I was shocked to hear coaches actually voted against having team scores at our Youth State Tournament. I'm curious to hear what everyone thinks about this decision.

I'm not shocked at all. Some teams just bring way too many kids compared to others. I'm personally not a fan of the age/weight divisions either. I guess it's nice for the large number of kids who get to call themselves state champions, because they probably wouldnt get to under normal circumstances, but like I said not a fan of it.

In the youth, team scores has a little to do with talent and a lot to do with team numbers. Its not a bad idea to do away with the team scores. I would like to see bigger brackets. Our STATE tournament is nothing but another tournament. The kids need to feel like they accomplished something 8 man brackets are terrible for a "STATE" winner.

Personally I’m glad they got rid of team scoring at the youth level, small programs never seem to have a chance against the large programs. It had been suggested in the past to do a big school/small school set up, but no one seemed willing to change.

However, at the youth level I am still a big fan of the 8 man brackets. Once the kids step up to middle school they will start seeing 16 man brackets on a regular basis. I can understand the thought process of mixing the age groups together, but at the youth level a 2 year age difference can mean a huge strength difference as well. Since the idea is to grow the sport of wrestling in KY, what harm is being done by allowing several state champs? I think by doing the 8 man brackets we have more winners and keep the interest of the kids involved. Like everything else in life, it get harder as you move up. MS wrestlers have to make their way through a long regular season and if they make it through Districts (in some cases fighting their way out of a 32 man bracket) to regions (8man bracket) to state (16 man bracket) at set weight classes, not the 10% rule. In HS, only 1 kid from each school can wrestle at the varsity level. So like anything else it is a progression of difficulty.

I say we just eliminate the individual state placings and just put all of the kids in small round robin brackets, so they can wrestle everyone and give all of the kids a nice pretty yellow ribbon for showing up. As ridiculous as that sounds, that is essentially the same thinking that resulted in doing away with the team scores. THIS IS COMPETITION! Personally, I would be embarrassed as a coach and as a competitor to have voted to eliminate the team score because by doing so you are basically saying "I can't win, therefore, no one should win".

There really isn't one logical reason to eliminate team scores that benefits anyone, including those "smaller" programs that currently aren't very successful. Team scores are a quantitative measurement to demonstrate how your team compares with every other team. Our state tournament is the only youth tournament where most, unfortunately not all, of the teams from around the state show up. Without team scores, how do you know how your team stacks up against the rest of the state? Knowing where you stack up can only help you get better.

Every year we set a goal to win the state tournament as a team. We also look at the gap between us and the other teams compared to years in the past. Is it getting bigger or smaller? That's a great indicator of our success compared to the rest of the state. And we use that information to not only motivate our kids but to motivate the parents and the coaches. Most importantly as a coach, it is one of the ways we measure ourselves. Otherwise, how do you measure how you are performing as a coach?

The participation argument doesn't hold water with me. As a coach for Raider youth, we look at two main areas to determine our success: results on the mat and participation growth. Coaches need to analyze their participation: Are we growing or not? Are we retaining our kids or not? Do we have enough coaches per kid or not? The excuse I hear over and over is, "well we don't have as many kids as some of the larger programs so its not fair". Participation is a big measurement of how well the COACHES are performing. It is a huge part of competing as a coach. If the coaches can't get the numbers up and maintain participation to compete, then they need to either improve or get someone who can. Every great program in any sport has one or two people who are great recruiters. Simply saying "we can't get the numbers that other programs get" is just an excuse. After all, its not like Union, Ky is a huge metropolitan area. Its offensive how other coaches imply that large programs like Raider youth just opened the door and 100 kids showed up. It trivializes all of the hard work that many people put into building that program.

I'd like one of the coaches who voted against the team scores to explain how this will help anything. Obviously, being a coach for the defending state champions, we love having team scores because it helps us market our team and its fun being associated with a winning team. But, I would feel the same way if I coached a team that finished last at state. It makes no sense and certainly doesn't help promote the sport or the tournament.

In the youth, team scores has a little to do with talent and a lot to do with team numbers. Its not a bad idea to do away with the team scores. I would like to see bigger brackets. Our STATE tournament is nothing but another tournament. The kids need to feel like they accomplished something 8 man brackets are terrible for a "STATE" winner.

I think if you looked at the numbers closely, the same teams that have a lot of kids, do exceptionally well on a per participant basis also in the state tournament. I know it has been broken down before, but Raider Youth won the tournament the last few years (largely by having a high amount of participants), BUT they also had one the best if not the best average state placing per participant. I think that is pretty telling....get your participation numbers up and your kids will do better individually. It is common sense, but in a sport like wrestling the more work out partners you have the better you're going to get.

Personally I’m glad they got rid of team scoring at the youth level, small programs never seem to have a chance against the large programs. It had been suggested in the past to do a big school/small school set up, but no one seemed willing to change. However, at the youth level I am still a big fan of the 8 man brackets. Once the kids step up to middle school they will start seeing 16 man brackets on a regular basis. I can understand the thought process of mixing the age groups together, but at the youth level a 2 year age difference can mean a huge strength difference as well. Since the idea is to grow the sport of wrestling in KY, what harm is being done by allowing several state champs? I think by doing the 8 man brackets we have more winners and keep the interest of the kids involved. Like everything else in life, it get harder as you move up. MS wrestlers have to make their way through a long regular season and if they make it through Districts (in some cases fighting their way out of a 32 man bracket) to regions (8man bracket) to state (16 man bracket) at set weight classes, not the 10% rule. In HS, only 1 kid from each school can wrestle at the varsity level. So like anything else it is a progression of difficulty.

Every team has a chance! There is no evidence to support, at least with wrestling, that the larger the school the better the team. If you get the right people in place, any team can compete. There are many small schools in this state, that have not only competed, but have won state titles. Sheldon Clark and Union County are two examples.

Raidercoach there is no doubt you guys have a great program. In the past couple years it hasn't hurt that the Raiders have had a hand in putting the youth tournament together. Its a little easier to win if you can control some of the match ups. If you want a team champ you need to make weights and bigger brackets. If you don't is just watered down.

Raidercoach there is no doubt you guys have a great program. In the past couple years it hasn't hurt that the Raiders have had a hand in putting the youth tournament together. Its a little easier to win if you can control some of the match ups. If you want a team champ you need to make weights and bigger brackets. If you don't is just watered down.

Wow...that is a bold accusation and totally inaccurate. I don't recall us having anything to do with setting the brackets last year and it was arguably our most dominant state performance. The year before we ran the tournament and I personally was in the room when the brackets were drawn and there were NO controlling of match ups. I'd love to hear any evidence you have that we "controlled match ups", but I won't hold my breath because I know you have none. I guess haters are going to hate.

Raidercoach there is no doubt you guys have a great program. In the past couple years it hasn't hurt that the Raiders have had a hand in putting the youth tournament together. Its a little easier to win if you can control some of the match ups. If you want a team champ you need to make weights and bigger brackets. If you don't is just watered down.

There is no doubt the state tournament is watered down, but so is our high school tournament. The argument for letting everyone participate at state is to help grow the sport. I don't agree with making weight classes at the youth level for many reasons, but that is an old debate that I don't care to get into again.

I say we just eliminate the individual state placings and just put all of the kids in small round robin brackets, so they can wrestle everyone and give all of the kids a nice pretty yellow ribbon for showing up. As ridiculous as that sounds, that is essentially the same thinking that resulted in doing away with the team scores. THIS IS COMPETITION! Personally, I would be embarrassed as a coach and as a competitor to have voted to eliminate the team score because by doing so you are basically saying "I can't win, therefore, no one should win".

There really isn't one logical reason to eliminate team scores that benefits anyone, including those "smaller" programs that currently aren't very successful. Team scores are a quantitative measurement to demonstrate how your team compares with every other team. Our state tournament is the only youth tournament where most, unfortunately not all, of the teams from around the state show up. Without team scores, how do you know how your team stacks up against the rest of the state? Knowing where you stack up can only help you get better.

Every year we set a goal to win the state tournament as a team. We also look at the gap between us and the other teams compared to years in the past. Is it getting bigger or smaller? That's a great indicator of our success compared to the rest of the state. And we use that information to not only motivate our kids but to motivate the parents and the coaches. Most importantly as a coach, it is one of the ways we measure ourselves. Otherwise, how do you measure how you are performing as a coach?

The participation argument doesn't hold water with me. As a coach for Raider youth, we look at two main areas to determine our success: results on the mat and participation growth. Coaches need to analyze their participation: Are we growing or not? Are we retaining our kids or not? Do we have enough coaches per kid or not? The excuse I hear over and over is, "well we don't have as many kids as some of the larger programs so its not fair". Participation is a big measurement of how well the COACHES are performing. It is a huge part of competing as a coach. If the coaches can't get the numbers up and maintain participation to compete, then they need to either improve or get someone who can. Every great program in any sport has one or two people who are great recruiters. Simply saying "we can't get the numbers that other programs get" is just an excuse. After all, its not like Union, Ky is a huge metropolitan area. Its offensive how other coaches imply that large programs like Raider youth just opened the door and 100 kids showed up. It trivializes all of the hard work that many people put into building that program.

I'd like one of the coaches who voted against the team scores to explain how this will help anything. Obviously, being a coach for the defending state champions, we love having team scores because it helps us market our team and its fun being associated with a winning team. But, I would feel the same way if I coached a team that finished last at state. It makes no sense and certainly doesn't help promote the sport or the tournament.

I thought youth wresting was about development of wrestlers?

I guess we had something to do with the 7 Middle School finalist's brackets that came from our club too. We also bracketed the High School tournament to pave the way for all those Ryle State Champions. The only reason Kyle Ruschell was an All American was because our Youth Team conspired to create those brackets too.

Wow...that is a bold accusation and totally inaccurate. I don't recall us having anything to do with setting the brackets last year and it was arguably our most dominant state performance. The year before we ran the tournament and I personally was in the room when the brackets were drawn and there were NO controlling of match ups. I'd love to hear any evidence you have that we "controlled match ups", but I won't hold my breath because I know you have none. I guess haters are going to hate.

I would say that leaving 40 or so kids off the brackets from one of your rival programs could be considered as (evidence you have that we "controlled match ups") as you put it. Now, I seriously doubt that this was done with any intent, but you asked for evidence, I gave you something that could be considered evidence, do what you want with it.

I thought youth wresting was about development of wrestlers?

It is....and learning about competition is a HUGE part of that development. Is it not?

Raidercoach there is no doubt you guys have a great program. In the past couple years it hasn't hurt that the Raiders have had a hand in putting the youth tournament together. Its a little easier to win if you can control some of the match ups. If you want a team champ you need to make weights and bigger brackets. If you don't is just watered down.

Chris, I completely agree. The Raiders have an outstanding team and that shows at tourney time. However, when I walked into the youth state tourney this year I had two coaches (from different schools) tell me that the brackets had been completed by Thursday but were called into review and changed by one team’s head coach on the Friday before state. Why did a coach from outside the hosting region have to review the brackets? Why was a coach from outside of the region allowed to make changes? If I’m not mistaken, it is the hosting team/regions’ responsibility to set the brackets. So why would any coach from a team outside of the hosts be allowed to make changes? The coach was allowed to change the brackets around and then a couple of teams had kids that were completely missing from any brackets. I’m not pointing fingers or throwing anybody under the bus, just passing along what I was told. I know in my sons’ bracket it was set with 7 kids at the start, but 2 kids were left out. So when the brackets were adjusted yet again, my son had to wrestle 3 matches just to make the finals. If any of the above was not true, please feel free to correct me. I think that it is a great idea to rotate who hosts and share in the revenue made. But, that being said, the region needs to set everything and not share the brackets unless they are being sent to every youth head coach in the state.

Plantman, you simply got your facts wrong. The brackets were generated by a gentleman from Harrison County. We (multiple youth coaches) noticed they were not sorted correctly the night before, therefore they had to be re-done. The person who generated the brackets was also a High School coach and was unable to fix the problem; therefore, I volunteered to re-sort and print. The 40 SKY kids were left off the master spreadsheet I received from the Harrison County Coach. Not sure how exactly it happened, but it had absolutely nothing to do w/ us.

Every team has a chance! There is no evidence to support, at least with wrestling, that the larger the school the better the team. If you get the right people in place, any team can compete. There are many small schools in this state, that have not only competed, but have won state titles. Sheldon Clark and Union County are two examples.

I did not say the larger the school, the better the team. What I meant by saying the smaller schools don’t have a chance is that if I bring 100 kids to the tourney and 50 of them medal, how is a team of 25-30 kids expected to compete with that? I read that they can bust their butts doing recruiting and getting the word out to try to grow the program, and I can’t argue that. However if a team is working out in a small area and lacks parents with any wrestling experience they are going to be limited. Not every team has a full size gym to use. Most youth teams are sharing mats with the middle school and since practice is at the middle school, they must work around an already tight schedule.

^{You guys really should do some fact checking before you make these accusations. If it makes you feel better at night that the results would be different if we had larger brackets, weight classes, qualifying tournaments, no team scores, full disclosure on brackets and whatever other excuses you want to make than so be it. But, I know the Raider Coaches wouldn't do what you are implying. Anything that was done last year was done out of support in an attempt to get the brackets correct. All of this hating is just validation for our program.}

^{I did not say the larger the school, the better the team. What I meant by saying the smaller schools don’t have a chance is that if I bring 100 kids to the tourney and 50 of them medal, how is a team of 25-30 kids expected to compete with that? I read that they can bust their butts doing recruiting and getting the word out to try to grow the program, and I can’t argue that. However if a team is working out in a small area and lacks parents with any wrestling experience they are going to be limited. Not every team has a full size gym to use. Most youth teams are sharing mats with the middle school and since practice is at the middle school, they must work around an already tight schedule.}

^{Every obstacle you listed, every successful team dealt with at one point or another. I know we dealt with and continue to deal with everything you mentioned.}

Wow...that is a bold accusation and totally inaccurate. I don't recall us having anything to do with setting the brackets last year and it was arguably our most dominant state performance. The year before we ran the tournament and I personally was in the room when the brackets were drawn and there were NO controlling of match ups. I'd love to hear any evidence you have that we "controlled match ups", but I won't hold my breath because I know you have none. I guess haters are going to hate.

I find this funny because I have an excel spreadsheet that shows how messed up the bracketing was just from the 80-90 lbs for the 11-12 year olds from 2 years ago when your club ran the tourney. I didn’t even bother to look at some of the other age groups as we had an older youth team two years ago. But I’m sure I could go back and look if you really want to get into that. The way I see it is the past is the past and there is no sense in dwelling there. Only moving forward and trying not to let the same mistakes happen again.

I did not say the larger the school, the better the team. What I meant by saying the smaller schools don’t have a chance is that if I bring 100 kids to the tourney and 50 of them medal, how is a team of 25-30 kids expected to compete with that? I read that they can bust their butts doing recruiting and getting the word out to try to grow the program, and I can’t argue that. However if a team is working out in a small area and lacks parents with any wrestling experience they are going to be limited. Not every team has a full size gym to use. Most youth teams are sharing mats with the middle school and since practice is at the middle school, they must work around an already tight schedule.

You compete by getting more kids out!

Let me clear the air about the brackets. The brackets were originally sorted by Birth Year and then Weight; therefore, all the brackets were completely screwed up. The brackets are suppose to be sorted by Birth Group....HUGE DIFFERENCE. For example, we did not have 1999/2000 brackets but 1999 and 2000 brackets. What's the problem w/ that? Well, the weight classes had a much larger weight % spread. Almost all the weight classes were 5% or higher. We had many brackets at 9% and 10%. Once we corrected the issue, the average spread was well under 5% (I believe closer to 2%). I have used the software multiple times and was there when we spotted the problem; therefore, I got stuck re-bracketing until 3 AM the night before an all day of wrestling.

Also, the previous year, I sent all the brackets out to EVERY coach in the state in advance to eliminate these type of issues. Also, it allows the conspiracy theorists (we seem to have a bunch) to examine the brackets and question anything that looked suspicious. I recommended this to this year's host Region, but they decided not to.

I find this funny because I have an excel spreadsheet that shows how messed up the bracketing was just from the 80-90 lbs for the 11-12 year olds from 2 years ago when your club ran the tourney. I didn’t even bother to look at some of the other age groups as we had an older youth team two years ago. But I’m sure I could go back and look if you really want to get into that. The way I see it is the past is the past and there is no sense in dwelling there. Only moving forward and trying not to let the same mistakes happen again.

Yes...I want you to go back and look into it. Don't be a coward and come on here and accuse someone of cheating with NO evidence other than saying "how messed up the bracketing was..." and then say the past is the past. If you have convincing evidence, you can PM me and I will personally hand deliver our state trophy to whoever got second place that year. I know it didn't happen because I WAS THERE. The only thing we did was attempt to separate kids from the same region from the same side of the bracket, which is what has always been done in the past and is what is done at every level including middle school and high school.

Thunderstruck, you show me that spreadsheet and I guarantee there is an explanation you are not considering. The brackets have to be be "messed" with to a degree. There cannot be more than 2 kids per program in one bracket; therefore, there is a shuffling process of moving kids up and down. Either the heaviest or lightest gets moved up or down. As you can imagine, this creates a ripple effect.

You compete by getting more kids out!

We don't have room or the extra mats. So, we just can't take in anymore kids than what we presently have.

We don't have room or the extra mats. So, we just can't take in anymore kids than what we presently have.

Get another room and have a fund raiser to buy another mat...thats what we had to do.

Yes...I want you to go back and look into it. Don't be a coward and come on here and accuse someone of cheating with NO evidence other than saying "how messed up the bracketing was..." and then say the past is the past. If you have convincing evidence, you can PM me and I will personally hand deliver our state trophy to whoever got second place that year. I know it didn't happen because I WAS THERE. The only thing we did was attempt to separate kids from the same region from the same side of the bracket, which is what has always been done in the past and is what is done at every level including middle school and high school.

Fair enough, MLee just hit the nail on the head. I did not realize that an attempt was made to separate kids by region. The way I see it is if we have 8 kids that weigh the same thing, why not bracket them together and end ANY controversy. If they happen to be with the same program, separate them on the bracket. Then the problem is solved and no argument can be made. If that was the case, why did my son face a kid from his same region in the opening round? It is not a crime to be consistent! Look, before anyone starts giving me grief I know big programs have a problem with their kids facing each other, but that happens with the smaller programs as well and it IS part of youth wrestling. I can’t begin to tell you how many times one of our own has had to face a teammate. When it happens, our coaches let the kids go and wrestle. We keep our mouths closed during the match but in our own gym we talk to them about what they can do to improve so the next time they face off they could have a totally different result.

Yes...I want you to go back and look into it. Don't be a coward and come on here and accuse someone of cheating with NO evidence other than saying "how messed up the bracketing was..." and then say the past is the past. If you have convincing evidence, you can PM me and I will personally hand deliver our state trophy to whoever got second place that year. I know it didn't happen because I WAS THERE. The only thing we did was attempt to separate kids from the same region from the same side of the bracket, which is what has always been done in the past and is what is done at every level including middle school and high school.

As far as being called a coward it is easy to do behind a screen name.

Fair enough, MLee just hit the nail on the head. I did not realize that an attempt was made to separate kids by region. The way I see it is if we have 8 kids that weigh the same thing, why not bracket them together and end ANY controversy. If they happen to be with the same program, separate them on the bracket. Then the problem is solved and no argument can be made. If that was the case, why did my son face a kid from his same region in the opening round? It is not a crime to be consistent! Look, before anyone starts giving me grief I know big programs have a problem with their kids facing each other, but that happens with the smaller programs as well and it IS part of youth wrestling. I can’t begin to tell you how many times one of our own has had to face a teammate. When it happens, our coaches let the kids go and wrestle. We keep our mouths closed during the match but in our own gym we talk to them about what they can do to improve so the next time they face off they could have a totally different result.

As far as being called a coward it is easy to do behind a screen name.

Ha...it's not too hard to figure out who I am if you have been paying attention. And if you keep accusing us of cheating without any evidence, I'll call you a coward to your face the next time I see you....thunderstruck. I guess that is your name.

Ha...it's not too hard to figure out who I am if you have been paying attention. And if you keep accusing us of cheating without any evidence, I'll call you a coward to your face the next time I see you....thunderstruck. I guess that is your name.

Fair enough, MLee just hit the nail on the head. I did not realize that an attempt was made to separate kids by region. The way I see it is if we have 8 kids that weigh the same thing, why not bracket them together and end ANY controversy. If they happen to be with the same program, separate them on the bracket. Then the problem is solved and no argument can be made. If that was the case, why did my son face a kid from his same region in the opening round? It is not a crime to be consistent! Look, before anyone starts giving me grief I know big programs have a problem with their kids facing each other, but that happens with the smaller programs as well and it IS part of youth wrestling. I can’t begin to tell you how many times one of our own has had to face a teammate. When it happens, our coaches let the kids go and wrestle. We keep our mouths closed during the match but in our own gym we talk to them about what they can do to improve so the next time they face off they could have a totally different result.

As far as being called a coward it is easy to do behind a screen name.

Mr. ThunderstruckX2 (apparently you don't use a screen name), how long have you been around youth wrestling? These scenarios happen at every tournament. Do you know how many Raiders had to face someone from the same region? If you ever ran a tournament before then you would understand how many things could go wrong and how much tinkering has to be done to make the brackets make sense. It is never perfect and there will always be a few pissed off parents or coaches. However, I think the unanimous opinion was that when we ran the tournament, it went very smooth and the brackets were as good as you can get them. I assure you that the people involved with our team are class acts and would sooner have our kids face stiff competition than rig the brackets so we could win the tournament. We were very aware of the perception of the host team rigging the brackets. Hence, we went out of our way to make sure paranoid people didn't have a reason to believe we tinkered with the brackets to our favor....and yet we still get people claiming we do. It is a can't win situation. I apologize for coming off like a hard ass about this, but I take it as a personal attack that is unfounded. It makes my blood boil when people make these accusations, because you are essentually calling us cheaters and dimenishing our hard work. I'm all for finding a system that is full disclosure and eliminates these concerns, but when we do what will your excuses be then?

I swore once I moved on that I would never comment on this site again, but after reading what both raidercoach and MLee have posted on here I couldn't hold back.

I have no need to hide behind a screen name- my name is Zack Smith and I coached for the past five years for Conner Middle School and spent some time with the youth team as well. As you know, year in and year out Conner battles it out with Ryle youth for the top spot in the youth tournament why is that? Numbers, hands down it comes down to the numbers. I went to the youth state tournament several years ago and I was blown away by how good Union's youth team was that year. They had around 16 kids and I swore that I didn't see a Union kid lose all day, yet Union finished 5 or 6th? I cannot remember it’s been several years ago. The reason Ryle and Conner both are successful is because they have large numbers of kids, and while I am not taking anything away from either program everyone know this. Yes Ryle and Conner coaches put in huge amounts of their time, I've seen it and vouch for it, but both of these programs pull kids from their own middle school team and others. Majority of these kids are studs too. I can name probably 15 or more in my five years with Conner Middle. And I know you don't want to hear it raidercoach but there always seems to be scoring issues and odd bracket pairings at these tournaments. I always thought it was funny that the Grandstaff twins would always have to wrestle each other in the finals with very few Raider kids, maybe one at most, in their bracket. Yet four, five other Gray kids who were tough, nowhere near the Grandstaff's, would be placed in other brackets and "Win" a state title. I also remember when Conner clearly won a state title three years ago, yet Ryle won the title when the scores were read. Only after Conner coaches reviewed the brackets figured out that Conner should have won by 40 points. After reviewing this Conner was rightfully awarded a state title, after Raider coaches threw arguably the biggest hissy fit that comes to mind. Conner went from losing by 60 points to winning by 40. Odd right??

As a former coach of a successful Middle school team as well, I am supportive of getting rid of team scoring in both youth and at the middle school level. Very successful wrestling states such as New Jersey, Penn., and Ohio run their tournament this way. I firmly believe in state dual tournament formats to determine a team champion but I like the idea of an individual state tournament being just that for individuals and not team. That’s just personal preference. Also I will say this over and over again; the idea of having 4 state champs at one weight class is beyond insane. I have spoke with one very influential person about this on numerous occasions and he has provided insight on why that is, but I don't agree with it at all. Thunder I know you support the decision and we have talked about it at some middle school events, but I think the state would only get better if we only put one state champion out there and not 4.

And raidercoach, "haters just going to hate"??? Seriously? Are you a coach, a kid, or a punk? I would never associate a coach of youth sports to have that kind of mentality. Maybe you’re trying to live through your kids or something. Some of the comments that you have posted have made me scratch my head. Not every school has the ability to "get a bigger room, or get more mats". Stan Martin did wonders for that program getting the mats and room to practice, but not every school has a Stan Martin, or Pat Lee running their program. Some programs don’t have the support Ryle does, not only in the community but with the parents/family as well.

Suck it up, the majority voted, if I had a vote I would have voted the same way. If you’re really concerned about your state title keep your own score and brackets and award your kids with an imaginary trophy.

I swore once I moved on that I would never comment on this site again, but after reading what both raidercoach and MLee have posted on here I couldn't hold back.

I have no need to hide behind a screen name- my name is Zack Smith and I coached for the past five years for Conner Middle School and spent some time with the youth team as well. As you know, year in and year out Conner battles it out with Ryle youth for the top spot in the youth tournament why is that? Numbers, hands down it comes down to the numbers. I went to the youth state tournament several years ago and I was blown away by how good Union's youth team was that year. They had around 16 kids and I swore that I didn't see a Union kid lose all day, yet Union finished 5 or 6th? I cannot remember it’s been several years ago. The reason Ryle and Conner both are successful is because they have large numbers of kids, and while I am not taking anything away from either program everyone know this. Yes Ryle and Conner coaches put in huge amounts of their time, I've seen it and vouch for it, but both of these programs pull kids from their own middle school team and others. Majority of these kids are studs too. I can name probably 15 or more in my five years with Conner Middle. And I know you don't want to hear it raidercoach but there always seems to be scoring issues and odd bracket pairings at these tournaments. I always thought it was funny that the Grandstaff twins would always have to wrestle each other in the finals with very few Raider kids, maybe one at most, in their bracket. Yet four, five other Gray kids who were tough, nowhere near the Grandstaff's, would be placed in other brackets and "Win" a state title. I also remember when Conner clearly won a state title three years ago, yet Ryle won the title when the scores were read. Only after Conner coaches reviewed the brackets figured out that Conner should have won by 40 points. After reviewing this Conner was rightfully awarded a state title, after Raider coaches threw arguably the biggest hissy fit that comes to mind. Conner went from losing by 60 points to winning by 40. Odd right??

As a former coach of a successful Middle school team as well, I am supportive of getting rid of team scoring in both youth and at the middle school level. Very successful wrestling states such as New Jersey, Penn., and Ohio run their tournament this way. I firmly believe in state dual tournament formats to determine a team champion but I like the idea of an individual state tournament being just that for individuals and not team. That’s just personal preference. Also I will say this over and over again; the idea of having 4 state champs at one weight class is beyond insane. I have spoke with one very influential person about this on numerous occasions and he has provided insight on why that is, but I don't agree with it at all. Thunder I know you support the decision and we have talked about it at some middle school events, but I think the state would only get better if we only put one state champion out there and not 4.

And raidercoach, "haters just going to hate"??? Seriously? Are you a coach, a kid, or a punk? I would never associate a coach of youth sports to have that kind of mentality. Maybe you’re trying to live through your kids or something. Some of the comments that you have posted have made me scratch my head. Not every school has the ability to "get a bigger room, or get more mats". Stan Martin did wonders for that program getting the mats and room to practice, but not every school has a Stan Martin, or Pat Lee running their program. Some programs don’t have the support Ryle does, not only in the community but with the parents/family as well.

Suck it up, the majority voted, if I had a vote I would have voted the same way. If you’re really concerned about your state title keep your own score and brackets and award your kids with an imaginary trophy.

Zach, let me be clear, I'm all for revising the team scoring in some fasion, but removing them all together eliminates the element of team competition which helps drive teams to get better. I love the current team scoring system, because it pushes each team to get more participants in order to compete. I've helped coach at Connor Middle and Raider youth (I believe I coached you when you were much smaller!) and getting participation up should be a priority as a coach. There is no question, that as coaches and as competitive people, that trying to win the youth team state title has motivated the Raider coaches to get more kids out every year, which in turn puts pressure on Connor, CC, SK and everyone else to do the same in order to compete. I'm just concerned that by eliminating the team score all together, that competitive spark between coaches/teams will go away and stunt the great growth we have seen over the years. At the end of the day, I want Raider youth to win, but I LOVE seeing how good ALL of NKY wrestling has gotten over the years, largely in part to the competitive dynamic between the youth teams.

Also, I remember the Connor/Raider incident and none of the current coaches from Raiders were even around when that happened. Also, the Grandstaffs did not have to wrestle each other the year we hosted. In fact, I know their dad very well and he personally thanked us for not putting them in the same bracket. To be honest, we didn't separate them, but it was just the way it worked out. They wrestled each other when CC hosted, not Raiders.

As far as my "haters going to hate" comment, you have to understand that there is a large contingent of people who hate Raider youth because they are successful. You don't have to look further than this message board for proof. Its the same reason people hate the Yankees and UK hoops, its because they win. No one will ever admit it, but I assure you a big part of the motivation to eliminate team scores had more to do with the hate and jealousy for Raider youth than anything productive. I can safely say that because there is no logical benefit to eliminating team scores. It benefits no one other than the people who are sick of losing and have convinced themselves they can't compete.

I know Stan Martin and Pat Lee very well and I assure you they aren't special! They just had a "can do" attitude and didn't accept no as an answer to things like "we don't have a big enough room" or "we don't have enough mats". They are very motivated people and were very good at the administrative part of running a team which I would argue is more important with youth than being a good technician. Stan handed the torch to Matt Lee and he's kept the fire going at Raider youth. Those dudes had regular meetings in the offseason to discuss the transition from Stan to Matt like they were a Fortune 500 company transitioning between CEO's.

Ha! I had no idea this topic would snowball like it has. I do love how there is so much passion about youth wrestling in the middle of June. I'm convinced, we need to bring back State Duals at the youth level!

I am one that is not in favor of keeping team scores at the individual state tourney. If you want a state champ make a dual state tourney. I believe this should happen on every level Youth, Middle and High school.

Raider: How would you measure your team against others? Very easily. I don't need team scores to know if the kids I coached were not competitive enough.

How would it benifit? Easy teams can focus on their kids individually and not worry about trying to win a team title. Seeding meeting will be more true (I know they don't have those at youth). I've seen it many times when coaches don't vote for the right seeds so that it benifits their "Team points".

As for the Youth. These are kids in elementry school. I remember when GOO Jr. was in Youth and I told him his team were champions he said oh cool. It didn't really matter to him. All he cared about was he and his freinds winning as many matches as they could. I would say that the coaches and parents are the only real people who care about the team title. The kids could care less all they want is their individual wins and titles.

I am one that is not in favor of keeping team scores at the individual state tourney. If you want a state champ make a dual state tourney. I believe this should happen on every level Youth, Middle and High school.

Raider: How would you measure your team against others? Very easily. I don't need team scores to know if the kids I coached were not competitive enough.

How would it benifit? Easy teams can focus on their kids individually and not worry about trying to win a team title. Seeding meeting will be more true (I know they don't have those at youth). I've seen it many times when coaches don't vote for the right seeds so that it benifits their "Team points".

As for the Youth. These are kids in elementry school. I remember when GOO Jr. was in Youth and I told him his team were champions he said oh cool. It didn't really matter to him. All he cared about was he and his freinds winning as many matches as they could. I would say that the coaches and parents are the only real people who care about the team title. The kids could care less all they want is their individual wins and titles.

I'm all for a dual tournament. I suggest we do both just like high school, that would be better than not doing anything.

I disagree with your take on being competitive. Goals need to be measurable, not simply pass the "eye test". You are selling yourself short as a coach if you don't set clear and measurable goals as a team.

Your take on the benefit makes no sense. As a coach, we don't change our practices around winning a team title nor do we worry about it. I know you've been around state championship teams. How intense and productive were the practices leading up to the state tournament? Our practices the weeks leading up to state are always our best because all of our kids our focused as a team because of the team's goal. This in turn improves their individual perfomances in practice and in the tournament.

GOO Jr might not care, but I promise you kids care. Our kids love being apart of a "state champion" team, no matter how diluted or rigged people claim it is. It helps us market the team to other kids. It is basic marketing...people want to be associated with winners...not whiners.

I'm done debating over this. Other than GOO's failed attempt no one has even tried to present any logical benefit to eliminating the team scores. I just wish the people who voted would just be honest with themselves and admit the real reason why they got rid of it. Naturally, the only people who are going to be upset over this are from the team that wins it....which has been Raider youth for the past few years. Everyone else is either not going to care or against it, which I think is gutless. Like I said earlier, if everone is so afraid to lose, then why don't we just hand out "Participation" ribbons at state to everyone that shows up? Why is it okay to compete on an individual basis with youth kids, but it makes no sense on a team basis? Why is okay at Middle School and High School to keep team scores, but its not with youth? You can't make a case for it without being hypocritical. Competition should drive us to be better, not scare us into not wanting to compete.

I would aslo contend that the tournament would run faster and smoother without team scores. I know we have computers now but there is always mistakes. It may not seem much but saving 15 seconds on each match can add up to a lot of time saved over the day.

With competition comes longer matches with longer matches comes longer tournaments. If there is one individual thing that is hurting our sport the most is the long saturdays. How many other sports practice 5 days a week then spend an entire 6th day at their sporting event? We who love wrestling don't care about the time however those we are trying to get hooked on wrestling do care and those are the ones we need to get involved and interested in our sport. If we can shorten the day on elementary then we can get those parents hooked and they won't care about the long saturdays when they get to high school.

Giving every kid a ribbon or medal in gradeschool is not a big deal. That is what youth sports are about, getting the kids excited about that sport. I know in baseball (T-ball) they don't have wins and loses the first 2 or so years and no champion. It's so they get the kids excited about the sport.

RC: Don't stop debating because some have turned this issue into a witch hunt against your team. (That is not my intent) Good debates lead to better understanding and overall better decision making by all. Even I have been known to bend my opinion a little over a good debate. Mrs. GOO and I "DEBATE" all the time, I usually have to bend my opion when that happens.

Oh, where do I start.

First, let's go back to youth state tournaments past. I believe the year of the Conner/Raider debacle we were the host. I don't believe it was a "Raider" issue. They may have thrown a fit, but that is somewhat understandable to have a trophy taken from your team.

Second, last year's re-bracketing. Saturday night I walked by the room as the coaches were dealing with the bracketing problem. A number of coaches were talked to about the issue and everyone agreed that Matt Lee was the best guy to deal with the issue due to his knowledge of the program. And to the best of my understanding he was not alone is fixing the problem.

So, on both of those issues there is no witch hunt in my mind. Nothing wrong with Raiders in any way.

NOW, team scoring at the state tournament. I will admit I was one of the voices against keeping team scores. Showed up at the meeting and voiced my opinion. And just in case you are wondering raidercoach, it has nothing to do with my fear of competing against you. I'll line up my best and take on your guys any day of the week. GOO hit the nail on the head for my major gripe. The team scoring is a nightmare. Because of the random nature of scoring kids it is virtually impossible to automate or computerize the scoring. That is why the snafu came up a few years ago. I remember watching Pat Lee franticly try to tally the scores a few years ago and admit he couldn't possibly get it right. Running this event is enough of a logistics headache that in my mind team scoring shouldn't contribute to that pain. If the Raiders want to take the brackets, score the event, buy a trophy, and announce you are the winners I am all for it. But under the current format (no weight classes) I DO NOT support team scoring. Set the weight classes so we can run a standard scoring program and I will be on board.

One last thing. The big problem I have with the numbers argument is those numbers should be kids that practice with you all season. I get a little ticked when I see a kid show up at the state tournament wearing a different singlet than he has worn all season. Compete for Team A or Team B.

I believe I stated this before, but I can care less about the results. The final results of the tournament should not be our focus. My concern is what happens when the competitiveness is removed.

As Raidercoach mentioned, Youth Wrestling in our state has increased dramatically. To me, that should be the fundamental goal of all clubs but certainly that of our Youth officials. If we are achieving our primary goal of attracting more kids/parents/coaches to our sport, why the rush to get rid of teams scores w/ one vote? Why not listen to a few different ideas first? Do the team scores help draw more kids? Does the spectacle of the tournament help retain kids? If so, then under no circumstances do I say we change it.

Also, sorry Ranger, I refuse to believe someone with your intellect cannot figure our our team scoring. It couldn't be more easy and I have been baffled how it gets messed up. For those who don't know, here is our youth scoring system: 1st place=4pts, 2nd=3pts, 3rd=2pts, 4th=1pt. Only one participant from a team can score per bracket. THAT IS IT! No advancement points, pin/tech/major pts....NOTHING. Ranger, not sure how in the world you do your rankings, but I'm quite sure it is more complicated than this. All the host team needs to do is receive all brackets and have the ability to add. I'm aware of a few obstacles we have w/ receiving the brackets and blah, blah, blah, but come on! S Oldham did the team scores when we hosted (so we're not taking any credit) and they had it done 5 minutes after the final match and it was accurate. I know, because I triple checked after the tournament.

Once again, I'm in favor of exploring all other options before dismantling what appears to be working. We all can agree that Youth Wrestling in our state is much better today. I just would hate for us to take a step backwards after all the hard work.

NOW, team scoring at the state tournament. I will admit I was one of the voices against keeping team scores. Showed up at the meeting and voiced my opinion. And just in case you are wondering raidercoach, it has nothing to do with my fear of competing against you. I'll line up my best and take on your guys any day of the week. GOO hit the nail on the head for my major gripe. The team scoring is a nightmare. Because of the random nature of scoring kids it is virtually impossible to automate or computerize the scoring. That is why the snafu came up a few years ago. I remember watching Pat Lee franticly try to tally the scores a few years ago and admit he couldn't possibly get it right. Running this event is enough of a logistics headache that in my mind team scoring shouldn't contribute to that pain. If the Raiders want to take the brackets, score the event, buy a trophy, and announce you are the winners I am all for it. But under the current format (no weight classes) I DO NOT support team scoring. Set the weight classes so we can run a standard scoring program and I will be on board. One last thing. The big problem I have with the numbers argument is those numbers should be kids that practice with you all season. I get a little ticked when I see a kid show up at the state tournament wearing a different singlet than he has worn all season. Compete for Team A or Team B.

I'm not in full support of having weight classes for many reasons that have already been beaten to death. However, if our only choice is to have weight classes with team scoring or no weight classes and no team scoring, I suppose I'd change my stance. Ranger, you were in the meeting, was it ever discussed to modify the state scoring or move to a dual format?

I firmly believe that team scoring at state has helped drive up numbers for some teams which at the end of the day is a huge benefit. I like the current scoring because it does reward teams with big numbers, which is a good thing. If I were a youth coach on a small team, I would be committed to driving up numbers to perform better at state...its just that simple. If you look around at the growth in youth, particularly in NKY, its hard to argue that what we are doing isn't working. You may disagree with my claim that team scoring helps drive up numbers, but consider this: if only one team is committed to driving up numbers to be competitive, then isn't it safe to say that their competition will follow suit in order to compete with said team? I think that has happened in NKY to a certain degree. I could care less about the trophy or the claim that we are state champs because I am well aware of how flawed the scoring is perceived.

I don't expect anyone to come on here and claim their motivation to eliminate team scores was partly due to their belief they can't compete with the Raiders or Connor because of the numbers. But, I know deep down that it had something to do with the decision. I've been associated with 4 teams in NKY in my career, so I've been on the other side of the Raider machine longer than I've been with them. I know how people outside their program feel about them, there is a deep rooted envy and I've seen it first hand. While people are going to get on here and claim their decision was for whatever reason, I KNOW deep down some (maybe not all) of the people who were behind this decision did so because of their dislike of the Raiders.

As far as the kids wrestling for different teams, we have youth aged kids wrestle middle school during the season and compete for us at state. In every instance that I can think of, they wrestled their youth with us in the past and not with another team. I don't really like it, but if the kid wants to wrestle both its hard to say no. Its no different than a middle school kid wrestling at both middle and high school state.

The different team issue is not isolated to Raiders; heard it happens in the Louisville/Oldham area as well. The big difference in your example is that wrestling for the high school will require you to be in the same school system. I can only speak to the Raider kids, but I know that is not the case at the youth level. Kids are going to different schools and competing for other middle school programs then showing up with a Raider singlet at state. Yes, the kids I know competed for Raiders at the youth level, but it just rubs me wrong when they compete for another program during the season, then Raiders at state. My question is do they pay the club fee to join the team or do they get a "deal"?

As a coach in one of the most successful programs in this state that has grown and flourished over the last few years, I can say with 100% certainty that team finish at the youth state tournament has absolutely NO impact on our participation. And I don't see that changing. To this point I have heard 1 club make that claim.

Back to fear and envy, again, I couldn't care less how many youth state titles the Raiders win. Great for you guys. I know you have a lot of great wrestlers and good coaches. And with your numbers your results are what I would expect. Does that hurt me or my program? Not one bit. Our focus is preparing these kids for middle school and high school wrestling. And as I recall those titles are sitting somewhere else in Northern KY.

As far as options, there really were not many ideas discussed. Those in attendance were in favor of getting rid of the scoring rather than debate an alternate plan. I'm sure I coulld devise some plan for automating the scoring, especially if we discussed alternate plans. But I'm not prepared to spend the time or brain power on that right now as I don't see it contributing to growth outside of your program. I'm all for a dual competition; imagine it would be a blast. But again, that would require set weight classes.

Come on Matt. Dismantling? We are just saying don't mess with team scores at the event. No one is keeping you from doing that when you get home.

The different team issue is not isolated to Raiders; heard it happens in the Louisville/Oldham area as well. The big difference in your example is that wrestling for the high school will require you to be in the same school system. I can only speak to the Raider kids, but I know that is not the case at the youth level. Kids are going to different schools and competing for other middle school programs then showing up with a Raider singlet at state. Yes, the kids I know competed for Raiders at the youth level, but it just rubs me wrong when they compete for another program during the season, then Raiders at state. My question is do they pay the club fee to join the team or do they get a "deal"?

As a coach in one of the most successful programs in this state that has grown and flourished over the last few years, I can say with 100% certainty that team finish at the youth state tournament has absolutely NO impact on our participation. And I don't see that changing. To this point I have heard 1 club make that claim.

Back to fear and envy, again, I couldn't care less how many youth state titles the Raiders win. Great for you guys. I know you have a lot of great wrestlers and good coaches. And with your numbers your results are what I would expect. Does that hurt me or my program? Not one bit. Our focus is preparing these kids for middle school and high school wrestling. And as I recall those titles are sitting somewhere else in Northern KY.

As far as options, there really were not many ideas discussed. Those in attendance were in favor of getting rid of the scoring rather than debate an alternate plan. I'm sure I coulld devise some plan for automating the scoring, especially if we discussed alternate plans. But I'm not prepared to spend the time or brain power on that right now as I don't see it contributing to growth outside of your program. I'm all for a dual competition; imagine it would be a blast. But again, that would require set weight classes.

Come on Matt. Dismantling? We are just saying don't mess with team scores at the event. No one is keeping you from doing that when you get home.

Ranger,

Raiders are a club team. We have kids that will go on to wrestle for WV, Ryle and possibly Cooper. The emergence of WV's and Cooper's youth teams will eventually create a scenario where Raider kids will mostly go to Ryle and some to WV, but that is up to the family, not us. They have the same issue in Louisville. CC doesn't have nearly as many youth programs to compete with, so you guys don't have this issue. We have 4 large youth programs cranking in Boone County now, where you have Newport and CC, which geographically speaking are pretty far apart compared to our 4 teams. It is a lot different over here.

If it rubs you the wrong way to see some middle school kids wrestle for the youth team they grew up in, it must have really bothered you to see those two state champions lead CC to that high school title you are boasting about after transferring midseason, right? You walked right into that one! I agree with you on this topic. I don't like it when I'm coaching a kid at state I haven't seen all year long. But, it is the kid's right to wrestle both and until every middle/high school team has a youth feeder, this issue will always be there.

I think you are wrong about the state tournament scoring not having ANY impact on your team. I've said it before; it helps fuel the competition between our teams, in particular with the coaches, which motivates your team to be bigger and better. I doubt in a lot of instances coaches are even conscious of the effect, but I'm sure its there. I have had many conversations with coaches from other teams about how bad they want to kick our butts. Well if they are chasing us and getting bigger and better in the meantime and we are chasing the team state title, then wouldn't that be a beneficial cause and effect of the team scoring?

You know good and well that having your team recognized by the state as team champion is a lot different than doing it yourself when you get home.

So, after all of this debate back and forth....where should I send my youngest son who is 4 years old to wrestle?

Our payment policy is as follows:

$100 for new kids

$50 for returning state champs

We pay Middle School placers $50 to wrestle for us

$25 bounty for beating any CC wrestler

We've done extensive research into how the University of Miami Hurricanes recruit and how the New Orleans Saints motivate players. We have used these invaluable techniques to build an empire.

We also implemented Eastern European and Lance Armstrong training methods to maximize our wrestlers' full potential.

Wow! This has turned into entertainment for the masses.

So, after all of this debate back and forth....where should I send my youngest son who is 4 years old to wrestle?

Where do you live? If you live near Union or anywhere in Campbell County, he should wrestle for the Raiders. Also, if your last name is Carr, Cooper, Ervin, Merritt or Gable, then he should wrestle for the Raiders regardless of where you live.

So, after all of this debate back and forth....where should I send my youngest son who is 4 years old to wrestle?

If you live in or near Jefferson County, I could speak to you about the benefits of a faith based education/club. We are looking into forming a Colbert type PAC for donations to compete with the NKY teams.

raidercoach and tiltfor3 - I appreciate your help with trying to guide me and my son in the right direction. I currently live in NKY and just hope my son shares the same passion and exhuberance for the sport that we all have...or learn to have. I have a pretty good idea of what program(s) I will start my son out in. Thanks for your help.

Right here is another beniit to no team scores. No more confussion on why a team wins or how.

I'm not sure how the rules are for Youth, but if a kid is wrestling for say Newports middle school program they have no right to wrestle for Campbell's Youth program. This would be true on any level. (And your correct I have a problem with the way CC won the high school title and it will always have an asterik in my minds eye).

Competitiom between the coaches may be true but that does not travel down to most of the kids. If you say coaches will coach harder if they are trying to catch up or stay ahead. Then those coaches are coaching for the wrong reason.

I personally will help anyone from any school that needs help, if I can give it. This is exceptionally true at the Youth level. Way back when I had my own team I helped other teams who competed against my kids. I even told my kids weaknesses, in the long run it made both kids better.

Why is their a scoreboard if the score doesnt matter? of course their should be a team sccoring, they just need to revise the age sepertion, should only be 1 weight class with no age restrictions beyond having to be apart of the youth program. This way all the "smaller schools" will stand a chance and wont have this argument for taking away team scores. I know as a youth wrestler i loved for my team to win, and as a high school wrestler i love it just as much. So why take away the scoring? instead of simply taking away all the age groups, who wants to partake in a sport where there is no winner? losers

Right here is another beniit to no team scores. No more confussion on why a team wins or how.

I'm not sure how the rules are for Youth, but if a kid is wrestling for say Newports middle school program they have no right to wrestle for Campbell's Youth program. This would be true on any level. (And your correct I have a problem with the way CC won the high school title and it will always have an asterik in my minds eye).

Competitiom between the coaches may be true but that does not travel down to most of the kids. If you say coaches will coach harder if they are trying to catch up or stay ahead. Then those coaches are coaching for the wrong reason.

I personally will help anyone from any school that needs help, if I can give it. This is exceptionally true at the Youth level. Way back when I had my own team I helped other teams who competed against my kids. I even told my kids weaknesses, in the long run it made both kids better.

GOO,

There is no confusion on our part. Every kid that competes for the Raiders is a legitimate part of our team. We have had a handful of kids that live outside of the Ryle district (either in WV or Cooper), but they started with us. With the emergence of the other programs, they either elected to stay or go. We have LOST kids and coaches to WV and Cooper, but we haven't taken any kids from other programs in the few years I've been here. I don't know why that is being made an issue at all. In fact, CC has it made compared to us. We have the top 2 programs in the state from the same county and 2 others emerging faster than Newport. Furthermore, Newport and Alexandria are on polar opposite sides of the county geographically. Walton, Union, Florence and Burlington are on top of each other. You guys are on an island out there compared to us.

ridemout: This occurs in many grade school age programs. I know in knothole baseball the first 2 years (maybe more) there is no official score kept and no winner or loser.

I'm not sure how the gradeschool football, or basketball works, but I seem to remember when GOO Jr. played gradeschool basketball they didn't keep score the first year or so. The coaches know who scored or won the game but no one else officially.

Ok, so all I do is answer the questions posed and ask a couple of equally legitamite questions and mlee and raidercoach become 3rd graders? I was there to vote and you know my opinion on the matter. If you want to discuss it further come talk to me.

By the way, I'm fine discussing the high school team issue. I won't discuss it on this site as eligibility is part of the discussion and we are supposed to avoid that here. But I have my opinion and have not hid my feelings.

rideemout - last time I checked there is generally no scoreboard for team scores in wrestling. And in this case no one except those running the event typically have any clue what the team scores are. No losers here. Plenty of gold medals and even more important life lessons and true friendships have proven otherwise.

Ok, so all I do is answer the questions posed and ask a couple of equally legitamite questions and mlee and raidercoach become 3rd graders? I was there to vote and you know my opinion on the matter. If you want to discuss it further come talk to me.

By the way, I'm fine discussing the high school team issue. I won't discuss it on this site as eligibility is part of the discussion and we are supposed to avoid that here. But I have my opinion and have not hid my feelings.

rideemout - last time I checked there is generally no scoreboard for team scores in wrestling. And in this case no one except those running the event typically have any clue what the team scores are. No losers here. Plenty of gold medals and even more important life lessons and true friendships have proven otherwise.

Come on Ranger, don't resort to name calling. You asked a loaded question implying that we don't charge members who practice with the middle school. Stop dancing around what you want to say and just come out and call us cheaters. Coach Lee and I just inserted a little humor at your expense.

I find it pretty transparent that while you claim the decision was made to eliminate team scores because of complexity and time, that you immediately transitioned into questioning how the Raiders charge members of the team and how it rubs you the wrong way that some of our kids show up at state after wrestling in middle school all year. You even got a little boastful and challenged us to a dual. You clearly take issue with some things about the Raiders program...its obvious. Just admit your hate, you will feel much better.

Just trying to lighten the mood, Ranger.

By the way, the topic of getting rid of team scores was never even brought up before that meeting. It was brought up as a suggestion, then voted on by mostly Middle School coaches (from what I was told, I was on vacation) and w/in minutes it was changed. I believe it is an important issue that deserves more thought and discussion.

I'll admit my hate. I hate both programs.

Wow I feel much better now.

there is still a score and a scoreboard on paper maybe not for everyone to see but it is there. And why must everyone win? losing not only shows where you ned improvement but also gives motivation.

Stan Martin here. I've been out of Youth for a few years but had a great deal to do with getting our State Association started. I'm hearing in this forum a lot of misconceptions we fought thru in the formation of the association. Maybe, I can help clear them up.

- Weight classes, there are true weight classes at all youth events. They are grouped from the lowest weight to the highest, 8 kids at a time unless there is a greater than 10% difference from the lowest weight. We tried having set weight classes in the 1st couple state tourneys, USA Wrestling weights. Over 50% of the brackets had less than 4 kids making the tournament have over 120 brackets. The 10% rule dropped the brackets to 87 with 79 full brackets. So, do you want to be the state champ of a 4 man or 8 man bracket? Why do you care if it is a published bracket or a floating one? Are we here to wrestle or win a PRE-DETERMINED weight class.

- Team Scores. Have we turned into soccer moms or a Socialist country. Funny that every team that has hosted the Youth State Tourney also had the most kids ever on their team that year. It couldn't be they were trying to win, nah too obvious. The kids do get a charge out of winning team titles. If not, why are some proposing dual tournaments. Isn't scorekeeping going to take place?

-Bylaws. Last time I checked there was a Bylaw prohibiting rule changes from taking place in the same year. This means even if the team score rule is voted down it cannot take place until the following season. I mean, unless there was an Obamaesque executive order abolishing that bylaw.

-This is a developmental league. That means getting as many kids involved as possible. NKY teams have done an exceptional job of this. Opinion....competition has definitely contributed to 4 of the largest teams in the state all being from the same region. Look what's it done. 8 Middle School finalist from Raider Youth this year and without counting a great deal more from NKY also.

-Numbers. Every sport is a numbers game. The more bodies, the more competition, the better the athletes become. This is undeniable. The smaller teams need to be asking the larger teams how to make it happen. It's easy to grow your program if you are willing to put in the time and do basic recruiting at peewee football, baseball, soccer and mainly in your school.

Success breeds success. When our kids started wearing State Championship shirts around school the other kids came out of the woodwork to join. Having a successful program is the best recruiting tool. ASK JEFF JORDAN.

Last. How about some team scoring suggestions. We floated the idea of small school and big school scores, set number of scorers or leave it alone altogether. I don't believe that getting rid of keeping scores is the right direction.

For me wrestling was intersting for me because of the individuality of it. No one could be blamed for my loss but me. And no one but me could get the credit for the win. I had played many "Team" sports in my youth but wrestling is what stuck becuase of me being able to win without anyone else getting the credit or passing the blame of to someone else.

I've said this several times. Wrestling is an individual sport or at best a group sport. It is NOT a team sport even though many are trying to make it one. I would much rather win a state title myself than get a team title. I never did either but I got more out of my 4th place finishes than the 2nd place finish the team accomplished when I wrestled.

This is what wrestling is about. Showing an individual that through hard work you can accomplish things and be proud of what you accomplished. Being part of a team does not give you that personal pride in yourself. Now don't get me wrong I know that being part of a team is important, and kids will get that with every other sport they play. I believe that wrestling has made me a better person because of my belief in myself and what I can accomplish alone. But I understand with some help I can even do greater things, but can always fall back on getting it done myself, and I never blame others for my failures. These are the things we teach our kids with wrestling let baseball, basketball, and football give them the team skills, but allow wrestling to give them their individual pride in accomplishing something on their own.

Where are the minutes from the meeting where this was voted on?

Couldn't agree more with the individual part on a personal level. But, the kids I've coached in Youth and then Middle tell me they like Middle School Wrestling better because they feel like they are part of a team. The only time youth kids get this is at Regions and State. Take away team scoring and we take away the "Team" aspect which is important also.

per the email sent out about the youth meeting in May....

The following are the notes from the Youth Coaches Spring Meeting at Campbell County Middle School on Sunday May 20^th.

· We looked at and discussed the financial report from the state tournament. I have attached a copy of it for you. Next year’s costs from the Horse Park has not been determined. We hope to continue gain a financial advantage as we follow the KHSAA Tournament.

· Discussed the hosting of the state tournament and it was decided that the Northern Kentucky Region would be the host region. Campbell County has volunteered to be the lead team for the region.

· We discussed the weigh in issue for the state tournament. Some coaches have expressed a concern with actual weight at the tournament. It was decided that we would continue with what we are currently doing with satellite weigh ins but we will use a state form that must be signed by a wrestling official no more than 10 days prior to the state tournament.

· Discussed team score and it was decided that we would not keep a team score this next year.

· Discussed using an awards vendor to simplify the reordering of awards each year. We decided that we would use Crown Trophy for the next 5 years.

· We discussed the responsibility of coaches to ensure we are checking our wrestlers for skin and nails before competitions.

If you are hosting a youth tournament this summer or next season please send me the dates and I will get them distributed.

Are you serious raider? I did actually smile at Matt's comment, but I believe your responses pretty well prove this change hurts you and your ego more than anyone else. Since you obviously have a greater understanding of my psychological shortcomings, please explain my deep hatred for the Raiders. It can't be the high school as I have taken a ton of heat over the years for having too many Ryle parent friends. And at the middle school level I get along with Coach Ruschell and we have been more than competitive with them in my time at the middle school. So it has to be my obsession with youth wrestling. Glad I could finally make it to a meeting this spring. Oh, and the dual meet. Just stated facts to respond to your accusation that everyone is either afraid or envious of the Raider program. Pretty happy with our 4 MS Champs who live and have grown up in our school system.

And for the record, I generally don't have an issue with Ryle middle school kids wrestling with your team. I don't like to see kids who have moved on to other programs (with youth teams) compete with you.

Are you serious raider? I did actually smile at Matt's comment, but I believe your responses pretty well prove this change hurts you and your ego more than anyone else. Since you obviously have a greater understanding of my psychological shortcomings, please explain my deep hatred for the Raiders. It can't be the high school as I have taken a ton of heat over the years for having too many Ryle parent friends. And at the middle school level I get along with Coach Ruschell and we have been more than competitive with them in my time at the middle school. So it has to be my obsession with youth wrestling. Glad I could finally make it to a meeting this spring. Oh, and the dual meet. Just stated facts to respond to your accusation that everyone is either afraid or envious of the Raider program. Pretty happy with our 4 MS Champs who live and have grown up in our school system.

And for the record, I generally don't have an issue with Ryle middle school kids wrestling with your team. I don't like to see kids who have moved on to other programs (with youth teams) compete with you.

Ranger,

I was just kidding about your hatred for the Raiders. I was trying to add some humor into this heated debate. I apologize if I came off too harsh or offended you. I assure you my ego is not affected by a youth wrestling team's performance. I am just trying to stir the pot regarding something that I feel very passionately about. I am surprised that you and GOO who are more affiliated with middle and high school at this point are equally as passionate against team scores at youth. I expected to be debating with other people to be quite frank with you, but they aren't showing up on here.

No offense, but I don't believe anyone, including yourself, has presented a compelling argument to remove the team scores on this board. All I've heard is the scoring is too complicated (not true) and takes to long (not true). The scoring not being fair to smaller teams is valid. I would support a large school and small school. It would be much better than nothing at all.

I don't know what kids you are referring to, other than the kids that have moved to WV. Those kids started with Raiders and wanted to finish with Raiders. As a CC coach, you should just be grateful that Raiders kids are feeding into 2 middle schools now and not one! (Again...just playing with you)

^{Got it. I am actually not all that passionate about this issue. I have my opinion and expressed it both at the meeting and here. Not a big fan of small school big school. But as I have said let's create age/weight brackets and score away.}

One other tidbit of information regarding the competitiveness among the teams. At the end of the tournament last year, there were around 10 Head Coaches hovering around the team scores waiting to see what the results were. I'm aware not every coach was there, but these were coaches from mostly the "top scoring/bigger" teams. They're all great coaches who are very passionate about the sport. Each of them were eager to get the final results. If the team scores don't mean anything, why the interest from arguably the most influencial people in KY Youth wrestling? Why not just pack up and get out of there as quickly as you can?

My point is, whether they admit it or not, all coaches want to see how their team stacks against others...as they should. And as mentioned before, there has to be a way to evaluate your progress as individuals (tournaments), coaches (#'s, retainment, team results), and our state (#'s, performance vs out of state). Someone made the comment, "w/out team scoring, it is just another tournament." I agree. And as a coach, I need to consider what is best for my team, partake in "just another KY tournament" or go elsewhere. Our program misses out on the best tournament in Cincinnati (Citywide) every year because of Regional and State conflicts. I'd hate to disrupt tradition, but that doesn't seem to be a concern of our Youth Association.

I’m sure our club would be willing to listen to a big school/small school set up as this was something we have wanted to do in the past. I know one of the main issues about this set up was that clubs may consider the possibility of having kids sit out of state just to achieve the small school/club championship status. I think we could all agree that this is bad for the sport, if we have teams that are attempting to get kids to sit out, just to help the chances of winning a small school title. Right? So, let’s consider this scenario: we take the number of teams competing at state and competitors, find an average and call that the cut-off for large school/small school. I think by setting it up this way it will help to prevent programs from turning kids away, because until the final number of teams and participants is averaged out no one will have an idea as to what the cut off number is going to be. If we set a pre-determined number of 30 kids as the cut-off, then the teams at 30-40 kids have a selfish reason to encourage an X number of kids to sit out.

I’m not sure how I feel about one set of weight classes for all the kids to compete by. As I’ve said before, there is a massive strength difference between an 80lb 11-12 year old when compared to a 80lb 7-8 year old kid. We need to have the big boys as excited about wrestling as our little 6 year old 40lb’ers. I think that since so many people have raised the issue in the past about the 8 man brackets, why not set them at 14-15 kids, leaving 1-2 spots open for any last minute changes that need to be made, to take them to 16 man brackets. I think if we were to consider that scenario, it could help to make the bracketing a little easier as well. We start at the lowest weight and take the first 14-15 kids, based on the 10% rule as well, bracket them together, regardless of region and facing teammates. Sure, attempts could be made within the brackets to separate kids in the first and second rounds if possible, but by doing it this way, I don’t see how anyone could accuse one club/region host of “fixing the brackets” to any sort of advantage for their club.

One point that the Raiders coaches have touched on and based upon the arguments made, I have to agree with, is that bringing home a team trophy is a great recruiting tool. As far as I’m concerned, that is what youth is, a chance to get these kids started young and to get them excited about this great sport. I know that all involved in this topic have a true love for the sport and the kids they coach. I’m not completely bull-headed, a strong good argument can change my opinion. I just want what is best for this great sport and I’m always willing to listen to other ideas.

Large school/small school.

This determination should be based on # of kids turned in to USA wrestling by a certain date. This would deter teams from not taking a full roster just to avoid being placed in the large school division.

^{Got it. I am actually not all that passionate about this issue. I have my opinion and expressed it both at the meeting and here. Not a big fan of small school big school. But as I have said let's create age/weight brackets and score away.}

Makes the most sense. Pretty sure ohio uses age/weight brackets. You end up with one ind. true champion in each age/weight and a true team champ and everyones happy. The old way made sense early on when KY was trying to grow the sport. Time to change.

I love the idea of big school/small school. To me, this is a no-brainer.

16 man brackets is a thought, but am I the only one that likes seeing more champions? It just seems to me the more kids w/ medals, the more chance we hook them (and their parents) into coming back. I know there are people that want the brackets to be more competitive, which I understand. However, if our focus is on increasing #'s and retaining kids, then more is better.

I don't think people realize how bad the brackets would be if we didn't make an effort to separate kids from the same school. They would be terrible. I recall 3 or 4 brackets last year that would have been 8 kids from one team. I also recall a 4 man bracket of S Oldham kids. Why would we want parents to drive to a tournament, in some cases spend the night, spend all the money, to have them wrestle the same kids in their room? Also, separating the Regions are an easy thing to do that (in my mind) should be done, for the same reason. In parts of KY they are wrestling the same kids every weekend. I'm sure they appreciate not doing that at state. So other than appeasing some people's paranoia, I don't see a benefit to pressing a sort button and printing w/out making sure the brackets make sense.

The process of sorting is simple. I will gladly outline the guidlines I used to the Association at the next meeting. We should probably agree on these guidelines and write them in the bylaws. I also think it is imperative we have the brackets completed and sent out to EVERY coach in the state a couple days prior. This gives the coaches the chance to review their roster to ensure it is accurate. Last year's SKY situation would have been avoided if this was done.

I also don't agree w/ only allowing one point scorer from each team per bracket. I know people will be outraged by this, but think about it logically. We are telling kids who worked their butts off all year that their 3rd place means nothing because they were put in a bracket w/ a teammate who won it or took 2nd. Once again, if you're only concerned with the results and not the lessons we're trying to teach, then this won't make any sense to you. But we teach our kids to fight for team points, even when they had a loss. Team Championships can be won in the consolation rounds and we're trying to prepare our guys at a young age to wrestle back hard. I noticed many brackets where there were two placewinners from the same school. In my opinion, give them both their points.

Makes the most sense. Pretty sure ohio uses age/weight brackets. You end up with one ind. true champion in each age/weight and a true team champ and everyones happy. The old way made sense early on when KY was trying to grow the sport. Time to change.

Pin, I agree we'll ultimately need to change, but we're nowhere near there yet. Cincinnati has more kids attend their larger city tournaments than we do at our State tournament.

I don't think people realize how bad the brackets would be if we didn't make an effort to separate kids from the same school. They would be terrible. I recall 3 or 4 brackets last year that would have been 8 kids from one team. I also recall a 4 man bracket of S Oldham kids. Why would we want parents to drive to a tournament, in some cases spend the night, spend all the money, to have them wrestle the same kids in their room? Also, separating the Regions are an easy thing to do that (in my mind) should be done, for the same reason. In parts of KY they are wrestling the same kids every weekend. I'm sure they appreciate not doing that at state. So other than appeasing some people's paranoia, I don't see a benefit to pressing a sort button and printing w/out making sure the brackets make sense.

I'm still trying to figure this site out. Mlee if we are trying to keep kids from wrestling the same region then my boys must be unlucky. In the 5 matches from state last year they wrestled 3 kids from our region and of the 3 two of the boys where from our club.

I'm still trying to figure this site out. Mlee if we are trying to keep kids from wrestling the same region then my boys must be unlucky. In the 5 matches from state last year they wrestled 3 kids from our region and of the 3 two of the boys where from our club.

Chris,

I did say "make an effort." Do you realize last year we had an absolute cluster of a situation w/ the brackets? As mentioned before, I was not in charge of the brackets. I only offered to fix them. I had one night to go through well over 100 brackets. Next time, I'll gladly volunteer you.

Also, when did they wrestle each other? If they faced each other in the finals or consolations, that is very common. Many kids have to deal with that.

Second round and finals. It doesn't bother me that we have to wrestle our club. I like the idea of 14 in a bracket where they land they land, its all based on weight. Try to keep clubs on the different side of the brackets that's fine. If you do it this way no one can complain.

Second round and finals. It doesn't bother me that we have to wrestle our club. I like the idea of 14 in a bracket where they land they land, its all based on weight. Try to keep clubs on the different side of the brackets that's fine. If you do it this way no one can complain.

People will always complain.

Large school/small school.

This determination should be based on # of kids turned in to USA wrestling by a certain date. This would deter teams from not taking a full roster just to avoid being placed in the large school division.

Again, the only fear I have about doing it this way is that it will encourage coaches to hold kids back to keep their numbers in line with small club guidlines. If it is done at state based on the average of kids that are signed up for state, I can't see how any of games can be played. We had several kids that had their USA Wrestling cards, but due to vacations, injuries and lack of money to travel, I think our club had about 25 kids at state. So, if we used the number of kids on our roster from a USA wrestling card standpoint, it would have been 25+ that didn't even make the trip. I'm sorry, but you can't hold that against the kids that make the trip down to wrestle at State.

Again, the only fear I have about doing it this way is that it will encourage coaches to hold kids back to keep their numbers in line with small club guidlines. If it is done at state based on the average of kids that are signed up for state, I can't see how any of games can be played. We had several kids that had their USA Wrestling cards, but due to vacations, injuries and lack of money to travel, I think our club had about 25 kids at state. So, if we used the number of kids on our roster from a USA wrestling card standpoint, it would have been 25+ that didn't even make the trip. I'm sorry, but you can't hold that against the kids that make the trip down to wrestle at State.

This makes a whole lot of sense to me. It still encourages teams with higher numbers to keep growing and inserts some fairness into the team scoring.

The only thing I like about using the numbers at the beginning of the season is it rewards teams who are able to retain their athletes AND get them to participate at state. I think coaches could use this as motivation to the kids and parents to honor their commitment to their team by not quitting or not showing up at state. Lets face it, the team scoring is just as much a reflection of the coaches as it is the kids. As coaches, we need to up our game and be held accountable too. Having said that, any team scoring system is better than none.

This is still amusing to say the least and to have so much attention being put to youth wrestling in June...is awesome! Keep talking it up and growing the sport. We only have 250 more high schools to start wrestling in KY to catch up with Ohio.

Here is a compromise...how about use the Regional rosters? Coaches have to submit their Regional roster to the State host team anyways to ensure the kids are qualified. By that point, all the "quitters" are gone. Also, there still is that incentive for coaches to get their whole team to go to State. Last year we had over 10 kids wrestle at Regionals that did not attend State...drove me nuts!

This is still amusing to say the least and to have so much attention being put to youth wrestling in June...is awesome! Keep talking it up and growing the sport. We only have 250 more high schools to start wrestling in KY to catch up with Ohio.

We would need Lake Erie to flood half the state in order for that to happen.

This makes a whole lot of sense to me. It still encourages teams with higher numbers to keep growing and inserts some fairness into the team scoring.

The only thing I like about using the numbers at the beginning of the season is it rewards teams who are able to retain their athletes AND get them to participate at state. I think coaches could use this as motivation to the kids and parents to honor their commitment to their team by not quitting or not showing up at state. Lets face it, the team scoring is just as much a reflection of the coaches as it is the kids. As coaches, we need to up our game and be held accountable too. Having said that, any team scoring system is better than none.

You raise a very good point as well about retaining kids for the entire year. But the times have changed. What I mean is when we were kids, when we started anything, our parents made us honor that commitment. But as much as I hate to say it, that is not the case anymore. We had several kids come out for our team this year that did not wrestle in any tourneys but loved the workouts and the chance to be with their friends at practice. Perfect example, we have a kid on our team that has wrestled in practice with us for 3 years, but the idea of competition to this 8 year old makes him sick to his stomach. I know it is related to sports anxiety and we as coaches have tried several different techniques to try to rid him of this. I hate to turn the kid away because he is a very good wrestler, works out very hard but simply doesn’t want to compete. I’m sure age is a factor as well as maturity. I’m happy this kid has stayed with the sport because I believe he could be very good once he builds up his confidence. I know with our program, we make each kid pay for entry into each tourney we attend. So, we have left the decision making up to the parents/kids. We do not mandate that if a kid is on our youth team he must compete each and every weekend weekend. As a coach, if I have 20 kids on the team, but only ½ that number want to compete, I’m ok with that. Even more so when we enter the next year and the 10 that didn’t want to compete return to the sport and our program to continue building their wrestling knowledge base. When my son entered into wrestling at 6 years old we had him attend several practices, but only allowed him to wrestle in one tourney. For us, it was the best decision we ever made. Because when the next year came up, not only did he want to wrestle in every practice but wanted to go to every tourney he could. Now I know some that would say, why didn’t you make him wrestle more in his first year? The decision we made for him, made him hungry for more competition, and also helped him to understand that to get anything out of it that he had to give it his all.

Here is a compromise...how about use the Regional rosters? Coaches have to submit their Regional roster to the State host team anyways to ensure the kids are qualified. By that point, all the "quitters" are gone. Also, there still is that incentive for coaches to get their whole team to go to State. Last year we had over 10 kids wrestle at Regionals that did not attend State...drove me nuts!

I'd be good with that. I had 2-3 kids that attended regionals that did not go to state. I agree it is crazy, but I'll take it. There could be many reasons why a parent wants them to compete locally but not at the state level.

We would need Lake Erie to flood half the state in order for that to happen.

If that were the case, we would then just switch gears and become the water polo Champions Of The Wooorrrrlllllld!

Why not choose a peak number of scorers for each team, let's say you only score the top 30 kids from each club. That would give a smaller club more of an oppurtunity to compete with the larger ones, a perfect score would be if a team had 30 champions, in the case of a tie move on to the next highest placers for those teams until you reach a difference (32nd placer for team A 3rd place, 32nd placer for team B 2nd place, team B wins). This way a team with 40 kids would have a better chance against a team with 80 kids. We all know there is no perfect answer and we will never be able to satisfy everyone. Also, on another note, another way to attract parents/kids to a program is to be great role models (who we want our kids to learn fom and emulate is more important than any trophy), we should probably take a look at some of our own behavior and think before we post, no need for throwing dirt and name calling (I love the passion tho) when its obvious that everyone is really interested in the common good of growing the sport in KY.

Why not choose a peak number of scorers for each team, let's say you only score the top 30 kids from each club. That would give a smaller club more of an oppurtunity to compete with the larger ones, a perfect score would be if a team had 30 champions, in the case of a tie move on to the next highest placers for those teams until you reach a difference (32nd placer for team A 3rd place, 32nd placer for team B 2nd place, team B wins). This way a team with 40 kids would have a better chance against a team with 80 kids. We all know there is no perfect answer and we will never be able to satisfy everyone. Also, on another note, another way to attract parents/kids to a program is to be great role models (who we want our kids to learn fom and emulate is more important than any trophy), we should probably take a look at some of our own behavior and think before we post, no need for throwing dirt and name calling (I love the passion tho) when its obvious that everyone is really interested in the common good of growing the sport in KY.

That was another suggestion that has been brought up in the past. I like it too. If that was the format, we would have to allow all participant's team points be included in my opinion.

I think the best compromise is having some type of team scoring at the State Tournament and have State Duals. I have already begun the process of getting State Duals back. We have a really nice facility that is willing to work with us on a date. We've used it for our off-season training and a camp we had this week. I believe it is an ideal place for a great event. Maybe we can have the proceeds go towards helping new clubs? Just a thought. I'm going to start a new topic in hopes to get some good feedback.

As far as the name calling, I agree. I'm all for a heated debate, but it seems a bit trivial to resort to that.

^{Got it. I am actually not all that passionate about this issue. I have my opinion and expressed it both at the meeting and here. Not a big fan of small school big school. But as I have said let's create age/weight brackets and score away.}

You do realize that having rigid/set age/weight brackets some brackets could have over 64 kids? Pretty dificult to wrestle a 64 man bracket in 3 hours.

Not to beat a dead horse, but.

wouldn't it be easier to look at one or two brackets that you would need to break up more than to have a whole tournament that you have to look at and seperate. Just make the maximum number of kids in a bracket. You can then look to break it down into more age groups.

Example: If you have a wt. class 4-6, 55 lbs. Ther are 40 kids in the bracket. Make a 4 year old bracket, a 5 year old bracket and a 6 year old bracket. Or whatever you need to do to break up those extrememly large brackets. I'm definately not the smartest one on here but it seems easier to just have to "work out" a couple of brackets, than having to "work out" the whole tourney.

Don't ger me wrong I'm still not a fan of scoring, but I'm not gonna win that arguement on this site. So I'll move on and try to work with what the majority believes and try to improve on that.

Yes I mostly enjoy the high school kids, but the youth kids become high school kids at some point so I have an interest in all levels.

And my selfish reason is that some day I hope to have Grand-Goo's who wrestle and I want the set up to be the best it can be when they start.

Not to beat a dead horse, but.

wouldn't it be easier to look at one or two brackets that you would need to break up more than to have a whole tournament that you have to look at and seperate. Just make the maximum number of kids in a bracket. You can then look to break it down into more age groups.

Example: If you have a wt. class 4-6, 55 lbs. Ther are 40 kids in the bracket. Make a 4 year old bracket, a 5 year old bracket and a 6 year old bracket. Or whatever you need to do to break up those extrememly large brackets. I'm definately not the smartest one on here but it seems easier to just have to "work out" a couple of brackets, than having to "work out" the whole tourney.

Don't ger me wrong I'm still not a fan of scoring, but I'm not gonna win that arguement on this site. So I'll move on and try to work with what the majority believes and try to improve on that.

Yes I mostly enjoy the high school kids, but the youth kids become high school kids at some point so I have an interest in all levels.

And my selfish reason is that some day I hope to have Grand-Goo's who wrestle and I want the set up to be the best it can be when they start.

But then little goo wouldn't be the true state champ of 65lbs.

You do realize that having rigid/set age/weight brackets some brackets could have over 64 kids? Pretty dificult to wrestle a 64 man bracket in 3 hours.

Having never been to aKy youth £tate touney, I have to ask... why would you have to run a 64 man bracket in 3 hrs?is that all the time allowed or how does that work?

Having never been to aKy youth £tate touney, I have to ask... why would you have to run a 64 man bracket in 3 hrs?is that all the time allowed or how does that work?

We do 2 sessions for the Youth Tournament, each running about 3 hours long. Logistically, it works better to do multiple sessions for various reasons. For starters, asking a 5 or 6 year old to stay at a mat all day can be difficult. Also, if we had all 1000 kids and their families in the facility at once, it would be a zoo. Not sure it would be very enjoyable.

Never having attended a KY Youth tournmament, I dont understand how a team could have an advantage by having more wrestlers.

Isnt there a rule on the number of scorers by team, by weight class, by age group?

Never having attended a KY Youth tournmament, I dont understand how a team could have an advantage by having more wrestlers.

Isnt there a rule on the number of scorers by team, by weight class, by age group?

No. To this point it has just been the top scorer in each bracket accumulates points for their team.

Never having attended a KY Youth tournmament, I dont understand how a team could have an advantage by having more wrestlers.

Isnt there a rule on the number of scorers by team, by weight class, by age group?

Not really. The only rule is that only one wrestler's team points count per weight class. Hence, you could have 3 placers in one bracket from one team and only the highest placer counts. That does offset some of the advantage that larger teams have, but realistically the more kids you bring the more potential points you can earn.

I am with Goo. Age groups, Weight classes, weigh ins and make the few necessary adjustments if there is truly a 64 man bracket, but I don't think that would be the case very often.

But seems many here are more against weighing in.

Yeah, weighing in has historically been a disaster. I have concerns about the accuracy of kids' weight, but wouldn't say same day weigh ins are the answer.

I am with Goo. Age groups, Weight classes, weigh ins and make the few necessary adjustments if there is truly a 64 man bracket, but I don't think that would be the case very often.

But seems many here are more against weighing in.

It would be more than a few adjustments. There would be multiple weight classes of 20+. In these situtations, how do you separate? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having "true" state champions? Is anyone concerned about posting weight classes at the beginning of the season and having youth kids try to maintain a certain weight class for an entire season?

Any youth coach worth anything would make it clear his kids should not be cutting weight to maintain a weight class. But I am not naive enough to think that some coaches will not push kids to make certain weights to fill holes in their squad. That doesn't mean the system is wrong, just that we have coaches more focused on winning than on the kids.

Any youth coach worth anything would make it clear his kids should not be cutting weight to maintain a weight class. But I am not naive enough to think that some coaches will not push kids to make certain weights to fill holes in their squad. That doesn't mean the system is wrong, just that we have coaches more focused on winning than on the kids.

I agree, but doesn't the 10% rule eliminate this from being an issue? Shouldn't the rules and bylaws focus on the safety of the kids first? You said it yourself, there will be some coaches that will push kids to make a weight class. There will also be some parents that will push their kids to weight cut (I've seen it firsthand). Also, don't underestimate an over-zealous kid keeping his weight down on his own.

If we posted the youth weight classes at the beginning of the year, there would be weight cutting going on throughout our state. We could not stop it. And before people use other states as an example, remember the 10% rule is relatively new. A lot of the major states who've had youth wrestling for a lot longer than KY are moving towards it.

Once again don't keep score and those coaches will not force their kids to go down a wt. class or try and fill a wt. class.

Definitely doesn't eliminate it. I have seen kids not eat and work to lose weight just to keep their weight down under the 10% rule.

I would have to see a major state using the 10% rule for post season competition before I would believe it.

I agree, the only place anyone ever wants to point to is the Cincinnatti youth league as their justification for the 10% rule, which makes me laugh every time that our state wants to be the kid sister of a city league. There is not a major wrestling state using the 10% rule for their state tournaments, there is not a major national tournament that uses the 10% rule for their tournament.

I have heard we use the 10% rule to continue to grow wrestling, but if you have over 1000 kids going to the tournament.....you have probably grown pretty well - that no longer holds weight.

I agree JW. I think we those who have organized the state association and events the last few years have done a fantastic job on the growth side. We have probably more than doubled (or more) the size of this tournament in the last 5 years. I personally feel like we are ready to take the next step and run our event the way the "major" states do it. In order to do that we have to be efficient, hence my support of eliminating current team scores so resources can be used elsewhere (and personally I don't see the title as meaning much).

Definitely doesn't eliminate it. I have seen kids not eat and work to lose weight just to keep their weight down under the 10% rule.

I would have to see a major state using the 10% rule for post season competition before I would believe it.

There is absolutely no reason or incentive to lose weight w/ the 10% rule. The next time you see a kid lose weight under the 10% rule, explain to him that by losing weight he might end up being the lightest kid in his weight class and by gaining weight, he might end up being the heaviest. You just cannot predict.

Define post season? Cincinnati uses the 10% rule for their "year end" City Wide Tournament. Many youth tournaments around the country don't set the weight classes until weigh ins.

I understand you can't predict it. But no one is ever going to take the approach of gaining weight and hoping to be the heaviest. And when you weigh in lighter you will most likely end up in a bracket with lighter kids. Especially if you are in that range with tons of kids.

City wide is just another event to most of OH. Their state tournaments (Ourway and OAC) use set weight classes. Gotta give some specific examples of the big events using the 10% rule. Not claiming it doesn't happen, I just haven't been to those events.

I for one think the 10% rule has been great for youth wrestling in KY. I remember some of the earlier state events with the small brackets (3-4 kids total) and an event that lasted all day between both sessions. Now it seems the majority of the brackets are full. I guess the question is are the numbers up enough to justify a change? We can debate it for years, but the proof is in the numbers. The other major plus I see with the 10% rule is without set weight classes, how do kids know that cutting weight is going to give them any type of competitive advantage. They don’t and that’s the point.

As of now, we still are only wrestling brackets of 8, so that being said, are we going to crown 5 different state champs for a 9-10 year 65lb class? That seems crazy. I for one, would not mind larger brackets. I know the idea to award several state champs is an entirely different issue, but if we awarded out to 6 and or 8 places based on a 16 man bracket, we are still accomplishing the goal of awarding kids for their hard work and awarding hardware as incentive for them to come back to the sport the following year and we are getting closer to awarding 1 overall champion.

The only major issue I have with the 10% rule is that it allows for way too much shuffling within the brackets. I’d like to see us keep the weights as close together as possible. I don’t care if my wrestlers have to face kids from the same region and or team if it is to determine a true state champ. I don’t mind taking efforts to try to separate kids within the bracket due to region and or teammates competing. If it is done this way, it is completely transparent.

Lets keep working on it, I know we can get it right. Most of us are former wrestlers ourselves, so I know we don't have any quit in us....

I understand you can't predict it. But no one is ever going to take the approach of gaining weight and hoping to be the heaviest. And when you weigh in lighter you will most likely end up in a bracket with lighter kids. Especially if you are in that range with tons of kids.

City wide is just another event to most of OH. Their state tournaments (Ourway and OAC) use set weight classes. Gotta give some specific examples of the big events using the 10% rule. Not claiming it doesn't happen, I just haven't been to those events.

Ranger, are you trying to say the 10% rule does not help prevent weight cutting?

"Gotta give some specific examples of the big events using the 10% rule."

Army Midwest Nationals

Ranger, are you trying to say the 10% rule does not help prevent weight cutting?

Honestly, I would say you have more weight cutting with the 10% then you would with having weight classes. You have many kids (or more so parents) wanting to get their kid to the lowest weight possible, knowing full well that they have plenty of time to add that weight back in the next 7-10 before the state tournament. Nothing like weight inn at 65lbs on weight in day, and being 75 or more at state tournament.

Honestly, I would say you have more weight cutting with the 10% then you would with having weight classes. You have many kids (or more so parents) wanting to get their kid to the lowest weight possible, knowing full well that they have plenty of time to add that weight back in the next 7-10 before the state tournament. Nothing like weight inn at 65lbs on weight in day, and being 75 or more at state tournament.

Plantman, with all due respect, you are completely wrong. I particpated in Cincinnati tournaments as a kid well before the 10% rule. I recall seeing "kids" in plastics and spitting in cups prior to tournaments. You don't see that activity anymore. But don't take my word for it, ask the officials of CYW and other organizations around the country that have adopted it. They'll tell you the same.

Look at the logic behind dropping weight for a 10% rule tournament. Say Johnny weighs 70 lbs naturally. Crazy dad/coach tells little Johnny he needs to drop 3 lbs for the tournament. He now weighs 67. Random draw puts Johnny in bracket 67-72 lbs.

Now let's contrast that with set weight classes. Weight classes are set 65, 67, 70, 73... Little Johnny now drops to 67 to get to a bracket full of 70 lbers that dropped to 67!

MLEE, yes I do believe it impacts weight cutting but does NOT eliminate it. As plantman says, kids/parents just shoot for the lowest possible weight assuming they will at least have a size advantage. Because recall, at this point they get to weigh in for a regional event that will be at least a couple weeks earlier and performance at this event doesn't really matter (not a qualifier) so the impact of weight loss is irrelevant (to them).

Army Midwest Nationals is a decent event. Anything else?

MLEE, yes I do believe it impacts weight cutting but does NOT eliminate it. As plantman says, kids/parents just shoot for the lowest possible weight assuming they will at least have a size advantage. Because recall, at this point they get to weigh in for a regional event that will be at least a couple weeks earlier and performance at this event doesn't really matter (not a qualifier) so the impact of weight loss is irrelevant (to them).

Army Midwest Nationals is a decent event. Anything else?

Well, I guess you're correct...you cannot eliminate stupid. If coaches/parents want their kids to drop weight for the sake of dropping weight although there is CLEAR evidence it doesn't help, go right ahead. You can create all the hypotheticals you'd like, but w/ set weight classes, dropping weight is common. W/out, it is ALMOST eliminated.

That is my point. You can't eliminate stupid. And is the logic much different with weight classes? Dropping weight to run from competition that you may not escape.

That is my point. You can't eliminate stupid. And is the logic much different with weight classes? Dropping weight to run from competition that you may not escape.

Ranger, you seem to dismiss the obvious point in this debate: the results. With the 10% rule, weight cutting has been "almost" eliminated. With set weight classes, almost all kids drop a few lbs. That is a fact that cannot be disputed. You can try (which I bet you will) but you'd be wrong.

I wrestled in pre-10% rule, Cincinnati youth tournaments as a kid...cutting weight was rampant. Almost every wrestler on our team did it. Almost every kid on the opposing teams did it. It was the norm.

Fast forward 20+ years. I coach a youth team of over 100 kids and I have not seen 1 kid attempt to lose weight...not 1.

You can't attribute the change in weight loss solely to the 10% rule. Weight loss is viewed differently throughout wrestling and coaches are generally more informed.

Let me ask this. If the 10% rule is the silver bullet to all of our weight loss woes, then why don't we just adopt it at all levels?

You can't attribute the change in weight loss solely to the 10% rule. Weight loss is viewed differently throughout wrestling and coaches are generally more informed.

Let me ask this. If the 10% rule is the silver bullet to all of our weight loss woes, then why don't we just adopt it at all levels?

What would you attribute it to then? The 10% rule was created by more informed coaches and ambassadors of the sport. The idea didn't just drop out of the sky.

The higher levels are organized enough to implement hydration tests and weight management programs to monitor. The youth cannot decide on team scores or not.

If as you say we can't decide to be organized at the youth level then we shouldn't be worried about growth, because it will not be maintained if the organization is failing. I personally think the organization has done well. And growth has occurred. I just think we are ready to move forward.

Matt, in my opinion, it is very simple. Coaches are the key. We can create any rules, regulations, or hoops to jump through, but we as coaches are the driving force in the weight a kid wrestles. Well, I take that back. When we operate the way most of the wrestling world works, coaches control weight classes. Under the 10% rule, the kids/parents have more control over it.

The 10 % rule is a joke anyways once you have kids that are over about 90lbs. You end up wrestling kids that are heavier than what you would if you had defined weight classes. Never been a fan of the 10% rule and would be happy to get rid of it.

If as you say we can't decide to be organized at the youth level then we shouldn't be worried about growth, because it will not be maintained if the organization is failing. I personally think the organization has done well. And growth has occurred. I just think we are ready to move forward.

Ha, I agree it has done well. That is precisely why I didn't understand the big push to change it.

I grew up wrestling in a WV, PA, Ohio circuit. Have traveled up and down the east coast with my kids wrestling in tournaments where everyone used weight classes....not just at states but at every single tournament we went to. International, College, High School and MS use weight classes. The only thing that Kentucky advocates of the 10% rule can point to is the Cincinnatti Youth League as their primary argument.

Fully believe that this state is ready to go to the next level and have weigh ins, and weight classes. My first experience with a Kentucky tournament was a kid 15 pounds heavier than the 10% variance because people lie and hope to not get caught.

If you really care about the kids........make it as fair as possible for them with weight classes and weigh-ins. Instead of saying as a tournament director it is just too hard and time consuming to make it fair for them. The only reason you choose to do weigh-ins 5 days earlier is to make life easier on the adult running the tournament...not the fairness of the kid. From 55 pounds on the 10% is outside of what the weight classes would be for USA wrestling at the youth ages - thats more of a disadvantage for the kid, but saved the director time.

Here is my take for those of you opposed to the 10% rule. When I wrestled in college, there were 4 wrestlers (I believe 3 from college and 1 from high school) that DIED from cutting weight. At the same time, there was a huge fight building and continues from many in the wrestling world to keep our college teams alive. I spoke with a few people who were very involved with this fight that admitted the deaths of those four kids drastically hurt in many cases where colleges were on the fence about keeping or dropping a program. Our sport just cannot take that kind of poor publicity. If you think our state struggles to keep up with some of our neighbors now, wait until an 8 year kid from Frankfort dies from weight cutting. While that is very dramatic I must admit, it is a potential risk with weight cutting. Especially since, as Coach Lee pointed out, we just aren't organized enough yet at the youth level to apply the regulations such as hydration and body fat tests.

For those of you who believe the 10% doesn't significantly reduce weight cutting vs weight classes, you are out of your mind. Cutting weight was a huge part of the culture in youth wrestling when I grew up. Every youth tournament I attended (almost all were in Ohio), there was rampant weight cutting going on. It was out in the open and accepted by everyone. However, I agree with Ranger that the 10% rule isn't the only thing to reduce weight cutting. We are WAY more educated today about nutrition then we were then.

I help coach the largest youth team in the state and I know of only one instance where a kid was cutting weight. This kid wrestled youth for 3 years, and cutting weight never crossed neither his nor his parents' minds while under the 10% rule. However, during his 4th season, he began wrestling both middle and youth and guess what.....he started cutting weight. Hmmmmm, I wonder why that was? I spoke with the father and attempted to educate as much as possible, but he continued to do it for the sole purpose of making a starting spot at a specific weight class for the middle school. There is overwhelming evidence to support that the 10% removes the culture of weight cutting from wrestling. You can either accept the facts or bury your head in the sand.

I know this message board becomes a vortex of negativity and arguing for some reason. I will admit that I am like a moth to the flame when it comes to a good argument that I'm passionate about. However, if there is anything that we should all rally around it is the safety of our kids. That should trump all of the other nit picking that goes on on this site. For those of you that need evidence that other states or big tournaments use 10% rule, I would ask...why? If we have evidence to support that it reduces the risk of weight cutting, (some argue it eliminates, but most agree it drastically reduces) then why do we need validation from Ohio or Pennsylvania? If it is the right thing to do, lets do it and move on.

The other major benefit of the 10% rule is, it allows kids to wrestle different kids all year long. If you have set weight classes, chances are the kids are going to wrestle the same kids over and over and over at every tournament. With 10%, the competition changes significantly every week which is a good thing. Just another thought to consider.

A kid in HS football has died in the state of KY each of the last 4 seasons due to some issue. Participation in HS football is at one of its highest points ever in KY. Your correlation between death of participants and impact on sport doesn't necessarily hold water.

Well it is official, people who have been involved in wrestling as the governing body of USA wrestling and AAU wrestling, have oversight of wrestling all over the country and have came up with weight classes know nothing about this sport. They should fold up those organizations and fall under the Kentucky 10% rule nationwide.

The Ohio TOC will just let you email your weights in this year with your coaches signature on a spreadsheet, because that is a trustworthy way of doing business.

Same with the Asics Nationals, Brute Nationals.....wait hold on, nevermind - they will still run their tournaments with weight classes and weigh-ins.

A kid in HS football has died in the state of KY each of the last 4 seasons due to some issue. Participation in HS football is at one of its highest points ever in KY. Your correlation between death of participants and impact on sport doesn't necessarily hold water.

Football and Wrestling = Apples and Oranges

You are comparing by FAR the most popular sport in our country vs one that is dying rapidly at the college level. If you don't believe what I stated as fact, you can talk to our head coach and the team of attorneys who represented us from Chicago (all former wrestlers) as we fought to keep our team from being dropped.

Football and wrestling are tough to compare, but that is as applicable as the impact of weight on programs being dropped.

Well it is official, people who have been involved in wrestling as the governing body of USA wrestling and AAU wrestling, have oversight of wrestling all over the country and have came up with weight classes know nothing about this sport. They should fold up those organizations and fall under the Kentucky 10% rule nationwide.

The Ohio TOC will just let you email your weights in this year with your coaches signature on a spreadsheet, because that is a trustworthy way of doing business.

Same with the Asics Nationals, Brute Nationals.....wait hold on, nevermind - they will still run their tournaments with weight classes and weigh-ins.

I never said they know nothing about the sport. I just don't think they care enough to stop weight cutting at the youth level. They have an ESTABLISHED product, we are trying to build something and build it the right way. Obviously many smart people in our sport have concerns about weight cutting, hence the fat and hydration tests being implemented. If they do it in high school and college to protect the wrestlers, why don't we do it at youth? Those other states don't do it at youth because of the same reasons we won't...organization and leadership.

Furthermore, I hope you aren't looking at those organizations you listed as the beacon of sports marketing. I think it is safe to say that our sport has swung and missed at marketing wrestling in this country and those organizations have been the ones at the plate. You have the hottest bed of athletes in this country (southeast) with basically no major collegiate participation in wrestling. Most of our states could care less about it at every level. Our sport is dying...but if you want to keep following a dying trend, go right ahead. After all, I have two daughters and no sons. With their lack of vision, by the time my girls go to college, there will only be womens wrestling.

Football and wrestling are tough to compare, but that is as applicable as the impact of weight on programs being dropped.

Ranger...now you are pissing me off. I know you...I know you didn't wrestle in college and I know for a FACT what I was told by people who accomplished more and know more about this sport than you ever will. My college team was dropped and the fact those four wrestlers died had an impact on that decision. I was there when it was discussed. You can believe it or not....I'm just inserting some facts from history that I have that you don't. You have a real issue with thinking you know EVERYTHING about wrestling. You need to get over this illusion that you are the Grand Poobah of Kentucky wrestling.

So again, you are saying the 10% rule is a prime solution to the marketing/participation/college problems wrestling has experienced the last few decades? Are you suggesting they implement it at the college level? Maybe we can get it in place before the Olympics kick off.

So again, you are saying the 10% rule is a prime solution to the marketing/participation/college problems wrestling has experienced the last few decades? Are you suggesting they implement it at the college level? Maybe we can get it in place before the Olympics kick off.

Don't twist my works Poobah. They implemented body fat and hydration tests while I was in school as a result of the kids dying. So they implemented change. You know as well as I do that we can't do that here at the youth level. Hence, the best alternative to prevent weight cutting is the 10% rule. That is my point.

What you are suggesting, is to ignore our sport's dark history of weight cuttting and go back to how it was with weight classes and NO fat/hydration tests at the youth level (assuming that is too big of a task for our association). I think that is a big step backwards. It re-inserts the culture of weight cutting at the youth level that I experienced as a youth in this area that we have been able to get rid of with the 10% rule.

Ranger, I envision you sitting in a small room arguing with the wall over the sky being blue. It is okay for you every now and then to accept someone else's point of view that might just know a thing or two about this sport. I'll try not to be insulting, but I know who you are and what you accomplished in this sport and sometimes I ask, "who is he to respond to these people that way". I appreciate your passion and knowledge, but no offense, you need to put your ego aside from time to time.

Ranger...now you are pissing me off. I know you...I know you didn't wrestle in college and I know for a FACT what I was told by people who accomplished more and know more about this sport than you ever will. My college team was dropped and the fact those four wrestlers died had an impact on that decision. I was there when it was discussed. You can believe it or not....I'm just inserting some facts from history that I have that you don't. You have a real issue with thinking you know EVERYTHING about wrestling. You need to get over this illusion that you are the Grand Poobah of Kentucky wrestling.

Okay, so I have accomplished at least one of my goals today. LOL. Never claimed to know everything or that I have all of the answers. Just sharing one man's opinion. No more, no less. But now that you have illustrated your superiority to us all maybe we should just all step aside and let you set the course for wrestling in our state. WOW! At least your bro has the humility and respect for others to realize that others may have valuable input as well. Whether they wrestled in college or not.

Unless it was a student at your school, if I were a betting man (I am) I'd say Title IX compliance had more to do with your program being dropped. Cutting was in the culture of our sport. Cultures change.

Sigh... even if you have the 10 precent rule, what's to say parents and kids aren't going to start cutting well before the season starts to come in as low as possible? If you know the rules is in place, then allyou have to do is start cutting in August. Wrestlers will always cut. Its a shame and I don't agree with it, but they do. To say you cut 20lbs and beat a naturally smaller guy doesn't impress me. Wrestle what you weigh.

Unless it was a student at your school, if I were a betting man (I am) I'd say Title IX compliance had more to do with your program being dropped. Cutting was in the culture of our sport. Cultures change.

Of course Title IX was the excuse our school used to cut our program. But, there are other factors involved when a school decides which sports to cut. Such as team success, local community support, alumni support, finances, etc. They just don't pick the teams they want to cut out of a hat. Did Title IX have more to do with my team being dropped than cutting weight? No doubt. However, those deaths and the bad press at that time had an impact according to the lawyers that spoke with us.

Also, the law firm that represented us were a group of former wrestlers who were fighting the fight at the college level. They represented other programs other than ours as well. Their words, not mine, was that the deaths were mentioned by the administrations of all the teams they represented. At the time, that was a big deal. I know that in almost all of those cases the deaths weren't the driving force that got those programs cut. I just mentioned it to to insert a little tidbit of history and experience that I lived.

Sigh... even if you have the 10 precent rule, what's to say parents and kids aren't going to start cutting well before the season starts to come in as low as possible? If you know the rules is in place, then allyou have to do is start cutting in August. Wrestlers will always cut. Its a shame and I don't agree with it, but they do. To say you cut 20lbs and beat a naturally smaller guy doesn't impress me. Wrestle what you weigh.

I suppose what you are suggesting could happen, but it doesn't happen today with youth, as far as I am aware. As been discussed in great detail, it doesn't make a lot of sense to cut weight with the 10% rule. Also, I don't think most people cut weight to have the advantage of wrestling against smaller people. Usually, weight cutting is done to fit into your team's line up. I'm sure there are a lot of examples otherwise, but most of what I witness with weight cutting are wrestlers who just want to find a starting spot on a team or to make room for someone else to make the team stronger. Of course with 10%, the weights are unknown and there aren't "starting" team spots, which I think promotes wrestling your own weight.

Okay, so I have accomplished at least one of my goals today. LOL. Never claimed to know everything or that I have all of the answers. Just sharing one man's opinion. No more, no less. But now that you have illustrated your superiority to us all maybe we should just all step aside and let you set the course for wrestling in our state. WOW! At least your bro has the humility and respect for others to realize that others may have valuable input as well. Whether they wrestled in college or not.

I find it transparent that you suggest that YOU need to step aside to allow me to set the course for wrestling in our state. At least you admitted that you think you are in charge. I'll give you some credit for finally coming out and admitting that.

Humility and respect for others aren't words that I would use to describe your know-it-all attitude towards anything anyone has to say on these boards you disagree with. I pulled my credentials on you because I firmly believe you need a reality check. If you want to be a leader and represent our state, you should cherish other people's experiences and support of our sport instead of acting as if no one else's opinion matters unless they agree with you. You routinely attack people's posts with sarcasm or ask for more evidence as if we have to go out of our way to support everything we say for your approval. I know most of the people on these boards have good intentions and while I disagree with some opinions, I wouldn't question their integrity or honesty.

Example: I provided you with a detailed account with my real life experience of my college team being dropped and how our attorneys suggested the deaths from weight cutting impacted the decisions by the administrations they dealt with. You responded with a typical sarcastic response claiming that those deaths had nothing to do with teams being dropped. You are either calling me a liar or don't have enough respect for other people to actually listen to someone's experience that are relevant to this topic.

Example: You implied with no evidence that our team used wrestlers from other schools at the state tournament. By doing so, you are essentially calling us cheaters. Either provide evidence or don't mention it at all. You know the coaches for our team; why not bring what evidence you have to us. Instead, you insert an unfounded accusation on the state message boards and then just never mention it again when I ask for evidence. Then I call you out about winning the high school title with a pair of mid-season recruits and you hide behind the "we can't talk about eligibility". It is okay for you to question our eligibility, but we can't question yours...typical Ranger.

Example: You asked for more evidence of national tournaments using 10% rule (again we can't just make a claim with you, we must support it with a ton of evidence that you will more and likely ignore anyway). Coach Lee gave an example of a big tournament that I think you and your team may be attending and you just dismiss it. I find it insulting that Coach Lee or many other very qualified wrestling minds of this state have to constantly provide you with evidence just to make a suggestion with how to run our sport. Once they go out of their way for that evidence, you just find a way to dismiss it because you have already made up your mind. I'd rather you just have the guts to say "I think I'm smarter than anyone associated with Kentucky wrestling and therefore I know best" than put on this act as if you listen to anyone from this state.

These are just a few posts from this topic alone that demonstrate your "humility and respect".

Glad to see you put that superior college wrestling education to use tonight and failed to read plain english. I clearly typed "we ... all", not me, not I.

As far as being in charge, the only thing I claim to have any "control" over regarding wrestling is my team (as head coach) and middle school wrestling (as President of the KSWA). The feedback I receive on a consistent basis, from those of any consequence, is overwhelmingly positive. And I regularly admit that most of my successes have a lot of good people who play important roles in that success (from state titles to rankings to running a state tournament).

Example 1: Go back and use those reading skills again. After you posted about your college experience, I never said those deaths had no impact on teams being dropped. I'm sure that gave those in the administration who probably already wanted to cut the team needed ammunition. I simply stated I cannot believe that was the PRIMARY issue.

Example 2: I can name a couple of wrestlers off the top of my head, but I refuse to throw any kids under a bus here. I know of a couple kids who practiced daily and competed the entire middle school season with another team and competed with your team at the last couple youth state tournaments. Yes, they have been part of your club in the past, but were obviously part of another team at the time they competed with you. If it is still a mystery to you, call your brother. There could be others, but this is not against any rules so no need to make a list. And again, if you will properly read my response on the high school issue, I invited you to have a thorough discussion about that anytime you would like.

Example 3: Yes, Coach Lee gave a second example. I believe others were providing the balanced side of established national events that use weight classes. Neither myself nor my team will be attending the US Army Nationals.

From what I can see, you are the only person who has an issue with me sharing my opinion and have to read each post as a commandment from Mount Olympus. Last time I checked no rules were ever changed or enforced based on someones post on this site. This is simply a bunch of wrestling fans sharing thoughts and opinions.

Glad to see you put that superior college wrestling education to use tonight and failed to read plain english. I clearly typed "we ... all", not me, not I. As far as being in charge, the only thing I claim to have any "control" over regarding wrestling is my team (as head coach) and middle school wrestling (as President of the KSWA). The feedback I receive on a consistent basis, from those of any consequence, is overwhelmingly positive. And I regularly admit that most of my successes have a lot of good people who play important roles in that success (from state titles to rankings to running a state tournament). Example 1: Go back and use those reading skills again. After you posted about your college experience, I never said those deaths had no impact on teams being dropped. I'm sure that gave those in the administration who probably already wanted to cut the team needed ammunition. I simply stated I cannot believe that was the PRIMARY issue. Example 2: I can name a couple of wrestlers off the top of my head, but I refuse to throw any kids under a bus here. I know of a couple kids who practiced daily and competed the entire middle school season with another team and competed with your team at the last couple youth state tournaments. Yes, they have been part of your club in the past, but were obviously part of another team at the time they competed with you. If it is still a mystery to you, call your brother. There could be others, but this is not against any rules so no need to make a list. And again, if you will properly read my response on the high school issue, I invited you to have a thorough discussion about that anytime you would like. Example 3: Yes, Coach Lee gave a second example. I believe others were providing the balanced side of established national events that use weight classes. Neither myself nor my team will be attending the US Army Nationals. From what I can see, you are the only person who has an issue with me sharing my opinion and have to read each post as a commandment from Mount Olympus. Last time I checked no rules were ever changed or enforced based on someones post on this site. This is simply a bunch of wrestling fans sharing thoughts and opinions.

My reading skills are fine. I'm sorry you lack comprehension skills, but "we" didn't make that post about leading this state YOU did. You can hide behind the pronoun "we" or "us" all you want, but you are the one behind the keyboard. Everything I posted is true with evidence to back it up, yet you predictably dismiss it as if you know what is best.

Coach Lee gave you an example of a large tournament that uses the 10% rule and you asked for another example. He gave you another example then you asked for others. Why does he have to keep providing you with evidence? He has much better credentials than you as a wrestler, he has a much larger network of people who coach at major schools across the country that he is in constant communication with....he simply knows what he is talking about. Yet you act as if he has to do more to earn your respect. I think the opposite is true. I think you need to earn the respect of our state before you start barking orders to people like Coach Lee and Stan Martin.

I know of 3 kids that wrestled for our youth team at state that spent most of the season wrestling up at middle school. All of which wrestled all of their youth seasons with Raiders. A middle school team started up a couple miles from where we practice after these kids had already spent years in our program. These kids are studs and want to push themselves. Are you suggesting they shouldn't wrestle both middle and youth? They wanted to finish their youth career with the team they started with and wrestle up to push themselves to get better. They, as well as their families, should be commended for that commitment. Yet this "rubs you the wrong way". It's well within the rules and quite frankly is great for our sport to have such committed families. Not to mention you brought this up in the context of a team score debate. If this bothers you so much, take their 12 team points away and we still win the state tournament by 60 points.

Since we keep going back and forth over many topics, why don't you just prove me wrong on one topic? I'd like for you to elaborate on how our kids wrestling up at middle is a problem and what your solution would be. Are you suggesting a kid who wrestled 4 years for Raiders who decided to wrestle middle at WV should wrestle for WV's youth team? If so, that is asinine. I'm waiting with bated breath for that response. Instead, I'll probably just get another sarcastic and argumentative response with no substance other than that it came from the Grand Poobah Ranger from Mount Olympus.

Concerning weight classes for individual state, I don't have a dog in the fight as I live and coach youth wrestling in Clarksville, TN. I do follow KY a little as we are on the KY/TN line right across from Hopkinsville and sometimes wrestle their tournaments. I was in the military for 22 years and my kids wrestled in New York, Georgia, Colorado and TN. We always wrestled in successful fixed weight class state tournaments. I don't see how the 10% method would prevent weight cutting. Whether it's an individual or a dual tournament, the desire to cut and wrestle smaller, more naturally lighter kids would still exist. Does KY actually do hydration testing of their youth wrestlers? Wow, if they do.

If using the 10% rule, what prevents kids from still cutting weight to make sure they are not close to the weights of their teammates? They wont know the exact weights, but they can increase their chances of seperation. Seems like fixed weight classes would take the numbers advantage out. Everyone wants large numbers but fixed weight classes would even the playing field. Also does KY even have a consolidated weigh-in or are weights sent in by coaches for their state tournament? Seems like a buddy of mine who had a son wrestle in the KY elementary state a couple of years ago said they didn't even weigh in. If no team scores will be kept anymore, I guess none of this really matters anyway.

Concerning weight classes for individual state, I don't have a dog in the fight as I live and coach youth wrestling in Clarksville, TN. I do follow KY a little as we are on the KY/TN line right across from Hopkinsville and sometimes wrestle their tournaments. I was in the military for 22 years and my kids wrestled in New York, Georgia, Colorado and TN. We always wrestled in successful fixed weight class state tournaments. I don't see how the 10% method would prevent weight cutting. Whether it's an individual or a dual tournament, the desire to cut and wrestle smaller, more naturally lighter kids would still exist. Does KY actually do hydration testing of their youth wrestlers? Wow, if they do.

If using the 10% rule, what prevents kids from still cutting weight to make sure they are not close to the weights of their teammates? They wont know the exact weights, but they can increase their chances of seperation. Seems like fixed weight classes would take the numbers advantage out. Everyone wants large numbers but fixed weight classes would even the playing field. Also does KY even have a consolidated weigh-in or are weights sent in by coaches for their state tournament? Seems like a buddy of mine who had a son wrestle in the KY elementary state a couple of years ago said they didn't even weigh in. If no team scores will be kept anymore, I guess none of this really matters anyway.

Deadlift, I appreciate your comments and understand how some don't understand the benefits of the 10% rule. Not sure how I became the spokesperson for it, but all I can tell you is it works and youth wrestling has flourished in KY (and Cincy, OH) using it. I believe the hypothetical situations you and others have mentioned simply are not happening. I suppose it COULD happen, but it's not. The results and evidence is there to support the benefits, people can choose to either believe it or not. I'm well aware of how everyone else does it (OH, PA, NY, etc.) but that doesn't necessarily make it better. These states have had youth organizations for a lot longer than us and are much more established. One quote from a youth coach from a very large program in Cincinnati, OH, "Cleveland is stuck in their ways."

I'm also aware of areas in our state that do not weigh in for Regionals. I can assure you most of our state does. It is a major problem that needs to be fixed, I agree.

Deadlift, I appreciate your comments and understand how some don't understand the benefits of the 10% rule. Not sure how I became the spokesperson for it, but all I can tell you is it works and youth wrestling has flourished in KY (and Cincy, OH) using it. I believe the hypothetical situations you and others have mentioned simply are not happening. I suppose it COULD happen, but it's not. The results and evidence is there to support the benefits, people can choose to either believe it or not. I'm well aware of how everyone else does it (OH, PA, NY, etc.) but that doesn't necessarily make it better. These states have had youth organizations for a lot longer than us and are much more established. One quote from a youth coach from a very large program in Cincinnati, OH, "Cleveland is stuck in their ways."

I'm also aware of areas in our state that do not weigh in for Regionals. I can assure you most of our state does. It is a major problem that needs to be fixed, I agree.

10% rule for President then, perhaps (being its the best thing since sliced bread) it can fix all our problems in the country.

10% rule for President then, perhaps (being its the best thing since sliced bread) it can fix all our problems in the country.

Deadlift, I appreciate your comments and understand how some don't understand the benefits of the 10% rule. Not sure how I became the spokesperson for it, but all I can tell you is it works and youth wrestling has flourished in KY (and Cincy, OH) using it. I believe the hypothetical situations you and others have mentioned simply are not happening. I suppose it COULD happen, but it's not. The results and evidence is there to support the benefits, people can choose to either believe it or not. I'm well aware of how everyone else does it (OH, PA, NY, etc.) but that doesn't necessarily make it better. These states have had youth organizations for a lot longer than us and are much more established. One quote from a youth coach from a very large program in Cincinnati, OH, "Cleveland is stuck in their ways."

I'm also aware of areas in our state that do not weigh in for Regionals. I can assure you most of our state does. It is a major problem that needs to be fixed, I agree.

You became the spokesperson as you (and as you mentioned again) the CYL are the only real advocates for this. You would fix the issue of no weigh ins by having weight classes and weigh-ins for the state tournament.

To call Cleveland stuck in their ways - you have not even began to see anyone else's point on this. The weight loss still exists in Kentucky - ask a kid - he tells you everything. 10% has not broke a code all it has done is allowed it to be easier on tournament directors. I think that each tourney director should be able to determine throughout the year on how they want to do it, but bottom line is if you want a real state tournament, run it like a real tournament of that caliber - Weight Classes and Weigh-ins.

If you are more impressed with the CYL, move to Ohio and have your kid be the city league champion, but if you want your kids to be a state champion, lets have them wrestle more than an 8 man bracket.

delete

This topic has gone from trying to get clarification to why the team scores got dropped to a battle over the 10% rule. For all of you who don't want the 10% rule, do you understand what our state brackets would look like with weight classes? Have you ever run a youth tournament in KY with weight classes? This isn't Ohio where you have hundreds of youth teams larger than our largest team. You would have 3 to 5 brackets that would take 3 days to finish and a ton with 2 to 3 kids in a weight class. You would actually reduce the overall competition for most of the weight classes.

Aside from reducing weight cutting, the 10% rule distributes the wrestlers evenly which to me is the biggest advantage of the 10% rule over fixed weight classes at the youth level, especially in developing states. If you want more wrestlers per weight class, we could easily bump it up from 8 to 16 man brackets. That wouldn't be a problem at all for most weight classes. For those who suggest there are people messing with the brackets, we could have more than one team putting them together to audit the process. I personally don't think that is a real issue, but if it would ease the minds of everyone then lets do it.

You became the spokesperson as you (and as you mentioned again) the CYL are the only real advocates for this. You would fix the issue of no weigh ins by having weight classes and weigh-ins for the state tournament.

To call Cleveland stuck in their ways - you have not even began to see anyone else's point on this. The weight loss still exists in Kentucky - ask a kid - he tells you everything. 10% has not broke a code all it has done is allowed it to be easier on tournament directors. I think that each tourney director should be able to determine throughout the year on how they want to do it, but bottom line is if you want a real state tournament, run it like a real tournament of that caliber - Weight Classes and Weigh-ins.

If you are more impressed with the CYL, move to Ohio and have your kid be the city league champion, but if you want your kids to be a state champion, lets have them wrestle more than an 8 man bracket.

JW, why are you suggesting that Coach Lee is the only one advocating this? The 10% rule was put in place by the people who started youth wrestling in this state which wasn't Coach Lee. We had weight classes before, it didn't really work for reasons I mentioned.

You became the spokesperson as you (and as you mentioned again) the CYL are the only real advocates for this. You would fix the issue of no weigh ins by having weight classes and weigh-ins for the state tournament.

To call Cleveland stuck in their ways - you have not even began to see anyone else's point on this. The weight loss still exists in Kentucky - ask a kid - he tells you everything. 10% has not broke a code all it has done is allowed it to be easier on tournament directors. I think that each tourney director should be able to determine throughout the year on how they want to do it, but bottom line is if you want a real state tournament, run it like a real tournament of that caliber - Weight Classes and Weigh-ins.

If you are more impressed with the CYL, move to Ohio and have your kid be the city league champion, but if you want your kids to be a state champion, lets have them wrestle more than an 8 man bracket.

JW, I am not the spokesperson for the 10% rule, but I am in favor of anything that helps our state. Our current bylaws have helped our youth wrestling grow every year. Why change them? What does a youth state championship mean to the resume of a wrestler? Absolutely nothing, especially in KY. I don't care if we made 100 man brackets. Do you think any college recruiter looks at that? Not a chance.

As it pertains to cutting weight. You claim weight cutting is occuring at our youth level. What evidence do you have? I coach a program with over 100 kids, none of them lose weight..not a single one. If you need proof, I can provide weigh in sheets from our first tournament to our last. We had less than 1000 participants in our state tournament, so I have a sample size of 10% to support my case. Is there an isolated case of some crazy dad/coach encouraging it? I'm sure. But that is the exception, not the norm.

The problem with youth state sounds as simple as reducing the number of participants at the state tournament. Has the idea of qualifying tournaments been discussed, districts and regionals, semistates to get to a 16 man bracket for state?

The problem with youth state sounds as simple as reducing the number of participants at the state tournament. Has the idea of qualifying tournaments been discussed, districts and regionals, semistates to get to a 16 man bracket for state?

I don't believe anyone involved with the state tournament believes there is a "problem" with the event. It has run very smoothly the last few years, it has grown incredibly, the feedback we hear from the kids and parents that go is overwhelmingly positive. It has grown into a pretty cool event over a very short amount of time.

It has been discussed to move towards qualifying tournaments, but many don't want to do that just yet. The idea is to keep the momentum going and keep getting bigger. Getting kids to experience the spectacle of the state tournament helps hook them into the sport. I think everyone agrees that eventually we will get to the point where youth with be structured just like middle and high school.

There has been a ton of negativity on these boards and I have certainly contributed to it, but the fact is, youth wrestling in KY is in great shape. All we are going through now are growing pains. I don't think we should make any major changes because what we are doing is working. I think the biggest issues we have are trying to work out the state tournament to include all areas of KY, especially WKY and find a way to get other areas of the state to grow the same way NKY has lately.

The bigger issue I see is as youth wrestlers move up to middle and high school, so do their dads who are coaching. There will always be a quick turnover of coaches and people involved with the association. Hence, we seem to fight about the same issues every 2-3 years. All of the stuff we are fighting about now, we fought about before. I say we just leave well enough alone and lets see how big we can take it until we stop growing.

Agree raider. I would defintely not characterize the youth state as a problem. Obviously, I am not a fan of the team scoring process, but the tournament itself continues to grow and seems to run a little smoother each year. It seems like there has been a lot of discussion over the last few years about qualifiers etc, but no real plans. That is obviously a major change in direction that needs to be planned and set in motion in an organized manner. I guess what I would like to see is the association (and the coaches involved) determine what the direction is that we would like to go. And develop at 5 or so year plan to make it happen. I would like to see us take the next step at the youth level. Raidercoach believes we should continue to push growth as long as we can. Both reasonable approaches. If the concensus is "if it ain't broke don't fix it", then we should leave it alone. But if growth is the focus then we should be developing ideas that promote growth and not just hope it happens or continue to rely on the big clubs to get bigger.

Sounds like the "if it aint broke dont fix it" applies here, the numbers for hs wrestling in KY continue to grow and its a result of the great work you are doing at the youth and middle school levels.

Keep it fun and keep em coming back for more!

eville - if that is the concensus, then I am on board. BUT, middle school wrestling has progressed immensely by making positive changes. I believe we have a nice balance of participation/growth and competition at the MS level.

RC; If Ranger gets to be the Grand Pooba, I want to be the Big Kahuna, since I look like a Samoan and that's close to Hawiian.

Not sure how we got sidetracked to the 10% rule and wt. classes. My advocate was for not keeping team scores.

Now I'm not like Tracy Jones or RaiderCoach, I didn't wrestle in collage (had some light tapping at my door but no one knocking it down), but decided I didn't want to dedicate my college years to wretling and I wasn't that good in the 1st place.

I have however coached for over 25 year (Not that that is a big deal either because anyone willing to sacrifice their time can do that). And I think I can express an opinion that has been well thought thru and has experience behind it.

I don't think team scores will decrease wt. loss, nor do I think it will cause teams to loose recruits or numbers. I do however believe that team scores will reduce what some of you have called "Stupid" with some coaches. Name calling and pointing fingers will decrease because the focus will be back on the kids where it belongs, team championships will not be worried about. I have seen it on all levels where the "Team" comes before the individual. This may be excepted on the college and High school level but in no way should it be excepted on the Youth level.

I don't know about the 10% rule if it deters wt. loss or not. I'm all for reducing the thought of wt. loss at the Youth and Middle school level. My question is why can't Youth and Middle go through hydration testing? All that needs to be done is put through the high school team and added to the list.

I would almost bet the National Wretling Federation would sponser this movement, or at least sponser it as a test model for the rest of the states. How great would that be? Kentucky being the frontrunner in the saftey of their Youth wrestling league. I'm not sure how to do it, there are many of you smarter than me that could possibly get this done.

Goo (Big Kahuna) out.

RC; If Ranger gets to be the Grand Pooba, I want to be the Big Kahuna, since I look like a Samoan and that's close to Hawiian.

Not sure how we got sidetracked to the 10% rule and wt. classes. My advocate was for not keeping team scores.

Now I'm not like Tracy Jones or RaiderCoach, I didn't wrestle in collage (had some light tapping at my door but no one knocking it down), but decided I didn't want to dedicate my college years to wretling and I wasn't that good in the 1st place.

I have however coached for over 25 year (Not that that is a big deal either because anyone willing to sacrifice their time can do that). And I think I can express an opinion that has been well thought thru and has experience behind it.

I don't think team scores will decrease wt. loss, nor do I think it will cause teams to loose recruits or numbers. I do however believe that team scores will reduce what some of you have called "Stupid" with some coaches. Name calling and pointing fingers will decrease because the focus will be back on the kids where it belongs, team championships will not be worried about. I have seen it on all levels where the "Team" comes before the individual. This may be excepted on the college and High school level but in no way should it be excepted on the Youth level.

I don't know about the 10% rule if it deters wt. loss or not. I'm all for reducing the thought of wt. loss at the Youth and Middle school level. My question is why can't Youth and Middle go through hydration testing? All that needs to be done is put through the high school team and added to the list.

I would almost bet the National Wretling Federation would sponser this movement, or at least sponser it as a test model for the rest of the states. How great would that be? Kentucky being the frontrunner in the saftey of their Youth wrestling league. I'm not sure how to do it, there are many of you smarter than me that could possibly get this done.

Goo (Big Kahuna) out.

Big Kahuna,

If anything I said to Ranger offended you in any way, or anyone else for that matter, then let me apologize. I certainly never said I value someone's opinion over others based on whether or not they wrestled in college or not. Its not like I claimed to be some elite college wrestler by any means because I certainly wasn't. In hindsight, I wish I had battled with him in private, but felt compelled to defend our program publically since he and others made some implications publically that I don't agree with. Then the next thing you know the vortex of this message board sucked me in and I couldn't get out and we have 8 pages of posts about a youth wrestling tournament that is 8 months away.

I was just tryng to lighten the mood, guess i didn't do a very good job.

I have not been involved with Youth "ever" so why don't Youth wrestling use hydration testing and the such?

I was just tryng to lighten the mood, guess i didn't do a very good job.

I have not been involved with Youth "ever" so why don't Youth wrestling use hydration testing and the such?

My first response would be that we can't get it to happen at the middle school level. It takes an act of congress (or more) to simply get coaches to fax me a bylaw acknowledgement form each year. Programs like ours could pull it off without a hitch (assessor on site). But clubs and other teams without the same resources (at KCD we paid a trainer to do our assessments) could have issues.

If the high school team is already doing it then there should be no issue. No matter who is doing it. I know when they 1st enacted the system I found a group that would do it free for the team.

Most of your local Sports Medicine clinics or doctors would probably dontate their time or their office's time for hydration testing. I know what you mean by not able to get anything done. Look at the high school level they can't get scores sent in to trackwrestling (your high school team included). But if a wrestler can't wrestle unless they get it done that would change things all together. People find the time to get it done.

One would think. But every season we have a handful of middle school team that are NOT allowed to compete at districts simply because their coach did not submit a bylaw form. And trust me, the officers go out of their way to help coaches get it done.