www.kentuckywrestlingnews.blogspot.com

Won't anyone spill the beans about what this major proposed change in Kentucky wrestling might be?  Come on, let's at least start speculating early.

That's what blogs are for!!!

The only opinion i have on this is that region 3 needs to be realigned because it is a joke every year so i believe they need better competition in that region

The only opinion i have on this is that region 3 needs to be realigned because it is a joke every year so i believe they need better competition in that region

Won't anyone spill the beans about what this major proposed change in Kentucky wrestling might be?  Come on, let's at least start speculating early.

That's what blogs are for!!!

Hopefully, it is that coaches can legally coach/instruct their wrestlers in the off-season.  In my opinion that is one major change that is needed to continue to improve the quality of wrestling in KY.

Hopefully, it is that coaches can legally coach/instruct their wrestlers in the off-season.  In my opinion that is one major change that is needed to continue to improve the quality of wrestling in KY.

This will never happen, it's a rule for all sports to keep coaches from making off-season practices "mandatory".

Hopefully, it is that coaches can legally coach/instruct their wrestlers in the off-season.  In my opinion that is one major change that is needed to continue to improve the quality of wrestling in KY.

Well at tournaments and open mats wrestlers are coached, etc.. but im not a fan of having mandatory off season practice

I really wish I could say more but I have been told not to. Trust me. It is something long awaited and needed for kentucky wrestling.

New "weight" class added in 09-10 for just the Ervins to wrestle in????

Maybe the state tournament will be split into divisions?  Just a thought....

Maybe the state tournament will be split into divisions?  Just a thought....

not enough teams i think, no expert though

I'm going to agree with CCMS_SC and go with they are going to allow h.s. coaches coach in the off season.  In some capacity whether it's allowing them to coach FS/GR or just coaching at nationals.  That would be huge if that got passed.

not enough teams i think, no expert though

Well, I know there are plenty of states who have multiple divisions, with 40 or fewer teams in each.  I honestly am opposed to the idea of splitting the state tournament into divisions, but some people will argue that splitting it up will cause the sport to grow because smaller and weaker schools will experience more success.

My response on the new website about state duals:

Could the top 16 teams at the individual state tourney be the 16 that are competing at state duals? Or you could keep taking the top two from each reason but make the criteria how you finish at the individual state tournament as a team.

I think it could and probably should be some form of seeding for the state tourney instead of a blind draw

I think it could and probably should be some form of seeding for the state tourney instead of a blind draw

I think Savage hit it right on the nail.

Seed the top 8 and blind draw the rest?

Region 7 needs to look at how they did their "Super Duals" last year and not do the again!  Every team needs to wrestle each team.  No pool play. 

Seed the top 8 and blind draw the rest?

I would like that.

Region 7 needs to look at how they did their "Super Duals" last year and not do the again!  Every team needs to wrestle each team.  No pool play. 

Region 7 Super Duals format for next season will involve everyone team wrestling every team (no pool play).  With 13 teams in the region, each team will have to wrestle 1 dual prior to the two day super dual tournament.

I don't like the seed the top 8 idea.  Who is going to do the seeding?  Technically we are already seeding the top 8 by placing the first placer from one region against the 4th from another.  Any more than that and it gets into personal bias's or paying extra money to have an out of state person do it. 

I don't like the seed the top 8 idea.  Who is going to do the seeding?  Technically we are already seeding the top 8 by placing the first placer from one region against the 4th from another.  Any more than that and it gets into personal bias's or paying extra money to have an out of state person do it. 

Ever heard of a seeding meeting? You cannot tell me the 8 region champs are the 8 best wrestlers in a weight class. Based on statistics look at it the 8 region champs HARDLY EVERRRRRR become the top 8 placers, it just never happens. The top 8 seeds is a great idea. We already have a pretty good system for seeding at tournaments, WHY NOT THE BIG ONE???? Come on we have to grow and not seeding is just keeping us that much lower. We have several border states that run seeded state tournaments well. HECK even the NCAAS is seeded!! I think it will give this sport something to grow on and actually reward those who wrestle during the season and gives kids something to work for during the season. Take Rangers rankings as a seeding tool, I think we all can pretty much agree Ranger is pretty good with rankings and is very unbiased( Trust me I know where he's from and he puts kids exactly where they need to be based on results) If we worked off of Rangers rankings as the seeding I think it would be pretty easy beside the usual argumentitive coach. I think it's much need and would give the energy of state up a notch.

Look at the fact Judson Pittman lost in the first round despite being a region winner. It just doesnt work

Ever heard of a seeding meeting? You cannot tell me the 8 region champs are the 8 best wrestlers in a weight class. Based on statistics look at it the 8 region champs HARDLY EVERRRRRR become the top 8 placers, it just never happens. The top 8 seeds is a great idea. We already have a pretty good system for seeding at tournaments, WHY NOT THE BIG ONE???? Come on we have to grow and not seeding is just keeping us that much lower. We have several border states that run seeded state tournaments well. HECK even the NCAAS is seeded!! I think it will give this sport something to grow on and actually reward those who wrestle during the season and gives kids something to work for during the season. Take Rangers rankings as a seeding tool, I think we all can pretty much agree Ranger is pretty good with rankings and is very unbiased( Trust me I know where he's from and he puts kids exactly where they need to be based on results) If we worked off of Rangers rankings as the seeding I think it would be pretty easy beside the usual argumentitive coach. I think it's much need and would give the energy of state up a notch.

Seeding would be great in the obvious cases where like Daniel Thunneman & Harrison Courtney met in the Semis, but the questionable weight classes a lot of these coaches including Ranger do not get a chance to see all the kids from across the state.  So without ever seeing them, how do you even debate a seed?  This has been discussed before on the site, and I guess if there was going to be seeding at state, I'd like to see it done the way they do it in Tennessee where there's a point system predefined.  Someone posted their seeding criteria for their state tournament and it was pretty cool how that was done.  It was weighted somehow like a returning state champ in the same weight class got 10 points, a returning state champ in a different weight got 8 points, a returning state placer might have got 6 points.  If the coaches could do something like that, fine.  But a bunch of h.s. coaches arguing their case to seed the h.s. state tournament, I wouldn't really be in favor of that.  Too many slick moves would go on to position wrestlers for team points.

Seeding would be great in the obvious cases where like Daniel Thunneman & Harrison Courtney met in the Semis, but the questionable weight classes a lot of these coaches including Ranger do not get a chance to see all the kids from across the state.  So without ever seeing them, how do you even debate a seed?  This has been discussed before on the site, and I guess if there was going to be seeding at state, I'd like to see it done the way they do it in Tennessee where there's a point system predefined.  Someone posted their seeding criteria for their state tournament and it was pretty cool how that was done.  It was weighted somehow like a returning state champ in the same weight class got 10 points, a returning state champ in a different weight got 8 points, a returning state placer might have got 6 points.  If the coaches could do something like that, fine.  But a bunch of h.s. coaches arguing their case to seed the h.s. state tournament, I wouldn't really be in favor of that.  Too many slick moves would go on to position wrestlers for team points.

That's fine, have an unbiased committee but one thing that you said is to do like Tennessee. We need to learn from the mistakes of their tournament. The way the bracket is set up if you loose first round the only way you can wrestle back is if the guy who beat you won. I really think this is a flaw in the way that tournament is set up.

That's fine, have an unbiased committee but one thing that you said is to do like Tennessee. We need to learn from the mistakes of their tournament. The way the bracket is set up if you loose first round the only way you can wrestle back is if the guy who beat you won. I really think this is a flaw in the way that tournament is set up.

Yea, that would stink.  But the NCAA's either used to be ran that way or may still be ran that way.  I believe some of the rounds work like that.  Dave Barnes wrestled back to make NCAA AA and some of his rounds I believe if the guy beat him lost his next match he was out.  I don't know, nothing's perfect.  I just can't wait til February.

Seeding the state tournament would be a great idea but the coaches aren't willing to sit through the meeting because it would take forever.  It would have to be done in person which means before the tournament and coaches from the far corners of the state would have to take an extra day to get there for the meeting.  I like the idea but think it should be the top 4.  Would be easier and take less time; most weights fall off around here anyway.

That's fine, have an unbiased committee but one thing that you said is to do like Tennessee. We need to learn from the mistakes of their tournament. The way the bracket is set up if you loose first round the only way you can wrestle back is if the guy who beat you won. I really think this is a flaw in the way that tournament is set up.

Correct me if I am wrong, but that is how our state tournament use to be back in the 80's. Is that also the way they wrestle in the Olympics?

Ever heard of a seeding meeting? You cannot tell me the 8 region champs are the 8 best wrestlers in a weight class. Based on statistics look at it the 8 region champs HARDLY EVERRRRRR become the top 8 placers, it just never happens. The top 8 seeds is a great idea. We already have a pretty good system for seeding at tournaments, WHY NOT THE BIG ONE???? Come on we have to grow and not seeding is just keeping us that much lower. We have several border states that run seeded state tournaments well. HECK even the NCAAS is seeded!! I think it will give this sport something to grow on and actually reward those who wrestle during the season and gives kids something to work for during the season. Take Rangers rankings as a seeding tool, I think we all can pretty much agree Ranger is pretty good with rankings and is very unbiased( Trust me I know where he's from and he puts kids exactly where they need to be based on results) If we worked off of Rangers rankings as the seeding I think it would be pretty easy beside the usual argumentitive coach. I think it's much need and would give the energy of state up a notch.

Obviously you have never coached and you have never been to a seeding meeting or you would not think seeding a 32 man bracket out to 8 places with 70 teams involved and with no regard to regional placement is feasible without a couple of 8 hour days devoted to it.

Oh, nothing against Ranger, but he is an assistant coach and I am pretty sure the coaches of all the other teams will not find him quite as "unbiased" as you do.

That's fine, have an unbiased committee but one thing that you said is to do like Tennessee. We need to learn from the mistakes of their tournament. The way the bracket is set up if you loose first round the only way you can wrestle back is if the guy who beat you won. I really think this is a flaw in the way that tournament is set up.

Oh, now we pay an out of state group to watch our wrestling results all year long and set up seeds for the state tournament.  Lets open our wallets and shell out some extra cash at the state tournament then.

This is not to mention that the mere thought of seeding the state tournament completely negates placement at regionals.  Don't you think those kids earned something by proving themselves when it counts?  If we go completely to seeding, the underdog with a 20-10 record that beats an unbeaten wrestler to win the Region tournament gets squat out of it at state.  That is rediculous!

Yea, that would stink.  But the NCAA's either used to be ran that way or may still be ran that way.  I believe some of the rounds work like that.  Dave Barnes wrestled back to make NCAA AA and some of his rounds I believe if the guy beat him lost his next match he was out.  I don't know, nothing's perfect.  I just can't wait til February.

We could always go to freestyle bracketting.  :-D

Oh, now we pay an out of state group to watch our wrestling results all year long and set up seeds for the state tournament.  Lets open our wallets and shell out some extra cash at the state tournament then.

This is not to mention that the mere thought of seeding the state tournament completely negates placement at regionals.  Don't you think those kids earned something by proving themselves when it counts?  If we go completely to seeding, the underdog with a 20-10 record that beats an unbeaten wrestler to win the Region tournament gets squat out of it at state.  That is rediculous!

Hey we finally agree on something! I don't like the idea of seeding a state tournament because of this exact reason.

Just my opinion, But I am Hoping that the 5 match rule for tournaments will change!!

This is not to mention that the mere thought of seeding the state tournament completely negates placement at regionals.  Don't you think those kids earned something by proving themselves when it counts?  If we go completely to seeding, the underdog with a 20-10 record that beats an unbeaten wrestler to win the Region tournament gets squat out of it at state.  That is rediculous!

I am not saying that we should go to seeding however I don't think this is a strong argument for not seeding.  Any regional results would have an effect on rankings and therefore seeding at the state tournament.  If someone beats a higher seed at the regional tournament then that would be considered when seeding the state tournament.  Head to head match ups are always one of the top criteria used for seeding.  I am sure Ranger's rankings that come out before the state tournament include results from regionals.

Just my opinion, But I am Hoping that the 5 match rule for tournaments will change!!

That would be GREAT!

I am not saying that we should go to seeding however I don't think this is a strong argument for not seeding.  Any regional results would have an effect on rankings and therefore seeding at the state tournament.  If someone beats a higher seed at the regional tournament then that would be considered when seeding the state tournament.  Head to head match ups are always one of the top criteria used for seeding.  I am sure Ranger's rankings that come out before the state tournament include results from regionals.

Sure, head to head, course that 20 - 10 record kid had lost to the undefeated guy 3 times prior that year (each one getting closer, but still a loss is a loss), so at the seeding meeting, this win is considered a fluke and he isn't even considered for a top seed.  I mean, if you look at head to head, he is 1-3 against the kid.  Sorry, your argument is not a good argument for seeding.  Not to mention (again) that Ranger is a Coach and any opposing coaches will not regard his rankings as unbiased!

Seeding the state tournament is outragious.  The kids have to step up when it matters, or not.  That is the way it is and should be.

Sure, head to head, course that 20 - 10 record kid had lost to the undefeated guy 3 times prior that year (each one getting closer, but still a loss is a loss), so at the seeding meeting, this win is considered a fluke and he isn't even considered for a top seed.  I mean, if you look at head to head, he is 1-3 against the kid.  Sorry, your argument is not a good argument for seeding.  Not to mention (again) that Ranger is a Coach and any opposing coaches will not regard his rankings as unbiased!

Tell me one coach that thinks Rangers Rankings are biased. I mean come on he's pretty much hit every weight on the nail the past years. The point for that 20-10 kid is if he's as good as he thinks seedings won't matter regardless, but you have to wrestle your tail off during the season I mean give me a break if  your good you'll perform regardless. Am I right I mean you say it yourself the best will pull through, but if we seed we'll make sure those wrestlers who deserve to have a shot in the finals instead of the semis. I'm tired of seeing a blow out in the finals but a close semis I want the best two wrestlers under the light and anyone who agrees with me will agree that is where seeding comes in to play.

If that is your whole argument, when the true first place match takes place, why do we argue about seeding the tournament and instead argue about wrestling for a true second place.  In any case that the person who lost in the finals has not wrestled the winner of the consolations, they must wrestle an addition match against one another for a TRUE second place.  Then there is no argument.  I mean, the places would be the places right? 

We will never be able to solve the perceived problem at the state tourney.

I say perceived because none really knows who the best two really are. 

Only Derek Nickles close friends would have picked him in the top 3 when he won his state title.

My point is that no matter what type of system we use for the brackets.  The brackets will never be perfect.  Truth is we will never be able to prove if they were or weren't.  As someone stated. Some kids pick it up when the time comes.  Others fall on their faces. 

If you want to solve all the problems and find the true top 8. You need to have a round robin tourney.  This is impractical and impossible to do.  Once again people wrestle your best work hard and take each loss with dignity.  I know it is an old saying but life is not fair.  If getting 3rd place at the state tourney instead of getting 2nd is the worst thing to ever happen to you feel blessed. 

Taking losses and feeling things were unfair builds character, and makes you a stronger adult/person.  Wrestling is what it is.  A one on one contest of will and dedication.  We do it because we love the sport not for the pieces of metal we receive at the end of each Saturday.

We will never be able to solve the perceived problem at the state tourney.

I say perceived because none really knows who the best two really are. 

Only Derek Nickles close friends would have picked him in the top 3 when he won his state title.

My point is that no matter what type of system we use for the brackets.  The brackets will never be perfect.  Truth is we will never be able to prove if they were or weren't.  As someone stated. Some kids pick it up when the time comes.  Others fall on their faces. 

If you want to solve all the problems and find the true top 8. You need to have a round robin tourney.  This is impractical and impossible to do.  Once again people wrestle your best work hard and take each loss with dignity.  I know it is an old saying but life is not fair.  If getting 3rd place at the state tourney instead of getting 2nd is the worst thing to ever happen to you feel blessed. 

Taking losses and feeling things were unfair builds character, and makes you a stronger adult/person.  Wrestling is what it is.  A one on one contest of will and dedication.  We do it because we love the sport not for the pieces of metal we receive at the end of each Saturday.

You're right.  That's wrestling and life.  I don't think seeding the state tournament will do much good anyway.  We can't just negate the regional results.  Tennessee, I believe, seeds returning placers who win their region.  I could see doing something like that, but I doubt we could ever get the entire coaching community to agree on which two wrestlers are the best.  Sure, there are some years that it is obvious who are the best in each weight class, but other years some weights are loaded.  In the end, the best wrestler on that weekend is going to win, and more likely than not, the second best is going to get 2nd or 3rd. So, lets just keep it as it is.  It makes the quarters and semis a little more interesting...

We will never be able to solve the perceived problem at the state tourney.

I say perceived because none really knows who the best two really are. 

Only Derek Nickles close friends would have picked him in the top 3 when he won his state title.

My point is that no matter what type of system we use for the brackets.  The brackets will never be perfect.  Truth is we will never be able to prove if they were or weren't.  As someone stated. Some kids pick it up when the time comes.  Others fall on their faces. 

If you want to solve all the problems and find the true top 8. You need to have a round robin tourney.  This is impractical and impossible to do.  Once again people wrestle your best work hard and take each loss with dignity.  I know it is an old saying but life is not fair.  If getting 3rd place at the state tourney instead of getting 2nd is the worst thing to ever happen to you feel blessed. 

Taking losses and feeling things were unfair builds character, and makes you a stronger adult/person.  Wrestling is what it is.  A one on one contest of will and dedication.  We do it because we love the sport not for the pieces of metal we receive at the end of each Saturday.

Excellent point to bring up Derek Nickel.  In any individual sport, seeding should reward the individual for success during the season, but that being said, with the constant lack of head to heads and mutual opponents...it has to be somewhat arbitrary.  This is one sport where that should be irrelevant.  No state champion to date has been able to say that they didn't earn it, so in hindsight what is the real importance of a seed?  Their will always be those who may have had an easier path to state, but that doesn't guarantee them a championship

I really feel like the best wrestler in the state, will win the state championship every time. Some people could argue that the true finals where in the semi's or whatever, but all in all i think the best wrestler always wins.

I would rather it be said that the winner of the state tournament is always the best wrestler for that day.  I Cannot really say that he/she is the best wrestler out of that group of wrestlers, just that they were the best that day.  And that isn't saying little of them.  It takes a big person to step up to the plate and perform when it counts.

Seeding the state tournament is outragious.  The kids have to step up when it matters, or not.  That is the way it is and should be.

i have always hated it when people say that. when it matters most...why doesnt the season matter? no one takes the season seriously, and i wish i knew why. whats so bad about the regular season that makes how you perform in it, not matter? there has got to be some way we can incorporate season finishes and and regional finishes. if not, what makes a regional tournament, any bigger of a win than a seasonal tournament? especially seasonal tournaments like the dragon, or the woodford invitational. if you ask me, more emphasis in seeding or placing seeds at the state tournament, should be placed on winning or placeing at these highly acclaimed tournaments. they are certainly tougher than regional tournaments, unless the best couple of kids at your weight happen to not be at these big tournaments. why should kids that do terrible during the season, but start to do good at regionals or have a fluke win be praised or rewarded more than a kid that has already beaten them three times during the regular season? oh well, i guess thats just my opinion.

tc125;

Being from the center of KY in the Lou/Lex area you may not understand what really goes on on the fringes of KY.

I know in the Nky area the only real option that these teams have is to go across the river into Ohio and participate.  This is done both out of necessity (Travel costs) and need (better competition).

I know many say that teams need to participate in Ky more, but only those in the Lou/ Lex areas say this because there are 30+ schools in a 25 mile radius to wrestle.  Nky only has 10 teams in a 50 mile radius to wrestle and Wky is in the same situation.  The Dragon and the WCI may be good KY tourneys but they pale in comparison to many of the Cincinnati area tourneys let alone the Dayton and further north tourneys.  Nky can either travel the 80-90 miles south into Ky and compete in some tourneys in Lex/Lou or travel the same 80-90 miles North and compete in tougher tourneys in Ohio. 

With that said.  The regular season is downplayed because it is what it is.  It is practice toward the Regional and State tourneys.  How many kids do you know have had extremely successfully regular seasons and either not qualify for the state or go 2 and out at the state tourney.  I have seen it dozens of times in my 20+ years.  I have also seen it go the other way. 

The champions bring their A game when the post season comes.  The Johnny come latter's do not. 

Once again I use Derrick Nickle as a prime example.  He brought his A game when it counted and used the regular season to get himself ready for the post season.

No-one remembers the kid who was 50-4 placing 8th in the state tourney.  But they will remember the kid who was 30-10 and earned the state title.  This is what makes this sport great.  Anyone can win when the post season starts.

i have always hated it when people say that. when it matters most...why doesnt the season matter? no one takes the season seriously, and i wish i knew why. whats so bad about the regular season that makes how you perform in it, not matter? there has got to be some way we can incorporate season finishes and and regional finishes. if not, what makes a regional tournament, any bigger of a win than a seasonal tournament? especially seasonal tournaments like the dragon, or the woodford invitational. if you ask me, more emphasis in seeding or placing seeds at the state tournament, should be placed on winning or placeing at these highly acclaimed tournaments. they are certainly tougher than regional tournaments, unless the best couple of kids at your weight happen to not be at these big tournaments. why should kids that do terrible during the season, but start to do good at regionals or have a fluke win be praised or rewarded more than a kid that has already beaten them three times during the regular season? oh well, i guess thats just my opinion.

Exactly, great point tc125. I agree totally with you.

Oh I would also like to add.  A big tournament does not necessarily mean a good/tough tournament. 

The WCI is just this.  Many teams (mostly small) but not many quality teams. Not my definition of a tough tournament.

Technically the regular season is not at all downplayed.  They use those results to seed the regional tournament.  Then, your placement at regional tournament essentially seeds you into the state tournament.  So, I don't see the problem.  The point I was making prior was that those individuals that desire the state win the greatest will achieve it.  You cannot tell me that all your wrestling combined could equate to one Olympic Gold Medal.  That proves, yet again, that certain times we need to bring it, or not.  Such is life.

Technically the regular season is not at all downplayed.  They use those results to seed the regional tournament.  Then, your placement at regional tournament essentially seeds you into the state tournament.  So, I don't see the problem.  The point I was making prior was that those individuals that desire the state win the greatest will achieve it.  You cannot tell me that all your wrestling combined could equate to one Olympic Gold Medal.  That proves, yet again, that certain times we need to bring it, or not.  Such is life.

Kentucky wrestling will stay stuck in the mud, want to know why? People are too scared to take chances! There is a reason that just about every state surrounding us is better. Not everyone is going to get their way no matter what we do to the tournament but I'm tired of seeing people who DON'T DESERVE to be in the finals in the finals. Yes I said it don't deserve, the reason they shouldn't desrve it is because if that guy who was in the semis with the number one guy ( aka the finals match) was seeded right he would've ended up on the opposite side of the bracket and smashed the guy who didn't deserve to be in the finals. Ex. Courtney should have been in the finals his 8th grade year, not because he got a bad call but because he probably would've smashed Garrison Headley if he were on the opposite side of the bracket because it was obviously a see saw between Courtney and Sanders as number one and two the whole year.

Oh I would also like to add.  A big tournament does not necessarily mean a good/tough tournament. 

The WCI is just this.  Many teams (mostly small) but not many quality teams. Not my definition of a tough tournament.

The WCI must've changed since the last time i went (9th grade year) because they had some pretty tough teams there. Woodfo, NH, Fern Creek, Scott, Science Hill, PLD, Seneca, All of the Oldham schools, Ceintenial TN, and this is when they had pretty tough teams with Daniel Thuemnan, the whole Wofo crew, tough Oldham Co. schools. You can tell which are the tougher tournaments though. From what I saw of the Woodford finals though I guess it isn't a tough tournament but I think just about everyone who placed 1st or 2nd placed high or placed in the state tournament.

Kentucky wrestling will stay stuck in the mud, want to know why? People are too scared to take chances! There is a reason that just about every state surrounding us is better. Not everyone is going to get their way no matter what we do to the tournament but I'm tired of seeing people who DON'T DESERVE to be in the finals in the finals. Yes I said it don't deserve, the reason they shouldn't desrve it is because if that guy who was in the semis with the number one guy ( aka the finals match) was seeded right he would've ended up on the opposite side of the bracket and smashed the guy who didn't deserve to be in the finals. Ex. Courtney should have been in the finals his 8th grade year, not because he got a bad call but because he probably would've smashed Garrison Headley if he were on the opposite side of the bracket because it was obviously a see saw between Courtney and Sanders as number one and two the whole year.

This may be a good argument for a "True" 2nd wrestle-off between the current 2nd-3rd spot, but does not give creedance to seeding the state tournament.

This may be a good argument for a "True" 2nd wrestle-off between the current 2nd-3rd spot, but does not give creedance to seeding the state tournament.

Well it's not true second wrestle off, it's a true first second place match. When you have two top level guys who are obviously above the rest of the pack don't you want to see them underneath the spot light where it counts where every fan is watching?

And you think seeding will make that happen?  I have been to many, many, many tournaments and the probability that the 1st and 2nd seed make it to the finals and wrestle each other has been at best 60%. If we look at our current state structure, we are probably already reaching that same statistic.  Thus, I still do not see a need for seeding.  All it does is tell the regional placers that their placement doesn't make a difference, and it adds a whole bunch of trouble / expense throughout the season to keep the best and most accurate records from which to seed.  Or, it adds the trouble of about a 3 day seeding meeting for the coaches (not sure any AD in the state would be willing to pay for their teacher/coach to be out that long).

And you think seeding will make that happen?  I have been to many, many, many tournaments and the probability that the 1st and 2nd seed make it to the finals and wrestle each other has been at best 60%. If we look at our current state structure, we are probably already reaching that same statistic.  Thus, I still do not see a need for seeding.  All it does is tell the regional placers that their placement doesn't make a difference, and it adds a whole bunch of trouble / expense throughout the season to keep the best and most accurate records from which to seed.  Or, it adds the trouble of about a 3 day seeding meeting for the coaches (not sure any AD in the state would be willing to pay for their teacher/coach to be out that long).

I don't think it would take three days to seed. I think every coach can agree they come up to state the night before the tournament, and if they don't they are in driving distance to the center. All it takes is a few hours the night before to seed it if you have a plan before you go in with a general idea of how the seeds are set up.

I just find it crazy that the NCAA tournament and how big it is can be seeded but yet we can't seed our top 8 wrestlers.

You do realize that the NCAA is seeded by an independent organization that gets paid very well, right?

Also, the top four seeds in a small 12 man tournament typically takes 2 hours to seed.  And that is only with the possible 12 - 16 teams.  The state tournament, with 70 teams and 32 man brackets seeding to 8 places will easily take 24 hours (3 full 8 hour days).

I have been told by a coach that the KHSAA has been asked about this in the past, and Julian Tackett's response is "the state tournament is where we determine the best wrestler, not the second best wrestler".  In light of this, I think does it really matter who's seeded where?  The best wrestler should be standing on top of the podium no matter where they are seeded at state.  The second best on down should wind up 2nd or 3rd I would guess.  But the best wrestler on that Saturday will be wearing the gold.  Seeding it would be a huge hassle for the coaches honestly. 

Kentucky wrestling will stay stuck in the mud, want to know why?

Exactly how does this keep Ky stuck in the mud?

People are too scared to take chances!

The boarder schools are taking chances.  They go to these "BETTER" (your word not mine) states.  They attend these tournaments and get losses.  This in turn hurts their possible seed at the Regional tourney. If they were forced to stay in KY.  Which is the only way to keep accurate records with common opponents and such.  They would then not be as good as they are now.

Lets take a look at this.  In Nky Simon Kenton, Campbell Co. and Ryle all spend more than half their season in Ohio.  Conner use to in the 80's when they were at the top of their game.  In WKy Union Co. spend a lot of time out of state, Hop-town spent almost their entire season out of state in their hayday in the 80s-90s.  Sheldon Clark spent much of their time in WV during their run in the late 90s.  I'm sure there are others.  But with the exception of Woodford Co. who does spend most of their time in Ky, you can see a correlation between teams who spend much of their time out of state to the top teams in Ky each year.

There is a reason that just about every state surrounding us is better.

Yeah there are reasons.

1.  Wresting has been around longer in most of these states.  Ky started in 64.

2.  Those states spend time in national tourneys (which means out of state)

3.  Wresting holds more clout in there High School Athletic Association

4.  These states have a higher population than Ky therefore have more participants in wrestling. 

I'm not sure how long you have been around Bear but KY has made leaps and bounds in the last 10 to 15 years.  Our kids are now competitive in many of the national tourneys.  They may not place, but they also are not blown out. 20 years ago this was defiantly not the situation. 

Ok, I think we should at least try it one year in the future though, if it's in the budget, time, etc. I'd just like to see some change in the tournament try new things you know? It's always a well run tournament, ( a little long for me I'd like to see the 16 man bracket back), and goes pretty fast considering how many mats there are. So if seeding is obviously not the case here, what do you think is going to change next year?

I will agree with you about the 16 man bracket.  I would love to see that back.

I believe the change we should see is the 5 match rule changed to a time on the mat rule. 

I think there should be no such thing as a 5 match rule.  I wrestled far more than that in a day and it wasn't a problem.  Heck, wrestlers perform far more matches in one practice than that.

I also think they should change the 45 min. rule into a 15 min. rule.  Wrestlers should be able to get their energy/wind back in 15 min.  If they cannot, maybe they need to think about:  a) losing less weight! training harder.

When is this big secret going to be revealed?

I also think they should change the 45 min. rule into a 15 min. rule.  Wrestlers should be able to get their energy/wind back in 15 min.  If they cannot, maybe they need to think about:  a) losing less weight! training harder.

I was contacted by the KHSAA yesterday and told that the final decision will be made in the middle of June. It is not a big secret, just something that is needed in KY. They asked me not to say anything until it is passed just so we don't count our chickens until they are hatched. Besides this makes good conversation. It is getting people talking about Kentucky Wrestling at a time when nothing is really going on.

I also think they should change the 45 min. rule into a 15 min. rule.  Wrestlers should be able to get their energy/wind back in 15 min.  If they cannot, maybe they need to think about:  a) losing less weight! training harder.

There is a problem with this. Liability.

It's because of the past that regulations are in place now.

Btw, I don't love all the rules personally, but the intent of them is with the wrestlers best interest at heart.

The 45 min. rule didn't really come into play at most of the tournaments that I went to. It took a lot longer than 45 min. to go through a round. At state is the only place I can think of it comes into play but come on we wrestle to like 11 or 12 on the 2nd day how much longer do you want to wrestle? Also the third day it would probably only save you one to two hours at most, I'd rather take those one to two hours and have kids recooperate and feel fresh for their final match of the season. Just my take on the 45 min. thing it wouldn't really change much.

When running a tournament using a program (to save time), the program requires the bout to be submitted before it starts timing the 45 min.  Then it will print the bout only after that 45 min. is up.  So, the tournaments have to take breaks or whatever so the printing can get caught up.  That is why there are always the breaks in tournaments that everyone groans about. 

When running a tournament using a program (to save time), the program requires the bout to be submitted before it starts timing the 45 min.  Then it will print the bout only after that 45 min. is up.  So, the tournaments have to take breaks or whatever so the printing can get caught up.  That is why there are always the breaks in tournaments that everyone groans about. 

i don't know what your talking about groaning. never from me i love the breaks. thats my time to feast hahaha

I also think they should change the 45 min. rule into a 15 min. rule.  Wrestlers should be able to get their energy/wind back in 15 min.  If they cannot, maybe they need to think about:  a) losing less weight! training harder.

There is a problem with this. Liability.

It's because of the past that regulations are in place now.

Btw, I don't love all the rules personally, but the intent of them is with the wrestlers best interest at heart.

you expect a wrestler thats wrestling in a tournament and has already wrestled 3 or 4 matches that day to be ready to wrestle agian after only 15 mins? you would be worn out and wrestle sloppy in your finals match and make a stupid mistake that you wouldnt have made if you were fresh that could have cost you the match.

maybe after your first match they could give the wrestlers X amount of time and then after there next match they would give more time added on to time X from the first match, and then increase the time between matches with each remaning bout

OK. The 45 minute rule is of little concern.  Most tourneys have that much time in between matches naturally.  There is no need to change this rule.  I believe it gives kids just enough time to allow their bodies to recuperate.  Mostly re-hydrating their body, and allowing them time to digest that water. 

This is also not a state rule.  Since it is something that is being considered by our state and not the Wrestling Federation the only thing it can be is.

Allowing coaches to coach their wrestlers after the season is over.  It may only pertain to large tourneys such as nationals and such.  This can be a huge jump for Ky even with these restrictions.

changing the 45 minute rule or the 5-match rule has to come from the Federation. 

Personally I would like the 5-match rule modified.  Maybe allowing a kid to wrestle 15 periods in a day.  Therefore if he wrestled 5 tough matches he is done after 5 matches.  If he receives a forfeit he can still wrestle 5 more matches.  I would recommend this rule and state that a wrestler must have at least 3 periods of eligibility to be allowed to wrestle the next match.

OK. The 45 minute rule is of little concern.  Most tourneys have that much time in between matches naturally.  There is no need to change this rule.  I believe it gives kids just enough time to allow their bodies to recuperate.  Mostly re-hydrating their body, and allowing them time to digest that water. 

This is also not a state rule.  Since it is something that is being considered by our state and not the Wrestling Federation the only thing it can be is.

Allowing coaches to coach their wrestlers after the season is over.  It may only pertain to large tourneys such as nationals and such.  This can be a huge jump for Ky even with these restrictions.

changing the 45 minute rule or the 5-match rule has to come from the Federation. 

Personally I would like the 5-match rule modified.  Maybe allowing a kid to wrestle 15 periods in a day.  Therefore if he wrestled 5 tough matches he is done after 5 matches.  If he receives a forfeit he can still wrestle 5 more matches.  I would recommend this rule and state that a wrestler must have at least 3 periods of eligibility to be allowed to wrestle the next match.

that rule change would make alot of since and I think we should try and get that changed.

OK. The 45 minute rule is of little concern.  Most tourneys have that much time in between matches naturally.  There is no need to change this rule.  I believe it gives kids just enough time to allow their bodies to recuperate.  Mostly re-hydrating their body, and allowing them time to digest that water. 

This is also not a state rule.  Since it is something that is being considered by our state and not the Wrestling Federation the only thing it can be is.

Allowing coaches to coach their wrestlers after the season is over.  It may only pertain to large tourneys such as nationals and such.  This can be a huge jump for Ky even with these restrictions.

changing the 45 minute rule or the 5-match rule has to come from the Federation. 

Personally I would like the 5-match rule modified.  Maybe allowing a kid to wrestle 15 periods in a day.  Therefore if he wrestled 5 tough matches he is done after 5 matches.  If he receives a forfeit he can still wrestle 5 more matches.  I would recommend this rule and state that a wrestler must have at least 3 periods of eligibility to be allowed to wrestle the next match.

5 Match rule idea sounds great.

you expect a wrestler thats wrestling in a tournament and has already wrestled 3 or 4 matches that day to be ready to wrestle agian after only 15 mins? you would be worn out and wrestle sloppy in your finals match and make a stupid mistake that you wouldnt have made if you were fresh that could have cost you the match.

At that age, I wrested a freestyle match, walked off that mat and directly on to another match to wrestle another match.  I also wrestled 8-10 matches in a tournament most weekends (freestyle) and can remember in cadet state having only 15 min. before my finals match.  If the kids work hard enough in practice and eat right, they shouldn't be overly exhausted.  I know as a coach, my wrestlers wrestled many many hard matches in one 3 hour practice.

OK. The 45 minute rule is of little concern.  Most tourneys have that much time in between matches naturally.  There is no need to change this rule.  I believe it gives kids just enough time to allow their bodies to recuperate.  Mostly re-hydrating their body, and allowing them time to digest that water. 

This is also not a state rule.  Since it is something that is being considered by our state and not the Wrestling Federation the only thing it can be is.

Allowing coaches to coach their wrestlers after the season is over.  It may only pertain to large tourneys such as nationals and such.  This can be a huge jump for Ky even with these restrictions.

changing the 45 minute rule or the 5-match rule has to come from the Federation. 

Personally I would like the 5-match rule modified.  Maybe allowing a kid to wrestle 15 periods in a day.  Therefore if he wrestled 5 tough matches he is done after 5 matches.  If he receives a forfeit he can still wrestle 5 more matches.  I would recommend this rule and state that a wrestler must have at least 3 periods of eligibility to be allowed to wrestle the next match.

I have already agreed on the 5 match rule.

However; your understanding of the body's water absorbtion process needs work.  The water starts being absorbed while still in your mouth.  Your body can be completely re-hydrated (unless totally dehydrated at a hospital level) within the 5-10 min. allowing for the 15 min. match rule to work very easily.

I have already agreed on the 5 match rule.

However; your understanding of the body's water absorbtion process needs work.  The water starts being absorbed while still in your mouth.  Your body can be completely re-hydrated (unless totally dehydrated at a hospital level) within the 5-10 min. allowing for the 15 min. match rule to work very easily.

What I was referring to when I made that statement was that the water will stay in the stomach.  Especially if they drink a lot. Remember these are still kids and they do not understand the concept of drinking a little at a time.  They will fill their stomachs up and then end up vomiting on the mat.  Even if it only takes 10 minutes to rehydrate.  They need to get to the water. 

Example. 

Match finishes.

Talk to the coach after the match (3 minutes)

Cool down (Which many wrestlers don't do (5 minutes)

Getting to your warm ups, putting them on and getting the water (2 minutes)

Actually drinking the water (1 minute)

dehydration (10 minutes)

Preparing for the next match (10 minutes)

That is 31 minutes.  This is if the wrestler is in top notch shape and has great discipline.

The rule is made for the kids who are not in top notch shape or have great discipline.

Yes I understand they should be, but reality shows us this is not true in many cases.

All it would take is one kid getting seriously injured because of the 15 minute rule because of dehydration and if it does not kill the sport it would probably kill it in many schools.

I agree that when I wrestled I probably could have done the 15 minute rule.  And did in many freestyle tourneys.  But my guess is that close to 50% of the wrestlers could not in todays wrestling.

As a parent/coach, and a person who loves the sport I will always take the side of caution when it comes to the health of KIDS.  College can to what they want, everyone is an adult.

yea like screw that, why do u want shorter time to rest? i don't get it. i still feel a lil tired after the 45 mins. lets just keep it how it is.

yea like screw that, why do u want shorter time to rest? i don't get it. i still feel a lil tired after the 45 mins. lets just keep it how it is.

After I sit around for a while waiting to wrestle, I get kind of sore.

It really gets rough during state wrestling back for 3rd after loosing second round lol It seemed like I had a match every five minutes. Btw Dinbus, your claims are outrageous, next thing I know your going to argue that your Jesus Christ in the flesh. :roll:

It really gets rough during state wrestling back for 3rd after loosing second round lol It seemed like I had a match every five minutes. Btw Dinbus, your claims are outrageous, next thing I know your going to argue that your Jesus Christ in the flesh. :roll:

Lol. Praise him!

It really gets rough during state wrestling back for 3rd after loosing second round lol It seemed like I had a match every five minutes. Btw Dinbus, your claims are outrageous, next thing I know your going to argue that your Jesus Christ in the flesh. :roll:

:-o, Your ignorance is becoming annoying.

BTW, the state brackets are built so that the person who stays in the winning bracket the longest has the most benefit.

:-o, Your ignorance is becoming annoying.

Your arrogance is far worse.

Your arrogance is far worse.

Dare, those of us that are grown-ups to act like such, and let the foolishness go?

Dare, those of us that are grown-ups to act like such, and let the foolishness go?

Your arrogance is far worse.

:-o, Your ignorance is becoming annoying.

BTW, the state brackets are built so that the person who stays in the winning bracket the longest has the most benefit.

Anyways back to the topic at hand. I would like to see the 5 match rule go away. This is a rule that I think hurts our sport. Kids in the summer wrestler more matches. Yet they are not in the same kind of shape that they are in during the season. It would also help the kids that lose that first match and work their way back through and get into the conso semi's, but they have to forfeit because of the 5 match rule. In the Region 7 tournament, this happened last year.

Anyways back to the topic at hand. I would like to see the 5 match rule go away. This is a rule that I think hurts our sport. Kids in the summer wrestler more matches. Yet they are not in the same kind of shape that they are in during the season. It would also help the kids that lose that first match and work their way back through and get into the conso semi's, but they have to forfeit because of the 5 match rule. In the Region 7 tournament, this happened last year.

1st:  As you said kids in the summer are not in the same kind of shape, nor are they in the same mental shape.  Meaning, they don't give it their all on the mat.  Most kids give 60-80% effort when they wrestlie in summer tourneys. They are there to improve on their wrestling and working on new moves.  Rarely do they use their bread and butter move in a summer tourney unless in the finals or a national tourney.

As for the 5 match rule in a tourney, that is poor planning on the tournament director.  If you know that the 5 match rule may come into play during a tourney then it needs to be made into a 2 day tourney.  I know when I wrestled we had a 2 day tourney for our district tourney (which is now called the regional tourney) and we only had 9 teams is the tourney.  Wrestle one Chanpionship round and one consolation round on Friday and finish it on Saturday.  Situation solved. 

1st:  As you said kids in the summer are not in the same kind of shape, nor are they in the same mental shape.  Meaning, they don't give it their all on the mat.  Most kids give 60-80% effort when they wrestlie in summer tourneys. They are there to improve on their wrestling and working on new moves.  Rarely do they use their bread and butter move in a summer tourney unless in the finals or a national tourney.

As for the 5 match rule in a tourney, that is poor planning on the tournament director.  If you know that the 5 match rule may come into play during a tourney then it needs to be made into a 2 day tourney.  I know when I wrestled we had a 2 day tourney for our district tourney (which is now called the regional tourney) and we only had 9 teams is the tourney.  Wrestle one Chanpionship round and one consolation round on Friday and finish it on Saturday.  Situation solved. 

I understand were your coming from with makin it a 2 day tournament.  What about the teams that travel? With the way budgets are now, I would say about 90% of the teams could not afford to go some where and stay over night.

This is the regional tournament not the state tourney.  How many teams must travel?  It seems that the only region or regions having any trouble are the Lou and Lex teams and they dont't have to travel much.

So, it wouldn't make sense to change the 5 match rule?  I mean, why cost these teams a weekend?  Not to mention the extra action at other tournaments during regular season.  Wouldn't it be nice if, at the Dragon, the person placing 7th/8th wasn't just a first round loser?  Elimination of that rule would allow for this.  You are correct that Tournament Directors could stop the 5 match rule from being a big issue, but for the purpose of all around competition for everyone, eliminating the 5 match rule would be great.  Not to mention the question of why?  Why do we need to limit wrestlers to compete in only 5 matches in one day?  Has there been an issue, since the elimination of dehydration for weight cutting, with someone being so exhausted from 5 matches that it became dangerous for them to wrestle the 6th match?

So, it wouldn't make sense to change the 5 match rule?  I mean, why cost these teams a weekend?  Not to mention the extra action at other tournaments during regular season.  Wouldn't it be nice if, at the Dragon, the person placing 7th/8th wasn't just a first round loser?  Elimination of that rule would allow for this.  You are correct that Tournament Directors could stop the 5 match rule from being a big issue, but for the purpose of all around competition for everyone, eliminating the 5 match rule would be great.  Not to mention the question of why?  Why do we need to limit wrestlers to compete in only 5 matches in one day?  Has there been an issue, since the elimination of dehydration for weight cutting, with someone being so exhausted from 5 matches that it became dangerous for them to wrestle the 6th match?

Most high school sports have some sort of limit on the amount of participation a kid can have.  Baseball I beleive there are rules on how many innings a kid can pitch in a certain number of days so they don't throw their arm out, I believe there are certain limits on Football & Basketball as well.  These rules are there obviously for safety reasons.  If there was not a rule in place, coaches would not have any idea where to draw the line.  So the national federation set the limit at 5 matches.  I wish the limit was bumped up to at least 6 matches, but it isn't.  Does there have to be an incident before this rule makes sense?  I'm sure there are lots of kids out there that could handle more than 5 matches in a day, but there are probably also some kids out there that would drop over dead.  Plus I believe I've read that the more fatigued kids are the more likely it is for injuries to occur.  So increasing the limit to 6 matches or more may increase knee injuries, and stuff like that.  I'm not a doctor or trainer by any stretch of the imagination, so maybe jpizar or someone like that could correct me if I'm wrong on the increased injuries.

Maybe we need to change it to a 1 match rule.  I know when football players come out, they cannot even handle one full match, so we need to consider this so an incident doesn't happen.  Or, maybe it is the coaches responsibility to either get the competitors ready or bench them so they do not get hurt. 

Maybe we need to change it to a 1 match rule.  I know when football players come out, they cannot even handle one full match, so we need to consider this so an incident doesn't happen.  Or, maybe it is the coaches responsibility to either get the competitors ready or bench them so they do not get hurt. 

Coaches are no more qualified to determine how many matches a kid should wrestle in a day than the guy who changes oil in my car.  The 5 match rule was established for kids' safety.  Most coaches would not want that responsiblity either.  They're glad these people called doctors get to make that decision for them.  

I know we all have gone back and fourth on the 5 match rule. I believe this is a rule that the state would NOT be able to change. I think that is a rule that is nation wide. I think the change might have something to do with coaching kids after state.

I know we all have gone back and fourth on the 5 match rule. I believe this is a rule that the state would NOT be able to change. I think that is a rule that is nation wide. I think the change might have something to do with coaching kids after state.

Agreed, and I hope you are right about coaching kids after state.

OK. The 45 minute rule is of little concern.  Most tourneys have that much time in between matches naturally.  There is no need to change this rule.  I believe it gives kids just enough time to allow their bodies to recuperate.  Mostly re-hydrating their body, and allowing them time to digest that water. 

This is also not a state rule.  Since it is something that is being considered by our state and not the Wrestling Federation the only thing it can be is.

Allowing coaches to coach their wrestlers after the season is over.  It may only pertain to large tourneys such as nationals and such.  This can be a huge jump for Ky even with these restrictions.

changing the 45 minute rule or the 5-match rule has to come from the Federation. 

Personally I would like the 5-match rule modified.  Maybe allowing a kid to wrestle 15 periods in a day.  Therefore if he wrestled 5 tough matches he is done after 5 matches.  If he receives a forfeit he can still wrestle 5 more matches.  I would recommend this rule and state that a wrestler must have at least 3 periods of eligibility to be allowed to wrestle the next match.

Exactly my point Pride.  (had to go back a few pages to find where I said this) We kind of got off track, as we usually do. 

The rule against coaches being able to work with their team in off season should be changed. In other states, it's allowed. The high school where my kids first started wrestling was a perennial state champion team in NC. Their head coach organized their camp in the summertime, made all arrangements, and took the entire team on a bus to camp every summer. Not only did it give them great offseason training, but it really built camaraderie.

What is the rule today about what a wrestling coach can do in the off season in Kentucky?  Are they not allowed to coach AT ALL in the off season?  Or is it just during the "black out" period?

What is the rule today about what a wrestling coach can do in the off season in Kentucky?  Are they not allowed to coach AT ALL in the off season?  Or is it just during the "black out" period?

dead period, im pretty sure.

1.  What doctor made the 5 match rule? :roll:

2.  Yes, I never debated whether this was a national or state rule.  I personnaly am not for sure.  I do believe none of you are sure either.

3.  The dead period is observed by all sports in all states.

4.  I have not heard of a state that actually allowed a coach to coach in the off season of any sport.  There are always some restrictions.  Our state restricts our wrestling coaches so that they cannot show moves after season prior to the dead period, but they can run open mats and exercise the competitors.  Our state allows for showing moves after the dead period, but does not allow the use of the wrestling matts.  Yes it would be nice if this was changed as well, but our coaches should be pushing the wrestlers into other sports anyway.  So, if we make this change we are in essence asking wrestling coaches to look out only for wrestling which isn't right and can cause extra joint injuries (wrestling year around will cause this).

1.  What doctor made the 5 match rule? :roll:

2.  Yes, I never debated whether this was a national or state rule.  I personnaly am not for sure.  I do believe none of you are sure either.

3.  The dead period is observed by all sports in all states.

4.  I have not heard of a state that actually allowed a coach to coach in the off season of any sport.  There are always some restrictions.  Our state restricts our wrestling coaches so that they cannot show moves after season prior to the dead period, but they can run open mats and exercise the competitors.  Our state allows for showing moves after the dead period, but does not allow the use of the wrestling matts.  Yes it would be nice if this was changed as well, but our coaches should be pushing the wrestlers into other sports anyway.  So, if we make this change we are in essence asking wrestling coaches to look out only for wrestling which isn't right and can cause extra joint injuries (wrestling year around will cause this).

I think the 5 match rule is a national rule that is dictated by referees insurance or something like that.

National rules are not dictated by ref's insurance.  It may be dictated in the ref's insurance.  I have heard that.  However, that does not make it a national rule.  Again, I am not saying that it is not a national rule.  It very likely is. 

I think the 5 match rule is a national rule that is dictated by referees insurance or something like that.

Thanks, I was told this by a ref too.

I always thought the national rules regarding high school athletics were governed by the NHSCA.

Anyone know if thats correct?

I always thought the national rules regarding high school athletics were governed by the NHSCA.

Anyone know if thats correct?

I thought it was the NFHS - National Federation of State High School Associations.  www.nfhs.org

I don't see the point in the dead period. What does it matter if your coach is teaching you, or someone else?

1.  Too much pressure being put on athletes (especially HS athletes that have more important things to worry about)?

2.  Year round activities increase the chance of injury (wear down of joints, muscle tissues, ligaments, tendons, etc...)?

There are many others, but these are the two most commonly mentioned.

Some Coaches take it to far making it a requirement that their wrestlers participate in his off season programs. Some kids may love it but for those that dont it creates an unfair expectation and Coaches have been known to punish kids who did not participate. I know its hard to believe but these types of Coaches take it the extreme and this rule was put in place to protect against these Coaches.

Its a good rule but for KY, but there need to be amendments to allow Coaches to participate as Coaches for off season tournements. This would improve safety for the kids because it could provide the competency of a Coach in the corner during a match. Many kids are now competing in the off season with noone in the corner or someone who is just an interested person like a parent, friends, basically fans for the kids but not someone with real knowledge of the sport.

Most sports have plenty of parents stepping up in the off season to help out but wrestling is different. There arent many parents with the know how or the interest in becoming educated enough to qualify as a Coash. USAW provides an excellent training program providing different levels of certification for coaching which would greatly help people interested in being involved in off season but very few make use of it.

I thought it was the NFHS - National Federation of State High School Associations.  www.nfhs.org

Your probably right, I couldnt remember the exact name but NFHS sounds correct.

Some Coaches take it to far making it a requirement that their wrestlers participate in his off season programs. Some kids may love it but for those that dont it creates an unfair expectation and Coaches have been known to punish kids who did not participate. I know its hard to believe but these types of Coaches take it the extreme and this rule was put in place to protect against these Coaches.

Its a good rule but for KY, but there need to be amendments to allow Coaches to participate as Coaches for off season tournements. This would improve safety for the kids because it could provide the competency of a Coach in the corner during a match. Many kids are now competing in the off season with noone in the corner or someone who is just an interested person like a parent, friends, basically fans for the kids but not someone with real knowledge of the sport.

Most sports have plenty of parents stepping up in the off season to help out but wrestling is different. There arent many parents with the know how or the interest in becoming educated enough to qualify as a Coash. USAW provides an excellent training program providing different levels of certification for coaching which would greatly help people interested in being involved in off season but very few make use of it.

EvilleDad, I absolutely agree with you. It's frustrating that kids who want to compete in the offseason don't have a knowledgeable coach in their corner. So they don't learn as much as they could and take a safety risk, too. It also makes it hard to build team spirit because it's up to the parents to organize off-season activities, which leads me back to the point I made earlier.

4.  I have not heard of a state that actually allowed a coach to coach in the off season of any sport. 

Dinubus, you haven't heard of the state of North Carolina then. Thead coach at Cary High School arranged for the team to go to camp, collected the money from all the parents, and took his team to camp on a bus to Appalachian State University, where he coached the boys as they participated in the camp. I personally received his e-mails, sent him money, and watched him load all the boys onto the bus. And after we moved here, we continued to send our son to his camp because Eastern didn't have the same kind of program. We watched the coach work with the boys at the last day tournament, and we saw other coaches there from NC high schools, as well as ones from GA and FL and who knows where else. We were surprised and disappointed to find that Eastern's coach couldn't do the same kind of thing. So it is different in other states.

Ok where can we find this information?

What exactly can a coach do and what exactly can he not do?

I know that I violated whatever the rules were while coaching at Holmes.  Mostly because I was not informed about them nor really worried about them.  (No one was watching what I was doing at such a low level school)

However I am now going to return to Campbell and coach my son.  I'm pretty sure I have NO restriction about my son.  I can't imagine that I would not be allowed to coach my own son.  However what about his buddies?  This year his buddies are still in middle school but next year they will be high school kids. 

Like many of you have stated this is ridiculous.  How do you allow a untrained or at the very best undertrained person sit in the corner of a wrestling match in the off season? 

My next question what is the ramifications if this rule is violated? 

I fully understand what Dinubus was saying and agree.  But most wrestling coaches are not like football coaches.  Many of them are fanatical, and would require off season training, and limit the kids ability to play other sports.  I don't think wresting coaches (at least in Ky) are like this. 

Ok where can we find this information?

What exactly can a coach do and what exactly can he not do?

Check out the KHSAA.org website.  Go to the handbook and take a look at Bylaws 25 and 26.  I think this is in the process of being modified to allow more coach involvement during the offseason.  Good luck.

Ok where can we find this information?

What exactly can a coach do and what exactly can he not do?

I know that I violated whatever the rules were while coaching at Holmes.  Mostly because I was not informed about them nor really worried about them.  (No one was watching what I was doing at such a low level school)

However I am now going to return to Campbell and coach my son.  I'm pretty sure I have NO restriction about my son.  I can't imagine that I would not be allowed to coach my own son.  However what about his buddies?  This year his buddies are still in middle school but next year they will be high school kids. 

Like many of you have stated this is ridiculous.  How do you allow a untrained or at the very best undertrained person sit in the corner of a wrestling match in the off season? 

My next question what is the ramifications if this rule is violated? 

I fully understand what Dinubus was saying and agree.  But most wrestling coaches are not like football coaches.  Many of them are fanatical, and would require off season training, and limit the kids ability to play other sports.  I don't think wresting coaches (at least in Ky) are like this. 

In other sports I remember it working like this, you could coach your own son or daughter in a team sport, but I think there is still a dead period that coaches arent allowed to be around any of their own players. I think in wrestling you could manage the group as a team and allow you to coach the entire group as long as they are on the same team as your son or daughter.

When you say you dont think wrestling coaches are not fanatical like other sports, I tend to agree. But I have seen fanatical wrestling coaches too and it only takes one fanatical coach and the situation changes and requires the kind of rule that is in place now. I agree with the rule for the reason it was intended, but I too would like to see it amended. But even as it is now coaches find ways around it, they coach everyone but their own kids and ask other coaches to help with their kids.

Kentucky just really suffers because there aren't enough qualified coaches for the high schools let alone for off season wrestling. So when a qualified HS Coach is willing to go the extra mile for off season coaching and then isnt allowed to work with his own kids and there is no other qualified coaches to step up, it makes it bad.

I dont know what the answer is but I hope they figure something out!

4.  I have not heard of a state that actually allowed a coach to coach in the off season of any sport. 

Dinubus, you haven't heard of the state of North Carolina then. Thead coach at Cary High School arranged for the team to go to camp, collected the money from all the parents, and took his team to camp on a bus to Appalachian State University, where he coached the boys as they participated in the camp. I personally received his e-mails, sent him money, and watched him load all the boys onto the bus. And after we moved here, we continued to send our son to his camp because Eastern didn't have the same kind of program. We watched the coach work with the boys at the last day tournament, and we saw other coaches there from NC high schools, as well as ones from GA and FL and who knows where else. We were surprised and disappointed to find that Eastern's coach couldn't do the same kind of thing. So it is different in other states.

Coaches in KY can take kids to camps and be there for them at wrestling camps.  They would not be showing the moves or "coaching" them, rather; they would be acting as an adult supervisor and trying to learn themselves.  Look more at the rule rather than trying to go agains thwat I have stated.  NC doesn't allow the coaches to "coach" in the off-season.  Sorry!

Ok where can we find this information?

What exactly can a coach do and what exactly can he not do?

I know that I violated whatever the rules were while coaching at Holmes.  Mostly because I was not informed about them nor really worried about them.  (No one was watching what I was doing at such a low level school)

However I am now going to return to Campbell and coach my son.  I'm pretty sure I have NO restriction about my son.  I can't imagine that I would not be allowed to coach my own son.  However what about his buddies?  This year his buddies are still in middle school but next year they will be high school kids. 

Like many of you have stated this is ridiculous.  How do you allow a untrained or at the very best undertrained person sit in the corner of a wrestling match in the off season? 

My next question what is the ramifications if this rule is violated? 

I fully understand what Dinubus was saying and agree.  But most wrestling coaches are not like football coaches.  Many of them are fanatical, and would require off season training, and limit the kids ability to play other sports.  I don't think wresting coaches (at least in Ky) are like this. 

You are correct, you can coach your son.  You can show him whatever you desire and whomever may be watching can learn if they so desire.  However, I would not sit in the corner at a tournament by any other kids besides my own.  That is where you would cross the line and get in trouble.

I agree with what you are saying and think it best benefits the wrestlers to have a qualified coach in the corner.  We can also look at the positive of this current situation that the wrestlers can use this mat time as a learning experience.  I remember wrestling in summer tournaments without the pressure of my coach watching and learning from the things I did right and from the mistakes I made.  I believe smart wrestlers can gain much needed knowledge by wrestling without a coach in the corner.  This statement is mostly geared towards high school aged wrestlers.

So any new updates on what the rule change is going to be?

I don't see the point in the dead period. What does it matter if your coach is teaching you, or someone else?

I think some people are confusing the off season, which begins immediately after the season ends and continues until June 1st. During this time a coach cannot directly give instruction but they can have team workouts or conditioning. The dead period is a 2 week window that occurs before the start of practice for fall sports. During this time all coaches are required to have no contact with players. If we did not have a dead period there are large amount of kids that would never have a summer break of any sort because they would be practicing.