I know there has been a lot of talk among the wrestling community about dividing schools up by size, just wondering what peoples thoughts on it are or any ideas on the topic.

I personally don't think it's a good idea, one because there aren't enough schools and the quality of wrestling would be diluted if that happens, the numbers would have to increase dramatically for this too happen.  The other thing is two of the small schools that I can think of off the top of my head would dominate.  Union and Larue

I have long been opposed to the split but am now reconsidering my opinion.  One option for the small schools that are dominating is to give them the option to compete with the larger schools instead.  Let them choose to compete with the big boys if they want.  Other than those two are there any others that could compete with the large schools?

Kentucky doesn't have nearly enough competition to begin to split into divisions.  Last time I checked when you walk on to the mat there is only one guy standing across from you.  He weighs just the same as you.  Lace up those shoes and go after him.

This has been a big topic in the past and most opinions are pretty set.  Bottom line with only 100 or so teams that even wrestle (and not even all of them are full) it seems ridiculous to talk about subdividing even more!

Exactly, not enough teams or competition to talk about dividing into two divisions, it just waters down the competition.

I think within the next 5-10 years their will be enough teams to split into divisons. I know just in region 8 over the last 2 years there have been 4 new teams added. (East Ridge, belfy, Pike, an Jenkins.) Although Jenkins no longer has a program this year. Still I think the sport is growing and more people are taking intrest.

The sport is growing, but it still won't be big enough in the near future to divide into two divisions.

Kentucky doesn't have nearly enough competition to begin to split into divisions.  Last time I checked when you walk on to the mat there is only one guy standing across from you.  He weighs just the same as you.  Lace up those shoes and go after him.

I agree it dont matter how big your school is theirs only one guy you have to think about when you are on the mat.

I am new to high school wrestling, but I have been around sports for many years.  The wrestling state championship is a fantastic experience, but if you want to grow wrestling in the state you should absolutely divide into two divisions.  Realistically, unless you have a tremendous history in your county with wrestling, a small school simply does not have the resources to compete with schools that are 5A and 6A schools.  By having a small school division, you create an incentive for more schools to become involved in wrestling.  Schools like Bath County, Powell County and many other 2A and 3A schools may consider becoming involved in a sport in which  they could actually compete with a relatively small financial investment.  A school that size is not going to get involved with a region where they are competing with Henry Clay and Dunbar.  Simply put, if you have more opportunities to win, you will increase competition.  If you increase competition, you will increase overall quality. 

Boco;

Not sure how you think splitting into two divisions will lower the cost for wrestling. 

The cost will be the same regardless of if you are a small school or large school. 

Being that this is an individual sport with group tendencies I'm not sure the (competing) with bigger schools really matters.  If you have a coach that can motivate and teach technique small schools can be competitive. 

Class 1A schools don't have wrestling teams because they can't support it by number of kids.  It is difficult to have a basketball team and a wrestling team in schools that have 100 kids in the school. 

Plus most football coaches in KY don't understand the benefits of wrestling for their football players.

That would be an average of 50 boys in which 25 will play basketball, 15 will not compete in any sport which leaves only 10 boys in which the football coach will convince 5 of them not to wrestle.

The Class 2A and 3A schools that have wrestling teams do compete well individually.  Many have state champions and a few have won the outright team state title.

Being a person who coached a Small school team.  I know outright that for our school it would not have mattered if the divisions were split.  There are plenty of tournaments you can attend during the season that are suited for small schools, which allows the wrestlers to be successfull.

Thes are the opinions of GOO nothing more nothing less.

GOO out.

I like the idea of a split only with state duals.  I think it will help build interest of the sport especially with the smaller schools.  I also like the option of some small schools having the option of bumping up.  I can see where it may not be as beneficial for a Union or Larue which are small schools.  This is the option they give in football for more competitive teams.  The only difference is they have to find a school to take their place which causes the problems.

I don't want them to split it up, neither do I think they should. They give out small school state titles anyways with Union winning it and Larue taking second. Union is only 2a and with this being an individual sport, it helps that there is only 14 weight classes for the smaller programs. Filling teams are hard to do for smaller schools but it can be done. Individual success comes with a good youth program and getting kids involved early. Small schools have won the 3 out of the last 5 overall state championships so competing with the big dogs is possible, and attainable. I haven't looked at the total numbers but Union has had 14 state champs in that 5 year span. Back in 2003, they weren't even the best team in the region but when they started the youth programs their success rose exponentially. If smaller schools are able to get the backing of their community and start a youth program, it will help them tremendously.

It honestly should only be up for discussion between the small schools. The big schools will neither gain nor lose anything in a split. The small schools are the only ones affected. Why should the small schools need approval and rely on votes from the large schools whether or not a split would be appropriate?

Say it is watered down or not, the overall quality of wrestlers will not change, only the number of state champions will increase and also the number of wrestlers. If the total number of wrestlers increases, you also have the opportunity to improve the quality over time. Why are Kentucky Wrestlers better than they were 5 years ago? One of the biggest reasons is because of the number of teams and competitors has increased. More and more money are going into the top tier teams to build their programs. The top teams are traveling to the best tournaments in the nation and going to the best camps money can buy. Follow Trinity, Ryle, and Union. Where are their kids going to summer camps, how far are they traveling to tournaments?

While you do face another competitor the same weight class as you, they also have a much higher probability of winning with the resources available to them in their local communities and within their own schools budget. I assure you, the athletic budget of a 5a/6a team is not the same as a 2a.

In the past 2 years, I have noticed a much more drastic drop in the competitiveness of small schools. Throw out the outliers Union and Larue, many of the small town wrestling programs close to extinction in another 2-5 years. Wait and see, the small towns in Kentucky have been hit hardest by the economy and it will affect the families in those locations. Sports really do bring communities together. Do you think LaRue would be who it is today if the community wasn't behind that program? As great as the coaches are in that program, if they were building a team from scratch in a small town rural area today, competing against striving teams in the big league, it would take sooooo much longer to get to the level they are at today, if at all. The LaRue and Union County teams were built much earlier than the world Kentucky Wrestling is in right now. Please name me any NEW small town team that is holding ground without the strong tradition built in the mid 80's and late 90's. You're talking at least 10-20 years of tradition.

All that being said, the truth is, the KHSAA does not want to split wrestling because if wrestling splits, basketball will fight to be split. And the KHSAA never wants that to happen.

Here is one team that is Class 2A

Walton Verona:

2nd year team.

took 4 to state tourney.

2 placers

placed 21st with 43.5 points.

Not top 10 but great for any 2nd year team even if it was Class 6A.

As for established teams.  I don't care how big you are it will usually take 5-10 years to build a decent program from scratch.

I however would not be opposed to doing what basketball does (The Single A classic).

Maybe during the state duals tourney they could hold a small school state tourney.

Wrestling is a cheap sport to start and participate in and small schools would jump on board if they saw other schools enjoying more success.  In our area, wrestling is something people think that Woodford county does.  More state champions means more exposure and would mean more competitors. 

When I recruit wrestlers, I use the elementary state.  I tell kids that they can win a state championship and that in elementary, they can not do that in football or basketball.  I have been able to get many kids interested and participating and many of those kids have placed or won the elementary state. 

Financially, small schools can not compete with traditional powers and big schools.  How many coaches can a school employ.  How many kids does a school have in the program for kids to compete against every practice.  I think that the idea of one wrestler against one wrestler is a quaint idea, and not very realistic. 

It honestly should only be up for discussion between the small schools. The big schools will neither gain nor lose anything in a split. The small schools are the only ones affected. Why should the small schools need approval and rely on votes from the large schools whether or not a split would be appropriate?

Say it is watered down or not, the overall quality of wrestlers will not change, only the number of state champions will increase and also the number of wrestlers. If the total number of wrestlers increases, you also have the opportunity to improve the quality over time. Why are Kentucky Wrestlers better than they were 5 years ago? One of the biggest reasons is because of the number of teams and competitors has increased. More and more money are going into the top tier teams to build their programs. The top teams are traveling to the best tournaments in the nation and going to the best camps money can buy. Follow Trinity, Ryle, and Union. Where are their kids going to summer camps, how far are they traveling to tournaments?

While you do face another competitor the same weight class as you, they also have a much higher probability of winning with the resources available to them in their local communities and within their own schools budget. I assure you, the athletic budget of a 5a/6a team is not the same as a 2a.

In the past 2 years, I have noticed a much more drastic drop in the competitiveness of small schools. Throw out the outliers Union and Larue, many of the small town wrestling programs close to extinction in another 2-5 years. Wait and see, the small towns in Kentucky have been hit hardest by the economy and it will affect the families in those locations. Sports really do bring communities together. Do you think LaRue would be who it is today if the community wasn't behind that program? As great as the coaches are in that program, if they were building a team from scratch in a small town rural area today, competing against striving teams in the big league, it would take sooooo much longer to get to the level they are at today, if at all. The LaRue and Union County teams were built much earlier than the world Kentucky Wrestling is in right now. Please name me any NEW small town team that is holding ground without the strong tradition built in the mid 80's and late 90's. You're talking at least 10-20 years of tradition.

All that being said, the truth is, the KHSAA does not want to split wrestling because if wrestling splits, basketball will fight to be split. And the KHSAA never wants that to happen.

I agree 100%

Wrestling is a cheap sport to start and participate in and small schools would jump on board if they saw other schools enjoying more success.  In our area, wrestling is something people think that Woodford county does.  More state champions means more exposure and would mean more competitors. 

When I recruit wrestlers, I use the elementary state.  I tell kids that they can win a state championship and that in elementary, they can not do that in football or basketball.  I have been able to get many kids interested and participating and many of those kids have placed or won the elementary state. 

Financially, small schools can not compete with traditional powers and big schools.  How many coaches can a school employ.  How many kids does a school have in the program for kids to compete against every practice.  I think that the idea of one wrestler against one wrestler is a quaint idea, and not very realistic.

A very strong point. A school with only a handful of wrestlers will have a hard time even competing in practice. There will be uneven matchups with drill partners. For example, A 189 may have to drill with a 152. Neither wrestler would get to experience wrestling someone of the same weight before going into a match.

A very strong point. A school with only a handful of wrestlers will have a hard time even competing in practice. There will be uneven matchups with drill partners. For example, A 189 may have to drill with a 152. Neither wrestler would get to experience wrestling someone of the same weight before going into a match.

Totally disagree.  When Perry Central started under Coach Paul Chaney he usually had about 6 wrestlers with no match ups in weight and came away with medalists at state many times.

Union is only 2a

Union is in Class 3-A.

Yeah I meant to put that. didn't see my mistake!

GOO

I don't think Walton is a very good example for this discussion. No disrespect to the program or the coaches but they did/do rely heavily on the "Big Schools" for some of their wrestlers.

Eventually, (10+ years) I think a split will be needed but not until one or two Big Schools completely dominate the state tournament year after year. Didn't see that this year.

i think it's hilarious that the folks for this are the schools who either get their butt handed to them by the smaller schools (aka LaRue and Union). I know for a fact LaRue and Union are against this. The ones who want the split are the larger schools for the most part. Keep it as is. right now KY doesnt' have the numbers to split. In a few years when more schools have started programs, then we can entertain this idea. And for those who say more schools would start programs if we split, we had 6 schools attempt to start programs this year in the state of KY. call me crazy, but sounds to me like schools ARE starting wrestling without us splitting.

Ok dscicle, your CRAZY!!!!!!

funny dagger. funny.

Totally disagree.  When Perry Central started under Coach Paul Chaney he usually had about 6 wrestlers with no match ups in weight and came away with medalists at state many times.

How many years ago was this? Goodluck doing that now

Re: small school- big school

I don't think Walton is a very good example for this discussion. No disrespect to the program or the coaches but they did/do rely heavily on the "Big Schools" for some of their wrestlers."

Act Like Youve Been There,

I don't understand what you mean by this statement? How is it you get the impression that Walton relies heavily on " Big School" for some of their wrestlers?

Being from a small KY school that lost their wrestling program, I am glad to see the sport appears to be growing in the state.

Does the KHSAA rules allow for shared sports programs? Shared ahletic programs are pretty common in other states. Some of the shared programs may only involve one or two of the athletic programs offered. I have seen up to three small schools (less than 200 enrollment) in one state combine their wrestling team so they have enough kids to fill a squad. The school districts had to sign a formal agreement that had to be approved by the state athletic association. Sharing agreement are not always long term so has enrollments change, these agreement may be disolved or modified. In really small schools that offer limited sport programs, they may have agreements with other schools that allow their kids to participate at that school in certain sports. Sharing agreement in some state can be also cross county lines since school district are not required to be totally inside one county. Perhaps, Kentucky already allows shared aports programs, and I am outdated on the KHSAA rules. If KHSAA does not currently support it, it might be worth pushing for. It would give some small schools a chance to keep sports with low participation numbers or allow their kids the opportunity to participate at another school without losing their enrollment. It beats taking away opportunities for high school kids to compete.

im against because alot of schools will lose some of the competition they have in their region then when they get to state they'll get ran thru

i think it's hilarious that the folks for this are the schools who either get their butt handed to them by the smaller schools (aka LaRue and Union). I know for a fact LaRue and Union are against this. The ones who want the split are the larger schools for the most part. Keep it as is. right now KY doesnt' have the numbers to split. In a few years when more schools have started programs, then we can entertain this idea. And for those who say more schools would start programs if we split, we had 6 schools attempt to start programs this year in the state of KY. call me crazy, but sounds to me like schools ARE starting wrestling without us splitting.

As someone who is involved with this very closely, I can assure you that it is not the big schools making this push.

How many years ago was this? Goodluck doing that now

Chaney coached from 1999-2005 and seldom kept more than half dozen. Had strong 215, 103, 140 with a few others sprinkled in. Not exactly matching weights.

dscicle,

The big schools are not the ones pushing for this change. They don't want the state split.

It's the small schools. They think the KHSAA will split the state, and give the smaller schools the choice to compete up in class and that teams like LaRue and Union County will jump at it.

I don't think they should split it at all.

Chaney coached from 1999-2005 and seldom kept more than half dozen. Had strong 215, 103, 140 with a few others sprinkled in. Not exactly matching weights.

How many medalists?

Well after a 2 year absence from the sport of wrestling I watched very close what went on this season in wrestling. After 20 years of being a sucessfull HS assistant and very successfull middle school coach and referee I noticed something that benefits the state wrestling community and all efforts should be consintrated in this. The participation of elementary and middle school wrestlers have made wrestling communities across the state weather it is in big school or little school. The importance of wrestling at an early age is important because it brings numbers to the sport. Programs in small communities like Union , Larue, Johnson Central and even with the clubs at River City and Shamrock have fosterd participants in the sport because the sport is important to that particular community. For wrestling to grow , all energies must be put in these efforts. If you look at the state championship teams of the last 20 years, they have one thing in common, a strong wrestling community with wrestlers that have started for the most part at an early age. The dissucion of spliting wrestling in to 2 or 3 classes is futile until more communties are established. Any school can try to establish a championship program, but first they have to establish community. And on last arguement, how many 6A schools had full dual meet line ups this year? I do like the idea of jacketcoach and possibly having a ALL A classic duals the weekend before regions