For the Next Two Years, the KYWCA will be doing the State Duals a little different. We will hold a Big School and Small School Division for the first time. Teams have been placed into Sectionals based on Geography and will compete in Sectional Duals. The top two teams from each Sectional will move on to The State Duals at Fern Creek HS on January 26th.

This has been a very long project (Two years) with several revisions. It was voted on and accepted by all coaches having a say rather it was yes or no. Coaches agreed to do a two year trial, than revisit to make changes if needed.

I have attached the Sectionals for everyone to see.

2012-2013 KYWCA State Duals Split 6 Sectional Proposal.pdf

Will each sectional have a tournament or will each sectional decide among themselves how to decide who represents them?

Will the state duals be 3 pools of 4 then the 1st in each pool go into a pool of 3?

It is up to each sectional to decide what type of setup they want. Very similar to the past way with Regional Duals or Tournaments.

State Duals will have the same format as before except there will be four pools of three rather than four pools of four. The winners come out into semis, etc.

So that means

Pool A

#1

#1

#2

Pool B

#1

#1

#2

Pool C

#1

#2

#2

Pool D

#1

#2

#2

Just curios why not 3 pools with 2 #1's and 2 #2s

Makes it hard to look forward to. Its wasting a week of competion.

Makes it hard to look forward to. Its wasting a week of competion.

Agree. Not a big fan of this. Will Union actually participate? On a consistent basis it is hard to see a small school team competing with them at this point in time.

Lets remember that this was put in place by the coaches. Many feel this will lead to more growth. There were coaches opposed of this like there were coaches for it. I think if we all keep our mind set on that we are seeing if it will lead to growth, all will be good. If teams back out than our coaches are defeating each other in what we are trying to do.

All of that said, with change comes some resistance. I get that. I remember when we went to a 32 man bracket. People said oh it waters it down. Yet some of the best matches are now happening in all rounds of the state tournament.

How will they decide where the 2 1s go and the 1 with the 2 2s , not that it matters but that will be the next argument .

Doubt Union will back out but don't know. And you are correct that their will be very little comp. team wise for Union. Don't see the growth potential by simply splitting the field in half. growth would come by making it 2-16 team brackets.

And State tournament is watered down.

It may be fortunate for some of the big schools , sort of like Ohio where all the d1 schools still get bragging rights since they do not have to face SPG ,not many big schools can compete with Union I can see why they would not favor the split but mixing things up may be good and everyone will still wrestle at State although the numbers can effect the outcome , some teams may be better dual teams others better big tourny team .

I wonder how a north south or east west dual would go or both it would be neat,it's all about getting people involved in the sport and helping it grow north south might not be so good east west would be pretty cool , there lets do it that way top 4 east vs top 4 west , that would be awesome .

Here is the issue with letting a team wrestle up.....

We will not let a big school wrestle down so it is not fair to let a small school wrestle up. Also, letting a team wrestle up takes a way from a big school team. Its a tough situation.

I would be willing to bet that the reason for this is all the crying by some small school coaches about not being able to field a team to compete with the big schools.

And I would venture to guess that there wouldn't be 1 big school complain about a small school wrestling up. And that would actually give the region ___ small schools what they have been crying out for, a bracket they can win.

We let small kids wrestle up, but not big kids wrestle down. Its really not that tough.

As cmccoy said, this was put in place by the coaches. Sure it is not to everybody's liking but it is a start. This could turn into a premier event as the kinks are worked out. Splitting the event into two divisions is a good idea.

Wrestling probably need to take a page from kentucky basketball and hold an All "A" State Duals.

This way the small schools could still participate in the State duals then also compete in the All "Small" State Duals.

My thinking exactly bulldog. Hold an All A classic dual event for the small schools if they want it.

That is a good idea! Didn't think of that.

Isnt that what they are doing here (small school state duals?)

^{Will all the sectionals be on the same date or will that be up to each sectional? If they will all be on the same date when will they be?}

It is actually a good problem to have. Changing because your numbers are growing and time to try new things. All big wrestling states face this at some point. It just means that KY state wrestling has grown to a point that it can experiment and find out what is best for the state. Hopefully the willingness to change to try things for the better will be contagious.

If it sucks, you can always go back in two years.

What about instead of calling it small school / big school division we could do as football does and go to calling it "1A" for small school and "2A" for big school?

What about instead of calling it small school / big school division we could do as football does and go to calling it "1A" for small school and "2A" for big school?

Not sure if the issue is how it is named.

Not sure if the issue is how it is named.

I know that the name is not a big issue but it was something i wanted to throw out there for consideration

As cmccoy said, this was put in place by the coaches. Sure it is not to everybody's liking but it is a start. This could turn into a premier event as the kinks are worked out. Splitting the event into two divisions is a good idea.

The problem is at this point and time is that two of the small schools are the powerhouses in our state Union and Larue. There is not another small school that can come close to competing with them let alone beat them. Most of the small schools will not be able to field a whole team.

How many people are going to want to watch Union go against the other small schools, Just looking at the Nky sectionals It would probably be Walton Verona and Harrison Co. A big difference from Campbell, Ryle, or Simon Kenton.

The problem is at this point and time is that two of the small schools are the powerhouses in our state Union and Larue. There is not another small school that can come close to competing with them let alone beat them. Most of the small schools will not be able to field a whole team.

But sooner or later an upset will happen and when it does it will be that much bigger of an accomplishment when there are people against it. Might not be the first or 2nd year, but it will happen. If you look back at the history of wrestling - there were other teams that were powerhouses and aren't anymore. Calling teams out on what they can't do will make them work harder.

But if you give Union the opportunity to move up then you have the small schools actually trying to win the small school titile and probably more excitement at the tourney.

If you let union move up other schools will want to move up and then you would have to let them....unless there is qualifications like top 5 at the previous state tournament and then you would have to move the same amount of big schools down to little school division .......say teams that place bottom 5 at state in the previous year....

How about this? The top 2 teams in the small school have the opportunity to move up and compete against the large schools. If they choose not to then no small schools move up.

I don't think the large schools need to be able to move down. Thats like saying a 145lb wrester can move up only if a 152lb wrestler can move down. (You can only move up you can't move down)

but if they move up what sectional will they go in to?

So what happens to regional duals?

Interestingly, despite all of the discussion about the weakness of the small school division, the finals of last year's State Duals was between two small school division teams (Union and Larue). Moreover, the top six teams at the state tournament last year are split evenly between the two divisions.

1. Campbell..................(Large School)

2. Union........................(Small School)

3. Trinity.......................(Large School)

4. Larue.......................(Small School)

5. Simon Kenton..........(Large School)

6. Johnson Central......(Small School)

Based on this, I would say the top teams in each division are not so unequally weighted. True, there may be less depth in small school division, but I think that is the point. The theory goes, the more people in your school, generally (though not always) the easier it is to fill the weight classes. The more weight classes you have filled, generally (though not always) the more likely you are to be able to compete at dual meets. Finally, generally (though not always) success breeds success and if some small schools can win a few matches or make it to state duals, more kids might want to come out for the team and more schools might want to throw their hat in the ring for a wrestling team - potentially growing the sport in our fair Commonwealth. A larger, stronger wrestling program in the state of Kentucky would ultimately benefit everyone.

You can't compare the "State tournament" to the Dual state tournament. Getting one or two into the finals will get you top 10 at the state tourney but will not even qualify you for the state duals.

Last year the top 6 at the state duals were.

1. Union

2. Larue

3. Campbell

4. Trinity

5. Simon Kenton

6. St Xavier.

7. Southern

8. Anderson Co.

Not sure how the rest faired.

Just saying if your team is a power house and is "untouchable" in small school what else could you use to let them move up besides them just asking pretty please? then if you let them move up, All schools that asked would have to be able to move up to big school.....and then after that whats the point of having small school and big school?

The assumption is that small school would be the less competitive of the two, but in this case the large schools would be lucky to compete against themselves without the small schools.

The small school overall would still be less competitive. Only Union in this next year and maybe Johnson Central would be tough next year in the small schools.

When I talk competitive I mean top to bottom, not just the top team or two.

What if they built in a dual for the champion of both big and small school, then you have an at large champion. I know many years ago they did this in football.

The whole "small schools cant field full teams" does not hold weight with me. I wrestled at a big school (Tates Creek). My senior year we had 6 wrestlers. I have coached at two big schools and had many years in the beginning at Lafayette in which we never had all of the weight classes filled. Again, most coaches believe that this could lead to growth. I think it is worth a try. Who knows, maybe we add 10 more schools.

Also, looking at the Small School Division there are some teams I think many are overlooking. Sure Union will be the favorite. But what about Johnson Central, Wayne County, Larue County, Franklin County, Moore, and Walton Verona.

coachteater - I have given this a lot of thought and I know it is up for discussion. I think this is a good idea and a bad idea. Sure we can see if The Small School can beat the Big School but why is it necessary? That defeats this purpose. Remember the purpose is growth.

I say to those worried about who the top team is....you will find out on the third Saturday in February.

Very true , there are duals and a state tournament why not mix it up a bit .I am sure there are lots of teams big and small that have trouble fielding full teams it seems like many schools are always scrambling for heavies and just as many have trouble finding lightweights .

I understand a team wanting to test itself and it's also understandable having big school small school divisions . I think duals is more of a bragging right for teams and coaches mixing it up spreads the love and Coach McCoy is correct everyone will know where they stand at the state tournament .

If a small school like Union or Larue feels cheated or over "qualified or loaded " to compete against other small schools they simply only need to boost their schedule I would set back and enjoy if I were them it's only one tournament .I would look at ways to make any situation that was not favorable work to my advantage If I were them bump kids around mix it up or send whoever I wanted to the duals and have maybe two tournys that weekend on your schedule send the V with the JV or something and send your "JV" to a big tourny or dual out of state maybe , but personally would send my best mayb bump a few for matches and enjoy the sport and the win use it to set up a state run sort of a primer for state .

Its 2 tournaments. Have you looked at the sectional tournaments. 3 if regional duals are still wrestled, but that's where teams establish criteria for seeding at regional tournament.

I know I'm an old fuddy duddy but the bumping and such is what is such a big negative for me. I hate watching teams bump kids around and such. Like I said I like the old days when teams set their team and said "here is what I have at each wt. class, come and beat my team".

I know a couple of times the coach asked me if I wanted to bump up against a better opponent. I told him I wanted to wrestle him but did not want to take a spot away from my teamate "who was also my best friend my senior year". Twice I wrestled that individual after the dual, but did not want to take spots from teamates.

Come on goo. Yes, you are an old fuddy duddy, but that doesn't have anything to do with it. You are just looking at the negatives. I can find just as many positives to bumping kids around. A big one is a different way of looking at your negative. State duals. You want to send 14 kids and see how they fare. I would rather take 18+ and let them all be part of the experience. What about that senior who has worked hard for 5 or 6 years for the program and finds himself without a spot in a championship caliber lineup. Or that freshman who is behind a defending state champ and can't crack the lineup this season, but you know will be a key part of the team the next few seasons. I say take as many as you can fit into a spot and get them mat time at a big event. And with a little study time, you can probably even find a few situations where your team actually matches up better with another team by moving a few kids around and maybe putting a backup or 2 in the lineup. Plus resting a few key kids can benefit the team as well.

All I can say is the last 2 season state duals has been such a fun event by me taking that approach. Get as many kids involved and on the mat as possible. We've had success and I think the kids have had a blast and really come together as a team knowing it took contributions from more than a couple of studs to get the job done.

very true ranger.............

_{OK Buckeye i am behind on a lot in KY i didnt know they had regional duals to qualify for State duals ,OH takes the top 2 from each regional the previous yr for its state duals .}

_{still like mixing it up as coach McCoy said and if a team is over stacked it could give a beat up stud a breather or give him a better match if he bumped if needed .}

_{all i really know is my kids were not cleared untill after duals last yr so they were not allowed to make their cert weight i know its a big tourny but i also think it leaves room for some variety to mix things up .perhaps KY could nix their regional duals use some different criteria to pick its dual teams and have two state duals rather than a regional and state duals have a big and small schools dual and an overall state duals and if a team like union or larue defers to do the small school duals let another small school "the next on the list take their spot ,then everyone gets what they want the powerhouse teams get to mix it up with the bigger schools and there are still two tournnys .}

_{there Problem solved .}

_{On another note i noticed Ryle has a huge tourny in their rumble ,Why are there not more tournys of that calibre in KY say like at CC or Trinity ,they have to be huge money makers and are good for the state as well ,seems there could be at least 4 or five tournys like that in KY Union trinity CC larue could all draw some goood comp ,im sure Trinity has some pull on the big private schools it could draw and im sure SK would like to have a big tournament as well.}

Sorry, didn't intend that to sound like I was snapping at you.

Mpire: I would say that the reason for the lack of tourneys is because of lack of turnout. Ky has a problem getting good Ohio schools to come to KY. It is much easier for the Ky schools to attend the already established big tourneys in Ohio.

Take the Nky schools for example. They can travel 1-2 hours to Lou. or Lex to attend tourneys or they can travel 1 hour or less to a better established toureny in Ohio, which will also have better competition.

I would say that Ky already has maybe 3 big tourneys. Rumble at Ryle. Dragon at South Oldham, and Woodford Inv. at Woodford. I also believe that Christion or Hopkinsville hold a nice tourney in Western KY.

Ranger: Like I said I'm an old fuddy duddy. I still don't like the idea of being able to choose neutral (in my day you only had a choice of top or bottom, and if you chose top in the 2nd period you were automaticaly down in the 3rd), let alone the idea of being able to tell the ref to let him up after a stop in action.

And don't get me started on the tech pin (we didn't have tech pins either in my day).

I never thought you were snapping at me Buckeye ,I know we are almost always on the same page i was being serious i am behind on how some things are done in KY as far as rules and tournys and stuff,

I have heard of the dragon tournament and i didnt mean just bringing in OH schools there are tough teams IN PA ILL MICH IND everywhere i just think bigger wrestling schools like Trinity and CC could have some stacked tournys ,and even smaller schools like Union with decent history and studs in the sport could have bigger tournys ,might be a better plan to increase what is in state rather than have all the schools looking for more travel out .

I grew up in KY, EVERYONE wrestled just not schoolastically i could see KY becoming a powerhouse state everyone loved to wrestle loved watching it "PRO " i know its different BUT im just saying ,and i think with the right plan and direction it could be huge ,SUCKS there are no SEC schools that wrestle seems unreal to me that the Big conference in the SOUTH cannot have wrestling like the Big conference in the North "big TEN"

Grappler ,A tech PIN is a beautiful thing ,A tech fall is a tech but to me and my boys a tech Pin is when you take some poor kid to almost a tech and pin him you know like beating someone 13 or 14 to ZIP then hitting them with a LAT DROP for the pin its evil wicked mean and nasty all rolled up into one ,.......I remember one of my boys the "big scorer i think "asking me many times when wrestling those Moeller youth and Jr high kids in cincy tournys after travelling all night from an out of state tourny and only sleeping a few hours what i wanted him to do right before his match and i would look at him and smile and he would already know he would say takem to a tech and pin em ,A TECH PIN ,

Its a beautiful sport at times speed skill strength desire ,nothing to compare the discipline design and rules make it far greater than MMA and the training makes it second to none .to have an 11 or 12 yr old kid have that kind of skill and knowledge is insane i have watched MMA greats set and watch in awe as stud youth wrestlers trained ,its awesome

I've heard your "Tech Pin" called a "Peck" Same definition make sure when you reach 15 that you have the kid on his back and pin him.

But imagine this when I wrestled there was a kid that I (lets just say I didn't like him) I beat him 37-2 every time I had him on his back I would wait for the 5 count then let him come off his back, then do it again. Now that is mean and nasty.

Several times when wrestling weaker teams we would see who could score the most points, $2 a wrestler, ya only won $22 because there were only 12 wt. classes but back in my day that was 2 dinners and a tank of gas. We did it until our coach found out and he made us stop.

that is Awesome unless your on the other end of the 37-2 beat down ,and that is mean and nasty ,apologise to those Moeller coaches for the tech pins "Pecks"as i now will call them my sons dished out to their boys ,LOL ,

My son the speedster kolodsick Cameron Kelly and a few of the other speedster kids from OH used to bet on who could get the quickest pin and what moves they could hit and ALL the CC kids do it with Austin who laughingly claimed he hit a lot of his his moves at NHSCAs because of bets ,i would have to verify it with Hamilton as i am sure he is at the root of it LOL

there is a big youth tourny in Mineral wells WV i saw Stephen get a 6 sec pin then Cameron Kelly get a 4 sec pin and walk over to Stephen and say beat that and Stephen laughed and a few minutes later he walked out and hit the quickest ankle pick i have ever seen staright to a pin it was a pick with the tomahawk motion staright to a cover and pin good ref .....no time even elapsed and they wrote it down as a 2 sec pin i about shit ,he then beat a WV state champ named Crawford and multi timer Briar Shively very handily ,it was the tournament where he turned the corner went from a so so kid with talent to a beter than so so kid with a lot of talent ,cool tournament the Ky youth kids should be sure and hit it every yr .

nice betting scheme ,not enough throws in KY not counting sloppy head and arms that seem to be the bread and butter of so many HS kids .

Like to see the kids bet on them ,first person to throw a head and arm has to pay up big .LOL

I would say the nastiest thing I saw in the tech era, was one of the high school kids I coached asked if he could try and tech someone with only takedowns. I told him only if it is in the finals. He made it to the finals and accomplished the feat with about 10sec to go in the third.

I didn't think he could do it.

yes there are takedown machines out there ,i think its a speed thing .i like to see a kid work well on top as well earn some points from what you practice every day ,kids with tons of experience who are lightining fast from years of wrestling training should not live off of takedowns although if they have variety its fun and exciting to watch ,kids who have only one pot of gold takedown will get beat by a smart coach who will tell his kids how to defend it and i am not a smart coach but i know thats how its done there are defenses that lead to scoring opportunities for kids who know whats coming .

keep them guessing an arsenal cannot be beaten .

_{Nastiest thing i have seen lately other than a kid get ticked and simply snatch a pin with a few seconds left simply out of pure meaness at regionals because no one had lasted a match with him yet, was a beating i saw a kid take at state to avoid a pin ,very impressive Cooper Polly match Polly has a lot of heart.} saw some nasty high crotch flying lifts at state and a nasty inside trip or two this year .

Seriously though grappler i know you saw a nasty headbutt in the Jude Canter match didnt you lol ,its wrestling .Nasty takedown on Jayce in his match with Lampe to start the match holy crap that was wicked nasty ,nasty pancake in about the first second of one of the 152 matches that should have been about a 5 second pin lol that was naaaassstyyyyy,a ten second pin for a first ever match in the ky state tournament was nasty as well LMAO yeah my boys really learned their lesson .....ok ill stop now just kidding i love everyone ...Brock is one nasty dude as well he and carr both seem to flow like water i think they are mutants or something .Jayce needs to quit bleeding so much though maybe wear a face mask or something ,maybe thats whats in his back pack and hes just waiting till he needs it .

I expect to see more nasty next year maybe a surprise OW if two state champs lock up at 220 !!!!but i doubt it .that would be to nasty .