It seems to me that our teams are becoming polarized with the best teams getting stronger and the other teams flalling off.  For example 8 ot the 14 champions came from the top 3 teams.  Also 19 (of a possible 54) of the all the top 4 four finishers came from just the top 4 teams.  Is it the top teams getting better or is it a bigger concern that many of our other teams are starting to slide?

Why do the Yankees get better every year?

For example 8 ot the 14 champions came from the top 3 teams.  Also 19 (of a possible 54) of the all the top 4 four finishers came from just the top 4 teams

Could that be why they are the top 3 teams?

The top teams are where they are for a reason.  I do believe though that we have several young programs across the state that given 2 - 3 years will begin to gain ground on current programs.  If you look at the youth and middle school programs you still see the top programs but you also see others gaining ground.  Again, I believe the top programs will remain dominant in many ways for years to come. 

I think all teams go through ups and downs.  Woodford was the absolute power house for many years and they continue to place very respectable however they are struggling right now... They are still the team to watch and not overlook... and they will absolutely be back on the top... and you will find strong athletes show up on strong and weak teams and those athletes will make it to the state tournament in it's current format regardless of the strength of the team.  An couple examples of that are the wrestlers that were in the finals from lower placing teams such as  Josh Loqez from Franklin 24th place, Chase Boone from Ohio Co 33rd place, and Kevin Cooper from Simon Kenton 21st Place... so in my opinion you are making a good case for keeping the 32 man bracket at the State Tournament or you may only have a handfull of the same teams getting a chance to compete and likely not see a Franklin, Ohio Co, etc. have an opportunity to be in a finals match.  I believe some athletes bring a higher level of performance to a state tournament while others "freeze" up and don't preform as well or as expected.  Just my 2 cents!

I agree D1.  Look at Harrison Co., they brought three to state  and ended up with a state champion.  They were down some this year but will be strong again in the near future.  They have a great youth program that is going to bring them many great wrestlers in the next few years.  You can't count someone out based on one years performance.  Harrison Co. will have several make it to state in the next couple of years and beyond.

The other issue is where the top teams wrestle.  Trinity, Ryle and Union all wrestled tournaments out of state.  They were in Ohio, Indiana and Tennessee, sometimes taking a loss to toughen up for the Kentucky state tournament.  I'm not sure many of the Lexington schools went out of state to find competition this year.  It does make a difference seeing tough competition, different styles and different people when the state tournament comes around.

I agree D1.  Look at Harrison Co., they brought three to state  and ended up with a state champion.  They were down some this year but will be strong again in the near future.  They have a great youth program that is going to bring them many great wrestlers in the next few years.  You can't count someone out based on one years performance.  Harrison Co. will have several make it to state in the next couple of years and beyond.

One great kid does not make a great team.  Harrison hasn't been a really good team in a long time.  Also only 3 state champions in school history.  They will bounce back some but the program probably won't greatly improve without some major changes

The other issue is where the top teams wrestle.  Trinity, Ryle and Union all wrestled tournaments out of state.  They were in Ohio, Indiana and Tennessee, sometimes taking a loss to toughen up for the Kentucky state tournament.  I'm not sure many of the Lexington schools went out of state to find competition this year.  It does make a difference seeing tough competition, different styles and different people when the state tournament comes around.

I believe Lafayette went to South Carolina this year.

One great kid does not make a great team.  Harrison hasn't been a really good team in a long time.  Also only 3 state champions in school history.  They will bounce back some but the program probably won't greatly improve without some major changes

Married, I wasn't saying that one kid made a great team.  I was just pointing out that Harrison County should show great improvements in the next few years because of their youth program

I believe the strong are getting stronger but I don't think the weak are getting weaker. Sometimes its just hard to keep up with some of the larger schools in the state. With a class system we could really grow the sport of wrestling in Kentucky. The number of teams in kentucky is not really growing at the pace that many of us would like to see. It is very hard to convince some of the smaller schools (400-600 students) to start up wrestling programs when they have to compete with some of the biggest schools in the state (1200-1500 students). At the same time it is very difficult for the smaller schools that have wrestling programs to keep up with and compete with those large schools. I think we had 78 teams compete in our state tournament this year. That would plenty of enough teams to go to a two class system like WV.  I think if we tried the class system for two years we would see a dramatic increase in the number of wrestling programs across the state.

I believe the strong are getting stronger but I don't think the weak are getting weaker. Sometimes its just hard to keep up with some of the larger schools in the state. With a class system we could really grow the sport of wrestling in Kentucky. The number of teams in kentucky is not really growing at the pace that many of us would like to see. It is very hard to convince some of the smaller schools (400-600 students) to start up wrestling programs when they have to compete with some of the biggest schools in the state (1200-1500 students). At the same time it is very difficult for the smaller schools that have wrestling programs to keep up with and compete with those large schools. I think we had 78 teams compete in our state tournament this year. That would plenty of enough teams to go to a two class system like WV.  I think if we tried the class system for two years we would see a dramatic increase in the number of wrestling programs across the state.

We might as well give out medals for participation next year too.  We are not big enough to split to a two-class system.  If you split it in half then you would have less than forty schools each.  Basically everyone would qualify for the state tournament, that is unless the KHSAA goes back to the 16-man bracket.  Even then making it to state wouldn't be an accomplishment which is the biggest problem I have with the 32-man bracket now.  The top teams in the state aren't really far enough ahead of the small schools to warrant a split.  Trinity and Ryle are good but Union has been right there with them as evidenced by their finishes the past few years.  If the top large schools in the state were something like Mater Dei in Indiana or Parkersburg South in West Virginia I might think differently but probably not.  We just don't have the volume of teams to justify a split, sorry.

If you want to split the state into division only do it at the state DUALS tourney.  Wrestling is an individual sport with group tendencies. 

Smaller schools can compete with larger schools.  It has nothing to do with the amount of kids at your school.  A team with 10 wrestlers can still have a state champion.  Schools don't drop or refuse to field a team because the team can't compete.  They drop it or refuse to start one for one of three things.  1.  MONEY  2.  Title IX 3. No interest by the students.

Don't go to a class sytem.  If you did that and you were the 130lb champion of either division, you would never really know if you were the best in KY. The team championship is only important to maybe 10-15 teams in the state.  The rest focus their energy on individual state champions and placers.

If you want to split the state into division only do it at the state DUALS tourney.  Wrestling is an individual sport with group tendencies. 

This might be the best idea I've heard in the debate about this.  The coaches association runs it anyhow and they are the ones who are trying to impose it.  Make it two eight team brackets and you essentially have the same result in terms of time and planning.  If you want to make it interesting allow small schools to "bump up" and wrestle in the large school division.

This might be the best idea I've heard in the debate about this.  The coaches association runs it anyhow and they are the ones who are trying to impose it.  Make it two eight team brackets and you essentially have the same result in terms of time and planning.  If you want to make it interesting allow small schools to "bump up" and wrestle in the large school division.

Dang. I have one good idea a year and I already made it.  What am I gong to do for the rest of the year?  :-D 8-) :evil:

We might as well give out medals for participation next year too.  We are not big enough to split to a two-class system.  If you split it in half then you would have less than forty schools each.  Basically everyone would qualify for the state tournament, that is unless the KHSAA goes back to the 16-man bracket.  Even then making it to state wouldn't be an accomplishment which is the biggest problem I have with the 32-man bracket now.  The top teams in the state aren't really far enough ahead of the small schools to warrant a split.  Trinity and Ryle are good but Union has been right there with them as evidenced by their finishes the past few years.  If the top large schools in the state were something like Mater Dei in Indiana or Parkersburg South in West Virginia I might think differently but probably not.  We just don't have the volume of teams to justify a split, sorry.

West Virginia runs a pretty good two class system with about 95 teams total. So you are looking at forty some teams per class with a sixteen man bracket in each weight class. They have the state tournament on the same weekend at the same venue. Here is what our state tournament looked like this year as far as the size of schools. I only went as deep as the top 15 schools.

1. Trinity 232 6A

2. Ryle 204 6A

3. Union 129 3A

4. Johnson Central 128.5 5A

5. Larue 120 4A

6. Campbell County 117.5 6A

7. Wayne County 116 3A

8. John Hardin 99 5A

9. St. X 94 6A

10. North Hardin 78.5 6A

11. Woodford 77.5 5A

12. South Oldham 75 5A

13. Southern 73.5 6A

14. Whitley County 70.5 5A

15. Seneca 70 6A

15. Sheldon Clark 70 3A

That adds up to:

6A- 869.5

5A- 450.5

4A- 120

3A- 315

2A- 0

1A- 0

If this were splt into Large School/Small School you would have:

Large School- 1440

Small School- 315

I would say that the larger schools in our state are more than a little further ahead of our small schools.

LaRue is/was the smallest school in 4A when we went to the new classification in football. It was something like 1 or 2 male students that kept them from being 3A. Plus LaRue is in the small school division at State Tournament.

Also if you look at the next 15 schools you will find:

9 6A Schools

3 5A Schools

2 4A Schools

1 3A Schools

When you have double the male enrollment you have double the number of athletes which makes it a lot easier to fill all the weight classes with athletic kids. It also makes it a lot easier to to qualify 12-14 kids for the state tourny. Even if those kids don't place they could score a lot of points if each of them win one or two matches. I'm sure Trinity and St. X have more kids come out for wrestling than Wayne Co., Sheldon Clark, and North Oldham have come out for their football teams.

LaRue is/was the smallest school in 4A when we went to the new classification in football. It was something like 1 or 2 male students that kept them from being 3A. Plus LaRue is in the small school division at State Tournament.

Your right my bad it should read:

Large Schools- 1320

Small Schools- 435

That is still an 885 point swing toward the large schools

Two Surprises or shockers:

See'n Woodford out of the TOP ten after being 6th last year,

See'n North Hardin in the TOP ten after finishing 30th last year.

This might be the best idea I've heard in the debate about this.  The coaches association runs it anyhow and they are the ones who are trying to impose it.  Make it two eight team brackets and you essentially have the same result in terms of time and planning.  If you want to make it interesting allow small schools to "bump up" and wrestle in the large school division.

How would the Region Dual qualifying work if it was split into small/large school?

How would the Region Dual qualifying work if it was split into small/large school?

I get to select the teams that qualify.  :evil:

West Virginia runs a pretty good two class system with about 95 teams total. So you are looking at forty some teams per class with a sixteen man bracket in each weight class. They have the state tournament on the same weekend at the same venue. Here is what our state tournament looked like this year as far as the size of schools. I only went as deep as the top 15 schools.

1. Trinity 232 6A

2. Ryle 204 6A

3. Union 129 3A

4. Johnson Central 128.5 5A

5. Larue 120 4A

6. Campbell County 117.5 6A

7. Wayne County 116 3A

8. John Hardin 99 5A

9. St. X 94 6A

10. North Hardin 78.5 6A

11. Woodford 77.5 5A

12. South Oldham 75 5A

13. Southern 73.5 6A

14. Whitley County 70.5 5A

15. Seneca 70 6A

15. Sheldon Clark 70 3A

That adds up to:

6A- 869.5

5A- 450.5

4A- 120

3A- 315

2A- 0

1A- 0

If this were splt into Large School/Small School you would have:

Large School- 1440

Small School- 315

I would say that the larger schools in our state are more than a little further ahead of our small schools.

How would you feel if you were the "state champ" of a division that only had 40 teams?  Also throw in the fact that many teams can't field a full lineup.  So now you are really a state champ of something like 25-30 people.  Quite an accomplishment if you ask me.

How would you feel if you were the "state champ" of a division that only had 40 teams?  Also throw in the fact that many teams can't field a full lineup.  So now you are really a state champ of something like 25-30 people.  Quite an accomplishment if you ask me.

It would definitely take away a lot of the drama and excitement of the state tournament.

I'm just looking at this from a growth stand point. I know that it would take away from some excitement at first. But in the long run I think some smaller schools would be more willing to start a program if they thought they could compete within the first few years of having a team. We are starting to see great success come out of having a middle school organization but to only have eighty some teams in the entire state is kind of dissappointing. Some state have eighty some teams per division. I know some people say "well how will you know who the best in the state is?". I say have a large school/small school state champ dual the weekend after the state tournament. That would be very interesting to watch.

Lowsingle what exactly are you trying to say?

As I have mentioned.  Small schools can and do compete.  Maybe not the team but the individuals do.

If you want the small teams to have a competiteve chance "team wise" then do what basketball does.  Have an all small classic sort of like the all "A" cassic.

I really don't think schools are dropping or not starting programs because the team can't compete.  If this was true there would be no more new teams in 6A football because they can't compete with X and Trinity.

Lowsingle what exactly are you trying to say?

As I have mentioned.  Small schools can and do compete.  Maybe not the team but the individuals do.

If you want the small teams to have a competiteve chance "team wise" then do what basketball does.  Have an all small classic sort of like the all "A" cassic.

I really don't think schools are dropping or not starting programs because the team can't compete.  If this was true there would be no more new teams in 6A football because they can't compete with X and Trinity.

Some small school individuals can compete such as larue, wayne, sheldon clark, union, and north oldham. But out of the 112 state placers this year the numbers look like this.

6A- 55 placers

5A- 25 placers

4A- 10 placers

3A- 18 placers

2A- 2 placers

1A- 2 placers

Including Larue with the small schools it turns out that,

Large Schools had 85 placers

Small Schools had 27 placers

Also out of the 28 elite state finalist,

Large Schools had 21 finalest

Small Schools had 7 finalst

I agree with Lowsingle. When you live in a small community, there are slim pickings as far as getting individuals out for wrestling. If small schools could compete against other small schools, it would give the wrestlers more of an incentive to improve on their skill because of a higher chance of success. It would give the wrestlers hope. Ultimately drawing more kids out for our sport.

I'm not completely sure on this but I believe that there are only about 3 states that have a state tournament that isn't divided by classes. Those states to my knowledge are:    California with a total state population of about 38 million

Pennsylvania with a state population of 12 1/2 million

Kentucky with a total state population of around 4 million

(I am just going by what I was told this by a California wrestler at nationals. Please correct me if I'm wrong)

2 out of those 3 states have pretty good success on the national level. The other, unfortunately, not so much.

The population indicates that Kentucky compared to California and Pennsylvania just does not have enough wrestlers to make most teams on a competitive level. I think that is why other states have adopted the method of a class systemand have had "more" success nationally. It brings more attention to the sport. If a small town hears about their local highschool team winning a state championship it sparks interest. The community is likely to get involved and follow. More kids would be interested in the sport. That would ultimately mean more participants in the sport. More participants means a greater chance of national recognition.

That sounds about right to me then.  considering that the large schools have the majority of the wrestlers competing then they would also have the majority of the wrestlers placing.

Example.

If there are 32 wrestlers in a bracket.

24 are from large schools

8 are from small schools

If everything is equal then 6 of the placers should be large school and 2 placers should be small school 3 to 1 odds.

The object is to get improve wrestling.  Not water it down.  More does not always mean better.  Even though I want wrestling to grow in KY.  I don't want it watered down in the process.  If I were Larue or Wayne then I would not want to be in the small school division, especially if they have been competing with the large schools already. It only hurts their program because they don't compete against the best of the best.

Lets look at getting more ex-wrestlers involved in the sport.  After graduation many leave the sport only to return when they have kids wrestling.  We need to get them on the mat coaching high school, middle school, or elementary school wrestling.  Or more importantly putting on the stripes and officiating.  Ex-wrestlers returning to the mat to help out the team also helps. 

You can also get these alumni out to start new programs at other schools.

I'm not sure about this but I believe football programs are allowed to play up a class or two on a two year basis. If they are a 3A school they can play up in 4A or 5A for two seasons after which they are given a chance to either stay or go back down. This could be down with wrestling as well let the more competitive small schools wrestle up for two years then give them a chance to either stay or come back down. I'm really not trying to start any arguments on here or get anyone upset I'm just suggesting a way to help grow the sport of wrestling in this state. I believe that a small schools state duals or even an All "A" wrestling classic would be a great way to get something like this going and it also gives the smaller schools something to look forward to as a team.

Not to sound ignorant, but what classifies a

Coming from the smallest wrestling school in the state (300 kids k-12), I can tell you that we don't have a problem with the system as it is.  Sure, we aren't able to compete in a dual tournament since we don't field a full 14 man roster, but our wrestlers want to compete against the best individually.  If we went to a small school division our better wrestlers wouldn't have the opportunity to wrestle for the "true" state championship individually.  The small school division would always have an asterisk beside it. 

On the other hand, if there was a tournament like basketball's "All - A Classic" during the season, I'm sure we would participate.  The problem is, there aren't many "A" schools who have wrestling.

Coming from the smallest wrestling school in the state (300 kids k-12), I can tell you that we don't have a problem with the system as it is.  Sure, we aren't able to compete in a dual tournament since we don't field a full 14 man roster, but our wrestlers want to compete against the best individually.  If we went to a small school division our better wrestlers wouldn't have the opportunity to wrestle for the "true" state championship individually.  The small school division would always have an asterisk beside it. 

On the other hand, if there was a tournament like basketball's "All - A Classic" during the season, I'm sure we would participate.  The problem is, there aren't many "A" schools who have wrestling.

this is how i thought the small school individuals would feel.

As for the "Small School Classic" It would need to include all the small schools however they are determined.  (They determined the small schools one year by just splitting the schools in half by population.) I don't know what the criteria is now.

I don't know how you would decide who attends this tourney.  How do they determine the participants in the "All-A classic" for basketball?

I'm pretty much in the middle, I like letting the guys that want to wrestle against the big schools for a championship do that. However, I see why the small guys would want to wrestle in a smaller division, you have less depth in the room to train and get better. How can a team with 10 wrestlers compete with someone with 80 and 2,000 male bodies in the school? Larue, Union, Sheldon Clark, and Wayne County are out of the ordinary small schools. Of course they can compete, they have an established program with very strong tradition AND youth programs for years. What about the small schools without strong community support and tradition? Where do they stand? Ask a AA football team how they feel about winning a state football championship. I guarantee you NO ONE is saying... oh but X or Trinity would kill you... how does that make you feel? To that community, trust me, it still means a lot.

And although there is all that argument about depth, I'm still torn about the argument about how it will help increase wrestling programs. Does anyone know of a school AD that is saying they won't start a program because they can't compete? I don't really see any proof or data that says it in fact will increase growth.

Look at West Virginia... they have 86 teams. 40 AAA and 46 A/AA. They split in 1977 and Kentucky has pretty much the same number of teams as them following in the low 80's. Now, if you told me WV had over 120 teams, and that the number increased by a large amount after the split, sure, then I have data telling me that classification does in fact promote growth, however, I just don't see any numbers backing up this argument.

This should obviously be a subject that is thought through very carefully... especially since once you split, there will be no going back.

Wrestling is different than football.  I agree the divisions in football are necessary for obvious reasons.  However, I maintain that an individual on a 10 man team can compete with an individual on an 80 man team in wrestling.  Sure, it is more difficult and the lack of training partners is a disadvantage, but such is life.  Myself, I enjoy being the underdog.

I'm pretty much in the middle, I like letting the guys that want to wrestle against the big schools for a championship do that. However, I see why the small guys would want to wrestle in a smaller division, you have less depth in the room to train and get better. How can a team with 10 wrestlers compete with someone with 80 and 2,000 male bodies in the school? Larue, Union, Sheldon Clark, and Wayne County are out of the ordinary small schools. Of course they can compete, they have an established program with very strong tradition AND youth programs for years. What about the small schools without strong community support and tradition? Where do they stand? Ask a AA football team how they feel about winning a state football championship. I guarantee you NO ONE is saying... oh but X or Trinity would kill you... how does that make you feel? To that community, trust me, it still means a lot.

And although there is all that argument about depth, I'm still torn about the argument about how it will help increase wrestling programs. Does anyone know of a school AD that is saying they won't start a program because they can't compete? I don't really see any proof or data that says it in fact will increase growth.

Look at West Virginia... they have 86 teams. 40 AAA and 46 A/AA. They split in 1977 and Kentucky has pretty much the same number of teams as them following in the low 80's. Now, if you told me WV had over 120 teams, and that the number increased by a large amount after the split, sure, then I have data telling me that classification does in fact promote growth, however, I just don't see any numbers backing up this argument.

This should obviously be a subject that is thought through very carefully... especially since once you split, there will be no going back.

Ok, so West Virginia has roughly the same amount of wrestling teams as Kentucky. Now look at this statistic. Total population of Kentucky 4.2 million. Total Population of West Virginia 1.8 million. So a state with not even half of the population of ours is putting out around the same amount of participants. I wonder why?

Wrestling is different than football.  I agree the divisions in football are necessary for obvious reasons.  However, I maintain that an individual on a 10 man team can compete with an individual on an 80 man team in wrestling.  Sure, it is more difficult and the lack of training partners is a disadvantage, but such is life.  Myself, I enjoy being the underdog.

I'm with you.  Football is so different.  If there were no class system they would have 6 months of playoffs given the number of participating teams.

I'm with you.  Football is so different.  If there were no class system they would have 6 months of playoffs given the number of participating teams.

Would there be as many teams if there were no class system?

Ok, so West Virginia has roughly the same amount of wrestling teams as Kentucky. Now look at this statistic. Total population of Kentucky 4.2 million. Total Population of West Virginia 1.8 million. So a state with not even half of the population of ours is putting out around the same amount of participants. I wonder why?

Good point, but what Mathound is saying is that WV has not seen growth since going to a class system.  So that isn't necessarily the answer.  I personally think we are well on our way.  Look at the participation at youth state this year.  Given all of the talk about how the association went the wrong direction with holding the state tournament on Sunday after HS state (with some very valid points), the turnout was still amazing.  And I would guess that middle school participation is growing as well.  What we really need most, and has already been mentioned a thousand times by others (so I won't take any credit), is support from alumni.  We need more/better officials around the state and we need more coaches to help support these new and growing youth teams.  It may not be glamorous, but it is extremely important to the growth in KY to give these little guys the help they need and to help our programs run well so parents and kids have a good experience.

Would there be as many teams if there were no class system?

I believe the number would be about the same.  Case in point.  Bishop Brossart recently (last few years) started both a football and wrestling team.  Did they do because they thought they would immediately compete for a state title (or ever)?  No way.  Even in class A, they will likely never challenge.  They did it because they knew it was a draw for students.  That is the case for almost every extracurricular activity.  They don't usually make money as an activity (with a few exceptions, eg, football, basketball), but they draw in and keep students in the school.

Good point, but what Mathound is saying is that WV has not seen growth since going to a class system.  So that isn't necessarily the answer.  I personally think we are well on our way.  Look at the participation at youth state this year.  Given all of the talk about how the association went the wrong direction with holding the state tournament on Sunday after HS state (with some very valid points), the turnout was still amazing.  And I would guess that middle school participation is growing as well.  What we really need most, and has already been mentioned a thousand times by others (so I won't take any credit), is support from alumni.  We need more/better officials around the state and we need more coaches to help support these new and growing youth teams.  It may not be glamorous, but it is extremely important to the growth in KY to give these little guys the help they need and to help our programs run well so parents and kids have a good experience.

He said that West Virginia split in 1977. I'm sure that the teams have grown pretty fairly since then. On the other hand, it would probably be hard to figure out how many teams they had in 77.

It's suposed to be hard to earn an individual state title.  However it is already alot easier to eanr one in Kentucky then in many other states.  Quite frankly "kentucky State Champ' does not carry the same weight with college coaches as "Ohoi State Champ" or "Pennsylvanial State Champ"  If you put all other criterial aside, college coaches know you only have to be the best of about 80 kids to win in Kentucky. Each division in Ohio has about 180 teams and they have 3 divisions for wrestling.  I think if we split this already small pool further we are devaluing our individual champs.

He said that West Virginia split in 1977. I'm sure that the teams have grown pretty fairly since then. On the other hand, it would probably be hard to figure out how many teams they had in 77.

Yeah, I'm not sure how many teams they had before the split, so I can't put a number on how many teams they have added. Like I said, I'm in the middle. Both arguments seem to level out for me.

He said that West Virginia split in 1977. I'm sure that the teams have grown pretty fairly since then. On the other hand, it would probably be hard to figure out how many teams they had in 77.

I have no idea.  Any WV experts out there have any history lessons for us?  I assume they see some benefit to it or they would have gone back to no class system in the last 30 years.  I am generally not a fan of the "build it and they will come" approach.  Two classes of 40 teams seems like a joke to me and would further diminish our standing outside the state.  For those who are not aware, when we seed our kids in OH, our state placers are considered on the same level as their district placers (tournaments using Baumspage).  For example, Harrison Courtney as a senior 3-time state champ, gets seeded behind a kid who placed 8th in OH.  That is the value they place on our post season.  Split that and it is even lower.

I have no idea.  Any WV experts out there have any history lessons for us?  I assume they see some benefit to it or they would have gone back to no class system in the last 30 years.  I am generally not a fan of the "build it and they will come" approach.  Two classes of 40 teams seems like a joke to me and would further diminish our standing outside the state.  For those who are not aware, when we seed our kids in OH, our state placers are considered on the same level as their district placers (tournaments using Baumspage).  For example, Harrison Courtney as a senior 3-time state champ, gets seeded behind a kid who placed 8th in OH.  That is the value they place on our post season.  Split that and it is even lower.

We'll see what the KHSAA has to say.  I've submitted a proposal to split intoo two divisions.  My AD backed it, and so did the surrounding AD's.  We'll see.

As an ex-coach of a small school.  I hope they shoot it down. 

Would North Oldham be considered a small school?

I have no idea.  Any WV experts out there have any history lessons for us?  I assume they see some benefit to it or they would have gone back to no class system in the last 30 years.  I am generally not a fan of the "build it and they will come" approach.  Two classes of 40 teams seems like a joke to me and would further diminish our standing outside the state.  For those who are not aware, when we seed our kids in OH, our state placers are considered on the same level as their district placers (tournaments using Baumspage).  For example, Harrison Courtney as a senior 3-time state champ, gets seeded behind a kid who placed 8th in OH.  That is the value they place on our post season.  Split that and it is even lower.

Courtney did win it, right?

As an ex-coach of a small school.  I hope they shoot it down. 

Would North Oldham be considered a small school?

As a coach and fan of this sport, I hope they don't, or if they do they at least use it as a talking point for some the growth of our sport over the next couple of years.

Ultimately, I am tired of armchair debate between coaches at state and then doing nothing about it.  This is not the only proposal I have submitted.  I have also submitted proposals for:

- Changing the food policies/ vending at the state tournament

- an option to go back to a 16 man bracket at state

- 2 differant redistricting plans

I got fed up this year when we had our coaches meeting and NOTHING that we had spoke of over the last year was changed.  Not to mention the KWCA still was not a viable entity for change in the state.

So I figured why COMPLAIN when I could do something about it.

As an ex-coach of a small school.  I hope they shoot it down. 

Would North Oldham be considered a small school?

Under my proposal it would be up to the state and member school togather.  In a nutshell one division is 6A and 5A, the next division is 1A, 2A  with 3A and 4A being determined in a joint decision by the state and member school. 

I looked up the schools listed as having wrestling teams in KY.  The number of teams according to KHSAA is 82.  (I know this is not 100% accurate)

Here is the breakdown

1A=5 schools

2A=7 Schools

3A=9 schools

4A=13 schools

5A=21 schools

6A=26 schools

That would equal

Small school 12

Large school 47

Undecided 22

And my hope is we can add more of these smaller schools.  1A, 2A, 3A schools could really benefit from a wrestling program.  If we sell it from the angle that you don't have to be a massive school to compete, we can build these smaller schools. 

This is something I think the KWCA can do, and I mean actually do if the coaches are willing to look outside their own programs and help build more programs by selling it to the administrations of these schools.  I know that I, and a group of other coaches have aggressively pushed this in other school districts and will continue to do so.  If we can get more coaches to take up this banner and at least go to neighboring schools, or even schools in their district and encourage this growth, 100 teams is not unresonable and could be achieved in a few years.

the 5A and 6A schools will make their own decisions without outside influence IMHO... look at Male and Highlands, or Lexington Catholic.  Instead of worrying what kind of team Male 'could' put togather, let's instead keep promoting wrestling at these smaller schools, especially in the Western KY region.  Jefferson Co, Hardin, Oldham, and Northern KY have the bulk of the programs.  Let's spread the wealth, and as coaches let's do what we can to encourage this growth.

I know the 4 proposals I have put forth to the KHSAA won't be considered, they never seem to be at least.  However, I do truly hope they  look at these measures and start asking some questions:

- how do we grow the sport among the smaller schools

- how do we grow the sport in western ky

- how do we grow more officials

- what role can the KWCA play in this

- how do we continue to grow the sport statewide

The KHSAA does not care how we compete or 'stack up' nationally, so let's get off that idea and focus on building more programs.  It's a simple idea= more programs = more participants = more future coaches = better wrestling in KY in the long run.

This is what we've been doing for a few years, I just think let's keep the ball moving forward with some real speed and effort.  Your generations state tournament had what, 30-40 teams total in the state?  Now we're double it.  Let's triple it.

By the time we have some serious numbers 100, 120, 130 programs, then we realistically look at splitting the pool.

Or maybe the KHSAA will take my proposal, but I doubt it.

once again I feel didivding our state into 40  (or 30)  team divisions will definately hurt the overall level of competition in our state as well as diminish what the term state champion means in this state

I have another point to mention. If there were 2 divisions, there would be 4 state finalist eligible for senior nationals. We would double our input at the national level. And for those who say it strips the meaning of state champ, that is why they go to nationals and prove theirselves.

I have another point to mention. If there were 2 divisions, there would be 4 state finalist eligible for senior nationals. We would double our input at the national level. And for those who say it strips the meaning of state champ, that is why they go to nationals and prove theirselves.

Or maybe we can have 40 divisions and take everyone............like YMCA soccer - nobody loses. :roll:

Or maybe we can have 40 divisions and take everyone............like YMCA soccer - nobody loses. :roll:

But that doesn't take into account the jv kids that just weren't good enough to crack the lineup.  What are you going to do for those kids?  HUH?  Or the kids at MYSCHOOLSUCKS High who don't have a wrestling team.  Come on, you can think of a better plan to get everyone a medal.

so what we are all saying is the best plan is to keep lowering the bar instead of raising it and it will work out better :-(

Look, if you can't get the larger schools like Male, Henderson Cty, Ballard, Butler, Lex Cath, etc with all of their resources, how are you going to sell the smaller schools? These efforts and energies should be concentrated at devolping the youth programs. That is when and where the demand will be created.

I think with Coach's proposal he could be successful but, what's that mean if we have a system off 120 teams like KCD's?

Other teams will rise when communities are interested. 

when the large school in the area is successfully or at least is successfully. The smaller schools surrounding that school get interested in wrestling.

When parents and kids intermingle with each other and one group of parents are constantly talking about wrestling then the parents of the school without wrestling start getting interested. 

Example:  In Campbell Co. Newport started a team.  The interest was founded because the kids and parents of Newport were hanging out with kids from Campbell Co. and probably Holmes.  Both which have teams.  Bishop Brossart started a team because the kids were living next door to kids that go to Campbell Co. and wrestle. 

So yes the youth is the way to go.  Get those kids that don't attend wrestling schools interested in wrestling, then the parents get involved.  If you want a school to start a team the first place to start is with the parents of that school.

As a dad of a son that goes to a class 1A school, I would not like to see a split. We have  8 wrestlers, 3 duplicate weights, so we know going in we will not win any duel or duel tournaments. But even though we wont win the duel, it is very motivating for our kids to win against the kids from bigger schools.

I just think that having a split would leave a void in state victory if you did not have all schools in one tournament.

I agree with Lowsingle. When you live in a small community, there are slim pickings as far as getting individuals out for wrestling. If small schools could compete against other small schools, it would give the wrestlers more of an incentive to improve on their skill because of a higher chance of success. It would give the wrestlers hope. Ultimately drawing more kids out for our sport.

I'm not completely sure on this but I believe that there are only about 3 states that have a state tournament that isn't divided by classes. Those states to my knowledge are:    California with a total state population of about 38 million

Pennsylvania with a state population of 12 1/2 million

Kentucky with a total state population of around 4 million

(I am just going by what I was told this by a California wrestler at nationals. Please correct me if I'm wrong)

2 out of those 3 states have pretty good success on the national level. The other, unfortunately, not so much.

The population indicates that Kentucky compared to California and Pennsylvania just does not have enough wrestlers to make most teams on a competitive level. I think that is why other states have adopted the method of a class systemand have had "more" success nationally. It brings more attention to the sport. If a small town hears about their local highschool team winning a state championship it sparks interest. The community is likely to get involved and follow. More kids would be interested in the sport. That would ultimately mean more participants in the sport. More participants means a greater chance of national recognition.

Pennsylvania has more than one class for wrestling. Indiana only has one class for 311 schools that have wrestling teams.

Wrestlers don't want to be one of three or four state champs- they want to be THE state champ. If you're going to divide everyone up, then I suggest the state meet finish with all the division champions wrestling one another to determine the best. THEN you have a state champion. (In other words, I think the idea of this, for wrestling, is ridiculous- let the young men wrestle.)

I have listened (read) and the MAIN problem is MONEY, most programs do not bring in enough money for the school to even think about a wrestling program (growth) I mean where has everybody been? most schools have a travel limit set, cutting teachers, Principals, funding in general. So the main problem is that most smaller schools only involve themselves with sports that generate funding, and still they have to have Booster  Funding to survive, I know of schools that make football teams take care of their own fields, (seeding, mowing , ect) so let us be honest, lack of funding, Parents without jobs, let it rest. Be smart , there will be no growth until  the State recovers, until the Country recovers, until wrestling can be self reliant, and by the way you do know that if a team reaches the State tournament in football, they get a piece of the pie , wrestling you pay for it all, all the way, and I hope that everyone who has ALL of the money to provide for the excellent programs, remember that with excellent funding, and facilities, and a athletic base to pick and chose from, it is a whole lot easier to rise to the top, it is not a big surprise that large schools win championships, and have individuals that  are the cream of the crop, again better training partners, better facilities,  better equipment, I know this does not mean instant success, but it sure does help, if money, and a large athletic base to choose from and facilities does not  matter, would you turn it down as a Coach? if offered?  I have no problem with larger schools and people that can afford them, I think they are giving their kids a chance to be successful and that is what all of us should do, but let us be honest and stop with all of the changes and let us try to get through the problems we already have, and bring this to the table when it is feasible, when the schools are even capable of buying the wrestling team uniforms, and pay for the tournaments that they  enter, and maybe a MAT to train on that is NOT from the 80's,  that is what we need to get through, not growth and splitting the classes...........of course this is my opinion strictly

Wrestlers don't want to be one of three or four state champs- they want to be THE state champ. If you're going to divide everyone up, then I suggest the state meet finish with all the division champions wrestling one another to determine the best. THEN you have a state champion. (In other words, I think the idea of this, for wrestling, is ridiculous- let the young men wrestle.)

I like the idea of a final meeting. But as for the wrestlers not wanting to be one of 2 state champs (Keep in mind that Kentucky does not have enough for more than 2 divisions), I think your wrong. I believe there are plenty of kids that would love the opportunity to have the title of state champ. In my opinion I think that competition within the smaller schools would increase because the prize of state champion would be more achievable. Same thing with large schools. Besides, you could take the top 8 from the small school state tourny and top 8 from large school and make a 16 man bracket for a final tournament.

This final tourney that has been passed around. 

Will never happen.  A kid who has worked his rear end off to become a state champion, and finally achieves this goal, will not have enough determination to actually go to or wrestle his best at a "Finals tourney".

Yeah so if I'm the best kid in my weight class from o pool of about 30 schools I get to say I'm a state champ.  Wow were back to lets just give a medal to everyone and call them a state champ

This final tourney that has been passed around. 

Will never happen.  A kid who has worked his rear end off to become a state champion, and finally achieves this goal, will not have enough determination to actually go to or wrestle his best at a "Finals tourney".

I'm sure they would not care to prove theirselves. Thats like saying, Why would a state champ return the next year to defend his title? Does everyone who works their rear off and achieves their dream give up? I don't think so. They step up to the challenge. Thats what separates the good from the bad. You have to be willing to step up. And if not, I'm sorry to say but your in the wrong sport. I don't want to argue, but I feel that 2 divisions would help our state out. Other states have had success from it. I think it would do the same for us.

way back when.  I believe it was Fern Creek, had a tourney the week after state.  They had hoped that state placers and champs would attend and challenge themselves again.  Never happened. 

Maybe you are correct, kids would show up. But it would be like those kids who lost in the semi's.  Their dream can not be reached.  They wrestle hard but their hart is not in it. 

I think kids would go to this tourney saying. "I'm gonna see if I can beat this guy.  If I do great, but it really doesn't matter I'm already this years state champion."  They would treat it like a summer tourney.

I don't think 2 divisions would help our state. Other states have success from one division so can we.

Indiana did the same thing in basketball. They went from a single state champ to a four class system and had the same idea you did, they would get all the state champs together and play for a single title. They did this for a few years then found out that there was no interest in it. Now they just have four state champs and i bet if they had to do it over again they would leave it like it was.

We already have a small school state champ why would you need to change so kids can say they won a state title. If you are worried about a wrestler from a small school winning a state title then i guess they should give out a small school individual title to the wrestler that placed the highest at state.

Somebody tell me why they think a kid from a small school needs to wrestle against only "small school wrestlers" for a state championship.  The last time I checked, there was a requirement that they all weigh the same.  And don't give me the excuse that small teams make it impossible to train and compete against the bigger schools.  Sure, it is more difficult - but good wrestlers enjoy the challenge.  The only reason I can think of is to make it easier for some of the small schools.  Wrestling isn't supposed to be easy. We need to increase the level of competition instead of watering it down.  And this is coming from a very small school.

I just think a division split would give small schools for of an incentive to compete. I predict that the competition level would rise within small schools. More competition creates better wrestlers. Just my thoughts..

I just think a division split would give small schools for of an incentive to compete. I predict that the competition level would rise within small schools. More competition creates better wrestlers. Just my thoughts..

If that is the case then why isn't NBA Basketball better. They have started several new teams but the NBA has gotten worse. The same teams win year after year and the league is watered down. I guess they should have a big city and a small city NBA champions so the league will grow. At least that is what you are saying. If you have a small school state championship the same schools will win year after year and you are left with the same argument you have now, so do you split again to give the small small small schools a chance. Work your butt off and get better that is how you win.

I don't think you can really compare the NBA to small school wrestling. Last time I checked NBA'ers went where the money and glory was, not to the smallest fish in the market.

I hope there is no real effort to establish divisions. Theres just not enough kids. State is watered down enough already by allowing 4 kids from 8 divisions, approx 1/2 of all wrestlers qualify now. Divisions would further diminish the achievement of qualifying and placing at state. Give em all a trophy if you must, but dont divide into divisions.

I don't think you can really compare the NBA to small school wrestling. Last time I checked NBA'ers went where the money and glory was, not to the smallest fish in the market.

You missed my point. The NBA thought that it would be better if they added more teams and it back fired. The only thing that happened was the league as a whole has gotten a lot weaker and it isn't Worth watching anymore.  That is what will happen to wrestling if you go to a two class system, wrestling will go backwards.

The small school guys already have "incentive" ...to win state. I hate to ruin this but I believe Union County would be a "small school." So your scenario is already shot. I remember my college days on full ride athletic scholarship- winning something small  was not nearly as satisfying as placing at something BIG. If we're teaching these kids that the only important thing is the hardware on their necks, it's the wrong message. And we as coaches and parents need to be better than that.

Large school, small school, it really doesn't matter.  What matters is the level of commitment the schools have for their programs.  Graham is a division 2 school and dominates all over the state.  If you push your school to support the program and pony up yourself with money or participation, the program will get better over time.  Over time means several years which most people are unwilling or unable to do.  Woodford County and Union County have been in the mix forever with Trinity and Ryle relative newcomers 10 plus years.  Wrestling is still the most fair sport around.  There is no special equipment a pair of shoes, headgear or singlet that make you a better wrestler.  We don't have nearly enough schools to have more than one division.  Since no one has

kids going to several different schools the best thing that we can do for the sport is support it whole heartedly at the one's our kids are enrolled.  When they have fund raisers or need help with tourneys, dig in.  If there is a meet at another school in your area go and show your support.  This how the sport will grow.

You're right I did miss your point there dagger. I believe as well that Kentucky doesn't need 2 divisions until there are awhole lot more schools participating. I was a small school guy that loved competing against the big schools. You feel more accomplished. I knew to get any better I needed to wrestle the best, whether they were bigger schools or not. I agree with ryledad that we have to generate support before we can grow. Grow together and help the smaller schools. Even if that means sharing buses and practice facilities or whatever you got to do. Show kids what it means to be a family in wrestling and I think more will catch on and enjoy what we already know to be true.

Large school, small school, it really doesn't matter.  What matters is the level of commitment the schools have for their programs.  Graham is a division 2 school and dominates all over the state.  If you push your school to support the program and pony up yourself with money or participation, the program will get better over time.  Over time means several years which most people are unwilling or unable to do.  Woodford County and Union County have been in the mix forever with Trinity and Ryle relative newcomers 10 plus years.  Wrestling is still the most fair sport around.  There is no special equipment a pair of shoes, headgear or singlet that make you a better wrestler.  We don't have nearly enough schools to have more than one division.  Since no one has

kids going to several different schools the best thing that we can do for the sport is support it whole heartedly at the one's our kids are enrolled.  When they have fund raisers or need help with tourneys, dig in.  If there is a meet at another school in your area go and show your support.  This how the sport will grow.

Great comments, I agree, we must improve our programs to spark interest. I see it starting to happen, but we can't let up.