that it is NOT NEARLY AS HARD to get to State as it was, say, about six years ago. Winning one or two matches isn't nearly as hard as tennis (three without losing) or soccer, baseball, basketball, softball or volleyball (four wins).

Other sports do not compare to wrestling's endurance.

I'm trying not to make this personal, but people are going to voice their opinions whethere they are directly involved or not. Not many of us have played for UK for are involved in UK's coaching, but how many UK fans go on message boards, attend games, boo, cheer, write in to newspapers or call radio stations? THOUSANDS. Are you saying that UK shouldn't care about any of them because they're not directly involved?

The way that State is set up is good, but it could be MUCH better.

And just because the KHSAA says "this is the way it is going to be" DOES NOT MEAN the KHSAA is correct or is making the best choice. Take a look at a map where schools are located. Trinity and St. Xavier, at minimum, should be in the same football district. Or at least the same region. But no, they're not even in the SAME bracket when it comes to the football playoffs because the KHSAA knows how much money a St. X-Trinity final will bring in. Is that a good monetary decision? DEFINITELY. But is it fair? DEFINITELY NOT.

Focus, this is wrestling, not another sport. Our concern is wrestling, but then you wouldn't understand BECAUSE you have never wrestled

A few years back, the KHSAA thought it was fair to have Hardin County schools drive clear across Jefferson and Bullitt County (both of which are nearby) to play Oldham County and Shelby County for DISTRICT GAMES. That wasn't fair at all.

HCWolverines06 -

I'm sorry, I couldn't get over your "tough stuff" comment about running for 3.1 miles.... ....sorry, i can't help but laugh at a cross country dude getting on a wrestling site talking about "tough stuff" running for 3.1 miles over hills in bad weather.....I'd like to see 1/2 of those guys go for 2-3 hours of wrestling practice, go home and eat a SMALL meal....then put the sweats back on to run 5 miles in the middle of the winter. How often does this happen? Like every team I've been around has kids doing this. I noticed Coty Lewis after he won Friday night took a nice jog around the civic center....he looked WHOOPED physically after that match, but he got up and ran.

You also seem to be hung up on numbers for some reason...the state tournament as a 32 man bracket is perhaps slightly cheapened. Who cares? This is such a dead horse. And to compare it to other sports is just non-sense. Who cares if it's harder (numbers wise) to make it to state in cross-country, or girls badmitten than it is in wrestling? You can bring up all the numbers you want...when I was in h.s., we had kids go out for tennis and qualify for state in their FIRST year. Cross-country....out of 100 kids, 30 go to state....well, I'd say those 70 people not going sucked...they were probably mostly extras or backups from their school....correct?

This is kentuckyWRESTLING.com...if you think you can come on here and talk smack about how it's easy to go down state in wrestling and tough..... ...in cross country and tennis, you gotta expect to be laughed at...that's just hillarious!

pioneer_pride,

Oh. Wow. Another genius from the "you don't wrestle, so you don't know nothin" camp. That's "hillarious" to me.

Just like qualifying for State wrestling has become easier in the past five or so years, qualifying for State tennis has become harder. Kids no longer get to go to State because their school won the team title. If you don't make it to at least the semifinals (usually a 32-man bracket, at minimum a 16-man bracket) without losing, you have NO CHANCE at going to state. No first-year tennis players qualified for the state tournament in tennis last year. There were some that it was their first year on the team, but not their first year of tennis as a whole. But a first year kid in our local wrestling region (Fort Knox's Anthony Bailey) won the region title and won two matches at state. I know of another kid (although NOT a first-year wrestler) that didn't come out until December (and no, it had nothing to do with an injury) and then won the region title and placed at State.

Maybe the 70 kids that don't qualify for State in Cross Country suck. But it is possible that the 4 or so kids per region in wrestling that don't qualify suck too. It could be possible that some kids that qualify for State in wrestling suck too (I don't think if you have a losing record you should be considered good in any sport - basketball, football, wrestling, tennis, badminton, etc., but that's just me).

As far as who competes in cross country regionals, only nine kids max per school. Top five count as team scores.

I'm not saying tennis or cross country are tougher than wrestling. I never did and never will. Wrestling is one - if not the - toughest physical sport there is. I doubt many - if any - cross country kids could hack it on the mat. However, I doubt many wrestlers can run 3.1 miles on a not-so-flat course in the cold in less than 18 minutes, 32 seconds (that's what it would take to finish in the TOP 50 in the weakest class in cross country at State). Or that many wrestlers can freestyle swim 500 meters in less than 5 minutes, 23 seconds (what it took to qualify for State this year). Or many wrestlers that can shoot an 82 in the wind on a 6,737-yard, par-72 course (what it took to make the cut at boys' state golf this year).

But I will stick to my guns and say that under the current setup, it is easier to qualify for State in wrestling than it is in ANY other sport in Kentucky. It may be because wrestling is also the smallest sport (in terms of schools with full teams). In some regions half - or more than half - of the kids qualify for State wrestling. You won't find 50 percent or better odds like that in ANY sport (even cross country or tennis or girls' volleyball).

Serious questions:

- Unless you're in a stacked region (featuring at least 2 ranked wrestlers), do you really think qualifying for State is that difficult?

- Do you really think the media (newspapers, TV stations, possibly radio) will ever show up on the first day of state (as compared to the final day) if a majority of the matches are first-round pins or major decisions or T-falls?

- Other than "more kids get to compete", what exactly are the benefits of a 32-man bracket?

- With wrestling growing, why would it be bad to go back to a district-region-state format?

Coach Smith,

I have helped the wrestling community by posting links to news stories about wrestling or by posting results.

How have you helped The News-Enterprise other than complain (especially when The News-Enterprise's coverage was comparable - or better than - every other daily newspaper in the state)?

HC;

The reasoning for opening the state tourney were these:

1. Some regions believed that when the two districts combined to make a region it took some kids out that may have placed at the state tourney. Some believed thier alternates at region could place top 6 at the state tourney.

2. It was believed that if they got more kids to the state tourney then they could get more kids intereested in wrestling. It was also the belief that the schools would be more supportive of the teams if they were qualifying kids to the state tourney.

I'm not sure if I agree with the 1st reason, but the second may have some validity. The sport has grown since the beginning of the 32 man bracket. The question I ask is, when do we return to the old format because we are no longer desperate for kids to participate in the sport?

Coach Smith' date='

I have helped the wrestling community by posting links to news stories about wrestling or by posting results.

How have you helped The News-Enterprise other than complain (especially when The News-Enterprise's coverage was comparable - or better than - every other daily newspaper in the state)?[/quote']

Posting links to news stories about wrestling or by posting results by you has been great, but talking negatively about our sport is not.

It's funny that the coverage got better after our last little spat and you showed your brother the forum. I have never complained about the journalistic skills of the News Enterprise, My complaint has been the lack of coverage.

But you are right the The News-Enterprise's coverage has reciently been better.

Does it really matter which sport is more difficult to qualify for the state tournament? Why dont you guys pick a friendly neighborhood bar and discuss this over a few beers. It sounds like the ultimate bar argument:

Who was better Ruth or Mays? Would would beat who Marciano or Ali?

I dont think the bragging about getting to state in any sport is as important as being able to brag about what you did when you got to state. I think thats true in any sport.

I dont want to make Mr. Wolverine mad because he has helped with the coverage of our sport and for that I thank you? He deserves honorary membership in the KY Wrestling Club for helping with the coverage of the sport.

I also happen to know that the 119lb State Champ this year was a State Champion Cross Country Runner too! We have quite a few kids from our team that run Cross Country to keep in shape before the season and they can run, but their times arent really that outstanding. I have a lot of respect for top runners in Cross Country, not saying its harder than wrestling but in its own way like all sports it has its technical aspects that some athletes excel at, the same as swimming, track, basketball, etc....

I dont want to make Mr. Smith mad because he provides alot of leadership in the state and has an obvious passion for the sport that is badly needed in KY.

So you guys pick a location and we'll let Pioneer or Grappler pay for the first round, haha!

Does it really matter which sport is more difficult to qualify for the state tournament? Why dont you guys pick a friendly neighborhood bar and discuss this over a few beers. It sounds like the ultimate bar argument:

Who was better Ruth or Mays? Would would beat who Marciano or Ali?

I dont think the bragging about getting to state in any sport is as important as being able to brag about what you did when you got to state. I think thats true in any sport.

I dont want to make Mr. Wolverine mad because he has helped with the coverage of our sport and for that I thank you? He deserves honorary membership in the KY Wrestling Club for helping with the coverage of the sport.

I also happen to know that the 119lb State Champ this year was a State Champion Cross Country Runner too! We have quite a few kids from our team that run Cross Country to keep in shape before the season and they can run' date=' but their times arent really that outstanding. I have a lot of respect for top runners in Cross Country, not saying its harder than wrestling but in its own way like all sports it has its technical aspects that some athletes excel at, the same as swimming, track, basketball, etc....

I dont want to make Mr. Smith mad because he provides alot of leadership in the state and has an obvious passion for the sport that is badly needed in KY.

So you guys pick a location and we'll let Pioneer or Grappler pay for the first round, haha![/quote']

eville dad

Thanks for the kind words, My outbursts are few, but I must respond to negative comments. I will take my prozac and count to 10. LOL

DA BEARS!!!

No, I agree with you eville dad, this is a pointless argument really. When I see people on here arguing about the 32 man bracket, i just think...I enjoy watching wrestling for 3 days....call me crazy, but i really don't care if it "cheapens" being a state qualifier. BUT...I do like the post on here from a first year HWT stating "STATE IS AWESOME". That means a lot more to me than someone's opinion that it's too easy to qualify for state.

Wolverine...sorry I attacked you a bit there..but seriously, it was funny to read that. I appreciate you posting wrestling news on here.

So you guys pick a location and we'll let Pioneer or Grappler pay for the first round' date=' haha![/quote']

Hey!!!! :shock:

How come I gotta pay for the first round? I'll just take my pepsi and sit in the corner.

The arguements can go on forever about which system would work the best. I myself am a product of the old 16 man bracket system. I wrestled in the old lexington region which had something like 7 or 8 state champs my senior year including myself. The benefits from the old system are that (1) it is more challenging to make it to the state tournament, (2) it elimates having wrestlers there that aren't qualified enough to be there, (3) it shortens the tournament and takes away the first day of wrestling. Some kids are making it the state tournament simply because they only have 4 guys in their weight class at regionals. These kids are getting pinned and techfalled in the first round and also getting smashed in the consolation bracket. There are also some flaws of the old system. One of the most important is that some regions thought that their alternates were better than some wrestlers at the tournament. For example in 1999 our 189lb 5th placer at regionals was John Dials from sheldon clark, he got to go to state as an alternate and ended up placing 5th at state that year, he later went on to win state his senior year at 215. our There are also benits as wells as flaws for the new system which have all already been discussed on here. But overall goal as a state needs to be to grow and expand. Wrestling is the hardest sport to get a kid to try out for. Small schools who want to start programs aren't going to if they have no chance of sending kids to compete at the state tournament in the first couple years of the program. More schools are starting programs now that we have the new system, more kids are coming out for wrestling now that they feel that they have a chance to compete at the state level. This years state tournament looked very competitive, there seemed to be a lot of athletic kids there and the talent seems like its getting deeper and deeper each year. As long as wrestling is growing state wide we should all be happy. Its hard to support a dying sport and we need to encourage growth and development and not argue about how hard it is to qualify for the tournament, the best wrestlers will show out at the end.

grappler - something to consider on your point #1, under the old system the region I competed in included: Woodford, South Oldham, Oldham, Harrison, Sheldon Clark, and all of the Lexington schools to name a few. That would leave out some pretty tough 5th place finishers.

Plus, I think the new program argument has a lot of merit. When a new team can work hard and have a chance to send some kids to the big show there is a chance to hit the ground running and build teams more quickly. Example, Newport has a new team in a tough region with a lot of young wrestlers and no state qualifiers. There was lots of excitement about the program early in the season, especially when Boxx won the conference. But too many years without a state qualifier and that will spell trouble. Kids will lose interest and the school might as well.

Well thank God that's over...Jeesh.

I know I'm not as qualified as some posters on this site , but I have a question I'm interested to get anyone's thoughts on: Have many of you been to both a Ky state tourney and say an Ohio? Or Indiana? Or any other states? How do they compare? I followed the link to the Ga tourney...NUTZZZ... We've established that comparing it to other sports is futile, but what about other states? Maybe states that have a stronger tradition (or perhaps more support) don't have the same issues...maybe they do. Anyone?

Ranger;

South Oldham and Oldham Co. were in the Nky region. Region 5 and 6 combined to make a region.

Yes it was the Lexington Region that was making this claim. However when the results were tallied, the Nky region was the one who benifited from this expansion and actually the Wky region also benifited.

Lucky,

I went to Indianas finals last year in Conseco Field House. You have to understand its a lot bigger facility and alot more people attend but ours is very similar only on a smaller scale.

They have a really cool mat they use for the finals, it has a flag as the circle so you have alot of color red, white and blue under the mat light.

They did alot of recognition for their multi X champs. Escobedo was 4X er last year and the announcer went on and on about his career and the crowd gave him at least one standing ovation, they kind of did a slide presentation on the screen for him using pictures from years past etc... and read some prepared script about him. They also did this for a few other kids but on a lesser scale relative to their achievements. They also mentioned the colleges these kids had signed with or were considering.

Other than those two things, the two events are very similar. I think our tournament is awesome and is done very well! The kids love it and it gives lesser experienced wrestlers a chance to experience a great atmoshpere because we do let 32 kids per wt class in the event.

I would just suggest that the tournament stay the way it is but continue to enhance it when good ideas come along. Maybe a professional announcer to add some energy to the finals and a little more recognition of outstanding kids. We had 3 3X champs this year, Starks, Murton, Scherer.

I like the idea of a State Finals Mat -

who has the best mat to be used under the lights for finals?

Do any schools use mat lights for their wrestling events?

Last weekend I spoke to Mr. Tackett of the KHSAA who told me the thing that matters most to me: since we have moved to the 32 man bracket the sport has grown substatially in number. He continued that it had grown in quality as well. He informed me of this when he said that of the 48 wrestlers in the semifinals there was nearly thirty teames represented. His arguments gave me the emperical proof that I needed to see that on the broad scale teams were growing in number and and quality.

Though I realize we must endure such miseries as watching some finals matches in the semi's and a three day state tounament in which the first day isn't always high quality, I believe the pros are more numerous and important. For example, when I was a junior I got fourth in the region (all four of us were ranked wrestlers) and beat a regional champion first round, who, by the way, was ranked behind me. I would not have placed in the state nor made it out of the region that year without the 32-man. More importantly, being in the out skirts of the promised land makes our young wrestlers work harder to get closer. On my former team, a 7th grader won a match at the state tourny and looked at me and said he was going to go to camps and work his butt off to do better at state next year: it made him hungry.

I understand that the current format does cause some incovieniencies, but the state champ is going to be the one who wins them all, the best wrestlers in the state will be on the medal stands (maybe a bit higher or lower that they should be), and most importantly teams are forming and getter hungry to do well in the tournament they couldn't even make it to before.

I agree with you (and Julian Tackett) that the 32 man bracket has increased the numbers...but the quality of wrestlers has improved mainly because of the increase in middle school & youth wrestling going on in the state. You're starting to see 9th graders at state that have been wrestling 4-5 years on a regular basis. 10, 15, 20 years ago, that was not very common at all. The KHSAA has had NOTHING to do with the increase in youth & middle school wrestling in this state.

Still, I like the 32 man bracket and I love the state tournament.

Evilledad:

I aslo agree that having a Ky mat for the finals would be awsome. The only problem, where do we store it? I believe the coaches assossiation has contimplated trying to buy one.

I also beleive that during the announcement of the finalists, they talked about some of the wrestlers. I think I remember them announcing that Richard Starks was a 2 X state champion and 3X state finalist prior to the match.

During the tournament they announced when a returning state champ or runner up was wrestling. You may not have heard it because you were already involved in the match.

Overall I believe that the tourney is ran quite well, and tip my hats to all those individuals involved in making it work.

You know what, you a so right. I didn't even think of the youth and middle school wrestling. I was priviledged to go to the middle school state tounament and help two middle school teams this year and I got to see the future studs of the sport. I think this GREAT for the sport. Thanks for reminding me!

anytime dumptruck! ;-)

a custom mat for the finals would be AWESOME! maybe we can pass around a jar at state next year and take up a collection.

grappler - I seem to recall wrestling South Oldham a couple years at the regional tournament in the '90-'92 period. Anyone know if I have lost my mind or not?

Great point about the 32 man brackets... Seems to me that going to state as a youngster and getting your butt handed to you BUT experiencing the adrenalin of it would make anyone want to work that much harder to be there next year, and the year after that... And besides, isn't three days jammed packed with wrestling pretty awesome anyway?

Here's hoping by the time my son's a 7th or 8th grader with 7 or 8 years of training under his singlet he'll get to experience that for himself! Fingers crossed... :wink:

I guess I will put my two cents worth in on this as well. I personally think a 32 man bracket does cheapen the accomplishment of making it to state but where we (kentucky) are as opposed to other states , maybe this is best at this time. Our middle school state tournament has a 16 man bracket with seeding and I would like to see the high school follow siut, but again, I want what is best overall for our state. The other thing. DUDE,! way too many "in crosscountry and in tennis"..

just an example. in north carolina, we have 4 different regions and 4 wrestlers advance from each to make a 16 man bracket. there are 4 number one seeds, and so on. all number one seeds wrestle a 4 seed and then the winner advances to wrestle the winner of a 2/3 match. with this, the earliest that two regional champs could meet is the semis. but even then they will most likely meet another regional champ in the finals.

grappler - I seem to recall wrestling South Oldham a couple years at the regional tournament in the '90-'92 period. Anyone know if I have lost my mind or not?

No you haven't lost your mind. (At least not on this one)

I did the research, (dug deeeep into the archives) :shock: I found that Oldham and S. Oldham were part of the Lexington district/region until 1997. In 1997 they were moved to the East Jeff. district/Nky region.

Seems kind of funny that they were in the Lex. district since you would have to go through Oldham Co. to get to Lexington on I71.

HCWolverine as a former wrestler please dont ever get on here and talk about how easy it is to get to state nor how much more difficult Cross Country and Tennis are. Until you have went 6 minutes plus just keep your mouth shut about the topic.

The second thing everyone who has a problem with the 32 man bracket get over it. Its going to be like that and no matter how much people want it change the head cheeses at KHSAA wont change it. Its a good idea who cares if you dont deserve to be there the kids that dont deserve to be there are gone by Friday afternoon anyway. If you would go to the old way District, Region, State. I would have not qualified for state my Soph. year because I placed 5th in the "Confrence" aka District but then I came back and won Region. I had an off day I was sick and just had my shoulder MRI'd get over it.

Couger:

1st. Wolverene is intitled to his opinion

2nd. Things do change, why do you think it was changed in the 1st place. It started by many poeple complaining and after several years of people telling them it would not change it did.

3rd. The "Conference" AKA "NKAC" was NOT the district tournament. The district tournament is the same tournament as the Region is now a week earlier (1st weekend in Feb.) The region combined 2 districts on the second weekend in Feb. (Now that would be Regions 5 and 6. The two would make the Nky region)

You would still have made the regional tournament and probably still the state tourney.

4th Basing your belief on what best benifits yourself is not a logical way of deciding things. If this was true then we in the United States would still have Slavery, because it benifited those that owned the slaves.

Remember things do change, this is the American way of getting things done. You discuss a topic, get more people on board and then finally get your resolution passed.

It's pretty narcissistic to think that a person who hasn't gone 6 plus minutes can't offer a valid opinion on what it means to reach the top of their sport. Ask a wrestler, they'll tell you wrestling is the toughest. Ask a runner, they'll say that cross-country is. Ask a curler, they'll say... (Anyone got a clue as to what that's all about???) My point is that we all could give a million examples why the sport we participated in (or support) is the toughest.

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, wrestling has a bad rep. Not so much with the kids, but with the parents. Lets face it, the parents are the ones who decide which sport to sign little Johnny up for: basketball or wrestling, soccer or football. Wrestling isn't promoted very well, and it's image could use an overhaul. Getting on here and having discussions about how to better the sport is a start. I would say that the people who care about wrestling get a lot of ideas from this site, and take them to those "head cheeses" to try to bring about change. Seems to me like chest thumping doesn't change a whole lot for anyone.

I found this interesting: wrestling has moved into the third highest revenue of high school sports in kentucky behind football and basketball. I think this is important for two reasons: (1) This means the sport is getting bigger (2) The 32-man bracket is bringing in more funds, which gives it increased desirability for the KHSAA and the wrestling community. We all know that the more money generated by the sport, the more attention it will be given (I don't mean that as a negative, just as a fact).

Also, I think the image of wresting is being imporved by the increasing amount of little league and middle school wrestling programs. A lot of new parents and kids are getting broken into the sport this way, and it is helping shatter the negative stereotypes.

Well it was not just based on me. How about in 2001 I think Craig Cooper Jeremy Lovell and Matt Reis all in the same region one of those guys may have not mad state and I know for a fact that year they finished 1, 2, 3 in the state. Its not a valid point there is to many holes in it. On top of that a 32 man bracket is just another great way for the KHSAA to bring in money!!

Dumptruck - that is an awesome fact if it's true....where have you seen that wrestling is 3rd most in money? I also think teams hosting their own tournaments if they are ran right are a great way for schools to raise money...compared to other sports.

My former wrestling coach from Johnson Central told me that he recieved that piece of information from Mr. Tackett of the KHSAA. He told me the football was first, basketball was second, wrestling was third, and a close fouth was girl's basketball. I can see this as being the case because of the 3 day state event, the large tournaments every weekend, plus the duals and tris through the week. I have not seen a list of amounts grossed by each sport, nor do I know where such a list is found, but I will take Julian's word on it

Well it was not just based on me. How about in 2001 I think Craig Cooper Jeremy Lovell and Matt Reis all in the same region one of those guys may have not mad state and I know for a fact that year they finished 1' date=' 2, 3 in the state. Its not a valid point there is to many holes in it. On top of that a 32 man bracket is just another great way for the KHSAA to bring in money!![/quote']

Couger I understand your point, but there is very little validity in the arguement. Those three individuals would still have made the state tourney and placed the same.

When Region 5 and 6 combined region 5 still took about 75% of their wrestlers to the state tourney. The second tournament before state is actually the 1st round of the state tourney. I agree that there are times when someone may not make it because of this, but it still happens (Clint Hovekamp of Ryle this year at 160).

I do agree that the 32 man bracket has been a possitive to this point, but there will be a point when it will no longer be needed. I don't think we are there yet, because schools are still adding wrestling, maybe because they can compete.

I agree with Mat-Mopper when he stated that Ky will know they have reached the upper tier when they can go back to the 16 man bracket. I know of some wrestlers in Ohio that were able to wrestle in collage with a scholarship and never made the state tourney. This is what Ky needs to shoot for.

I think we are headed in the right direction, and the more we talk about it the better we get.

Cougarwrestler,

1) I NEVER said wrestling was an easy sport physically. I have admitted that over and over. In fact, I said it was very tough.

2) What I did say is that STATISTICALLY (again, not physically) it is easier to qualify for State in wrestling than any other KHSAA sport (other than football, that is; and even in football, the first three rounds are against region competition. Only 16 teams overall out of the 200+ teams make it to the state semifinals). In terms of numbers, you can't argue that. It's indisputable. I wish you the best of luck if you want to try to prove otherwise.

3) Don't think it won't change. How many changes has state gone through in the last 20 years? That's been posted on this thead before. Most - if not all - sports have gone through some postseason change in the last five years or so. The KHSAA invokes more change than you think. People also use to think that volleyball was just a private school thing or that LexCath would never get busted for anything bad or that they would never pust Scott County and LexCath in the same region because they are so dominant. All of those things happened to change recently.

If wrestling continues to grow, something will have to change. Either by going to 16 regions instead of eight, bringing back the district-region-state scenario or creating classes. If you think it will never change, you are incredibly naive.

4) People have different views about what State is. IMO, state should be for the top talent and only for the top talent. It should be a great honor to make it to state, not a yearly ritual for more than 35 percent of all competitors. It should be tough to accomplish, not expected. If everyone (or most everyone) gets to experience something, that event loses its uniqueness, whether you want to admit it or not.

5) Just because someone hasn't done something doesn't mean they are completely ignorant on the topic or can't voice their opinion. Most of us know jack squat about how government really works, but we still get to vote about who should get to be in the government and run our towns, our state and even our country. Better than 90 percent of all people that attend UK basketball games have never played Division I ball, but they still go to games, listen to it on radio, watch it on TV, comment on it by writing to newspapers or message boards or calling in the radio. All of those people matter. I'm sure UK would agree. If not, how come you rarely - if ever - see a player, coach, school or team ever say "Who cares about our fans? They haven't been in our shoes so they don't know diddly squat and their opinions don't matter at all!" If they did that, they would alienate their fans - their most important allies - incredibly fast. Without fans (whether they know what they're tallking about or not), it is hard to make money (which wrestling is starting to do in this state more and more). Without fans (again, they may know a lot about wrestling or they may know hardly anything), it would be hard for wrestling to grow.

2) What I did say is that STATISTICALLY (again' date=' not physically) it is easier to qualify for State in wrestling than any other KHSAA sport (other than football, that is; and even in football, the first three rounds are against region competition. Only 16 teams overall out of the 200+ teams make it to the state semifinals). In terms of numbers, you can't argue that. It's indisputable. I wish you the best of luck if you want to try to prove otherwise.[/quote']

Football is indisputable, i'll give you that...you haven't proven anything about other sports. You'd have to look at the % of participants that qualify for state in wrestling compared to golf, cc, tennis, etc. you may be surprised....i'm not sure, but i'd guess there isn't THAT many participants in tennis as there is in wrestling....therefore the % of participants that qualify for state may be higher in those sports...not sure...i know there were a couple of geeks in my h.s. that qualified for state in tennis back in the 80's....i think our tennis team might have had 5 people on it. It was by far the easiest sport to letter in.....there just wasn't a lot of participation.

Anyhow, a lot of people share your point of view that it's too easy to go down state....that's such a petty point really. The state tournament is freaking awesome. It's as if you're looking for something to gripe about. If you don't like the 32 man bracket, show up on Friday and pretend Thursday didn't happen.

pioneer_pride,

High school tennis - just like high school wrestling - has evolved a lot in the last 15 years. My region (the 5th) had 32-man brackets (with no more than four byes in the first round). Most regions were completely filled at the 32-man bracket and had to go to the 64-man bracket (although there were a TON of byes in those instances). The smallest division in our region had 28 players/doubles teams. Only four went to state (14.28 percent).

Compare that to wrestling: According to the KHSAA, Region 1 (13 schools) was the largest in any region. 4 out of 13 qualify (30.76 percent). That's the minimum percentage chance any wrestler in any region in any weight class has of going to state. A couple of weight classes in my region only had six kids. 4/6 = 66.7 percent chance of going to state (in a double-elimination event). Of course, the KHSAA lists schools in my region that don't either have wrestling teams or don't bother even sending one kid to regionals (Campbellsville and McLean County "supposedly" have wrestling teams. Only on paper). According to the KHSAA, there are 81 wrestling programs (of which, 71 schools or 87.6 percent qualified had least one kid for state; I doubt there is ANY sport that has that type of representation at State. Track could be). If all 81 programs fill each weight class at the region tournament, that means there are a maximum of 1,134 kids eligible to get to state. 448 kids compete at state, meaning that, at a minimum average, each wrestler competing at the regional meet has a 39.5 percent chance to get to state. Half of the regions (2, 4, 5 and 6) had eight teams or less, meaning each kid has a 50 percent (or better) chance of going to state). Those are great odds for something that some people insist on debating is hard to get in.

Boys' basketball, girls' basketball, volleyball, baseball and softball only have 16 teams go to state (must make it through two separate tournaments to get there with only opportunity to lose in district finals). In each of those sports, there are more than 200 participating schools, meaning only 8 percent (at best) go to State. Soccer has at least 128 teams and only 16 make it to state (12.5 percent). Softball is the only sport of those six that allows you to lose once you get to state.

15 kids (2 teams of five players each plus top five individuals not on those teams) from each region make it to state in golf. All golf regions had more than 50 competitors (15/50 = 30 percent maximum chance of going to state).

Just less than 40 percent (39.68) of all cross country teams made it to the state meet in Class 3-A in 2005 and were eligible for the state team title. Some other schools qualified 1, 2 or 3 individuals but were NOT eligible for the state team title.

Only 26 kids (24 qualifiers and two alternates for illnesses, injuries, disqualifications) make it to State in each swimming event. Only two from each of the 5 regions are guaranteed spots. 14 other berths are given out after the fastest remaining times from all five regions are compiled. Not included in this is diving, which is smaller than wrestling in terms of how many schools offer it.

The top two finishers in each region in track advance to state (plus the next four fastest times/distances in the state plus anybody else who meets the qualifying standard i.e. achieving a time/distance seen at the previous year's state meet).

Keep in mind that in tennis, swimming, golf and cross country, not only are you competing against other teams, you can get beat out from ONE OF YOUR OWN TEAMMATES for one of the last spots at state.

As far as lettering in tennis, that's an entirely separate issue. Each school sets its own lettering requirements (some schools allow you to "letter" in dance team, mat maids, marching band, rifle team, academic team, etc. I know some schools in my area that all you have to do is appear in the postseason, meaning someone who plays two seconds in a 40-point basketball or football blowout letters).

As far as showing up on Friday, good call, except NO ONE is eliminated the first day at state wrestling (just sent down to the consolation bracket).

Wolverine,

I dont know much about Tennis and I'm sure its just as competitive between its participants as any other sport. Im sure its quite an accomplishment to qualify for state. But for the sake of discussion doesnt each team have a #1 player a #2 player and so on. Do they all compete at your the qualifying event for Tennis or is it just the #1 players for each team?

DARN YOU EVILLE DAD!! You truly are evil! I was just trying to find that out.....i think you are right, each team can enter 2 guys...imagine if that was the case in Wrestling.....the MAXIMUM easiness in this state (based on (2268 participants) and 448 kids making it to state would be 19.75%...pretty close to the TOUGHEST SPORT TO QUALIFY FOR STATE IN - TENNIS!!!

Wolverine, you really must be an argumentative guy to be on THIS SITE....a discussion board about Kentuckywrestling, talking about how easy it is to go down state in wrestling.

eville dad,

To field a full tennis team, you must have seven players (three for singles and four to make up two doubles teams). At the regional tournament, each school is allowed two entries in each of the four divisions (boys' singles, boys' doubles, girls' singles and four doubles). As far as the four entries to state, that's total (could be four different schools or just two if both players from School A and both players from School B advance to the semifinals).

All of the other individual sports (swimming, cross country, golf and track and field) allow multiple kids from schools to advance to state (2 each per event in swimming, tennis and track, up to five in golf and up to 7 or 9 in cross country).

Maybe this is a route to be looked at. Keep the 32 man bracket if you wish, but allow each school the opportunity to put two wrestlers in each weight class insted of one. Place them on opposite sides so they can't meet until the finals (would allow for a pair of twins to wrestle for the region title if they wanted to stay in the same weight class. That would be neat to see). Of course, I don't know how many states - if any at all - allow a setup like that.

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pioneer_pride,

I never said it was tennis was the toughest sport to qualify for state in. That honor would go to boys' basketball (since like 280+ schools have it and only 16 go to State). But in terms of who advances on to state, yes tennis is tougher than wrestling.

I'm not being argumentative because I hate wrestling. I don't. I went two state tournaments in the past four years and had a blast both times I went. The setup for the finals (with the lighting, blaring music and slides/powerpoint above the media people) kicks the crap out of anything ever done for tennis or cross country (plus tennis is done in the blazing heat with no shade at UK, water fountains that don't work and drink machines/concessions stands that are sold out shortly after lunch and you have to park about a mile away and play Frogger across a major roadway). To tell you the truth, state cross country sucks too. You've got to pay 8 bucks to park in the mud, soggy grass or hay. There is limited to no shelter from the cold, wind or rain. Only bathrooms are port-a-pots. Almost impossible to leave and go eat (food prices are like that of a ballpark and you would have to pay the $8 to re-park).

Wrestling has a lot of things going for it. It's growing. It's making money. It's fun to watch (for those who take the time to watch it). Colleges in our state are starting to pick up on it. Girls (well, at least one anyway) are making history through it.

With that said, even good things need to be tweaked once in a while. The NCAA's men's basketball tournament is probably the most televised and most popular tournament in the world, but even it has been tweaked in the last few years (added the unpopular play-in game for champions of the two sorriest conferences, made sure the top four seeds play closer to home to increase fan support, stopped with the consistent East Champ meets West Champ scenario by reseeding the semifinals).

Just because something is good doesn't mean it can't be better. And although the state wrestling tournament is very good in the way it is set up and run (although it can make for some very long days), wrestlers (you) and non-wrestlers (me) can probably agree that some changes (but not widespread changes or a sweeping overhaul or anything like that) might be good for the tournament, too.

And isn't that what we should be striving for is to make each tournament in every sport in this state the best it can be? You don't have to look very far (boys' basketball tournament at Rupp Arena) to see how REALLY SPECIAL a state tournament can be. If some fools get basketball to go to classes instead of just one state champ, Kentucky will lose one of the best high school tournaments in any sport in any state.

Wolverine - I sort of like the idea of allowing multiple entries from a team at each weight. BUT, that would not encourage many new teams to get started and would only help the bigger/deeper teams. I'm not 100% sure, but I think there are a couple of other states that do that currently.

Overall, I agree that it is too easy to advance to the state tournament. But we really need to be in a growth mode right now and it seems to be working. Eventually, we will get to a point where we need to go back to the district/region alignment due to numbers (I don't think classes will happen) and this will give the KHSAA a much neeed opportunity to realign some teams. Right now the state tournament is working well for our sport and we're headed in the right direction. I say our finals is the greatest sporting event in the world, bar none. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't continue to be improved to be sure it stays the best.

Ranger:

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Allowing more than one entry in a wt. class would probably kill some of the smaller schools. In Nky we can just look at the middle school regionals. In Nky Gray sent 2 kids in a several wt. classes. I have heard many parents complain that it was unfair to other schools.

This would also negate what the 32 man bracket was made for. In Nky Campbell and Ryle would proabably send a couple in a few wt. classes, therefore taking spots away from some of the smaller teams.

As I have said in past posts. I look forward to the time when we can return to the 16 man bracket. This would mean that wrestling has expanded and the wrestling has improved enough to where we no longer need to be desperate for participation. The whole idea was to make it easier to qualify for the state tourney, that would spark interest in schools and individuals to participate in our sport.

pioneer_pride' date='

I never said it was tennis was the toughest sport to qualify for state in. That honor would go to boys' basketball (since like 280+ schools have it and only 16 go to State). But in terms of who advances on to state, yes tennis is tougher than wrestling.

[/quote']

It's only harder statistically speaking because 2 kids per school can go...narrow them down to 1 per school, it might not be harder...and no you don't have to run and do the math....IF it's statistically harder, it's only by a small margin. You also have to consider that because of title IX and the crappy way it has been implemented (i.e. instead of adding girls sports, they drop low revenue boys sports - WRESTLING)...there will always be more schools that have a tennis program...since girls and boys can play tennis. Even though there are girls now competing in wrestling, it's not wide spread enough for schools to have a girls wrestling team.

Ok, you might not like him or his lectures...but don't criticize him unless you take the time to actually read his posts. He said..."I went to two state tournaments in the last four years." Regardless, you're missing his point. It's not about which spprt is physically the toughest, or which sport is better. Who gives a flying ______. He has simply caused a bunch of people who love this particular sport to analyze the way in which (or the ease of which depending on your opinion) athletes reach what is supposed to be pinnacle of their sport. I would add that he has done so quite successfully.

Ok' date=' you might not like him or his lectures...but don't criticize him unless you take the time to actually read his posts. He said..."I went to two state tournaments in the last four years." [/quote']

This is my opinion, But I don't think he has. And I have read everything he has written, that is why I believe he don't get out much.

eville dad' date='

To field a full tennis team, you must have seven players (three for singles and four to make up two doubles teams). At the regional tournament, each school is allowed two entries in each of the four divisions (boys' singles, boys' doubles, girls' singles and four doubles). As far as the four entries to state, that's total (could be four different schools or just two if both players from School A and both players from School B advance to the semifinals).

All of the other individual sports (swimming, cross country, golf and track and field) allow multiple kids from schools to advance to state (2 each per event in swimming, tennis and track, up to five in golf and up to 7 or 9 in cross country).

Maybe this is a route to be looked at. Keep the 32 man bracket if you wish, but allow each school the opportunity to put two wrestlers in each weight class insted of one. Place them on opposite sides so they can't meet until the finals (would allow for a pair of twins to wrestle for the region title if they wanted to stay in the same weight class. That would be neat to see). Of course, I don't know how many states - if any at all - allow a setup like that.

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[/quote']

Wolverine,

I would prefer to discuss this rather than to argue about it. So please dont take this post as argumentative. I truly appreciate your support of our sport and your insight towards ideas for improvement. But in defense of Wrestling relative to the comparison youve made in the difficulty in qualifying for state tournaments between Tennis and Wrestling, I have a few comments. I think the fact that tennis allows two participants per team distorts the numbers and the % of kids advancing to state. Of course if Tennis allowed one participant per team then the percentage of state qualifiers would be much higher. The fact that wrestling allows only one wrestler to compete results in some very capable JV wrestlers not even getting an attempt to qualify. So really when you compare the number of kids qualifying for any sport you need to factor it not to the number of kids participating in the qualifying tournament but the total number of kids participating in the sport for the teams with in the district or region. Personally dont consider it a big deal how hard it is to qualify for state in any sport. I think the level of accomplishment shouldnt be based on if a kid qualifies for one tournament or another but on his or her personal success over the course of a season or in the case of team sports what they have done to help their team. In some ways I think the qualifying for state issue is more about bragging than anything.

What makes wrestling so great!

A sport like wrestling has its own unique aspects that is equaled by few other sports. I'm referring to physical attributes that are measured by the outcome of a wrestling match: strength, speed, stamina, ability to think and react under extreme physical stress, mental toughness, committment, discipline, diet. These are all tested while competing in an arena that anyone can compete in, not just the kids who have are superior at a unique skill like being able to precisely swing a racket or shoot a ball or hit a baseball, those unique skills seperate them from their peers from the start. But we all share from birth (if blessed with good health) the ability to wrestle with one another for physical dominance, this is a competitive instinct we all have naturally imbedded in ourselves. So when a wrestler steps on the mat he is putting his most natural and basic competitive ability that we all start out with to test, never is an athlete so exposed to mediocrity or greatness!

Its a little deep I know but I think that is one of the things that really makes wrestling such a great sport and that can only be realized through participation! Until you have put it all on the line by stepping on the mat, you just cant understand it. We are all passionate about the sports we love, thats a good thing and thats my take on wrestling. Dont get me started on baseball or softball haha, (build it and they will come), I love those sports too!

Hope that helps and thanks for all the great media information coming our way!

I agree with AAW...and I disagree with you lucky1....this guy doesn't have a point other than it's too easy (in his opinion) to qualify for the state tournament in wrestling. fair enough, that's his opinion. i disagree, and so do a lot of people. also, to throw out the physical part of wrestling, and just say "statistically speaking" is...well, the nicest way i can say it is not smart. for starters, you're comparing apples to oranges when you compare tennis which a team can enter 2 kids per event, to wrestling where a team can only enter 1 kid. that right there should stop the discussion of which sport is statistically harder. but knowing that he's wrong about his beloved tennis & cc....he brings up bball. if he had 1 other point other than "wrestling is too easy to go down state, cut it down to a 16 man bracket"...it would be worthwhile discussing it.

well said eville dad.

One last thought on the statistical side ...

Look at it from the individual side. When a football or basketball team makes it, you're taking multiple kids. Some of which are not the best players. I'm sure Trinity and St. X carry some dead weight with them every year. So yes, some of the first round of the wrestling tournament is not real competitive, but that's just because each and every kid is exposed in wrestling (as Eville has stated). You can't hide behind your teammates.

Pioneer_pride...It's not about whether you agree with another poster or not and IMHO most of you have valid points... He has done a great job of sparking an extremely interesting discussion about wrestling. I'm not saying he's right or he's wrong, I think that's a moot point. I'm saying I thoroughly enjoyed the thread and from the looks of it, so have a lot of other wrestling fans. It's a good day for wrestling...

Ranger123 and grappler-of-old,

I don't think by allowing more than one kid per school to compete per weight at region would be all that hurtful. If you double the amount of kids at region, wouldn't that improve the overall talent of the region's state qualifiers (because you made it a little more difficult). You could still keep the 32-man state bracket, and I would bet the overall talent would be better (possibly by a lot, possibly not by much at all). It has't hurt golf, tennis, swimming and track (all four sports have WAY, WAY more schools involved than wrestling does) to have multiple entires per school. You could mention something about how cross country and track kids are classed, but at the same time, golf and swimming are not. So I don't think that's the reason, either.

As far as other schools dropping or not adding, I don't see it that way. There are some schools that have NEVER been to the state tournament in a lot of sports and yet they still compete and still field teams EVERY YEAR. In fact, small schools (Bishop Brossart, Jackson County) are adding football, although it MAY BE YEARS before they even make it to the regional playoffs based on how tough the districts are that they will be put in.

IMO, if you drop a sport or fail to pick up a sport simply because "it ain't as easy to get to State as it used to be", then you were in the sport for the wrong reason to begin with.

There's got to be some other reasons for schools to drop/not add wrestling in this instance.

As far as football, yes each football team has plenty of kids on it. But schools are NOT allowed to field multiple varsity football teams each year. Each school may have some dead weight, but that dead weight isn't going to compete unless that school is up by a lot or getting crushed. Wrestling allows for a variance of the same thing when kids that don't qualify for state still get to attend on Friday. In that instance, you're getting an excused absence from school because of what your teammates (what you brought up with football) did and NOT for what you did (other than you happen to be on the team).

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pioneer_pride,

1) "It's only harder statistically speaking because 2 kids per school can go." - Wrong. You forget that wrestling is A LOT smaller than tennis. The smallest tennis regions have 13 kids each. You could drop it to 1 kid per school and that's still EXACTLY what the region 1 kids went through this year. In this instance, the BEST odds in tennis are equal to the WORST odds in wrestling. You could drop it to one kid per school for every region and the chances of going to state would still be less than wrestling. Your argument would be better served for cross country, but not tennis.

2) "but that's not what you're trying to suggest...you're whole point on here is that it's too easy to go down state in wrestling and they should make it harder....that doesn't do anything to improve the state tournament or the sport. What you're doing really is insulting kids who barely squeaked in the state tournament or barely missed it.... - Couple of things here. You think the state tournament is actually BETTER because it allows for some bad kids from Podunk to go 0-2 and get mauled in both matches? Wouldn't increasing the OVERALL AVERAGE TALENT at the state tournament IMPROVE it, not hurt it? I really don't think the NCAA tournament in men's basketball would be a whole heck of a lot better because you included the runner-up from tiny, non-competitive Northeast Athletic Conference. In that case, your intention becomes to including players based on LOCATION first, not TALENT (which is why in basketball, the King of the Bluegrass or the girls' tournament at LexCath has more talent than the state tournament does because organizers really don't care if Tiny Tim from Podunk is there ... unless Tiny Tim is a heck of a player). As far as insulting the ones who squeaked in or barely missed, I don't see it that way at all. The kids would have full opportunity to know what exectly they have to do to make it to State. This wouldn't be a sudden, pull the rug-out-from-under-your surprise. This happens in ALL sports (barely missing out on state, that is). Of course, I don't think the boys' and girls' basketball tournament in this state are perfect because they feel they MUST make sure all of the weak regions are included. Some regions (no matter who is representing them) haven't won a first-round game in seven years. Look at a soccer, football, volleyball, baseball or softball team that lost in the region finals and came one win away from going to State. Or even a swimmer who missed qualifying by 0.19 seconds or a golfer that missed qualifying by just one missed putt or a track kid whose jump was just six inches too short or a cross country kid who was just a step or too slow after running up and down hills in the could for more than 15 minutes? Are we "insulting" all of them SOLELY because they weren't good enough to go to state? No, but you have to draw a line somewhere and no matter who you disappoint. There will always be disappointed athletes. It's how you bounce back from those disappointments that shows what type of athlete and how talented an athlete you REALLY are.

As far as your Title IX argument, that doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of sense if wrestling is starting to make as much money as some people claim it does (third in revenue behind boys' basketball and football). But in hindsight (and I could be wrong here, and if I am, someone please correct me), I think Julian Tackett was referring to revenue brought in from JUST the state tournament and NOT the whole season. Of course, when wrestling had the 16-man bracket, state wasn't turning much of a profit (if one at all). Imagine how much money state would make if it expanded to a 64-man bracket!

-----

All_About_Wrestling,

1) "as for talking down our state tournament saying it could be better. Have you ever been to one?" - Two things here. First, I take it you DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER reading some of my posts in which I said I had been to two of the last four state wrestling tournaments (and yet you feel the need to slam me for my posts somehow, how hypocritical is that?). For a nonwrestler, I think that should be considered pretty good, considering a lot of us probably know tons of people who have NEVER watched the state tournament. Second, look at some of your wrestling cohorts. They are making suggestions about improving the State experience (get a specialty mat for the finals, make it a full week instead of three days, get a professional announcer, have the announcer build up repeat champs or finalists like they do in Indiana or Ohio, other wrestling folks will be glad to get back to the 16-man bracket because then it will mean wrestling has improved as a whole in this state).

I'm not "talking down" State, per se. Do I need to start copying-and-paste all the times where I have admitted that state is very good, but could be better? As far as in terms of how easy it is to get to state, that's not "talking down"... that's a fact (not opinion) using sheer statistics. And like I said earlier, good luck arguing otherwise. But football is still easier (although football is about to become even more easier).

Even the guy who some people feel did the best rankings said it is too easy to get to state. That should tell you something.

By the way, I'm not the only making suggestions here. But if you feel the need to railroad me ONLY because I'm not a wrestler, then go ahead and have your field day, hoss.

"I say our finals is the greatest sporting event in the world, bar none. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't continue to be improved to be sure it stays the best." - That DIDN'T come from me. It came from a wrestling person who is very respected on this site.

wolverine...you just proved how little you know about wrestling by acting like title ix does not make much sense here. title ix has hurt wrestling on a school by school basis. schools are dropping programs because of title ix. that is why there is only 81 schools with wrestling compared to tennis. tennis hasn't been hurt as much because it's a girl/boy sport. for example, boone county h.s. dropped their program a few years ago because they were not title ix compliant. they didn't ADD opportunities for girls, they took away opportunities for boys. that's the problem with title ix. so what you end up with is twice as many schools with tennis and cross country for all the sissies.

as far as my argument that if we added 2 kids per team...blah..blah..blah...you did not read my post or you have selective reading. i said it would at least make it close as far as difficulty of making it to state.

and last but not least, no i don't think you improve the tournament itself by narrowing the field down. what improves the tournament would be things like a kentucky mat.....perhaps nicer medals or something. the state tournament is prestigious because it is a state tournament...period. placing in it is what is the goal. bragging rights on saying "i am a state qualifier" are very, very minor, and not many people are worried about that. what you are suggesting to improve the state tournament is so minute, it's not worth mentioning...especially on a kentuckywrestling board when you risk offending your audience by sayint how easy it is to go down state in wrestling. i think running up and down hills "in the blistering sun" sounds VERY easy compared to facing Richard Starks on the mat.

All_About_Wrestling' date='

1) "as for talking down our state tournament saying it could be better. Have you ever been to one?" - Two things here. First, I take it you DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER reading some of my posts in which I said I had been to two of the last four state wrestling tournaments (and yet you feel the need to slam me for my posts somehow, how hypocritical is that?). For a nonwrestler, I think that should be considered pretty good, considering a lot of us probably know tons of people who have NEVER watched the state tournament. Second, look at some of your wrestling cohorts. They are making suggestions about improving the State experience (get a specialty mat for the finals, make it a full week instead of three days, get a professional announcer, have the announcer build up repeat champs or finalists like they do in Indiana or Ohio, other wrestling folks will be glad to get back to the 16-man bracket because then it will mean wrestling has improved as a whole in this state).

I'm not "talking down" State, per se. Do I need to start copying-and-paste all the times where I have admitted that state is very good, but could be better? As far as in terms of how easy it is to get to state, that's not "talking down"... that's a fact (not opinion) using sheer statistics. And like I said earlier, good luck arguing otherwise. But football is still easier (although football is about to become even more easier).

Even the guy who some people feel did the best rankings said it is too easy to get to state. That should tell you something.

By the way, I'm not the only making suggestions here. But if you feel the need to railroad me ONLY because I'm not a wrestler, then go ahead and have your field day, hoss.

"I say our finals is the greatest sporting event in the world, bar none. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't continue to be improved to be sure it stays the best." - That DIDN'T come from me. It came from a wrestling person who is very respected on this site.[/quote']

Your statistics are boring, in fact you are boring. Isn't it time to move on to another site and bore them.

Your statistics are boring' date=' in fact you are boring. Isn't it time to move on to another site and bore them.[/quote']

Nothing good to say so I won't say it.

Ranger123 and grappler-of-old' date='

I don't think by allowing more than one kid per school to compete per weight at region would be all that hurtful. If you double the amount of kids at region, wouldn't that improve the overall talent of the region's state qualifiers (because you made it a little more difficult). You could still keep the 32-man state bracket, and I would bet the overall talent would be better (possibly by a lot, possibly not by much at all). It has't hurt golf, tennis, swimming and track (all four sports have WAY, WAY more schools involved than wrestling does) to have multiple entires per school. You could mention something about how cross country and track kids are classed, but at the same time, golf and swimming are not. So I don't think that's the reason, either.

As far as other schools dropping or not adding, I don't see it that way. There are some schools that have NEVER been to the state tournament in a lot of sports and yet they still compete and still field teams EVERY YEAR. In fact, small schools (Bishop Brossart, Jackson County) are adding football, although it MAY BE YEARS before they even make it to the regional playoffs based on how tough the districts are that they will be put in.

IMO, if you drop a sport or fail to pick up a sport simply because "it ain't as easy to get to State as it used to be", then you were in the sport for the wrong reason to begin with.

There's got to be some other reasons for schools to drop/not add wrestling in this instance.[/quote']

What I was pointing out is that the tourney was opened so that more kids could make it and schools would support the programs. Wrestling is the unwanted step-child in many schools, most of which are trying to find ways to get rid of it. ie: Boone Co., Lloyd, Newport Catholic, Holy Cross all in the last 25 to 30 years dropped their program

When you can show success then the school is reluctant to drop the team.

Please don't get me started on Title IX

no seriously, what are your thoughts on title ix? ;-)

oh btw - i should also say, i'm not a cross country hater per se...i think it's a good secondary sport to wrestling. tennis on the other hand, i got no use for it.

All these adults on here that hate Title IX, I'm just curious how many of them have or had daughters in high school or college sports? I won state in a high school relayin track and graduated from North Hardin in 1980. Back then Basketball and Track were all that was offered for females. Now North Hardin has softball, soccer, and volleyball. I know you all have strong opionions about TItle IX, but I for one am grateful. Now before anyone slams me, I know wrestling is the hardest. My brothers, son and husband did football, wrestling and baseball in high school and none will dispute the fact that wrestling was the toughest. My daughter had the opportunity to play soccer and softball all through high school, and i'm convinced the ROTC scholarship she received for college was not only based on her grades, but her outstanding achievements such as all area in both sports. But I will say that my favorite sport to watch is wrestling and if North Hardin decided to close down wrestling because of title IX, I'd join you in hating Title IX, and then slit my wrists... ha!

pioneer_pride,

Since you asked...

I think when Title IX was invoked, it was a good idea and got a lot of things done. I don't female athletes would have had has many opportunities as they do now without Title IX.

However ...

Title IX goes way, way too far in some instances

- At one Lexington high school (Henry Clay??) the boosters of the baseball team did a ton of fundraising, did a lot of volunteer work and got new dugouts and lights, which were both needed. But because the softball people didn't get off their butts and do something too, the baseball team couldn't play a night game until the softball team had "equal facilities" and had lights, too. I think if you raise the money yourself, you should be able to spend it to help your school if you want to.

- Schools getting fined because their girls' basketball teams don't play enough "primetime game" on Fridays or Saturdays or played the second game of a doubleheader. Ask most of the girls (and their coaches) and they don't care what time they play. Also, many ballplayers that I have talked to in my area said it is embarrassing to have the gym fairly full when their game starts (just after the boys' game ends and is still clearing out) and then have it halfway empty when you come out of the locker room at halftime.

- Title IX has kept some schools from adding wrestling (a male sport) because there's not really a female equivalent. Field hockey (mostly played in Louisville) or making cheerleading a "sport" instead of a "sporting activity" or adding gymnastics (although all of that equipment is expensive, some states offer it as a winter sport) could cancel that out, though.

- Title IX might keep powerlifting (another male sport) from becoming a sport, even though more than 70 schools (which is way above the 15 percent rule the KHSAA requires to offer an official KHSAA state championship) will attend the state meet next month at Central Hardin. And some schools are forming lacrosse teams in the spring (since the football field isn't being used other than for track meets). Both sports would be great additions to the KHSAA lineup, but both look doubtful.

- Because of Title IX, bowling (both genders can compete and its relatively cheap because several area schools can compete at one central location as long as enough lanes are reserved) might be considered as a sport in some schools before wrestling (which is becoming more popular and profitable like football or basketball; I doubt bowling would make money, if any at all).

Some rule needs to be active to make sure female athletes get a fair chance. At the same point, some parts of Title IX might be in need of some editing/modification/clarification, etc.

All_About_Wrestling,

1) Maybe the statistics are "boring" because you have a hard time admitting the truth. That's OK as long as you can live with yourself.

2) If I am so boring, how come you keep:

A) Reading what a boring person writes, and

Responding to what a "boring" person writes?

Maybe someone needs to check who is really the boring one in this instance?

For the people getting tired of me on this topic, I will shut up about it on the following conditions:

1) You can come up with a list of valid, viable reasons (I would settle for 2, but the more the merrier) of why the 32-man bracket cannot be changed in any way, shape or form.

2) In your reasons, you must state why it is difficult to make it to state since some of you are getting tired of me yapping about why it is not. Again, this is not a physical argument comparing it to cross country (if that was the case, I don't see how you can compare 6 minutes of wrestling to 26.2 miles of marathon running or to those freaks who compete in the ironman triathlon). This is talking about the TOURNAMENT ITSELF AND ITS QUALIFICATION PROCESS/SETUP and not how great a sport wrestling is or how difficult it is or how hard the kids try. In HALF of the regions in this state, a wrestler only had to win ONE (1) match in region to advance to state if he received a first-round bye. And you can't say, "Well, tennis is tougher because each school allows two kids". Even if tennis allowed only one kid per school, it would still be tougher because of the sheer number of schools that offer tennis.

So, to put it simply: Why is qualifying for State more difficult than I think it is?

3) In your reasons, you cannot use "It helps for the growth for the sport" because if the size of the tournament was really that much of a factor in helping the sport grow, then wouldn't it make sense to have a 64-man bracket (allowing more kids to make it to state which means more fans and more money from parking, concessions, clothing/program/memorabilia sales) or even a 128-man bracket (because then, new wrestling programs could send their entire team to state: What an incentive for adding wrestling that would be)?

4) In your reasons, you cannot talk about how it would disappoint kids or would be insulting to kid to change the setup. These kids are supposed to be competing in one of the toughest sports (certainly tougher than cross country or tennis as many of you claim). Are you telling me that "tough" wrestling kids can't handle disappointment, but yet tennis players, cross country runners, girls' softball players or volleyball players or swimmers who miss qualifying by less than 0.1 seconds can handle disappointment better than wrestlers can? Surely that can't possibly be true. Disappointment happens in all sports (even that prissy ice dancing or curling), but it is NOT a reason not to change the state tournament.

Take as much time as you need.

In the meantime, I'll continue posting links to wrestling stories like I did before I ever jumped in this argument.

HCWolverines06

Your past boring' date=' now your just annoying!!! Its time to ask the moderator to remove you from this site. bye-bye.[/quote']

AAW, your posts in this thread have been, for the most part, very immature and directed more at the person than his argument. When you start throwing personal attacks (attacking the person rather than attacking their argument), you are in essence giving up.

pioneer_pride' date='

Since you asked...

I think when Title IX was invoked, it was a good idea and got a lot of things done. I don't female athletes would have had has many opportunities as they do now without Title IX.

However ...

Title IX goes way, way too far in some instances

- At one Lexington high school (Henry Clay??) the boosters of the baseball team did a ton of fundraising, did a lot of volunteer work and got new dugouts and lights, which were both needed. But because the softball people didn't get off their butts and do something too, the baseball team couldn't play a night game until the softball team had "equal facilities" and had lights, too. I think if you raise the money yourself, you should be able to spend it to help your school if you want to.

- Schools getting fined because their girls' basketball teams don't play enough "primetime game" on Fridays or Saturdays or played the second game of a doubleheader. Ask most of the girls (and their coaches) and they don't care what time they play. Also, many ballplayers that I have talked to in my area said it is embarrassing to have the gym fairly full when their game starts (just after the boys' game ends and is still clearing out) and then have it halfway empty when you come out of the locker room at halftime.

- Title IX has kept some schools from adding wrestling (a male sport) because there's not really a female equivalent. Field hockey (mostly played in Louisville) or making cheerleading a "sport" instead of a "sporting activity" or adding gymnastics (although all of that equipment is expensive, some states offer it as a winter sport) could cancel that out, though.

- Title IX might keep powerlifting (another male sport) from becoming a sport, even though more than 70 schools (which is way above the 15 percent rule the KHSAA requires to offer an official KHSAA state championship) will attend the state meet next month at Central Hardin. And some schools are forming lacrosse teams in the spring (since the football field isn't being used other than for track meets). Both sports would be great additions to the KHSAA lineup, but both look doubtful.

- Because of Title IX, bowling (both genders can compete and its relatively cheap because several area schools can compete at one central location as long as enough lanes are reserved) might be considered as a sport in some schools before wrestling (which is becoming more popular and profitable like football or basketball; I doubt bowling would make money, if any at all).

Some rule needs to be active to make sure female athletes get a fair chance. At the same point, some parts of Title IX might be in need of some editing/modification/clarification, etc.[/quote']

Yes, I agree with you on the above.

Teresa Baker...I don't have a h.s. aged daughter...but i have a daughter, and yes, I want her to have opportunities when she's in h.s. I think Title IX the way it was originally written and intended to work was great - it was supposed to encourage schools to add more opportunities for women..this is a great thing....anyone with a daughter they love would agree with this. However, the way it has been implemented is wrong, and has been DEVESTATING to the sport of wrestling. Schools have to figure out a way to balance their athletic budget....so instead of adding sports programs for girls sports which are almost NEVER profitable, they drop the least profitable or least popular mens sports. It sounds like this worked out great at your h.s. But so many colleges have been dropped that they have dropped entire divisions in college wrestling! When I was in h.s., the number of wrestling programs were so low, I think if there were 5-10 more teams to drop, the KHSAA was going to drop it as a sport. This is the biggest effect title ix has had, not adding opportunities for girls. That's why wrestlers hate title ix.....we don't hate women.

HCW:

You have two different arguements here.

1. Is the wrestling state tournament easy to qualify for?

2. Does the 32 man bracket help the sport of wrestling.

Most of the wrestling community knows that the 32 man bracket makes it easier to qualify for the state tourney. (Common sense tells you this)

However the powers that be have decided that the possitives outweigh the negatives here. The only negative is that it is easier to qualify and takes a little from the prestige of making the state tourney.

The positives are those that you tell us we cannot mention.

1. The proof is in the pudding, opening the state tourney to allow more in has saved some programs. (Perry Co.) saved thier program because they had state qualifiers and convinced thier school to keep the program because of their qualifiers. In Nky that is how Holmes is able to keep their program. There is also proof in the number of schools that have added wrestling since the 32 man bracket compared to any other 5 year span. 10+ schools have added wrestling in this time frame. (It could be a coincidence). Why not expand it? (It would add another day therfore costing the schools more money for travel) Its a dellicate balance at this points.

2. The second reason is that many regions complained that their 5th place finisher would have placed in the state tourney. Even though I don't like this argument there is some validity in it.

3. The 32 man bracket has caused more fans to become interested in the sport. The fan base at the state tourney has doubled since the 32 man bracket. It has caused the state tourney to be a huge success and an awsome event. (This is the same reason the NCAA basketball was expanded to 64)

As I have mentioned time and time agian. I am not a fan of the 32 man bracket, but I do see its usefullness at this time.

I do hope that at some time in the future that we can go back to the 16 man bracket, but we are not ready yet.

The Ancient one.

Who has seen over 25 Ky. state tourneys.

Wolverine,

You are very determined to argue such a moot point. So what if wrestling is not as statistically difficult to qualify. Until you have wrestled a match you are incapable of understanding the difficulty of wrestling and winning even one match to qualify. Wrestling is more difficult to qualify because the other sports/games you mention dont have 6 minutes of contestants trying to impose physical duress to your body to win the contest. You obviously have never been laced, quillotined, been hit with a blast double, try it some time I think you will find instant respect and the answers you seek. Step on the mat and you will understand why the statistics dont matter!

Pioneer Pride,

Excellent point. I agree with you totally, that Title IX originally set out to do a good thing, but was carried too far. Let's hope more Kentucky colleges and universities add wrestling back to their athletic departments soon.

For the people getting tired of me on this topic' date=' I will shut up about it on the following conditions:

1) You can come up with a list of valid, viable reasons (I would settle for 2, but the more the merrier) of why the 32-man bracket cannot be changed in any way, shape or form.[/quote']

It can be changed, we all know that...you've just never given us (or at least me) a good reason as to why it should be. You feel it's soooo easy to qualify for state that it should be made harder. I and some others disagree with you on this. Plus, if we allowed 2 kids per team....and left everything else the same (4 kids per region go to state). It would be tougher (satisfying you), but a lot of regions would run into 5 match rule limitations. They'd either have to make regionals a 2 day tournament or decide on who wins 3rd & 4th on criteria of some sort.

I think many of you are missing the point, and that point is money, money, money.

Regional tournaments were eliminated because a 32-man bracket meant an extra night at state, thus more money for Frankfort and the KHSAA. No one was eliminated on the first day of the state tournament, because doing so would have meant people leaving after the first night. That means lost revenue for the local restaurants, hotels, and etc. Get use to the 32-man bracket, we are never going back to the District, Regional, and State format. Will we seed? Possibly, but it won’t be done until a system can be devised where a majority of the coaches in the state would agree on the format.

Making it to the state tournament may not be as difficult, but it has helped the growth in the state. In my first year Western Kentucky had 6 teams this year we had 12 teams, and there is talk of 2-3 more teams next year. That’s growth, can it be shown that the 32-man bracket is directly responsible? No, but it has something to do with it, as well as allowing 7th & 8th graders to compete again, as well as the Middle School and Elementary School state tournaments allowing young wrestlers a place to perform. If you really want a change lets talk about moving the State tournament to a venue that will allow more than 4 mats, or to places like WKU, EKU, NKU, which would mean less travel for some teams some years, thus saving them money that year, but at the same time exposing our sport to areas that don’t currently have it.

napleme;

The reason for no elimination the 1st day was due to the coaches. Many of the coaches have to travel to the state tourney. When they have a wrestler aliminated those wrestlers remain at the state tourney, because they have no way of getting them back home.

Those wrestlers that were eliminated on the 1st night and remaining at the hotel were a problem. By making everyone still competing the 2nd day the situation in the hotels improved dramaticaly.

I think you would also be shocked in how much say-so the coaches have in wrestling. They (KHSAA) never considered opening it up to 32 man until the coaches started requesting it. As for will we return? I think it will as soon as we have enough competitive schools to make the regional tournaments much larger.

A new venue has been considered for many years, but I don't thing the WKy schools would like going all the way to NKU once every 3 or 4 years. Nor would the Nky schools like going all the way to Wky once every 3 or 4 years. A centralized location is much more appropriate.

grappler-of-old

I see the point of only one match on the first day, but still think a larger venue is necessary if we are going to stay at 32-men. It makes for a really long day if your team qualifies all 10-14 wrestlers. As for traveling long distances, if it meant that my school could save on hotel bills once every 3 to 4 years it would be ok with me, especially if it meant sleeping in my own bed during the state tournament, I still be in favor of rotating the venue. In the end I'm for anything that encourages growth of the greatest sport I know.

NKU is building a new arena to be opened in either late 2007 or early 2008....it's floor space is supposed to be 200' by 100'. If my calculations are correct...that would be 8 42' by 42' mats. Not sure what size mats they use at the state tourney. It's supposed to be able to hold between 7-9000 people. This may be a great place to look at....but it's far from a neutral site. But still, with 8 mats, we could cruise through a 32 man bracket I would think.

BUT, you have to account for the cost of using the site. I think the KHSAA gets the Civic Center for nothing (or close to it). Unless that changes, we are in Frankfort for the long haul. I'm okay with that.

Frankfort rocks! No complaining here...even with a 32 man, 3 day tournament...it's my favorite time of the year.

BUT' date=' you have to account for the cost of using the site. I think the KHSAA gets the Civic Center for nothing (or close to it). Unless that changes, we are in Frankfort for the long haul. I'm okay with that.[/quote']

If this changes, which is a possibility every time a new governor is elected, then we may need to find more economic places to be.

I do agree however that the Civic Center is a great place. The only negatives are.

1. It's too easy to get on the floor. Those railings are to flimsy and many wretlers get a bad rap while trying to get through them.

2. The adjacent hotel is always full and hard to find decent lodging in the area.

WOW! This thread has really ran the gambit. Everything from girls badminton to title IX to venues and back to wrestling again... Highly entertaining! And frankly, has kept me from getting a lot of work done. :oops:

If they're paying for it anyway, why not look for a larger place that has more local accomodations? I've been to some VERY large scale tourneys for other sports (no, I'm not comparing wrestling to FILL IN THE BLANK ________ ) . I went to one had a pretty cool set up. It was at a college campus that had the benefit of having a few different gyms. The events were spread out to the different gyms. There were postings that said where each event was taking place. If you did that in wrestling, you wouldn't want to move the weight classes around between gyms, but you could balance out the crowds a bit. For example: HWTs in gym A for the entire weekend. The spectators would be responsible for checking out the boards and brackets to find what they wanted to see and where to see it. Admission was paid and a bracelet was issued, which got you into any of the three gyms for the day. The finals were in the largest or main gym on the last day. Concessions were in all three gyms PLUS, the campus cafeteria was open and being a college town, lots to do.

Idk, just a thought.

I didn't realize that we had to pay this year. Well, if that's the case then a move is definitely possible. One that I've heard is a real possibility is Richmond. Not sure how many mats you could fit in, but probably more than the current 4. Not really centrally located, but pretty close and likely more accomodations. I don't know if the rotation idea would work. A site would probably want to lock in the dates for some period of time.

I honestly cant see any place better than Frankfort the atmosphere there is just too amazing to be duplicated anywhere else

I honestly cant see any place better than Frankfort the atmosphere there is just too amazing to be duplicated anywhere else

You are correct, but they Definitely need to work on the hospitality room. You get spoiled going to tournaments that have great rooms and then go to state, the big event and well "not so Good".

but they Definitely need to work on the hospitality room. You get spoiled going to tournaments that have great rooms and then go to state' date=' the big event and well "not so Good".[/quote']

I have to agree, the hospitality room stinks. And to make matters worse it is closed half the time. I don't know how they expect coaches with a number of wrestlers competing to "schedule" time to get a drink and bite to eat.

Being from ohio where we have the tourney in the same place every year (Ohio State university) i would say that the place that hold the tourney should stay consistent through the years. Thus i feel that even if they did make a move they should plan on the tourney being there for a while. This would give the tourney more "tradition" if you will and a bit more of a legacy. I do like the frankfort facility but i also agree that there is a bit to much freedom. As a person off the street, if you will i was able to sit in chair in the corner as my friends wrestled as well as warm up with them in the back room. this is the type of thing that keeps the state tourney in Ky from being a truly Prestigious tourney

I don't know about most coaches, but a minimal fee of $5 (which I would pay) per team would make a pretty good amount of money to have better food (selection) and keep it open for our conveinence.