Wrestler "A" puts in the legs on Wrestler "B.' Wrestler B does a nice job of slipping out of the legs and wrestler "A" ends up in a leg scissors around the body. Wrestler "A" cranks a powerhalf and squeezes the leg scisssors. As soon as this happens, the ref stops the match and awards Wrestler "B" a penalty point for an illegal move. The ref explained that the wrestler used the leg scissors as a 'punishing' move, and even though a scissors on the body is legal... the wrestler ran them too hard, and they became 'punishing'. He had a powerhalf with this, so he was trying to turn him.

The coach's asked the question to the ref was, how is running the leg scissors hard any different from running the power half too hard?! He said he  didn't get a good explanation for that. By definition, what defines a "punishing move?" Also, can any move potentially become a punishing move?!

Just thought some one might know?

i think ther is no way the leg scissors can be punishing unless the b wrestler is crying because hes a big puss

i think ther is no way the leg scissors can be punishing unless the b wrestler is crying because hes a big puss

:lol:  very nice.

This was controversial at middle school level a few years ago.  We asked the refs about it, because people were complaining quite a bit about 1 or 2 kids.  The ref stated it was basically at the refs discretion as to whether the move was becoming "punishing".  I guess "punishing" is the term in the rule book for when a move is just trying to hurt the kid.  He said it was at the ref's discretion, but this ref said if he sees a kid basically straightening his toes out when he has a body scissors in, and it looks extremely uncomfortable, he breaks it.  I don't remember the ref.  Now don't bash on me, I'm just stating what the ref said.

V285 the wrestler wasn't a skirt he didn't say a word it was the ref's call.

Also if you crank scissors hard enough you can cause some pain.

I hate that word "punish". Refs use it as if it's a bad thing  :evil: My coach tells us to punish someone in several instances. In neutral if your opponent takes a shot punish him for even attempting to get a takedown by crossfacing or driving his head into the mat with your hips. When your opponent is stalling on bottom punish him for just laying there by putting pressure on his neck or cranking him to his back. There are several cases where punishing someone is perfectly legal.

To stay on topic though I think scissoring the body shouldn't be illegal, like you said previously having a tight half nelson could do the same or even more damage and the ref doesn't call it. I say if wrestler B doesn't pin himself, trust me it causes enough pain you want to pin yourself, or finds a quick way to get out of it it's his fault for ending up in it and he shouldn't get anything for being caught in it, in fact he should be in a sense "punished" for ending up in it. I personally only know a handful of refs that call this and to answer your question, it's up to the refs discretion to decide what is an "illegal punishing move".

Bear I see nothing wrong with making a wrestler pay for taking a shot as long as it's on the up an up in fact he should.

I hate that word "punish". Refs use it as if it's a bad thing  :evil:

Honestly, most refs are ex-wrestlers and do not mind a little punishment being dished out.  But back to the conversation I had with a ref a few years ago...this ref said they are basically looking to call it when a kid is simply using a hold to hurt their oponent.  Not to score points, or to counter a move.  If a kid has scissors on the guy, and he's holding on to keep from getting reversed...the ref is not likely going to call it illegal no matter how hard the kid is squeezing.  But if the kid is just toying with another wrestler, and they feel like inflicting some pain...they are probably going to call it.

At the time i thought there was absolutely nothing in the rule book regarding "punishing" moves, but aparently there is.  I wish refs would have called this when i was a first year wrestler on the receiving end of some punishment!

That makes sense PP. If there is any Refs out there give some of your take on this.

Thanx

Honestly, most refs are ex-wrestlers and do not mind a little punishment being dished out.  But back to the conversation I had with a ref a few years ago...this ref said they are basically looking to call it when a kid is simply using a hold to hurt their oponent.  Not to score points, or to counter a move.  If a kid has scissors on the guy, and he's holding on to keep from getting reversed...the ref is not likely going to call it illegal no matter how hard the kid is squeezing.  But if the kid is just toying with another wrestler, and they feel like inflicting some pain...they are probably going to call it.

At the time i thought there was absolutely nothing in the rule book regarding "punishing" moves, but aparently there is.  I wish refs would have called this when i was a first year wrestler on the receiving end of some punishment!

I absolutely agree, I personally have never done this to a first year wrestler that I have faced on the mat. It makes me sick to see someone do this to a first year wrestler, I feel bad saying that because I always think of Justin Davis. It's one thing with an experienced wrestler but on a first year wrestler I actually feel bad because it's almost like bullying. I do it to an extent on some of the newer wrestlers in the room just to get them used to the pain they will experience during a match. Also I do agree if your sitting there trying to punish someone and not trying to score, why go out and wrestle? You are better off just having a street fight for that sake. Maybe I should have elaborated on that more, but the form of punishment I was taught was absolutely legal. For example our coach never told us to punch someone when crossfacing, in fact he said take it nice and slow with the knuckle of your thumb across the bridge of their nose, guaruntee it's gonna hurt more and you get what you want which is the far arm trapped so you can run your far side craddle. This is an example of using "punishment" in a legal sense because your working to improve your position.

When did "punishing move" show up in the rule book?

I thought a move or hold was either legal or illegal and if you werent working to improve your position or turn someone then it was a stalemate or stalling.

I for one am really tired of seeing kids cry on the mat. Usually its because they are upset more than hurting. I would like to see matches end when a kids starts to cry during a match, the kid not crying should be declared the winner. This would eliminate alot of the crying.

Bear, i agree 100% with you.  It is a rough sport, and kids might as well get used to it sooner than later.  I knew where you were coming from, didn't think you were a dirty wrestler or anything like that.

Eville Dad, i can't even say for certain it is in the rule book, I'm just saying what I was told by a ref.  I don't know if there's a term for it or not...I just had a ref say a body scissors can be called illegal if they are using it only to inflict pain. 

When did "punishing move" show up in the rule book?

I thought a move or hold was either legal or illegal and if you werent working to improve your position or turn someone then it was a stalemate or stalling.

I for one am really tired of seeing kids cry on the mat. Usually its because they are upset more than hurting. I would like to see matches end when a kids starts to cry during a match, the kid not crying should be declared the winner. This would eliminate alot of the crying.

There is a lot of crying, I've always thought to myself if a kid spent as much energy working offense on the mat as they do being upset, mad, and crying the outcome would be quite different. An example could be a kid storming off the mat throwing everything in his path. Why couldn't we see that kind of energy from that kid on the mat?? Sometimes I don't think kids know when they feel physically tired more than likely it's 100% mental.

As an official myself I have NEVER heard of another official saying the leg scissors was an illegal move.  Most of the official in our sport have wrestled before. When I am on the mat I know that there are going to be some matches that kids will get punished, thats just a part of our great sport. Someone that has never seen out sport before would think that most the moves could be used to punish someone. Wrestling is a rough sport, but you know that going into the sport. 

I know the kid the refs started watching for "punishing" with the leg scissors.  That kid was obviously trying to turn the "wrestler B" with the power half and leg scissors which means he was trying to score which is more than most people can say about a cross-face (a defensive hold).  I personnally believe that some whiner coaches complained because their MS kids were being beat by this kid's clever move.  It is sad, but those same coaches are still at it and still haven't learned to try and utilize a winning hold and figure out a route to beat it rather than whine about it.

dinubus;

    I do agree with the whining coaches.  Just remember that a wrestler can and have used a scissors for only punishment. I have seen it and personally did it myself. Of course that was many many moons ago.

    I would be all for never calling this illegal, but the seldom seen "Fair"side of me says that it should be called if it is obviously just for punishment.

wrestling john fahy is a punishing move lol im jus kiddin hes a gud kid :-D

V285 the wrestler wasn't a skirt he didn't say a word it was the ref's call.

Also if you crank scissors hard enough you can cause some pain.

It states in the rule book that the official needs to develope a feel for the match.  Most everyone knows that most officials are former wrestlers and they know a lot of tricks also.  Our better officials in the state are usually very verbal to the wrestlers while on the mat, so I  am pretty sure that the wrestler who was penalized was probably verbally warned before he was penalized.  I hear the officials all the time so you probably knew a penalty was coming.  In your case though if it was a couple of years ago then I think it was called potentially dangerous the first two times. 

Actually, the ref (Rocky) just called it and awarded a point. He did not say anything to the wrestler (whom he seemed to dislike from MS wrestling), he just made the call.  Anyway, it is a great way to make the sport weaker so that anyone can participate.  Isn't that what society is going for now-a-days anyhow? 

The best feel for the match is to make the calls listed in black and white and leave out anything to do with "ref's discretion".  It is only through "ref's discretion" that refs become more like Cattan and seek the spotlight rather than let it shine on the ones it is supposed to - the competitors.

Oops, I believe I have said to much!

dinubus:

Sounds to me you want to make this into a UFC thing.  The truth is that most of the best wrestlers don't punish their opponents.  They use technique to defeat their opponents.  I was not one of the best therefore I needed to punish my opponent to defeat him.  This worked with the less competitive wrestlers but not the top notch kids. 

Also,  If this was a MS match I see where it may need to be called more closely. Middle school wrestlers are not as physically and mentally tough enough for a physically mature 8th grader just using punishing moves to win.  MS wrestling is to help develop wrestlers and keep more kids interested in the sport.  Many physically inferior kids in middle school mature into great wrestlers because they develop their bodies to be able to withstand the rough and tough sport of wrestling.

It also intrigues me that you choose Cattan as your example.  If there is anyone out there that allows for these types of moves to go it it Cattan.  He allows the high school kids to bang harder than any other ref out there.  I hear more compaints about him not calling unnecessary roughness than anything else he does.  I agree wrestling is meant to be tough but there is a fine line between being tough and downright dirty wrestling.

Dang now I am going to have to soak my fingers because all this typing has taken its toll on these old and fragile fingers.

Read for content.  Rocky was the ref, not Cattan.

Oh, and I did wrestle top notch competition.  I wrestled in and took the AAU Nationals while in MS and High School.  I also took State in Michigan.  Now, I loved to use what these refs now call punishing moves.  I loved nothing less than to take a double chickenwing and sit out so deep that the kid screamed in agony.  Course back then, the ref would call a mercy pin even if the kids shoulders wouldn't quite go down.  I also loved to put in a double grapevine while extending a double underhook.  I loved anything that would cause them to submit.

It is supposed to be an aggressive sport.  There is nothing I hate more than to watch these kids back up off the whistle.  They should be hit for stalling as soon as they take that first step backwards.  Get them more aggressive, don't make the sport into a game!

It becomes a punishing move when you begin to develope heaps of sand in your vagina.

Dinubus:

I was referring to your second referance, saying officials become more like Cattan.

Double chicken wings cannot become punishing.  However Double legs can if you pull his arms out without allowing him to catch himself.  Even in the stone age when I wrestled I got called for that numerous times.

With your theory we should also allow slams becuse a slam is just an agressive way to take a person down.  One lift and trip may be legal while another may be called a slam. 

An aggressive scissors of the body can crack ribs just as easily as a slam can seperate a shoulder.

Dinubus:

I was referring to your second referance, saying officials become more like Cattan.

Double chicken wings cannot become punishing.  However Double legs can if you pull his arms out without allowing him to catch himself.  Even in the stone age when I wrestled I got called for that numerous times.

With your theory we should also allow slams becuse a slam is just an agressive way to take a person down.  One lift and trip may be legal while another may be called a slam.   

An aggressive scissors of the body can crack ribs just as easily as a slam can seperate a shoulder.

You never watched Ian Horn wrestle, jojo carr, or any Iowa wrestling match in your life, or any college match for that matter. You claimed that you weren't one of the best so how do you know there logic behind wrestling. Ian Horn stepped on the mat with the same state of mind, im going to kick this kids butt weather it means hurtin him, teching him pinning him

, im going to make this kid want to quit. a very very punishing wrestler.

You never watched Ian Horn wrestle, jojo carr, or any Iowa wrestling match in your life, or any college match for that matter. You claimed that you weren't one of the best so how do you know there logic behind wrestling. Ian Horn stepped on the mat with the same state of mind, im going to kick this kids butt weather it means hurtin him, teching him pinning him

, im going to make this kid want to quit. a very very punishing wrestler.

Goo has probably watched more of those guys' live matches than you have young fella!  I would say that while Joe Carr Jr may have had a mean game face on, he was not what many people would have considered a "punishing" wrestler.  He was extremely technical.  Especially in his earlier years.  He probably could have been as punishing as he wanted to by his Jr/Sr year, simply because he was so much better than the rest of the state.  But he wasn't punishing, more technical than anything.  Don't flip out on me Kentucky10, that's not an insult at all.

Dinubus:

I was referring to your second referance, saying officials become more like Cattan.

Double chicken wings cannot become punishing.  However Double legs can if you pull his arms out without allowing him to catch himself.  Even in the stone age when I wrestled I got called for that numerous times.

With your theory we should also allow slams becuse a slam is just an agressive way to take a person down.  One lift and trip may be legal while another may be called a slam.   

An aggressive scissors of the body can crack ribs just as easily as a slam can seperate a shoulder.

Actually, I love Freestyle (Olypic wrestling) and yes what would you call a suplex?

Oops, spelling - Olympic (sorry all)

Goo has probably watched more of those guys' live matches than you have young fella!  I would say that while Joe Carr Jr may have had a mean game face on, he was not what many people would have considered a "punishing" wrestler.  He was extremely technical.  Especially in his earlier years.  He probably could have been as punishing as he wanted to by his Jr/Sr year, simply because he was so much better than the rest of the state.  But he wasn't punishing, more technical than anything.  Don't flip out on me Kentucky10, that's not an insult at all.

no, its cool. but i dissagree, true he may have seen those guys live, but i have watched alot of tapes, many times. i think we differ in opinion of what a "punishing wrestler" is. I think of a punishing wrestler to be someone like matt zarth  who stuck me every time we met this year, someone who dominates like that. Like jojo carr, ian horn, and most hawkeyes.

And, who is to say that someone who is a "punishing" wrestler isn't technical.  I knew plenty of moves.  I still know a lot, and I have forgotten way more.  Yet, when I walked out on that mat to see someone else with the audacity to stand in front of me, I grew angry because they should have known better.  After the match, I could be quite friendly to them and may even teach them a move or two, but I hated each and every opponent I had while I was on the mat with them.  That is what made me a punishing wrestler and I do not see anything wrong with it.  It is a sport after all, not a game.

This doesnt really have anything to do with a real wrestling match but when i wrestle my friends that arent wrestlers and i get them in scissors across the body i do it as hard as i can and give them a nice cross face.. lol

but back on topic i dont really see how you can call a punishing move at all because some wrestlers have higher pain tolerance then others.. if you get a kid that has a very low pain tolerance and you barly scissor them and they cry like you have squeezed the crap out of them then you get penalized for having a a completly legal move but just a whiney opponent.

Danger, you're a dirty boy. :evil: (but funny)

This doesnt really have anything to do with a real wrestling match but when i wrestle my friends that arent wrestlers and i get them in scissors across the body i do it as hard as i can and give them a nice cross face.. lol

but back on topic i dont really see how you can call a punishing move at all because some wrestlers have higher pain tolerance then others.. if you get a kid that has a very low pain tolerance and you barly scissor them and they cry like you have squeezed the crap out of them then you get penalized for having a a completly legal move but just a whiney opponent.

You can tell, or at least I can by physical signs. Loss of breath like taking deep gasps for breath is a sign or if you see there face turning beat red is another sign. No matter though usually the guys who have a lower pain tolerance shouldn't have those moves done to them anyway because they aren't and experienced wrestler. With a wrestler that hasn't wrestled often they don't need to be embarrased like that. I remember my eighth grade year I faced a kid from Colliervile TN. I was a second year wrestler, unlike JD lol, and missed weight and was wrestling a tough tough varsity team. They eventually beat us 89-0, ouch, ya we ran it seemed like all night after that loss. Coach also likes to play with numbers so every tenth of a pound we were off we had to do one hundred push ups. For ex. I was a pound and 2 tenths over so I had to do 1,200 push ups by the end of the day. He also made us do 89 laps around the gym. We got the point after that loss. Any ways I faced  tough kid and he scissored my body so hard that I started yelling. Ref called the pin and told me sorry but you were pinned so I couldn't stop the match. My point is on more experienced kids go for all the punishing moves, that are legal, you want ; but on younger kids it's not nessecary. The way younger kids should be brought up is having their teammates go out there and put them through pain for them just to start getting used to it until they can put the hurting on their opponent.

Freestyle does not allow guillotines which is an extremely painful move. 

Bottom line:  Like all sports there are rules.  These rules are set in place for the safety of the KIDS, and the preservation of the sport. 

If it was all about pain why not allow them to pull fingers back, hyperextend elbows and knees, wrench the neck, or take chicken wings past 90 degrees?  Even a crossface can be illegal, we all know this. 

Moves that can become illegal because of punishment.  Crossface, leg scissors, banana splits, front headlocks, any headlock that shuts off the carotid artery, even a half when the elbow is purposely forced past the head. 

But as someone stated GOOD officials will give you verbal warnings before they call it illegal and will also call it potentially dangerous, until you do it a second or third time. 

Wrestling with intensity and aggressiveness is one thing, but going out there to hurt or injure your opponent is another. I have seen wrestlers go out there with the intent of injury, not caring if they win or lose.  This is not what the sport is about.  And I am sure all of you will agree with me on that.

Freestyle does not allow guillotines which is an extremely painful move. 

Bottom line:  Like all sports there are rules.  These rules are set in place for the safety of the KIDS, and the preservation of the sport. 

If it was all about pain why not allow them to pull fingers back, hyperextend elbows and knees, wrench the neck, or take chicken wings past 90 degrees?  Even a crossface can be illegal, we all know this. 

Moves that can become illegal because of punishment.  Crossface, leg scissors, banana splits, front headlocks, any headlock that shuts off the carotid artery, even a half when the elbow is purposely forced past the head. 

But as someone stated GOOD officials will give you verbal warnings before they call it illegal and will also call it potentially dangerous, until you do it a second or third time. 

Wrestling with intensity and aggressiveness is one thing, but going out there to hurt or injure your opponent is another. I have seen wrestlers go out there with the intent of injury, not caring if they win or lose.  This is not what the sport is about.  And I am sure all of you will agree with me on that.

1. The guillotine is a weak move that is easily reversed by anyone with an ounce of fight in them.  Not much of a punishment!

2.  Wrestling is all about "Intense LEGAL pain".  Of course safety is a concern.  I didn't say go out and break someones neck.  Just put them through as much pain as is neccessary to make them never desire to set foot on the mat with you again.  So, again, it is not about "injuring your opponent" which is what you are changing it too, but yes - go ahead and hurt your opponent.  Those are 2 very different things.

1. The guillotine is a weak move that is easily reversed by anyone with an ounce of fight in them.  Not much of a punishment!

2.  Wrestling is all about "Intense LEGAL pain".  Of course safety is a concern.  I didn't say go out and break someones neck.  Just put them through as much pain as is neccessary to make them never desire to set foot on the mat with you again.  So, again, it is not about "injuring your opponent" which is what you are changing it too, but yes - go ahead and hurt your opponent.  Those are 2 very different things.

You must have not been around many good leg riders. It was hit and almost pinned one of our 3 time state champions. He did get out of it, but I'm sure he put up a fight. Especially long guys like Derrick Moore it's pretty easy to get that move so, I have to disagree with the first statement. Btw I had one of the best leg riders in the state down in my practice room so I would know IT IS A FORM OF PUNISHMENT! It's because our coach taught it to be punishing  :evil: Like especially when you lock it over and you straighten your leg out you basically want to pin yourself it hurts so bad.

2.  Wrestling is all about "Intense LEGAL pain".  Of course safety is a concern.  I didn't say go out and break someones neck.  Just put them through as much pain as is necessary to make them never desire to set foot on the mat with you again.  So, again, it is not about "injuring your opponent" which is what you are changing it too, but yes - go ahead and hurt your opponent.  Those are 2 very different things.

I agree 100% with this statement if and only if HURT means put your opponent in pain.  Pain is what makes your opponent do what you want them to. 

I think the work HURT is where we are disagreeing with.  When I hear hurt I think of injury, not just pain.  I agree make your opponent know you were there.  If you don't defeat them, let them know you were there, and make them think, "I beat that kid but I sure hope I don't have to wrestle him again." 

It seems this may be what you are referring to Dinubus.  If so sorry for the misunderstanding.  :-D

Back to the question at hand tho.  Yes a scissors can be called punishing, if the offensive wrestler is using it for only punishment and not truly trying to pin their opponent.  This is determined by a good referee.  Which sadly we have very few of in the great state of KY. 

In many cases its not the wrestlers fault but the lack of good officiating that allows abuse of rules such as this.  Get out there and rustle up some kids who can become our next great officials.

(OK that was my soapbox moment)

Danger, you're a dirty boy. :evil: (but funny)

he is such a man whore lol 8-)

I agree 100% with this statement if and only if HURT means put your opponent in pain.  Pain is what makes your opponent do what you want them to. 

I think the work HURT is where we are disagreeing with.  When I hear hurt I think of injury, not just pain.  I agree make your opponent know you were there.  If you don't defeat them, let them know you were there, and make them think, "I beat that kid but I sure hope I don't have to wrestle him again." 

It seems this may be what you are referring to Dinubus.  If so sorry for the misunderstanding.   :-D

Back to the question at hand tho.  Yes a scissors can be called punishing, if the offensive wrestler is using it for only punishment and not truly trying to pin their opponent.  This is determined by a good referee.  Which sadly we have very few of in the great state of KY. 

In many cases its not the wrestlers fault but the lack of good officiating that allows abuse of rules such as this.  Get out there and rustle up some kids who can become our next great officials.

(OK that was my soapbox moment)

I couldn't agree more with that post

It becomes a punishing move when you begin to develope heaps of sand in your vagina.

i really agree with this guy

You must have not been around many good leg riders. It was hit and almost pinned one of our 3 time state champions. He did get out of it, but I'm sure he put up a fight. Especially long guys like Derrick Moore it's pretty easy to get that move so, I have to disagree with the first statement. Btw I had one of the best leg riders in the state down in my practice room so I would know IT IS A FORM OF PUNISHMENT! It's because our coach taught it to be punishing  :evil: Like especially when you lock it over and you straighten your leg out you basically want to pin yourself it hurts so bad.

No, I was a very good leg rider and it is a weak move.  Of course I hate tilts as well.  I like to put in something very nice and tight that the person can struggle all they want and things will only get worse.  That is why with my leg riding I liked power halves the best which is where I found the body scissor to be very benificial.  I also liked a person who would shoot with their head low between my legs as I could do a quick crotch lift while figure fouring thier head and have them pinned quite quickly.  Tight moves like double chicken wings, cradles, cowboys, etc.. are great moves.

I agree 100% with this statement if and only if HURT means put your opponent in pain.  Pain is what makes your opponent do what you want them to. 

I think the work HURT is where we are disagreeing with.  When I hear hurt I think of injury, not just pain.  I agree make your opponent know you were there.  If you don't defeat them, let them know you were there, and make them think, "I beat that kid but I sure hope I don't have to wrestle him again." 

It seems this may be what you are referring to Dinubus.  If so sorry for the misunderstanding.   :-D

Back to the question at hand tho.  Yes a scissors can be called punishing, if the offensive wrestler is using it for only punishment and not truly trying to pin their opponent.  This is determined by a good referee.  Which sadly we have very few of in the great state of KY. 

In many cases its not the wrestlers fault but the lack of good officiating that allows abuse of rules such as this.  Get out there and rustle up some kids who can become our next great officials.

(OK that was my soapbox moment)

I do not believe in injuring a person on purpose.  It happens, but you should not do it on purpose.  I do like to hurt, and I believe that is what a "punishing" move does.  It hurts, but doesn't injure.  All moves for injury are illegal, so I am not sure how you can be a "punishing" wrestler if it means you are trying to injure.  I mean, arm locks, full nelsons, strangle holds, and all that jaz taught in martial arts are already illegal.

dinubus just wanted to clarify are you a North Oldam wrestler.

No, I am 32 years old, just a bit old to have wrestled for that program.