If more of you all would have went to Fargo, you would laugh at the pressure of state!  It is a great trip and a shame that only 3 wrestlers from Kentucky were able to man up and go and only two of which went Junior.

:roll: 

If more of you all would have went to Fargo, you would laugh at the pressure of state! 

Wow the more I hear statements like these the more irritated I get.

1.  No matter if you went to Fargo or not there would still be more pressure at state than Fargo.  Being a state champion is the ultimate goal of high school wrestlers. 

2.  How is it pressure going to a summer tourney that means nothing.  (Before you ask no I have never been to Fargo)  As a wrestler I went to many many large tourneys, but never felt any pressure from summer tourneys.  That includes the Jr. Olympic Tourney and the AAU nationals. (The state tourney was still more exciting because that was the most important Tourney).

It is a great trip and a shame that only 3 wrestlers from Kentucky were able to man up and go and only two of which went Junior.

1.  With trips like this it is NOT the wrestler's decision to go to these tourneys.  It is the decision of the parents.  They must schedule vacations around these tourneys and come up with the money for entry fee's, food and travel costs. 

2.  It's would not be real hard to "man up" and go to one of these tourneys and go 2 and out.  All but our (KY) top tier wrestlers would do just this. 

As a side note.

Those parents who have taken the time and money to send their wrestlers to these tourneys I applaud you.  you and your family have made great sacrifices to your wrestling child or children. I also applaud any non wrestling siblings of these wrestlers who have also sacrificed for their wrestling brother.

Om, yeah, check out the charts!  What tournament did you ever go to that had 76 wrestlers in your weight class on your chart?  Fahy's chart for Cadet Nationals out at Fargo has that many kids on it.  When I went to Junior Nationals back in 94, I had 156 kids on my bracket (132 lbs).  I'm sure the 135 lbs bracket will be similar this year.  So, please don't even talk when you have never been!

Oh, and by the way, any high school kid that places a higher importance on a state championship than being an ALL AMERICAN, must be in special needs classes.  Not to mention that a KY state champion will get picked over by any D1 school when compared to any and all All Americans!

I am a state champion and I would would give that moment away 10 out of 10 times to be at the top of the podium at the Junior division at Fargo!

I think that a lot depends on the kid.  Many kids have no intention of wrestling beyond high school.  So to them their goals are typically set on the state level and helping their teammates and friends.  Not that they wouldn't love to be and all american, but that is not where their priority is set.  I'm not sure how that makes them a special needs student, but dinubus is the genius around here.  And I'm not sure why numbers are all that important or add that much pressure to the event.  Fargo is a big deal because it is Fargo, a nationally recognized major event.  If half of the kids didn't show up (the weaker half) it would still be a big deal because of the competition that shows up year in and year out.

Wow the more I hear statements like these the more irritated I get.

1.  No matter if you went to Fargo or not there would still be more pressure at state than Fargo.  Being a state champion is the ultimate goal of high school wrestlers. 

2.  How is it pressure going to a summer tourney that means nothing.  (Before you ask no I have never been to Fargo)  As a wrestler I went to many many large tourneys, but never felt any pressure from summer tourneys.  That includes the Jr. Olympic Tourney and the AAU nationals. (The state tourney was still more exciting because that was the most important Tourney).

1.  With trips like this it is NOT the wrestler's decision to go to these tourneys.  It is the decision of the parents.  They must schedule vacations around these tourneys and come up with the money for entry fee's, food and travel costs. 

2.  It's would not be real hard to "man up" and go to one of these tourneys and go 2 and out.  All but our (KY) top tier wrestlers would do just this. 

As a side note.

Those parents who have taken the time and money to send their wrestlers to these tourneys I applaud you.  you and your family have made great sacrifices to your wrestling child or children. I also applaud any non wrestling siblings of these wrestlers who have also sacrificed for their wrestling brother.

Wow you must be crazy, let me see do i want to win a state championship? Or do i want to be an All American?  thats a no brainer.  I had the opportunity to go to fargo and let me tell you it was easily the best wrestling experience of my life and i won a state championship. 

I don't think goo was trying to say that anyone would simply pick the state championship over being an all american, but how many really have the shot at being an AA.  Add that to the cost and support issues.  Not to mention Fargo is a completely different story.  We're not talking about folkstyle, that is greco and freestyle.  Many of our best kids have little to no exposure to those styles of wrestling.

Aww, you are just upset because he sided with me making your sad attempt to talk down what I have said worthless.  So sorry there Ranger!  Oh, and if that is all your head coaches team desires, that is fine, but to better the sport in Kentucky, we probably should start trying to set their sights higher.

I cant see how Robbie Sahms could beat Patrick Bunch (6th at 145) and be ranked so low at 140

As suprised as I am by his massive gain in weight, It has at least all been muscle. Robbie and I, we are skin and bones with some muscle thrown for weight

I don't think goo was trying to say that anyone would simply pick the state championship over being an all american, but how many really have the shot at being an AA.  Add that to the cost and support issues.  Not to mention Fargo is a completely different story.  We're not talking about folkstyle, that is greco and freestyle.  Many of our best kids have little to no exposure to those styles of wrestling.

I'm not saying every kid in KY should go, however there are some kids that could benefit greatly from the experience.  Fargo will really open a kids eyes and make them want to work that much harder.  you cant let money issues stand in the way of that, i was one of the poorest kids in school.  yet through frank gercak i got to go for very little money.  there are people and there are ways out there, for kids to experience this phenomenal event. Thats my two cents anyway.

Ahh as usual you missed my point totally. 

What I was trying to point out was that you were downgrading Ky wrestlers. 

During my career as a wrestler my parents offered to forfeit our vacation so that I could go to some national tournaments.  I choose not to because it was not fair to my sisters.  Why should they suffer through a huge wrestling tourney instead of vacationing on a beach or somewhere.

As Ranger pointed out many wrestlers have no aspirations past high school.  Many plan to graduate go to college and make something of themselves.  This is the route i choose.  I had opportunities to wrestle in collage but choose not to because my education was much more important. 

Everyone makes what they want out of wrestling and any sport they play.  Don't down grade them because they or their family does not live and die wrestling. 

As for my own.  If Jr. wants to go to one of these tourneys we will see if it fits into our budget, and we would have to see how it affects his sister also.  We neither can afford nor want to favor one child over the other.

I had opportunities to wrestle in collage but choose not to because my education was much more important. 

As was stated earlier, it doesn't have to be too expensive if you look for sponsorship.  That can be on the kid.  9 times out of 10 local businesses will say yes to sponsoring an athlete trying to attend a National event!  Oh, and why can the sister and family still take their vacation?  They can be on the beach while you wrestle.  When I went, my family couldn't afford to be there with me.  So, it doesn't take anything away from any other member of the family, thus this is all a cop-out. 

Where you are right, though, is that too many KY wrestlers do not look to wrestle after HS.  This is why KY is having a hard time growing in the sport.  If you desire for the sport to grow in the state of KY, for colleges to pick it up  in the state of KY, then you must help our kids to realize they are good enough to compete in college.  This tournament is not only good for exposure and helping our kids get past the mental aspect, but it is also good for in state colleges to realize, hey - if we pick up wrestling as a sport, we might be able to compete!

Ahh as usual you missed my point totally. 

What I was trying to point out was that you were downgrading Ky wrestlers. 

During my career as a wrestler my parents offered to forfeit our vacation so that I could go to some national tournaments.  I choose not to because it was not fair to my sisters.  Why should they suffer through a huge wrestling tourney instead of vacationing on a beach or somewhere.

As Ranger pointed out many wrestlers have no aspirations past high school.  Many plan to graduate go to college and make something of themselves.  This is the route i choose.  I had opportunities to wrestle in collage but choose not to because my education was much more important. 

Everyone makes what they want out of wrestling and any sport they play.  Don't down grade them because they or their family does not live and die wrestling. 

As for my own.  If Jr. wants to go to one of these tourneys we will see if it fits into our budget, and we would have to see how it affects his sister also.  We neither can afford nor want to favor one child over the other.

I'm sorry but i don't see your point at all, i don't mean to be rude to anyone, But i honestly don't know how you justify your response.  What do you mean by downgrading KY wrestlers?  There are more kids in KY that SHOULD have went, they have the ability to make noise, and i know some of them would love to wrestle in college.  Another point, if more kids go the cheaper it is on all of them.  Take Ohio for instance, they get a total package warm ups, singlets, shirts etc.  Because they have so many kids going, not positive on the price but i heard it wasn't as much as i spent which wasn't much.  the point i am trying to make to you is that, there isn't one person on this site who doesn't want to see KY wrestling succeed, things like Fargo, and NHSCA nationals and are the way to do it.  Once again not every kid in the state can or wants to do this but more SHOULD.  So i dont see how that is downgrading KY wrestlers, it should motivate them and make them open their eyes to more opportunities that are laid in front of them.

Oh, and by the way, any high school kid that places a higher importance on a state championship than being an ALL AMERICAN, must be in special needs classes.  Not to mention that a KY state champion will get picked over by any D1 school when compared to any and all All Americans!

I am a state champion and I would would give that moment away 10 out of 10 times to be at the top of the podium at the Junior division at Fargo!

You're the special one dinubus.  Most people would not trade away that state title moment for anything.  I agree with you that colleges will look at that AA status over being a Ky state champ any day of the week and twice on Sunday.  But how many high school kids would skip the state tournament their senior year to go wrestle at Fargo?  I'd say very, very few.  You'd probably be looking at 8 man brackets if every kid that went to Fargo had to do this.  Is it the best possible move a kid could make "career" wise, probably not.  But not many kids would skip state to go to Fargo. 

You're the special one dinubus.  Most people would not trade away that state title moment for anything.  I agree with you that colleges will look at that AA status over being a Ky state champ any day of the week and twice on Sunday.  But how many high school kids would skip the state tournament their senior year to go wrestle at Fargo?  I'd say very, very few.  You'd probably be looking at 8 man brackets if every kid that went to Fargo had to do this.  Is it the best possible move a kid could make "career" wise, probably not.  But not many kids would skip state to go to Fargo. 

Yeah because kids would rather be a state champion than an all american, highly doubtful.  You can sell that line to someone else buddy, because im not buying it.

Yeah because kids would rather be a state champion than an all american, highly doubtful.  You can sell that line to someone else buddy, because im not buying it.

Not at all buddy.  Let me see if I can get you to buy this.  Do you think many kids, if given the choice, between wrestling in their state tournament their senior year or Fargo would go to Fargo?  I'd say the vast majority of kids are high school athletes before they aspire to be all americans.  USAW & AAU would never be able to compete with high school wrestling.  MOST kids, not all, but most kids are more into high school wrestling than freestyle & greco.  You'll have kids that say they like FS/GR more, but if they had to choose between that and high school wrestling, I'd say most kids would choose high school wrestling.

Ok, if we can agree on that, then I say kids would rather wrestle in their high school state tournament than take a chance on being a freestyle all american.  Therefore, I think the state tournament means more to most kids than does Fargo.  I seen a Ken Chertow video one time where he explicitly says that winning a high school state title was the most "satisfying" experience of his high school career.  I believe he was a 2X Fargo champion and an OW to boot.  Yet, he stated that his most satisfying experience in high school wrestling was winning state. 

Not at all buddy.  Let me see if I can get you to buy this.  Do you think many kids, if given the choice, between wrestling in their state tournament their senior year or Fargo would go to Fargo?  I'd say the vast majority of kids are high school athletes before they aspire to be all americans.  USAW & AAU would never be able to compete with high school wrestling.  MOST kids, not all, but most kids are more into high school wrestling than freestyle & greco.  You'll have kids that say they like FS/GR more, but if they had to choose between that and high school wrestling, I'd say most kids would choose high school wrestling.

Ok, if we can agree on that, then I say kids would rather wrestle in their high school state tournament than take a chance on being a freestyle all american.  Therefore, I think the state tournament means more to most kids than does Fargo.  I seen a Ken Chertow video one time where he explicitly says that winning a high school state title was the most "satisfying" experience of his high school career.  I believe he was a 2X Fargo champion and an OW to boot.  Yet, he stated that his most satisfying experience in high school wrestling was winning state. 

Ok call me crazy but the last i checked being an AA was a higher feat than being a state champion.  Thats the end of it period, and fargo has always followed every state championship in the US so kids dont have to choose between the two.  And if you REALLY want to get picky greco was the first form of wrestling, it just so happened to get molded into what we have today (which is great) yet it wouldnt hurt kids to practice and compete what made what we have today.  So maybe i am crazy, but i know for a fact many people think the way i do.  But this really isnt worth arguing over. The point i wanted to get across was that more KY wrestlers should go to tournaments of this caliber to really see what the best is.  Trust me they would leave fargo dome with a totally different aspect of the sport and have a great time.

Not at all buddy.  Let me see if I can get you to buy this.  Do you think many kids, if given the choice, between wrestling in their state tournament their senior year or Fargo would go to Fargo?  I'd say the vast majority of kids are high school athletes before they aspire to be all americans.  USAW & AAU would never be able to compete with high school wrestling.  MOST kids, not all, but most kids are more into high school wrestling than freestyle & greco.  You'll have kids that say they like FS/GR more, but if they had to choose between that and high school wrestling, I'd say most kids would choose high school wrestling.

Ok, if we can agree on that, then I say kids would rather wrestle in their high school state tournament than take a chance on being a freestyle all american.  Therefore, I think the state tournament means more to most kids than does Fargo.  I seen a Ken Chertow video one time where he explicitly says that winning a high school state title was the most "satisfying" experience of his high school career.  I believe he was a 2X Fargo champion and an OW to boot.  Yet, he stated that his most satisfying experience in high school wrestling was winning state. 

1.  There are many, many, many, many, many more USA/AAU wrestlers than there are High School wrestlers.  Many wrestlers start off with USA when they are 4 y/o or there about.

2.  If you look at Europe, you can see FILA wrestling continued and there is no such thing as HS wrestling.

So, sorry, you are wrong again - GURU

I thought this was a thread about high school rankings for next year...Interesting discussion you all are having, but not necessarily pertinent to the thread.

1.  There are many, many, many, many, many more USA/AAU wrestlers than there are High School wrestlers.  Many wrestlers start off with USA when they are 4 y/o or there about.

2.  If you look at Europe, you can see FILA wrestling continued and there is no such thing as HS wrestling.

So, sorry, you are wrong again - GURU

Anyone can take statistics and make it fit their argument.

Using your stats. Of the kids who attend high school in the United States. I would guess that more wrestle high school than USA/AAU. With that said, it proves nothing.

I would say this however.  If a kid tells his buddies that he is an All American.  I would bet that his buddies would say "Cool what school did you wrestle for?"  and eventually ask him is he was a state champion. 

This is why (Going back to my original argument) I believe that a kid would feel more pressure at the state tourney than at Fargo or any other big tourney like this.

The number of kids in your bracket is not what is intimidating, its what winning the tournament means. 

I bet if a wrestler won the Beast of the East but did not win his state title, he would feel disappointed with his season, whereas if he lost in the Beast of the East but won his state title he would not be disappointed with his season.

Anyone can take statistics and make it fit their argument.

Using your stats. Of the kids who attend high school in the United States. I would guess that more wrestle high school than USA/AAU. With that said, it proves nothing.

 

What?????????  Again, many more wrestlers compete in USA/AAU prior to ever getting involved in HS wrestling, some never even do get involved in HS wrestling, and most HS wrestlers that want to be decent who had already competed in USA/AAU gets involved in it.  Looking at the numbers, there are soooooooooo many more USA/AAU wrestlers than HS wrestlers.  Then take in to the understanding other countries wrestlers, and the fact that our folkstyle wrestlers are now getting smoked at the Olympics by countries much smaller than ours, shows that FILA (or USA/AAU style wrestling) produces the better competitor.

I would say this however.  If a kid tells his buddies that he is an All American.  I would bet that his buddies would say "Cool what school did you wrestle for?"  and eventually ask him is he was a state champion. 

This is why (Going back to my original argument) I believe that a kid would feel more pressure at the state tourney than at Fargo or any other big tourney like this.

The number of kids in your bracket is not what is intimidating, its what winning the tournament means. 

I bet if a wrestler won the Beast of the East but did not win his state title, he would feel disappointed with his season, whereas if he lost in the Beast of the East but won his state title he would not be disappointed with his season.

Bad argument.  That same All American would get many scolarship offers (most of which would be full rides).  How many KY State champions get that?  Hmmm. 

Oh, and, the number on the bracket is the initial intimidation, then name recognition, then the full wear and tear of trying to just work through such a huge bracket while wrestling such high calaber competition that you will never see in any one state or state tournament.  So, again, your argument is weak.  Sorry, not trying to cut you down.

Here is my last question.

Which is more true?

High school wrestlers wrestle AAU/USA to become better high school wrestlers.

or

AAU/USA wrestlers wrestle high school to become better AAU/USA wrestlers.

Once again most high schoolers are not looking for scholarships.  They just want to wrestle. 

I like many other wrestlers didn't care how I would match up in Freestyle or Greco Roman style wrestling.  I did it because it was kind of fun and made me a better high school wrestler.  As we have seen by many many posts.  High school wrestlers don't take summer wrestling seriously.  They don't train as hard nor work as hard on the mat as they do when high school wrestling is going on.

I'm not saying those that go to these tourneys are crazy or anything.  I just don't believe that those who do not go should be criticized for not going. 

My Jr. doesn't just wrestle he plays football, baseball, track and golf.  Will he be the greatest at any of these?  Probably not, but he is having a great time being a kid.  He will earn his diploma, hopefully earn a scholarship for education (which is much easier than a sports scholarship), go to collage, raise a family and have kids who will be involved in sports much like himself.

parents and coaches get to involved in the "ONE SPORT WONDER".  This hurts high school sports.  Wresting is one that is being hurt the most because of this.  Football, track, and baseball players don't wrestle because they want to be one sport wonders in their preferred sport. 

Either way you feel about this.  This post has opened the eyes of many and they can make their own choice. 

The GOO over and out.

Live long and prosper.  :-D :mrgreen:

Actually, some of the best athletes compete in more than one sport.  While coaching, I always pushed my wrestlers to compete in more than just wrestling.  I felt that football and soccer were good sports that complement with wrestling and that cross-country was great to improve endurance in wrestling.  I also encouraged them to either go out for track and field or compete in freestyle/greco.  Many multi-sport athletes achieve and obtain scholarships (again, not a good argument on your part).  Finally, I was a "ONE SPORT WONDER" as you put it and I loved every minute of it!  I couldn't have asked for a better childhood!

Finally, you spelled college as "collage" for the second time.  I misspell words all the time, but they typically are not the same exact word every time, so I figured I would help you out here.

 sorry I think a combo of both would be beneficial to the athlete, because you are forgetting one BIG  thing, winning a State Title is good for the Athlete, for all  his hard work, and sacrifice, to be honored with a title in front of HIS home town and His Home STATE peers, which is important, and out of state competition to rank himself or herself , so you need both, which can be achieved WITHOUT bashing one or the other, sure there is  quality competition in the USA/AAU but there is also great competition in  KY we have to step up and keep people from saying these negative things and remember some future  State Champ, and All American is being born right now and will be walking the halls of a SCHOOL and with a quality run program at the SCHOOL it could lead to bigger and better things like watching on ESPN a FORMER KY STATE CHAMP AND ALL AMERICAN wrestling for a NCAA championship, and that is what we all want for our wrestlers and for Ky

1. There are many, many, many, many, many more USA/AAU wrestlers than there are High School wrestlers.  Many wrestlers start off with USA when they are 4 y/o or there about.2.  If you look at Europe, you can see FILA wrestling continued and there is no such thing as HS wrestling.

So, sorry, you are wrong again - GURU

:-D :-D :-D

That I am Dinibus!  I misspoke in my post when I said "but most kids are more into high school wrestling than freestyle & greco", and you called me on it good job man.  I didn't think I had to explicitly say "most HIGH SCHOOL aged kids are more into HIGH SCHOOL wrestling than freestyle & greco", I thought it would be understood that I was not including 4 year old kids when talking about high school wrestling since a 4 year old kid can not wrestle in high school state.  If you include all USAW/AAU card holders, aged 4-100, you got me there are probably more.  But there are not more high schol aged kids wrestling fs/gr in this country than there are high school aged kids wrestling folkstyle.  It's not even close, don't try to argue.  I don't care about Europe, that's irrelevant because those kids can not wrestle in our high school states.

Ok so hopefully we are clear on that.  You said "any high school kid that places a higher importance on a state championship than being an ALL AMERICAN, must be in special needs classes", I'd say being an All American is more prestigious but most high school kids want to be a state champ first.  Most high school aged wrestlers have a goal of being a state champ with a fargo AA being icing on the cake.  My point in my original response to you was if they had to choose between the 2, they would not skip their state tournament to go to Fargo.  Most kids are shooting for a state title.  I'm not saying what is harder or what will earn them a scholarship.  I'm saying what is more important to a high school aged wrestler.  I know you'll have some sort of rebuttal, if you do, fine you win we just can't agree.

Finally, you spelled college as "collage" for the second time.  I misspell words all the time, but they typically are not the same exact word every time, so I figured I would help you out here.

I believe that is my most misspelled word.  (I also have touble with the word "the" it comes out "teh") My fingers just don't want to spell it correctly and spell check doesn't find it.  Maybe I will just start using university.  Like when porky pig can't say a certain word he changes it.  :-D

Thats all folks.

:-D :-D :-D

That I am Dinibus!  I misspoke in my post when I said "but most kids are more into high school wrestling than freestyle & greco", and you called me on it good job man.  I didn't think I had to explicitly say "most HIGH SCHOOL aged kids are more into HIGH SCHOOL wrestling than freestyle & greco", I thought it would be understood that I was not including 4 year old kids when talking about high school wrestling since a 4 year old kid can not wrestle in high school state.  If you include all USAW/AAU card holders, aged 4-100, you got me there are probably more.  But there are not more high schol aged kids wrestling fs/gr in this country than there are high school aged kids wrestling folkstyle.  It's not even close, don't try to argue.  I don't care about Europe, that's irrelevant because those kids can not wrestle in our high school states.

Ok so hopefully we are clear on that.  You said "any high school kid that places a higher importance on a state championship than being an ALL AMERICAN, must be in special needs classes", I'd say being an All American is more prestigious but most high school kids want to be a state champ first.  Most high school aged wrestlers have a goal of being a state champ with a fargo AA being icing on the cake.  My point in my original response to you was if they had to choose between the 2, they would not skip their state tournament to go to Fargo.  Most kids are shooting for a state title.  I'm not saying what is harder or what will earn them a scholarship.  I'm saying what is more important to a high school aged wrestler.  I know you'll have some sort of rebuttal, if you do, fine you win we just can't agree.

I don't know why I bother with you and you cannot seem to comprehend, but after reading this post I had a question.  Who asked any kid to skip the state tournament in order to wrestle at Fargo?  I don't get your logic.  Sorry.

I believe that is my most misspelled word.  (I also have touble with the word "the" it comes out "teh") My fingers just don't want to spell it correctly and spell check doesn't find it.  Maybe I will just start using university.  Like when porky pig can't say a certain word he changes it.  :-D

Thats all folks.

I do the "teh" thing all the time too.  My fingers just cannot seem to get it right when I am trying to type something fast.

I don't know why I bother with you and you cannot seem to comprehend, but after reading this post I had a question.  Who asked any kid to skip the state tournament in order to wrestle at Fargo?  I don't get your logic.  Sorry.

The feeling is very mutual.  Apparently you can't comprehend, please re-read my posts on this thread.  It's all there you can figure it out.  Maybe get your kids to help you understand the big words.

So, what you are really saying is:

I'm not even sure I know what I am talking about.

Thats okay, we all already knew that.  :wink:

If you really want to get more kids to attend these type of tourneys then one major obstacle must be removed.

That obstacle is the rule about high school coaches not coaching their athletes in the summer.  If Ky high school coaches could attend and coach kids on their team I truly believe there would be more Ky kids at these tourneys.

One reason this would happen is because these coaches would help set up these kids with transportation and information on these tourneys. 

Even though I may disagree with the importance of these tourneys, I would still like Ky kids to have easier access to these tourneys.

If you really want to get more kids to attend these type of tourneys then one major obstacle must be removed.

That obstacle is the rule about high school coaches not coaching their athletes in the summer.  If Ky high school coaches could attend and coach kids on their team I truly believe there would be more Ky kids at these tourneys.

One reason this would happen is because these coaches would help set up these kids with transportation and information on these tourneys. 

Even though I may disagree with the importance of these tourneys, I would still like Ky kids to have easier access to these tourneys.

Both an excellent and very valid point there GOO.  As for the whole "would a kid rather be a state champ or an AA", well I think that would depend on the individual and can't be just a generalized point.  If a kid knew he had no shot at being an AA at Fargo or wherever, but knew he had a shot to be a state champ, obviously I think they would choose being a state champ.  However, if a kid had already won a state championship, was truly looking to make a name for himself, looking to attract attention from major college coaches and / or also thought they had a shot at placing at a large national tournament, I think they would choose being an AA.  I think when most kids start wrestling and eventually make their way to high school, being a state champ would foremost in their mind.  However, as a kid begins to notice their potential or lack there of, that's when the aspirations of being more than just a state champ or not begin to take priority and things like being an AA at a major tournament or obtaining that college scholarship for wrestling become more important.  If I had to say which one "most" kids would rather be, I would say most would rather be a state champ because they don't have any aspirations beyond high school wrestling.  But there are those few who want more and being an AA is what they would rather be.  I think the same thing holds true for other kids who play other sports.  When kids 1st start out playing football or whatever, they can't wait to play on their high school team.  Once they realize their potential, they start thinking bigger like all-state, then maybe college scholarship.  If they get that college scholarship, they begin thinking of starting for their college team, then making all-conference, etc.  If they excel at that next level then dreams and hopes of playing professional start to take priority.  Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my opinion anyway.

If you really want to get more kids to attend these type of tourneys then one major obstacle must be removed.

That obstacle is the rule about high school coaches not coaching their athletes in the summer.  If Ky high school coaches could attend and coach kids on their team I truly believe there would be more Ky kids at these tourneys.

One reason this would happen is because these coaches would help set up these kids with transportation and information on these tourneys. 

Even though I may disagree with the importance of these tourneys, I would still like Ky kids to have easier access to these tourneys.

That same rule exists in all the other states as well.  Why should KY be different?  What makes it toware we are weaker and cannot get these things done when they are dealing with the same rules?  We can and will succeed when we push for more summer tournaments, more organization in USA wrestling within the state, urge more parents who seem quite willing to work during season to work out of season with our competitors...

Both an excellent and very valid point there GOO.  As for the whole "would a kid rather be a state champ or an AA", well I think that would depend on the individual and can't be just a generalized point.  If a kid knew he had no shot at being an AA at Fargo or wherever, but knew he had a shot to be a state champ, obviously I think they would choose being a state champ.  However, if a kid had already won a state championship, was truly looking to make a name for himself, looking to attract attention from major college coaches and / or also thought they had a shot at placing at a large national tournament, I think they would choose being an AA.  I think when most kids start wrestling and eventually make their way to high school, being a state champ would foremost in their mind.  However, as a kid begins to notice their potential or lack there of, that's when the aspirations of being more than just a state champ or not begin to take priority and things like being an AA at a major tournament or obtaining that college scholarship for wrestling become more important.  If I had to say which one "most" kids would rather be, I would say most would rather be a state champ because they don't have any aspirations beyond high school wrestling.  But there are those few who want more and being an AA is what they would rather be.  I think the same thing holds true for other kids who play other sports.  When kids 1st start out playing football or whatever, they can't wait to play on their high school team.  Once they realize their potential, they start thinking bigger like all-state, then maybe college scholarship.  If they get that college scholarship, they begin thinking of starting for their college team, then making all-conference, etc.  If they excel at that next level then dreams and hopes of playing professional start to take priority.  Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my opinion anyway.

I don't know because I was never like most kids, but I do know that most of the kids I competed against while in high school had high hopes and dreams and all desired to be on the team Michigan to go to Fargo and other trips.  Since each weight class allowed for 4 spots, there were always plenty with alternates.  Of course, I look at the roster now and see that Michigan has far fewer athletes than in the past.  This could be attributed to the fact that everyone is moving out of MI during this economy, to that disaster of a league called Myway, or (and I won't believe this one) to the lack in desire in todays youth.

That same rule exists in all the other states as well.  Why should KY be different?  What makes it toware we are weaker and cannot get these things done when they are dealing with the same rules?  We can and will succeed when we push for more summer tournaments, more organization in USA wrestling within the state, urge more parents who seem quite willing to work during season to work out of season with our competitors...

I don't believe that is true.  Not all other states have the same rule.

Ky is at a disadvantage because we barely have enough coaches to coach the high school teams let alone finding other coaches to coach a summer team.

This rule in Ky does not just affect head coaches or assistant coaches.  It affects anyone who helps with a high school team and acts as a coach in any way for a high school team.

I don't believe that is true.  Not all other states have the same rule.

Ohio high school coaches have no problems coaching fs/gr in the summer.  In fact they have summer leagues up there.  The rules must be a little different there.

Both an excellent and very valid point there GOO.  As for the whole "would a kid rather be a state champ or an AA", well I think that would depend on the individual and can't be just a generalized point.  If a kid knew he had no shot at being an AA at Fargo or wherever, but knew he had a shot to be a state champ, obviously I think they would choose being a state champ.  However, if a kid had already won a state championship, was truly looking to make a name for himself, looking to attract attention from major college coaches and / or also thought they had a shot at placing at a large national tournament, I think they would choose being an AA.  I think when most kids start wrestling and eventually make their way to high school, being a state champ would foremost in their mind.  However, as a kid begins to notice their potential or lack there of, that's when the aspirations of being more than just a state champ or not begin to take priority and things like being an AA at a major tournament or obtaining that college scholarship for wrestling become more important.  If I had to say which one "most" kids would rather be, I would say most would rather be a state champ because they don't have any aspirations beyond high school wrestling.  But there are those few who want more and being an AA is what they would rather be.  I think the same thing holds true for other kids who play other sports.  When kids 1st start out playing football or whatever, they can't wait to play on their high school team.  Once they realize their potential, they start thinking bigger like all-state, then maybe college scholarship.  If they get that college scholarship, they begin thinking of starting for their college team, then making all-conference, etc.  If they excel at that next level then dreams and hopes of playing professional start to take priority.  Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my opinion anyway.

You're dead on the money in my opinion.

That same rule exists in all the other states as well.  Why should KY be different?  What makes it toware we are weaker and cannot get these things done when they are dealing with the same rules?  We can and will succeed when we push for more summer tournaments, more organization in USA wrestling within the state, urge more parents who seem quite willing to work during season to work out of season with our competitors...

toware did you go to collage at dinubus?  :-D :-D  Ok, seriously i give up now.  poke fun of me or goo all you want but that's worse than collage right there.

You're dead on the money in my opinion.

Yes, I think dragon master said what goo and I were getting at.  Right on.

Yes, I think dragon master said what goo and I were getting at.  Right on.

Oh! Oh! Oh!  And me too, don't forget about me! 

Oh! Oh! Oh!  And me too, don't forget about me! 

And guru too.  I think I got distracted by the "discussion" between you and dinubus.

I guess I'll follow up on an earlier post.  This whole Fargo thing is off topic.  If we're going to continue, let's move it to the Fargo thread.

Okay, I don't wish this to get moved over to the Fargo thread and cover up the accomplishments of the three KY wrestlers with a drive to become an All American or at least give it a shot and get good competition, so this will be my last post on this topic.  Evidently you all, having been KY wrestlers yourselves, know more about the drive of other KY wrestlers than me.  I guess I just expect more drive than is available here and I need to get used to more apathy.  Thanks for clearing this all up Ranger, GOO, Dragon Master, and of course Guru.

So, how about those rankings?

I will say this...

I don't think you will see any ranking changes based on this years Fargo results (ervin and fahy are already #1 and murphy is #3 behind two great wrestlers).

Maybe we'll get to see some interesting matchups this weekend at BGSG.

Unfortunately I can read between the posts of Dinabus, his interests are of good nature (I hope) that better overall competition breeds excellence, (I agree) it teaches your strengths and weakness and give you an overall look at what you need to have a productive practice, and lets you know what works and doesn't, with that being said , I think in all of the years of coaching , pushing your on ideas, whether they are correct, may come out sounding like you are disregarding the valiant efforts of many, and that does not go over well and then you find yourself fighting (argue), you do have a great point , but the needs of the many do not out weigh the needs of the few and we do not need  everybody trying to be an AA, there are a select motivated few athletes and coaches, with the financial, and work schedule, and family support who deserve a shot, but like it has been said , most wrestlers are interested in a state title(which in its own takes alot of sacrifice and support) but remember the many athletes that are not interested in AA status are the ones that keep the programs alive (Middle school, Elem. and High School ) there are more kids wrestling that are there to be part of a team atmosphere, enjoy the sport and are using it to keep in shape  or learn the skills of wrestling to enhance other sports (football) do not alienate these kids, but do keep driving the ones who want to make the next step(college) with the opportunity to be at Fargo and a chance to be an AA, this is just like any other sport, we fight the same battles in Football, and Baseball, and Basketball, the ones who are willing to go the extra mile always have the opportunity, the ones who do not can still have goals and can still be apart of the sport, not everyone wants to be Dan Gable or Cael Sanderson, but for the ones who do Dinabus (and others) be there for them and we will make sure they get the due respect they deserve , and hopefully they reach the goals they have set...

i would think the pressure would still be on at state. its your state!! you are representing yourself and trying to declair that no matter what im the best in the state. and you can say that, but at fargo all you can say is "im the best at fargo" im the best out of who decided to go. there might still be someone out there better but ill never know because that person didnt "man up" and come. and i agree it comes down to the wrestler, if the wrestler loves giving up his summer to spend alot of money to travel to these tournys, than fargo is where he belongs. but if the kid likes to bust his butt in season, put in the time when the time comes, but also has maybe another passion, whos to say that state should mean nothing to that kid compared to fargo. i would like to see someone go up to harrison courtney and say your 4 state titles are nothing compared to the kid that won fargo last year.

Wow, don't talk until you have attended Fargo.  You can say I am the best in the Nation when you go there. Far better than the best in Kentucky.  Don't even go there.

Under your idealogy Kentucky10, no one should go to the Olympics, because all you can say is that "I'm the best at the Olympics" there could be someone better, but they didn't "man up" and come.  What a stupid perspective on it.

Is there anyone on this site that is not crystal clear on the fact that Fargo is by far harder than our state tournament?  No, I didn't think so.  Dinubus, why are you beating this dead horse?  Everyone knows this.  Yes, it poops all over our state tournament.  But some kids are just weird and know this but still just aspire to be a state champ.  Some kids  :-o :-o :-o don't even like to wrestle freestyle or want to wrestle in college.  Some of those kids go to sleep every night dreaming of being a Ky state champ, and don't know or think anything about Fargo.  That doesn't make these kids wrong.  But they will still feel a lot of pressure at state when the time comes.  Don't get your feelings hurt, I'm just respectfully presenting you with another perspective.

i would think the pressure would still be on at state. its your state!! you are representing yourself and trying to declair that no matter what im the best in the state. and you can say that, but at fargo all you can say is "im the best at fargo" im the best out of who decided to go. there might still be someone out there better but ill never know because that person didnt "man up" and come. and i agree it comes down to the wrestler, if the wrestler loves giving up his summer to spend alot of money to travel to these tournys, than fargo is where he belongs. but if the kid likes to bust his butt in season, put in the time when the time comes, but also has maybe another passion, whos to say that state should mean nothing to that kid compared to fargo. i would like to see someone go up to harrison courtney and say your 4 state titles are nothing compared to the kid that won fargo last year.

Lol your funny. Or you can say im the best in the NATION.  ha

Is there anyone on this site that is not crystal clear on the fact that Fargo is by far harder than our state tournament?  No, I didn't think so.  Dinubus, why are you beating this dead horse?  Everyone knows this.  Yes, it poops all over our state tournament.  But some kids are just weird and know this but still just aspire to be a state champ.  Some kids  :-o :-o :-o don't even like to wrestle freestyle or want to wrestle in college.  Some of those kids go to sleep every night dreaming of being a Ky state champ, and don't know or think anything about Fargo.  That doesn't make these kids wrong.  But they will still feel a lot of pressure at state when the time comes.  Don't get your feelings hurt, I'm just respectfully presenting you with another perspective.

Sorry you are so thick that you didn't realize this, but you are the one beating a dead horse.  I was not even commenting on what was previously discussed, just answering in shock at what one of our youth stated on the subject.  Please re-read and re-assess yourself.

Okay, I don't wish this to get moved over to the Fargo thread and cover up the accomplishments of the three KY wrestlers with a drive to become an All American or at least give it a shot and get good competition, so this will be my last post on this topic.  Evidently you all, having been KY wrestlers yourselves, know more about the drive of other KY wrestlers than me.  I guess I just expect more drive than is available here and I need to get used to more apathy.  Thanks for clearing this all up Ranger, GOO, Dragon Master, and of course Guru.

Well, I didn't wrestle in KY, I wrestled in IN.  I was a decent wrestler, but far from great.  I did make it to semi-state after only my 2nd year of wrestling and was 1 match away from going to state, which in IN, I think is a pretty nice accomplishment.  I wanted to be a state champ.  Being an AA would be nice, no doubt, but I had to be honest with myself.  I would have been destroyed by some of those kids so although being an AA would be great and all, being a state champ was my foremost goal.  I was much better at football and that's where my priorities were so I gave up wrestling after that year.  I made all-state and started thinking bigger like college.  I went to college and played football and made all-conference, but that's it.  I realized I wasn't good enough to play at the next level so that's where it ended.  I guess my point is that my situation, both in wrestling and football at least in my opinion, would be what "most" kids' situations or mindsets are.

    Honestly, when you all were little kids, which one of you didn't dream of a situation like the World Series, bottom of the ninth, two outs, down by three, bases loaded, etc or whatever a similar situation might have been for the sport you loved most?  But once kids begin to move forward in their organized sports careers, dreams and aspirations change.  That's what I was trying to say.  That's when priorities begin to depend on the what the individual wants and that's where I think priorites can't be generalized, i.e. state champ or AA for wrestling in high school, AA or NCAA champ for college, etc.

    On a side note, congrats to John, Caleb and Jordan.  You represented KY well.  Looking forward to seeing these kids wrestle this year and for years to come.

Ok please note that my whole intention in coaching (and I coach at the youth level) is to develop the sport in Kentucky.  To make Kentucky a stronger wrestling state.

As far as a state title comparing to a fargo title it really is up to the individual and the situation.  Take Ken Chertow as an example.  He was a 2x state champ in WV, won fargo (in both free and greco), was a 3x NCAA All-American and an Olympian.  When talking to him one time he said his most memorable experience in wrestling was winning his first state title because it was his first major accomplishment and the culmination of all the hard work he had put in; he had achieved his goal.  The year before he had gone to NCAA's and it was then he decided to wrestle in college because he loved the excitement (if you haven't been to NCAA's you're missing out big time).  This situation is probably very common in wrestling.  However to make the sport grow in Kentucky we have to look past the high school state tournament.  It is my opinion that if my kid's goal is to be an NCAA champ or an Olympian then the state titles will take care of themselves.  That doesn't take away any of their significance but it is just a step in the larger picture.  We have to get our minds out of only competing in KY.  Take Brent Metcalf, Dustin Schlatter or anybody else on that level.  I guarantee you their ultimate goal is to be the best in the world.  And you know what?  Both are 4x state champs as well as NCAA champs (already) and probably will win another this year each.

The mentality I am trying to develop is to set your goals as high as possible, and do whatever it takes to get there.  As a high school kid the best you can possibly do is to win fargo, senior nationals, beast of the east, reno t of c, ironman and other elite national tournaments.  If I had won beast of the east and not state would I be disappointed?  Sure but my season still would have been a success.  In fact I would say that winning beast of the east is a greater accomplishment than a state title, at least in KY.

So I guess I agree with dinubus and Mr Granby by saying that I would rather be an All-American than a state champ, if I had to choose, which is what this debate has turned into.  In fact I would probably trade 2 or 3 state titles for a fargo championship, or senior nationals.  Would I get the name recognition around the state?  No but I would know that I accomplished a much harder task in winning those national tournaments.  But my whole point beyond this debate is if we limit our thinking to just winning state titles then most of us are going to fall short.  It's the ones that strive to be the best in the country who wind up winning multiple state titles.  Kyle Ruschell is a great example.  He was focused on the bigger picture and the little details just happened on the way.  One of my high school teachers had a sign in her room.  I hated her class but it was a good poster.  "Reach for the stars.  You may not always get one, but you won't come up with a handful of dirt either."  With that in mind I'll leave you with this scenario.  We all have, or should have, goals.  Let's face it, most of us fall a little short if we really push ourselves.  If my goal is to place at sate then realistically I'm probably going to fall one or two matches short, or at least place low.  If my goal is to place 3rd then I'll probably place anywhere from 3-6.  If my goal is to win it then I'll probably place high (top 4).  However if my goal is to win a tough national tournament and fall short then I'll probably win a state title.  The important thing is the mentality you have when training for your goal.  We have to expand our thinking past just winning state titles.

Sorry I rambled, which I tend to do when I feel strongly about something.  Please anyone feel free to comment.

    jpizar83, nice post and I agree to a point.  You also helped to make my point.  What a kid's priority might be depends on that kid as you also stated.  Your priority, as well as dinibus and Mr. Granby, was to be an AA.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and I respect that, but as a whole, I think that most kids of high school wrestling age don't share that same goal.  Should a kid set his goals as high as possible, absolutely!  However, the simple fact is that not every kid can be Cael Sanderson, Ken Chertow, Dan Gable, etc so setting goals of being an AA, NCAA champ or whatever simple aren't feasable let alone reasonable.  There's also nothing wrong with a kid setting his goal as simply making state, or going a little higher and even setting his goal as placing or beyond because those goals are as high as possible for them.

    Like I've stated before, I wrestled in IN, but have become a part of the wrestling community in KY since I coached here.  I would like to see the state of KY become more prominent on the national level as well and would like to see the sport grow much larger in this state.  Would kids competing and excelling on the national level help that cause, sure it would to a point, but if we want the sport to grow in this state (and this has been a debate on this site before), we need to develop more avenues in the state for kids, like more youth programs, high school programs and yes, even college wrestling, but of all these, first and foremost should be youth programs.  A lot of little people around the state don't know about some of the great wrestlers in this state past and present except for kids/parents/coaches/fans currently in the wrestling community.  Let's face it, a lot of kids know about Kentuckians in college and in the pros in sports like baseball, football, basketball, etc even if they're not into that sport simply because there is more mainstream exposure.  I see regular season baseball, football, etc games played on TV and covered in the media all the time, but not wrestling unless it's the postseason (HS or NCAAs) or Olympics.  Since wrestling will probably never achieve that same national exposure, it takes the people currently in the wrestling community to recruit kids and get them into wrestling first, not getting kids placing high at national tournaments.  The more kids that are in the sport, the more exposure it will gain and so on.  It's a vicious cycle.

jpizar83's post is exactly what I was stating as he said we need to start looking beyond the state to grow the state.  Dragon Master, we never stated that our priority was to be an AA.  Actually, I planned on being an Olympic Champion.  That was my whole goal.  Too bad I broke my neck while still in my senior year in high school and was told that if I kept wrestling I would be paralyzed.  The height of the goal is what matters.  We need to have our youth think big.  You don't always have to reach your highest goal, but without setting that highest goal, we will never accomplish the littler things like becoming a state champion. 

I think the State Title would provide more attention for the individual due to the fact most people in and out of wrestling circles can relate to a state title but few people know what the tournament in Fargo is about.

So I think the State Title could be the most rewarding because it would be accomplished in front of all the local friends and competitors. I'm not saying to AA would not be rewarding just that it doesn't carry the same type of recognition.

I would like to point out how difficult it is for a wrestler from KY to AA in any national event but especially in Greco or Freestyle. The styles of wrestling such as FS or Greco are just enough different that a good Folkstyle wrestler can compete in either style and do very well. But it becomes increasingly difficult to win against the better wrestlers because they typically have more experience and better training at the particular style. So my point is the good folkstyle wrestlers with little experience at FS or Greco can hold their own in FS or Greco against the average to good wrestler. However to beat the elite is another story. The elite in FS and Greco possess superior skills in the other styles and that becomes the difference, I thought this to be especially true in Greco. Theres a skill level in each style that seperates the best from the rest.

The KY kids that have done well at Fargo are to be commended because it really is an exceptional accomplishment to survive as long in the tourney as they have. I think its the lack of special training in the particular style that keeps our kids from attaining the AA status.

A lot of good points on here.  I agree that kids who have dreams of wrestling at the next level need to compete nationally.  I would say our kids have done a great job going to the various folkstyle nationals like the NHSCA nationals.  But I don't believe we have that strong of freestyle wrestling in this state yet to interest many kids in driving 15 hours to fargo to compete at nationals for fs/gr.  But our best h.s. state champs are competing every year to be an all american in Virginia Beach and now we are seeing middle school & elementary kids make it there in good numbers.  Keep it up guys!

We need more competitors with the desire and more parents with the support and willingness to participate in the areas needed.  It is obvious we have a bunch of excuses and nothing else.  It is sad when Alaska sends 14 total competitors when it costs them a lot more to come and their total state population is less than 7 hundred thousand and we compare this to Kentucky's 3 total competitors with a total state population closer to 7 million.

And Guru, what is a good showing at the Folkstyle nationals?  How did we reach this?

We need more competitors with the desire and more parents with the support and willingness to participate in the areas needed.  It is obvious we have a bunch of excuses and nothing else.  It is sad when Alaska sends 14 total competitors when it costs them a lot more to come and their total state population is less than 7 hundred thousand and we compare this to Kentucky's 3 total competitors with a total state population closer to 7 million.

And Guru, what is a good showing at the Folkstyle nationals?  How did we reach this?

Wow, I've never conversed with a more argumentative person in my life.  You win man.  We didn't have a good showing at Folkstyle nationals.  I bet you suck the life out of every one around you.

jpizar83's post is exactly what I was stating as he said we need to start looking beyond the state to grow the state.  Dragon Master, we never stated that our priority was to be an AA.  Actually, I planned on being an Olympic Champion.  That was my whole goal.  Too bad I broke my neck while still in my senior year in high school and was told that if I kept wrestling I would be paralyzed.  The height of the goal is what matters.  We need to have our youth think big.  You don't always have to reach your highest goal, but without setting that highest goal, we will never accomplish the littler things like becoming a state champion. 

    Alright then, how about this, jpizar83, Mr. Granby & yourself placed more "emphasis" on being an AA instead of a state champ.  Is that better?  Listen, I'm not saying your wrong so don't get your panties in a bunch.  I respect your opinion, but it's just, that your opinion and I don't agree with it.  Likewise, many may not agree with my opinion of which you're obviously one.  Setting your goals high was what you preferred to do so great.  Hopefully that worked out for you.  I was different.  I started out with smaller, more obtainable goals.  As I reached those, I set my sights higher.  I would have loved to play pro football, but it didn't happen.  That was a goal of mine since I was 10 years old, but I wasn't good enough.  That would have been the ultimate.  However, my first goal was to start for my high school team.  I accomplished that goal and it gave me a sense of satisfaction that I had done something.  Next I set my goal to make all-conference which I also accomplished.  Once again, I gained a sense of satisfaction.  Then I went for all-state and I accomplished that.  Then my goals became playing in college, etc.  Do you see what I'm getting at here?  Setting my goals at a "littler" level helped me to obtain some of those, which gave me the confidence to think bigger.  That's what worked for me.  Was I a failure since I didn't play professionally?  The answer is hell no.  I reached a lot of my goals and I'm proud of that.  So once again, to my original point, the emphasis, priority, or whatever you want to call it, depends on the individual and can't be a generalized statement.  To back up my point, I was very fortunate to coach an individual who as an 8th grader won 2 matches and again as a freshman only won 2 matches.  He set his goal to make it to state his sophomore year and he did that.  The next year, he set his goal higher and wanted to be a state champ and he did that.  That's when he began to think even bigger like achieving AA status.  It never happened, but he had the satisfaction of knowing he was a state champ and that was a goal of his that he obtained.

    I mean no offense when I ask this so please don't take this the wrong way, but did you have any other goals than to be an AA and if you didn't, do you feel like a failure since you obviously didn't achieve that, but might have accomplished other "littler" things like being a state champ?

Actually I was an All American, just not a Fargo All American.  I won the AAU Schoolboy, Cadet, and Junior Nationals.  However, as I already stated, my longstanding goal was the Olympics.  Yes, I did have smaller goals as well, that I saw would build toward my longstanding goal.  State Champion and All American were goals that I reached.  The Fargo Nationals would have been far better, but I only went once during my Junior year and didn't realize I should cut weight.  I had thought AAU was tougher than USA as I had hit better competition in the Detroit area with AAU.  Anyway, I lost out to the 3rd and 6th placer each by 1 point while going my natural weight.

So, all in all, you did have a longsighted goal with football which was your primary sport.  That is what we have been talking about.  State Champion is the type of longsighted goals these kids have thusfar looked at.  They don't see that wrestling can be a part of their lives even after college.  Having longsighted goals beyond highschool is what the competitors with wrestling as their primary sport should have.  They need it to consume them and push them past the walls they build.  You should know that with what you stated about Football.  Is it a bad thing that you didn't reach your longstanding goal?  No, it would have been nice to do, but it didn't kill you not to.  However, would you have met all those short term goals without having set the longterm goal?  No.  That is pure and simple psychology.

Guys, why don't you just give up.  Realize that the all powerful Oz (aka dinubus) is smarter, more educated, a better wrestler, bigger, stronger, faster, and probably better looking than all of us.  :wink:  We are technically not worthy to communicate with him, but he allows us bask in his knowledge occasionally on this site just so we can maybe, every once in a great while, drill some of his great pearls of knowledge into our little brains.  I know it is hard for us to understand, with our uneducated minds and minuscule IQs, but he knows best.

Okay, back to reality, give up on it.  dinubus will never entertain the idea that someone else has a good point or may understand something close to the level that he does.  it is always his way or you are an idiot.

Im sure I missed this somewhere, but how did Fahy do in Fargo?

Nevermind, just found it.

Under your idealogy Kentucky10, no one should go to the Olympics, because all you can say is that "I'm the best at the Olympics" there could be someone better, but they didn't "man up" and come.  What a stupid perspective on it.

no, i didn't say anything on no one should go to fargo, i said it depends on the wrestler. and in the olympics your representing your country, moron. im actually glad you broke your neck cuz i would hate to think that you would be one of the few to represent our country on a level that is suppose to have wrestlers with the upmost respect, something you lack. im not saying i do, but then again my goal isnt to get to the olympics haha.

I hope you don't break your neck, it isn't something anyone deserves to deal with.

I hope you don't break your neck, it isn't something anyone deserves to deal with.

good i hope i don't either. does it mean im going to have sympathy for you breaking yours? no, things get broken, people get hurt, people die, etc im not going to preach i dont believe in it, but it seems to me that you are looking for respect in the wrong ways. you need to cope that u will never wrestle in the olympics, and that wrestling is not that big of a deal to be beat up over it and to hurt in the heart everytime u think, "damn i could have been in the olympics" i feel for you, im sorry you didn't obtain your goal but life is life man, you got to take what it gives you and improvise.

tisk tisk tisk, do your parents know that you are such a sad boy? 

dude mack chill out man the man is saying he doesnt want ur high school wrestling to end because of sumthing that could happen to u dude because i want to be in the olypics one day man and just because u dnt doesnt me u wish that upon anyone else dude i mean dnt have to put that on anyone man

To get back on topic... If a person's goals is only to be a state champion then that's fine, honestly.  However, for the most part, the best way to achieve greatness (NCAA titles, Olympian) is to have a goal that is almost unattainable.  There should be smaller objectives along the way for sure (make it to state, place, state champ, etc.)  I don't think you'll are quite getting my point though.  A state title is obviously a huge accomplishment, something I came just short of.  The vast majority of All-Americans and NCAA champs though have won multiple state titles.  So we're arguing over which is better or which would you pick, a state title or AA honors.  If you get to be an AA at fargo then I can almost guarantee you that you'll win a state title.  The problem with raising your goals as you achieve them is you don't always know what's more that you can achieve.  Obviously most people know that there are NCAA champs every year but not everyone really thinks they have a realistic shot at doing it themselves.  By raising your goals as you go along you're almost creating a glass ceiling for yourself.  We have to change the mentality of wrestlers in our state; show them that being a national champ is possible for them too, not just for people in PA, OH, CA, IA, IL etc.

In order to be able to compete nationally in freestyle then we need to wrestle it more.  Instead of folkstyle tournaments in the off-season we should be having freestyle ones.  I agree it's probably not worth it to someone just starting out wrestling freestyle to go to fargo because they might win one match.  That's a long trip for only 3 matches.

I like this debate because we're bouncing ideas off each other but hope that everyone can debate in a civilized manner.  Again please feel free to comment.

In order to be able to compete nationally in freestyle then we need to wrestle it more.  Instead of folkstyle tournaments in the off-season we should be having freestyle ones.  I agree it's probably not worth it to someone just starting out wrestling freestyle to go to fargo because they might win one match.  That's a long trip for only 3 matches.

I agree with you here.  I also think this is already happening, maybe just not as fast as people would like.  In the past few years this state has gone from practically zero off season fs/gr tournaments to a handful or more.  I would say that's not enough but it's going in the right direction.  If you think about it, we ARE seeing our kids step up and go to nationals more and more in the off season just not Fargo.  As fs/gr grows in this state you'll see more kids going out to Fargo. 

I think Kentucky should put together a frestyle Duals team to take to national Duals and fargo.

here we could see where we are at Nationally. although it would be frestyle.

I think Kentucky should put together a frestyle Duals team to take to national Duals and fargo.

here we could see where we are at Nationally. although it would be frestyle.

Agree completely.  Anyone know how this can be done?  McCoy or Keith Smith?

Agree completely.  Anyone know how this can be done?  McCoy or Keith Smith?

We have already tried this.  The fact is freestyle and greco in KY isnt supported enough.  I always wanted something like that and had everyone around me pushing for it.  I hope some coach would step up and take this role on for the sake of KY wrestling, it would improve competition leaps and bounds.