i think it would be awesome if we was to seed the state tournament this year. Does anyone else think so?

better wrestlers could just walk thru the state tournment that way it wouldn't be fair i think that should just go on the way it is

better wrestlers could just walk thru the state tournment that way it wouldn't be fair i think that should just go on the way it is

So are you suggesting it would be better to have all of the good kids on one side of the bracket and the average kids on the other?  And there is a better chance that someone walks through the state tournament with an easy draw with the current setup than if it were seeded.

the state tournament will never be seeded for 1 reason:

1) we aren't there to see who finishes 2-8. We are there to crown 14 individual CHAMPIONS.

yes there are kids who prolly would never medal if we seeded the tournament, but honestly, if you want to blame you getting beat before the medal rounds on your draw alone, you have other issues imho.

You can also look at cases like Mike Nolan where he wouldn't have been seeded very high being a JV wrestler up to that point

Just my two cents, but the wrestlers that have attained the best records and wrestled the best competition should be seeded higher and they should be meeting in the semi's and finals instead of the quarter finals.  The argument that lesser wrestler should receive a random draw and an opportunity is just not right, just my opinion.

the state tournament will never be seeded for 1 reason:

1) we aren't there to see who finishes 2-8. We are there to crown 14 individual CHAMPIONS.

yes there are kids who prolly would never medal if we seeded the tournament, but honestly, if you want to blame you getting beat before the medal rounds on your draw alone, you have other issues imho.

One thing you forgot about my friend is money.  If crowning 14 champs was the only reason them we wouldn't have a 32 man bracket.  My only gripe for seeding, and I know GOO totally disagrees, is that I think making it to the finals and under the lights is important.  I hate to see the obvious 2 best guys wrestle in the quarters or semis.  The finals are such an awesome event and it is a disappointment to watch it thinking the real final was wrestled earlier.

I think Kentucky needs to follow the same format as Tennessee. Put all your region winners in as your seeding breaking up your state medalists. The medalists would be your "Seeded" wrestlers. Then go through and put 1 vs. 4; 2 vs 3. If you wrestler who is a former state medalist and lose in the region finals against someone than they will be put against a 2 vs. 3 and if they advance to the second round they will have to face a returning medalist.

This method would work perfectly in my opinion. makes for exciting wrestling.

One thing you forgot about my friend is money.  If crowning 14 champs was the only reason them we wouldn't have a 32 man bracket.  My only gripe for seeding, and I know GOO totally disagrees, is that I think making it to the finals and under the lights is important.  I hate to see the obvious 2 best guys wrestle in the quarters or semis.  The finals are such an awesome event and it is a disappointment to watch it thinking the real final was wrestled earlier.

yes money is a big issue.

Now, i had the pleasure of attending 5 or 6 of the past 8 NCAA D1 Tournaments. The finals were exciting yes, but the BEST WRESTLING I saw while I was at each one was the quarter finals and semi finals rounds. I honestly believe the best wrestling in our state tournament is both those rounds as well. Think about this: the winners in the quarter finals are GUARANTEED a top 6 medal. The semi finals winners are GUARANTEED a top 2 medal. You can

what i meany was that they should do it and give wreslers that get 1st in their regions that aren't all that great should have some what of a chance even i because if they place that high in their region for an example some wretsler wins their region and has to face the number one kid in the state just isn't fair at alll

what i meany was that they should do it and give wreslers that get 1st in their regions that aren't all that great should have some what of a chance even i because if they place that high in their region for an example some wretsler wins their region and has to face the number one kid in the state just isn't fair at alll

No, my theory has always been the 8 region champs get seeded.  The rest fill in the way we do it today, seperating the 1 and 2 from a region and the region champs don't meet until the quarters and semis.  So 112 kids get seeded and the rest fall into place by the draw essentially as we do it today.

i think that the region champs and the runner ups should be seeded because the runner ups would have to face the region champ first round like last year john lampe was a runner up could that would be tough for a region champ

i think that the region champs and the runner ups should be seeded because the runner ups would have to face the region champ first round like last year john lampe was a runner up could that would be tough for a region champ

No it is always 1 vs 4 and 2 vs 3 in the first round.

The reality is any seeding system, criteria or meeting is going to have flaws and will do some wrestler injustice, At least our current system does not have a person with some bias or preconceived criteria trying to make these decisions.  The biggest complaint against our system is that the 2 best kids don't automatically see each other in the finals but you what.  If you want to get to the finals you should beat the kid to get there  It should not be given to you that you get to the finals because you are the second best kid in that weight class.  Life itself is not perfectly fair and that in itself can be a good (if hard) lesson and you learn.  If we really want to help our state tournament GET BETTER REFS

If we really want to help our state tournament GET BETTER REFS

Dont put yourself in the position where the ref decides the match

Since Ranger pulled my name into this conversation I will make my reply.

What I disagree with ranger is why everyone thinks it is important.  And they believe it is important because of team points. 

Seeding would be unfair to that one outstanding stud on a weak team.  He will have an excelant record however will not wrestler top notch kids.  this does not happen often but it can happen.  Just because he wrestles for a weak team and they don't go to the tough tourneys for the good of the other wrestlers, why should he be punished?

I like the upsets.  Seed kids and upsets will not occur as often.  You give the PERCIEVED best wrestler the easiest rout to the state finals.  Why shouldn't everyone get that same opportunity.  Just because someone is PERCIEVED as the best wrestler by most does not mean he is the best wrestler at that wt. class.

Just my 2 cents worth. :-o

This is the opinion of GOO take it or leave it.

My opinion doesn't matter on the grand scale of things anyway. :-D

Seeding would be unfair to that one outstanding stud on a weak team.  He will have an excelant record however will not wrestler top notch kids.  this does not happen often but it can happen.  Just because he wrestles for a weak team and they don't go to the tough tourneys for the good of the other wrestlers, why should he be punished?

This is the opinion of GOO take it or leave it.

My opinion doesn't matter on the grand scale of things anyway. :-D

You just said this doesn't happen often...It would be silly to make an exception for those one or two kids

They seed in ncca college wrestling and it works pretty dam well also you think it would be fair to put Metcalf, Palmer, Ruscell ,and  Jenkins all on one side off the bracket i adleast hope you dont .......just because its high school doesn't mean you should cheat people from a fair shot at the finals

NCAA is nothing like high school wrestling.

1.  They have a much better ranking system (Sorry Ranger)

2.  Teams are required to wrestle in certain tourneys and are able to get their wrestlers, or at least their better wrestlers to tougher tourneys. 

As for the fair part if it is not fair for some then it is not worth doing.  At least the way we are doing it now everyone has an equel change of getting an easy or hard draw. 

Once again I contend that if team points were not involved very few people would be concerned about it. 

This is the opinion of GOO and only GOO

Take it or leave it, it really doesn't matter.

Goo out.

NCAA is nothing like high school wrestling.

1.  They have a much better ranking system (Sorry Ranger)

2.  Teams are required to wrestle in certain tourneys and are able to get their wrestlers, or at least their better wrestlers to tougher tourneys. 

As for the fair part if it is not fair for some then it is not worth doing.  At least the way we are doing it now everyone has an equel change of getting an easy or hard draw. 

Once again I contend that if team points were not involved very few people would be concerned about it. 

This is the opinion of GOO and only GOO

Take it or leave it, it really doesn't matter.

Goo out.

Now I really have to disagree with GOO.  :evil:

I don't know that they have a better system, but much more complete information.

I also don't know that the schedule issues are that much different.  The good kids will get tested.  If not, we will know from previous experience if they are likely to step it up at state.  If they haven't before and they wrestle a weak schedule, I wouldn't expect them to do it in the future no matter what their record is.

And I don't think I have used team points as my reasoning for seeding the state tournament.  I just think it is the right thing to do.

Here is another question?  I don't know the answer to that could pertain to this arguement. 

Do some of the big wrestling states seed their wrestles?  Ohio, California, Penn.....

How many states do seed their state tourney?

What I would truely like more than seeding the state tourney would be for the State Duals Tourney to be recognized as the team state champions and not the individual state tourney.

Once again Just the opinion of GOO

GOO out.

Here is another question?  I don't know the answer to that could pertain to this arguement. 

Do some of the big wrestling states seed their wrestles?  Ohio, California, Penn.....

How many states do seed their state tourney?

What I would truely like more than seeding the state tourney would be for the State Duals Tourney to be recognized as the team state champions and not the individual state tourney.

Once again Just the opinion of GOO

GOO out.

GOOd point GOO.  I have no clue what other states do as far as seeding state.  The one thing I don't like about state duals determining the team champ is how do we fit it in the schedule.  If things work out perfectly then it is fine.  But when you have weather issues, as we have for the last couple years, then it causes a real problem.  But I would have no problem with the state duals champion being recognized as the team champion.

Goo you could use past state performances, who hey have beaten, big tournaments they won, and etc....

I know they seed regional  so why do they even bother doing that if everything has to be fair goo?

If they seed regionals they should seed state

Ohio does not seed their state tournament.  This is significant in that about half of the state placers (and most of the champs) come out of the Celeveland/Akron districts. However nobody really complains other then occasionally trying to redraw the districts or things like that.

Ohio does not seed their state tournament.  This is significant in that about half of the state placers (and most of the champs) come out of the Celeveland/Akron districts. However nobody really complains other then occasionally trying to redraw the districts or things like that.

Good point.  Don't they redraw quite often in Ohio?  I'm not sure what the reasons are for this, but I think teams change districts or sections pretty frequently.

As I understand the rule, the KHSAA currently requires a "draw" to set the state tournament field.  So any change would have to be approved by them.  Since their "Holy Grail" basketball event in Lexington (you know, happens soon after the state tournament) is a blind draw, I don't think there is much feeling for a seeding system.

No offense to Ranger, who does a great job, but the big issue would be developing an independent ranking system that makes sure everyone from all over the state is seen as often as the next.  KHSAA doesn't want to use Cantrell rankings for basketball and those are fairly well accepted.  I like the idea of seeding, but I'm not sure it is practical.

Alot of the redrawing in Ohio is based on size.  there are Three sizes of schools (D I- III) for wrestling. Each division is made up uf 4 districts and each district has 4 sectionals of between 9-15 schools each. As schools change size they can change division or schools add or drop wrestling Every year there are "realignments" to try and balance out the number of participating schools in each.  They have alsp tried to redraw the district lines in the past to try to split the major powers.  It gets political sometimes and some of the district maps kinda look like congressional districts

As I understand the rule, the KHSAA currently requires a "draw" to set the state tournament field.  So any change would have to be approved by them.  Since their "Holy Grail" basketball event in Lexington (you know, happens soon after the state tournament) is a blind draw, I don't think there is much feeling for a seeding system.

No offense to Ranger, who does a great job, but the big issue would be developing an independent ranking system that makes sure everyone from all over the state is seen as often as the next.  KHSAA doesn't want to use Cantrell rankings for basketball and those are fairly well accepted.  I like the idea of seeding, but I'm not sure it is practical.

I'm not sure.  The basketball and wrestling tournaments are completely different.  Most of the sports like basketball and football have it set where Region A will play region B, etc.  The crazy blind draw that we do is unique, I believe.  I wouldn't propose that any rankings are used as a primary seeding criteria.  There should be mandatory reporting of results to the KHSAA and they would have the results they need to seed it.  There would be a conference call to discuss any issues that couldn't be resolved based on the results, but as I mentioned before less than half of the coaches around the state would actually participate in the call.

The state of Georgia crowns both a traditional team champion and a dual team state champion.  Kentucky is definitely behind in this area.  We must schedule the dual state championship in such a way that it takes place.

i agree. if your the best wrestler in the state at ur class wether its a seeded bracket or drawn your gona win. y make things difficult?

i agree. if your the best wrestler in the state at ur class wether its a seeded bracket or drawn your gona win. y make things difficult?

I would vote to "make things difficult" to avoid the situation where Ervin, Yenter, and Milford all end up in the top side of the bracket.  It would have only taken one little switch this past year and those kids would have been battling each other just to make the finals.  Then destroying whomever they faced in the finals.  I believe it is a big deal to make the finals.  Yes, the primary focus is crowning a champion, but getting to the podium and getting under the spotlight are NOT completely insignificant.

but as I mentioned before less than half of the coaches around the state would actually participate in the call.

If a process was set up by the KHSSA with a conference call and less than half of the coaches participate. I would not call those non- participating Coaches, if they don't do their job as a coach and stand up for their kids in the process! :-o :-o :-o

If we really want to help our state tournament GET BETTER REFS

If YOU really want to help our state tournament...BE that better Ref.

can't ref when you are coaching lol  Now most of the seeding talk is concerned when we have a clear #1 and clear #2 or #3.  but what about the weight class where there are no clear favorites or close seconds.  Wouldn't seeding close kids based on whatever criteria or meeting give them an unfair advantage?

If a process was set up by the KHSSA with a conference call and less than half of the coaches participate. I would not call those non- participating Coaches, if they don't do their job as a coach and stand up for their kids in the process! :-o :-o :-o

I am referring back to my previous suggestion that only region champs are seeded.  The rest fall into the bracket based on the way #2, #3, and #4 does today.  Based on a single year sample, less than half of the coaches had a region champ.

I am referring back to my previous suggestion that only region champs are seeded.  The rest fall into the bracket based on the way #2, #3, and #4 does today.  Based on a single year sample, less than half of the coaches had a region champ.

This has been suggested before.

When coaches can't even get the current KSHAA Wrestling Director to hold a meeting to discuss redistricting (based on the new program).  Which was discussed and recommended at the past state tournament, "HASN'T happened" when do you think he will have a meeting to discuss seeding? If these meeting took place regrettable NO one was aware of them.

The Commissioner seems to have little interest in the future of wrestling based on current performance, coaches have a VOICE but it falls on deaf ears and nothing will ever change.

Regrettable, veteran coaches get tired of the same ole song and dance and either concede, give up or retire.

I would vote to "make things difficult" to avoid the situation where Ervin, Yenter, and Milford all end up in the top side of the bracket.  It would have only taken one little switch this past year and those kids would have been battling each other just to make the finals.  Then destroying whomever they faced in the finals.  I believe it is a big deal to make the finals.  Yes, the primary focus is crowning a champion, but getting to the podium and getting under the spotlight are NOT completely insignificant.

i compleatly understand that. regardles these boys need to come out to wrestle there hardest weather its a seeded bracket or not, eazy bracket or hard, with seeds alot can be underestamated. i think it would kinda destroy the fear factor of the athleat if they have the kid they want to beat on the oposite side of there bracket.

Here is another question?  I don't know the answer to that could pertain to this arguement. 

Do some of the big wrestling states seed their wrestles?  Ohio, California, Penn.....

How many states do seed their state tourney?

What I would truely like more than seeding the state tourney would be for the State Duals Tourney to be recognized as the team state champions and not the individual state tourney.

Once again Just the opinion of GOO

GOO out.

Ohio doesn't seed the tournament, but if there are District champions coming in that were top 3 before they are separated.  So Ervin and Yenter would NOT wrestle each other in the semis after being in the finals last year.

Ohio and Penn wrestle 16 man brackets! Not 32!

Ohio and Penn wrestle 16 man brackets! Not 32!

Yeah, but the same logic applies.  Even if there were 64; you separate the studs.

Yeah, but the same logic applies.  Even if there were 64; you separate the studs.

Something needs to be done.. I am a young up and coming coach and the process of KHSAA makes want to bang my head against the wall.. I know TN system is flawed but the previous placers are seeded. If they do not win the region they are "randomly" drawn in. I like how KY state works, the system needs to be tweaked. I would rather watch Brock Ervin and Garth Yentar in the finals and not in the third round this coming year.

OK I'll bend a little. 

I would be OK with a random separation of (Regional winners who placed top 4 last year)

IE.  If there are 2 returning top 4 placers then they are separated opposite brackets.

IE.II  If there are 3 returning top 4 placers then they are randomly separated in three quarterfinal brackets.

Etc. Etc.  But don't try to seed them (This still has a possibility of a semifinals match between Yenter and Ervin if maybe Boone returns to 112) But it reduces the chances and they definitely will not meet in the quarters. 

This is the opinion of GOO nothing more nothing less.  :evil:

GOO out. :-D

That's kind of my point, except in those two states that's all that is left are studs. Our state tournament is a bit watered down. Only makes good sense to separate the studs!!

Hey, I budged GOO.  We may be getting somewhere.  In your example, Boone would be automatic being in the same region as Ervin, but I see your point.  And that's all I'm saying.  Although, I will say I don't especially like purely using prior years as a criteria.  What if a kid gets 3rd, moves up 4 weight classes, and has a .500 record.  He doesn't really deserve that "seeding".  But there may be a Brock Ervin out there that is a stud and does deserve some consideration, but is a freshman or new to the state (Hall or Back).

Buckeye - another good reason to not have it random.  I agree there are some kids at state that "shouldn't be there".  So why allow them to advance by allowing for the chance that most of the studs could be bottled in one section of the bracket.