Is it just me or is there just a bigger Quanity of wrestlers in these last to years. Or has the quality of the wrestlers dropped. It seems that the state is getting weaker and weaker. since 2003-2004 the state has really dropped it quality of wrestlers and just picked up quanity.

that is absurd...wrestling in kentucky has vastly improved, and lots more people...a lot of the best wrestlers this state will ever see wrestled this year, like big starks, scherer, murton, lewis, courtney, scott, and sullivan

No way ... the talent level is what it always has been ... maybe better as the sport has gotten bigger. Look at all the names you had this year alone ...

Sullivan, Lewis, Scott, Murton, Courtney, Banks, Cooper and Cooper, Wolsiefer, R Starks, Sherer, Byrd (a healthy Byrd is almost another Sherer). There's no way you're gonna tell me these guys can't hang with the vast majority of the champions from the past.

And several of these guys had some non-blowout matches before the finals ... or didn't win state !

Yes, it's just you. The talent is getting much stronger in the state. A lot of people on this site have made a point that weight classes are getting weaker because there are younger kids qualifying for state....i would say that's more a result of kids in this state starting a lot younger than kids just 5-10 years ago.

Is it just me or is there just a bigger Quanity of wrestlers in these last to years. Or has the quality of the wrestlers dropped. It seems that the state is getting weaker and weaker. since 2003-2004 the state has really dropped it quality of wrestlers and just picked up quanity.

I see your agrument, and I am not completely sure that I disagree with you. When you look at a state champion that has only wrestled 1 1/2 (Powers) years a first year placer (Hwt), and I believe that Murner has only been wrestling 3 years.

My catch on this is that our top 3-6 in each wt class are top notch wrestlers, there are exceptions in some wt. classes. I'm not concerned with the age of the wrestlers, but the years of experience of our wrestlers. It seems that more 1st and 2nd year wrestlers are becoming successful more than before.

To answer your question I would say Yes, but this is probably just growing pains. When you have several new teams and wrestlers in the state the overall quality will diminish. I do however give credit to those coaches that are coaching those first year teams. They have done a great job and hopefully will continue to do so.

well i was just pointing to show that the kids today like a two timer scott, a freshman winning a state title. Murner winning a state title. God starks a three timer. The quality of the kids. You go back 3 or even 4 years ago you only had a one 3 timer and maybe a two timer but this year there was like 3 or 4 kids that were threee timers. taylor i can see and some what murton. But starks a four time finalist would that of happened if the brackets were seeded no way it would have been aj green and manning in the finals. could murner even placed 3 or 4 years ago even with the talent he has now no way. Scott of been a state champ 3 or 4 years ago with his talent now i dont think so. Murton tech and pin his way throught the state tournament not with kids like Brad cooper, hines, Shaver, Perry it would not have happened. i just seems to me that the quanity is up but the quality is way down.

old grappler - I think you have hit on a point. I think we are getting better prepared coaches who are doing a great job of teaching these inexperienced kids. Plus, I think some kids are taking advantage of the many offseason opportunities to get better quick while some kids sit at home.

old grappler - I think you have hit on a point. I think we are getting better prepared coaches who are doing a great job of teaching these inexperienced kids. Plus' date=' I think some kids are taking advantage of the many offseason opportunities to get better quick while some kids sit at home.[/quote']

Ranger, I agree, even the newer kids are wrestling year round getting much needed mat time improving them at a much faster rate. Most motivated wrestlers are choosing to only wrestle, not like years in the past when you tried to play as many other sports as you could, thus being a seasonal wrestler. We have a new breed of wrestlers that are going for the gold. Especially the ones that started late in life and wish they had started younger. With kY wrestling growing as it is, the one and two year champions will be replaced with the 4 or 5 years (year round wrestler) in the next couple years. To those wrestles with a few years experience that have done well at state. I congratulate them for a job well done. On a side note: Wrestling, like any other sport is evolving. Every year most coaches learn how get their program to the next level of competition by continuing their coaching education and to gather new information and attend as many coaching clinics as possible. With the motivated coaches that I see in Kentucky it will be sooner than later that we as a state get to that next level of competition. Congrats to all coaches working hard to improve your program.

well i was just pointing to show that the kids today like a two timer scott' date=' a freshman winning a state title. Murner winning a state title. God starks a three timer. The quality of the kids. You go back 3 or even 4 years ago you only had a one 3 timer and maybe a two timer but this year there was like 3 or 4 kids that were threee timers. taylor i can see and some what murton. But starks a four time finalist would that of happened if the brackets were seeded no way it would have been aj green and manning in the finals. could murner even placed 3 or 4 years ago even with the talent he has now no way. Scott of been a state champ 3 or 4 years ago with his talent now i dont think so. Murton tech and pin his way throught the state tournament not with kids like Brad cooper, hines, Shaver, Perry it would not have happened. i just seems to me that the quanity is up but the quality is way down.[/quote']

murton wrestled bo hines over the summer last year 2x that i saw and pinned hines both times in the 1st prd...kids in ky are starting to get nationally ranked and actually compete in out of state tournaments...and cooper hines shaver and perry didnt all wrestle the same weight class and shaver wasnt even a state champion...scott would have crushed shaver anyways if scott's senior version could have wrestled shaver's senior version

quantity and quality are both up...murton and ruschelle placing at beast of east, starks getting a west point wrestling scholarship, sullivan winning jr olympics...there are lots of examples, i just dont know them all

I would have to think the kids from years ago had less experience by their Senior year because fewer kids were starting prior to high school.

My guess is the kids from back then has less experience than led to believe. They may have had as many years but not as much mat time or as many matches. There are so many off season opportunities today that a 2nd year wrestler who has wrestled year round could have 200 matches under their belt already. Years ago I dont think high school kids were getting even 50 matches a season. We have had kids that in two years had more matches than their coaches did in their entire middle school, high school and college career. Not sure who was coaching who after awhile with so many matches, but its a bg difference from then to now.

I think Powers, Southern is an exceptionally gifted athlete who has a natural ability to wrestle with the strength and desire to match it.

I do believe some of the kids from years ago might have been in better overall shape, not as much video and computer taking up their time and more bike riding, walking, and playing outdoors to pass the time kept them in better overall shape.

not to completely beat a dead horse, but a couple more examples of kids doing extremely well on a national level:

John Wolseifer...he's placed 2nd at Ohio Tournament of Champions...and a few other national tournaments...yet he had his hands full in the finals, and nearly lost.

Eric Bryant...someone said on here he made all american at the pre-season h.s. nationals...yet he took 3rd at state and was getting beat pretty handily for 3rd & 4th when Stacey Miller got DQed.

What you are experiencing is what all wrestlers go through when they graduate...."I used to smoke these kids, now they're state champs...therefore the state is getting weaker". Experience is key in this sport, and you are seeing freshmen win state because they've been wrestling very competitively for 5+ years. 3 or 4 years ago those kids were white-tiger rare. Now there's a kid like that in just about every weight class.

btw - that freshman Courtney is an exceptional wrestler and beat a very good kid in the finals.

I have no argument about our top wrestlers in each wt. class. I certainly believe that most of our top wrestlers can compete with the best in other states like Ohio (I use them because they are close to me and they are one of the better statewide wrestling states).

I don't however think that our bottom 2/3rds can compete with others or even in recent past. We don't have the depth in each wt. class that we use to.

But like I mentioned states have peaks and valleys much like teams do. (McCreary Central is on a peak) (Campbell Co. is in a valley). Woodford even had a valley in the 80's. The state will once again reach a peak and the next peak will be higher than the last and the next valley will not be as deap as the last.

Ky wrestling is improving for several reasons, and it will continue to do so, as long as we have people pushing for success.

well i was just pointing to show that the kids today like a two timer scott' date=' a freshman winning a state title. Murner winning a state title. God starks a three timer. The quality of the kids. You go back 3 or even 4 years ago you only had a one 3 timer and maybe a two timer but this year there was like 3 or 4 kids that were threee timers. taylor i can see and some what murton. But starks a four time finalist would that of happened if the brackets were seeded no way it would have been aj green and manning in the finals. could murner even placed 3 or 4 years ago even with the talent he has now no way. Scott of been a state champ 3 or 4 years ago with his talent now i dont think so. Murton tech and pin his way throught the state tournament not with kids like Brad cooper, hines, Shaver, Perry it would not have happened. i just seems to me that the quanity is up but the quality is way down.[/quote']

You seem to forget the fact that Brad Cooper teched Bo Hines in the state finals a few years back. Eerily familiar of Murton handing it to everyone. You use Cooper as a standard now, but if you go back to when he teched Hines you could argue it was weak then based on the single man being dominant argument. But you're not doing that. Maybe Shaver, Perry, Cooper etc just wrestled weak guys if you're gonna go down that path. After all. No champ should be teching the runner up. You see where i'm going with this ... maybe in a few years someone will bring up "You'd never have handed it to Murton like that" implying everyone else he faced gave him a tough match.

Just cause someone is dominant doesn't mean everyone else is down ... actually thats the less statistically likely scenario. I mean seriously, what are the odds everyone now stinks at a scale as big as statewide (relatively speaking that is ... and yes individual teams have valleys) ? People come behind replace everyone, thats how it is and always will be. The talent hasn't dropped ... just new faces we aint ready for.

You seem to forget, Scott wrestled the #1 ranked guy in the country and lost by 10 last year at nationals. He beat the top ranked guy from West Virginia (i believe he was) last year too. He hardly is a caretaker champ ... he's as legit as anyone from the past.

On Murner. Um ... if he got a lucky draw he had to beat the guy that beat the studs ... didn't he ? Same with Starks or anyone else who we want to go down that path with. And Starks won Western Brown OH (Hammer and Anvil) this year, he has to be a beast.

wow...couldnt agree more! i agree completely...3 cheers for you sir!

Personally i feel like i have improved so much over the years. I placed 7th my frosh year, 3rd sophmore year, and 2nd junior year, Altough i only went up one place i feel like i have gotten 2 times better and i feel like i will continue to get better. It's all a matter of time when u start to realize what it takes to be better. Also about the quote of how you used to smoke all these kids. It's just like a big brother beating up his kid brother and then 5 years later the kid brother being able to hold his own and eventually beat up his big brother. Its a corny analogy but thats how it works. The kids you used to beat have gotten a lot better and they may not be so easy to smoke now.

Personally i feel like i have improved so much over the years. I placed 7th my frosh year' date=' 3rd sophmore year, and 2nd junior year, Altough i only went up one place i feel like i have gotten 2 times better and i feel like i will continue to get better. [b']It's all a matter of time when u start to realize what it takes to be better. Also about the quote of how you used to smoke all these kids. It's just like a big brother beating up his kid brother and then 5 years later the kid brother being able to hold his own and eventually beat up his big brother. Its a corny analogy but thats how it works. The kids you used to beat have gotten a lot better and they may not be so easy to smoke now.[/quote]

Well said :wink: